Years ago someone left my employer abruptly, and on their desk was left a fancy vertical mouse. It sat there for a few days, and I kept glancing over, at first ambivalent, but as time passed the temptation increased. I debated the dilemma of becoming a vertical mouse person, was that really for me? Eventually I succumbed and thought hey it's worth a try, see what it's like to be one of them... pure learning opportunity...
Then something happened... I got used to it in about a half hour and in the first day my precision improved. A sudden urge came over me to tell all my coworkers, was I really becoming one of those people so fast? Trying to resist was futile and within a couple days I became a vertical mouse person, always wanting to tell everyone how great they are, constantly resisting the urge. I forgot what life was like with a horizontal mouse, and I never looked back.
That wasn't cautionary at all it's just a fucking advert.
hail vertical mouse corporate
It's just a general ad paid for by Big Vertical Mouse.
;) You'll understand when you use a vertical mouse.
The Linux of mice
Trackball gang represent
real mice have balls
Have ball
All hail trackballs ٩( ᐛ )و
Any recommendations? I had to swap out my Microsoft Trackball Explorer as it didn't keep up any more.
I've been using Kensington Orbit (with scroll) and it's been great.
If it just had three buttons, it'd be perfect. As it is, I'm using the Orbit Fusion as my couch mouse, with the "Forward" button remapped to left-click, which lets me rest my hand similar to how I would on the "classic" Orbit.
Ploopy Classic, it's a modern version of that. Open source software (QMK) and hardware
Recently picked up the Kingsenton Slimblade Pro. Love it.
Elecom
CST L-Trac enjoyer reporting in! Come to our party, we have custom 3D printed tents and custom additional programmable buttons!
What is a tent in this context?
A stand that helps keep your hand and arm in a neutral position while you're using the device 😊 It might not be the perfect term in this context, but it's widely used with split mechanical keyboards (which I also use a tent for)
Thank you very much.
I clean mine every 3-7 days. Some times it gathers cat hair (I assume) faster than others.
Thumball with 3D printed vertical stand yes I got asked about it a lot
I’m getting proud parent vibes from your creation.
I have that same mouse for work stuff. Care to share the model for printing?
You'll need some kind of grippy stuff on bottom. I used an adhesive rubber mat like this https://a.co/d/g8UqtfV and cut it out or those little stick on rubber feet might work.
Thanks a million.
I've got a rubber mat that's meant to keep stuff stable on a dashboard. Little worried that it's too thick and the end result will be wobbly, but a hardware store is close by.
As an IT support person, the problem I have with these mice is that the left mouse button is also on the vertical. So when heavy-handed users click on a file in explorer, they also slightly drag down, so the file “disappears” into a folder, and now it’s a support ticket to get the file restored.
Sigh.
I was remembering just now I used to have one but I gave up on it almost immediately after using irl Thanks for reminding me why I quickly moved on from vertical mouse.
I feel sick to my stomach thinking back to my IT help desk days.
They are great, but I have two issues with my left handed one:
Right handed people just cannot use it, I can't just give someone else my mouse for a minute.
For some stupid reason, the left and right mouse button are switched, so now I have to switch it back in software, so now the buttons on my laptop touchpad are switched.
The IT manager at my previous job used this as a security feature.
People thought that because he was the IT manager he could just get another mouse, so they'd just take his when they left their mouse at home and never return it.
So he got a left handed vertical mouse even though he is right handed.
Nobody steals his mouse now because it is vertical and cannot be used in the right hand.
We had a guy learn Dvorak specifically so no one could take his keyboard. Madman or brilliant?
Can't you just go into system settings and have it function as qwerty? You wouldn't be able to hunt for a key, but if you touch type it shouldn't matter.
I think if the keyboard had dvorak in it's firmware (rather than set on the pc) you would need a dvorak-to-qwerty conversion setting which I've never seen on a pc.
Most custom layouts (mine included) just assume the keyboard is sending qwerty.
As a left handed mouse user i wouls steal it fir shits and giggles
I've got a left handed mouse with switched buttons. I'm so used to it now that it takes a good 5 seconds for me to figure out how a normal mouse works.
I've used the standard button layout of a right handed mouse all my life, I'm not suddenly switching now.
