I was a teenager during 9/11, and watching nearly every adult in my life go absolutely stark raving mad from both fear and blood lust was a real wake up call for me, I can tell you that much. If you aren’t old enough to remember it there’s nothing recent I can really compare it to. 9/11 and the Iraq War are what really got Fox News off the ground, so just imagine living in Fox News land, because it was absolutely tapping into some primal response a lot of people had.
I had more or less the same experience. "Terrorists" were the villains in spy movies and they were NEVER in the USA. I thought we were invincible? Get a little older: oh look at the social services and infrastructure that other countries have for free.
... and how the us likes to bomb the shit of said infrastructure when it makes them money somehow.
I was in my early 20s and it definitely was a moment when I realized things weren’t what they seemed. I also fell for the narrative for a bit. Then a couple years later when it was revealed that the WMDs in Iraq were made up it started to all make sense. This country operates the highest, most advanced form of propaganda and corruption. It’s how it stays in power.
I also believe this is what Israel is going through now. Leveraging primal blood lust to justify what being committed. No wonder the US is supportive.
It's depressing watching history repeat itself within your own lifetime, even despite the far greater visibility of Israel's war crimes thanks to the internet.
I was a sophomore in high school, from a military (though pretty progressive) family. Both my grandfathers were sailors and my father went to West Point. I was in NJROTC and had every intention of going to Annapolis. I wanted to be an astronaut, so navy pilot seemed the path, and I would be making my family proud. I happened to be the one to put up the flag at school that morning. All of this is to say that I was very proud to be an American, and was looking forward to serving my country. The terror and confusion of that day hit me as hard as anyone else, but in the following weeks I was appalled to see how my fellow countrymen reacted. The way we reacted, with fear and hatred and overwhelming violence, both within and without, fundamentally changed how I saw my nation. I eventually dropped out of ROTC and started studying history and politics. I found punk music and took theater classes. I identified as social Democrat until the BLM riots of 2020, when I was radicalized. I now consider myself an anarchist.
It happened when I was kid growing up in another country, as a US citizen, and then coming to the US to see for myself why I had heard so much trash talk about Americans.
We are arrogant, spoiled, dumb and racist. The world expects us to be better. We are privileged like a spoiled rich brat and are waisting our fortune. We have what other countries do not and yet still ignore our own poor. We openly shit on our own minorities and immigrants that want to come here and build with us.
Even dirt poor countries have free healthcare and education. Our education system has been ignored and allowed to fall farther and farther behind the entire world.I came here in when I was in the 6th grade and immediately was shocked that kids my age could barely read. This is richest country on the entire planet, ever! Multiple choice? You mean they give you the answer and just mix it in with wrong answers!?
Our celebrated values that we put forward in our popular media (how the world learns about us by the way) do not include humility or compassion, it's all direct or veiled celebrations of military might. Every hero is fighting. Guns guns guns, fight fight fight. Our military power allows us to do nearly whatever we want and we do.
Every disparaging comment I heard or that was aimed at me for being American I learned to be true. They are tired of our bullshit. The world doesn't hate us, they are deeply disappointed in us. Several generations of disappointment.
Thank you for sharing this, it puts my feelings there well. I don't hate America. I'm disappointed in it too. We used to do great things, but we've had generations who have squandered that, and here we are.
Yes, but I would also say that an entire generation isn't responsible for everything. It's usually a few very powerful people in that generation that get an the influence.
Rich people need political cover and boomers gave it to them at expense of every body else.
Perspective from a mid-twenties American. I realized it was horseshit during the 2016 Trump election.
I was turning 18 just in time to vote in this election, and it was right around then that I started forming my own ideas about politics and what political "side" I stood on. Like a majority people with a semi-functioning brain, I thought Trump was an actual joke, a meme that had no chance at actually winning, like how we were acting when Kanye ran. Unironically, I thought that having trainwrecks of a leader was something that "other countries" did, obviously America wouldn't let someone like this win because even though we make little mistakes here and there like Iraq and slavery we're still the good guys and we wouldn't actually let a moron like Trump become our president.
When it became obvious that he was more than a joke and an actual serious candidate with high potential to win, I realized that the only people consistently talking about how amazing America was at everything were the people voting for him, and I started dissecting the things I'd taken for granted.
You think slavery was a "little" mistake?
As an aside, my autocorrect wanted slavery to be Disney and I was a little tempted to let it stand.
Nah I don't think they think slavery was little. They were just being "cheeky." You can tell because of the big jump from Iraq to slavery. If they used immigration instead of Iraq I'd have a different opinion on their intention.
America is #1 in production of aircraft carriers.
America is #1 in the number of incarcerated citizens per capita.
America is #1 in the number of adults who think angels are real.
America is #1 in defense spending.
Also number one in american football
Or course they’re #1 in American football wins.
What’s remarkable is they’re #1 in World Series wins…
If you’re not good in a sport, just create your own sport, name it the same thing, and show everyone you’re best at it.
I’m going to create my own basketball and I’ll show everyone I’m #1!
"defense"
For me it was when I was around 8 or 9 and met someone from Kenya. They could speak perfect English, wore normal clothes, and talked about having electricity. I'd literally never been told that those things existed in Africa - every reference to that continent only talked about tribes and jungles, save for Egypt which only talked about ruins and deserts. I asked around and found that most of the rest of the world has the same stuff we have, and most countries have a functioning government. I was so confused - why were we the country of freedom when everyone else has the same thing?
At the time I just assumed that there was something I was missing, or maybe the rest of the world just caught up to our idea, but eventually I came to the conclusion that they tell us we're the country of freedom - and keep our studies of other countries to a minimum when we're young - so that we can internalize the rhetoric that our country is the best before we find out that most other countries about the same, and often better in certain ways.
Just think which countries make their kids pledge alliance to the flag in schools.
I realized that later, yeah. That's not something that a kid would usually realize is bad on their own, though; if it's something you and everyone you know has always done, most people wouldn't think to question it.
I grew up poor and black. The illusion was never there.
Surpised only two down votes.
OP prompt inherently has sub urban middle class bias... Poor or other disadvantaged people have no reason to larp that kool-aid
The fact that US doesn't provide maternity leave to women is savage
It's not just the prompt, it's Lemmy as a whole.
Not American, but my views of America being "the good guy" completely crumbled when I read Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent.
It made me put into perspective the amount of propaganda we're being fed by mass media, just by reporting with carefully chosen words. It's obviously not limited to America, because the same patterns are being used all around the world to justify imperialism, nationalism and ruthless capitalism.
It also helped me realise how fucked up some of the things my government did (and is still doing to be fair) and we just gobble it up, because it's insanely hard to get out of the bubbles we've created for ourselves.
thank you for the book reference, learned something new today!
It's a tough read (as in long and highly detailed), but I feel it's worth it to help understand how the media treats and reports information.
For anyone looking to get some of those views right away (as opposed to reading an entire book), here's a short (<10min) video of Chomsky talking about propaganda terms in the media and what they mean.
A definite must read book. Which country do you live in?
I live in France, and roughly 90% of the media is between the hands of a dozen people at most. You can really feel the impact in the general population.
A whole dozen of people?! That's pretty good by American and Canadian standards.
I woke up after Powell's speech to the UN, accusing Iraq of having WMD. He didn't present any real evidence, but every TV show and almost every newspaper said it was an "Open and Shut" case over and over. One guy even wrote "only a fool or a Frenchman would doubt now",
When I graduated from college. I was fed the, "work hard, go to college, live well" spiel. I worked hard, I went to college, graduated with honors.
All I have to show for it is debt.
I work a job that's... Fine, but I also cry most days because of the misery of it. I haven't gone to a doctor in years because I can't afford it. I can barely save (I have, like, $100 in "savings"). I will likely never be a home owner, and I will most likely have to work until I die, which breaks my spirit the more I think about it.
On less personal note, when I got to sit at the "grown up" table in regards to politics, I quickly realized that (most) people in government either don't give a shit or actively work against the peoples interest. I hear of other countries with their free Healthcare and education, workers rights, pensions, and I weep with envy. America is like a third world country in a first world mask.
the healthcare shit in the US still baffles me. there's literally no material reason for it to be that way other than disdain for people. even countries you'd consider "shitholes" have better healthcare (and things that contribute to healthcare like sick days and paid leaves) for the general population.
i always knew it was bad there but i was still baffled when i saw one video where someone breaks their leg (or something i don't remember well) but they were begging people around them not to call an ambulance... i thought wtf why not. then i learned that not only do they charge like some fucking Uber drive but they charge insane amounts.
