Fourteen dead babies, I don't care about her. She's fucked. But what fucking hospital has 14 dead babies? Are you saying you cant identify a pattern after 4 or 5?
The heads of the hospital should be gutted.
Call that place "The dead baby hospital" because wtf.
Multiple doctors came forward to say that their concerns were ahot down by hospital administrators. They cared more about a bad mark on their record than a someone harming newborns under their watch.
Administrators should be gutted in a public square. And let's not stop with these ones.
Are administrators actually going to face any punishment?
The senior nurse who was in charge of her was suspended the other day. No idea if any others will face consequences.
Two of the administrators have since retired. One of which decided to bugger off and retire in France.
They should retire in prison.
She worked in neo natal. That is already "at risk" births. Premature. Addicts. All sorts of things that are risky to begin with. I'm not justifying anything she or the administration did. However it is to be expected at times in those units. Sounds heartless but my family was in those departments for many years.
Okay but the mortality numbers for her unit pretty clearly and obviously pointed to the fact that something was happening here other than the natural deaths one would expect in a NICU
Absolutely. However it took more time because it's an inherent risk for the unit.
They said other than when she was working, and before and after she left the number was around or close to 0-2 per year, so pretty obviously an anomaly and certainly worthy of an investigation. The doctors that reported her were punished by the administrators and actually forced to apologise to her so I think they are pretty guilty in the circumstances.
She murdered 7 babies and attempted to murder 6 others.
Please read the article instead of just the headline.
That's still ridiculous!
I know, how do you manage to “attempt” to kill an infant? They aren’t exactly known for being durable.
She alternated between giving them insulin, injecting air into their bloodstream, and overfeeding them. The babies that recovered most likely did so either because they weren't in bad shape to begin with, or because they coded while a competent doctor or nurse was on call and able to stabilize them, or because of luck. One of the babies she attempted to kill survived, but has severe cerebral palsy and requires a feeding tube. There's no definitive way to say that the nurse's attempts on her life caused her condition, as she was already a preemie and at risk for multiple complications, but I'd say the lack of durability definitely led to at least some lasting damage for some of the babies that recovered.
What was the purpose of over feeding them?
I'm not a doctor so this is me just trying to piece together info from other sources, but it sounds like overfeeding can cause a lot of issues that premature babies aren't developed enough to deal with on their own, like severe gas and bloating. Depending on how delicate the baby is, this might lead to a cascade of problems that are difficult to diagnose, treat, and recover from. With babies that underdeveloped, even something as benign as eating too much can become deadly.
But again, not a doctor, and a quick Google search turned up a bunch of complicated articles that don't really clarify. I just know that it was one of her strategies for worsening the babies' condition.
Depending on why the infant is in the neonatal unit, specific food can have extremely deleterious effects. Disorders of metabolism are rare, but not as rare as you think, and most are controlled with specific diets. So if she purposely fed the wrong food, and in large amounts, it could absolutely kill certain populations. If an otherwise 'healthy' infant, the most likely cause due to overfeeding would be vomiting, and then aspiration of the vomitus. Infants, especially neonates, are very unlikely to be able to protect their airway. Even if a patient is already on the operating table, survival rates of aspirating vomitus is only 50% or so. That's why you don't eat/drink before surgery, btw.
Thank you for the clarification, but my God, how awful. Those babies must have been in so much pain and distress before they died.
I'm guessing to kill them
Oh okay it's fine then.
Oh how fucking silly of me that she murdered 7 babies instead of my original number.
Lots of people die in hospitals every day. Even babies. That's why they collect data, in order to see a pattern when it emerges.
Looks like she might have targeted higher risk babies so it's harder to catch, and of course many murders seem to be really good at faking feelings and appearing innocent. One part in the article makes me think all the victims were premature births, and that some of them were especially at risk due to that.
I'd say deaths in hospital aren't rare. Especially in premature babies where survival could go either way. If you're going to murder babies, a hospital is probably the place where you're going to go unnoticed the longest.
That said, the timeline is pretty damning. Over a decade she'd still be doing it, but this was all in the space of just over a year.
It's weird to me the level of deranged guilt her diary entries show.
We are responsible for our actions. I just wonder wtf was going on in her head that allowed her to keep doing it. She hated herself for it. Like a lot.
That's the sort of evil I understand and can cope with. There is something wrong with her we don't have the capacity to understand. Some chemical imbalance or growth pushing on her brain in a certain area.
It's the people with nothing wrong with them but allow evil to happen like the hospital administrators that gets me.
A lot of time there is nothing visibly wrong with them and their background doesn't explain it
Sadly, we don't understand the brain yet. Otherwise perhaps certain things could be visible. I know that there is some research how activity patterns in brains of "psychopaths" difffer from other people. But it is all still on shaky grounds.
You'd have to look at what she got out of it emotionally. Other hospital killers did it for a combination of "They were a burden", "I was putting them out of their misery" and a sense of godlike power of life and death. Some started doing it for seeming mercy reasons but got so comfortable with doing it that they started killing patients because they annoyed them.
I think you're perhaps ignoring what I said about the content of her entries.
She suffered from her actions, emotionally. A lot. It's quite clear she got nothing positive emotionally from it:
"I am evil I did this”.
The note added: “I don’t deserve to live. I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them.
“I am a horrible person.
“I hate myself. There are no words. I am an awful person. I pay every day for that.”
“I panic I’ll never have children. I don’t deserve mum and dad. The world is better off without me. I did this, why me.”
“No one will ever know what happened and why . . . I’m a failure.”
“I am a problem to those who do know me . . . it would be much better for everyone if I just went away. I just want to be happy.”
“Kill me” and “Help me” along with the names of some the babies she murdered.
In one, Letby scrawled: “I can’t do this anymore. I can’t live like this.
“No one will ever understand or appreciate what’s like.”
She got something out of it though. No one was forcing her to do it so regardless of her entries at the moment of choice she wanted to do it. She may have felt regret or self-hate after the fact but it is clear that those feelings eventually passed.
Regret or self-hate can just as well turn into driving factors to continue doing harm to others. When you are mentally ill, logic starts completely bending and finally making a 180 degrees turn from normal
There's a whole lot of mental health issues in there.
I read the article and didn’t see any diary stuff. Do you have a link to it?
The note added: “I don’t deserve to live. I killed them on purpose because I’m not good enough to care for them.
“I am a horrible person.
“I hate myself. There are no words. I am an awful person. I pay every day for that.”
“I panic I’ll never have children. I don’t deserve mum and dad. The world is better off without me. I did this, why me.”
“No one will ever know what happened and why . . . I’m a failure.”
“I am a problem to those who do know me . . . it would be much better for everyone if I just went away. I just want to be happy.”
“Kill me” and “Help me” along with the names of some the babies she murdered.
In one, Letby scrawled: “I can’t do this anymore. I can’t live like this.
“No one will ever understand or appreciate what’s like.”
I don't think it's possible to really understand a person that is that level of abnormal. Or rather, when you have empathy in a somewhat normal range, I think it's really hard to understand how not having empathy works.
The whole thing is unconscionable imho. Obviously firstly, for her to prey on, and hurt/ murder newborn babies? I can’t wrap my mind around that. At all.
From the admins at the hospital ignoring the worried reports from the physicians who worked on the unit WITH her. The administration went so far as to demand those same physicians go to mediation with her and write out apology letters. Admins accepted her complaints of harassment over the doctor’s concerns that there was a pattern to the infants collapsing. If the DR’s refused to do that they were threatened to lose their jobs!
Then you have the fact that she was in a caregiver profession. Generally the public trusts caregivers/doctors. No one wants to believe that if you have a family member in the hospital, they are at risk of being MURDERED! That’s supposed to be a safe space from the world!
No one will be able to repair the public’s perception of the medical profession if medical professionals kill their patients.
This whole incident is terrifying. Reading the article, it linked to other articles, which I of course followed… that was a eye opening experience. I had no idea that there were multiple occasions that this had happened. Counting babies, adults, and the elderly. I can’t make sense of this.
Honestly the administration should be doing just as much time. Somewhere in their cushy offices, they ran the numbers and decided that the life of multiple infants was worth less than their brand. I wish them all a very long stay in gen pop.
I remember watching a (at least somewhat) factual documentary about another serial killer who murdered elderly people in care. Apparently, even when there are multiple suspicions, even from previous employers, some hospitals refuse to take action. In the documentary it was speculated that this is because it's apparently hard to get enough personnel. So if someone does an otherwise good job on the surface they won't look closer. Hospitals are a business, and management only cares whether or not it's profitable.
That’s scary. I read some articles last night following links after this article. From nurses who like the thrill of “saving lives” (causing patients to code so they can be the “hero”). To doctors killing to get written into their patients’ wills. To one male nurse who killed his elderly patients, by all accounts simply because he hated geriatric women?
The crimes were years ago, but the system needs to be fixed. If a medical professional is suspected of causing harm to their patients, then they should be investigated while being suspended (or removed from direct patient care during the investigation).
If ultimately the accusations are unfounded, then great. However for those times the investigation shows wrong doing. That’s when shit needs to get real. Police need to be called in. Medical/nursing board of licensing should be involved. Otherwise, a hospital should be liable for lawsuits for wrongdoing in my opinion.
