I can't believe this is the one thing this congress has actually managed to do. We just want healthcare
I want both.
Healthcare!?! Who needs healthcare when Congress is giving us our god given freedom of domestic surveillance capitalism, which is the freedomist freedom that ever freedomed, you filthy communist!
So anyway, I started violating civil liberties... PEW PEW
You'll take your overpriced medicine from your out of network pharmacy and you'll like it. At the fake markup price. And good luck getting that ultrasound, they're going to code the billing wrong so instead of it being $40 it's $1000. That's freedom talking.
And good luck getting that ultrasound, they’re going to code the billing wrong so instead of it being $40 it’s $1000.
🎶 Ain't that America! Home of the free baby! 🎶
Bald eagle screeches
You pick up what Uncle Sam is throwing down!
I wonder how many of these lawmakers will be invested in the company that swoops in and saves the American public?
For real. You know Pelosi is already investing.
If she’s investing at the same time you’re getting the information, she missed the best time to buy. She might have hedged her bets and bought early
Fun fact: Congresspeople can legally inside trade, but the rest of us cannot.
Politicians should be banned from stock market. Total conflict of interest.
Eight Democrat Senators agree with you, and cosponsored a bill in September that died at introduction.
if we keep electing people trying to maintain the status quo, then it'll never happen
It’s a catch-22. To get elected, you need to learn to manipulate within the system. Once elected, you know how to leverage the system, so why would you change it?
The best chance we’ll have for systemic change will come when boomers die off. That shouldn’t discourage efforts today, but impart some hope for the future.
I want to believe that the most change will happens when boomers are gone, but I don’t trust that the new era of politicians won’t get caught up in the game.
Read twice and referred to the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.
What does that mean?
It wasn’t put to a vote after being read aloud on two separate introductions. It was then forwarded to the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee where it went to die.
They don’t review it and then hand it back to congress?
If they see value in the bill they can mandate a vote. That was over six months ago, so I wouldn’t hold my breath.
they're probably all sucking the teat one way or another, even at the lowest levels.
Good Work just recently put out a video on this very topic. Informative and hilarious as usual!
I'd be fine if they were allowed to invest in things like mutual funds so that they could take advantage of the market without being able to do insider trading of a specific stock.
that would be better, but they could still invest in specific sectors or industries.
Yep, and maybe that's somewhat acceptable, but we could also confine it to diversified mutual funds meeting specific criteria.
Edit: confine, not congratulations
Congratulations!
But yeah you gotta limit it
That’s not true. It’s still illegal even though they get away with it. You’re thinking of bribery lobbying.
According to the STOCK Act of 2012, they could be brought up on charges for a trade performed after gaining knowledge of a pending change in legislation that would affect the value of a stock, prior to the legislation being publicly enacted. The SEC just hasn’t charged them.
What they do is not legal, they just live above the law.
Just to clarify. Insider trading is illegal but it is not illegal for politicians in Congress to use the information they obtain from their jobs (such as through classified meetings) to engage in stock market trades.
It’s not a failure of the law. It’s a failure of the SEC for not enforcing it.
MYTH: Members of Congress are exempt from insider trading laws.
FACT: Both a Congressional Research Service Report and House Administration Committee memo indicates that Members of Congress are subject to the same insider trading rules as the general public.
That’s simply not true. They have no exemption to insider trading laws. It simply comes down to trade timing.
The way the law is written, they could be brought up on charges for a trade performed after gaining knowledge of a pending change in legislation that would affect the value of a stock prior to the legislation being publicly enacted. The SEC just hasn’t charged them.
What they do is not legal, they just live above the law.
If everyone doing it gets away with it, then is it actually illegal?
Yes. It is. They just need to be arrested and prosecuted. I agree that it should be taken more seriously, considering that it’s against the law.
No one has ever been prosecuted in the decade and change that it has been illegal, despite frequent violations.
That doesn’t change the law. It’s simply evidence that Congress lives above it. Seven Democrat Senators cosponsored a bill in September to ban the practice entirely. It died at introduction.
Fun fact: Everyone with hundreds of millions+ in holdings either trades with insider information or pays others to do it, because our metrics and enforcement for insider trading are a gallows joke.
Pathetic watching ancient, feeble rich people about to return to the dust from whence they came still frantically positioning to boost their ego scores.
It's as if they believe their preferred invisible sky mommy/daddy will accept a bribe of earthly currency.
I would rather chill in my basement.
it's an addiction
Don't worry everyone, it's just pelosi's 3rd cousin doing the investing so that makes everything totally cool and totally legal.
Healthcare? Nah, let's fight about it for decades and never give people anything meaningful. Education? Nah, let's make our people go neck deep into debt and still fight about it for decades. Ban TikTok? Hold my bribery, you got it. Gimme 24 hours and you got it, boss.
We can't solve real issues because then we couldn't keep the American populace overworked, sick, and unable to fight back.
You don't want healthcare. Because we said so.
Its all to get around passing a real privacy law with teeth.
lmao, they don't want a real privacy law, they want to have a monopoly in spying on Americans.
Not only that, they want to have a monopoly on on what kind of media content gets delivered to americans.
Just as a reminder, we have been 'fighting for 15' since 2012. But when it comes to leveraging foreign companies with bans to force them to sell to US oligarchs we can move at blazing speed through the least functional congrss in recent history. There are two very different Americas depending on how much money you have.
Least functional Congress in recent history
Too bad we can't ban Meta, Twitter, and Snapchat while we're at it.
won’t happen
Where do you think the FBI gets their domestic terrorist intel from 😂
TikTok will cut a deal to send your dick picks to Greenbelt.
This is not a ban and it was never meant to be. They just force tiktok to sell the US market to a US company. Said US company will continue the platform just like it is at the moment, just with a bit more of that sweet American propaganda mixed into it. Tiktok won't be gone, all that data will just go to the NSA instead of the CCP, that's all they wanted.
China says they're not selling TikTok, which makes it a ban, which is excellent news, actually.
Seriously! Ban everything that is bad for people! That has never backfired ever
I mean, remember when we banned all those really bad and dangerous horror comics and nearly collapsed a whole industry of artists, publishers, and distributors for an entire generation so we could feel morally superior about our own hypercritical actions and interests?
Even though i dont think banning tiktok is a good idea purely because of the concept, those boards are funny. "Tiktok changed my life for the better"
They're also all printed, and with the same font. I'm assuming it's a stock photo, but if that's from a real protest I don't trust those protestors.who the hell gets a protest sign printed?
Its because the company literally paid shills to stump for them in person, call Congress, etc.
They paid for lobbyists!?! Holy shit hold the presses!
literally paid shills
No *one outside of some influencers were paid lmao. People contacted Congress but they weren't paid, and a quick Google search brought up zero result of people being paid *outside of the influencers. So I'd love to see where you're sourcing this from.
Edit: Correction - about 30 influencers were paid to visit events for Tik Tok. I'll rescind saying that literally no one was paid: that's point is wrong. My main point was that average users weren't paid to call into Congress. And the vast majority that called in or have talked out against the ban did so of their own volition rather than being paid as implied by OP's comment
A lot of people started their businesses on Tiktok. The Tiktok algorithm is actually way better than that of Instagram to reach your target niche. A lot content creators and marketing exes do realize this.
I don’t understand the mentality of users, of course of obviously older generation here, that realize Tiktok did in fact change a lot of people’s lives. It’s not just an app for dancing.
Let’s not forget the Tiktok Shop section.
Imagine licking the boots of any corporate like this LOL.
I believe they are talking about a specific community that has formed over TikTok, a very anticapitalist and cosmopolitan one, and not about the platform itself.
If your algorithm is favoring that content, your short videos will be full of people talking about all things wrong in our global state of affairs; alternatives and temporal solutions (that happen to harm corporations, ironically because the information is becoming popular thanks to one, so I guess it's the ladder to get to the rooftop); global situations that are not talked or barely talked on regular news (like Congo, Palestine, etc.); the truth behind Western propaganda and lies, especially the ones against populations and ideologies (e.g., "this country doesn't prosper because they're [whatever]" vs "we exploited and condemn this country to scarcity for decades and lied about it"); etcetera. In my time there, I've learnt a couple things.
I know that these content creators will find another platform if TikTok goes down. Lemmy has shown me that social media can be free of corporations, but that's something many people are not aware of yet, especially since the techy people that could explain it on TikTok are not there.
So... yeah, TikTok has some interesting sides content-wise. There's even the rumor that this is one of the reasons they want it banned in the U.S.
I mean, it isn't a ban. It requires they be owned by Americans. Those others are already compliant, unfortunately.
Twitter is owned by Musk, he's from South Africa, so we can force him to sell no?
I don't think it's where you came from but whether you're a citizen and most importantly if the government can apply regulations and or investigate(and maybe somewhat control) your company. I think Elon qualifies there, though he seems to break rules all the time so I really wish they would.
Right, again, this feels more like control by the us gov, and less about protecting its people
Yes please
Youtube, amazon & ebay then or am I just greedy?
Most of these would be far better off being broken up.
Yes, eBay and TikTok are the same.
can we ban or move YouTube shorts elsewhere while we are at it?
"The Chinese oligarchs are taking over!" - US oligarchs probably
US oligarchs most definitely
This comment section is astounding.