I need me a Logitech G502 hero equivalent but vertical, no way I'm giving up all these extra quick buttons
Really love the feel of my Logitech G pro tbh. Super clicky, light, and smooth. The texture of the material is great too.
It's not at all ergonomic bc it is an ambidextrous design but it hasn't bothered me yet and I use my PC way more than I should.
I'm not sure I want completely vertical on a 502 variant, but angled maybe 30 degrees from where it is and the thumb buttons moved back a hair would be my ideal mouse.
I'm with you, that or a g903 equivalent. But it has to have Lightning and Powerplay support.
Trackball gang.
Mx Ergo, best of both worlds
I have a couple friends that play PC games on old-school Trackman trackballs. The amount of griping when we play a game with something bound by default to the mousewheel is INCREDIBLE.
That's like using a Dvorak keyboard and complaining that games default to WASD bindings. This is the exact reason why key remapping is a standard feature on PC games but not on consoles
The old Trackmans have very limited inputs relative to modern gaming mice. There are some trackballs with scroll wheels, but they have different ergonomics (you rotate the ball with your thumb rather than your index, middle, and ring fingers) that my buddies aren't fond of.
Given that theirs is a very niche use case, I don't think anybody's gonna make a trackball to suit them that also has a scroll wheel, but I guess if somebody was motivated enough, there's an opportunity for some sort of ESP-based open source hardware.
Right, but ultimately their complaint is that a game has actions bound to a scroll wheel and they could simply rebind those actions to something else.
Though the complaint does become legitimate if they are playing one of the handful of poor PC ports out there that lacks key remapping (cough*transformerswarforcybertron*cough)
I've always been curious about this. Do they play FPS games by chance? If so, how's their aim compared to a traditional mouse? I've always had this intuition that it would be easier to aim with a trackball, but I've never gotten one to see for myself.
Came here to say that
i find these WAY more painful to use than a normal mouse, it puts all my weight on that hemispherical bit in the wrist and the angle is just slightly off being the neutral position for my hand so it's instead constantly putting stress on the arm..
i want one that's just slightly more tilted than a normal mouse.
My Logitech MX Master 2 has a decent amount of angle without being vertical, maybe something like that is what you're looking for?
MX Master is my favorite mouse line by far. Amazing scroll wheel, side scroll wheel, good angle and buttons, and can swap between 3 computers.
I have my Master 3 set up for my work pc, my Surface, and my editing computer.
that does look good!
You could also use one of those silicone mouse pads.
They're also SOOOO HEAVY, though maybe I've been spoiled by my G Pro Superlight.
I use this at work because I have a standing desk and was getting wrist pains. Forcing my hand to tilt also forces
It's a shit mouse on purpose.
You uh, want to finish that middle sentence?
big vertical mouse got them before they could finish
Those are called rats.
Vertical mouse is a rat?. I am confused
trackball gang
trackball gang
trackball gang
Touchpad keyboard gang.
If there were a modern version of this with a multi-touch trackpad I might actually consider this.
I just bought a trackball but it has intolerable sticktion.
Trackball gang is a lie!
Have you tried cleaning it? If that doesn't fix it then that sucks, I have a gameball and it's smooth as ice.
Yeah sure. Elecom Deft, I got mislead by a review. After getting it I searched some more, and apparently the ball is too soft and the point bearing can be replaced to be zirconium instead of ruby. But I suspect I'm just more sensitive to sticktion. From what I've read there are "ball transfer unit" that completely eliminate sticktion. They are a bit louder and not quite as smooth, but afaik there is no trackball using it.
So my guess is that people that use trackballs simply don't really experience discomfort, and probably don't really feel pain either :D So back to the mouse pit with me!
I have an Orbit Fusion for the couch. I looked at the Elecoms, but I just really like the scrollring. In my perfect world there'd be a god-damned three-button orbit with scrollring, but in the meantime remapping the Fusion's "Forward" button lets me use it with similar ergonomics. I notice the stiction, but it's a very minor little aspect of using the trackball, and it's not distracting enough for me to feel like I need to replace the bearings. I did do the "rub some nose oil on it" thing and that helped some.