They should be suspended entirely instead of removed from direct patient care because they could still cause harm indirectly
Also.just like bad cops, bad nurses can jump around the country as well. This also makes it difficult to stop these people from committing more crime. It's almost the same scenario as well, in regards to people being aware of what's going on . I wanted to add veterans to your list as well. Search Kirsten Gilbert..
Ok I know this bitch should die but this judge should do at least three months in a level two for this fit.
Just because yank Judges got no style.
That's literally his work clothes, including the wig. That's just what judges in the UK wear. He probably ain't a fan either.
And practically all the courts in countries that used to be part of the Empire/Commonwealth wear pretty much identical outfits. The whole justice system was founded in the UK.
Sometime I swear the UK is stuck in a previous century
tradition: ancestral peer pressure. fuuuug that
He looks like he steals candy from 18th century children.
What? He's a little dandy boy. Nothing wrong with that.
There's a lot of hate here that I can empathise with and I'm trying to not take calls for her to commit suicide or be murdered/ tortured in prison literally. It's difficult to express hate verbally without reference to physical violence that underscores it. There's sentiment here that life in prison isn't enough and I tend to agree, but not in a way I've seen talked about here or anywhere else.
Letby should be imprisoned for life, no question. But that shouldn't stop us asking more questions about what happened here. Do we treat Letby's murders as isolated, unique cases and expect them to never be repeated? Lock her away and continue business as usual? It's possible that things aren't so simple and we need to look into how somebody like Letby got away with so much for so long and maybe also why she began doing something quite so horrific.
Mental illness is an unfortunate reality to come to grips with because we are steadily recognising that it is caused by relationships an affected person has with their environment. That means there is a share of responsibility in all of us and the systems/ institutions we have built to make sure this does not happen again and that we identify it before it's too late.
It's entirely likely that Letby will turn to self harm, or other extreme outcomes of poor mental health. We can't ask anyone to sympathise with her after what she has done, but we can hope to treat mental illness better in the future and offer help to those who need it, before it's too late. And I don't mean too late in the sense of killing people, because that's not what all mentally ill people do.
There should definitely be better trigger points added to healthcare and warnings to signify either errors of judgement or malice. My opinion of the management involved in this case is also very low. The parents also deserve justice with the failings in that area.
The mental health side of things should be taught in schools to let people know when things are abnormal. No one tells you that it is normal to have some of the syndromes that affect all of us in our daily lives. Without realising there is an issue, people can easily blow things up and create spirals that are hard to get out of. Mental health should not just be down to professionals, just like physical health having some awareness of good/bad can go a long way.
I appreciate the leveled comment. It's difficult to separate one's more reactive side of anger with the reasonable side. There's a reason the family of victims of crimes can't be jurors. I, too, would not be able to hold it together if I was in the position of those impacted by this person. Still, like you said it's vital we look at it from a position of a civilized society. The lens of Justice should not be focused on vengeance or punishment — both proven ineffective in terms of recidivism. Rather, the true pillars of justice involve: Separation from society, and rehabilitation (when possible). Arguably deterrence, but that is questionable.
Someone like this should not just be sentenced to life imprisonment (as a precaution to civilized society), but also subject to scientific study from both life and after death in autopsy. Every. Single. Part of her makeup should be dissected from checking for tumors (Tower shooter), analyzing her brain chemistry, relentlessly studying her past and psychoanalyzing her.
Insulting the userbase by implying anyone calling for the death penalty is angry? Check
Bringing up mental illness when it has nothing to do with the case? Check
Implying the baby murderer is mentally ill with no basis whatsoever? Check
"Hot" (in their minds) closeup pic of young 20-something baby murdering nurse horse-faced bitch smiling? Check
Looks like we got ourselves a SIMP in here, boys
The point is to be more nuanced and actually get to the bottom of why she did what she did. By default, people don't have the capacity to just straight up murder helpless children. If someone does that, something is seriously wrong. What happened in this case? Is it mental illness? Is that nurse this incompetent (unlikely)? Why was this left unchecked for so long since doctors have seemingly voiced some concerns in the past?
Even if turns out to be mental illness, that doesn't mean that she should go back to business with a warning, she is still a threat to other people.
By default, people don't have the capacity to just straight up murder helpless children.
Whoa there, citation needed. Most of us don't do it, but we all have the capacity to do it.
Capacity as in mental capacity. People don't just wanna murder people. Even if you think you're in the right, killing people kinda makes people feel bad.
By default, people don’t have the capacity to just straight up murder helpless children.
😆
What happened in this case? Is it mental illness?
😆 😆 😆
You people are a fuckin' riot
Hot
Dude, splooge one off please, your eyes aren't working
I am not the one who thinks she's hot. It's these losers simping after a horse-faced baby murdering bitch you need to talk to.
I don't think I do.
Implying the baby murderer is mentally ill with no basis whatsoever?
Did you actually just type that with no sarcasm like baby murderer doesn’t give reasonable suspicion of mental illness?
Are you that desperate for pussy that you are defending a baby murderer with no sarcasm?
These bizarre attacks are silly, no one said they want to sleep with her - people are just pointing out that emotional responses are easy and feel good but they don't help - you're full of hate and I understand that but it's not going to stop the same thing happening again, we're saying that stopping the same thing happening again is more important.
Baby serial killer? Oh….she’ll die in prison all right.
Yea that seems likely
Strangely enough there is another baby murdering nurse in UK prison called Beverley Allitt who in 1993 killed children the same way. She's been inside for 30 years and is actually eligible for parole since she hasn't received a whole life order (i.e. to die in prison). Doesn't mean she'll get parole but expect an outcry if she ever does.
I hear prison is really fun for child murderers.
After everything she has done, why did they choose a picture where it looks like she signed with a team?
Because she's white, young and hot, which automatically earns her sympathy points from everyone else. Look at all the people calling her mentally ill when if she was a dude, they'd be calling for his blood too.
I hate this mentality, how dare they post a picture of her looking normal when she should be drooling blood and screaming about how she loves to kill babies in every picture
She did look normal, that's a huge part of what let her get away with it for so long - everyone has this idea that only ugly people with mean faces do crime but that's not how reality works - people aren't all typecast and coded for their role, we need to get used to the reality that a normal and nice seeming person could be awfull on the inside.
I think their point is that this should be the case, a normal photo, but it only seems to be the case for certain demographics. A black person wouldn't have gotten a nice, normal photo.
She's the white color
Before reading, I initially thought that maybe there was a reason like she could have mental health issues or that she could be just someone extremely incompetent at her job... But the more you read, the more this makes me want to vomit... It's truly sickening!
She's essentially a serial killer so I was looking into her past. Her parents were extremely over bearing, clingy and guilt trippers who were always smothering her, so I'm sure that contributed, but there's gotta be more in her past that led her to this.
My parents are overbearing, clingy,and guilt trippers; I haven't committed any murders yet.
Exactly. They still can't point to a person and say "This person will kill and this one won't". It seems to require a confluence of a number of things. A violent childhood, a socially stunted development, opportunity, a lack of empathy and a psychopathic mentality, an ability to compartmentalize (good family man at home, violent psycho outside of it). Even then it still isn't a guarantee.
They do it because they choose to. Regardless of all other circumstances, the choice is always theirs.
But that's not helpful, it might be true in some sense but then it is for everything - would you rather wallow in hate or try to understand and prevent similar things happening in the future?
"yet"
Some people are just born wrong.
I'd like to think that someone who's born wrong can still be "right" if they have loving and nurturing parents who get them high quality mental healthcare. It's much nicer than having to accept it's totally out of our control.
That phrase is a bit of a grey area based on context and can be both highly bigoted and offensive if used in the context of hate speech and / or discrimination
Oh my god
extremely over bearing, clingy and guilt trippers
Yah, I don't any parents like that. looks around the room
But, no. This apparently happened in 2015. Creepy how both cases are so similar.
No kidding... How strange they both were UK serial baby killers. And Beverley Allitt was convicted before her 25 birthday if I looked at it right. She was caught in '91, so she was doing it as a 23-year-old girl...
ETA: they were both mid-twenties when the murders occurred. I don't know why I got hung up on that, it is just shocking to me that they were so young and doing something so deplorable. I just imagine some older deranged woman doing something like that. Either way...unreal.
Apparently this one is eligible for parole now, after receiving 13 life sentences.
Bitch is going to commit suicide in jail and that's way too good for her. She should live with it every day and be beaten daily. Even that's too good for her. Makes my blood boil
I'm trying to understand the downvotes you have. Like yeah, what you're saying is extreme. But murdering goddamn infants is pretty fucking extreme. If there was ever a time to wish someone pain, it would be now.
Some people aren't mental and don't wish to inflict pointless harm on others.
If its wrong to harm people, its wrong to harm those who harm people too.
Youre gonna get downvoted for not validating the 2 minutes' hate. There are an awful lot of people who are very excited to find someone they can get away with doing violence against.
Well yeah, it's a great stress reliever, AND you rid the world of a burden. Win/win.
It's almost like you're actually in the wrong and what they're doing is normal. It's almost like the problem is you
This might surprise you mate but it's not normal to fantasise about inflicting bodily harm to criminals.
Might want to talk to someone about that.
Public hangings used to be the social event of the week, on what basis exactly are you determining normality?
The average experience today rather than 200 years ago
That's like saying we should be tolerant of republican's fascism. Some things shouldn't be allowed even if you sorta need to act like them towards them to get it to stop.