If you think it’s good that congress passed a ban of a social media platform tied to a bill funding two foreign wars you’re either a fed or delusional.
Seriously. The real solution is comprehensive privacy protection and consumer information export controls for all companies operating within the US.
This whole thing is just going to give an American company the capability to use Tik Tok to spy on people and control information, which is barely better.
And then they'll likely sell the data to China anyway. Data brokers exist and make a fuck ton of money on us.
I'm just pointing and laughing at the dopamine addicts. We've lost so many better internet things by now and the same people who thought I was weird for caring are now crying over tiktok.
All three of these pieces of legislation are what a Real True American would support. If you refuse to endorse these bills, we're going to have to note it on your social credit score.
Real true Americans do love blowing up brown people that's true
That's been the American legacy for a very long time.
Supporting Israel's genocide is nothing I would have voted for given the choice.
From what I understand of Ukraine's situation, I'm happy to support them.
If social media apps exist to slurp up as much user info as possible, and they do, then it makes sense to be concerned about the government that they're subject to.
Why is it okay for domestic companies to collect the same data and sell it to China, then?
This shouldn't just affect foreign companies if it's about data collection. It should have been an actual privacy bill. US citizens' privacy will be no better after this.
It's not ok.
But the fact is that China, North Korea, Iran, and Russia are adversaries of the United States, and the US government is justified in its concern.
They didn't seem to care much when Cambridge Analytica happened, and that was a foreign adversary. So what's different here?
The United Kingdom is not an adversary of the United States. In fact it's one of our closest allies. But, if anything, that suggests this law isn't enough, not that it's too much.
I meant that the data they collected was breached by a foreign adversary, thought that was pretty clear but guess not.
And the fact that a foreign adversary obtained this information was very bad, agreed? Clearly, it makes sense to take steps to keep that kind of information out of adversarial hands.
Yes, my point was this only affects one of them. It doesn't fix the root of the problem, because that's not the bill's target.
In fact, if TikTok remains, and does get banned, it just makes it so they no longer have to listen to the US government for anything.
I probably shouldnt be celebrating this but I am. I fucking despise Tiktok with a passion, I hate its users, its creators, I hate the short form content trend it started and its algorithm based content delivery systems that every other app copied but worse, I hate the sexualisation of minors and peddling that content to pedos, I hate the clout chasing in general, I hate tiktok trends and "challenged". and I hate the general brainrot it has caused.
What are you celebrating, exactly? TikTok isn't going away, it's just going to be sold to American investors.
At the very least they will have to split tiktok since I doubt the CCP will let them sell the whole thing, nor will they want to.
Best case scenario they pull out of the US entirely and then maybe some other western countries also ban it.
Some bills don't have teeth. It sounds like this one does. What do you think would happen if ByteDance doesn't comply?
It would be ineffectually banned in the US and Bytedance would continue to rake in money worldwide from not-the-US?
The US population represents ~4% of the world.
Yes, the U.S. population represents 4% of the world, but what about in the economic world?
You're saying people in the US would keep using it if it were banned in the US but still available in the rest of the world? How? It wouldn't be available on app stores, and the website would be blocked by American DNS servers. Most TikTok users aren't tech savvy enough to get around bans.
Just removing it from the Apple App Store world crush its popularity in the US, since iPhones have much more market share here than globally.
Some users might figure out how to view the site with a web browser, but that’s where the other types of blocks come into play.
Lol, I don't agree with what the parent poster said, but your interpretation is way off!
No, he's saying that if ByteDance loses the American market, it won't matter much (it does, in my opinion.)
Lol, I don't agree with what the parent poster said, but your interpretation is way off!
Which part? How do you see things differently?
I guess you focused on the "ineffectually" part indicating that US users would "ignore the ban." Fair enough. But I think the comment is more about ByteDance not caring about losing the U.S. market.
I don't think TikTok's success outside of the US is relevant to the thread. It isn't being banned because lawmakers want ByteDance to make less money.
Not relevant to the thread, sure. But the parent poster's point was something along the lines of "like ByteDance will give a damn - they still have the rest of the world market, so they will happily accept the ban."
But you're right. Not exactly relevant to the thread.
Google > tiktok APK > install
Most of TikTok's user base is either on iOS or not tech savvy enough to figure that out.
I hate its users, its creators, I hate the short form content trend it started and its algorithm based content delivery systems that every other app copied but worse
I mean... eh? TikTok is hardly the first platform to embrace short-form video. I think the dislike for the app is overblown.
The style is reflective of the medium. No point in making big budget audio/visual multi-hour immersive experiences for a cell phone screen with some headphones. The media has to be short because its for an audience that's stealing time in the middle of a commute or during a break at school or the office. The continuous-feed style is something we just managed to achieve with high speed mobile internet (TikTok would have been impossible on a dial-up device).
Its a young medium. People are still learning what works and what doesn't. And its as prone to getting enshittified as every other venue, thanks to the endless need for higher profits.
But as someone who grew up watching Albino Blacksheep and YTMND meme-tier content and owns a DVD of Super Bowl Commercials, I gotta say that we've had a lot worse.
I hate the general brainrot it has caused
People say this shit about every medium. And there's definitely awful pieces of individual content.
But a lot of it just comes down to the hyper-sensationalist marketing. And its common to every conceivable media, from Comic Book style front page of print to the "Bwooooong!" they put in every new movie trailer.
If TikToks suck, its largely because they're aping the worst aspects of all the other established media forms.
The media has to be short because its for an audience that's stealing time in the middle of a commute or during a break at school or the offic
Except most people you speak to will tell you they spend hours in bed scrolling. Short form took off because it drives higher engagement.
And its as prone to getting enshittified as every other venue, thanks to the endless need for higher profits.
Except its never not been shitty. I wa son it back when it was musical.ly it has much of the same problems.
Albino Blacksheep and YTMND meme-tier content
Which are far more creative than doing whatever the current trend is, or a thirst trap or click bait.
People say this shit about every medium. And there's definitely awful pieces of individual content.
But with tiktok you can feel it. I hate short form but still end up scrolling mindlessly through YT shorts or IG reels. And it really does measurably affect your attention span. And it's so noticeable that the user base openly acknowledges the brain rot.
most people you speak to will tell you they spend hours in bed scrolling
This seems like an exaggeration on a number of fronts. But even if you can find folks doing this, what's the counterfactual? Would these same people be out hitting the gym or gardening or curing cancer? Or would they just be watching TV or reading a book, instead?
Short form took off because it drives higher engagement.
There are folks binging seasons worth of Netflix who would argue otherwise.
Which are far more creative than doing whatever the current trend is
They're absolutely not. Go back through the dredges of the '00s-era content mill and you'll find plenty of low-effort crap. Hell, YTMND was the pinacle of low effort crap. It was shit you could crank out in ten minutes with MS Paint and a collection of mp3 snippets.
And it’s so noticeable that the user base openly acknowledges the brain rot.
You'd have heard from folks reading tabloid news or watching reality TV decades ago.
Would these same people be out hitting the gym or gardening or curing cancer? Or would they just be watching TV or reading a book, instead?
I mean ive personally just zoned out scrolling short form and missed my chance to go to the gym before. obviously might not be the case for everyone but is certainly plausible.
There are folks binging seasons worth of Netflix who would argue otherwise.
That doesnt disprove what I said at all.
They’re absolutely not. Go back through the dredges of the '00s-era content mill and you’ll find plenty of low-effort crap.
Creativity != effort and even then most tiktok stuff is as low effort as it gets.
I mean ive personally just zoned out scrolling short form and missed my chance to go to the gym before.
I've seen people scrolling in between reps at the gym. But, again, would this not have been a problem if you'd been blogging instead of TikToking? Or Netflix binging?
That doesnt disprove what I said at all.
Multi-hour tv series are not short form.
Creativity != effort
A picture of a celebrity attached to a quote from a movie played on a loop is neither.
I’ve seen people scrolling in between reps at the gym. But, again, would this not have been a problem if you’d been blogging instead of TikToking? Or Netflix binging?
The point is short form content enables that behaviour more than other things. Its taken off specifically because its addicting and makes you think "its only a short/reel/tiktok just one more.... okay one more...etc" that you dont get with hour long netflix episodes.
Multi-hour tv series are not short form.
No one is arguing otherwise and long form content just existing doesnt disprove that short form drives higher engagement. Its like saying "Taylor swift songs are the most popular" and replying "but ACDC exists?" That doesnt disprove the original statement.
A picture of a celebrity attached to a quote from a movie played on a loop is neither.
ok
The point is short form content enables that behaviour more than other things. Its taken off specifically because its addicting and makes you think “its only a short/reel/tiktok just one more… okay one more…etc” that you dont get with hour long netflix episodes.
I simply haven't seen anything to support this claim.
No one is arguing otherwise and long form content just existing doesnt disprove that short form drives higher engagement
You haven't established anything to disprove. You've just asserted it with some personal anecdote about missing a gym appointment.
Its like saying “Taylor swift songs are the most popular” and replying “but ACDC exists?”
its algorithm based content delivery systems that every other app copied but worse
always has been, with twitter, facebook, instagram, snapchat, youtube, uhhhhh... vine, yeah, just mentioned that one. discord, tinder. literally everything.
