Rescuers recover more than 260 bodies at music festival attacked by Hamas
independent.co.uk
The Israeli rescue service Zaka says its paramedics removed more than 260 bodies from a music festival that came under attack by Hamas militants.
The total figure of bodies found is expected to be higher, as other paramedic teams were also working in the area and Zaka added that the bodies “haven’t all been collected yet”.
Early on Saturday morning, Hamas targeted Nova music festival, a techno rave in the desert near the border with Gaza.
Videos shared on social media and by Israeli news outlets showed dozens of festival-goers running through an open field as gunshots rang out. Many hid in nearby fruit orchards or were gunned down as they fled.
Wholesale slaughter of innocents? What a way to show Palestinians are the ones we should support.
I had been pretty much on the Palestinian side of the conflict for some time.
This attack has absolutely burnt any goodwill I had for the Palestinian cause. If Mexico attacked America in this manner, we would likely own everything south of the Gulf of California.
I cannot fathom what Hamas thought would come of this.
"Palestine" is not the one that did this. Hamas is a terrorist group, and their actions do not justify the fact that the Israeli government operates an apartheid state where people are given rights, status, and property on the basis of race, and also participates in the slaughter of innocent people.
This isn't a "whoever's worse should lose" situation. Israel commits human rights violations and Hamas is a terrorist group.
Hamas is the governing body of Palestine.
It was Palestine who did this.
Strictly speaking, it's the governing body of Gaza, which hasn't held elections in well over a decade. The West Bank is governed by the party Fatah, which is much less militant.
There is, however, the awkward truth that the West Bank has also not held elections in a long time, precisely because Hamas would probably win them.
At last count, Hamas had something like a 75 percent approval rating in Gaza.
The support among all Palestinians is just over 50 percent.
Only 14 percent support the opposition party.
Being in their position, I think I'd also support the only group fighting for my liberty and rights, even if they are morally tainted.
By this logic all Iranians support their current Islamist government, which everyone and their mother knows to not be true.
Do you support everything your government does?
That's like saying when Republicans do something stupid. It's America. It's not. There's far more going on. And that's just disingenuous.
The lack of nuance displayed around here sometimes is truly disturbing.
"Them versus us" mentality is very prominent in modern society and it's only gotten worse. Not just in the context of conflicts, it's a general problem.
Hamas is the governing body of Gaza. They don't control the West Bank where the majority of Palestinians live.
I hate the phrasing "terrorist group" here. Not because what happened here wasn't an atrocity, but because people generally refuse to call state-backed violence "terrorist" violence. The word terrorism is incredibly broad, easily describing a ton of things Israel does. Yet, we refuse to call them a terrorist organization.
Israel slaughtered hundreds of protesters 4 years ago in Gaza.
Israel and Egypt have been blockading the Gaza strip in violation of the GCIV since 2007.
In 2014, a triple-homicide was committed. Israel claimed it was Hamas, and arrested hundreds of Palestinians. Hamas sent rockets into Israel, killing 2 people, and Israel initiated Operation Protective Edge, killing thousands of Palestinians.
Not to mention the entire Israel-Palestine conflict can be traced back about 100 years, where imperialist Britain endorsed the idea of a Jewish homeland in Palestine in the Balfour Declaration. Eventually leading to the formation of Israel in the late 40s and the subsequent ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, forcing nearly a million natives to move to make way for Israel.
"terrorism" is politically charged language with the intent of making us sympathize with a certain side. Of course we'll side with the "Israel state" and against the "Hamas terrorist group". The language used to describe these groups already prescribes how we should view them. Western media will never describe Israel's atrocities as terrorist actions, so people will dismiss the slaughter of tens or even hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians as "just war".
We shouldn't conflate the people of Isreal with the extremist State of Isreal, we shouldn't conflate the people of Palestine with Hamas. Atrocities have been committed on both sides and each one is an atrocity, but the fact remains that the Palestinian people are living under an apartheid and therefore should be supported despite acts committed by extremists in it's name. This situation shouldn't be reduced to a simplistic one-sided team sport. Palestine still needs liberating.
Hamas isn't a rational actor fighting for a free Palestine; their one and only goal - literally written into their charter - is to eradicate every Jew from the land by force.
Every Jew they kill is a victory for them; there's nothing more to it.
The us doesn't hold Mexico or Mexicans in an open air concentration camp we regularly demolish buildings in with war munitions for simple allegation with no due process.
I'm going to bet it's going to come out that this is essentially Iran and other countries sending mercs to act as Hamas just as the last major offensive was.
The native Americans would beg to differ about how the United States treated the people who were here before them.