'richest" country in the world and in history. unbelievable.
The distain for people isn't the reason, it's the side effect. The goal is profit, profit above all else. The problem the US (and most everyone) has is it's very hard to put the cat back in the bag.
After WW2 many countries were decemated and people banded together to help each other. This became the basis for social healthcare. They didn't have huge corporate interests to fight against as so much was already dismantled.
The US however came out on top with healthy industry so there was no "start from scratch" point. Because of this any attempt at socializing healthcare comes at the cost of destroying the profits of all the companies that have been built on the back of the current system. Capitalism is built on investment and investors do NOT like losing profits. Therefore maintaining the status quo so that investments remain stable is priority #1.
The sad truth is that things have to get bad, really bad, before people consider a complete reboot. Up until recently it's only been really bad for the poor, now the shrinking middle class is starting to feel it. Eventually it will become to much to bear, but until then there's still more sweet profit in the next quarter.
Keep your head up. I know it's Reddit but maybe you can escape. Be one of the lucky ones.
America is like a third world country in a first world mask.
That's exactly how I've considered it since like 30 years ago.
Until a few years ago, I've lived in Mexico for 2 decades and I've always felt more afraid for my safety while in the US visiting, than in Mexico, even though there we had (and still have) a drug war. There are less guns in the street there and as long as you stay out of drugs I'd claim you're safer there than in the US.
I've been in many poor places in Mexico but never have I seen so much homelessness and neglect as I've seen in the US.
Also access to medical healthcare is better there. Almost all doctors there studied in the US, they got loads of free or cheap medications and consults. It's always "funny" to see the same people wanting a border wall going to Mexico for cheap healthcare.
Don't get me wrong,Mexico is far from perfect (like every country) but given the choice: Mexico or USA, I'll choose Mexico every time.
With the rampant corruption there as well, I consider the US more a third world country than I do Mexico. Viva Mexico!
My answer to this is so complex I'm not sure I can put it into words. Grew up at the very height of cold war US #1 propaganda in a military community. I'm a veteran. So many moments where those sentiments rang a little hollow, even if they were enticing, but I really wasn't aware enough to put it all together at any one moment.
I'm in my 50s now, and over time enough of those myths of US exceptionalism were weakened as I learned more about US imperialism, and became more aware of how easy it is to find yourself choosing between food and medicine (or even getting neither) in the US, and could see how so much of our culture revolves around hiding our nation's flaws from ourselves like avoiding seeing your own fat naked ass (or similar insecurity you have) in the mirror. Edit: I can't not drop a line here about realizing that our mistreatment of African Americans didn't end with the civil rights act. I grew up privileged and sheltered enough that I believed it had for a very long time. And our police problems are only the most high profile example of how this continues. I don't think it's the most pervasive nor the most systemically damaging example though.
I think we have the potential to live up to every single bit of propaganda. I think we've done a poor job executing on it. Individual people I meet every single day amaze me with how wonderful and generous they are. But huge groups of our people are pretty awful, and a much bigger group is still avoiding looking at their fat ass in the mirror when they come out of the shower. I'm not sure whether things will head up or down from here.
When they had us stand up in grade school and pledge allegiance to the flag. Nope, no thanks. If we're that amazing we wouldn't compel children to worship nationalist symbols, we'd give them reasons to be proud of their country rather than trying to compel worship.
On the other hand we're #1 at a lot of things, like medical bankruptcies, mass shootings and incarceration per capita. So, go us and our amazing country?
Same for me, stopped doing it in high school ~2011. Felt weird and culty to me, so I sat for it. My critical examination only continued from there, and I grew up in a very conservative/nationalistic household.
So everyone should try not to worry about conservatives having all of the kids, lmao. Conservatives birth future leftists too ✌️
Its kinda hard to ignore the healthcare problem. That always stank of corruption.
Reading A People's History of the United States put that on my radar. I hadn't given the idea any thought until a college course assigned this book. I was educated in a standard American public school during the Reagan and Clinton eras, complete with Pledge of Allegiance. The standard schoolbooks omit a lot of atrocities and smooth over the ugly reality.
Whatever legitimate criticisms you lay on it, Zinn's takedown opened my worldview and intensified my pre-existing anti-authoritarian streak.
9/11 happened shortly after and by then I considered Bush an illegitimate president. I watched him wage an unjustified war, and with the whole of our bloody rampage across the globe that clicked neatly into place. "America #1" is a sick joke.
Learning actual US history, for starters.
When I was having my "what'd you learn at school today?" check-in dinner conversation with mom, and I learned the European settlers did not, in fact, peacefully move in and fairly share the land with Native Americans. :|
Wait till you learn that most of them weren't "settlers", more like "the fuckin weirdo religious nutjobs that got turfed out of Europe" lol
My theory why the US is partly so religious and in general like they are.
based mom
I'm not American, but I grew up there. I knew the US was a little off when I realized it was over-the-top religious which spilled over into politics. I had this idea that whatever country was the most progressive and secular would naturally gravitate towards good policies. I think my gut feeling was right. The best countries are indeed irreligious and don't have entire communities that lose their minds over pop music that when played backward sounds like Satan speaking. That's about when I discovered the liberal vs conservative dipole and how the Republicans try to dismantle everything good going for the country. Combo that with the low wages, the racism, the glass ceilings, over-policing, lack of public funding, lack of open public spaces*, and the injustice that I saw. I quickly realized the American dream was a mirage enjoyed by a select few and I left.
Don't get me wrong, I love the US as my second home and wish it the best. But to call it #1 is crazy talk.
Maybe it was the cities I was living in but I could not go out and spend $0 and sit at a plaza without being accused of loitering. I find that ridiculous for a first-world country.
whatever country was the most progressive and secular would naturally gravitate towards good policies
I wanna know at what point America was the greatest country in the world when he said we use to be. Excluding one set of ppl America pretty much sucked for everyone else that lived here since its creation
One could argue America was a straight white man utopium in the 20s. After the first World War America was the saviour of the western world. The economy was booming and the capitalist society we know today felt love opportunity and wealth.
But again, this was definitely not the case for everyone.
I think 'the greatest country' really rather depends on the metrics by which you judge these countries. It would stand to reason that the people in the video would see America as the greatest country by metric of wealth, power and freedom (for some). Skating over gender oppression, race oppression, poverty... For some people it would be better to be in America than anywhere else in the world.
And the 20s were not the only decade this was the case. The 50s had many of the same appeal for wealthy, straight white men. And the 80s. Since then it's been downhill.
On the other hand... I wouldn't wanna answer the question what is the greatest country in the world right now. As a European, I like to look at Scandinavian countries as a model for a great country. But I wouldn't really leave the Netherlands for Denmark.
It's a pretty subjective question really. If you mean greatest country for rich white guys then the US probably qualifies as the best for a reasonable chunk of its history.
For everyone else, not so much.
6th grade I really started paying attention to the pledge of allegiance in really what something like that meant. I question why I was pledging my allegiance to a flag every morning. It wasn't my choice I was told to do this. And that didn't feel right to me until I stopped.
In high school. Noticed the various branches of the military would never leave and were always trying to recruit. I noticed in the kids around me behavioral differences, as they were hyped up to join the military. But my great-grandfather who is in the military and was on Normandy Beach... He wasn't hype about the military. My uncle who is in the Navy barely speaks of it. And my other uncle who was in the Vietnam war... Seemed rather traumatized by the whole experience. And George W Bush and everything surrounding 9/11, the definite WMDs that totally existed.
Also in high school I got to meet foreign exchange students. Made friends with a bunch of them and got to learn about how things are in various parts of the world that really didn't add up to the things that I was being told.
Then in college and post college, thanks though like early YouTube and even early Reddit, I got to learn a lot more about the world than anything grade school had ever taught me.
Your path is similar to mine. It also almost identical to my religious path too. Essentially I was born into something, told I was supposed to respect and obey it (without a reason for why), and realized there are so many competing groups saying they're also the best/correct, but that can only be true for one of them. This means most people have to be wrong, if not everyone.
I was also in boy scouts and am an eagle scout. One of the requirements for that is the belief in a god of some kind (usually the Christian one, but not strictly required), and it has tons of nationalism involved. I still finished with the rank of eagle, but it's fair to say I was faking a lot of stuff by the end of it. (Tangent: I really like the idea of scouting, but it really needs to get rid of this stuff. There are alternatives, but none are as good.)