There are a few DIY designs floating around that use BTUs, and some have certainly made their way into ergo keyboards, but I don't know of a commercial product that uses them.
Yeah I read this https://www.gbryant.co.uk/posts/2021-02-15_ploopy-trackball/post.html Once I have a 3D printer I'll try building one. First without electronics to see if I like the haptic. Then I could add more buttons to that too or combine it with a 3D printed case for an ergo split keyboard.
I feel like any sticktion at all would be distracting me and ruining any chance to make very precise movements. So I don't want to buy any more trackballs for now.
I think Elecoms are prone to sticktion. I have an Elecom Huge and I had to replace the bearings to make it smoother. None of my other trackballs have that much sticktion, my Kensington Slimblade in particular is buttery smooth.
Brand new trackballs can sometimes have some stick-slip. But they "wear in before they wear out" with use. Popping the ball out and cleaning it with warm soapy water and a rinse helps a lot. And whenever the ball feels sticky a wash is in order.
My current Logi tech ball mouse had a tiny defect in the ball that a minute's worth of 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper fixed. It's now rolls like it's running on air bearings.
You just have a bad trackball. My Kensington Expert glides smooth.
When a mouse and a joystick love each other very much, this is the end result.
Even better, join the trackball gang
Tried so hard, couldn't do it, used them exclusively for weeks and it just always felt awkward.
Trackballs are the most cultured choice, although I wish I could buy one that's huge like the one on that golf game that used to be in arcades.
That looks like a regular trackball in a large base. I looked it up and the Elecom huge is a smaller ball than a regular Kensington. (54 vs 55mm).
2 weeks trackball. never looking back.
looking for a work trackball now.
I requested a track ball at work, turns out, they had like 20 of them in some storage room that no one wanted to use. Shortly after I began using a track ball, others also wanted to try it out. Basically my entire department now uses trackballs at work lol
This is the way.
Trackball gang, how do you like trackballs for 3D CAD? Are there ones that can interpret three distinct axes of rotation or is everything just using two?
I have never done anything related to CAD, so I have no idea.
Okay, now what?
Vertical keyboard
I hate how mechanical keyboards set ergonomics back 30 years.
Instead of starting with the great ergonomic layouts of MS Natural etc and adding superior switches, mechanical keyboard manufacturers went back to the 1970's with super flat designs.
Any suggestions for a good quality vertical? The one the office purchased for me feels cheap and the time-to-sleep is too short(mouse doesn't wake on motion).
The two I've used are the one in the image (it's from Anker, I forget the model) and Logitech's MX Vertical (they have a second, smaller version if the original is too big). I've been maining the Vertical the past 4 years for work and personal use.
Both have pros and cons:
Anker is cheaper. ~$35 vs ~$80.
Also has a built in slot to put the receiver in when not in use.
It curves with your hand more than the Vertical.
Anker uses easily replaceable AAA batteries. Usually lasted me about 3 months before I needed to swap them. I only used it for work though.
The Vertical can connect to 3 different devices (1 dongle, 2 Bluetooth) whereas Anker is limited to whatever the dongle is connected to.
The Vertical is made of better feeling materials; like a rubber for extra grip vs hard plastic with the Anker.
There's a USB C port to charge its (not easily replaceable) battery.
Edit: Vertical won't go to "sleep" like the Anker will. If the Anker isn't touched for X minutes, it will go to sleep and you'll have to click one of the switches to wake it. Otherwise moving it won't move the cursor. Not that huge of an issue, but definitely annoying if you don't know what's going on.
However, there is a design flaw with the Vertical. Logitech run their wireless mice at very low voltage and current to save on battery. That's how they get a 240 mAh battery to last for around a month of heavy use.
The problem with this is you need to use particular switches, otherwise corrosion starts to build up on the connectors. This corrosion leads to incomplete or missed clicks, phantom double clicks, or it's impossible to hold a click.
From what I remember, standard switches are designed for 5V, since that's what wired mice normally run at. But modern wireless mice operate around a tenth of that. Logitech never made the switch (heh) to switches rated for that low voltage. At least not when I bought mine.