I'm talking about Mexico today currently as was the person I replied to, and yes as a native I'm aware how shitty the us still treat its native populaces.
True. The concentration camps on and near the US-Mexican border aren't open air.
There was already an article out that said Iran helped hamas.
Tehran is saying they didn’t do it. But articles from wsj and the like have said they did help.
There is no justification for what they've done. Senseless violence breeds senseless violence, but we can still blame those who do violence. Everyone subjected to Israel's abuse isn't killing civilians.
At this point it seems clear to me that Hamas is just using the Palestinians and doesn't actually care about them.
You're arguing a point I never made. Point to where I excuse the behavior, I'll wait.
Duh, they were an ultra religious sect Israel allowed to exist because they were actively fighting the same enemy, secular Palestinians.
Apologies. I didn't mean to suggest you were excusing it, but my wording certainly implies I did. I just wanted to say that observing the geopolitical cause is different from excusing the murderers -- which you've just pointed out.
Israel's far right government and Hamas have an unholy union where they hurt Israeli and Palestinian civilians alike. Too many people conflate this with all Israelis and all Palestinians though :/
Bingo. Most Israeli aren't zionists but all accounts, most Palestinians aren't terrorists or even Muslim at this point iirc though frankly the religion is just an excuse to be shitty on all sides. Christians need an Israeli controlled holy land for their end days to happen, Islam wants all of the holy land to exclude Jews especially but Christians also, Israel wants all of Israel because a book says so. It's fucking absurd.
Can you link where that was determined to be the case in their last offensive? Would genuinely like to read this if true.
Dont forget the paraded naked woman that was spit on by people. Hamas are savages who are funded by Iran
Had it been attacks on only military targets, that’d be one thing. I understand that this has been a long, drawn-out conflict and Israel has killed a large number of civilians themselves and have, meter-by-meter, been taking more land away from the Palestinians (essentially committing slow-motion genocide). I get that, Israel the country isn’t innocent, BUT civilians should never be considered legitimate targets by either side in the conflict. Hamas isn’t helping their cause any with these attacks.
Hamas is not Palestine. There's why they've done this. The attack and all their actions just hurt Palestinians, and they don't care. They use Palestinians regularly as living hostages.
This was an Iranian funded terrorist group, not a Palestinian liberation group. They claim to help the latter, but this attack makes it obvious they don't give a shit about Palestinians, they just sent to hurt Israelis. Everyone is better off if the group can be destroyed.
I'm starting to wonder if that is the point. Groups like Hamas thrive on anger and conflict.
I'm both glad and sorry that this is what made you understand, hamas was like that ever since u remember myself, Israel never start those clashes. They always shoot hiding behind kindergartens, women and elderly people while the shoot thousands of missiles.
The only difference between previous ones to this one is that the caught us off guard
so 0.05% of the population can make you change your political view about 2 millions people(plus people in west bank because fuck em right?)
then you never supported a free palestine
Hamas isn't Palestine.
Palestine could sure help get rid of them if they wanted to.
Overthrow the violent military group holding them hostage?
That's had Israel' tactic approval to act as preferred enemy, which has international support?
Good fucking luck.
Israel could sure stop invading if they wanted to.
In Gaza, they did in the mid 2000s. They even evicted all Jewish settlers and settlements, some at gunpoint; in an effort to secure peace.
And what government body do you propose is "Palestine". This is why Israel is an apartheid state.
HOW???
Remind me how many Palestinians support Hamas and its ideology. You cannot make this comparison. Nothing Israel ever did comes near these levels of brutality.
Bruh, ain't no way you're this ignorant.
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ignorant
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It's always those pesky Palestinians doing the slaughtering! For 75 years!
That's how they've been taking more and more land from Israel and they even build a gigantic illegal wall to box those poor Israelis in and stop them being able to leave freely! And with their military backing and funding from giant powerhouses in the west, those poor Israelis don't stand a chance, it's about time they fought back and stood up for themselves! They should defend their homes just like Ukraine!
Wait...
This is a chart that shows one thing only: Israel has the stronger military.
It doesn't say a thing about who attempted to kill more civilians, and who took steps to avoid civilian deaths. It doesn't say anything about who has made concessions for peace, and who has walked away from peace deals for almost a century.
If you think this chart shows that Israel is the bad guy, you would absolutely shit yourself if you saw a similar chart comparing the US and Nazi Germany.
Yes, all revolutions in the history of the world are famous for rising against evil teenagers who were oppressing them.
And exactly how does your argument justify these atrocities? This is whataboutism pur sang. Don't get me wrong, the atrocities Israel has carried out are equally appalling, but that doesn't justify what happened at that festival. This will likely only weaken the support the Palestinians have in the west.