I hate the sexualisation of minors and peddling that content to pedos
Look at what the great adpocalypse of youtube was ostensibly about, then look at what it was really about. In any case, always has been.
I hate the clout chasing in general
Always has been.
I hate tiktok trends and “challenged”
Assuming you mean "challenge", you could check out the harlem shake, the ice bucket challenge, god, there's a lot of them honestly. Gangnam style. I think probably this is just like, meme culture more broadly, which, say it with me now: always has been.
I hate the general brainrot it has caused.
And finally, always has been.
Yeah but that's just on YouTube and Facebook now. Nobody is going to regulate them in the slightest.
It is a slap in the face if they want to say it is too influential to have an adversarial state control it, at the same time leaving it fine for local billionaires to do the exact same things.
Also that damned Disco music!
The people that create TikTok content are still going to exist even if TikTok goes away. They'll just move to another platform.
I have mixed feelings. Like I’m glad we’re funding Ukraine, angry we’re finding Israel, and mixed about TikTok. I dislike the app, but that’s no reason to ban something. I think all social media has the issues associated with it except one: a foreign country controls the algorithm. Also this is standard policy for foreign companies in China and turnabout is fair play.
TikTok is nothing but a chinese psyop program to see how they can influence the public.
And boy howdy did it work, Look at all the absolutely monstrous, horrible shit people did in pursuit of tiktok trends and fame.
And nothing of value was lost. While I've railed against the unwarranted mass data collection by the NSA and other 3-letter agencies via US carriers and app creators, Tik-Tok is controlled by a foreign adversary that is actively engaging in cyber attacks and has been shown to have far-reaching data collection capacities.
People can be mad about the US policies and celebrate the banning of Tik-Tok at the same time.
Best thing to do if you disobey the first rule: don't stick your Tik in crazy.
It seems like a lot of people think moves like this are about actual national security like congress claims,
It blows my fuckin mind now damn stupid the average American is
I mean to an extent it is. America is mad China has a platform that's popular with Americans that they can't control. The effects of this were shown with the fact that America couldn't control the narrative over the Israel-Palestine issue after October 7th. So to increase national security and try to gain back the control they had they're getting rid of TikTok.
Narrative control != National Security in a Democracy.
I agree that the government attempting to have this kind of control in a democracy is wrong but it still does provide national security. Security is good but can be taken too far and in all honestly we've been very far past what's too far for a while with stuff like the Patriot act.
So the next nine months will be TikTok pushing pro Trump propaganda 24/7, mobilising the youth against Biden, only to be forced to sell by Trump anyway because everyone who hops into bed with populists gets fucked regardless.
Isn’t Trump like, famously anti-China. If TikTok was Russian I could see it.
Besides, China supports every single party causing harm to democracies.
For instance, there's a reason the German fascist "We should reopen concentration camps for Antifa"
party has more popularity on TikTok than all other German parties combined. TikTok's promotion of fascism is even worse than Musk's Twitter.
Weak, totalitarian strategy. If we’re worried about China taking over, becoming China is not the right way to fight that.
And pretending that forcing American ownership cuts out China’s influence is foolish.
I'm convinced that US lawmakers believe that the pro-gaza sentiment is coming from TikTok. The timing, the mechanism. They see themselves as no longer able to control the narrative and are blaming 'non-US' social media.
I'd like to point out that the US has been publicly going after TikTok since the Trump Administration so I'm unconvinced that the timing lines up.
I think it's more so just about controlling narratives in general. Tiktok has a lot of real time tracking of politician corruption and trades. A lot of good useful info for political activism, etc.
So did Twitter and even in the Pre-Elon days the Federal Government didn't go after it like this.
And yet it finally got the momentum to succeed now, during all these Gaza protests and when the US-Israeli mainline narratives have been starting to break down for the first time.
Here comes POS billionaire like Moron Musk to buy TikTok and turn it into Nazi propaganda machine
Nah, it'll get sold to a company registered in the US or Europe that is funded by various shell companies and private investment groups, most of which will be owned by Chinese Billionaires.
Is that picture AI-generated? The article claims it's from GettyImages and shot on Capitol Hill, but... The signs are too perfect. They all follow the name design, the text in crispy clear, the colours uniform, and the sign itself 1 atom thin.
Uh yeah, TikTok 100% coordinated those signs. It doesn't invalidate the protest, many of them use coordinated signs.
Almost like they were part of a coordinated campaign
I think we're where China was in 2005--2010: a platform that can (and does) promote values that are against the interests of our nation(s) is popular with our youth. The real dilemma is "can we do better", and these days it seems not.
History suggests that the real solution to TikTok isn't banning it; China trying to block western sites did nothing save foment resentment and foster a VPN industry. Take the next step instead - make something that does TikTok better than TikTok, then push it hard. Either that or do what is being done to YouTube/Google - run it into the ground!
No. What TikTok does is bad, and should not be continued. It's an addictive form of distraction used for brainwashing the youth. It's the worst offender of many types of social media and web content that is ruining the attention span of its users and encouraging them to prostitute their visage for the currency of Likes and Subscribes.
People should practice reading more than ogling all those vapid videos.
Isn't this unconstiutional?
Well sort of but not really. They can justify that the Chinese ownership makes this a national security issue. Which makes this 100% legal. Now the American shareholders of tiktok however just like last time they tried to do this with tiktok have a claim that their rights are being infringed. Last time they tried to do a tiktok ban the shareholders sued and won.
So it should be easier this time cuz there's precedent right?
I'm sure that if you squint in just the right way while driving past it at 80mph while eating a doughnut, it's perfectly constitutional.
I do think the general mood about TikTock, the Chinese, politicians, and society will make it legal.
Yeah thatll go over well with younger more democrat voters
Bytedance and the CPC both know how unlikely it is that TikTok will be allowed to continue operating in the US. Despite what they're saying, I don't think they actually believe they have any chance at winning that lawsuit.
They tried to stop the law from passing but now that it's been signed they're shifting strategies. They're going to go all in on using TikTok to paint the US as authoritarian and hypocritical. Their primary targets will be young people outside the US.
Looking around the world I expect this will have a lot of traction in developing countries. If you look at wonky foreign policy publication you'll see that the diplomacy nerds have spent the last decade or so worrying about developing nations realigning with China. That will probably accelerate.
They'll probably also have some success with younger Americans. Older American's will probably be unconvinced.
It obviously won't have any affect on China's ability to buy data on US citizens from any number of data brokers. I wouldn't be totally surprised if China has at least some access to data from Five Eyes.
Chinas ability to influence opinion probably won't change much either. We used to call that sort of tactic "information warfare" or "psychological warfare". Sending messages to an opponent, adversary or rival in order to confuse or demoralize them has been going on for millennia. Nations constantly work to develop new methods to do so. Tiktok isn't the first or last of such tools and any large nation has a host of other such options at their disposal.
Great analysis IMO, the US is only one of the countries they're using TikTok to influence.
I'd go even further than that. There's a whole network of tools and organizations that many countries around the world use to influence and spy on each other.
China has a whole portfolio of tools they can use for that stuff.
The US has a whole portfolio of tools they can use for that stuff.
Many of those companies are very comfortable working with both countries, or anyone else who's willing to sign a big enough check.
The control the US government experts over Meta isn't nearly as much as the CCP's control of TikTok.
Maybe. China probably has more official channels to interact with Bytedance but we have hard evidence that the US does the same thing.
FOIA provided a lot of insight into various clandestine interactions between US government agencies and private companies. There are a bunch of NGOs that get almost all of their funding from the US.
We also just reauthorized warrantless wiretapping.
The bigger issue is that Meta doesn't really care. Nobody needs to force them to conform when they can just pay them. As far as Zuckerberg is concerned USD spends just as well as RMB.
More official channels from the authoritarian CCP, seriously?
FOIA requests in the US are a wonderful thing compared to what you're able to do under the CCP's iron grip. I wonder what people could discover of they were transparent enough to allow similar information requests.
What are the odds this stands up in court? It seems like an easy legal victory for TikTok.
Normally yeah but this was a called hit by the wealthy donor class. The same ones giving million dollar vacations to the Supreme Court judges.
On what basis? The legal power of the US government to break up or otherwise force divestment of corporate assets is the basis upon which antitrust law is built. The only way this law could be overturned is it's found unconstitutional, and if that happens, you can say goodbye to the FTC.
On the grounds that they are not breaking it up because it has monopoly but because they don't like it can be used for Chinese propaganda. Which is limiting speech.
Also, they require it to be sold to non-chinese buyer, which is discriminatory.
Lmao. Then bring an anti-trust case? That power is specifically in reference to that and requires the government to prove it's case in court. Not just make a declaration.
You're missing my point.
In the case of antitrust law, the government has to prove its case in court because that's the way the Sherman Act and related laws are written, not because the constitution necessarily requires it. And it's the constitutional interpretation that matters as this is a law passed by Congress. A constitutional challenge is the only way to reverse it.
That said, TikTok is owned by a Chinese organization. So if I'm wrong and the constitution does protect corporations from forced divestment in a situation like this, it wouldn't apply to TikTok. This is much closer to protectionist trade policy and I'm not aware of any cases where such acts were found to be unconstitutional. To the contrary, as a recent example, Huawei was banned from American markets on national security grounds (see: CFIUS) and while challenged in court, those challenges were defeated. And then there's OFAC and the entire American sanctions regime (e.g. Russian asset seizures).