When the police told me to kill myself
For me it was around when I joined the furry fandom.
Grew up in a small, secluded town in the deep south, one with a 99.3% white majority at the time and wasn't far from a sundown area. I was very much sheltered from outside culture and world views both by my mother and just from the circumstances of where I lived. Throw in some undiagnosed autism and a deeply trusting nature, and I was effectively set to stay in the mental cesspool of my peers.
As a troubled teen facing emotional and religious trauma from an abusive father figure, I turned to escapism wherever I could, and once I got my first computer I started getting into PC gaming online, and I eventually found a furry friendly server on a Half-Life 2 mod.
All of the sudden I'm talking to people of all places and creeds. Most were Americans, sure, but there were tons of folks from far more backgrounds and environments than I'd ever seen before. And most were furries. People from a generally more left leaning background who are also comfortably open about sexuality. Found out I liked dudes from them, cause I'd genuinely never even considered that as a possibility until then and mom hadn't instilled her anti gay rhetoric in me yet.
And of course, I started learning new things from them. Things I'd never heard of before, things that would never be taught at the school I went to. I learned of the Tuskeegee syphilis experiments, of MK ULTRA, of Guantanamo Bay and the atrocities there. That roughly 1 in four prisoners in the world are in American prisons. That the pledge of allegiance is really fucking weird. I learned of the massive income inequality we're troubled with, of the police brutality our people of color experience, that our healthcare system is utterly broken by design, that our lawmakers are paid for and bought out, and of course I learned that this list is FAR from exhaustive - feel free to add to this list!
Plus just generally interacting with people from other countries and cultures, seeing these different perspectives and world views and experiences, it all helped me slowly, gradually realize that there's so much beautiful culture and so many beautiful people in this mote of dust we all share. Cultures and people that so many of my peers were apathetic towards most often, mildly entertained by in media and media alone at best, and actively hostile towards at worst. Just the idea of my neighbor yelling obscenities towards a Latino man for working the exploitative jobs that Americans would never touch themselves broke my young heart.
Once Trump's campaign really started taking steam, I was a very different person from who my mom wanted me to be, and though it drove a wedge between us (on top of her just being a shit parent for me), I prefer it this way.
My political awakening happened in the wake of 9/11. (But I was always a bit unconventional politically and socially and even voted Libertarian in the 2000 presidential election.)
I remember sitting during the national anthem at the Mizzou vs Texas football game in 2001 and my friend there urged me to stand up, and someone behind me said they were going to kick my ass.
It was my protest for the fact that the US was looking to exploit the terrorist attacks to go to war in Iraq, which I just assumed was a foregone conclusion. Also, I was protesting the treatment of Muslim students on campus, forty of whom left the school that fall because of the horrid way they were treated and the lack of action on the part of school administration.
A few years later I read A People's History of the United States, and the killed any patriotism I had left.
A few years later I read A People’s History of the United States, and the killed any patriotism I had left.
That book will do it. Oof.
I remember being viscerally angry when I finished it, just now knowing so much that had been deliberately withheld from me by the public school system.
When it's less expensive to fly to another country to seek medical treatment than it is to use my insurance in America.
Not only fly to another country, but fly first class and stay in a nice hotel for a week.
Well I flew cheapo and stayed at a hostel 5 days. Not just cheaper mind you, tens of thousands cheaper.
I suppose it was after I read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair. That, plus my own personal struggles and being homeless despite working my ass off (and all of the issues that spawned from that), made it pretty apparent that life here wasn't as easy and great as I was raised to believe. I still love everything this country claims to be, and I appreciate how people can be upwardly mobile, and how refuges can come here and create a better life for themselves, but I definitely recognize the areas where we need to be a lot better.
When Bush 2 assumed office. Or, if not then, when all the bullshit about Iraq got going. I was for sure ashamed of my fellow citizens with the gd Freedom Fries and rah rah bullshit.
Younger millennial here: I don't remember a particular moment, but it was somewhere during the 2nd Bush administration. Between the horrible things that happened in Guantanamo Bay, the completely unjustified war on Iraq, and the harm I saw No Child Left Behind inflicting on my own community, the country's flaws were very apparent to me.
When an obvious charlatan got elected in 2016, that devastated my hope that things would improve.
It's not a lie, they just didn't say the competition is for the strongest empire instead of the best place to live.
Not an American, but I realised it when I had to talk one of my online friends out of suicide because he almost worked himself to death (ten or more hour shifts six days a week for over a month) and couldn't afford rent.
9/11. My first thought when watching TV that day was 'Bush did this'. Now maybe he did or maybe he didn't, but it's clear as day the US was just itching pass the Patriot Act and go to war. Every year since then has shown me this country's government couldn't give a shit about poor and downtrodden people in other countries. In fact, the US is doing the trodding, and the poor of this country are also in its sights.
At least we still have social programs here, which is good thing, but it feels like something left over from when more people cared.
I really, really wish the US would get the f out of the Middle East, stop arming Israel and begin making reparations. Unfortunately, those of us wanting peace tend to be meek (up to a point), which isn't a bad thing. Meek people can be strong enough to build a more stabile society, but a lot of unfortunate things are going to have to take place first.
An unironic "Bush did 9/11", incredible
Lol, I know. I was just saying what I thought then. Nowadays I believe the US knew of a plot, but failed to act for the reasons I gave before. Never let a good crisis go to waste, and all that.
When I was living in Japan and felt more "free" than in the US. "Land of the free" is such a load of shit.
School shootings and healthcare
The reality started to crumble in 4th grade. I had a history book that covered the "main" wars for the US. Chapters on WWI and WWII had sizable "causes for conflict" and those sections for Vietnam and Korea were much much smaller.
9/11 was just a few years after that moment for me. Seeing people around me laughing at the thought of "revenge" by bombing other people endlessly was a major crack. Farenheit 911 was the absolute "we're not the good guys" moment for me. My idea of patriotism shifted. I stopped believing that America was great, and started believing that America can be great, but it's gonna take a lot of work, work that half of my fellow Americans are unwilling to do.
As a kid in the 80's, I always picked the U.S.S.R. in video games because of their banger national anthem.
Have you read the lyrics?
when the newsroom premiered 😂
That opening speech? *chef's kiss*
Sadly it was largely downhill from there. Still watched it all tho because I’m sorkin-pilled
Nobody says it better.
When I was in basic training and during some down time one of the instructors put on a compilation of people deemed terrorists being killed in various ways. The majority of my fellow trainees were cheering and it weirded me the fuck out.
Two minutes hate
Yeah, fairly similar. Without the chanting tho
When I moved abroad for a half year.
Almost any stats.
Learning about how the settlers tricked the natives into “buying” land
When I moved out of my parents house and stopped watching fox news.
I figured out pretty quickly that there were really big differences between Fox,NBC and CNN, at that point I saw CNN as being approximately truthful.
A couple years later one of the guys that worked with had CNN lies bumper stickers. I thought BS, but realized I really should see what it was about.
I looked into that. And found that he wasn't wrong but it was way more complicated than that.
I realized that even the news channels with the most journalistic integrity still have numbers to make. If I'm not riled up they consider me under-consuming. And there were still agendas here and there.
In the Netherlands we had (and as far as I know, still have) state sponsored news and they are by law obliged to be truthful and neutral. I always found it to be a very trustworthy source, and I think this is something that other countries should do too. It had no numbers to make, they got paid no matter what, so they simply made the news, they were journalists. 10/10 would recommend
We had fairness in reporting laws until Reagan came through and nixed it.
That type of thing makes it better, but the bias still comes through in reporting choices. The right wing side always reports every piece of doom and gloom in the cities so they can make the case that the entire left-wing side is backing lawlessness.
Hell even if you take journalism out of it, every other neighborhood on social media will report that there are bands of roving kids running around thieving and fighting. Come to find out it's a bunch of high schoolers getting together in summer at a carnival. I mean, we even have gang activity here and there but they hardly report on it.
Put those laws back, then. Right now the most accurate news source I can find is the daily show, which is a Comedy show. Jon is hilarious for sure, but how the hell is it that a comedy show does better?
Require news shows to be factual or they can't call themselves news.
That narcissistic fake patriotism never resonated with me. Don't get me wrong, I love my country and the people in it but I wouldn't tolerate a person that was "me first" because it's obnoxious. I think the reason people latch onto it is to feel better about themselves. It's like racism. People like to imagine others beneath them. It takes no effort at all on their part
People like to imagine others beneath them. It takes no effort at all on their part
This is also how reality TV works and why everyone involved is so amazingly awful.