It doesn't justify the atrocities, but to immediately drop your support of the Palestinian people due to the acts of a militant group (likely orchestrated by Iran) is just dumb.
I just think people talking about killing civilians at a music festival being an atrocity (it is!) were probably really quiet about the regular civilian casualties caused by Israel year after year. In 12 years, the UN counted 5,590 deaths. That's not 5,590 dead terrorists, but people are acting like the atrocities just started now. I'm very much willing to say "what about", not because it should make people think this one isn't horrible, but because they really should answer "what about the other ones you ignored".
And one doesn't even need to go backward. Israel's already racking up civilian casualties, and you can bet there's going to be some people who want to keep going until the Palestinian number is much higher than the Israeli number.
Plenty of people, within Israel and outside, care quite a lot about those deaths and also consider them tragedies. You'll remember that Netanyahu isn't exactly an uncontroversial figure within Israel.
That's why this has been such an incredibly frustrating and disappointing series of events, because any possibility of peace has been thoroughly extinguished now, and Palestinian citizens are going to suffer even more. Hamas of course knew this going into it, and didn't care because its aim has never been peace for Palestinians, but rather the extermination of all Jews within Israel (as explicitly stated in its founding charter).
Both Netanyahu and Hamas are probably riding a nice high right now. Both of their political positions improve the more people die on both sides.
There may be a real rally around the flag effect, but there's a lot of anger at Netanyahu on the massive military and intelligence failures that made this possible. He may be able to stick around for this conflict, but he's probably toast afterwards.
Likud's entire thing has always been that they're the ones that can be trusted to keep Israelis safe. That view is now completely shattered.
Do you think they are going to elect a more moderate government to keep them safe?
Perhaps there's a glimmer of hope then. If a less conservative and radical party takes control, maybe we'll see an independent Palestinian state that's allied with Israel and jointly fights Hamas.
Unfortunately that's very unrealistic :/. We'll probably see an even more radical conservative group take power, and make us think Netanyahu was a saint in comparison. :/
That assumes that there is a sizable portion of Palestinians that want to fight Hamas, and there's sadly no guarantee of that.
I know, but I'd like to be optimistic. I'd like to think that becoming an independent state in exchange for helping hunt Hamas would be more than agreeable to them.
It saves me from the moral quandary -- what if you're right? What if the people generally support the group :/? I would need evidence to believe it, but I don't know then. It's pretty difficult to be neutral about them and not have a thought either way.
Does the graph you just dismissed not make it clear they are absolutely not "equally appalling?"
Seems to me by the numbers they are far more appalling.
Edited to add: It does not justify the most recent attack, but it seems bizarre to pretend this is "both sides bad" when it's "both sides bad, but one side objectively does a lot more bad"
It's because the media is super biased in the UK and US, I assume. The reporting on the BBC has been all about how bad Palestine have been acting but nothing about what Israel is doing to them.
OF COURSE attacking a music festival is bad. But in context, I'm not fucking surprised they're lashing out, and with more context, I think most people would feel pretty extremist if they were being killed and pushed out of their homes constantly for almost 100 years.
But hey the UK/US has to pretend nothing ireal does is wrong because they created this mess.
Just in case it wasn't clear, I completely agree with you.
This is only true because Israel is good at stopping attacks, not because Hamas isn't trying.
Graph intentional attacks targeted at civilians and you'll get a very different picture. Personally, if someone tried to murder my family but failed, I wouldn't find them blameless just because they didn't succeed.
Also missing from the picture is that for decades Hamas has been using Palestinian civilians as human shields, building bombs and rockets in the houses where children live, shooting rockets from inside schools and hospitals.
Hamas gave Israel the choice of letting it's own children die, and not shooting back, or shooting back and Knowing that no matter how hard they tried (and they try pretty fucking hard) that they wouldn't be able to avoid civilian deaths.
And ALL of this was because Hamas was banking on people in the west doing exactly what this gullible sap is doing: assuming that Israel is the monster.
The chart shows military might. It doesn't show intent. It doesn't show who tried to avoid bloodshed. It doesn't show who ignited conflict after conflict.
A similar chart showing civilian deaths in WWII would show the US killed way more Nazi civilians than vice versa. Would you be arguing that the US was the bad guy in that war?
Depends, Which one was invading another country and claiming land?
Nah man you can't be really doing a Nazi apology. Fucking incredible
LOL I'm doing the opposite 🤣
Let's see a chart of the number of attempted murders of civilians from each side. That'll paint a pretty different picture.
