NY bill would require a criminal history background check for the purchase of a 3D printer
nysenate.gov
NY bill would require a criminal history background check for the purchase of a 3D printer::Requires a criminal history background check for the purchase of a three-dimensional printer capable of creating firearms; prohibits sale to a person who would be disqualified on the basis of criminal history from being granted a license to possess a firearm.
A tube capable of firing a projectile isn't hard to make though. Maybe they should require a criminal history background check to go to the hardware store too.
Sir, do you have a license for that power drill?
Not everybody is the guy who killed Shinzo Abe.
Don’t you mean Tetsuya Yamagami?
The first of his name,the leading seaman, the destroyer of moonies, Saint Blunderbuss I. Long may his name reign. Long may he live.
But the point is that literally anyone could be.
A simple gun is just a tube with one end closed off. You can make a blackpowder musket for about 30 bucks at a hardware store. They even sell the lighters to set off the charge.
3d printers also make shitty guns, for the most part. Unless you’re paying hundreds of dollars for the rest of the firearm, all your making is the part that holds everything together. If you’re not using real firearm parts, a solid plastic gun is largely useless.
Are they going to require background checks to operate a CNC machine too? Cause that’s probably gonna cripple the manufacturing industry.
Classic pro-gun community, rushing to brigade a gun-related post with pre-prepared talking points.
"Why bother fixing gun laws that clearly fail to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people when you can just 3D print a gun?"
*someone makes a move to stop dangerous people 3D printing guns*
"Why bother preventing dangerous people 3D printing guns when you can just buy a bit of pipe at the hardware store?"
Criminals and domestic terrorists overwhelmingly just go to a store and buy a gun. The pro-gun community is fine with this.
For the minority that can't, straw purchases, gun show loopholes and poorly secured firearms give them much better access to safer, more reliable guns than 3D printing does. The pro-gun community is fine with this too.
A tiny fraction of crimes involve 3D printed gun parts and I'm not aware of any domestic terrorism to use any. Nevertheless, somebody could in theory print parts for a fully automatic weapon that would potentially be reliable enough for a mass shooting.
So how many crimes are being comitted with a piece of old pipe?
I know self-absorbed, gun-owning, 300lbs men pretending they'd be useful in a militia want to angrily hammer out a comment along the lines of "WHAT ABOUT THAT ASSASSINATION IN JAPAN YOU CUCK".
But the one example you can cite without googling, from every single country with gun control was clearly dogshit barely worked.
It would be a massive improvement if American criminals were forced to use home made firearms that significantly increased the price, difficulty to obtain and the danger to themselves using it.
But the pro-gun community objects by walking down a list of bullshit excuses because they can't just say "I'd rather people were shot than I was inconvienced".
It's crazy how the first thing you did was complain about people with premade talking points rushing to brigade a post, yet you're in here posting walls of text under everyone who is pointing out the logical inconsistencies of banning unregulated 3d printers but not other hardware related purchases.
Even stranger is, I can't figure out what you're upset about. You yourself say that only a tiny fraction of gun violence comes from 3d printed weapons, you say you're against the bill, so why are you getting hostile and making wild, baseless as hominem attacks against people who think it's a pointless bill?
It seems like they latched onto the idea that everyone who comments along the lines of "This is a stupid idea.", secretly intends to say "This is a stupid idea, which is why there shouldn't be any gun regulation at all." instead. Needless to say, that's an insane take and only results in them constructing these giant straw man arguments against people who are most likely on the same side as them.
They sound straight up unhinged lol, someone says they don't think it's a good idea and they fly off the handle calling people 300lb gun nuts living in their mom's basement. It makes me sad because I suspect they probably share a lot of similar views as I do but when they present themselves like this it just makes anyone that's unsure of their own political stance think everyone is as batshit as this dude.
I have absolutely no idea what point you're trying to make here since the things before and after your "yet" have nothing to do with each other.
Are you trying to claim I'm brigading with a single account or somehow manipulating votes?
Well that's on you.
Oh damn I was hoping you didn't know that you can instantly win any debate by just (almost) saying the names of logical fallacies.
"Ad Hominem" means that someone isn't inherently wrong just because they're dogshit. They can both still be wrong and dogshit.
Want to point out exactly where I claimed someone must be wrong because they were a bad person?
I don’t think that’s what anyone was thinking…. Until you said this. Are you brigading with a single account or somehow manipulating votes?
This is classic gish gallop. Downvote and move on.
Well, inherently not on the brigading but if you suspect there is voting manipulation going on, by all means dig into it.
My votes are public, the same as any other users. Maybe you could create a site that listed the voting history for each comment? I'm sure the results would be fascinating in every gun related thread.
Yeaaah... I don't think you're worth anyone's time seriously responding to. Lol. Hope you have a good day man.
I'm not pro-gun, stupid. I'm pro-thinking which you're clearly not. Nice troll username btw.
I love when people like the guy you responded to show up, it's so easy to block them on Lemmy.
You rushed right in with their talking points, so I assumed your goal was to spread them. I don't want to break your little heart but I respond to the things people say on social media without forming an intimate relationship with them first.
In other words you're literally a knee jerk. Good to know.
Yes I'm literally a figurative concept.
Understood. Are you for or against the proposed NY legislation?
I'm against it because I know the pro-gun claim of "fixing deeply flawed gun laws is pointless because people will just 3D print guns" is a lie.
Should it one day come true, I'd reconsider my position.
But it hasn't come true anywhere else in the world, nor have any other pro-gun promises come true in the last 20 years.