No its nothing like that. Shes been given 14 life sentences, how is that tolerating anything??
Some people aren’t mental and don’t wish to inflict pointless harm on others.
Those are the ones upvoting him.
If its wrong to harm people, its wrong to harm those who harm people too.
Alright, let me explain it to you as if you were a five year old:
No one thinks murdering babies is wrong because harming anyone is wrong.
They think it's wrong because they're babies.
It's a specific case.
If harming others was always wrong, it would be impossible for her to be arrested and imprisoned.
Actually, the nurse wasn't even using violence to kill the babies so trying to use nonviolence to shame others for wanting that vile bitch of a murderer beaten in prison doesn't track either.
Justify it however you want, these are not the sort of things we should be decided based on emotion.
"This crime really triggered me so we should influct great harm on the perpetrator" is pretty fucked up man.
The fact that you think that's the reason why I and many others (I am very clearly not alone in my thinking) believe what we do tells us all we need to know about you. You never even asked me the reason why I believe the way I do, you just constructed a stereotype of me and people like me you built in your head based off dumb things others told you and it's completely warping your judgement. Learn some empathy.
You are calling for empathy in the same breath as calling for someone to be beaten lol
Paradox of tolerance at work
That's not how this works yo. The monster is in prison, she will stay in prison till she's dead. No more need for extrajudicial punishments. No need to torture or to murder her.
There is nothing gained from hurting her further except a bunch of unwashed brainlets get hateboners; further it opens a whole can of worms of extrajudicial, punitive violence.
I swear you guys heard someone say that once and now think you can use it to justify any unrelated bullshit.
Who is "you guys" and what the fuck are you on about?
People blindly parroting "paradox of tolerence" in this case without understanding what it means.
Not at all lol
Inflicting pain on someone is not stopping them from harming others.
Making premeditated violence illegal but then punishing it with violence is retarded.
Isn't exactly pointless when someone's committed a crime against humanity -- and murdering those newborns is absolutely a crime against humanity.
Stopping her from hurting anyone else is the point. Torturing her just because you can get away with it is pointless.
It would be for revenge, not pointless torture. We can certainly argue if revenge is pointless or not though.
oof
Aye there's a word for people who take pleasure from the suffering of others...
Schadenfreude would be the term for the actual pleasure derived. And I'm not going to pretend that it's morally right or ethical to enjoy. But it is human to desire vengeance and revenge. Wishing harm to someone who murdered newborns is one of the least morally wrong instances of vengeance.
Plus, I hold that moral absolutism is an even greater evil. This is why the paradox of tolerance exists, and why the same goes for pacifism. It's impossible to have a pacifistic society unless you are willing to use violence to dissuade violence. You would probably say that means there's no difference between the two individuals, and I would have to vehemently disagree. Intent and context are incredibly important.
It's called a good person who cares about the lives of innocent children. The word you're looking for is good
Nah the word is sadist.
So torturing her is going to bring those people back to life? No? So then theres no point to it other than sadism.
Sadism would be torturing an innocent. She's far from that. And she won't spend her life in prison so she won't even get the punishment inflicted by the law. They'll kill her before long. Why all this grace reserved to an angel of death?
Because decency is for everyone or it's not decency.
This moral purism of theirs is hypocritical. It can only exist if there are good people who are "impure". The threat of violence for instance is what keeps wanton violence at bay. Someone can be as pacifistic as they like, but at the end of the day, you aren't going to solve all violence in the world with clever words.
the threat of violence is what keeps wanton violence at bay
Given that the threat of violence did absolutely nothing to keep this violence at bay I'd love for you to expound upon this point further.
This isn't to say that I'm arguing for torture as retribution, but this almost comes across as you arguing against actions having consequences, which is a wholly different argument, and I understand you probably don't actually support that, but I'm just going off what's written. I'm actually kind of with you in terms of the torture thing, like I'd probably just put her in solitary and leave it at that. But yeah, as with tolerance, a peaceful society has to have ways to deal with violence, lest it become a violent society.
This has nothing to do with the paradox of tolerance. Not even slightly
for one she's been arrested, charged and given 14 life sentences and is going to spend her entire life in prison. So she has faces consequences for her actions.
and for two she is not a threat to tolerant society, shes a serial killer.
I dont think you actually know that the paradox of tolerance means.
Yes of course I have, how else could I have said "this isn't that" without knowing about it lol?
Yea, I'm generally a well composed guy, but it's hard to keep cool in this instance
There usually isn't much that makes me literally speechless or at a loss for words, but after I read more specific details further down in this thread it actually happened to me. I also can't remember the last time my eyes actually widened in horror at reading something.
Simps sniffing after that young hot nurse pussy is all it is. They don't care she killed babies. They care about that hot pic on the front page.
Absolutely, people can down vote to oblivion but I stand by what I said. Days old babies, I cannot comprehend this. It's that reason I may sound a smidge extreme, for a very laid back easy going person this has awoken a great anger in me.
And it should, but that anger should be directed not to further hurt this sick animal, but towards all the checks and balances that should have caught this earlier - administration that refused to look into it after her colleagues raised concerns, the implicit trust we put into people in these careers, and the lack of screening that lets people like this into these jobs in the first place.
I don't think she'll get the chance to do that considering what I've heard about what inmates do to murderers
Reddit would suspend your account for this comment even though it is perfectly reasonable. But I also think why waste time and money on this trash and just throw her into a furnace or something.
Apparently she wrote in her private diary stuff like "I am evil for doing this" and "I am a horrible person for doing these things". IMO this points more towards a massive mental health disorder rather than someone purposely doing evil acts to achieve their own selfish desires. It sounds like she had very unwanted intrusive impulses and she was unable to stop herself from acting on them.
Don't get me wrong, her being aware that her acts were wrong doesn't give her a get out of jail pass. The awareness of her drives being wrong means the onus was on her to get help to prevent her from acting on those drives. But IMO it does make clear that there was no motive, it was likely caused by a compulsion mental illness. This is all IMO though.
The fact that she recognized how horrible the things she did was and didn't immediately yeet herself off the roof just makes it worse
You're not helping the stigma against mental illness here
People who are awful and know it should kill themselves
they said while being awful intentionally
Leaving an internet comment and murdering double digit newborns is an interesting equivalence
Most mental illness doesn't involve murdering anyone. I'd say Ms Murder Nurse is the one really not helping the stigma against mental illness.
As someone with mental illness I'm actually more offended that we're pinning that as the cause.
You're not helping the stigma against mental illness by automatically assuming she committed the murders as a result of it. You are not a psychologist, more importantly not her psychologist, so you do not have the authority to make that kind of a determination.
Claiming she committed the murders because she is mentally ill is an ableist act.
Being mentally ill doesn't mean you're going to murder anyone, certainly not babies.
You're ableist, and unempathetic.
dude, just stfu.
No. I will not be silent in face of blatant ableism.
It's not fucking ableism. You're jumping through hopps to invent shit the OP didn't say just to have an argument. Get a grip.
It absolutely is and you ought to be ashamed of yourself for defending it. The mentally ill are hurt deeply when you use stereotypes that they are violent, dangerous and lack agency to absolve evil monsters of their actions. What you're doing is wrong and you need to stop.
Bitch, I am the mentally ill, that's not what he's saying, I'm not offended by his comment because he's not perpetuating the stereotype. It's not offensesibe to say that some displaying clesr symptoms of mental illness is mentally ill.
She murdered 7 infants talk to her about the stigma against mental illness.
Babies supercede mental illness in the real world.
That's a false dichotomy. We can make things better for both.
You can resurrect dead babies?
The point is that if you destigmatize mental illness then she could've gotten help for herself AND as a result no babies would've been killed. Saying "she should've killed herself" at best will do nothing, and at worst will prevent other mentally ill people from getting help for themselves, AND thus will lead to more innocent people becoming their victims.
That's assuming she committed the murders out of mental illness, which is entirely baseless and an ableist claim to make.
You are here with a clear agenda and what you're doing -- undermining the seriousness and reprehensibility of her actions by labeling it as mental illness -- is morally repugnant.
After she killed the first one there's no helping her. Offing herself and saving everyone the time and money of running her through the justice system and locking her up for the rest of her life IS the best thing she can do. The time to ask for help is BEFORE you murder someone's child. If she'd done that I'd commend here.
At a bare minimum you're missing the point. The point is that what you're saying is counterproductive to what you claim to want. Do you want to prevent similar incidents of mentally ill people hurting innocent people in the future? Then saying "she should've killed herself" has the opposite effect.
First of all, how would them just killing themselves instead of hurting innocent people not prevent them from hurting innocent people?
Second. How does saying someone who has already killed an innocent baby (or 7) should have killed herself prevent other people who have not done wrong from seeking help?
You are an unempathetic person. You don't know them and react with a kneejerk reaction. You are saying awful things. Worse yet, people who have done far less will now read your post that basically says "your mental illness made you do stuff, you should kill yourself" and they will believe you. Imagine someone thinking they are the worst person in the world because of a mistake they made. Be it lack of impulse control that lead to their marriage falling apart, or hurting people close to them due to some other illness. It's not helping anyone.
It's one thing to want to seperate her from society on account of her actions. It's an entirely different one to wish death by suicide to someone. It's not as black and white as you paint it out to be. Mental illness is a huge problem that isn't just "someone feeling sad".