Realizing that being trans isn't a disorder or a"problem" and that being myself is important regardless of the stigma.
It's been downhill for Amerikkka sense then. More I learn about this country the more i absolutely hate it.
Iraq. Or maybe it was just meeting other folks from other places and realizing I’m more of a person than an American because while they may do things a bit differently over everywhere else they’re still just people over there. I grew to love my country in a “well it’s my home and I think we can make it better” way.
Though it may have been around my teenage years when the climate started collapsing and some dumbass motherfucker in congress brought a snowball to work to argue that climate change isn’t real. And not too long after the alt right started organizing and by the gods I learned some damn shame in my country over that bullshit.
probably after 9/11, but i already had questions as a kid connected to the cold war.
Yeah shortly after 9/11 is what did it for me. Learning who attacked us, why they would do that, stuff they didn't teach us in school. Then, when I learned the US was invading Iraq for made up reasons, I realized what the US really is.
To answer your question: in college, gradually.
We can't just say we're "the best country in the world", we have to live it. We have to, each of us, take responsibility to make it so.
Instead, I see far too many people taking what others in the country might have done (We went to the moon first!) to stand as credit for their own personal pride. Not saying you can't be grateful for what's been accomplished, but there's many who just ride on it and don't really contribute anything meaningful of their own.
When I started playing PubG. All those people shouting 'China #1' can't possibly be wrong.
Growing up in western Washington does it to you automatically. No one I know has ever felt that way.
When I gave the books Manufacturing Consent and Consequences of Capitalism a fair chance, and learned about the brutal reality of our foreign policy that goes completely ignored in our history books
Also finding the channel Knowing Better on YouTube and learning much more about the history of Slavery and Native Americans
Yeah, I don't watch them too much but I do support that channel.
Also GDF when it comes to imperialist/colonialist conflicts, Leeja Miller on any US issues from a legal lense, and Hasan Piker on political commentary
When I became an adult and realized life isn't "My Team No Matter What" juvenile pissing contests.
“There are two types of patriotism, although sometimes the two are mingled in the same breast."
"The first kind one might call nationalism; nationalists believe that all other countries are inferior in every respect and that one would do them a favor by dominating them. Other countries are always in the wrong, they are less free, less civilized, are less glorious in battle, are perfidious, prone to falling for insane and alien ideologies which no reasonable person could believe, are irreligious and abnormal. Such patriots are the most common variety, and their patriotism is the most contemptible thing on earth."
“The second type of patriot is best described by returning to the example of General Fuerte. General Fuerte did not believe in ‘my country, right or wrong'; on the contrary, he loved his land despite the faults that he could so clearly see and that he labored to correct. It was his frequently stated opinion that anyone who supported his country when it was so obviously in the wrong, or who failed to see its faults, was the worst kind of traitor."
"Whereas the first kind of patriot really glories in his own irrationality and not in his country, General Carlo Maria Fuerte loved his country as a son loves his mother or a brother his sister.”
-Louis de Bernieres, The War of Don Emmanuel’s Nether Parts
I'm not sure it ever wasn't propaganda (they never provided any metrics) to me, but I think I started to care during the Bush II administration as an adolescent/teenager. I still remember thinking how f***ed up it was that Gore had the popular vote while still losing the election. --I guess that made me unsurprised when it happened again. I didn't realize how bizarre our 'Pledge of Allegiance' habits were until I was in my twenties, though.
My friend from Ukraine could not understand why and how someone would pay to be driven to the hospital in an ambulance.
I think since at least middle school. I was already aware of some of the lies and "half truths" that they were teaching us. I don't remember most of what they taught us but I remember telling some of my classmates about it and they acted like I was weird.
I grew up as a military brat and was thoroughly disillusioned about the US military before I was a teenager. On the UK RAF bases, i believe they tone down the jingoistic americanism a bit to not disturb the locals.
Everything else is just learning actual US history, and interacting with veterans; we're pretty fucked up for a country that hasn't even hit 300 years of age yet.
Wait.. what?? Isn't america the best country in the world?
It is by many measures. But there are a lot of problems too.
You know, I'm not sure one measure by which America is the best country in the world, at least with a metric that matters to the average person. So not like GDP, number of billionaires, or number of prisoners.
No, Kazakhstan is. All other countries are run by little girls.
Australia is run by Arisa Trew so we're doing pretty well at the moment.
Around 7th or 8th grade
8th Grade. When I got access to the internet.
Right after they told me that they would blow up the world to prove it.
That was a fairly shitty 8th birthday.
1984, when I moved to Jakarta.
Since time immemorial,
It's not a lie. It's a point of view. It's a declaration of intent. Being #1 isn't a privilege, it's a responsibility, and a choice.
The vast majority of people I see declaring we're #1 are taking credit for it but not working to be the best in the world. It's the people who are saying we shouldn't help other people outside the US (or even inside). It's not a declaration of intent for most people. It's a badge of pride that they don't deserve and don't intend to maintain.
If it actually were used like you imply, I don't doubt we would be the best. It would require us working to improve the world around us, not just benefit ourselves. Usually it's said out of nationalism though, not optimism.
Sorry, bullshit.
It's always "we're the beat, we're the best at X" whereas the reality is that you have rampant poverty, institutionalized racism (hello US police forces!), shit and unaffordable healthcare with (apparently) doctors who put their religion over their Hippocratic oath, unaffordable education which doesn't get you a good job anymore anyways, you don't work to live, you live to work, you have almost no vacation days whatsoever, you have no free days agter when your baby is born,you can't do anything anymore without a car, you have no freedoms, but they convinced you that parading around military style weapons is freedom somehow. You teach little children at school that sex is wrong, but it's good to knoe what to do when the next mass murderer visits your school again. Your police is racist, uneducated, inept, and corrupt..... I could go on, but you get the idea.
Sorry, America sucks, to paraphrase someone else in this thread: it's a third world country wearing the mask of a first world country.
Right. Being #1 means being the best. "We are the best at X" is an equivalent statement to "We're #1".
Not disputing that.
What I'm saying is that both of those statements can be, and are, statements of intent.
You really think a pizza place claiming "The best pizza in NYC!" thinks they're stating an objective fact? No, they're stating their commitment to acting as if that's their role. It's a commitment to excellence and striving.
Yeaaahhh, about that.
First of all that's not how language works. If you say A but then when called out on it say "well actually I meant b to be like a" then you're just lying
Then, that intent kind of becomes questionable too when your pizza parlor is rat infested and your pizzas are covered in mold. The US has great things, like all countries, but all takeb together I consider it a third world nation that ban barely get by.
All countries need patriotism, a little bit of 'we're better than everyone else/ the competition!' Is good for morale boosting and fostering nationalistic pride especially if your country isn't doing too hot socioeconomically. You don't have families of soldiers willing to send themselves and their children to fight wars if they didn't truly believe on some level america is #1. Id like to think its the same with most countries, nationalism is a powerful tool of propaganda.
Some pride in your country is definitely good, but its equally important (if not more) to notice things that could be improved and examples of other places that do things differently.
Yeah, I think you've both missed the point of this post, and are drunk on the kool aid
yes what would commoners do without empty sophistry to get them through the day
Internet made everything one big shitstorm.
When Dementia DonOLD was elected. I went from being proud to being embarrassed.
It is #1.
I say this having traveled around the world to experience everything from extreme poverty to extreme wealth.
By most measures, the US is still the best place to live for a vast majority of everyone.
if 'everyone' means white men from wealthy families. The pollution and iffy food regulations alone make it pretty shit for the actual average person.
They really did a good job of brainwashing you, and many others.
It's far from the best or even one of the best, objectively. It's not even close to the top.
If you’re wealthy it’s the best place to live. If you’re not it sucks. Source, someone who’s travelled a bit, including the States, and has a reasonable amount to compare it to.
It is only good for high income individuals and the owners. Everybody else is eating shit.
I was a teenager during 9/11, and watching nearly every adult in my life go absolutely stark raving mad from both fear and blood lust was a real wake up call for me, I can tell you that much. If you aren’t old enough to remember it there’s nothing recent I can really compare it to. 9/11 and the Iraq War are what really got Fox News off the ground, so just imagine living in Fox News land, because it was absolutely tapping into some primal response a lot of people had.
