Appeals Court Bails Trump Out of Having to Post Massive Fraud Bond

Stopthatgirl7@lemmy.world to News@lemmy.world – 547 points – Appeals Court Bails Trump Out of Having to Post Massive Fraud Bond
rollingstone.com

Donald Trump was supposed to have to post a $464 million bond by Monday or else the state of New York could begin collecting on the massive civil fraud judgment leveled against him earlier this year. An appeals court bailed him out, blocking collection of the judgment and giving the former president 10 days to post a drastically reduced $175 million bond.

The order is a huge win for Trump, whose assets were going to be subject to seizure if he couldn’t post nearly half-a-billion dollars by Monday. His lawyers said last week he wasn’t going to be able to come up with the money after 30 underwriters rejected him. The New York Times has reported that Trump is expected to be able to scrounge the new, reduced $175 million bond

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That's bullshit. Just more laws that don't apply to this traitor.

Trump undervalued his properties to the IRS and overvalued them to investors. And now the courts are allowing him to undervalue them so he doesn't have to face the consequences of his fraud.

I remember, many years ago before the first time he ran, I read he and his buddy lawyer giuliany were neck deep in shit and Stormy also had a solid case. I was like "that's it. now he goes to jail." but lo and behold, here we are and he's free and running again.

Maybe it's true what people say: Flying is like falling and missing the ground. (I think it's based on something Douglas Adams wrote.)

Was that when he was referenced something like "Co-Conspirator #1 who went on to lead a successful campaign to become president of the United States"?

I remember that too and thinking "oh shit, he's fucked now!" But nope. Our political system is so broken that he really is above the law and consequences. Not sure why we went through with the whole American Revolution thing just to end up in a place where there are figurative kings held to a different standard than the rest of us peasants.

We really need a law that says when you tell the IRS what your property is worth they are allowed to buy it at that price; if they later find out you represented it at a higher value to others.

Eh. This was a pretty political trial. "Over valued his holdings" oh probably a little, but value of real estate isn't fixed. The bank reps would have to be completely incompetent or maybe they agreed with the valuations.

Bullshit indeed, but there is not one thing you or I or anyone in this country can do about it. Trump has us all over a barrel, and we're all his puppets, and there is no way forward but to accept his will no matter what else happens. We must start to see him not as a traitor, but as a savior, for who else but a savior could escape so many serious charges.

There’s plenty we can do about it. For instance, my wife and I just put an offer on a house in Europe and will be leaving ASAP.

Hopefully you vote on your way out.

I still care about everyone in the country. So, I’ll definitely still continue voting.

US is fucked, but also, what is your comment? It reads like three comments in a trenchcoat pretending to be a real comment...

"Yeah, we called Europe and we said, 'one European house please, ASAP!'. And then we bought two airplane tickets to Europe - 'just drop us off in Europe' we said"

So what you're "doing about it" is giving up and going away.

And people wonder why Republicans keep winning.

Yep. I’m almost 50 and have tried my best to help those around me see a better way. I’ve always voted. I did my part, but half the country still wants this shit. So, my wife and I are retiring early, peacing out, and letting ya’ll figure it out for yourselves. Good luck!

Yeah this is the way.

Often in life when you're faced with an untenable situation the only appropriate course of action is to withdraw.

Sadly not an option available to most people.

It is an option that requires more work and sacrifice than most people are willing to endure. We prioritized saving over consumerism, fixing things over buying new, not having kids, etc. I grew up poor, had no help from my parents (or anyone), and was able to make it. However, a lot has changed since I started to make it even more difficult for people.

Well I'm no longer going to be leaving the US, though that was my first plan. Instead I'd gladly stay and watch it burn to the ground around me when trump gets re-elected (and note, it's not even in doubt anymore - he WILL get re-elected).

There’s a hundred percent chance I will eventually die and a high chance if I don’t pay my taxes I will pay fines or go to jail.

There’s maybe a 40% chance Trump will get in again even if you keep trying to discourage people to vote against him.