According to this article they never conclusively determined what her motive was. There were theories that it my have been Munchausen's by proxy or simple sadism in response to seeing the families grieve, but nothing was ever proven. As for her methods, this article details them and I'll leave you to read up on that, not going to detail it here. Suffice it to say, this woman deserves to never see the light of day again.
She used her position as a nurse to intentionally kill newborns.
Shame they don't hang any more. Maybe she'll do it herself.
Better that she wastes away in prison knowing she will never be released.
There isn't a punishment anywhere close to severe enough for stains like this.
I wished it weren't so but no amount of punishment will bring the dead back nor dissuade others who might do similar as her.
Serves her right
I'm not particularly "vindictive" but these are the kinds of cases where capital punishment / death penalty seem justified
It's never justified.
It won't bring the babies back. It won't stop her killing more babies any better than prison will. It won't discourage other people from killing babies.
All it does is turn "murder is wrong" into "murder is wrong (unless I think you deserve it)"... and guess which of those most murderers believe?
A large number of people would disagree with you and they would be right to do so. Your opinion does not mean fact.
Nothing anyone does will bring those poor children back from the dead. That's not the point of justice. The point of it is to fulfill what the people think qualifies as moral righteousness. It's what the word actually means if you look it up in a dictionary, and for the majority of people, they believe the death penalty in cases like this is right and I for one can't fault them.
The point of wanting her dead isn't to bring the babies back. It's to get rid of her, permanently, as they rightfully should. We know prison isn't enough because others have cited the case of another baby murderer who is now up for parole and may be released, completely defeating the point of life sentences in jail.
murder is wrong (unless I think you deserve it)
And that's how many philosophical schools of thought work, and they are quite honestly more valid than yours. Deontology is a terrible moral outlook and cases like this is why. We can't have a moral and just society if we only judge morality by action and not by the circumstances of that action, who is affected, who commits it and why, etc.
What you're asking for is actually unempathetic, cruel, and quite honestly really dangerous for the community.
The other case of a baby killer being eligible for parole is not the same as this one - she didn't get a sentence till death, this one is.
That fact makes it all the worse.
Don't hurt yourself explaining why.
I don't have to. It's obvious to anyone who actually cares about their community and not defending baby murderers for their political agendas.
Okay, so you can't.
If you need to have someone explain to you why allowing a baby killer to go on parole -- and allowed back into society -- is bad, then the problem is not me, the problem is you. You have to put in the effort and think for yourself... though clearly you're not very good at it.
A large number of people would disagree with you and they would be right to do so. Your opinion does not mean fact.
What a hilariously self-absorbed comment. I never claimed my opinion was fact, but you tried to shame me for it anyway, while one sentence earlier acting like disagreeing with me is objectively correct.
Then you move on to presenting "eligible for parole" as "about to be released", then stating your opinion about what a life sentence means as fact.
And as the cherry atop a dogshit comment, you throw a fistful of character flaws at me, none of which you've even attempted to justify, let alone succeeded in justifying.
Hop back in your clown car and fuck off.
Then you move on to presenting “eligible for parole” as “about to be released”, then stating your opinion about what a life sentence means as fact.
Baby murderers should never be eligible for parole under any circumstances and the fact that she is is the problem. It proves that imprisonment isn't a guarantee she'll be permanently separated from society, taking away any credibility toward the claim that it's a satisfactory means to protect the community.
You just don't want to see a baby murderer be punished. That's what the real issue is. And you're vile and morally repugnant for holding that view.
And as the cherry atop a dogshit comment, you throw a fistful of character flaws at me, none of which you’ve even attempted to justify, let alone succeeded in justifying.
Your viewpoint speaks for itself. You want me to hold you in high esteem? Stop trying to manipulate other people into thinking a baby murderer shouldn't be held accountable for her actions or punished.
Baby murderers should never be eligible for parole under any circumstances and the fact that she is is the problem
Your opinion isn't fact and it definitely isn't law. But by all means, keep demeaning yourself by making it clear you don't know the difference between "life sentence" and "life imprisonment", even after someone links it to you.
You just don't want to see a baby murderer be punished. That's what the real issue is.
Nope, that's the issue you just made up because apparently you've decided to make amphetamines and BPD your entire personality.
And you're vile and morally repugnant for holding that view.
Having imaginary enemies isn't any less childish than having imaginary friends. Nobody is going to believe the fictional character you're openly building inside your head is actually me.
You want me to hold you in high esteem?
I couldn't care less and I've got no idea what gave you that impression. I'm just going to assume it's something you want me to feel, like all the other thoughts and opinions you're projecting onto me in a way that's clearly unbalanced.
Stop trying to manipulate other people into thinking a baby murderer shouldn't be held accountable for her actions or punished.
It really upset you to have your little murder fantasy criticised didn't it?
so real question what the hell would stop people from doing that??
She is not being rehabilitated and will never contribute to society in any way again. She is just costing people money for no reason. I am normally against the death penalty, but there are some cases, like this one, that make me think twice.
Idk if they even have the death penalty in the UK but in the US it's significantly more expensive to put someone to death than it is to imprison them for life. Also about a third of death penalty cases end up overturned on appeal. Which is a pleasant way of saying we get it wrong a lot. I feel like that's important to remember, because you're not just deciding what to do in this specific case. You're designing rules, not exceptions.
Capital punishment is prohibited in all circumstances in the UK, that includes times of war. It’s the same across almost all of Europe.
I totally agree for the US. I guess since I don't live there I trust the UK judicial system to be more sorted, but that is probably naive.
Even though I am against it where I live, there are still those cases where there is undeniable proof and the crimes are heinous enough to invoke the primal side of the brain. The logical side of my brain knows that it is a bad idea to give power to the state to kill people.
I just can't imagine how the family would feel in these kind of situations, and sometimes I think the justice given to them can be underwhelming. It's complicated and I find it hard to make a concrete decision to say that the death penalty is absolutely never warranted.
US it’s significantly more expensive to put someone to death than it is to imprison them for life
because of the appeals process. maybe if you guys had an actual functioning justice system over there that didnt convict and sentence people to death because of their skin colour things would be different, but as it stands, THAT is why its more expensive.
No-one hear is arguing over the actual guilt of this lady. A death sentence isnt going to be accidently put on the wrong person. Will she appeal? probably. She can do the same for life in prison too. Its gonna cost a lot no matter what.
In the end she is a worthless, valueless monster the world would be better for if she wasnt consuming oxygen and resources, although pretty sure the death penalty isnt a thing in the UK anyway so the point is moot
What are you getting mad at him for? He's agreeing with you
wasn't getting mad at him mate, not sure what gave you that idea
maybe if you guys had an actual functioning justice system over there that didnt convict and sentence people to death because of their skin colour things would be different,
Sounds big mad to me
Eg, he's right about it being racist AF over here. Shit, we onced sentenced 3 kids to death because a child had been murdered and those 3 kids lived near the place where it happened, listened to dark music and made everyone feel uncomfortable. Google "west Memphis 3", we didn't actually end up murdering any of them but it wasn't for lack of trying.
It's his overall objective in the thread that's the problem. His problem is also not my problem. I'm perfectly content to laugh while he seethes.
not mad, pointing out facts champ. sorry, American justice system is 3rd level inconpetant, if that fact makes you mad, think about why
Why is contributing to society a prereq for living? People aren't just a means to your ends. Even terrible ones.
I would argue that contributing to society can at minimum mean to be a person of good standing who participates without causing trouble. You could be as useless as a retiree since your 20s and still have contributed to society.
You are right. Contributing is not a requirement. I never said that it was, but I could have worded it better. It's more the fact that she did completely unforgivable things and will obviously never be rehabbed. I'm torn on the idea, but people like her just seem like a waste of air.
Also, how does me implying that most people contribute to society make people a means to my ends? That part of your comment makes no sense. I don't give a fuck what people do as long as they don't mess with other people.
I don't know if she can be rehabilitated, but one of my catch phrases is nobody is beyond redemption. I don't know if it's true, but I think it is an important belief. Practically, I'd rather keep a monster alive if it saves a few damaged people with some hope of reforming. I also think that cultivating a mindset of compassion does good things for me as far as how I view and treat other people.
I recognize there's more nuance to your views, but statements like that are made all the same by people who don't have very complicated views of things. I debated four peeps at once at work today that were in support of the death penalty, so I might be a bit biased due to that.
The death penalty is generally MORE expensive than prison for life, and if you don't want it that way your giving the government monetary incentive to give out more death penalties. Which is obviously a HORRIBLE IDEA
I agree generally don't really support the idea except in a few extreme cases where it is a solid case against a monster like this.
Life scentences are not the only reason I'm against death scentences
There's also the off chance that someone is innocent, look at the innocent people jailed in america because of racism for example
This bitch deserves to rot in jail
When you use the death penalty on domeone who turns out to be found innocent you can't get them back, their body is gone
Oh no! Your pennies!
I don't have any money, personally. I said she was costing other people money, not me. Oh no! Your reading comprehension!
i am pretty vindictive, and i think sending a 33 year old to prison for the rest of her natural life seems like a much worse punishment than a quick death.
This is one reason why I generally don't support the death penalty. Life in prison is a bigger punishment.
In this case it would almost be letting her off the hook, rotting in prison seems a better punishment.
She is clearly mentally unfit and should be in Bedlam.