I had more or less the same experience. "Terrorists" were the villains in spy movies and they were NEVER in the USA. I thought we were invincible? Get a little older: oh look at the social services and infrastructure that other countries have for free.
... and how the us likes to bomb the shit of said infrastructure when it makes them money somehow.
I was in my early 20s and it definitely was a moment when I realized things weren’t what they seemed. I also fell for the narrative for a bit. Then a couple years later when it was revealed that the WMDs in Iraq were made up it started to all make sense. This country operates the highest, most advanced form of propaganda and corruption. It’s how it stays in power.
I also believe this is what Israel is going through now. Leveraging primal blood lust to justify what being committed. No wonder the US is supportive.
With each passing week, there are more and more parallels to the aftermath of 9-11. Israel has now even had its own equivalent to the leaked photos of prisoners (held without trial) being degraded, tortured, and sexually assaulted at Abu Grahib.
It's depressing watching history repeat itself within your own lifetime, even despite the far greater visibility of Israel's war crimes thanks to the internet.
I was a sophomore in high school, from a military (though pretty progressive) family. Both my grandfathers were sailors and my father went to West Point. I was in NJROTC and had every intention of going to Annapolis. I wanted to be an astronaut, so navy pilot seemed the path, and I would be making my family proud. I happened to be the one to put up the flag at school that morning. All of this is to say that I was very proud to be an American, and was looking forward to serving my country. The terror and confusion of that day hit me as hard as anyone else, but in the following weeks I was appalled to see how my fellow countrymen reacted. The way we reacted, with fear and hatred and overwhelming violence, both within and without, fundamentally changed how I saw my nation. I eventually dropped out of ROTC and started studying history and politics. I found punk music and took theater classes. I identified as social Democrat until the BLM riots of 2020, when I was radicalized. I now consider myself an anarchist.
It happened when I was kid growing up in another country, as a US citizen, and then coming to the US to see for myself why I had heard so much trash talk about Americans.
We are arrogant, spoiled, dumb and racist. The world expects us to be better. We are privileged like a spoiled rich brat and are waisting our fortune. We have what other countries do not and yet still ignore our own poor. We openly shit on our own minorities and immigrants that want to come here and build with us.
Even dirt poor countries have free healthcare and education. Our education system has been ignored and allowed to fall farther and farther behind the entire world.I came here in when I was in the 6th grade and immediately was shocked that kids my age could barely read. This is richest country on the entire planet, ever! Multiple choice? You mean they give you the answer and just mix it in with wrong answers!?
Our celebrated values that we put forward in our popular media (how the world learns about us by the way) do not include humility or compassion, it's all direct or veiled celebrations of military might. Every hero is fighting. Guns guns guns, fight fight fight. Our military power allows us to do nearly whatever we want and we do.
Every disparaging comment I heard or that was aimed at me for being American I learned to be true. They are tired of our bullshit. The world doesn't hate us, they are deeply disappointed in us. Several generations of disappointment.
Thank you for sharing this, it puts my feelings there well. I don't hate America. I'm disappointed in it too. We used to do great things, but we've had generations who have squandered that, and here we are.
Yes, but I would also say that an entire generation isn't responsible for everything. It's usually a few very powerful people in that generation that get an the influence.
Rich people need political cover and boomers gave it to them at expense of every body else.
Perspective from a mid-twenties American. I realized it was horseshit during the 2016 Trump election.
I was turning 18 just in time to vote in this election, and it was right around then that I started forming my own ideas about politics and what political "side" I stood on. Like a majority people with a semi-functioning brain, I thought Trump was an actual joke, a meme that had no chance at actually winning, like how we were acting when Kanye ran. Unironically, I thought that having trainwrecks of a leader was something that "other countries" did, obviously America wouldn't let someone like this win because even though we make little mistakes here and there like Iraq and slavery we're still the good guys and we wouldn't actually let a moron like Trump become our president.
When it became obvious that he was more than a joke and an actual serious candidate with high potential to win, I realized that the only people consistently talking about how amazing America was at everything were the people voting for him, and I started dissecting the things I'd taken for granted.
You think slavery was a "little" mistake?
As an aside, my autocorrect wanted slavery to be Disney and I was a little tempted to let it stand.
Nah I don't think they think slavery was little. They were just being "cheeky." You can tell because of the big jump from Iraq to slavery. If they used immigration instead of Iraq I'd have a different opinion on their intention.
America is #1 in production of aircraft carriers. America is #1 in the number of incarcerated citizens per capita. America is #1 in the number of adults who think angels are real. America is #1 in defense spending.
Also number one in american football
Or course they’re #1 in American football wins.
What’s remarkable is they’re #1 in World Series wins…
If you’re not good in a sport, just create your own sport, name it the same thing, and show everyone you’re best at it.
I’m going to create my own basketball and I’ll show everyone I’m #1!
"defense"
For me it was when I was around 8 or 9 and met someone from Kenya. They could speak perfect English, wore normal clothes, and talked about having electricity. I'd literally never been told that those things existed in Africa - every reference to that continent only talked about tribes and jungles, save for Egypt which only talked about ruins and deserts. I asked around and found that most of the rest of the world has the same stuff we have, and most countries have a functioning government. I was so confused - why were we the country of freedom when everyone else has the same thing?
At the time I just assumed that there was something I was missing, or maybe the rest of the world just caught up to our idea, but eventually I came to the conclusion that they tell us we're the country of freedom - and keep our studies of other countries to a minimum when we're young - so that we can internalize the rhetoric that our country is the best before we find out that most other countries about the same, and often better in certain ways.
Just think which countries make their kids pledge alliance to the flag in schools.
I realized that later, yeah. That's not something that a kid would usually realize is bad on their own, though; if it's something you and everyone you know has always done, most people wouldn't think to question it.
I grew up poor and black. The illusion was never there.
Surpised only two down votes.
OP prompt inherently has sub urban middle class bias... Poor or other disadvantaged people have no reason to larp that kool-aid
The fact that US doesn't provide maternity leave to women is savage
It's not just the prompt, it's Lemmy as a whole.
Not American, but my views of America being "the good guy" completely crumbled when I read Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent.
It made me put into perspective the amount of propaganda we're being fed by mass media, just by reporting with carefully chosen words. It's obviously not limited to America, because the same patterns are being used all around the world to justify imperialism, nationalism and ruthless capitalism.
It also helped me realise how fucked up some of the things my government did (and is still doing to be fair) and we just gobble it up, because it's insanely hard to get out of the bubbles we've created for ourselves.
thank you for the book reference, learned something new today!
It's a tough read (as in long and highly detailed), but I feel it's worth it to help understand how the media treats and reports information.
For anyone looking to get some of those views right away (as opposed to reading an entire book), here's a short (<10min) video of Chomsky talking about propaganda terms in the media and what they mean.
A definite must read book. Which country do you live in?
I live in France, and roughly 90% of the media is between the hands of a dozen people at most. You can really feel the impact in the general population.
A whole dozen of people?! That's pretty good by American and Canadian standards.
I wish your anthem still had the full lyrics.
Oh yes...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Marseillaise
I woke up after Powell's speech to the UN, accusing Iraq of having WMD. He didn't present any real evidence, but every TV show and almost every newspaper said it was an "Open and Shut" case over and over. One guy even wrote "only a fool or a Frenchman would doubt now",
When I graduated from college. I was fed the, "work hard, go to college, live well" spiel. I worked hard, I went to college, graduated with honors.
All I have to show for it is debt.
I work a job that's... Fine, but I also cry most days because of the misery of it. I haven't gone to a doctor in years because I can't afford it. I can barely save (I have, like, $100 in "savings"). I will likely never be a home owner, and I will most likely have to work until I die, which breaks my spirit the more I think about it.
On less personal note, when I got to sit at the "grown up" table in regards to politics, I quickly realized that (most) people in government either don't give a shit or actively work against the peoples interest. I hear of other countries with their free Healthcare and education, workers rights, pensions, and I weep with envy. America is like a third world country in a first world mask.
the healthcare shit in the US still baffles me. there's literally no material reason for it to be that way other than disdain for people. even countries you'd consider "shitholes" have better healthcare (and things that contribute to healthcare like sick days and paid leaves) for the general population.
i always knew it was bad there but i was still baffled when i saw one video where someone breaks their leg (or something i don't remember well) but they were begging people around them not to call an ambulance... i thought wtf why not. then i learned that not only do they charge like some fucking Uber drive but they charge insane amounts.