To be clear: I am not saying I support this ban one way or the other. I'm saying the belief that this will easily be struck down in court is misguided and that it's not an obvious slam dunk.
Huawei was banned from critical infrastructure. You can still buy their products for personal use.
And the Anti-Trust laws were written that way because that's the Due Process the Constitution demands. The executive cannot just declare something punitive. That has been the standard for over 200 years.
Also, if there aren't rights for foreigners in the US then there aren't rights for citizens. Because the loss of your rights is always just one declaration away. Which is why rights for everyone inside our borders has been the standard for 70 years.
Huawei was banned from critical infrastructure. You can still buy their products for personal use.
In what way does that invalidate it as an example?
The executive cannot just declare something punitive.
CFIUS and OFAC would beg to differ.
Also, if there aren't rights for foreigners in the US then there aren't rights for citizens. Because the loss of your rights is always just one declaration away. Which is why rights for everyone inside our borders has been the standard for 70 years.
Bytedance isn't inside your borders and the constitution doesn't protect extra-nationals. There's a reason Guantanamo Bay still exists.
The question is indeed constitutionality. But I disagree with you about any major effect on the FTC. Details matter, and this looks to be a situation where the details don't look good for the government. A court could easily find that this was handled improperly, and leave the rest of the framework as it is.
Why would a court be able to "easily find this was handled improperly"?
If this bill passes and any of you criticizes China/Russia for banning Facebook/Instagram/Twitter etc.. under the name of “lack of freedom of speech”. I will be laughing. A lot.
They should have taken the harder route. Something like requiring all software that uses algorithms to manipulate their users to share their algorithms with an auditing body, or to provide a manipulation-free environment otherwise. Every time a change is made, that change must go through the auditing body. Of course Meta, Apple, Microsoft, Google would have a hissy fit, so such a thing would never fly. Or just ban algorithms that manipulate users.
An outright ban of a particular piece of software sets a terrible precedent in an increasing Orwellian future. They didn't even ban Kaspersky when Russia attacked Ukraine, they just all said, "you probably shouldn't trust this, but keep using it if you want" and that's software that has full access to a computer at a very low level.
I have news for you, China has already banned everything and if any western app exists in China, it must have its servers in China and it only works in "cooperation" in a local chinese company(which has complete or partial ownership of the chinese part of the app). Have you ever heard the Great Firewall of China?
That's basically what the US asked of Tik Tok. They wanted their servers in the US (so they did) and then they wanted them in cooperation with a US company (which they did, Oracle I think it was). And it still wasn't enough. And now everyone is clapping as the US becomes more and more like China.
They already have. Please spend some time learning about China.
The difference is that in countries that are not dictatorships you have alternatives that don't seek to suck dry every bits of user data for profit and control.
There are services, like tor, proton, tuta, signal, session, blair, matrix, mastodon, wikipedia, and private and secure OS like graphene, calyx etc., seek to keep user data out of their control and respect user choice.
I have yet to see alternatives like these in a dictatorship. If so, I would have much less problem about China's GFW. It is annoying that I have to keep wechat in its own profile, because I have no way to communicate with people in China, or communicate with others outside when I visit China.
That being said, I am not a fan of countries banning services for no good reason, but I don't know if I want to make an exception for instagram and tiktok etc, because they are very much designed to be manipulative.
But I definitely don't think any countries should ban services that are private, essential, and don't impose manipulative algorithms, like signal, session, mastodon, tor, legitimate VPNs, GrapheneOS, etc. including wikileaks.
this exactly. china bans those platforms for the same reasons the us is banning this one. they are the same.
i don't know why everyone in this thread doesn't understand what you're saying. i think its clear
So dropout, now that you’ve been informed that China has been doing this shit for, well ever really, are you going to be critical of China?
Tiktok helped my life for the better 😀.... LOL. Sure but it is also a Chinese company that can do things to turn your life and the life of everyone around you into living hell if the government do wishes to.
I think what I would want my relationship with the Chinese country to be like is just simple transactions... I give you this money and I buy that thing. Done, end of transaction. I would like that for all phone tech companies actually. None of this shit about updates because they sold me a shit phone. None of the here's 8 features, then an update leaves you with 3 features only.
Twitter/x is owned by an unhinged South African billionaire and Middle East oil Barrons. We can discuss the theoretical abuse of TikTok, but X is damaging our democracy today.
Fuck them both!
Straight into the garbage.
Meanwhile everyone has already forget when Cambridge Analytics used Meta and Facebook to influence voters into giving us Trump with the help of Russian propaganda. The hypocrisy is so blatant
They just want only US oligarchs making money and they want to be able to censor things young people are seeing nowadays from around the world. Every other excuse is a screen.
This is possible. But at home we don't watch TV and I just blocked YouTube altogether from my kids. That website is rancid. I wouldn't let my kids on TikTok either if I was me. And I am me.
However you are absolutely right. How else will you move people who don't know any better to actually vote for you? And what sector of the population doesn't know all the shit you have done in the past 30 years than people who haven't lived 30 years and haven't paid attention in history class, not care much about it? Teenagers! That population lives on TikTok. So you are absolutely right. Because if TikTok was a porn site nobody would give a fuck except Texas.
That's the thing. I definitely think short form content, and spawning even before that, the news bite culture, has been bad for attention spans, and I wouldn't mind some sort of regulation on that with respect to kids probably. If I ever get a kid, they'll be mad at me for being one of the last of their friends to get a smart phone lol.
But the fact that it's only Tik Tok and not the just as algorithm-laden YouTube shorts, Instagram reels, and Snapchat stories kind of proves it's not for the good reasons people keep bringing up, of mental health or privacy. So they have to concoct the red scare, "China can manipulate our youth" angle. Even though we already had foreign companies and states influencing Americans, especially our older people, on other good, homegrown social media companies, like Meta and Twitter. So it won't make a difference on that front, so it's for less good reasons, like protecting American social media monopolies and censorship of news, the exact stuff we criticize China for. Then they're going to pat themselves on the back about solving the problem. That's the part that bothers me, i suppose. The lies and hypocrisy.
Bye vertical videos you won't be missed by anybody with a brain in their head.
If only. Vertical videos suck and short form sucks harder.
Yes, you are absolutely correct. Flush that garbage away forever, I say. It's garbage and turds.
Tiktok style video selfie mode talking about random bullshit is the worst kind of social media invented yet. Nobody should care what your random face looks like watching some other bullshit on social media. There's no need for that level of narcissism in society, we have more than enough everywhere else.
TikTok is the primary source of brain-rot in 2024, please, somebody, change my mind.
I learned how to garden, grow food, ferment food, and some plant identification. I have a working knowledge of sewing. I've watched volcanoes erupt. I saw deep space imagery from JWST and followed along the Voyager 1 communications issues. I get a stream of physicists and physicians sharing about the latest in their field.
It helped me realize many limiting beliefs I've had about myself and I love myself more than I ever have.
I could have done those things elsewhere, too. But just like Pandora / Spotify are a tool to discover things you like that you didn't know before, so is algorithmic video delivery.
Is everything on any social media good? I'm sure there are corners of Tiktok that are as deplorable as anywhere else.
That's great to hear, genuinely the first positive impact I've heard of TikTok having.
I will however state the obvious, you could find most, if not all the same information with a search engine.
Ok. Have you not heard of X, MAGA, or Truth Social?
Thankfully, I'm not forced to interact with any of those, it's not a problem here.
Here in Australia, TikTok is everywhere, and I feel at times as if I'm the only one here that hasn't touched it, that doesn't stop my friends from ignoring the fact I've asked them countless times not to send tiktoks to me.
One of said friends is a nurse, one of the smartest people I know. She told me how to do CPR based on what she'd seen in a TikTok, as someone that's done the CPR training, and actually performed it, I was really upset that her knowledge had been overwritten in a very short time of her TikTok addiction.
I'm finding such cases are becoming more and more common kately and it's terrifying.
Reading through these comments... yikes guys. I use TikTok sometimes, and love the content it provides that YouTube does not provide. Seeing the straight up hate for the app, mixed with the misunderstanding of what the app CAN be if you actually use it, is chilling to say the least. If they were banning ALL social media apps, and their companies, I'd be all for this. As it is, I can not see why you would all be cheering so hard for TikTok to be sold to some American asshole, just for it to start getting enshittified, and then STILL sell your data to Russia, China, and anyone else who wants a slice. The fact you are all hating on TikTok so much, but not questioning our own American social media companies, and wanting them to be banned too, is frightening.
I've seen a few comments saying it is spyware. On iOS at least, there is an icon that pops up to let you know when an app is using your camera or microphone. Not only that, but when you start an app for the first time, it has to request to you the user if you want to allow it access to these things. I said no, of course, because when I first started using it, I fucking hated TikTok. Turns out, when you use it for like a week, it starts to get REALLY good at delivering content you want to see.
Anyway, it doesn't matter, as I'm sure plenty of you will disagree, complain, and then go on using your American owned social medias, that are still hoovering up and selling your data.