According to polls published in USA TODAY and on NBC Nightly News, there's a 75% chance Trump actually will be re-elected. People hate him, but see him as the only one who can pull us out of rising inflation.

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Damn, I didn't know there was such a thing as a sommelier but for boots. How many licks does it take to reach your level?

A lifetime of them, my son. A lifetime of them. And your servitude to people like this is just beginning, even if you can't see it yet.

Wtf are you talking about? You start by saying yes there are two justice systems, one for rich and one for poor, then end with we should see this fucking failure of justice as an anointing of a savior?

They're just a boring-ass troll trying to get a rise out of people.

They've probably driven away all the people in their real life and have to resort to trolling online to get any sort of attention.

It'd be sad if they didn't suck so badly.

You can either join the savior and his salvation or be one of those he tramples down into the dust. There won't be any other options.

Not that I'm a huge fan of having to bow down to this POS who I don't particularly like, but it's either that or be eradicated completely. Join or die, my friend - that's the choice you now have to make. There is no other.

That's exactly how Nazi Germany came to be.

If you don't think we're already in Neo-Nazi Germany, open your eyes and look around. Here in Utah, we aren't even allowed to use the internet anymore or to talk in schools about racism or diversity. In fact the Governor just declared immigrants "poisonous scum" and said America was built by white people ordained by God to enslave the rest of humanity. And he said native americans are scumbags.

That's the world I live in every day here, and it's only getting even more restrictive, prohibitive, and full of hate every second of the day.

Well, as a German, I can only point out the parallels between today's situation and the Nazis' seizure of power in the Weimar Republic - and urgently warn: don't do as the Germans did in 1933, be courageous and do everything you can to save what's left of your democracy. I realize, of course, that the USA has long been a de facto plutocracy in which the population often loses out, but at least there are still certain freedoms. In a fascist autocracy like Nazi Germany was, there are no freedoms whatsoever: Political dissidents, intellectuals and dissenters were systematically and mercilessly persecuted, tortured and ultimately killed - millions fell victim to this inhumane regime.

Despite everything, things are not yet that bad in the USA, but the foundations are being laid. And the political climate in the USA is also frighteningly similar to the situation before the Nazis seized power in Germany: openly fascist rhetoric, a large section of the population that wants a strong leader and turns a blind eye to what that means, many disillusioned people who have already given up in frustration with economic hardship and the failure of politics and, above all, greedy opportunists in business and politics who will literally walk over dead bodies for personal gain (...).

Unfortunately, the fascists are also on the rise again in Germany. That's why many Germans are taking to the streets to protest against the far right - if only because they want to show and feel that they are not alone in rejecting the inhuman ideology of the fascists.

So in short: please don't give up yet, but do all you can against the rise of fascism in your country. It is not yet the end of democracy in the USA, but the danger is imminent - a fascist autocracy could very well mean a terror regime that America has never known before. Don't let that happen!

Accelerationists are shit. Get banned.

My friend you'll soon be one of the first to reap what you've sown with your ignorance today. Have a nice "rest of the week...."

Okay kind of sort of got where you were going in the beginning but what in the ever living fuck are you blabbering about him being a savior?

Isn't he? Everyone here in Utah kisses trump's ass daily and our conservative legislatures are constantly reminded us that trump is the Angel Moroni come back to earth, the literal second coming of christ himself, who will solve all of our problems 100 percent.

What's he going to save us from? The lack of a dictatorship? The tyranny of trans people?

It could be, I say it just COULD be, that I was being a might sarcastic.....

Do people really not appreciate simple trolling around here anymore? Everyone's acting like they think this is serious, and that's the most disturbing part.

It's just what many people actually believe so not funny at all

Poe's law is in effect here.

This person may be a troll, or they may be a true believer.

How high are you right meow?

Not high enough, my son. Not HIGH enough. If only I had a way to get that high!