Tell me, because we both know that the Israeli casualty number is only low because Israel is good at protecting its citizens and not because Hamas isn't trying to kill as many Israelis as it can, do you really think the situation would be better if Hamas was more successful at killing Israelis?
Of course not, I think they're both fucking ridiculous fighting over a place named in their own personal fairytale.
One side being stronger doesn't make the things they do right.
And to the exact same point, one side being less successful at killing citizens doesn't make them right either.
Keep those downvotes coming, Zionists. No matter how much you sweaty virtue signalers try to ‘own’ people on the internet, it doesn’t change the fact that Israel caged an animal, tortured it, and are now trying to put it down because it bit back.
You and I both know that equating the entire population of Palestine to an Iraq/Qatar-funded extremist group is entirely wrong, but whatever justifies the wholesale slaughter of thousands over the years I guess. Stop pretending to care about Israeli citizens so you can feel good about watching Palestinians die.
"I used to have support for the Native Americans, but then a tribe massacred an outpost on the land that was slowly being carved from them by colonizers. Now I've lost all goodwill for their struggle"
The indigenous, oppressed peoples proceed to get wiped out and the colonizing states take over the entire land mass
This type of violence does not need to celebrated. It should be mourned as tragic. Its perpetrators condemned.
But so many are applying fairness or rules to a conflict that has neither.
If you create the conditions for war and terrorism, do not be surprised when war and terrorism come.
You can still condemn the terrorists -- 99% of the people in those conditions have chosen not to go on a murderous rampage of civilians.
I agree though, by and large. Hamas is the problem here, not Palestinians, and Hamas should be condemned by everybody. Its hard to say that they're trying to help Palestinians when they do attacks like this, knowing full well they are associated with Palestine. The attack has certainly changed my perspective about them operating out of civilian buildings. They're using Palestinians as living hostages.
It would be in everybody's best interest for a global coalition to root them out and Israel to get a non apartheid government. But we all know none of that is going to happen.
actually there was ~1000 attacckers coming from gaza thats 0.05% of the population
There's a difference between attacking unarmed civilians at a music festival and war. The terrorists should always be condemned, and you're painting with far too broad of a brush here.
There's a difference between freedom fighters and murderers.
I agree with your main point. The actions of the Hamas are abhorrent. But many here are equating it with the will of all Palestinians and that's simply not true.
I don't understand how these acts, which clearly will not help Palestinians, can be seen as the something they all would want.
Last time I checked, only fascists believe "the will of an ethnic group" is even a thing.
I hope you're one of the first to condemn Israel when they kill at least 10x as many Palestinian civilians in retaliation for this.
You know, in addition to how many more Palestinians civilians they've already killed.
Absolutely. Israel is the definition of a terrorist state. Imagine nuance
What do you think raping and massacring people at a music festival is going to do?
That clearly isn't "fighting back". It's not war, its not even terrorism. They aren't achieving any sort of win, or working towards independence.
This is honestly a disgusting comment.
Nothing, just cause more suffering. But this isn't a bad guy vs good guy argument. The point that's being made is that extremism tends to be a product of its environment.
Please note that this is not an anti-Israel line of arguing.
Conditions in Gaza are terrible and many people have lost loved ones during their lives there. It creates an environment where extremism can flourish. It's not a certainty, but the probability is just much higher in environments that are severely deprived.
The actions of Hamas are inexcusable, and Israel will surely want to bring them to justice. But after that it's time to acknowledge that if conditions in Gaza are kept as poor as they are, the chances of this type of violence happening again are almost guaranteed. It's also in the interest of Israel to allow and facilitate improved conditions in Gaza.
There's a large population oppressed. A large part of that population suffers in silence, a small part of that population suffers and raises protest, a smaller part of that population becomes politically savvy travels the world and raises awareness at the geopolitical stage, a smaller part of that population is so angry they just lash out and do whatever damage they can to their oppressors.
This pattern is ingrained in the human condition. We've seen it countless times. In many struggles. If we condemn an entire population by the acts of a few, we turn the entire population into the most violent actors.
So the question shouldn't be do you support Hamas or do you support the Israeli state, that's a false dichotomy. The question should be what options are we giving the Palestinian people that are better than supporting Hamas?
Well, we definitely didn't give them the option to keep their homes that they got kicked out of
This is exactly why they're so surprised. They thought that Palestinians should just roll over and take it up the ass, like god intended, the natural order of things.
There's only an issue when the oppressed fight back.
well put.
oppress a population until they fight back and then yell terrorism
Hamas just shot every Palestinian in the dick.