The point of a fully printed gun would be a zip gun mostly. One shot up close to steal a real gun from a better equipped force. Same with a pipe gun. They're for upgrading.
Okay, so you should be able to provide plenty of examples of this happening then right?
Why would I? If you knew what a zip gun was for you'd realize how ignorant that question is.
Regardless, here's a historical zip.
I think Japan had a recent situation with a hand made firearm as well.
Okay, so not how criminals and terrorists get their guns, because they just walk into a shop and buy them.
lol only the right wing extremist terrorists in the US do it that way, everyone else has to go black market.
Sure, especially considering they said fully printed -- no pre-made firearm components.
The FP-45 Liberator pistol and the CIA's Deer Gun are "real" guns designed for that exact purpose: to kill someone at close range to steal their gun. The first "successful" 3d printed gun was the Defense Distributed Liberator, followed by a plethora of single shot "zip guns" of the same type.
So ... a bunch of 3d printed guns specifically copied from the concept of the FP-45 and Deer Gun.
I fixed your link. I wouldn't want people missing out on that "Usage" section.
Thanks though, I've bookmarked it for when people claim that gun restrictions are pointless because of 3D printers.
That's incredibly stupid. Good Lord.
What's next? CNC machines? Silicone/resin casting supplies? Steel pipes?
Iron ore and carbon
Background checks to buy scrap aluminum or lol... beer?
There was a bill at one point to limit mills and lathes
Screwdrivers, hammers, and automobiles will need a background check and a 30 Day cooling off period.
Lawmakers never cease to amaze me
Is this what the democrats think is important legislation right now?
You can make a firearm in a shitty garage shop way cheaper than the both monetary investment and time investment that comes with using a 3D printer.
People in fuckinh prisons make improvised firearms
This is a waste of time.
It's not about making firearms. It's about being able to make literally anything else, the ability to do so being something that would liberate individuals, to some extent, from the capitalist system. That's what they really don't want.
Uh, I'm pretty sure this is about firearms.
Yes and voter literacy tests were about making sure people were smart enough to vote. /s
You're right. This is definitely about protecting the US service economy from people manufacturing their own plastic trinkets. /s Just to be clear: I think this is a stupid bill, but it absolutely tracks with concern/hysteria around 'ghost guns'. No need to consult the tea leaves to figure this one out.
Lol
If they didn't want people having firearms, by golly there's some lower hanging fruit.
In New York?
This is correct. Although I'm not sure what the actual viability of using a 3d printer for cutting the costs of living in society is. From my understanding you can only kind of recycle proper 3d printer grade PLA plastic and you definitely can't make 3d printer plastic out of trash. Machine tools on the other hand can accomplish many of the same things and a greater percentage of the stuff that goes with them can be made out of trash or scrap.
You can recycle PET bottles, you probably don't use enough PLA packing to be effectively able to recycle it even if it weren't degraded.
True.
But a milling machine (not even a CNC) costs and weighs more than a car.
Meh. 3D printer plastic goes for like $24 a pound on Amazon whereas almost everything you buy costs hundreds and is disposable largely because their cheap, shitty plastic frames aren't repairable. Being able to 3D print your own frames for electronics or tools or machines would save you so much money in the long run.
But the powers that be don't want that. That's the real reason why they've had it out for 3D printers. Printing guns is just an excuse.
Are these lawmakers aware of the fact you can 3d print a 3d printer? Or at least, about 80% of its parts, and the remaining parts are indistinguishable from the random stuff youd buy at the hardware store? (Aluminum extrusion mostly, some gears, etc)
The only part they could theoretically hope to control worth a damn would be the printing nozzles, which are so incredibly cheap to buy bulk and nearly impossible to specialize.
Also you could take this to court and point out that you would need to also include CNC machines, Laser Cutters, lathes, and any of the other variations of tools that can be used to manufacture a DIY gun.
This isnt a problem specific to 3d printers, a CNC mill that can cut aluminum is also just as capable of producing the jigs needed to manufacture gun parts.
I'd argue a cnc mill makes a hell of a better gun than a 3d printer
I'd fire a 3D printed gun with a string from about 20' away.
It would, but it would also require more expense and skill and the "gun control is pointless because people will just make their own guns" lie works best when you can imply there is minimal cost, experience, effort and risk.
since a cnc is computer controlled it should be about as hard to learn to use a 3d printer
making the model and instructions for the cnc may be more complicated, but you can share those
Your gut feelings are not facts. CNC machining -- especially of hard metals and complex shapes -- is significantly more complicated and expensive than desktop 3D printers.
You can't just buy a $200 CNC frame, stick a palm router in it and come back an hour later to an AR-15.
Not that you're saying otherwise, but it's not anywhere that simple to make a gun on a 3d printer either. It's at least not considerably easier than making one clandestinely using any of the myriad options that have existed without 3d printing.
There are companies that sell small CNC machines marketed for the purpose of producing firearms. At that point all you need is the gcode and the stock.
Sounds like you shouldn't have any problem answering these questions then:
Alternatively, you could go on record saying that absolutely none of those things matter for gun manufacturing.
All of the answers to these questions are easy, and they all begin with a G.
G-code answers most of your technical concerns.
Google could have helped you find your other answers.
And the Ghost Gunner is what I found:
https://ghostgunner.net/product/ghost-gunner-3-deposit/
Why so incredulous about something that is obviously possible?
What grade and type of metal is required for a gun? GCode.
Best of luck with your gun.