Well deserved.
Lucy Letby-Gones would be a pretty sweet name.
I couldn't understand it at first and British name-ified it to "let bee goans"
A freaking IRL Annie Wilkes
I hope she spends the rest of her life being tortured by mentality I’ll DOJ guards.
14 life sentences isn't "life in jail" in the UK, where murdering 270 people isn't too much for "compassionate release."
So... society does not accept post-natal abortions... yet.
Hopefully she will get killed in prison in the most painful way possible
Death penalty through crucifiction should be implemented in these cases.
I don't think she did it.
Is this because you find it hard to believe that anyone could do such a thing? This is the attitude that meant it took so long for Letby to be caught, as the senior hospital managers ignored warnings from doctors, seemingly on the assumption that she must be innocent, because the alternative was too awful to contemplate. But some people really are capable of such awful acts. Fortunately they are relatively rare.
One dead baby, a tragedy.
Two dead babies, a concern.
Fourteen dead babies, I don't care about her. She's fucked. But what fucking hospital has 14 dead babies? Are you saying you cant identify a pattern after 4 or 5?
The heads of the hospital should be gutted.
Call that place "The dead baby hospital" because wtf.
Multiple doctors came forward to say that their concerns were ahot down by hospital administrators. They cared more about a bad mark on their record than a someone harming newborns under their watch.
Administrators should be gutted in a public square. And let's not stop with these ones.
Are administrators actually going to face any punishment?
The senior nurse who was in charge of her was suspended the other day. No idea if any others will face consequences.
Two of the administrators have since retired. One of which decided to bugger off and retire in France.
They should retire in prison.
She worked in neo natal. That is already "at risk" births. Premature. Addicts. All sorts of things that are risky to begin with. I'm not justifying anything she or the administration did. However it is to be expected at times in those units. Sounds heartless but my family was in those departments for many years.
Okay but the mortality numbers for her unit pretty clearly and obviously pointed to the fact that something was happening here other than the natural deaths one would expect in a NICU
Absolutely. However it took more time because it's an inherent risk for the unit.
They said other than when she was working, and before and after she left the number was around or close to 0-2 per year, so pretty obviously an anomaly and certainly worthy of an investigation. The doctors that reported her were punished by the administrators and actually forced to apologise to her so I think they are pretty guilty in the circumstances.
Kill a bunch of babies? Jail forever.
Ignore someone killing babies to keep your £250,000 a year job safe? That's just good neoliberaling.
How is it liberal, neo or not, dumdum?
@Potatos_are_not_friends @Lanky_Pomegranate530
She murdered 7 babies and attempted to murder 6 others.
Please read the article instead of just the headline.
That's still ridiculous!
I know, how do you manage to “attempt” to kill an infant? They aren’t exactly known for being durable.
She alternated between giving them insulin, injecting air into their bloodstream, and overfeeding them. The babies that recovered most likely did so either because they weren't in bad shape to begin with, or because they coded while a competent doctor or nurse was on call and able to stabilize them, or because of luck. One of the babies she attempted to kill survived, but has severe cerebral palsy and requires a feeding tube. There's no definitive way to say that the nurse's attempts on her life caused her condition, as she was already a preemie and at risk for multiple complications, but I'd say the lack of durability definitely led to at least some lasting damage for some of the babies that recovered.
What was the purpose of over feeding them?
I'm not a doctor so this is me just trying to piece together info from other sources, but it sounds like overfeeding can cause a lot of issues that premature babies aren't developed enough to deal with on their own, like severe gas and bloating. Depending on how delicate the baby is, this might lead to a cascade of problems that are difficult to diagnose, treat, and recover from. With babies that underdeveloped, even something as benign as eating too much can become deadly.
But again, not a doctor, and a quick Google search turned up a bunch of complicated articles that don't really clarify. I just know that it was one of her strategies for worsening the babies' condition.
Depending on why the infant is in the neonatal unit, specific food can have extremely deleterious effects. Disorders of metabolism are rare, but not as rare as you think, and most are controlled with specific diets. So if she purposely fed the wrong food, and in large amounts, it could absolutely kill certain populations. If an otherwise 'healthy' infant, the most likely cause due to overfeeding would be vomiting, and then aspiration of the vomitus. Infants, especially neonates, are very unlikely to be able to protect their airway. Even if a patient is already on the operating table, survival rates of aspirating vomitus is only 50% or so. That's why you don't eat/drink before surgery, btw.
Thank you for the clarification, but my God, how awful. Those babies must have been in so much pain and distress before they died.
I'm guessing to kill them
Oh okay it's fine then.
Oh how fucking silly of me that she murdered 7 babies instead of my original number.
Lots of people die in hospitals every day. Even babies. That's why they collect data, in order to see a pattern when it emerges.
@Potatos_are_not_friends
Ok.
Looks like she might have targeted higher risk babies so it's harder to catch, and of course many murders seem to be really good at faking feelings and appearing innocent. One part in the article makes me think all the victims were premature births, and that some of them were especially at risk due to that.
I'd say deaths in hospital aren't rare. Especially in premature babies where survival could go either way. If you're going to murder babies, a hospital is probably the place where you're going to go unnoticed the longest.
That said, the timeline is pretty damning. Over a decade she'd still be doing it, but this was all in the space of just over a year.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/ng-interactive/2023/aug/18/lucy-letby-timeline-attacks-babies-when-alarm-raised
It's weird to me the level of deranged guilt her diary entries show.
We are responsible for our actions. I just wonder wtf was going on in her head that allowed her to keep doing it. She hated herself for it. Like a lot.
That's the sort of evil I understand and can cope with. There is something wrong with her we don't have the capacity to understand. Some chemical imbalance or growth pushing on her brain in a certain area.
It's the people with nothing wrong with them but allow evil to happen like the hospital administrators that gets me.
A lot of time there is nothing visibly wrong with them and their background doesn't explain it
Sadly, we don't understand the brain yet. Otherwise perhaps certain things could be visible. I know that there is some research how activity patterns in brains of "psychopaths" difffer from other people. But it is all still on shaky grounds.
You'd have to look at what she got out of it emotionally. Other hospital killers did it for a combination of "They were a burden", "I was putting them out of their misery" and a sense of godlike power of life and death. Some started doing it for seeming mercy reasons but got so comfortable with doing it that they started killing patients because they annoyed them.
I think you're perhaps ignoring what I said about the content of her entries.
She suffered from her actions, emotionally. A lot. It's quite clear she got nothing positive emotionally from it:
She got something out of it though. No one was forcing her to do it so regardless of her entries at the moment of choice she wanted to do it. She may have felt regret or self-hate after the fact but it is clear that those feelings eventually passed.
Regret or self-hate can just as well turn into driving factors to continue doing harm to others. When you are mentally ill, logic starts completely bending and finally making a 180 degrees turn from normal
There's a whole lot of mental health issues in there.
I read the article and didn’t see any diary stuff. Do you have a link to it?
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-66104004
I don't think it's possible to really understand a person that is that level of abnormal. Or rather, when you have empathy in a somewhat normal range, I think it's really hard to understand how not having empathy works.
The whole thing is unconscionable imho. Obviously firstly, for her to prey on, and hurt/ murder newborn babies? I can’t wrap my mind around that. At all.
From the admins at the hospital ignoring the worried reports from the physicians who worked on the unit WITH her. The administration went so far as to demand those same physicians go to mediation with her and write out apology letters. Admins accepted her complaints of harassment over the doctor’s concerns that there was a pattern to the infants collapsing. If the DR’s refused to do that they were threatened to lose their jobs!
Then you have the fact that she was in a caregiver profession. Generally the public trusts caregivers/doctors. No one wants to believe that if you have a family member in the hospital, they are at risk of being MURDERED! That’s supposed to be a safe space from the world!
No one will be able to repair the public’s perception of the medical profession if medical professionals kill their patients.
This whole incident is terrifying. Reading the article, it linked to other articles, which I of course followed… that was a eye opening experience. I had no idea that there were multiple occasions that this had happened. Counting babies, adults, and the elderly. I can’t make sense of this.
Honestly the administration should be doing just as much time. Somewhere in their cushy offices, they ran the numbers and decided that the life of multiple infants was worth less than their brand. I wish them all a very long stay in gen pop.
I remember watching a (at least somewhat) factual documentary about another serial killer who murdered elderly people in care. Apparently, even when there are multiple suspicions, even from previous employers, some hospitals refuse to take action. In the documentary it was speculated that this is because it's apparently hard to get enough personnel. So if someone does an otherwise good job on the surface they won't look closer. Hospitals are a business, and management only cares whether or not it's profitable.
That’s scary. I read some articles last night following links after this article. From nurses who like the thrill of “saving lives” (causing patients to code so they can be the “hero”). To doctors killing to get written into their patients’ wills. To one male nurse who killed his elderly patients, by all accounts simply because he hated geriatric women?
The crimes were years ago, but the system needs to be fixed. If a medical professional is suspected of causing harm to their patients, then they should be investigated while being suspended (or removed from direct patient care during the investigation).
If ultimately the accusations are unfounded, then great. However for those times the investigation shows wrong doing. That’s when shit needs to get real. Police need to be called in. Medical/nursing board of licensing should be involved. Otherwise, a hospital should be liable for lawsuits for wrongdoing in my opinion.