My Vertical had that issue. And rather than buy an entirely new mouse, I went in, desoldered the old switches and replaced them with new ones (I think I went with Kale's light blue switches). I did that in summer '22 and haven't had any issues since.
The rubber material is also showing wear and tear where my fingers sit, but that's just cosmetic.
I got the Anker one for my mom holiday '22 and she's been happy with it. It helped the discomfort in her hand.
Both mice improved the stiffness in my right hand, so either one will get the job done. I will also say that there is a bit of an adjustment period. Surprisingly, changing the angle of your hand kind of throws you off and takes some getting used to. Before my office went remote, my coworkers would avoid using it because it wasn't easy for them to switch to for just a short period of time.
Hopefully this info is helpful. I can try answering any questions you have on them, but those are the only two I have experience in.
Edit 2: Phrasing
Is it possible to use any of the two wired? Or are there better wired alternatives?
The Anker doesn't have a port to use wired. But you can with the Logitech. You can also use it while it's charging.
Actually the Anker comes in wired predominantly; I usually find them while looking for the other.
The wired version of the Anker is better than the wireless, imo. I've had the wired version at work for three years now and have been happy with it - comfy, pretty light, cord is a good length. My coworker has the wireless and when I use it I find it heavier and less responsive.
There is a design flaw with the Vertical. Logitech, like with other mice, use the wrong switches in it. The mouse operates at very low voltage and current; lower than what the switches are rated for. This leads to corrosion building up on the metal switches, leading to incomplete/missed clicks, phantom double clicks, or impossible to hold a click.
Wow that is a major screw up. Probably part of the planned obsolescence though.
It's very possible. It happened to a previous Logitech mouse of mine, which led to me using a Razer for the next 6 years.
And with how much work it was to take this apart, I could see them wanting me to just buy a new $80-100 mouse every two years.
I went down a rabbit hole to find this info out. People dug deep trying to find what was going on with the switches.
So basically you're saying that my beloved MX Vertical will 100% fail pretty soon? I freaking love this mouse, it's so comfortable and elegant and a joy to use :(
It's possible. There's also a chance Logitech started using the right switches by the time you bought yours. Once you start getting the weird clicking behavior, that's a sign the switches are on their way out.
But if you're willing to put in the work, you can replace the switches yourself. iFixit has instructions on how to replace the switches. I followed that and I was able to successfully swap mine.
Good to know, I'll look out for those signs then, thanks a lot!
Praise iFixit. Soldering required does mean that I'll have to learn that first though. Do you have, by any chance, a recommendation for a sort of "intro to soldering" type of video/content that I can start with?
Sadly, I don't. I pretty much looked online for a recommended temp for my soldering iron, picked a tip that seemed appropriate, and slowly desoldered it.
Pro tips: get a tool to hold the circuit board for you. I didn't have one when I did it and it was a pain the ass. And actually dangerous because you have your fingers working near a very hot piece of metal.
Also the switches are connected by 3 rather spaced solder points. You'll have to balance heating all the solder points to keep it soft, and then use a pair of tweezers to slowly wiggle the switch out.
Putting the new switch in is easier. Just need to make sure you orient it correctly and make sure it isn't misaligned. Or else it might not click right. Thankfully it's not hard to line up.
Got it, thanks! Very specific advice, I feel a bit more secure now and I'll save this for when I have to replace the switches, that being hopefully never :P.
I've tried so many vertical mice, but for some reason this one worked out the best for me. It kind of feels cheap compared to others, but I've had it for a number of years and I haven't found anything that can top it. It's worth trying out if anyone is on the fence since it is priced under $20.
I think it's because it's an unapologetic vertical mouse. Most others are just slanted mice. Note that the furst couple days might be slow because you have to adjust to using your arm that way.
I got this one in uni because my wrist just didn't like being flat, and I used computers a lot. This one matches my resting position really well, and the wrist rest means I'm not sliding the side of my hand all over the desk.
I thought you reached into my brain and posted this for me. 😂
I have exactly the same problem.
I use this one, mostly because it was pretty cheap, is wireless and has a rechargeable battery.
I would splurge a little more now that I like using a vertical one, but I was afraid of spending a lot just to shelve it for eternity like I did with some other devices...
I tried and ironically my wrists didn't like it at all.