'richest" country in the world and in history. unbelievable.
The distain for people isn't the reason, it's the side effect. The goal is profit, profit above all else. The problem the US (and most everyone) has is it's very hard to put the cat back in the bag.
After WW2 many countries were decemated and people banded together to help each other. This became the basis for social healthcare. They didn't have huge corporate interests to fight against as so much was already dismantled.
The US however came out on top with healthy industry so there was no "start from scratch" point. Because of this any attempt at socializing healthcare comes at the cost of destroying the profits of all the companies that have been built on the back of the current system. Capitalism is built on investment and investors do NOT like losing profits. Therefore maintaining the status quo so that investments remain stable is priority #1.
The sad truth is that things have to get bad, really bad, before people consider a complete reboot. Up until recently it's only been really bad for the poor, now the shrinking middle class is starting to feel it. Eventually it will become to much to bear, but until then there's still more sweet profit in the next quarter.
Keep your head up. I know it's Reddit but maybe you can escape. Be one of the lucky ones.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AmerExit/
https://www.reddit.com/r/IWantOut/
Thank you. Saving the comment.
That's exactly how I've considered it since like 30 years ago.
Until a few years ago, I've lived in Mexico for 2 decades and I've always felt more afraid for my safety while in the US visiting, than in Mexico, even though there we had (and still have) a drug war. There are less guns in the street there and as long as you stay out of drugs I'd claim you're safer there than in the US.
I've been in many poor places in Mexico but never have I seen so much homelessness and neglect as I've seen in the US.
Also access to medical healthcare is better there. Almost all doctors there studied in the US, they got loads of free or cheap medications and consults. It's always "funny" to see the same people wanting a border wall going to Mexico for cheap healthcare.
Don't get me wrong,Mexico is far from perfect (like every country) but given the choice: Mexico or USA, I'll choose Mexico every time.
With the rampant corruption there as well, I consider the US more a third world country than I do Mexico. Viva Mexico!
My answer to this is so complex I'm not sure I can put it into words. Grew up at the very height of cold war US #1 propaganda in a military community. I'm a veteran. So many moments where those sentiments rang a little hollow, even if they were enticing, but I really wasn't aware enough to put it all together at any one moment.
I'm in my 50s now, and over time enough of those myths of US exceptionalism were weakened as I learned more about US imperialism, and became more aware of how easy it is to find yourself choosing between food and medicine (or even getting neither) in the US, and could see how so much of our culture revolves around hiding our nation's flaws from ourselves like avoiding seeing your own fat naked ass (or similar insecurity you have) in the mirror. Edit: I can't not drop a line here about realizing that our mistreatment of African Americans didn't end with the civil rights act. I grew up privileged and sheltered enough that I believed it had for a very long time. And our police problems are only the most high profile example of how this continues. I don't think it's the most pervasive nor the most systemically damaging example though.
I think we have the potential to live up to every single bit of propaganda. I think we've done a poor job executing on it. Individual people I meet every single day amaze me with how wonderful and generous they are. But huge groups of our people are pretty awful, and a much bigger group is still avoiding looking at their fat ass in the mirror when they come out of the shower. I'm not sure whether things will head up or down from here.
I'll close with this, which covers most of my bases I think: https://youtu.be/OO18F4aKGzQ
Thank you for sharing. Great music video!
You got it!
When they had us stand up in grade school and pledge allegiance to the flag. Nope, no thanks. If we're that amazing we wouldn't compel children to worship nationalist symbols, we'd give them reasons to be proud of their country rather than trying to compel worship.
On the other hand we're #1 at a lot of things, like medical bankruptcies, mass shootings and incarceration per capita. So, go us and our amazing country?
Same for me, stopped doing it in high school ~2011. Felt weird and culty to me, so I sat for it. My critical examination only continued from there, and I grew up in a very conservative/nationalistic household.
So everyone should try not to worry about conservatives having all of the kids, lmao. Conservatives birth future leftists too ✌️
Its kinda hard to ignore the healthcare problem. That always stank of corruption.
Reading A People's History of the United States put that on my radar. I hadn't given the idea any thought until a college course assigned this book. I was educated in a standard American public school during the Reagan and Clinton eras, complete with Pledge of Allegiance. The standard schoolbooks omit a lot of atrocities and smooth over the ugly reality.
Whatever legitimate criticisms you lay on it, Zinn's takedown opened my worldview and intensified my pre-existing anti-authoritarian streak.
9/11 happened shortly after and by then I considered Bush an illegitimate president. I watched him wage an unjustified war, and with the whole of our bloody rampage across the globe that clicked neatly into place. "America #1" is a sick joke.
Learning actual US history, for starters.
When I was having my "what'd you learn at school today?" check-in dinner conversation with mom, and I learned the European settlers did not, in fact, peacefully move in and fairly share the land with Native Americans. :|
Wait till you learn that most of them weren't "settlers", more like "the fuckin weirdo religious nutjobs that got turfed out of Europe" lol
My theory why the US is partly so religious and in general like they are.
based mom
I'm not American, but I grew up there. I knew the US was a little off when I realized it was over-the-top religious which spilled over into politics. I had this idea that whatever country was the most progressive and secular would naturally gravitate towards good policies. I think my gut feeling was right. The best countries are indeed irreligious and don't have entire communities that lose their minds over pop music that when played backward sounds like Satan speaking. That's about when I discovered the liberal vs conservative dipole and how the Republicans try to dismantle everything good going for the country. Combo that with the low wages, the racism, the glass ceilings, over-policing, lack of public funding, lack of open public spaces*, and the injustice that I saw. I quickly realized the American dream was a mirage enjoyed by a select few and I left.
Don't get me wrong, I love the US as my second home and wish it the best. But to call it #1 is crazy talk.
Sweden enters the chat
https://www.worldvaluessurvey.org/images/Map2023NEW.png
LOL the separation of NI and the rest of the the UK. Pretty accurate 😂.
Is Ireland missing from that map or am I not seeing it?
I'm not an American but seeing that bit from The Newsroom was kind of a hammer on the nail. America is not the greatest country in the world
I wanna know at what point America was the greatest country in the world when he said we use to be. Excluding one set of ppl America pretty much sucked for everyone else that lived here since its creation
One could argue America was a straight white man utopium in the 20s. After the first World War America was the saviour of the western world. The economy was booming and the capitalist society we know today felt love opportunity and wealth.
But again, this was definitely not the case for everyone.
I think 'the greatest country' really rather depends on the metrics by which you judge these countries. It would stand to reason that the people in the video would see America as the greatest country by metric of wealth, power and freedom (for some). Skating over gender oppression, race oppression, poverty... For some people it would be better to be in America than anywhere else in the world.
And the 20s were not the only decade this was the case. The 50s had many of the same appeal for wealthy, straight white men. And the 80s. Since then it's been downhill.
On the other hand... I wouldn't wanna answer the question what is the greatest country in the world right now. As a European, I like to look at Scandinavian countries as a model for a great country. But I wouldn't really leave the Netherlands for Denmark.
It's a pretty subjective question really. If you mean greatest country for rich white guys then the US probably qualifies as the best for a reasonable chunk of its history.
For everyone else, not so much.
6th grade I really started paying attention to the pledge of allegiance in really what something like that meant. I question why I was pledging my allegiance to a flag every morning. It wasn't my choice I was told to do this. And that didn't feel right to me until I stopped.
In high school. Noticed the various branches of the military would never leave and were always trying to recruit. I noticed in the kids around me behavioral differences, as they were hyped up to join the military. But my great-grandfather who is in the military and was on Normandy Beach... He wasn't hype about the military. My uncle who is in the Navy barely speaks of it. And my other uncle who was in the Vietnam war... Seemed rather traumatized by the whole experience. And George W Bush and everything surrounding 9/11, the definite WMDs that totally existed.
Also in high school I got to meet foreign exchange students. Made friends with a bunch of them and got to learn about how things are in various parts of the world that really didn't add up to the things that I was being told.
Then in college and post college, thanks though like early YouTube and even early Reddit, I got to learn a lot more about the world than anything grade school had ever taught me.
Your path is similar to mine. It also almost identical to my religious path too. Essentially I was born into something, told I was supposed to respect and obey it (without a reason for why), and realized there are so many competing groups saying they're also the best/correct, but that can only be true for one of them. This means most people have to be wrong, if not everyone.