They should be suspended entirely instead of removed from direct patient care because they could still cause harm indirectly
Also.just like bad cops, bad nurses can jump around the country as well. This also makes it difficult to stop these people from committing more crime. It's almost the same scenario as well, in regards to people being aware of what's going on . I wanted to add veterans to your list as well. Search Kirsten Gilbert..
Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. Good.
Ah. I see what you did there.
Ok I know this bitch should die but this judge should do at least three months in a level two for this fit.
Just because yank Judges got no style.
That's literally his work clothes, including the wig. That's just what judges in the UK wear. He probably ain't a fan either.
And practically all the courts in countries that used to be part of the Empire/Commonwealth wear pretty much identical outfits. The whole justice system was founded in the UK.
Sometime I swear the UK is stuck in a previous century
tradition: ancestral peer pressure. fuuuug that
He looks like he steals candy from 18th century children.
What? He's a little dandy boy. Nothing wrong with that.
There's a lot of hate here that I can empathise with and I'm trying to not take calls for her to commit suicide or be murdered/ tortured in prison literally. It's difficult to express hate verbally without reference to physical violence that underscores it. There's sentiment here that life in prison isn't enough and I tend to agree, but not in a way I've seen talked about here or anywhere else.
Letby should be imprisoned for life, no question. But that shouldn't stop us asking more questions about what happened here. Do we treat Letby's murders as isolated, unique cases and expect them to never be repeated? Lock her away and continue business as usual? It's possible that things aren't so simple and we need to look into how somebody like Letby got away with so much for so long and maybe also why she began doing something quite so horrific.
Mental illness is an unfortunate reality to come to grips with because we are steadily recognising that it is caused by relationships an affected person has with their environment. That means there is a share of responsibility in all of us and the systems/ institutions we have built to make sure this does not happen again and that we identify it before it's too late.
It's entirely likely that Letby will turn to self harm, or other extreme outcomes of poor mental health. We can't ask anyone to sympathise with her after what she has done, but we can hope to treat mental illness better in the future and offer help to those who need it, before it's too late. And I don't mean too late in the sense of killing people, because that's not what all mentally ill people do.
There should definitely be better trigger points added to healthcare and warnings to signify either errors of judgement or malice. My opinion of the management involved in this case is also very low. The parents also deserve justice with the failings in that area.
The mental health side of things should be taught in schools to let people know when things are abnormal. No one tells you that it is normal to have some of the syndromes that affect all of us in our daily lives. Without realising there is an issue, people can easily blow things up and create spirals that are hard to get out of. Mental health should not just be down to professionals, just like physical health having some awareness of good/bad can go a long way.
I appreciate the leveled comment. It's difficult to separate one's more reactive side of anger with the reasonable side. There's a reason the family of victims of crimes can't be jurors. I, too, would not be able to hold it together if I was in the position of those impacted by this person. Still, like you said it's vital we look at it from a position of a civilized society. The lens of Justice should not be focused on vengeance or punishment — both proven ineffective in terms of recidivism. Rather, the true pillars of justice involve: Separation from society, and rehabilitation (when possible). Arguably deterrence, but that is questionable.
Someone like this should not just be sentenced to life imprisonment (as a precaution to civilized society), but also subject to scientific study from both life and after death in autopsy. Every. Single. Part of her makeup should be dissected from checking for tumors (Tower shooter), analyzing her brain chemistry, relentlessly studying her past and psychoanalyzing her.
Insulting the userbase by implying anyone calling for the death penalty is angry? Check
Bringing up mental illness when it has nothing to do with the case? Check
Implying the baby murderer is mentally ill with no basis whatsoever? Check
"Hot" (in their minds) closeup pic of young 20-something baby murdering
nursehorse-faced bitch smiling? CheckLooks like we got ourselves a SIMP in here, boys
The point is to be more nuanced and actually get to the bottom of why she did what she did. By default, people don't have the capacity to just straight up murder helpless children. If someone does that, something is seriously wrong. What happened in this case? Is it mental illness? Is that nurse this incompetent (unlikely)? Why was this left unchecked for so long since doctors have seemingly voiced some concerns in the past?
Even if turns out to be mental illness, that doesn't mean that she should go back to business with a warning, she is still a threat to other people.
Whoa there, citation needed. Most of us don't do it, but we all have the capacity to do it.
Capacity as in mental capacity. People don't just wanna murder people. Even if you think you're in the right, killing people kinda makes people feel bad.
😆
😆 😆 😆
You people are a fuckin' riot
Hot
Dude, splooge one off please, your eyes aren't working
I am not the one who thinks she's hot. It's these losers simping after a horse-faced baby murdering bitch you need to talk to.
I don't think I do.
Did you actually just type that with no sarcasm like baby murderer doesn’t give reasonable suspicion of mental illness?
Are you that desperate for pussy that you are defending a baby murderer with no sarcasm?
These bizarre attacks are silly, no one said they want to sleep with her - people are just pointing out that emotional responses are easy and feel good but they don't help - you're full of hate and I understand that but it's not going to stop the same thing happening again, we're saying that stopping the same thing happening again is more important.
Baby serial killer? Oh….she’ll die in prison all right.
Yea that seems likely
Strangely enough there is another baby murdering nurse in UK prison called Beverley Allitt who in 1993 killed children the same way. She's been inside for 30 years and is actually eligible for parole since she hasn't received a whole life order (i.e. to die in prison). Doesn't mean she'll get parole but expect an outcry if she ever does.
I hear prison is really fun for child murderers.
After everything she has done, why did they choose a picture where it looks like she signed with a team?
Because she's white, young and hot, which automatically earns her sympathy points from everyone else. Look at all the people calling her mentally ill when if she was a dude, they'd be calling for his blood too.
I hate this mentality, how dare they post a picture of her looking normal when she should be drooling blood and screaming about how she loves to kill babies in every picture
She did look normal, that's a huge part of what let her get away with it for so long - everyone has this idea that only ugly people with mean faces do crime but that's not how reality works - people aren't all typecast and coded for their role, we need to get used to the reality that a normal and nice seeming person could be awfull on the inside.
I think their point is that this should be the case, a normal photo, but it only seems to be the case for certain demographics. A black person wouldn't have gotten a nice, normal photo.
She's the white color
Before reading, I initially thought that maybe there was a reason like she could have mental health issues or that she could be just someone extremely incompetent at her job... But the more you read, the more this makes me want to vomit... It's truly sickening!
She's essentially a serial killer so I was looking into her past. Her parents were extremely over bearing, clingy and guilt trippers who were always smothering her, so I'm sure that contributed, but there's gotta be more in her past that led her to this.
My parents are overbearing, clingy,and guilt trippers; I haven't committed any murders yet.
Exactly. They still can't point to a person and say "This person will kill and this one won't". It seems to require a confluence of a number of things. A violent childhood, a socially stunted development, opportunity, a lack of empathy and a psychopathic mentality, an ability to compartmentalize (good family man at home, violent psycho outside of it). Even then it still isn't a guarantee.
They do it because they choose to. Regardless of all other circumstances, the choice is always theirs.
But that's not helpful, it might be true in some sense but then it is for everything - would you rather wallow in hate or try to understand and prevent similar things happening in the future?
"yet"
Some people are just born wrong.
I'd like to think that someone who's born wrong can still be "right" if they have loving and nurturing parents who get them high quality mental healthcare. It's much nicer than having to accept it's totally out of our control.
That phrase is a bit of a grey area based on context and can be both highly bigoted and offensive if used in the context of hate speech and / or discrimination
Oh my god
Yah, I don't any parents like that. looks around the room
Yeah, I was looking for a reason and found none. She is just sadistic.
And here I thought this was the nurse from the 90s, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beverley_Allitt
But, no. This apparently happened in 2015. Creepy how both cases are so similar.
No kidding... How strange they both were UK serial baby killers. And Beverley Allitt was convicted before her 25 birthday if I looked at it right. She was caught in '91, so she was doing it as a 23-year-old girl...
ETA: they were both mid-twenties when the murders occurred. I don't know why I got hung up on that, it is just shocking to me that they were so young and doing something so deplorable. I just imagine some older deranged woman doing something like that. Either way...unreal.
Apparently this one is eligible for parole now, after receiving 13 life sentences.
Bitch is going to commit suicide in jail and that's way too good for her. She should live with it every day and be beaten daily. Even that's too good for her. Makes my blood boil
I'm trying to understand the downvotes you have. Like yeah, what you're saying is extreme. But murdering goddamn infants is pretty fucking extreme. If there was ever a time to wish someone pain, it would be now.
Some people aren't mental and don't wish to inflict pointless harm on others.
If its wrong to harm people, its wrong to harm those who harm people too.
Youre gonna get downvoted for not validating the 2 minutes' hate. There are an awful lot of people who are very excited to find someone they can get away with doing violence against.
Well yeah, it's a great stress reliever, AND you rid the world of a burden. Win/win.
It's almost like you're actually in the wrong and what they're doing is normal. It's almost like the problem is you
This might surprise you mate but it's not normal to fantasise about inflicting bodily harm to criminals.
Might want to talk to someone about that.
Public hangings used to be the social event of the week, on what basis exactly are you determining normality?
The average experience today rather than 200 years ago
That's like saying we should be tolerant of republican's fascism. Some things shouldn't be allowed even if you sorta need to act like them towards them to get it to stop.
No its nothing like that. Shes been given 14 life sentences, how is that tolerating anything??