I had a chat about switching to a vertical mouse, with the Ergonomist (desk ergonomics guy) at my workplace.
I short, he told me that if a regular mouse doesn't cause issues, it's not a good idea to switch. As your wrist and hand will have to adjust to different kinds of loads and movements which can start causing issues.
I've never tried it but the idea of constantly holding something just sounds like hell for the carpals.
You don't hold them any more than a horizontal mouse
Wouldn't you thumb it against your palm so that your fingers are always aligned with the buttons, such is the case with laying your hand atop a regular mouse?
Well... I know there's actually three ways to hold a traditional mouse, I saw a video about it once. Which was surprising to me, but mostly because I have big hands and I can only hold a mouse one way.
But for me when I'm holding a horizontal mouse the mouse is "grasped" by my hand as a whole, and I'd say my pinky and thumb are in a way holding the mouse.
With a vertical mouse it's much the same where my whole hand is grasping. I'm not holding it any more with my thumb because the thumb rests on the body of the mouse. In fact as I think about it and type this out I think I have to hold a horizontal mouse more than a vertical, but again it might just be related to hand size.
I use both. Horizontal for gaming so I can have more than two thumb buttons. Vertical for work as it does give my wrist and forearm a "rest."
Edit: realized I didn't necessarily answer your question. For me with the vertical mouse the buttons are just there where they need to be. And I guess clicking is a form of holding...
The G502 has a thumbplatform, so that's where my thumb goes. My pinky can't touch the mouse cause my ring finger is in the way. But its slightly tilted, so its not exactly a horizontal mouse. Not nearly as vertical as this though. I just move it via the top of my palm. A vertical mouse seems like it would be uncomfortable in my right hand but fine with my left (maybe related to mixed handedness, maybe related to the different ways my wrists healed after breaking).
You just lay your hand on it. After a few minutes it settles as a natural resting position. And let me tell you, it's sooooo much better than resting your hand on a traditional mouse.
Best thing: these cheap vertical mice are not inherently worse than, say, a Logitech MX vertical. Just give it a try for 20 bucks.
Well random cheap mice could die after a while (happened to my brother), or need battery replacements often (happens to a colleague). Logi MX vertical has the benefit that you can charge it, and it lasts quite a long time before you need to recharge it.
Though honestly I'd never spend €100+ on a mouse. My company offered money to buy office things, I didn't need anything so I took the mx vertical haha.
The more somebody tries to sell me something, the more apprehensive I am to it.
But wait, there's more! For only 85 easy payments of $69.69 you can get 420 more copies of hurdurhurdur weekly!
:P
I was experiencing some wrist pain at work so I had my employer buy me one. If you have real ergonomics concerns, you can always try that route.
Just like a "normal" mouse you don't hold it as much as you push it around. But we (at least, me and the people I've discussed this with) tend to actually "hold" normal mouses more because they are rarely very ergonomic and you can't really move them in a satisfactory manner without gripping them at least a little.
Have you ever tried one of the MX masters? I used to have wrist problems but my master 3 just fits so well (the buttons are slightly angled, not as extremely as these vertical mice but like 20°) and its big enough to be able to comfortably rest my entire hand on it...
I briefly tried one, it's probably my favorite Logitech mouse so far. I actually considered buying one when I had to change my mouse but I'm a sucker for those 12 buttons panels the razer nagas have
This makes sense. I LOVE my Logitech G502, but even though it seems "palmy" and my hands aren't even that big, I end up claw-grabbing the thing really hard!
Yeah I had that one at work for a while and had the same problem ! Out of frustration I ended up trying out an ergonomic mouse just like in the OP that was lying around, and never came back
I'm not the only one who sees a shark with its jaws opened, right?
Yup! But is the top eyes or nostrils?
Wait.. Edit. Had to check, yes sharks have nostrils 🙃
so i love my mx master and i use the freewheeling scroll wheel all the time. the mx vertical mouse has a standard scroll wheel :p
Logi lift hás freewheeling too
I had constant wrist pain and switched to evoluent vertical mouse in like 2015 and haven’t had pain since. And it’s an added layer of security
I had the exact same scenario! Just a few years before your issue, I fell and landed on my right hand, straining my wrist. It wasn't broken, but it was really sore and months later it still hurt just as badly, so I went to a doctor. He said the tendons and the sheath they go through were likely inflamed, and all my mousing (both work and home) was probably keeping it inflamed. I switched to the evoluent at work and a Logitech thumb ball at home, and two weeks later I was fine.