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YOU HAVE GOT TO BE FUCKING KIDDING ME

The legal system is doing EVERYTHING it can to delay literally everything for this man, just so that election time will creep closer and closer and they can just say, "oh it's too close to election time and we can't just cancel a Presidential candidate in the midst of all this".

These exceptions will never be given to any normal citizen of the US, but when it's this rich orange idiot, every rule in existence will bend.

May Trump and his VP pick both have fatal heart attacks late September/early October

Tomorrow would also work. Or today.

I aim for Late September so the GoP are in a panic trying to replace him so late in the election season and eat themselves alive

Perhaps just a debilitating stroke, that cripples him into a wheelchair, and finally inhibits that disgusting portion of his brain that knows no shame, so is forced to finally realize the culmination of his life is an enormous steaming pile of corrupted bullshit.

It’s pretty funny seeing his supporters and himself claim that the whole system is against him and that this is all some unfair witch hunt, and then turn around and see that he is constantly getting special treatment in the news.

That’s how they justify his innocence. When a corrupt system exonerates a corrupt piece of shit, but you they to acknowledge the corruption in either-

It’ll appear as if justice is being carried out and their corrupt piece of shit walks free.

Yep, trump is not the only person on trial here. You can't set a precedent that actually punishes financial fraud to the point where you can't actually profit from it when you're eventually caught.

Trump isn't the only real estate tycoon in NYC who has been fraudulently inflating the value of their assets. It would be uncomfortable for the judges to have to make a similar decision in the future to campaign donors.

Tbf the law works both ways. They cannot drop the charges to give him favor in the elections either. After the elections however, if he's the president...

They cannot drop the charges to give him favor in the elections either.

Doubt.

The rule of law only matters when the law is enforced.

My claim was according to the law, not whether the law would be followed or not.

I actually thought something like this was going to happen, since it has happened before, per another comment I read earlier.

Some corporations were told to post billions in appeals bonds, and in the end they were reduced to a fraction of it.

So, while disappointing, I wasn't completely surprised of this event.

I’m slightly less mad now that I know this has precedent. I’m still fucking furious that the only precedent I’ve heard about is corporations and Trump, since the law should be equally applied regardless of absolute amounts of money and I’m pretty sure that someone living in poverty isn’t going to get the same treatment for a $50k (or whatever is a proportional amount) judgement against them.

FUCKING SHIT. I SWEAR TO FUCK. CANT HE BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE FUCKING EVER!?!? JUST THE CLASSIFIED FUCKING DOCUMENTS SITUATION SHOULD OF HAD HIS ASS IN JAIL LIKE DISCORD BRO. FUCK.

You had to have seen it coming.

What was going to happen, he fails to post bond like any other schmuck and goes to jail?

That wasn’t what was at stake here. Trump was already found guilty, he wasn’t bonding out of pretrial detention he was having to post bond in order to appeal the ruling, which typically requires the person making the appeal to post a bind to make sure they don’t spend all their money fighting on appeal, just to lose the appeal and not have any money left to pay the original judgement.

So my expectation was that yes, he would have to follow the same court rules as everyone else and put up the bond in order to appeal. While I do think we should get rid of requiring pretrial detention bond, I don’t necessarily see an issue with requiring pre-appeal bond. I don’t know, you don’t want to create a situation where you’re means testing the right to appeal, but you don’t want people to indefinitely delay enforcement of judgement against them or to allow them to spend away their ability to pay the judgement on appeals. Maybe forcing either the entirety of the judgement to be paid into a more traditional escrow account, or a payment plan for the judgement to be accepted and that paid into escrow, before an appeal can be started?

Any way you cut it though, I can’t fault this chuckle fuck for playing the court game but I’m fucking incensed the court is enabling it.

Thanks for explaining more about the shitty us "justice" system

The entire country is captured. Trumps reelection is almost guaranteed at this point.

This sucks, but a few points are at least worth mentioning:

  1. Of the five judges listed on the order, annoyingly slim as it is, three are Democrats and two are "nonpartisan" but with resumes in the public sector and public interest law.