The only differences being that China wasn't making a cent out of me, nor do any of these equally shitty American social medias. Oh well, I guess we just really love our own little national narratives.
Imagine how dumb an average person is, then realize how many people are dumber. Just because you know how to use it and can navigate through the algorithm doesn't mean everyone else can.
It's a dumbfucking platform full of both fake news and straight up dangerous shot that can get anyone's house burnt down, killed, or severely wounded.
I can't believe this is the one thing this congress has actually managed to do. We just want healthcare
I want both.
Healthcare!?! Who needs healthcare when Congress is giving us our god given freedom of domestic surveillance capitalism, which is the freedomist freedom that ever freedomed, you filthy communist!
So anyway, I started violating civil liberties... PEW PEW
You'll take your overpriced medicine from your out of network pharmacy and you'll like it. At the fake markup price. And good luck getting that ultrasound, they're going to code the billing wrong so instead of it being $40 it's $1000. That's freedom talking.
🎶 Ain't that America! Home of the free baby! 🎶
Bald eagle screeches
You pick up what Uncle Sam is throwing down!
I wonder how many of these lawmakers will be invested in the company that swoops in and saves the American public?
For real. You know Pelosi is already investing.
If she’s investing at the same time you’re getting the information, she missed the best time to buy. She might have hedged her bets and bought early
Fun fact: Congresspeople can legally inside trade, but the rest of us cannot.
Politicians should be banned from stock market. Total conflict of interest.
Eight Democrat Senators agree with you, and cosponsored a bill in September that died at introduction.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/2773/all-actions-without-amendments
if we keep electing people trying to maintain the status quo, then it'll never happen
It’s a catch-22. To get elected, you need to learn to manipulate within the system. Once elected, you know how to leverage the system, so why would you change it?
The best chance we’ll have for systemic change will come when boomers die off. That shouldn’t discourage efforts today, but impart some hope for the future.
I want to believe that the most change will happens when boomers are gone, but I don’t trust that the new era of politicians won’t get caught up in the game.
What does that mean?
It wasn’t put to a vote after being read aloud on two separate introductions. It was then forwarded to the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee where it went to die.
They don’t review it and then hand it back to congress?
If they see value in the bill they can mandate a vote. That was over six months ago, so I wouldn’t hold my breath.
they're probably all sucking the teat one way or another, even at the lowest levels.
Good Work just recently put out a video on this very topic. Informative and hilarious as usual!
https://youtu.be/vT-u-SPj4_c
Thanks! I never heard of this show.
I'd be fine if they were allowed to invest in things like mutual funds so that they could take advantage of the market without being able to do insider trading of a specific stock.
that would be better, but they could still invest in specific sectors or industries.
Yep, and maybe that's somewhat acceptable, but we could also confine it to diversified mutual funds meeting specific criteria.
Edit: confine, not congratulations
Congratulations!
But yeah you gotta limit it
That’s not true. It’s still illegal even though they get away with it. You’re thinking of
briberylobbying.According to the STOCK Act of 2012, they could be brought up on charges for a trade performed after gaining knowledge of a pending change in legislation that would affect the value of a stock, prior to the legislation being publicly enacted. The SEC just hasn’t charged them.
What they do is not legal, they just live above the law.
Just to clarify. Insider trading is illegal but it is not illegal for politicians in Congress to use the information they obtain from their jobs (such as through classified meetings) to engage in stock market trades.
It’s not a failure of the law. It’s a failure of the SEC for not enforcing it.
https://perry.house.gov/how-can-scott-help/myths-about-congress.htm#:~:text=FACT%3A%20Both%20a%20Congressional%20Research
That’s simply not true. They have no exemption to insider trading laws. It simply comes down to trade timing.
The way the law is written, they could be brought up on charges for a trade performed after gaining knowledge of a pending change in legislation that would affect the value of a stock prior to the legislation being publicly enacted. The SEC just hasn’t charged them.
What they do is not legal, they just live above the law.
If everyone doing it gets away with it, then is it actually illegal?
Yes. It is. They just need to be arrested and prosecuted. I agree that it should be taken more seriously, considering that it’s against the law.
No one has ever been prosecuted in the decade and change that it has been illegal, despite frequent violations.
That doesn’t change the law. It’s simply evidence that Congress lives above it. Seven Democrat Senators cosponsored a bill in September to ban the practice entirely. It died at introduction.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/2773/all-actions-without-amendments
Martha. Stewart.
Fun fact: Everyone with hundreds of millions+ in holdings either trades with insider information or pays others to do it, because our metrics and enforcement for insider trading are a gallows joke.
Pathetic watching ancient, feeble rich people about to return to the dust from whence they came still frantically positioning to boost their ego scores.
It's as if they believe their preferred invisible sky mommy/daddy will accept a bribe of earthly currency.
I would rather chill in my basement.
it's an addiction
Don't worry everyone, it's just pelosi's 3rd cousin doing the investing so that makes everything totally cool and totally legal.
Mnuchin (fmr Trump Treasury Sec) is already setting up a group to try and buy it apparently.
Healthcare? Nah, let's fight about it for decades and never give people anything meaningful. Education? Nah, let's make our people go neck deep into debt and still fight about it for decades. Ban TikTok? Hold my bribery, you got it. Gimme 24 hours and you got it, boss.
We can't solve real issues because then we couldn't keep the American populace overworked, sick, and unable to fight back.
You don't want healthcare. Because we said so.
Its all to get around passing a real privacy law with teeth.
lmao, they don't want a real privacy law, they want to have a monopoly in spying on Americans.
Not only that, they want to have a monopoly on on what kind of media content gets delivered to americans.
CCPA (in California) is a good first step. Ideally something similar should be enacted for the entire country.
Just as a reminder, we have been 'fighting for 15' since 2012. But when it comes to leveraging foreign companies with bans to force them to sell to US oligarchs we can move at blazing speed through the least functional congrss in recent history. There are two very different Americas depending on how much money you have.
Least functional Congress in
recenthistoryToo bad we can't ban Meta, Twitter, and Snapchat while we're at it.
won’t happen
Where do you think the FBI gets their domestic terrorist intel from 😂
TikTok will cut a deal to send your dick picks to Greenbelt.
Truth social
This is not a ban and it was never meant to be. They just force tiktok to sell the US market to a US company. Said US company will continue the platform just like it is at the moment, just with a bit more of that sweet American propaganda mixed into it. Tiktok won't be gone, all that data will just go to the NSA instead of the CCP, that's all they wanted.
China says they're not selling TikTok, which makes it a ban, which is excellent news, actually.
Seriously! Ban everything that is bad for people! That has never backfired ever
I mean, remember when we banned all those really bad and dangerous horror comics and nearly collapsed a whole industry of artists, publishers, and distributors for an entire generation so we could feel morally superior about our own hypercritical actions and interests?
We're really making things great again now!
^^/s
Even though i dont think banning tiktok is a good idea purely because of the concept, those boards are funny. "Tiktok changed my life for the better"
They're also all printed, and with the same font. I'm assuming it's a stock photo, but if that's from a real protest I don't trust those protestors.who the hell gets a protest sign printed?
Its because the company literally paid shills to stump for them in person, call Congress, etc.
They paid for lobbyists!?! Holy shit hold the presses!
No *one outside of some influencers were paid lmao. People contacted Congress but they weren't paid, and a quick Google search brought up zero result of people being paid *outside of the influencers. So I'd love to see where you're sourcing this from.
Edit: Correction - about 30 influencers were paid to visit events for Tik Tok. I'll rescind saying that literally no one was paid: that's point is wrong. My main point was that average users weren't paid to call into Congress. And the vast majority that called in or have talked out against the ban did so of their own volition rather than being paid as implied by OP's comment
let me duckduckgo that for you
Literally the first result on ddg: https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-rally-washington-chew-testimony/
Other reports from different sources:
Lots of protests actually. It's not hard.
A lot of people started their businesses on Tiktok. The Tiktok algorithm is actually way better than that of Instagram to reach your target niche. A lot content creators and marketing exes do realize this.
I don’t understand the mentality of users, of course of obviously older generation here, that realize Tiktok did in fact change a lot of people’s lives. It’s not just an app for dancing.
Let’s not forget the Tiktok Shop section.
Imagine licking the boots of any corporate like this LOL.
I believe they are talking about a specific community that has formed over TikTok, a very anticapitalist and cosmopolitan one, and not about the platform itself.
If your algorithm is favoring that content, your short videos will be full of people talking about all things wrong in our global state of affairs; alternatives and temporal solutions (that happen to harm corporations, ironically because the information is becoming popular thanks to one, so I guess it's the ladder to get to the rooftop); global situations that are not talked or barely talked on regular news (like Congo, Palestine, etc.); the truth behind Western propaganda and lies, especially the ones against populations and ideologies (e.g., "this country doesn't prosper because they're [whatever]" vs "we exploited and condemn this country to scarcity for decades and lied about it"); etcetera. In my time there, I've learnt a couple things.
I know that these content creators will find another platform if TikTok goes down. Lemmy has shown me that social media can be free of corporations, but that's something many people are not aware of yet, especially since the techy people that could explain it on TikTok are not there.
So... yeah, TikTok has some interesting sides content-wise. There's even the rumor that this is one of the reasons they want it banned in the U.S.