Move the wheel under the thumb. Until then it's anything but ergonomic.
If I have to move my wrist,l it's a deal breaker
Knock over your mouse countless times while moving your arm around.
Still worth it, though.
I can hear this comment °-°
keyboard, with touchpad fallback when it's absolutely necessary gang
Mmmm. Maybe but what about scrolling. I bet you cant beat my scrollinh accuracy or speed with a keyboard.
PgUp/PgDown when easily possible to use (the webpage/program isn't crap etc) is very quick. If that doesn't work, i can probably still outscroll or at least match you with two thumb scroll on the touchpad.
What I'm genuinely not sure about is how healthy touchpaddin' is on the wrist... but i've been doing it for about 25 years without major issues so i guess i at last for used to it.
at least match you with two thumb scroll on the touchpad.
Depends what kind of wheel they're rollin'. Some, a single flick of the finger is enough to keep it rolling high-speed for a while. Even if you could keep up with that, it would be miserable unless you had momentum settings set to impractical levels.
Oh yes forgot about those fancy bois. Then i'll just go with the pgup/pgdn argument :)
Yes! The pictured one is a good one too. But currently using the Logitech MX Vertical.
Trackpoint gang!
Trackpoints are great, they're my second choice when I can't use a trackball for some reason. Unfortunately, it's basically impossible to design a split keyboard with a trackpoint.
Been uing them for a long time. But it is really hard to find a good one under 40/50€. Normal mouses have a lot of the goodones in 30€.
Anker makes a decent one, which can be bought for $20 or a bit less. Should be said it is the only vertical mouse I've used, but it works as a mouse and I haven't had shoulder tension/aches since I started using it.
Honestly, I was, indeed, refering to that one. I dind't know anker was doing one, but it is the same generic that many brands are selling. It's optical and not laser, therefore precision is mediocre and the battery doesn't last too long like the laser ones. Also the construction materials feel pretty bad. I mean, it's what could you expect from a cheap mouse. But again, the normal mouses have much better mouses and with laser sensors for similar prices.
How do you grasp it? Do you hold it like a massive cock? A gearstick? A pencil?
it's like gripping the pistol-style grip on a rifle. benefit: you'll use your elbow and arm muscles more in moving it around, placing less stress on the wrist muscles. It's a much more natural grip.
More like a firearm. Not that I have handled many firearms.
I really wish, they would release a gaming oriented vertical mouse. High DPI sensor, good clicker switches, etc. Right now stuck with my Logitech lift that tops out at 4000 dpi and has mushy switches.
Vertical gaming mice are good in theory, but they're bad for aim. Since you're clicking vertically, you actually very slightly move your mouse with each click. It throws off your aim :/
That and I claw grip too hard to ever get comfortable with them. But to each their own.
I saw one an am curious, does it work well with fps games?
Depends what you expect. On a pro tournament level, nobody will use a vertical mouse. Usually they are a little bit heavier than regular mouses, plus they have a slightly higher center of gravity. This makes them a little bit more "wobbly" during ultra fast movements.
However, for regular playing, they work just fine. I don't play on pro level, but okay competitive shooters almost daily, and I haven't noticed any real disadvantage. And it helped my wrists enormously, because I'm a full time office worker as well.
I decided a couple years ago that the small theoretical disadvantage is not worth the risk of RSI and have been using the cheap CSL/Anker/whatever vertical mouses since.
Only very recently I boughta second, regular mouse with more thumb buttons, useful for some sim games I play. I now tend to switch fairly randomly between the two, which probably is even better for hand and wrist.
Additional info: getting used to a vertical mouse takes much less time than most people expect. Yes, it's weird at first, but start working or gaming and you'll stop noticing the different posture very quickly.
Recently there is actually a mild push for gaming vertical mice so that gap might shorten over time. A friend of mine does Valorant semi-pro and he uses a vertical mouse as well.