Hamas...Iran... Russia just shot every Palestinian in the dick.It is really convenient for Russia that this is now happening. Hamas is not gaining anything from this attack. They knew they would not hold the land and it would be just a chaos attack and that Israel will retaliate with full force. So why did they do it? Is maybe they are backed by Iran and Iran decided now would be a good time to use their useful idiots to attack? But what would Iran gain from it? Is it maybe Iran is buddy buddy with Putin and he could use the distraction and would be able to pit opinions in the west against each other and would continue his plan to divide the west?
The Hamas are just useful idiots. There was no plan. It was instigated by some other group that couldn't care less who is going do die in the end on either side, as it is not their countryman. It was either a good time for iran to instigate this for free or they were smart enough to get concessions from Russia to play out this act that really played into Russian cards.
Russia loves destabilizing this region. They support the Syrian regime and use the crisis of Syrian refugee to invite them for a university-opportunity to Moscovia to then put them in busses and send them through Belarus to the polish border. The images that they produce that was on the "Imigrant crisis overwhelming europe" is then played back to the right wing parties in Europe who are - suprise - mostly pro russian. Russia is actively destabilizing regions and holding them in disarray and encouraging further conflicts to create refugee crisis as close to Europe as possible. The profit immensly from destabilizing those regions and the public discourse that entails of that in the west.
I think Russia is a scourge on humanity and the geopolitical entity (not the people) should be destroyed by covert means, but your take is nothing more than conjecture.
The head of the Arab League went to Moscow to discuss this conflict.
https://www.reuters.com/world/arab-league-chief-heads-moscow-talks-after-hamas-attack-israel-2023-10-08/
There is definitely a lot of smoke that Putin’s calling the shots here.
Yeah, you are probably right, this pushes the news away from Ukraine, and of course Hamas is more than happy to help. Not defending Israel either, the whole region is a mess, but Russia meddling is really not helpful.
And they're happy to do it. What's the point of Hamas if neither Israelis nor Palestinians are dying? Both at the same time is their ideal environment.
Exactly, it’s why the Israeli military funded them through the 80s and 90s. If the moderates won then they wouldn’t give them excuses to glass hospitals and gun down children.
The most accurate take in this thread 👆
Turns out hitting the music festival was a terrible idea, because it absolutely turned everyone against them.
except half the morons around here who thought this was justified
inclkuding, apparently, the lemmy development team...a surprising development if you ask me.
Explain?
lemmy developers appear to be pro-death squad. not sure what else to say.
Is there a source of them claiming that?
The video that the NYT put out today of armed terrorists in technicals mowing down civilians from the road took years off my life. They rolled into Sderot and just shot anything that moved, which was mostly civilians along with firefighters and police.
Unfortunately, they also managed to kill a decent number of German, Thai, American, French, and other foreign nationals. Ironically, they also executed Israelis living in communes who were pressing for peace for Palestinians after the horrors of the 2014 war.
Ugh, fuck Hamas and everyone that supports them.
So completely overlooking the overlying political situation and just thinking about this incident - it's fuckin horrible.
I've been at a whole lot of techno parties back in the day and just imagining these events triggers a real wince in my soul. Remember being off your head at a really good party with your mates and your partner and then imagine this shit happening. I mean, a fuckin rave is pretty much the opposite of a military target.
I'm thinking there's a lot of criticisms to make on both sides of this conflict and a lot of comments here are focusing on that and overlooking the fucking horror of this incident right here.
I lived in Paris when they attacked the Bataclan and several other places. We almost went to a restaurant that got shot up but decided on another one at the last minute. When the owner heard about the attacks he made us leave, which infuriated my GF who was scared out of her mind, but I figured the assholes were long gone and police were everywhere by that time so I reassured her and we calmly walked back home.
But when I got home and heard about the Bataclan attack, I broke down like a fucking baby. I love live music, it's like a major reason to live for me, and imagining these people having a blast, unwinding after a stressful week, and then the absolute horror that broke loose was too much for me.
Yeah lot of these people were probably just coming down in the early morning. Surreal and horrifying to imagine being there.
You know I read these threads and they remind me so much of Reddit. And now I don't know if reddit really got shittier or if the shittiness was always there it was just ignorable. These comments are definitely reddit tier and that's sad for the fediverse.
People need to realize reddit and social media is shitty because people are inherently shitty. The people on lemmy are no different.
People don't change just because technology is different.
Yeah, that's crazy - I wonder if there is some commonality we aren't considering here?
It's almost as if people use the internet to share their opinions.
What's that mean? Toxic comments or bad takes?
Yes.