  2. Most states actually have a cap on appeal bonds, often around $50 million or less. NY doesn't have one, but all the same thinking, for good or for ill, that would lead to a statutory limit might influence the appeals court here. Among them is precluding additional litigation from forcing a fire sale.

  3. In an appeal like this, the court has to at least conceptually imagine that there's some possibility of success, and that with a defendant who is leveraged AF and not nearly as liquid as he boasts, there is only one bite at the apple when seizing and selling the assets to satisfy the judgment. If the court is convinced that this amount, well into nine figures, will occupy the vast majority of his liquid assets and insure some plausible compensation for the plaintiff, and the other assets aren't going anywhere, then it's not insane to demand a bond more in line with the available liquidity.

Trump is definitely getting the "rich business owner with lots of lawyers" treatment here, and that's certainly something you could criticize about the American legal system, but I don't think we're seeing some completely inexplicable abuse of existing civil procedure. The orange turd still gets the due process that a President Turd would deny to so many others.

TL;DR: it's possible the only thing the Appeals Court is saying is that ol' Donny really can't get the bigger bond and that Trump Tower will still be there to seize later.

I heartily disagree on these limits being to prevent a fire sale. They're to protect the wealthy from a fire sale. You or I would be forced into a fire sale in a heartbeat for a million dollar judgement. And then into debtor's prison when we turn out to be normal people who don't have a million dollars of assets lying around.

I can't say I'm surprised by this, and while I hate Trump, it's not for the cynical reason. It's going to be quite the nightmare unwinding those transactions. My understanding is that NY doesn't have a right of redemption after a Sheriff's sale. While this is judicious, I would prefer Trump be given no quarter.

And this is why I love Lemmy. Where else would you get a well reasoned explanation like this?

Five comments down, maybe, but I'll take what we can get.

Oh, okay, cool, so the justice system cares if you say it's unfair and you can't afford the judgment now? Because I'm pretty sure that's news to most people.

We wouldn't want to ruin his future. He has real potential!

Oh sorry, wrong case.

If they started auctioning off and selling his properties to make money, it would turn over a lot of really dark stones full of other people's criminal activities.

He's being protected by the club he's in, not because they like him but because they would be in trouble if they didn't.

More over, the precedent set here is beneficial to other wealthy individuals.

Other wealthy individuals, even those who sit on the complete opposite side of Trump politically benefit from the appeals court's judgement. It really is just corruption all over.

And there goes every last shred of hope I had for America.

The country is fucking doomed, and it'll drag the rest of the world into chaos with it. We're all fucked.

We were fucked long before this clown showed up. If anything we should be grateful that he shine the light on it by being so obvious about it.

Time to start dragging billionaires into the streets.

Yes; no, well maybe partly; yes. Respectively

It hurts me that I wrote grateful.. if I had considered my reply longer than I took to take a dump I wouldn't have written it that way. My apologies

I understand what you meant, but I also think we shouldn't be grateful to him for anything really.

Edited to add that I meant to begin by saying "apology accepted".

Banks, mega corporations, (fake) rich people get bailed out — Republicans: Nothing.

Working-class doing public service get minor bailout with student loan forgiveness — Republicans: WHOA, NOW....

Do these judges have to explain their decision? Is there an opinion published somewhere? I'd love to understand what context brought them to this conclusion, I've never heard of someone gaining leniency because they couldn't afford the fine.

There's an old saying in Tennessee, I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, "don't do the crime if you can't do the time"...

The published order is just that. It doesn't explain the why or whatever just "We are reducing the bond amount and not removing the other limitations of the ruling"

“…because Project 2025”

It's actually a pretty liberal court that made the ruling.

Neoliberal club. Fascist conservative club. It's all the same fucking club, and you ain't in it!

There's an old saying in Tennessee, I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee

You know we're fucked when I'm nostalgic for a time when Republicans were just dumb fucks trying to make their friends rich, rather than dumb fucks trying to destroy our democracy.