I wouldn't be opposed to a gaming mouse with extra buttons. Back in college a gf gave me a Razer mouse with a full numpad where the thumb sits. Was absolutely amazing for games with commands tied to those. Having something like that as a vertical mouse would be perfect.
The only problem I see is when I click, I instinctively press my thumb into the mouse for stability. I trained that out of myself for the most part, but that could cause me to accidentally press a button when I didn't want to. So they'll have to be mindful of that when designing one.
I can't tell any difference with my aim using a vertical mouse, so I wouldn't stress it.
If anything, it adds a bit of realism cause you hold the mouse at a more similar angle as holding a gun. IMO it's worth it for the strain relief alone.
Yeah, I'm thinking of trying a not so expensive ones first just to get a feel if I'll like it.
My overall accuracy seemed to be just a little bit better at first, but if you're like me, struggling with severe impulse control and will play games for 10 hours straight some days, it's actually so much better. Your wrist doesn't get nearly as tired and you can make some crazy flick shots really consistently
You may need to adjust your sensitivity as your wrist is now moving at a different angle
I moved back to a standard mouse because I like side buttons and I couldn't find any good vertical mice with more the two (at the time, that may not be true anymore)
I saw a some versions with 2 more buttons. They're either above or below the length of the thumb.
My mouse has a total of 12 programmable buttons across the whole thing.
Not in my experience. It's novel for work but once I had it for awhile I went back to another mouse. I don't think they are as useful as others say. Seems more like a preference.
I haven't tried a lot of those, but it would take a lot of practice to achieve similar accuracy.
I use a split keyboard and trackball at work, and I thoroughly enjoy the bafflement of my coworkers when they try to use my computer.
As a CAD industrial drafter, I approve.
For ergonomics, it's a great office mouse. But just a heads up you're clicking horizontally so you slightly move the cursor every time you click. Kinda bad for gaming.
It's really bad for gaming since the rotation of the wrist restricts the range of motion compared to palm grip standard mouse, never mind claw grip.
How far have you sent your vertical mouse flying off the desk?
I know you've done it. Right after you typed that thing and went to click that button.
Life is hard for vertical mice.
I have never done that, actually. My wife, on the other hand...
lol I got the exact mouse in the post right next to me. it was the cheapest vertical mouse I could find and the scroll wheel makes awful skreeching noises. Works perfectly though and the wrist pain is long gone
same. The battery was shit though, so I replaced it with a larger one
touchpad gang (i cant be bothered spending money)
trackball
Mice rise up
I have a MX Vertical at work and Logi Ergos (both the 570 and a MX Ergo) at home, they are great. Love the battery life of the MX Ergo, I sometimes forget I even have to charge the damn thing. However I did have to change the main buttons in the MX Ergo, the switch were failing and it ended up double clicking
Shame about the polling rate on the vertical, looks very jagged on 144hz+ monitors
Mind if I ask, Where did you shop for the switches
I ended buying Kailh Teal switches on AliExpress. But I also saw Alps switches like the ones Logi uses on eBay
Yay! There are dozens of us! A cheap trackball is one of the best things I have ever bought. No pain, and it is really accurate.
I did have a regular mouse in my pc too so that other people could use my pc without complaining, but donated it to one of the new people at work. But happy, nice mouse makes the day better.
I tried a number of those and couldn't get used to it. I'd get soreness and cramps after the same amount of time but in different locations mostly around the thumb where the skin stretches when you do pistol hands.
In the most recent past I'd been using the elecom huge trackball but it's not without it's issues either. I don't actually recommend elecom they have quality control issues and the deft has the most infuriating mouse wheel. Thumb trackball gave me similar soreness to vertical mouse, and index finger trackball the back of my hand where the fingers attach.
Now I'm using just the steam deck and a Thinkpad laptop lately and those also introduce their own flavour of hand strain after a while.
Apart from the high cost of the hobby, we have reached an era of peak keyboard greatness, but we don't seem have many immediately apparent custom mouse options. Not that I would have any idea what wouldn't hurt me physically. Maybe one of the diy keyboards with a built in trackball.
I tried one of these and I hated it.
Same. I use CAD all day & really wanted to like it.