I'm aware it's possible to CNC gun parts and have never claimed otherwise. But isn't it just fascinating how all the people insisting its how easy and cheap it is have never actually machined anything?
It’s entirely possible the linked product comes with instructions on what material to put in the machine. It’s entirely possible they might even sell the required material.
Based on the reviews and videos of the product your skepticism is unwarranted. You’re just being a dick.
This isn't skepticism, this is actual experience machining parts.
At no point have I suggested that CNC machining gun parts is impossible nor that no desktop printers are capable of it.
I have very specifically challenged people who appear to have no experience machining parts but nevertheless insist it's no more difficult than printing your homework.
It's a lie that's used to undermine gun control and you're repeating it verbatim.
So the big thing people, including lawmakers, whiff on this is you dont actually 3d print guns. You can 3d print superficial parts like the grip and whatnot, but the actual firing part of the gun is largely not 3d printable.
You can print it, and people have tried, but it usually only lasts 1-2 rounds before it breaks.
However, what you can print that is a huge deal, is the very precise jigs necessary to very easily manufacture the firing mechanisms of the gun, to quite a degree of precision. Then you use a drill or whatever to actually make those metal parts.
Basically, you can easily 3d print a gun maker, and then 3d print all the "extra" parts like grip and whatnot that attach to what you have created, in order to improve it.
Thats the actually serious part, because normally these sorts of jigs need to be extremely precise and are quite difficult to get ahold of. You need a fairly high end CNC machine to make one, or you have to buy it.
But 3d printers, even fairly affordable ones, when fine tuned by hand, do have the necessary precision to print such jigs, which makes them much more accessible for quite cheap... And once you print the jig, it becomes pretty easy to mass produce DIY guns.
This doesn't track. You can do way better with a manual mill and, as the other poster mentioned, a 2d paper template with some spray glue will do fine in a pinch. Drilling steel will heat the bit up enough to melt plastic anyway. You could set drill bushings but they won't be perfect and will drift a bit once they heat up.
The jigs in question are a lot more complicated than I think what you are imagining. If you look up on the topic (and possibly get added to a watchlist), it's fairly sophisticated equipment being created to handle a lot more of the finesse work required to produce a ghost gun that can actually reliably hit targets its aimed at.
Thats what separates this sort of work out from your run of the mill DIY handcrafted stuff, the guns in question actually have a lot of accuracy as 3d printed rigs can have very high precision once they have been fine tuned, and unlike stuff like paper they can be produced in 3 dimensions, which means you're working with a lot more than just following lines.
Think more like extremely augmented drill presses and routers and shit that can produce a lot of the parts you normally cant make yourself and have to buy.
I may be underestimating it since I'm a jig builder.
We're talking about different things I think.
People have been making paper templates for a long time, I can't see how plastic would have any real advantage. A plastic guide isn't going to constrain a metal cutting tool, at best it just shows you where you need to drill the same as a paper template. If you wander outside the lines you'll just mess up both the part and the jig.
If I were to set up a clandestine gun manufacurer I would try and design a product that could be made using mostly aluminum extrutions and paper jigs. That way it's easy to compartmentalize each step, harder for one guy to flip on you, and fast/cheap. Plus if you get raided you don't have a bunch of incriminating files cached on your CNC machine from previous runs.
It's a lot more complicated than that. We are talking a lot more than just "guides" when it comes to these types of jigs. Adapters and entire jigs that require a bunch of common parts you can by at the hardware store + the plastic parts to assemble.
Think more like creating bespoke fairly precise CNC stuff to adapt a drill or router. It's a lot more advanced than just paper guides, because 3d printers are for all intents and purposes CNC machines themselves.
Sure, but you still need to buy the actual firing mechanism parts of real guns in order to manufacture "3d printed guns".
And you can also make those same jigs and fixtures out of wood or any other raw material.
Nah thats the parts the jigs make, as well as a couple other key pieces that require higher than usual precision. At least, if you want to actually make a gun that can reasonably hit a target.
Not by hand with the precision needed, not for the parts in question. Unless you want to risk a misfire and losing a finger.
You can make a fireable shotgun out of like 15$ of pipe fittings
This is typical of politicians making laws about shit they don't understand. At all.
Silly. Why can't we just regulated the sale of ammunition and gunpowder?
Why? It’s not guns and bullets killing people, it’s 3D printing 🙃
We do actually. Just last year new york passed the Concealed Carry Improvement act imposing a background check on ammunition purchases. This bill is completely redundant and unnecessary.
Redundant, you say?
How else are corporations going to limit things like "right to repair" and sales, when people can print their own replacement parts or print stuff they would otherwise have to buy?
Think of the profits! /s
Also, how else do you expect politicians to score easy points by "cracking down on gun violence" while wasting taxpayer resources and legislative time/effort? Won't you think of the poor kids going to school in the literal war zone of the public school system?
For the record, common sense gun control laws are important (opinions are what these entail are welcome to vary). The issue is that most of the US already has such laws thoroughly in place yet people and politicians like to act like they don't exist every time a tragedy occurs. I'm sure there's exceptions, but the grand majoroty of the time a politician starts blathering about tightening gun control laws a cursory search shows plenty on the books for their jurisdiction.
NY is the shining example of the simple creation of a law being enough to entirely extinguish any criminal activity related to it in the entire jurisdiction. This one is so incredibly powerful, in fact, that the very second it goes into effect, the whole state of NY will be unable to cross state lines to acquire said devil boxes, nor even use a VPN to make such a purchase online. Also, sharks are smooth.