Do Facebook and Twitter next.
I mean, it isn't a ban. It requires they be owned by Americans. Those others are already compliant, unfortunately.
Twitter is owned by Musk, he's from South Africa, so we can force him to sell no?
I don't think it's where you came from but whether you're a citizen and most importantly if the government can apply regulations and or investigate(and maybe somewhat control) your company. I think Elon qualifies there, though he seems to break rules all the time so I really wish they would.
Right, again, this feels more like control by the us gov, and less about protecting its people
Yes please
Youtube, amazon & ebay then or am I just greedy?
Most of these would be far better off being broken up.
Yes, eBay and TikTok are the same.
can we ban or move YouTube shorts elsewhere while we are at it?
"The Chinese oligarchs are taking over!" - US oligarchs probably
US oligarchs most definitely
This comment section is astounding.
If you think it’s good that congress passed a ban of a social media platform tied to a bill funding two foreign wars you’re either a fed or delusional.
Seriously. The real solution is comprehensive privacy protection and consumer information export controls for all companies operating within the US.
This whole thing is just going to give an American company the capability to use Tik Tok to spy on people and control information, which is barely better.
And then they'll likely sell the data to China anyway. Data brokers exist and make a fuck ton of money on us.
I'm just pointing and laughing at the dopamine addicts. We've lost so many better internet things by now and the same people who thought I was weird for caring are now crying over tiktok.
All three of these pieces of legislation are what a Real True American would support. If you refuse to endorse these bills, we're going to have to note it on your social credit score.
Real true Americans do love blowing up brown people that's true
That's been the American legacy for a very long time.
Supporting Israel's genocide is nothing I would have voted for given the choice.
From what I understand of Ukraine's situation, I'm happy to support them.
If social media apps exist to slurp up as much user info as possible, and they do, then it makes sense to be concerned about the government that they're subject to.
Why is it okay for domestic companies to collect the same data and sell it to China, then?
This shouldn't just affect foreign companies if it's about data collection. It should have been an actual privacy bill. US citizens' privacy will be no better after this.
It's not ok.
But the fact is that China, North Korea, Iran, and Russia are adversaries of the United States, and the US government is justified in its concern.
They didn't seem to care much when Cambridge Analytica happened, and that was a foreign adversary. So what's different here?
The United Kingdom is not an adversary of the United States. In fact it's one of our closest allies. But, if anything, that suggests this law isn't enough, not that it's too much.
I meant that the data they collected was breached by a foreign adversary, thought that was pretty clear but guess not.
And the fact that a foreign adversary obtained this information was very bad, agreed? Clearly, it makes sense to take steps to keep that kind of information out of adversarial hands.
Yes, my point was this only affects one of them. It doesn't fix the root of the problem, because that's not the bill's target.
In fact, if TikTok remains, and does get banned, it just makes it so they no longer have to listen to the US government for anything.
I probably shouldnt be celebrating this but I am. I fucking despise Tiktok with a passion, I hate its users, its creators, I hate the short form content trend it started and its algorithm based content delivery systems that every other app copied but worse, I hate the sexualisation of minors and peddling that content to pedos, I hate the clout chasing in general, I hate tiktok trends and "challenged". and I hate the general brainrot it has caused.
What are you celebrating, exactly? TikTok isn't going away, it's just going to be sold to American investors.
At the very least they will have to split tiktok since I doubt the CCP will let them sell the whole thing, nor will they want to.
Best case scenario they pull out of the US entirely and then maybe some other western countries also ban it.
If they comply.
Some bills don't have teeth. It sounds like this one does. What do you think would happen if ByteDance doesn't comply?
It would be ineffectually banned in the US and Bytedance would continue to rake in money worldwide from not-the-US?
The US population represents ~4% of the world.
Yes, the U.S. population represents 4% of the world, but what about in the economic world?
You're saying people in the US would keep using it if it were banned in the US but still available in the rest of the world? How? It wouldn't be available on app stores, and the website would be blocked by American DNS servers. Most TikTok users aren't tech savvy enough to get around bans.
Just removing it from the Apple App Store world crush its popularity in the US, since iPhones have much more market share here than globally.
Some users might figure out how to view the site with a web browser, but that’s where the other types of blocks come into play.
Lol, I don't agree with what the parent poster said, but your interpretation is way off!
No, he's saying that if ByteDance loses the American market, it won't matter much (it does, in my opinion.)
Which part? How do you see things differently?
I guess you focused on the "ineffectually" part indicating that US users would "ignore the ban." Fair enough. But I think the comment is more about ByteDance not caring about losing the U.S. market.
I don't think TikTok's success outside of the US is relevant to the thread. It isn't being banned because lawmakers want ByteDance to make less money.
Not relevant to the thread, sure. But the parent poster's point was something along the lines of "like ByteDance will give a damn - they still have the rest of the world market, so they will happily accept the ban."
But you're right. Not exactly relevant to the thread.
Google > tiktok APK > install
Most of TikTok's user base is either on iOS or not tech savvy enough to figure that out.
You're underestimating gen-Zers.
Gen Z don't use apple products?
Gen Z know more about tech than you may think.
I think you're missing the point.
I mean... eh? TikTok is hardly the first platform to embrace short-form video. I think the dislike for the app is overblown.
The style is reflective of the medium. No point in making big budget audio/visual multi-hour immersive experiences for a cell phone screen with some headphones. The media has to be short because its for an audience that's stealing time in the middle of a commute or during a break at school or the office. The continuous-feed style is something we just managed to achieve with high speed mobile internet (TikTok would have been impossible on a dial-up device).
Its a young medium. People are still learning what works and what doesn't. And its as prone to getting enshittified as every other venue, thanks to the endless need for higher profits.
But as someone who grew up watching Albino Blacksheep and YTMND meme-tier content and owns a DVD of Super Bowl Commercials, I gotta say that we've had a lot worse.
People say this shit about every medium. And there's definitely awful pieces of individual content.
But a lot of it just comes down to the hyper-sensationalist marketing. And its common to every conceivable media, from Comic Book style front page of print to the "Bwooooong!" they put in every new movie trailer.
If TikToks suck, its largely because they're aping the worst aspects of all the other established media forms.
Except most people you speak to will tell you they spend hours in bed scrolling. Short form took off because it drives higher engagement.
Except its never not been shitty. I wa son it back when it was musical.ly it has much of the same problems.
Which are far more creative than doing whatever the current trend is, or a thirst trap or click bait.
But with tiktok you can feel it. I hate short form but still end up scrolling mindlessly through YT shorts or IG reels. And it really does measurably affect your attention span. And it's so noticeable that the user base openly acknowledges the brain rot.
This seems like an exaggeration on a number of fronts. But even if you can find folks doing this, what's the counterfactual? Would these same people be out hitting the gym or gardening or curing cancer? Or would they just be watching TV or reading a book, instead?
There are folks binging seasons worth of Netflix who would argue otherwise.
They're absolutely not. Go back through the dredges of the '00s-era content mill and you'll find plenty of low-effort crap. Hell, YTMND was the pinacle of low effort crap. It was shit you could crank out in ten minutes with MS Paint and a collection of mp3 snippets.
You'd have heard from folks reading tabloid news or watching reality TV decades ago.
I mean ive personally just zoned out scrolling short form and missed my chance to go to the gym before. obviously might not be the case for everyone but is certainly plausible.
That doesnt disprove what I said at all.
Creativity != effort and even then most tiktok stuff is as low effort as it gets.
I've seen people scrolling in between reps at the gym. But, again, would this not have been a problem if you'd been blogging instead of TikToking? Or Netflix binging?
Multi-hour tv series are not short form.
A picture of a celebrity attached to a quote from a movie played on a loop is neither.
The point is short form content enables that behaviour more than other things. Its taken off specifically because its addicting and makes you think "its only a short/reel/tiktok just one more.... okay one more...etc" that you dont get with hour long netflix episodes.
No one is arguing otherwise and long form content just existing doesnt disprove that short form drives higher engagement. Its like saying "Taylor swift songs are the most popular" and replying "but ACDC exists?" That doesnt disprove the original statement.
ok
I simply haven't seen anything to support this claim.
You haven't established anything to disprove. You've just asserted it with some personal anecdote about missing a gym appointment.
It's like saying Taylor Swift isn't inside the top 10 of the Billboard Top 100 so why do you keep insisting that her overwhelming popularity is corrupting America's fragile young egos?
always has been, with vine.
always has been, with twitter, facebook, instagram, snapchat, youtube, uhhhhh... vine, yeah, just mentioned that one. discord, tinder. literally everything.
Look at what the great adpocalypse of youtube was ostensibly about, then look at what it was really about. In any case, always has been.
Always has been.
Assuming you mean "challenge", you could check out the harlem shake, the ice bucket challenge, god, there's a lot of them honestly. Gangnam style. I think probably this is just like, meme culture more broadly, which, say it with me now: always has been.
And finally, always has been.
Yeah but that's just on YouTube and Facebook now. Nobody is going to regulate them in the slightest.
It is a slap in the face if they want to say it is too influential to have an adversarial state control it, at the same time leaving it fine for local billionaires to do the exact same things.
Also that damned Disco music!
The people that create TikTok content are still going to exist even if TikTok goes away. They'll just move to another platform.