Those are the ones upvoting him.
Alright, let me explain it to you as if you were a five year old:
No one thinks murdering babies is wrong because harming anyone is wrong.
They think it's wrong because they're babies.
It's a specific case.
If harming others was always wrong, it would be impossible for her to be arrested and imprisoned.
Actually, the nurse wasn't even using violence to kill the babies so trying to use nonviolence to shame others for wanting that vile bitch of a murderer beaten in prison doesn't track either.
Justify it however you want, these are not the sort of things we should be decided based on emotion.
"This crime really triggered me so we should influct great harm on the perpetrator" is pretty fucked up man.
The fact that you think that's the reason why I and many others (I am very clearly not alone in my thinking) believe what we do tells us all we need to know about you. You never even asked me the reason why I believe the way I do, you just constructed a stereotype of me and people like me you built in your head based off dumb things others told you and it's completely warping your judgement. Learn some empathy.
You are calling for empathy in the same breath as calling for someone to be beaten lol
Paradox of tolerance at work
That's not how this works yo. The monster is in prison, she will stay in prison till she's dead. No more need for extrajudicial punishments. No need to torture or to murder her.
There is nothing gained from hurting her further except a bunch of unwashed brainlets get hateboners; further it opens a whole can of worms of extrajudicial, punitive violence.
I swear you guys heard someone say that once and now think you can use it to justify any unrelated bullshit.
Who is "you guys" and what the fuck are you on about?
People blindly parroting "paradox of tolerence" in this case without understanding what it means.
Not at all lol
Inflicting pain on someone is not stopping them from harming others.
Making premeditated violence illegal but then punishing it with violence is retarded.
Isn't exactly pointless when someone's committed a crime against humanity -- and murdering those newborns is absolutely a crime against humanity.
Stopping her from hurting anyone else is the point. Torturing her just because you can get away with it is pointless.
It would be for revenge, not pointless torture. We can certainly argue if revenge is pointless or not though.
oof
Aye there's a word for people who take pleasure from the suffering of others...
Schadenfreude would be the term for the actual pleasure derived. And I'm not going to pretend that it's morally right or ethical to enjoy. But it is human to desire vengeance and revenge. Wishing harm to someone who murdered newborns is one of the least morally wrong instances of vengeance.
Plus, I hold that moral absolutism is an even greater evil. This is why the paradox of tolerance exists, and why the same goes for pacifism. It's impossible to have a pacifistic society unless you are willing to use violence to dissuade violence. You would probably say that means there's no difference between the two individuals, and I would have to vehemently disagree. Intent and context are incredibly important.
It's called a good person who cares about the lives of innocent children. The word you're looking for is good
Nah the word is sadist.
So torturing her is going to bring those people back to life? No? So then theres no point to it other than sadism.
Sadism would be torturing an innocent. She's far from that. And she won't spend her life in prison so she won't even get the punishment inflicted by the law. They'll kill her before long. Why all this grace reserved to an angel of death?
Because decency is for everyone or it's not decency.
Such a being doesn't deserve decency.
"But then we're no better than them!"
This moral purism of theirs is hypocritical. It can only exist if there are good people who are "impure". The threat of violence for instance is what keeps wanton violence at bay. Someone can be as pacifistic as they like, but at the end of the day, you aren't going to solve all violence in the world with clever words.
Given that the threat of violence did absolutely nothing to keep this violence at bay I'd love for you to expound upon this point further.
Have you heard of the paradox of tolerance
This isn't to say that I'm arguing for torture as retribution, but this almost comes across as you arguing against actions having consequences, which is a wholly different argument, and I understand you probably don't actually support that, but I'm just going off what's written. I'm actually kind of with you in terms of the torture thing, like I'd probably just put her in solitary and leave it at that. But yeah, as with tolerance, a peaceful society has to have ways to deal with violence, lest it become a violent society.
This has nothing to do with the paradox of tolerance. Not even slightly for one she's been arrested, charged and given 14 life sentences and is going to spend her entire life in prison. So she has faces consequences for her actions.
and for two she is not a threat to tolerant society, shes a serial killer.
I dont think you actually know that the paradox of tolerance means.
Yes of course I have, how else could I have said "this isn't that" without knowing about it lol?
Yea, I'm generally a well composed guy, but it's hard to keep cool in this instance
There usually isn't much that makes me literally speechless or at a loss for words, but after I read more specific details further down in this thread it actually happened to me. I also can't remember the last time my eyes actually widened in horror at reading something.
Simps sniffing after that young hot nurse pussy is all it is. They don't care she killed babies. They care about that hot pic on the front page.
Absolutely, people can down vote to oblivion but I stand by what I said. Days old babies, I cannot comprehend this. It's that reason I may sound a smidge extreme, for a very laid back easy going person this has awoken a great anger in me.
And it should, but that anger should be directed not to further hurt this sick animal, but towards all the checks and balances that should have caught this earlier - administration that refused to look into it after her colleagues raised concerns, the implicit trust we put into people in these careers, and the lack of screening that lets people like this into these jobs in the first place.
Right with ya man
I don't think she'll get the chance to do that considering what I've heard about what inmates do to murderers
Reddit would suspend your account for this comment even though it is perfectly reasonable. But I also think why waste time and money on this trash and just throw her into a furnace or something.
Well you're living up to your username at least.
Fuck Reddit
Tldr/ootl... How and why did she do this?
Apparently she wrote in her private diary stuff like "I am evil for doing this" and "I am a horrible person for doing these things". IMO this points more towards a massive mental health disorder rather than someone purposely doing evil acts to achieve their own selfish desires. It sounds like she had very unwanted intrusive impulses and she was unable to stop herself from acting on them.
Don't get me wrong, her being aware that her acts were wrong doesn't give her a get out of jail pass. The awareness of her drives being wrong means the onus was on her to get help to prevent her from acting on those drives. But IMO it does make clear that there was no motive, it was likely caused by a compulsion mental illness. This is all IMO though.
The fact that she recognized how horrible the things she did was and didn't immediately yeet herself off the roof just makes it worse
You're not helping the stigma against mental illness here
they said while being awful intentionally
Leaving an internet comment and murdering double digit newborns is an interesting equivalence
Most mental illness doesn't involve murdering anyone. I'd say Ms Murder Nurse is the one really not helping the stigma against mental illness.
As someone with mental illness I'm actually more offended that we're pinning that as the cause.
You're not helping the stigma against mental illness by automatically assuming she committed the murders as a result of it. You are not a psychologist, more importantly not her psychologist, so you do not have the authority to make that kind of a determination.
Claiming she committed the murders because she is mentally ill is an ableist act.
Being mentally ill doesn't mean you're going to murder anyone, certainly not babies.
You're ableist, and unempathetic.
dude, just stfu.
No. I will not be silent in face of blatant ableism.
It's not fucking ableism. You're jumping through hopps to invent shit the OP didn't say just to have an argument. Get a grip.
It absolutely is and you ought to be ashamed of yourself for defending it. The mentally ill are hurt deeply when you use stereotypes that they are violent, dangerous and lack agency to absolve evil monsters of their actions. What you're doing is wrong and you need to stop.
Bitch, I am the mentally ill, that's not what he's saying, I'm not offended by his comment because he's not perpetuating the stereotype. It's not offensesibe to say that some displaying clesr symptoms of mental illness is mentally ill.
She murdered 7 infants talk to her about the stigma against mental illness.
Babies supercede mental illness in the real world.
That's a false dichotomy. We can make things better for both.
You can resurrect dead babies?
The point is that if you destigmatize mental illness then she could've gotten help for herself AND as a result no babies would've been killed. Saying "she should've killed herself" at best will do nothing, and at worst will prevent other mentally ill people from getting help for themselves, AND thus will lead to more innocent people becoming their victims.
That's assuming she committed the murders out of mental illness, which is entirely baseless and an ableist claim to make.
You are here with a clear agenda and what you're doing -- undermining the seriousness and reprehensibility of her actions by labeling it as mental illness -- is morally repugnant.
After she killed the first one there's no helping her. Offing herself and saving everyone the time and money of running her through the justice system and locking her up for the rest of her life IS the best thing she can do. The time to ask for help is BEFORE you murder someone's child. If she'd done that I'd commend here.
At a bare minimum you're missing the point. The point is that what you're saying is counterproductive to what you claim to want. Do you want to prevent similar incidents of mentally ill people hurting innocent people in the future? Then saying "she should've killed herself" has the opposite effect.
First of all, how would them just killing themselves instead of hurting innocent people not prevent them from hurting innocent people?
Second. How does saying someone who has already killed an innocent baby (or 7) should have killed herself prevent other people who have not done wrong from seeking help?
You are an unempathetic person. You don't know them and react with a kneejerk reaction. You are saying awful things. Worse yet, people who have done far less will now read your post that basically says "your mental illness made you do stuff, you should kill yourself" and they will believe you. Imagine someone thinking they are the worst person in the world because of a mistake they made. Be it lack of impulse control that lead to their marriage falling apart, or hurting people close to them due to some other illness. It's not helping anyone.
It's one thing to want to seperate her from society on account of her actions. It's an entirely different one to wish death by suicide to someone. It's not as black and white as you paint it out to be. Mental illness is a huge problem that isn't just "someone feeling sad".