I guess there's a problem in that he needs the money in order to appeal.

Like everyone should have some right of appeal, and saying someone can't appeal because they're broke could be used to manipulate the justice system.

He still has to pay the whole amount if he loses the appeal.

The whole point of the bond is to prevent pointless appeals in the court (which I have to assume this will be) and, more importantly, serves as a guarantee the defendant will fulfill their obligations and pay at the end of an appeal failure, which ... trump is absolutely a risk of not paying. And these judges have now effectively cast the guarantee aside.

Perhaps, but do you agree everyone should be able to appeal?

Sure, and frankly there is nothing preventing trump from appealing. However an appeal is not a green light to ignore or discard the lower court's decision in the interim. Specifically outlined in the NY Court website

"Filing a Notice of Appeal does not stop or stay the winning side from taking steps to collect or enforce the judgment from the lower court. To put the collection on hold, you may have to ask the court for a stay. You may have to pay an amount of money equal to the judgment amount, called an undertaking, to the court while the appeal is being decided. "

And further to the point, I'd still like to understand what context he's appealing under that was so compelling. This is a financial case, the facts and accounting figures supporting the judgement will presumably not change, leaving little room for a successful appeal.

Ultimately I'm of the opinion this is a frivolous appeal, and trump will not find the full amount owed at the end of it. By lowering the bond the appeals court has neutered the purpose of securing the bond in the first place, which can only to lead to more delays and difficulties collecting in the future.

It if were you or me or anyone else but trump, you know damn well there'd be ZERO leniency of any kind.

I don't know what sort of incredible powers he has, but he definitely has. Maybe I'm coming around to see him not as a traitor or an idiot anymore, but sort of a superhero with powers I'm just beginning to appreciate. Maybe I will vote for him after all - he simply can't be held down or held responsible, and that's pretty amazing.

Trump is a man who prior to 2015, was a close personal friend of both of the Clintons.

As I understand it, Ivanka is still a close friend of Chelsea Clinton.

He might act like he's not part of the elite power clique. But he's absolutely part of the elite power clique.

The way this shit goes, I'm not going to be surprised if Trump will declare to be ineligible to be judged on the basis of being a sovereign citizen

A sovereign citizen couldnt run for President

Just like someone involved in an insurrection couldn't, right?

I meant because they are trying to be sovereign from the US of their own accord, therefore adjacent to the US political system and not part of it, again, by their own choosing.

Oh, I'm sure he's apt enough in mental gymnastics to come up with some bullshit reason to run for president while also being absolutely independent from the jurisdiction

The sovereign citizens of which there are a surprisingly huge number (I never will know how they got licenses or jobs here since they claim they aren't actually citizens of our country) would definitely support that.

I have lost all faith in our justice system.

“Justice system” is a misnomer. “Legal system” is more apt.

I have lost all faith in our justice system.

There was never reason to have faith in it to begin with.

It's a justice system that began with maintaining the institution of chattel slavery and continues to maintain the institution of slavery through the prison system, and convicting black people more often and for longer sentences.

Theres been a lot of shit over the last few years that really have put into perspective how if you have enough money in America you can get away with anything and this is maybe in the top 3, this guy should be in state prison and the management of the cases and responses have made it so he's been a free man for nearly a decade, what the fuck.

Pretty timely considering Boeing just executed their whistleblower with no consequences.

Damn. I was really hoping this would be a ray of light for the next year and a reduction in the level of election insanity we're going to see.

Instead, just more fuel for the flames.

Another damning moment for mankind, a true shitshow that demonstrates how utterly worthless men truly are through and through in every way.

Violence would solve this problem.

It would, but it would also create lots of new problems. I would regain some hope for humanity, though, if the people finally woke up to the reality of their 350,000,000:1 ratio against their oppressors…

but it would also create lots of new problems.

Much bigger and even harder to solve problems.

Look at any of the places which have recently or regularly chosen violence.