Just guessing, but that shouldn't be surprising. I'd imagine the most opinionated people are the ones who took offense to Reddits changes and bailed out for those reasons. And now those opinionated people saturate the comments.
Not every case of course. Like RIF died for me, and I just decided I wasn't really enjoying Reddit and should try somewhere else. That's probably a decent chunk of people here as well. I feel like those have a higher probability of just reading and not commenting though
I'm here for the same reason. RiF was reddit to me.
Same, at least for mobile. Admittedly I still use old.reddit with RES (and uBlock). But I'm only here because RiF died.
Worldnews was always really bad on reddit, I was also surprised to see that true for lemmy too. Lots of different world views and biases I guess.
I don't mind different views, I mind deeply stupid and uniformed opinions stated as fact.
I'm using Boost for both Reddit and Lemmy, and as a quick glance on my phone they look identical. To be honest if I was to open a random thread and look at the comments I wouldn't be able to tell where I am.
I'm not sure what you guys mean when you say that Lemmy feels different. If feels smaller but the same, in the good and bad.
I think the Internet got shittier, and it's just inescapable.
or maybe western society as a whole got shittier and people are dumber
There's a lot of commenting from westerners about this, but it's not going to matter. Israel is going to wipe out Hamas. Hopefully the regular Palestinians survive with out much damage. And in the future they have a better life.
But it is very clear the people of Israel are very united in what they're need to do and how to do it.
Honest question: to Israelis that want to see this, what does this mean? forcing the Palestinians out completely to Jordan and Lebanon?
don't get me wrong, it'd be awesome if you could just magically zap the terrorists, but that's not reality. so what's the end game with this kind of rhetoric?
I just want to be clear, I'm stating my opinion, no one else's, it might be the consensus in Israel, it might be not. I've always been against a lot of my country and military actions, especially against Palestinians, never saw them as enemies, even as a soldier I spoke out if something seemed wrong to me, even in operation protective edge I've been told that I shouldn't live here if I care so much about the Palestinian, this was told to me by a soldier that I was carrying food and water for, what I'm saying is that I'm not some right wing hateful nut job when I say: I don't give a shut anymore, I don't give a shit where the gazan will go, I don't give a shit if they don't have food, I don't give a shit about any of this, In 24 hours, three friends have lost half of their families, two friends have been held hostages, one friend kidnapped to Gaza, presumably dead. As much as a pacifist I tried to be my whole life, right now I want nothing but the sea to be painted red by the blood of the people who did this and supported it, and quite honestly, when this is all over, I want our elected officials to be rounded up, faced against the wall and be shot.
I am sorry you lost several loved ones. I can't imagine what that must be like.
Hopefully, while grieving, you won't be stuck in anger for much longer. The people that you have lost wouldn't want children to pay the price for your country's revenge.
Of course you want Hamas to be brought to justice, but there are many people like you and I in Gaza that are just trying to live a life free of violence. Hamas might kill indiscriminately, but they are a terrorist/radical group. A country must not sink to their level, especially a democratic one.
Nothing will make it easier for Hamas to find new recruits than large numbers of people in Gaza who are grieving their lost ones: and so the cycle of violence continues.
Beautifully said
Didn't the IDF already kill the 1,500 or so terrorists who did this?
What reason do we have to believe that the thousands of people who are currently getting bombed had anything to do with this at all, beyond having the misfortune of living in Gaza?
The fact that hostages are in Gaza, so obviously a significant number of the raiders were able to make it back with those poor folks in tow
The current estimates are between 100 and 150 hostages. A single armed person can transport several unarmed hostages. They'll be tied up and consist mostly of people who don't put up much resistance (since those people tend to get killed rather than taken hostage).
Even if we're generous and assume one guard per hostage, that's at most 150 terrorists that made it back to Gaza.
Just answering to the first question: As of today, according to Israeli media, that number is quite off.
I haven't been able to find new numbers today. A bunch of articles restating the number of Israelis killed by Hamas and a few talking about estimates for numbers killed in Gaza but I haven't found updated info on how many of the Hamas terrorists died in Israel.
Well, the fact that most of them went back to Gaza makes me doubt that previously quoted number.
In any case, I hope Hamas gets an obliterating hit and can't recover, and that Israel remembers that not all Gaza is Hamas, so this is over as soon as possible with no more innocent lives lost.
They did? I hadn’t read that. Do you know where I can learn more about that?
Don't remember right now. Been reading a couple of Israeli news sites in English, al-Jazeera, and some other news sites, so whatever I say to you now might be misguided. Anyway, as far as I recall right now it wasn't speculation.