According to this article they never conclusively determined what her motive was. There were theories that it my have been Munchausen's by proxy or simple sadism in response to seeing the families grieve, but nothing was ever proven. As for her methods, this article details them and I'll leave you to read up on that, not going to detail it here. Suffice it to say, this woman deserves to never see the light of day again.
She used her position as a nurse to intentionally kill newborns.
Yes she will. Probably before the year is out.
I mean. . . not immediately, right?
Shame they don't hang any more. Maybe she'll do it herself.
Better that she wastes away in prison knowing she will never be released.
There isn't a punishment anywhere close to severe enough for stains like this.
I wished it weren't so but no amount of punishment will bring the dead back nor dissuade others who might do similar as her.
Serves her right
I'm not particularly "vindictive" but these are the kinds of cases where capital punishment / death penalty seem justified
It's never justified.
It won't bring the babies back. It won't stop her killing more babies any better than prison will. It won't discourage other people from killing babies.
All it does is turn "murder is wrong" into "murder is wrong (unless I think you deserve it)"... and guess which of those most murderers believe?
A large number of people would disagree with you and they would be right to do so. Your opinion does not mean fact.
Nothing anyone does will bring those poor children back from the dead. That's not the point of justice. The point of it is to fulfill what the people think qualifies as moral righteousness. It's what the word actually means if you look it up in a dictionary, and for the majority of people, they believe the death penalty in cases like this is right and I for one can't fault them.
The point of wanting her dead isn't to bring the babies back. It's to get rid of her, permanently, as they rightfully should. We know prison isn't enough because others have cited the case of another baby murderer who is now up for parole and may be released, completely defeating the point of life sentences in jail.
And that's how many philosophical schools of thought work, and they are quite honestly more valid than yours. Deontology is a terrible moral outlook and cases like this is why. We can't have a moral and just society if we only judge morality by action and not by the circumstances of that action, who is affected, who commits it and why, etc.
What you're asking for is actually unempathetic, cruel, and quite honestly really dangerous for the community.
The other case of a baby killer being eligible for parole is not the same as this one - she didn't get a sentence till death, this one is.
That fact makes it all the worse.
Don't hurt yourself explaining why.
I don't have to. It's obvious to anyone who actually cares about their community and not defending baby murderers for their political agendas.
Okay, so you can't.
If you need to have someone explain to you why allowing a baby killer to go on parole -- and allowed back into society -- is bad, then the problem is not me, the problem is you. You have to put in the effort and think for yourself... though clearly you're not very good at it.
What a hilariously self-absorbed comment. I never claimed my opinion was fact, but you tried to shame me for it anyway, while one sentence earlier acting like disagreeing with me is objectively correct.
Then you move on to presenting "eligible for parole" as "about to be released", then stating your opinion about what a life sentence means as fact.
And as the cherry atop a dogshit comment, you throw a fistful of character flaws at me, none of which you've even attempted to justify, let alone succeeded in justifying.
Hop back in your clown car and fuck off.
Baby murderers should never be eligible for parole under any circumstances and the fact that she is is the problem. It proves that imprisonment isn't a guarantee she'll be permanently separated from society, taking away any credibility toward the claim that it's a satisfactory means to protect the community.
You just don't want to see a baby murderer be punished. That's what the real issue is. And you're vile and morally repugnant for holding that view.
Your viewpoint speaks for itself. You want me to hold you in high esteem? Stop trying to manipulate other people into thinking a baby murderer shouldn't be held accountable for her actions or punished.
Your opinion isn't fact and it definitely isn't law. But by all means, keep demeaning yourself by making it clear you don't know the difference between "life sentence" and "life imprisonment", even after someone links it to you.
Nope, that's the issue you just made up because apparently you've decided to make amphetamines and BPD your entire personality.
Having imaginary enemies isn't any less childish than having imaginary friends. Nobody is going to believe the fictional character you're openly building inside your head is actually me.
I couldn't care less and I've got no idea what gave you that impression. I'm just going to assume it's something you want me to feel, like all the other thoughts and opinions you're projecting onto me in a way that's clearly unbalanced.
It really upset you to have your little murder fantasy criticised didn't it?
so real question what the hell would stop people from doing that??
She is not being rehabilitated and will never contribute to society in any way again. She is just costing people money for no reason. I am normally against the death penalty, but there are some cases, like this one, that make me think twice.
Idk if they even have the death penalty in the UK but in the US it's significantly more expensive to put someone to death than it is to imprison them for life. Also about a third of death penalty cases end up overturned on appeal. Which is a pleasant way of saying we get it wrong a lot. I feel like that's important to remember, because you're not just deciding what to do in this specific case. You're designing rules, not exceptions.
Capital punishment is prohibited in all circumstances in the UK, that includes times of war. It’s the same across almost all of Europe.
I totally agree for the US. I guess since I don't live there I trust the UK judicial system to be more sorted, but that is probably naive.
Even though I am against it where I live, there are still those cases where there is undeniable proof and the crimes are heinous enough to invoke the primal side of the brain. The logical side of my brain knows that it is a bad idea to give power to the state to kill people.
I just can't imagine how the family would feel in these kind of situations, and sometimes I think the justice given to them can be underwhelming. It's complicated and I find it hard to make a concrete decision to say that the death penalty is absolutely never warranted.
because of the appeals process. maybe if you guys had an actual functioning justice system over there that didnt convict and sentence people to death because of their skin colour things would be different, but as it stands, THAT is why its more expensive.
No-one hear is arguing over the actual guilt of this lady. A death sentence isnt going to be accidently put on the wrong person. Will she appeal? probably. She can do the same for life in prison too. Its gonna cost a lot no matter what.
In the end she is a worthless, valueless monster the world would be better for if she wasnt consuming oxygen and resources, although pretty sure the death penalty isnt a thing in the UK anyway so the point is moot
What are you getting mad at him for? He's agreeing with you
wasn't getting mad at him mate, not sure what gave you that idea
Sounds big mad to me
Eg, he's right about it being racist AF over here. Shit, we onced sentenced 3 kids to death because a child had been murdered and those 3 kids lived near the place where it happened, listened to dark music and made everyone feel uncomfortable. Google "west Memphis 3", we didn't actually end up murdering any of them but it wasn't for lack of trying.
It's his overall objective in the thread that's the problem. His problem is also not my problem. I'm perfectly content to laugh while he seethes.
not mad, pointing out facts champ. sorry, American justice system is 3rd level inconpetant, if that fact makes you mad, think about why
Why is contributing to society a prereq for living? People aren't just a means to your ends. Even terrible ones.
I would argue that contributing to society can at minimum mean to be a person of good standing who participates without causing trouble. You could be as useless as a retiree since your 20s and still have contributed to society.
You are right. Contributing is not a requirement. I never said that it was, but I could have worded it better. It's more the fact that she did completely unforgivable things and will obviously never be rehabbed. I'm torn on the idea, but people like her just seem like a waste of air.
Also, how does me implying that most people contribute to society make people a means to my ends? That part of your comment makes no sense. I don't give a fuck what people do as long as they don't mess with other people.
I don't know if she can be rehabilitated, but one of my catch phrases is nobody is beyond redemption. I don't know if it's true, but I think it is an important belief. Practically, I'd rather keep a monster alive if it saves a few damaged people with some hope of reforming. I also think that cultivating a mindset of compassion does good things for me as far as how I view and treat other people.
I recognize there's more nuance to your views, but statements like that are made all the same by people who don't have very complicated views of things. I debated four peeps at once at work today that were in support of the death penalty, so I might be a bit biased due to that.
The death penalty is generally MORE expensive than prison for life, and if you don't want it that way your giving the government monetary incentive to give out more death penalties. Which is obviously a HORRIBLE IDEA
I agree generally don't really support the idea except in a few extreme cases where it is a solid case against a monster like this.
Life scentences are not the only reason I'm against death scentences
There's also the off chance that someone is innocent, look at the innocent people jailed in america because of racism for example
This bitch deserves to rot in jail
When you use the death penalty on domeone who turns out to be found innocent you can't get them back, their body is gone
Oh no! Your pennies!
I don't have any money, personally. I said she was costing other people money, not me. Oh no! Your reading comprehension!
i am pretty vindictive, and i think sending a 33 year old to prison for the rest of her natural life seems like a much worse punishment than a quick death.
This is one reason why I generally don't support the death penalty. Life in prison is a bigger punishment.
In this case it would almost be letting her off the hook, rotting in prison seems a better punishment.
She is clearly mentally unfit and should be in Bedlam.
Well deserved.
Lucy Letby-Gones would be a pretty sweet name.
I couldn't understand it at first and British name-ified it to "let bee goans"
A freaking IRL Annie Wilkes
I hope she spends the rest of her life being tortured by mentality I’ll DOJ guards.
14 life sentences isn't "life in jail" in the UK, where murdering 270 people isn't too much for "compassionate release."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdelbaset_al-Megrahi
So... society does not accept post-natal abortions... yet.
Hopefully she will get killed in prison in the most painful way possible
Death penalty through crucifiction should be implemented in these cases.
I don't think she did it.
Is this because you find it hard to believe that anyone could do such a thing? This is the attitude that meant it took so long for Letby to be caught, as the senior hospital managers ignored warnings from doctors, seemingly on the assumption that she must be innocent, because the alternative was too awful to contemplate. But some people really are capable of such awful acts. Fortunately they are relatively rare.