That's actually an excellent point about sharks that many people don't realize. I'm petting one right now and it feels like the softest silk.
No direction is taboo, they're smoother than vanta is black 🦈
I'm all for preventative laws if they are good policy. This isn't good policy.
Or at least the gun parts needed to make a "3d printed" gun actually function as a firearm.
You can make a completely 3D printed gun that will survive at least one shot. I'm sure if you're using resin or carbon fiber reinforced plastic so you could probably get more than one shot off.
Resin is generally more brittle than filament, FYI, and the real question with most 3D-printed firearms is whether the shooter survives "at least one shot".
Most 3d printed guns are either redesigns of existing guns replacing non pressure bearing parts with printed parts (look up FMDA17 a 3D printed Glock 17 equivalent) or mostly printed with pressure bearing parts being barstock or pipes (see FGC-9).
I'm not really sure where you're getting "Most 3D-printed guns", but here's one of the top communities of such. You'll see quite clearly that MSLA is not the preferred method for production, parts or otherwise.
I wasn't claiming MSLA was preferred I was commenting in reference to the latter half of the comment. Most 3DP firearms last much more than a single round because they incorporate metal components where important.
I'm familiar with Defcad, but would recommend The Gatalog over it.
Oh, hey, thanks! I'm new to the concept and my interest is design adjacent: modded Nerf/airsoft arms, so I'm largely unaware of the intricacies of actual firearms printing — though, I'll give Gatalog a look, fo sho 🤙🏼
In that case you might want to check out Booligan Shooting Sports on YouTube (he took a similar trajectory as you), Fuddbusters, and Ivanprintsguns also have some 3D2A content.
Hot damn! That's awesome, thanks!! 🤘🏼🤓
That may usually survive that one shot.
Or it may fail and cause damage to the person foolish enough to be weilding it.
Receivers are already regulated
Receivers are usually the main part that's 3d Printed, that's the problem.
$$
You can easily create a firearm with a short length of steel pipe and a nail. I don't know how this will do anything. Plus people can just drive to another state.
It will be effective in 3d printers gaining attention for having the ability to print firearms
Obviously no respectable criminal would use a pipe gun without a 3d-printed ergonomic handle.
Well then you'll know what to do when your guns are taken away won't you?
When you've finished building it (and the home made ammo to go in it), don't forget to post a picture of your new baby to all the pro-gun communities.
I'm sure they'll all be very jealous of your dogshit "pipe and nail" gun.
I can tell ya havent interacted with the firearms communited too much. Its a lot like the car communited, sure there are quite a few folks who are overcompensating dickbags but there are just as many folks who just like em in generally which means the weirder the more interesting.
If someone could get a steel pipe and a nail to work as a functional firearm that can fire once theyd be respected, if they could get it to fire more than once and consistently there a solid chance theyd become a saint of the firearms community.
A slam fire only needs to fire once.
Making it absolute dogshit for criminals and domestic terrorists.
Exactly. It has one use.
That will never happen in the lifetime of anyone who can read these comments. Our gun rights are set in stone and there's nothing you can ever do about it.
Tell that to your slaves.
Username checks out.
Can anyone name one crime that has been committed with a 3d printed gun from the last 3 years that hasn't been committed 100x more often in the last week with a stolen or illegally obtained gun.
Or by legal gun owners, who are responsible for a massive percentage of gun violence, (for example, 80% of all mass shootings).
You know, the same legal gun owners who let their guns get stolen or staunchly oppose closing gun show loopholes or making straw-purchasing more difficult.
I agree with all of your points but have a small nitpick that I really wish people would stop calling it the gun show loophole
The loophole is that private sales (depending on state laws) don't require a background check (which, to be clear, I disagree with)
But all of those guys with tables set up at the gun show are FFL dealers, buying from them is just like buying from any regular gun shop with all of the normal background checks and other requirements you'd expect in your state.
Now any of the random folks wandering around the show, in theory, could sell you a gun without any background check, but that's not unique to them being at a gun show, they could do the same from their garage, a Walmart parking lot, a random street corner, a TGI Fridays, etc.
I'm also pretty sure that most, if not all gun shows specifically prohibit those private sales from happening at their events.
Again, I'd like to see the loophole closed, but calling it a gun show loophole just leaves the door open for gun nuts to say "lol, there is no gun show loophole, see you don't even know what you're talking about" because there's really nothing unique about gun shows as it pertains to the law.
Instead i'd say we should refer to it as the private sale loophole or the Brady bill loophole.
The loophole thing really turned into a talking point, didn't it? Whenever someone uses that word, I automatically assume they've never been to a gun show.
I tend to make the same assumption, not that I think it's important for people saying these things and crafting these laws to have ever been to a gun show, but they should at least understand what it is they want to regulate.
I am by no means anti gun, I like guns, enjoy shooting, I don't currently own any because I have other priorities for my money, but if I suddenly found myself with a lot more disposable income I'd probably own a couple. That said, I do support a lot of gun control measures that would make the average Republican voter call me a crazy gun grabbing communist.
Mostly though, I hate seeing people pushing for laws and regulations when they clearly don't understand what it is they're trying to regulate. You see a lot of liberals get up in arms (and rightfully so) about shitty Internet laws crafted by geriatric politicians who can barely manage to check their own emails, but then go and make the same kind of mistakes with gun laws
To name one particularly egregious example, McCarthy describing a barrel shroud as "a shoulder thing that goes up" had similar energy no Stevens describing the internet as "a series of tubes" except the tubes analogy could actually kind of work for some internet issues (though not the specific one he was complaining about) whereas I can't think of any way to twist the shoulder thing comment to make it apply to a barrel shroud.