Good, now think about how the Palestinians felt from the beginning.
https://web.archive.org/web/20220526214443/https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-07-05/ty-article-magazine/.premium/how-israel-systematically-hides-evidence-of-1948-expulsion-of-arabs/0000017f-f303-d487-abff-f3ff69de0000
If you want you can read more about the Deir Yassin massacre, Abu Shusha massacre, Lyda and Ramle massacres, Al Dawayima massacre, and lastly but definitely not least the Sabra and Shatila Massacre.
There's gems such as:
and
and
and
and I am not going to even go into what happened in Sabra and Shatila. Just know that just like in Deir Yassin, Zionists and Jewish extremists reneged on peace pacts. The reason why both of these massacres were so devastating was explicitly because the Palestinian people demilitarized themselves in exchange for peace and co-existence. However, we all know how that played out.
Now, the current people of Israel flourish off the atrocities of the Zionists and Jewish extremists. Rather than recognizing the war crimes as they were, many try to re-write history and revere war criminals as war heroes. For some, that is not even necessary because they believe that Palestinian life is below them. The verbiage that many have used to describe Palestinians is very akin to how other ethnocentric societies have described racial minorities in the past, present, or future. As for you, you stand not only on the shoulders of giants, but on the countless bodies of those who were massacred, tortured, and raped. If you cared for justice, then would it not be right to give back? If you knew that just by living in Israel, you are perpetuating the status quo, then would it not be right to at least balance it out through some form of disruption?
But no, ignoring history, you now call for violence. As we all know, violence begets violence.
And much of the world does not give a shit about you or any other Israeli either. You guys have murdered far far far far far more Palestinians, innocent palestinians at that, then hamas has killed Israelis. And thats exactly why these attacks happened, thats exactly why your freinds have lost their families and been taken hostage. You yourself and every other person in Israel are to blame for this and supported this. If you want the blood to flow start with your own
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't Hamas the political body that is in control of the Gaza strip?
They sent a military force to go kill civilians. I don't know how much of Israel's motivation is to take the Gaza strip back and move Palestinian civilians around, but killing that many civilians has definitely put Hamas into "fuck around and find out" territory. At the very least I would expect that Israel will not stop until Hamas is no longer a political entity in Gaza.
Well hopefully a new government, but who knows
Nuremberg scenario if we're lucky.
It turned Germany from antisemitism central into Europe's strongest economy and democracy, at least up until the AfD started trying to weasel the nazi shit back in.
Problem is this isn't the allies making the call here, it's Israel, who's a lot more interested in just crippling Gaza industrially and militarily to the point that rocket assembly and launching become an impossibility, so either absolutely flattening the place, or permanently occupying the place until Fatah or another faction that's not as batshit insane as Hamas are able to pretend to be in control while basically being a paper government where Israel's "security concerns" clash with Gaza's sovereignty.
Yeah, Hamas basically destroyed themselves with this shit. The rest of the world watched their warcriming and said "You know, perhaps these aren't the folks that peace can be reached with, go nuts Israel, bomb the shit out of them."
Who's gonna stand up for Hamas at this point, russia and iran? pfft.. get fucked. Any plausible case for their victimhood got lost when they went down this road.
So far the Israeli government under Netanyahu has mostly done things to strengthen Hamas, a more radical and violent (but controlled by the vastly stronger Israeli military, or so they thought) group in power in Gaza was deemed beneficial since it prevents the formation of "reasonable", anti-violent advocates for Palestinian liberation. Didn't really work out that well I guess.
No it didn't, and the Israelis know it.
Based on the last 50+ years of history of conflict between these 2, I can't be optimistic that your hopes will come true.
I expect to see reports of wholesale slaughter of Palestinian civilians. You know, normal every day stuff for the IDF.
Unlike the 40 babies killed in kfar aza. Thats a totally sane thing to do. Did i mention some of them were beheaded?
"What regular Palestinians? Those doctors and children were clearly armed militants" - the IDF probably.
I heard an Israeli coworker claim that the IDF is the worlds most moral army. With blind-belief like that, they are gonna commit some crazy atrocities.
I've read Hamas specifically runs military operations in civilian buildings like hospitals as a meat shield, is that not true?
This is a claim regularly made by the IDF. It seems fairly likely and I haven't seen any evidence to the contrary.
I'm not sure how different that is from deliberately putting civilian settlements in a hotly contested buffer zone though.
The reports I've read claim that around 1,000 Hamas terrorist entered Israel. The IDF claims to have recovered the bodies of about 1,500 terrorists inside Israel. Given that this is an active conflict, it's not surprising that the numbers don't line up but they're of the same order of magnitude.