I was also in boy scouts and am an eagle scout. One of the requirements for that is the belief in a god of some kind (usually the Christian one, but not strictly required), and it has tons of nationalism involved. I still finished with the rank of eagle, but it's fair to say I was faking a lot of stuff by the end of it. (Tangent: I really like the idea of scouting, but it really needs to get rid of this stuff. There are alternatives, but none are as good.)
When the police told me to kill myself
For me it was around when I joined the furry fandom.
Grew up in a small, secluded town in the deep south, one with a 99.3% white majority at the time and wasn't far from a sundown area. I was very much sheltered from outside culture and world views both by my mother and just from the circumstances of where I lived. Throw in some undiagnosed autism and a deeply trusting nature, and I was effectively set to stay in the mental cesspool of my peers.
As a troubled teen facing emotional and religious trauma from an abusive father figure, I turned to escapism wherever I could, and once I got my first computer I started getting into PC gaming online, and I eventually found a furry friendly server on a Half-Life 2 mod.
All of the sudden I'm talking to people of all places and creeds. Most were Americans, sure, but there were tons of folks from far more backgrounds and environments than I'd ever seen before. And most were furries. People from a generally more left leaning background who are also comfortably open about sexuality. Found out I liked dudes from them, cause I'd genuinely never even considered that as a possibility until then and mom hadn't instilled her anti gay rhetoric in me yet.
And of course, I started learning new things from them. Things I'd never heard of before, things that would never be taught at the school I went to. I learned of the Tuskeegee syphilis experiments, of MK ULTRA, of Guantanamo Bay and the atrocities there. That roughly 1 in four prisoners in the world are in American prisons. That the pledge of allegiance is really fucking weird. I learned of the massive income inequality we're troubled with, of the police brutality our people of color experience, that our healthcare system is utterly broken by design, that our lawmakers are paid for and bought out, and of course I learned that this list is FAR from exhaustive - feel free to add to this list!
Plus just generally interacting with people from other countries and cultures, seeing these different perspectives and world views and experiences, it all helped me slowly, gradually realize that there's so much beautiful culture and so many beautiful people in this mote of dust we all share. Cultures and people that so many of my peers were apathetic towards most often, mildly entertained by in media and media alone at best, and actively hostile towards at worst. Just the idea of my neighbor yelling obscenities towards a Latino man for working the exploitative jobs that Americans would never touch themselves broke my young heart.
Once Trump's campaign really started taking steam, I was a very different person from who my mom wanted me to be, and though it drove a wedge between us (on top of her just being a shit parent for me), I prefer it this way.
My political awakening happened in the wake of 9/11. (But I was always a bit unconventional politically and socially and even voted Libertarian in the 2000 presidential election.)
I remember sitting during the national anthem at the Mizzou vs Texas football game in 2001 and my friend there urged me to stand up, and someone behind me said they were going to kick my ass.
It was my protest for the fact that the US was looking to exploit the terrorist attacks to go to war in Iraq, which I just assumed was a foregone conclusion. Also, I was protesting the treatment of Muslim students on campus, forty of whom left the school that fall because of the horrid way they were treated and the lack of action on the part of school administration.
A few years later I read A People's History of the United States, and the killed any patriotism I had left.
That book will do it. Oof.
I remember being viscerally angry when I finished it, just now knowing so much that had been deliberately withheld from me by the public school system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_People's_History_of_the_United_States
When it's less expensive to fly to another country to seek medical treatment than it is to use my insurance in America.
Not only fly to another country, but fly first class and stay in a nice hotel for a week.
Well I flew cheapo and stayed at a hostel 5 days. Not just cheaper mind you, tens of thousands cheaper.
I suppose it was after I read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair. That, plus my own personal struggles and being homeless despite working my ass off (and all of the issues that spawned from that), made it pretty apparent that life here wasn't as easy and great as I was raised to believe. I still love everything this country claims to be, and I appreciate how people can be upwardly mobile, and how refuges can come here and create a better life for themselves, but I definitely recognize the areas where we need to be a lot better.
When Bush 2 assumed office. Or, if not then, when all the bullshit about Iraq got going. I was for sure ashamed of my fellow citizens with the gd Freedom Fries and rah rah bullshit.
Younger millennial here: I don't remember a particular moment, but it was somewhere during the 2nd Bush administration. Between the horrible things that happened in Guantanamo Bay, the completely unjustified war on Iraq, and the harm I saw No Child Left Behind inflicting on my own community, the country's flaws were very apparent to me.
When an obvious charlatan got elected in 2016, that devastated my hope that things would improve.
It's not a lie, they just didn't say the competition is for the strongest empire instead of the best place to live.
Not an American, but I realised it when I had to talk one of my online friends out of suicide because he almost worked himself to death (ten or more hour shifts six days a week for over a month) and couldn't afford rent.
9/11. My first thought when watching TV that day was 'Bush did this'. Now maybe he did or maybe he didn't, but it's clear as day the US was just itching pass the Patriot Act and go to war. Every year since then has shown me this country's government couldn't give a shit about poor and downtrodden people in other countries. In fact, the US is doing the trodding, and the poor of this country are also in its sights.
At least we still have social programs here, which is good thing, but it feels like something left over from when more people cared.
I really, really wish the US would get the f out of the Middle East, stop arming Israel and begin making reparations. Unfortunately, those of us wanting peace tend to be meek (up to a point), which isn't a bad thing. Meek people can be strong enough to build a more stabile society, but a lot of unfortunate things are going to have to take place first.
An unironic "Bush did 9/11", incredible
Lol, I know. I was just saying what I thought then. Nowadays I believe the US knew of a plot, but failed to act for the reasons I gave before. Never let a good crisis go to waste, and all that.
When I was living in Japan and felt more "free" than in the US. "Land of the free" is such a load of shit.
School shootings and healthcare
The reality started to crumble in 4th grade. I had a history book that covered the "main" wars for the US. Chapters on WWI and WWII had sizable "causes for conflict" and those sections for Vietnam and Korea were much much smaller.
9/11 was just a few years after that moment for me. Seeing people around me laughing at the thought of "revenge" by bombing other people endlessly was a major crack. Farenheit 911 was the absolute "we're not the good guys" moment for me. My idea of patriotism shifted. I stopped believing that America was great, and started believing that America can be great, but it's gonna take a lot of work, work that half of my fellow Americans are unwilling to do.
As a kid in the 80's, I always picked the U.S.S.R. in video games because of their banger national anthem.
Have you read the lyrics?
when the newsroom premiered 😂
That opening speech? *chef's kiss*
Sadly it was largely downhill from there. Still watched it all tho because I’m sorkin-pilled
Nobody says it better.
When I was in basic training and during some down time one of the instructors put on a compilation of people deemed terrorists being killed in various ways. The majority of my fellow trainees were cheering and it weirded me the fuck out.
Two minutes hate
Yeah, fairly similar. Without the chanting tho
When I moved abroad for a half year.
Almost any stats.
Learning about how the settlers tricked the natives into “buying” land
When I moved out of my parents house and stopped watching fox news.
I figured out pretty quickly that there were really big differences between Fox,NBC and CNN, at that point I saw CNN as being approximately truthful.
A couple years later one of the guys that worked with had CNN lies bumper stickers. I thought BS, but realized I really should see what it was about.
I looked into that. And found that he wasn't wrong but it was way more complicated than that.
I realized that even the news channels with the most journalistic integrity still have numbers to make. If I'm not riled up they consider me under-consuming. And there were still agendas here and there.
In the Netherlands we had (and as far as I know, still have) state sponsored news and they are by law obliged to be truthful and neutral. I always found it to be a very trustworthy source, and I think this is something that other countries should do too. It had no numbers to make, they got paid no matter what, so they simply made the news, they were journalists. 10/10 would recommend
We had fairness in reporting laws until Reagan came through and nixed it.
That type of thing makes it better, but the bias still comes through in reporting choices. The right wing side always reports every piece of doom and gloom in the cities so they can make the case that the entire left-wing side is backing lawlessness.
Hell even if you take journalism out of it, every other neighborhood on social media will report that there are bands of roving kids running around thieving and fighting. Come to find out it's a bunch of high schoolers getting together in summer at a carnival. I mean, we even have gang activity here and there but they hardly report on it.
Put those laws back, then. Right now the most accurate news source I can find is the daily show, which is a Comedy show. Jon is hilarious for sure, but how the hell is it that a comedy show does better?
Require news shows to be factual or they can't call themselves news.