Yeah, people forget America needed a revolution to become America when the system was failing.

Start putting together a leadership team for as new American rebellion, and at least one out of every ten recruits will be a fed.

People say he's being treated different, and he is. Special treatment in his favour.

He should have been forced to sell all of his properties prior to his presidency.

Shit. Shit. Shit shit shit. I knew some asshole stunt like this would happen. I said it at the very beginning - trump will never pay for any of the despicable things he's done, and he'll never ever set foot in prison.

I do not know what sort of strings he has attached to other people's spines, I do not know what sort of tremendous fear they have of him or what strange powers he must have - but I knew, I KNEW some horseshit like this would come along and fuck up the whole fucking process.

THe judicial system in the U.S. is an utter piece of total crap.

How funny would it be if he can't raise the $175 million either.

He's already recently stated he has the full half billion in cash on hand, just refuses to pay in cash, and bonds companies won't touch him.

They didn't give him a break because he can't pay, they gave him a break because he refuses to.

He's also a well known liar. There's no reason to believe he has the full amount in cash

In a situation like this, he should be held to his word.

He's the one that's said he has the funds available; so why should he get a break?

It'd be different if that figure was pulled from thin air; but it was based off of his own valuations.

I'm not saying he should get any kind of break. If he can't put up the money they should start seizing property. I'm just not convinced he has $400M lying around.

They gave him a break because he put half the supreme court in there, which is all downwards pressure.

Are there Supreme Court Justices in the New York court of appeals? (I haven't taken the time to look) can they even serve both?

This particular one isn't a federal case.

He's already recently stated he has the full half billion in cash on hand

He says lots of things.

Almost all of them are lies, and/or contradict other things he has said.

Dianne T. Renwick, Anil C. Singh, Lizbeth González, Bahaati E. Pitt-Burke, and Kelly O’Neill Levy

What was their actual individual motivation?

So we can all just do whatever we want without consequences right? Or is it still just rich fascists the rules don’t apply to?

Rule of law either doesn't apply or is very lenient to rich people.

The application of the rule of law being dependent on the size of one's bank account has long been a proud bipartisan tradition in this country.

What appeals court? I thought Trump had to post $464 million in order to even appeal. How did he manage that?

He has to post the bond so they don't start seizing his property during the appeal. It's basically putting the fine plus interest in a separate account during the appeal to make sure you're good for the money if you lose the appeal. Otherwise he could have gone on with the appeal, but could lose Trump Tower without the bond posted.

Ahhh, thanks. I'm from Europe, so it's hard for me to even begin to understand the US legal system.

And specifically what he did here was appeal the order telling him to get his bond for the "main" appeals process.

I'm from Europe, so it's hard for me to even begin to understand the US legal system.

Beyond what they see on TV police/courtroom dramas, most Americans don't understand it very well either.

What a great country you guys have...

Every other country in the world reading that comment.

The one universal truth is that the same rules do not apply to the rich and powerful, no matter where you live.

How republican do I have to be to get light sentences for crime because Im trying to ***** a *** in the ****

Seriously? This is surprising to people? How did you not see this coming?

It's not surprising, just disappointing. I've learned never to get my hopes up.

Not surprised at all, but obviously dissapointed.

What does it say about our society and justice system if we'd be more surprised if he actually was held accountable, as opposed to getting off lightly.

You know, it's almost like the justice system has... I dunno. Problems or something.

Actually he can't pay that much either!

Poor Trump!

Okay, I figured it out! How about all his republicans buy his golden shoes, I wash his car, and give him a personal back massage? Rob you fix up his fence, Stephen, you and Mary go and vacuum under all his beds. Frederick and Stacey will do the cooking for month.

How does that sound? And I also want to give him 5 bucks. Is that okay for bail?

But, but, but, I only like girls! , I couldn't possibly! And my neck and knees hurt! Fine! Okay but only the top and only for a minute. Rob will take second turn when he's done with the fence.