Since Hamas has hostages it's clear that at least some of those terrorists made it back to Gaza. It's also clear that the IDF has, by now, killed the vast majority of the terrorists who carried out these acts.
So who is currently being targeted by IDF ordinance?
My guess is the operation being carried out is to close the border with Egypt to establish full access control in and out of Gaza. Any other ops being carried out will either be hostage rescue, targeted attempts at black bagging participants and leaders of the attacks, or causing general mayhem to keep Hamas from being able to coordinate with itself for long enough to mount a counteroperation.
The end goal will be twofold, 1) gain customs control over all points of entry to the strip to neuter Hamas' ability to keep importing rockets and the parts to make their own, 2) sweep the strip for the leaders of the attack for as public and humiliating a comupence as can be legally dropped on them, and probably beyond that too. This attack put a serious black eye on Israel's hawks claiming they're the faction for tighter security that will keep the Israeli people safe, Bibi is probably seeing enough red that it's a sign of officials intervening against his worst reflexes that we're not witnessing a Srebenica scenario in Gaza right now.
They may move to tactics like that eventually but for now it's artillery and airstrikes. Netanyahu threatened to bomb Gaza to rubble and it looks like he's carrying that out.
I don't see anything targeted about the current retaliation; what we're hearing and seeing now is most consistent with a scorched earth policy.
considering gaza is 40% kids under 14..... children.
If Israel don't like Hamas they shouldn't have created them
This is the best summary I could come up with:
Early on Saturday morning, Hamas targeted Nova music festival, a techno rave in the desert near the border with Gaza.
Videos shared on social media and by Israeli news outlets showed dozens of festival-goers running through an open field as gunshots rang out.
British citizen Jake Marlowe, 26, a carpenter by trade, was employed as a security guard at the Nova music festival just six kilometres east of Gaza, which was in full swing Saturday when Hamas launched the biggest attack on Israel in decades.
He is among dozens of festival attendees who are missing, kidnapped or presumed dead, multiple witnesses and family members told The Independent
Videos from Gaza started appearing online on Saturday, including one showing a young woman Noa Argamani being abducted by Hamas militants as she rode with her boyfriend on a motorcycle.
On Sunday, another video showed the mutilated body of one woman, identified as German tattoo artist Shani Louk by her friends, being paraded around in her underwear around Gaza.
The original article contains 473 words, the summary contains 166 words. Saved 65%. I'm a bot and I'm open source!
Absolutely horrfying. This whole thing is just so dapressing.
Meanwhile, lemmy.ml mods are worried about banning people for pointing out that US revolutionaries didn't indiscriminately murder families. This is the fediverse's mask off moment.
How does one bad instance that has been full of tankies for quite sometime make this the “fediverse mask off moment”???
If you browse all from a federated instance, you will see plenty of lemmy.ml threads filled with all manner of disgusting appetite for cruelty, because the mods are banning any and all pushback. Whether or not you choose to acknowledge it, this will be (and to a large extent already is) associated with the fediverse sooner or later, considering it is the "main" dev instance, and one of the largest communities. This has just been a particularly egregious example of - again - the main, high profile dev instance, pretty openly tolerating horrific things while removing even the most mild, reasonable dissent.
If you don't believe me, just browse the mod log for the past few hours.
Note that "the Fediverse" consists of multiple platforms. Not just Lemmy. So no, this will not be a Fediverse mask-off moment. Perhaps a Lemmy mask-off moment, but definitely not the entire Fediverse.
Exactly. Mastodon is doing just fine, depending on who you follow.
If you check the modlog for this community on LW, you may notice a removal of a top post for the mediabiasfactcheck of the source... which apparently places it too close to center with no failed fact checks, or something.
100% - the developers themselves seem to be openly pro-terrorist. How can any person support lemmy, at all, if that is the case?
I am very disappointed in lemmy today.
Isn't this supposed to work with up votes and down votes?
And yet, they and instances like Hexbear are still federated on certain instances.
Nobody holds yiur hand and tells you who to hate. You have to grow up and exercise your own critical skills to work out who you agree and disagree with. Hexbear and Lemmygrad are tutorial-level obvious. Lemmy.ml started more normal but seems to have drifted their way.
So get on an instance that more or less aligns with your views and dig out the block button. I use Sync on my phone and it lets you block an instance entirely.
I posted a comment about how the kids are getting the worst of it all and got deleted.
A quick scroll of the comments doesn't provide the answer as to why they thought this music festival was a good idea, especially considering that it's located at the border near Gaza. Furthermore, how did Israel not see this coming and take extra security measures to protect them?
Don't worry their next festival is gonna be in the DMZ between North and South Korea, should be a real banger.