That narcissistic fake patriotism never resonated with me. Don't get me wrong, I love my country and the people in it but I wouldn't tolerate a person that was "me first" because it's obnoxious. I think the reason people latch onto it is to feel better about themselves. It's like racism. People like to imagine others beneath them. It takes no effort at all on their part
This is also how reality TV works and why everyone involved is so amazingly awful.
Realizing that being trans isn't a disorder or a"problem" and that being myself is important regardless of the stigma.
It's been downhill for Amerikkka sense then. More I learn about this country the more i absolutely hate it.
Iraq. Or maybe it was just meeting other folks from other places and realizing I’m more of a person than an American because while they may do things a bit differently over everywhere else they’re still just people over there. I grew to love my country in a “well it’s my home and I think we can make it better” way.
Though it may have been around my teenage years when the climate started collapsing and some dumbass motherfucker in congress brought a snowball to work to argue that climate change isn’t real. And not too long after the alt right started organizing and by the gods I learned some damn shame in my country over that bullshit.
probably after 9/11, but i already had questions as a kid connected to the cold war.
Yeah shortly after 9/11 is what did it for me. Learning who attacked us, why they would do that, stuff they didn't teach us in school. Then, when I learned the US was invading Iraq for made up reasons, I realized what the US really is.
To answer your question: in college, gradually.
We can't just say we're "the best country in the world", we have to live it. We have to, each of us, take responsibility to make it so. Instead, I see far too many people taking what others in the country might have done (We went to the moon first!) to stand as credit for their own personal pride. Not saying you can't be grateful for what's been accomplished, but there's many who just ride on it and don't really contribute anything meaningful of their own.
When I started playing PubG. All those people shouting 'China #1' can't possibly be wrong.
Growing up in western Washington does it to you automatically. No one I know has ever felt that way.
When I gave the books Manufacturing Consent and Consequences of Capitalism a fair chance, and learned about the brutal reality of our foreign policy that goes completely ignored in our history books
Also finding the channel Knowing Better on YouTube and learning much more about the history of Slavery and Native Americans
Great reads, also a great channel on YT.
Have you watched Second Thought videos? You'll like them: https://youtube.com/@secondthought
Yeah, I don't watch them too much but I do support that channel.
Also GDF when it comes to imperialist/colonialist conflicts, Leeja Miller on any US issues from a legal lense, and Hasan Piker on political commentary
When I became an adult and realized life isn't "My Team No Matter What" juvenile pissing contests.
“There are two types of patriotism, although sometimes the two are mingled in the same breast."
"The first kind one might call nationalism; nationalists believe that all other countries are inferior in every respect and that one would do them a favor by dominating them. Other countries are always in the wrong, they are less free, less civilized, are less glorious in battle, are perfidious, prone to falling for insane and alien ideologies which no reasonable person could believe, are irreligious and abnormal. Such patriots are the most common variety, and their patriotism is the most contemptible thing on earth."
“The second type of patriot is best described by returning to the example of General Fuerte. General Fuerte did not believe in ‘my country, right or wrong'; on the contrary, he loved his land despite the faults that he could so clearly see and that he labored to correct. It was his frequently stated opinion that anyone who supported his country when it was so obviously in the wrong, or who failed to see its faults, was the worst kind of traitor."
"Whereas the first kind of patriot really glories in his own irrationality and not in his country, General Carlo Maria Fuerte loved his country as a son loves his mother or a brother his sister.”
-Louis de Bernieres, The War of Don Emmanuel’s Nether Parts
I'm not sure it ever wasn't propaganda (they never provided any metrics) to me, but I think I started to care during the Bush II administration as an adolescent/teenager. I still remember thinking how f***ed up it was that Gore had the popular vote while still losing the election. --I guess that made me unsurprised when it happened again. I didn't realize how bizarre our 'Pledge of Allegiance' habits were until I was in my twenties, though.
My friend from Ukraine could not understand why and how someone would pay to be driven to the hospital in an ambulance.
I think since at least middle school. I was already aware of some of the lies and "half truths" that they were teaching us. I don't remember most of what they taught us but I remember telling some of my classmates about it and they acted like I was weird.
I grew up as a military brat and was thoroughly disillusioned about the US military before I was a teenager. On the UK RAF bases, i believe they tone down the jingoistic americanism a bit to not disturb the locals.
Everything else is just learning actual US history, and interacting with veterans; we're pretty fucked up for a country that hasn't even hit 300 years of age yet.
Wait.. what?? Isn't america the best country in the world?
It is by many measures. But there are a lot of problems too.
You know, I'm not sure one measure by which America is the best country in the world, at least with a metric that matters to the average person. So not like GDP, number of billionaires, or number of prisoners.
No, Kazakhstan is. All other countries are run by little girls.
Australia is run by Arisa Trew so we're doing pretty well at the moment.
Around 7th or 8th grade
8th Grade. When I got access to the internet.
Right after they told me that they would blow up the world to prove it.
That was a fairly shitty 8th birthday.
1984, when I moved to Jakarta.
Since time immemorial,
It's not a lie. It's a point of view. It's a declaration of intent. Being #1 isn't a privilege, it's a responsibility, and a choice.
The vast majority of people I see declaring we're #1 are taking credit for it but not working to be the best in the world. It's the people who are saying we shouldn't help other people outside the US (or even inside). It's not a declaration of intent for most people. It's a badge of pride that they don't deserve and don't intend to maintain.
If it actually were used like you imply, I don't doubt we would be the best. It would require us working to improve the world around us, not just benefit ourselves. Usually it's said out of nationalism though, not optimism.
Sorry, bullshit.
It's always "we're the beat, we're the best at X" whereas the reality is that you have rampant poverty, institutionalized racism (hello US police forces!), shit and unaffordable healthcare with (apparently) doctors who put their religion over their Hippocratic oath, unaffordable education which doesn't get you a good job anymore anyways, you don't work to live, you live to work, you have almost no vacation days whatsoever, you have no free days agter when your baby is born,you can't do anything anymore without a car, you have no freedoms, but they convinced you that parading around military style weapons is freedom somehow. You teach little children at school that sex is wrong, but it's good to knoe what to do when the next mass murderer visits your school again. Your police is racist, uneducated, inept, and corrupt..... I could go on, but you get the idea.
Sorry, America sucks, to paraphrase someone else in this thread: it's a third world country wearing the mask of a first world country.
Right. Being #1 means being the best. "We are the best at X" is an equivalent statement to "We're #1".
Not disputing that.
What I'm saying is that both of those statements can be, and are, statements of intent.
You really think a pizza place claiming "The best pizza in NYC!" thinks they're stating an objective fact? No, they're stating their commitment to acting as if that's their role. It's a commitment to excellence and striving.
Yeaaahhh, about that.
First of all that's not how language works. If you say A but then when called out on it say "well actually I meant b to be like a" then you're just lying
Then, that intent kind of becomes questionable too when your pizza parlor is rat infested and your pizzas are covered in mold. The US has great things, like all countries, but all takeb together I consider it a third world nation that ban barely get by.
All countries need patriotism, a little bit of 'we're better than everyone else/ the competition!' Is good for morale boosting and fostering nationalistic pride especially if your country isn't doing too hot socioeconomically. You don't have families of soldiers willing to send themselves and their children to fight wars if they didn't truly believe on some level america is #1. Id like to think its the same with most countries, nationalism is a powerful tool of propaganda.
Some pride in your country is definitely good, but its equally important (if not more) to notice things that could be improved and examples of other places that do things differently.
Yeah, I think you've both missed the point of this post, and are drunk on the kool aid
yes what would commoners do without empty sophistry to get them through the day
Internet made everything one big shitstorm.
When Dementia DonOLD was elected. I went from being proud to being embarrassed.
It is #1.
I say this having traveled around the world to experience everything from extreme poverty to extreme wealth.
By most measures, the US is still the best place to live for a vast majority of everyone.
It's not even in the top ten
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/standard-of-living-by-country
Even the fucking Cato institute puts the US at like 19th for freedom.
https://www.cato.org/human-freedom-index/2023
if 'everyone' means white men from wealthy families. The pollution and iffy food regulations alone make it pretty shit for the actual average person.
They really did a good job of brainwashing you, and many others.
It's far from the best or even one of the best, objectively. It's not even close to the top.
If you’re wealthy it’s the best place to live. If you’re not it sucks. Source, someone who’s travelled a bit, including the States, and has a reasonable amount to compare it to.
It is only good for high income individuals and the owners. Everybody else is eating shit.
What are you basing this claims on?