That's all fair, but it remains the most widely accepted term for the issue, complete with its own Wikipedia page.
It doesn't matter what it's called, they'll continue to oppose addressing it because their strategy is to only take, never give.
That doesn't mean we need to make it easy for them to oppose it. Don't give them a stupid way to dismiss the conversation before it even gets off the ground, make them actually defend their position that private sales shouldnt need background checks.
IMO, getting stuck calling it the gun show loophole when there are better things to call it because that's what everyone has always called it has the same kind of energy as conservative assholes who refuse to learn a person's pronouns or old people who never bothered to scrub things like "colored" or "oriental" from their vocabulary. Language can, does, and should change with the times, and we need to keep up with it.
Sounds like bikeshedding to me.
Them getting caught up on you calling it the gun show loophole is bikeshedding, and you can solve it by the simple action of calling it something else.
Again, there is no possible combination of words that will make the pro-gun community support its closure and you're doing them a massive favor by implying they have a role in the conversation at all.
With Google searches for "private sale loophole" returning results for "gun show loophole" (as well as information about the origin of the term), it could just as easily be argued that you're muddying the waters for semantics.
So I'll just keep using whatever phrase gets my point across and you can use whatever words you want in the gun-control comments you don't seem to be making, to placate people who don't seem to exist, so they don't use a talking point that's trivial to address.
It's not about changing the gun nuts' minds, like you said, it's not going to happen, but there's a whole lot of people out there without strong feelings one way or another, who don't know about what laws are out there, and who are potentially open to being persuaded to your way of thinking, and if you want to convince them of your position, you don't want to give your opposition an easy opportunity to derail the conversation and make it look like you don't know what you're talking about and they do.
Fine. I'll never call it a gun show loophole again. Anything to stop this tedious discussion of semantics for a situation I've never found myself in.
Call it a "private sales loophole". It's more accurate, and covers what you would actually want covered.
A big issue with gun control, outside of the NRA being a huge grift, is that gun control advocates have no idea how guns work and what current laws actually do. They often confuse things that are truly dangerous with purely cosmetic features.
Well even the most profoundly stupid person can see the most important thing American gun laws do; fail on a daily basis.
Great! Then you can run off and ban collapsible stocks again. That will surely help.
Hey if you want us to ban things that actually help, I'm all for it. Should we start with semi-automatic weapons or handguns?
If that's what you want, start arming African Americans and LGBTQ+ folk. The GOP will be falling over themselves to ban guns then.
No they won't. They're paid $16 million a year to make sure nothing interferes with the profitability of the gun lobby. It's why the price doubled after Sandy Hook.
Armed minorities aren't a threat to anyone they care about and if it gives police more excuses to execute them in the street, that's a few less democrat voters.
If guns actually made the public safer, America would be the safest country in the world by a wide margin.
80% of mass shootings isn't a "Massive percentage", it's quite small actually
I know you're trying to say "the people killed by domestic terrorists in America are statistically insignificant" but awkwardly shoehorning it in like that just makes it sound like you don't understand percentages.
The logic of this is nonexistent. An argument could be made very convincingly that cars are dangerous to allow in the hands of criminals. 2 tons of metal, well known for and capable of ending a life, with the ability to aid criminal enterprises and avoidance of law enforcement. So should car sales now require a criminal background check? All this would do is further disenfranchise convicted felons, regardless of the actual crime committed, and create new difficulties for a group that includes a very high percentage of people already proven to give no shits about the law who will find and exploit ways to continue activities despite any laws attempting to restrict them.
You can’t buy a car in most states without insurance. You can’t get insurance without a license. You cannot get a license… and so on. So that’s not a good example.
Private party car sales have no burden on the seller to verify the buyer has car insurance.
At the end of the day you need insurance to drive it on the road.
On a public road sure, but there's no requirement for licensing a vehicle operated entirely on private land.
Need it yes but not everyone gets it
My understanding was that insurance was typically only a prerequisite for operating on public roadways not ownership. So you can drive a car on your own property if you say had a farm without paying for insurance.
If you buy private sure, but I’m not sure how liability works then. Typically medical insurance will refuse to cover vehicle related injuries, so if you or someone else is injured while operating their car on your own property you may be SOL.
I’m not the person you replied to, but it’s an okay comparison. It’s not perfect - 3D printers are way less dangerous than cars - but it conveys the same point.
Like cars and unlike guns, 3D printers are tools. The federal government prevents a convicted felon from owning a gun, but not from driving; generally speaking, states only prohibit this if you were convicted of reckless driving or some other vehicle related offense.
Also, once I have a license I can walk into any car dealer and drive out with a car a couple hours later. This law has an up-to-15 day turn around for the background check and no means of attesting that you are licensed and permitted to purchase a 3D printer without waiting. That’s gonna be a pain for everyone who’s interested in a 3D printer. If my car is taken out of service and I need it to get to work, I can buy another. I don’t have to wait 15 days. If my business involves 3D printing and one of my printers breaks down and needs replaced, having to wait an extra 15 days for a replacement is ridiculous.
If the law said “Felons who were convicted of crimes involving 3D printers may not purchase or own a 3D printer” then that would be more appropriate and closer to how cars are handled.
IMO a more apt comparison would be to other consumer grade tools, like drills, circular saws, etc.. Just because I can theoretically make something dangerous with such a tool doesn’t mean the tool needs to be restricted.