Will there be a TikTok dance on TikTok that covers this event?
The Tiktok dance to end all Tiktok dances. Literally.
They never got over Snowden.
I have mixed feelings. Like I’m glad we’re funding Ukraine, angry we’re finding Israel, and mixed about TikTok. I dislike the app, but that’s no reason to ban something. I think all social media has the issues associated with it except one: a foreign country controls the algorithm. Also this is standard policy for foreign companies in China and turnabout is fair play.
TikTok is nothing but a chinese psyop program to see how they can influence the public.
And boy howdy did it work, Look at all the absolutely monstrous, horrible shit people did in pursuit of tiktok trends and fame.
They may just pull out of the US completely
They'd be right to do so.
The way this got passed was criminally sleazy. And there's no reason for a foreign company to hand over its IP to some Wall Street thugs.
And nothing of value was lost. While I've railed against the unwarranted mass data collection by the NSA and other 3-letter agencies via US carriers and app creators, Tik-Tok is controlled by a foreign adversary that is actively engaging in cyber attacks and has been shown to have far-reaching data collection capacities.
People can be mad about the US policies and celebrate the banning of Tik-Tok at the same time.
Best thing to do if you disobey the first rule: don't stick your Tik in crazy.
Trudat
It seems like a lot of people think moves like this are about actual national security like congress claims,
It blows my fuckin mind now damn stupid the average American is
I mean to an extent it is. America is mad China has a platform that's popular with Americans that they can't control. The effects of this were shown with the fact that America couldn't control the narrative over the Israel-Palestine issue after October 7th. So to increase national security and try to gain back the control they had they're getting rid of TikTok.
Narrative control != National Security in a Democracy.
I agree that the government attempting to have this kind of control in a democracy is wrong but it still does provide national security. Security is good but can be taken too far and in all honestly we've been very far past what's too far for a while with stuff like the Patriot act.
So the next nine months will be TikTok pushing pro Trump propaganda 24/7, mobilising the youth against Biden, only to be forced to sell by Trump anyway because everyone who hops into bed with populists gets fucked regardless.
Isn’t Trump like, famously anti-China. If TikTok was Russian I could see it.
Trump is more pro-money than anti-China
Biden has done significantly more damage to China's economy than Trump, by far. See https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2024/01/trump-reelection-china-xi-jinping/676129/ for example.
Besides, China supports every single party causing harm to democracies.
For instance, there's a reason the German fascist "We should reopen concentration camps for Antifa" party has more popularity on TikTok than all other German parties combined. TikTok's promotion of fascism is even worse than Musk's Twitter.
Weak, totalitarian strategy. If we’re worried about China taking over, becoming China is not the right way to fight that.
And pretending that forcing American ownership cuts out China’s influence is foolish.
I'm convinced that US lawmakers believe that the pro-gaza sentiment is coming from TikTok. The timing, the mechanism. They see themselves as no longer able to control the narrative and are blaming 'non-US' social media.
I'd like to point out that the US has been publicly going after TikTok since the Trump Administration so I'm unconvinced that the timing lines up.
I think it's more so just about controlling narratives in general. Tiktok has a lot of real time tracking of politician corruption and trades. A lot of good useful info for political activism, etc.
So did Twitter and even in the Pre-Elon days the Federal Government didn't go after it like this.
And yet it finally got the momentum to succeed now, during all these Gaza protests and when the US-Israeli mainline narratives have been starting to break down for the first time.
Here comes POS billionaire like Moron Musk to buy TikTok and turn it into Nazi propaganda machine
Nah, it'll get sold to a company registered in the US or Europe that is funded by various shell companies and private investment groups, most of which will be owned by Chinese Billionaires.
Is that picture AI-generated? The article claims it's from GettyImages and shot on Capitol Hill, but... The signs are too perfect. They all follow the name design, the text in crispy clear, the colours uniform, and the sign itself 1 atom thin.
Uh yeah, TikTok 100% coordinated those signs. It doesn't invalidate the protest, many of them use coordinated signs.
Almost like they were part of a coordinated campaign
It’s simply photoshopped.
I think we're where China was in 2005--2010: a platform that can (and does) promote values that are against the interests of our nation(s) is popular with our youth. The real dilemma is "can we do better", and these days it seems not.
History suggests that the real solution to TikTok isn't banning it; China trying to block western sites did nothing save foment resentment and foster a VPN industry. Take the next step instead - make something that does TikTok better than TikTok, then push it hard. Either that or do what is being done to YouTube/Google - run it into the ground!
No. What TikTok does is bad, and should not be continued. It's an addictive form of distraction used for brainwashing the youth. It's the worst offender of many types of social media and web content that is ruining the attention span of its users and encouraging them to prostitute their visage for the currency of Likes and Subscribes.
People should practice reading more than ogling all those vapid videos.
Isn't this unconstiutional?
Well sort of but not really. They can justify that the Chinese ownership makes this a national security issue. Which makes this 100% legal. Now the American shareholders of tiktok however just like last time they tried to do this with tiktok have a claim that their rights are being infringed. Last time they tried to do a tiktok ban the shareholders sued and won.
So it should be easier this time cuz there's precedent right?
I'm sure that if you squint in just the right way while driving past it at 80mph while eating a doughnut, it's perfectly constitutional.
I do think the general mood about TikTock, the Chinese, politicians, and society will make it legal.
Yeah thatll go over well with younger more democrat voters
Time for some wild conjecture!
Bytedance and the CPC both know how unlikely it is that TikTok will be allowed to continue operating in the US. Despite what they're saying, I don't think they actually believe they have any chance at winning that lawsuit.
They tried to stop the law from passing but now that it's been signed they're shifting strategies. They're going to go all in on using TikTok to paint the US as authoritarian and hypocritical. Their primary targets will be young people outside the US.
Looking around the world I expect this will have a lot of traction in developing countries. If you look at wonky foreign policy publication you'll see that the diplomacy nerds have spent the last decade or so worrying about developing nations realigning with China. That will probably accelerate.
They'll probably also have some success with younger Americans. Older American's will probably be unconvinced.
It obviously won't have any affect on China's ability to buy data on US citizens from any number of data brokers. I wouldn't be totally surprised if China has at least some access to data from Five Eyes.
Chinas ability to influence opinion probably won't change much either. We used to call that sort of tactic "information warfare" or "psychological warfare". Sending messages to an opponent, adversary or rival in order to confuse or demoralize them has been going on for millennia. Nations constantly work to develop new methods to do so. Tiktok isn't the first or last of such tools and any large nation has a host of other such options at their disposal.
Great analysis IMO, the US is only one of the countries they're using TikTok to influence.
I'd go even further than that. There's a whole network of tools and organizations that many countries around the world use to influence and spy on each other.
China has a whole portfolio of tools they can use for that stuff.
The US has a whole portfolio of tools they can use for that stuff.
Many of those companies are very comfortable working with both countries, or anyone else who's willing to sign a big enough check.
The control the US government experts over Meta isn't nearly as much as the CCP's control of TikTok.
Maybe. China probably has more official channels to interact with Bytedance but we have hard evidence that the US does the same thing.
FOIA provided a lot of insight into various clandestine interactions between US government agencies and private companies. There are a bunch of NGOs that get almost all of their funding from the US.
We also just reauthorized warrantless wiretapping.
The bigger issue is that Meta doesn't really care. Nobody needs to force them to conform when they can just pay them. As far as Zuckerberg is concerned USD spends just as well as RMB.
More official channels from the authoritarian CCP, seriously?
FOIA requests in the US are a wonderful thing compared to what you're able to do under the CCP's iron grip. I wonder what people could discover of they were transparent enough to allow similar information requests.
What are the odds this stands up in court? It seems like an easy legal victory for TikTok.
Normally yeah but this was a called hit by the wealthy donor class. The same ones giving million dollar vacations to the Supreme Court judges.
On what basis? The legal power of the US government to break up or otherwise force divestment of corporate assets is the basis upon which antitrust law is built. The only way this law could be overturned is it's found unconstitutional, and if that happens, you can say goodbye to the FTC.
On the grounds that they are not breaking it up because it has monopoly but because they don't like it can be used for Chinese propaganda. Which is limiting speech.
Also, they require it to be sold to non-chinese buyer, which is discriminatory.
Lmao. Then bring an anti-trust case? That power is specifically in reference to that and requires the government to prove it's case in court. Not just make a declaration.
You're missing my point.
In the case of antitrust law, the government has to prove its case in court because that's the way the Sherman Act and related laws are written, not because the constitution necessarily requires it. And it's the constitutional interpretation that matters as this is a law passed by Congress. A constitutional challenge is the only way to reverse it.
That said, TikTok is owned by a Chinese organization. So if I'm wrong and the constitution does protect corporations from forced divestment in a situation like this, it wouldn't apply to TikTok. This is much closer to protectionist trade policy and I'm not aware of any cases where such acts were found to be unconstitutional. To the contrary, as a recent example, Huawei was banned from American markets on national security grounds (see: CFIUS) and while challenged in court, those challenges were defeated. And then there's OFAC and the entire American sanctions regime (e.g. Russian asset seizures).
To be clear: I am not saying I support this ban one way or the other. I'm saying the belief that this will easily be struck down in court is misguided and that it's not an obvious slam dunk.