Afaik NY doesn’t prohibit felons from buying an “80 percent” Glock frame, a Glock slide, and a Dremel, nor does it prevent them from buying a CNC that can mill a full metal gun. (NJ prohibits the first of those (for everyone) and it’s illegal there to construct a gun at home if you aren’t legally permitted to own one, but that’s harder to enforce.) Either of those legal purchase sets enable you to create a gun at home that’s a much more effective firearm than can be 3D printed. Prohibiting them from buying a 3D printer (when technically even an Ender 3 can print a “gun”) is just silly.
Some stats: in the USA, there were:
this works out to:
If that one unverified one is the one I'm thinking out of Rhode Island from Jan 2020 that was a polymer 80 not a 3D printed gun.
Sure was, and that’s what I thought as well.
I looked into it a while ago one news site had pictures he'd posted on FB with it in the background if I remember correctly.
I disagree that it conveys the same point unless your point is that criminals don’t follow laws, so why have laws. Cars are very regulated. You also can’t sneak a car through a metal detector in your pocket and run individuals over indoors. Completely different threats, with completely different availability.
This bill was just introduced, there’s little detail yet on how this could be accomplished.
Is that really the point that you took away from my comment? Let me simplify it for you:
The law cannot possibly have a positive effect. It cannot reduce deaths no matter how effective it is because there have been no deaths.
The law will have an outsized negative effect. It prevents and delays access to tools that are used by businesses, schools, and hobbyists. That's not even accounting for the cost to review the background checks.
Did you follow the link and read the bill? It lays it all out.
In this case a neutral effect is better than a negative one. Preventative legislation on something that is a foregone conclusion is relevant. These guns already exist, and printers are getting better. At some point someone will use one to kill someone. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to get out ahead of it. Is this bill it? I don’t know.
Those Negative effects are not large burdens.
Yes I read it. It’s not gone through any review yet and is simply written to piggy back on an existing system. The Drone community went through the same thing worth FAA licensing.
Wait, ex-cons can't even get cars in the US? Are you serious?
No? Where did you get that from? Maybe if they’ve lost their license for DUI’s or something.
Oh, did we start requiring criminal background checks for pipes and metal stock too? This is the same problem we’re facing in the rest of the country, everything can be used as a weapon, and requiring background checks on all of them is gonna do nothing to stop gun crime. Regulate the damn guns, that is the only thing that will help.
US: We have a gun problem.
Also, US: We’ve tried everything but regulate guns and we’re all out of ideas!
Lol, are you insane? I'm not against better controls, but if you think the US is lacking in gun control laws and regulations you are sorely mistaken.
No you don't understand. The pro-gun community would support a solution, it just needs to be instantly and 100% effective without inconveniencing a single gun owner or costing anything.
It's a completely reasonable position and not at all just an excuse to do nothing.
Maybe the answer is that every single human being should own a gun and carry it every single place they go 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.
Where do I put it when I'm showering tho?
on the sink right next to the shower would be my guess.
What if my dog gets it? I need a waterproof holster. Or a condom.
You could do what that one guy did and put one in a piece of Tupperware mounted to the shower wall.
Isn't it just fascinating how all the solutions proposed by gun owners and Republican politicians just happen to coincide with what's most profitable for the gun lobby?
But I'm sure people who manufacture guns are much more moral than the tobacco industry, oil industry, sugar industry, asbestos industry and all those other groups that got caught putting profits before people's lives.
America isn't the only country in the world with hardware stores yet is still the only country in the world with weekly mass shootings -- 80% of which use legally purchased firearms and 0% of which use home made guns.
"I sure am glad this doesn't happen every week"
- Shinzo Abe
"The important thing is that no gun owners were mildly inconvenienced"
- Thousands of dead school children, executed partners and victims of crime
You’re getting downvoted to shit on most of your comments but just wanted to say you are not wrong.
Except comments where I use a % -- those still have a conspicuously positive score. I wonder if someone's sleazy tools are being thrown off by it?
I'm a leftist, I don't support laws like this cause they don't actually do anything. Dems fr have been supporting initivies to fork over more and more data.
Here's a fun fact, hobby machinists have been making guns in their garages for as long as machining has been a career.
You can, right now, buy a drill press for a few hundred bucks and finish 80% lowers in an apartment if you want. If you have a lot of money to spend you could buy a mini mill and make the job a lot easier.
These are completely unregulated and arguably much more dangerous.
Have fun with that knowledge.
Hell, you can make a basic pipe shotgun with a $5 hacksaw and some steel pipe. Not only that, but you can pretty convert tons of guns to full auto with basically no effort. Sometimes literally a piece of coat hanger bent with pliers. The Lightning Link, which can convert a majority of modern ARs to full auto has been around for decades and can be made with about $1 worth of steel, a piece of paper with the design printed on it, and that hacksaw you used earlier. Even some guy in his garage could easily make hundreds a year without a single power tool.
All of this is to say, you know what we don't see? Millions of illegal full-auto firearms being used to re-enact the minigun scene from Terminator 2. Much to the shock of our government, the vast majority of citizens are law-abiding, and stupid shit like this once again only harms normal people while criminals will just continue to break the law as usual.
There is a decent community of 3d printed firearms, but they're not printing pressure chambers or barrels. These things can be and frequently are regulated. These guys are printing crazy looking guns for fun. They still have to go buy the important bits and even then they still fail pretty regularly.
This is some real brain dead legislation
Oh, I'm well aware and I'm part of that community, which is what makes this so hilarious. US gun legislation hasn't ever really been based on reality, and always amazes me that in a country where guns are such an integral part of its history and culture, we have people who seemingly know less than nothing about anything firearms related effectively making legislation based on something they saw in a movie that one time.
And I can't even remember the last time a crime was committed with a made-at-home gun. We're really going after the people that commit all the violence. 🙄
It's such an easy window into the fact that it's about cutting the access to weapons of the population who might use them to fight back against government action. They dgaf if we murder each other, they just don't want us murdering them.
I think it's stupider than that. They have no idea how a handmade gun could be built without a 3d printer. They probably have zero clue what a 3d printer actually can and cannot do, and I'd bet most politicians have never seen one or bothered to understand it before regulating it. Their sole exposure is a few loud people who also do not understand anything about guns or 3d printers, and confuse that lack of understanding with definitive proof that it is evil and should be banned.
Same principle applies to the frequent attempts to ban semi-auto rifles, when rifles account for 3% or less of all homicides annually.
Those kind of weapons are effective for defending / attacking a moderate sized area, unlike pistols and bolt-action rifles. Pistols are short range and bolt-action rifles are slow. It's obviously about the power that they don't want the people to have.
This is just a way to restrict individual freedom from corporate ownership. It's the equivalent of "for the children". If you're against guns don't fall for this bait, support some other legislation.
What brain dead legislation.
It's ok, you can still buy them privately at a 3D printer show.
You can technically also 3D print a 3D printer.
How in the hell are they gonna enforce this? Is every kid who baight a 3d printer of ebay now committing a crime?
Lol more regulation for 3d printers than guns themselves
They've just got to figure out a way to twist one of the amendments into a shield.
Wow, this makes my country's nonsense gun laws look sane.
They do know that even children from 70 years ago where making firearms right? https://newyorkcitygangs.com/?page_id=1708
The first weapons that would be visibly identified as rifles are about 500 years old.
Firearms you can hold and point, are how old now?
From Wikipedia
Around the late 14th century in Europe, smaller and portable hand-held cannons were developed, creating in effect the first smooth-bore personal firearm.
Over 500 years old.
Democrats have no sense of history otherwise they would have to cancel themselves
Stupid, authoritarian, and dystopian.
So what will the state of NY do if I buy an Ender-3 in Vermont and then bring it home?
Ask Kyle Printtenhouse.
It will also be illegal to transport a 3D printer across state lines.
"Printer? No, this is just some aluminum parts and stepper motors"
You see they have the fact that the only places you can get a 3d printer in Vermont is through Amazon as the only places you can get anything remotely techy is at the only Best buy in the state or some auto shop and from my experience I've never seen a 3d printer there
Vermont was used as an example because I remembered it bordered NY, not because it's the only state in the union where 3D printers are sold.
You can always 3d print a 3d printer
3d printerception
This is just "New Media is scary and I'm old!" Fear Mongering
Yeah, we have this little thing called a Constitution, might just get in the way
You have a constitutional right to bear 3-D printers?
Yes, and don't you forget that
The Founding Fathers really thought of everything.
It would probably be argued under free speech oddly enough.
Not even 'oddly enough.'
While you can't own a bomb factory without proper authorization (because its only purpose is building bombs), something as general-purpose as a 3D printer would absolutely enjoy first amendment protections.
Interesting tidbit: it's not illegal to make your own guns in the US. You don't even need a license.
I mean, imagine telling someone who was once convicted of a crime "no sorry, you can't buy a 3D printer to make things around the house, you could make a gun as well!"
If the only thing a 3D printer could do is print a gun, then there'd be an argument. This is like banning callipers from convicted criminals because they could be used to measure ammunition. If this law somehow sticks, I will be very disappointed in the shortsighted thinking that led to such a law passing.
Counter offer: a bill that will limit the purchase of 3D printers to people with a criminal history.
Also absurd and unconstitutional. You can make a rudimentary gun out of plumbing parts from a hardware store that is at least as effective as a 3d printer, arguably more so if you're looking at 100% printed parts. Should we run background checks at the register at Home Depot? Should you not be able to buy plumbing if you made some bad decisions and served the time?
These are all ridiculous laws designed to restrict the liberties of the common man.
as you should, Americans have forgotten just how dangerous the world really is. You would think people would have learned something from the Hamas attacks on civilians Israel
Eh, it is easier to buy one. Besides, if I wouldn't pass a background check I'd get the gun some other way. As it turns out, criminals care very little about abiding by gun control laws. Just look at the areas with the strictest gun control, they also happen to be the places with the highest rate of gun violence.
Makes it look like they're doing something about crime. Doesn't stop anyone from selling or buying them one, though, does it?
Private party transfers of anything can't really be forced to abide background checks. If you want to buy a used printer from your friend you can just buy it, not inform the government, and skirt any background check requirements.
So you want a deliberate "3D printer show" loophole?
Other countries have absolutely no problem whatsoever enforcing background checks for private firearm transfers. Claiming it can't be done is a self-serving lie.
In Soviet Russia, access to photocopiers, mimeographs, etc. was restricted to prevent the dissemination of samizdat.
Has anybody actually successfully produced a proper firearm with a 3D printer? Like, one that doesn't melt after firing a shot? Who are these people who've created this nonsensical panic?
On firearms in the US, the receiver (usually) is legally “the gun”. Everything else is parts. In a gun store you sign a 4473 federal form for a gun. You can walk out paying cash for parts with no papers. Mailing a gun requires numerous special procedures. Mailing parts is as simple as mailing anything else.