Huawei was banned from critical infrastructure. You can still buy their products for personal use.
And the Anti-Trust laws were written that way because that's the Due Process the Constitution demands. The executive cannot just declare something punitive. That has been the standard for over 200 years.
Also, if there aren't rights for foreigners in the US then there aren't rights for citizens. Because the loss of your rights is always just one declaration away. Which is why rights for everyone inside our borders has been the standard for 70 years.
In what way does that invalidate it as an example?
CFIUS and OFAC would beg to differ.
Bytedance isn't inside your borders and the constitution doesn't protect extra-nationals. There's a reason Guantanamo Bay still exists.
The question is indeed constitutionality. But I disagree with you about any major effect on the FTC. Details matter, and this looks to be a situation where the details don't look good for the government. A court could easily find that this was handled improperly, and leave the rest of the framework as it is.
Why would a court be able to "easily find this was handled improperly"?
A lot of people on Lemmy are just… old.
This thread made me realize this.
If this bill passes and any of you criticizes China/Russia for banning Facebook/Instagram/Twitter etc.. under the name of “lack of freedom of speech”. I will be laughing. A lot.
They should have taken the harder route. Something like requiring all software that uses algorithms to manipulate their users to share their algorithms with an auditing body, or to provide a manipulation-free environment otherwise. Every time a change is made, that change must go through the auditing body. Of course Meta, Apple, Microsoft, Google would have a hissy fit, so such a thing would never fly. Or just ban algorithms that manipulate users.
An outright ban of a particular piece of software sets a terrible precedent in an increasing Orwellian future. They didn't even ban Kaspersky when Russia attacked Ukraine, they just all said, "you probably shouldn't trust this, but keep using it if you want" and that's software that has full access to a computer at a very low level.
I have news for you, China has already banned everything and if any western app exists in China, it must have its servers in China and it only works in "cooperation" in a local chinese company(which has complete or partial ownership of the chinese part of the app). Have you ever heard the Great Firewall of China?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Firewall
In fact, both facebook/instagram and twitter have been banned from China.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_Facebook
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_Twitter
That's basically what the US asked of Tik Tok. They wanted their servers in the US (so they did) and then they wanted them in cooperation with a US company (which they did, Oracle I think it was). And it still wasn't enough. And now everyone is clapping as the US becomes more and more like China.
They already have. Please spend some time learning about China.
The difference is that in countries that are not dictatorships you have alternatives that don't seek to suck dry every bits of user data for profit and control.
There are services, like tor, proton, tuta, signal, session, blair, matrix, mastodon, wikipedia, and private and secure OS like graphene, calyx etc., seek to keep user data out of their control and respect user choice.
I have yet to see alternatives like these in a dictatorship. If so, I would have much less problem about China's GFW. It is annoying that I have to keep wechat in its own profile, because I have no way to communicate with people in China, or communicate with others outside when I visit China.
That being said, I am not a fan of countries banning services for no good reason, but I don't know if I want to make an exception for instagram and tiktok etc, because they are very much designed to be manipulative.
But I definitely don't think any countries should ban services that are private, essential, and don't impose manipulative algorithms, like signal, session, mastodon, tor, legitimate VPNs, GrapheneOS, etc. including wikileaks.
this exactly. china bans those platforms for the same reasons the us is banning this one. they are the same.
i don't know why everyone in this thread doesn't understand what you're saying. i think its clear
So dropout, now that you’ve been informed that China has been doing this shit for, well ever really, are you going to be critical of China?
Banning?
Tiktok helped my life for the better 😀.... LOL. Sure but it is also a Chinese company that can do things to turn your life and the life of everyone around you into living hell if the government do wishes to.
I think what I would want my relationship with the Chinese country to be like is just simple transactions... I give you this money and I buy that thing. Done, end of transaction. I would like that for all phone tech companies actually. None of this shit about updates because they sold me a shit phone. None of the here's 8 features, then an update leaves you with 3 features only.
Twitter/x is owned by an unhinged South African billionaire and Middle East oil Barrons. We can discuss the theoretical abuse of TikTok, but X is damaging our democracy today.
Fuck them both!
Straight into the garbage.
Meanwhile everyone has already forget when Cambridge Analytics used Meta and Facebook to influence voters into giving us Trump with the help of Russian propaganda. The hypocrisy is so blatant They just want only US oligarchs making money and they want to be able to censor things young people are seeing nowadays from around the world. Every other excuse is a screen.
This is possible. But at home we don't watch TV and I just blocked YouTube altogether from my kids. That website is rancid. I wouldn't let my kids on TikTok either if I was me. And I am me.
However you are absolutely right. How else will you move people who don't know any better to actually vote for you? And what sector of the population doesn't know all the shit you have done in the past 30 years than people who haven't lived 30 years and haven't paid attention in history class, not care much about it? Teenagers! That population lives on TikTok. So you are absolutely right. Because if TikTok was a porn site nobody would give a fuck except Texas.
That's the thing. I definitely think short form content, and spawning even before that, the news bite culture, has been bad for attention spans, and I wouldn't mind some sort of regulation on that with respect to kids probably. If I ever get a kid, they'll be mad at me for being one of the last of their friends to get a smart phone lol.
But the fact that it's only Tik Tok and not the just as algorithm-laden YouTube shorts, Instagram reels, and Snapchat stories kind of proves it's not for the good reasons people keep bringing up, of mental health or privacy. So they have to concoct the red scare, "China can manipulate our youth" angle. Even though we already had foreign companies and states influencing Americans, especially our older people, on other good, homegrown social media companies, like Meta and Twitter. So it won't make a difference on that front, so it's for less good reasons, like protecting American social media monopolies and censorship of news, the exact stuff we criticize China for. Then they're going to pat themselves on the back about solving the problem. That's the part that bothers me, i suppose. The lies and hypocrisy.
Bye vertical videos you won't be missed by anybody with a brain in their head.
If only. Vertical videos suck and short form sucks harder.
Yes, you are absolutely correct. Flush that garbage away forever, I say. It's garbage and turds.
Tiktok style video selfie mode talking about random bullshit is the worst kind of social media invented yet. Nobody should care what your random face looks like watching some other bullshit on social media. There's no need for that level of narcissism in society, we have more than enough everywhere else.
TikTok is the primary source of brain-rot in 2024, please, somebody, change my mind.
I learned how to garden, grow food, ferment food, and some plant identification. I have a working knowledge of sewing. I've watched volcanoes erupt. I saw deep space imagery from JWST and followed along the Voyager 1 communications issues. I get a stream of physicists and physicians sharing about the latest in their field.
It helped me realize many limiting beliefs I've had about myself and I love myself more than I ever have.
I could have done those things elsewhere, too. But just like Pandora / Spotify are a tool to discover things you like that you didn't know before, so is algorithmic video delivery.
Is everything on any social media good? I'm sure there are corners of Tiktok that are as deplorable as anywhere else.
That's great to hear, genuinely the first positive impact I've heard of TikTok having.
I will however state the obvious, you could find most, if not all the same information with a search engine.
Ok. Have you not heard of X, MAGA, or Truth Social?
Thankfully, I'm not forced to interact with any of those, it's not a problem here. Here in Australia, TikTok is everywhere, and I feel at times as if I'm the only one here that hasn't touched it, that doesn't stop my friends from ignoring the fact I've asked them countless times not to send tiktoks to me.
One of said friends is a nurse, one of the smartest people I know. She told me how to do CPR based on what she'd seen in a TikTok, as someone that's done the CPR training, and actually performed it, I was really upset that her knowledge had been overwritten in a very short time of her TikTok addiction. I'm finding such cases are becoming more and more common kately and it's terrifying.
Reading through these comments... yikes guys. I use TikTok sometimes, and love the content it provides that YouTube does not provide. Seeing the straight up hate for the app, mixed with the misunderstanding of what the app CAN be if you actually use it, is chilling to say the least. If they were banning ALL social media apps, and their companies, I'd be all for this. As it is, I can not see why you would all be cheering so hard for TikTok to be sold to some American asshole, just for it to start getting enshittified, and then STILL sell your data to Russia, China, and anyone else who wants a slice. The fact you are all hating on TikTok so much, but not questioning our own American social media companies, and wanting them to be banned too, is frightening.
I've seen a few comments saying it is spyware. On iOS at least, there is an icon that pops up to let you know when an app is using your camera or microphone. Not only that, but when you start an app for the first time, it has to request to you the user if you want to allow it access to these things. I said no, of course, because when I first started using it, I fucking hated TikTok. Turns out, when you use it for like a week, it starts to get REALLY good at delivering content you want to see.
Anyway, it doesn't matter, as I'm sure plenty of you will disagree, complain, and then go on using your American owned social medias, that are still hoovering up and selling your data.
The only differences being that China wasn't making a cent out of me, nor do any of these equally shitty American social medias. Oh well, I guess we just really love our own little national narratives.
Imagine how dumb an average person is, then realize how many people are dumber. Just because you know how to use it and can navigate through the algorithm doesn't mean everyone else can.
It's a dumbfucking platform full of both fake news and straight up dangerous shot that can get anyone's house burnt down, killed, or severely wounded.
That being said, do Shitter and Facebook next.
It's always been shit.