There have been a lot of 3D printed receivers, aka “the gun” made, and then all the relevant parts added. I don’t know how many, because by its nature the numbers aren’t really tracked, but there is an active hobbiest community for the practice.
This is a modernization of the older practice of building guns at home. Using traditional methods, guns including AR-15s (easy) to AKs (hard) have been built at home from non-gun materials for receivers, and then fitted with parts.
Not that I agree with the panic. It’s silly. As above mentioned, 3D printing is an evolution of the practice not a revolutionary new way to access guns.
Yes... they've been doing it for years.
They have advanced the production technique enough to make full auto guns that shoot pistol calibers.
Also 3D printing in metal is a thing, I do believe it requires finish machining for the majority of consumer grade units.
Your average consumer grade 3d printer cannot print in metal. I looked into this at one point for jewelry, and you need commercial printers that cost thousands upon thousands of dollars for most metals.
Having said that, yes, 3d printing guns has reached a point where people can make 100% 3d printed full auto guns in pistol calibers. In fact, that's exactly what the Burmese resistance groups are using to fight back against the genocidal regime in their country. Because nobody in the international community cares enough to support them with military arms, but they can get 3d printers to print enough guns that they can kill and loot soldiers for better guns.
You don't need to print in metal to make a functional 3D printed gun.
VICE did a video on it. I recommend checking it out.
I meant to put it in my second paragraph, but I meant 100% printed PLA full auto guns chambered in pistol calibers (with maybe some basic metal parts inside). I'm not really into the gun part of 3d printing, but I keep an eye on it because there's been a lot of innovation there that has changed manufacturing ideas in the rest of the 3d printing world. They figured out how to rifle a metal barrel with nothing more than a bucket of saltwater and an electric current, no milling machines or anything required! We definitely aren't in the world of one-shot pistols using rubber bands in the trigger anymore.
There used to be a fantastic documentary on the history of 3d printed guns I would recommend people watch by a channel on YouTube called 3d Print General, which mostly does 3d printer reviews and stuff, but the video recently got deleted by YouTube, despite some of the VICE videos showing more about how to actually make 3d printed guns than his documentary.
But the thing I always want to make clear to people is that the vast majority of people printing guns are the equivalent of the guys making kit cars in their garage - hobbyists, not criminals. Because you can buy a $200+ printer and spend the time learning how to use it, or you can go to a state with no gun laws and buy a cheap pistol for $150 from a gun shop.
Yes, you want to make this clear because you're concerned about regulation. This is a political issue that you're mentioning, nothing more.
I was merely stating that you don't need to print in metal to make a functional 3D printed gun.
The VICE video I mentioned has everyone who is printing 3D guns eager to specify their stance on the political talking point, just as you did.
Yes, this is a political issue, and yes, I'm concerned about regulation, because of laws like this that will potentially hurt unrelated people like myself in the process because people who have little understanding of the subject already have an opinion on it. Simply stating the facts can drive somebody who has already formed an opinion based on their immediate emotional response even deeper into their stance without being concerned about how that stance affects others (or they might just jam their fingers in their ears and ignore any facts that don't align with their worldview, like anti-vaxers).
I'm a trans woman who runs a business on Etsy selling 3d printed earrings. If I had a criminal record and lived in New York, this law could potentially put my ability to put food on the table at risk as collateral damage in the name of fighting ghost guns. Obviously, I have a strong opinion on the matter, as it could directly affect me.
My entire life is a "political issue." In the first 6 months of this year, Republicans tried to pass at least 235 anti-trans laws. That's more than 1 law per day, attempting to regulate me out of daily life, with the support of a voting populace with little understanding of the subject who have already formed an opinion on it. Like this law, those laws don't affect me, but they're still "political issues" that could put my rights at risk, just like laws like this one.
Obviously, I don't know your opinion on the matter of 3d printed guns (or if you even have one), but the people who get upset at people who "always make things political" are the people who have never had their rights at risk of being revoked.
Cody Wilson.
That was ages ago. I lurked in some related subreddits before the api fiasco. They were constantly improving designs and processes.
Still a ridiculous law though. Should we do background checks for lathes too?
It's a legitimate waste of time. We have government officials being paid to draft this and vote on this.
Sounds like the war on general-purpose
computationmanufacturingdumb and pointless
Idiots.
How do they plan to run a background check before I click the "buy" button?
lmao could you even make a usable firearm with a 3D printer?
Even if you used the best quality material, it would probably explode on the first shot making its aim useless and probably a danger to the user.
Also why not do a background check for idk maybe the gunpowder lol.
You can! There's a pretty big community for 3D printed guns. Interesting Vice doc on it: https://youtu.be/C4dBuPJ9p7A?si=NjWH8-4bB0dEGIjH
Oh wow, I didn't think plastic could be viable.
brb gonna 3d print a tank lmao
A lot of guns use some type of plastic somewhere, there are metal parts and polymer parts. You’re going to want metal for the areas under pressure but everything else can be whatever.
You can make a shotgun with a nail and pipe from a hardware store. It won’t be very good, but it can fire shot.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/C4dBuPJ9p7A?si=NjWH8-4bB0dEGIjH
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Can't stop the signal.
Just go into jersey or any surrounding staye and buy the printer and head back to New york
Or just buy some steppers, cabling, and 8020. Is NY going to be regulating those too? Are they going to require serialized hotends?
Welp I guess I'll have to rely on the black market from now on.
Oh dear, this new law will hit a lot of US "politicians"
Reason #56,273 not to live in NY.