My two big issues was that gravity was working against my fingers to keep them on the buttons, and also the side of my palm would rub along the surface if the desk as I used it. I had to hold my hand up and in position the whole time instead of just laying it on there like a normal mouse, got hand cramps after one day of using it. Thankfully I was just borrowing it from a coworker who also hated it so I had no investment lol.
I had a thumb trackball for years, miss it tbh.
Edit I've got one in my Amazon basket now.
Edit 2 it's been binned from the basket after reading reviews and now I have a Logitech Ergo coming today
Thumb ball master race chuckles with amusement as they look down upon this post from Olympus.
Or use as a buttplug with the same results.
Chess gang shit
I've always wanted one of these. I found one made by Anker for 25 USD. Thank you reminding me
Honestly I have it and it changed everything for me. Took a bit to get used to (maybe a couple days) but it's so worth it.
Downside is that the receiver range isn't as far as I'd like it to be.
It works great, but can eat batteries
I tried it and I got wrist pain that I never had from the horizontal mouse
I guess my body is completely set? (been using a normal mouse for many, many hours since I was 10yo)
If you suffer from wrist or elbow pain from using a regular mouse you’re best off doing strength exercises and proper stretching for those muscle groups. I find that to be more effective than using one of these vertical mice as your issue is likely from muscle overuse. Vertical mice can help but if you’re on your computer all day you’re bound to still have the same issue from overuse of your muscles.
Just my experience tho everyone is different.
That's not how an RSI works. It's not muscle issues at all, it's the tendons that get inflamed from over use and that inflammation pushes against the tendon cords that bind them and that's what causes the pain.
Muscle exercises don't do anything to help.
It is a muscle issue. The reason your tendons are over stressed is because the muscles supporting them are also over used.
This is why when you go to the doctor for RSI the most common treatment is rest AND muscle exercises.
Strong muscles gives your tendons a break.
I have a stationary mouse that's kinda like that.
I will buy it but this type of mouse is so expensive for me :(
How expensive is it? I bought one for like $30 CAD
Really?? Last time I checked it was around $100. Then, I will think about it. Thanks
They aren't that expensive. There are a lot of good options around $20-$30, even for gaming.
I bought a wireless cheap brand one from Officeworks in Australia for $20AUD to see if I liked the form factor.
I did so I ultimately went and bought my Logitech Lift which has been great for study and general use, although I still go for my traditional gaming mouse over it if I'm gaming.
Weird that this subject popped up. I was looking into this yesterday. As for cost I found a wired model for 13 bucks Canadian.
At that point, why not just use a joystick? I guess this would be faster; I assume you still move it around like a mouse you're just holding it like a joystick.
I wonder how good IntelliJ's support for joystick is.
Rotating your wrist upward just opens up your arm/shoulder/wrist into their correct positions.
Wrist-aiming/clicking is bad for you long term, just learn how to use your arm to move the mouse around on a lower sensitivity :)
What's bad for you is incorrect posture and resting your wrist on the desk or a pad while actively using your wrist. If you sit at the right distance and height, you shouldn't be bending your wrist up or down at all.
Source: Have carpal tunnel and was given guides on proper posture and peripheral use by my doctor.
Hard for those of us who have different-than-expected-proportions. I have a custom built desk at home so it's not a problem, but my work desk is just too high. Even at its highest, my chair doesn't raise me up enough to allow me to sit ergonomically since I have a short torso. The vertical mouse helps make up for it, though.
I'm tall so most things are too short. If your work has an ergo specialist, however, you could possibly request a higher chair or lower desk. I've only had two jobs that were cool like that, tho.
A cautionary tale if you're considering.
Years ago someone left my employer abruptly, and on their desk was left a fancy vertical mouse. It sat there for a few days, and I kept glancing over, at first ambivalent, but as time passed the temptation increased. I debated the dilemma of becoming a vertical mouse person, was that really for me? Eventually I succumbed and thought hey it's worth a try, see what it's like to be one of them... pure learning opportunity...
Then something happened... I got used to it in about a half hour and in the first day my precision improved. A sudden urge came over me to tell all my coworkers, was I really becoming one of those people so fast? Trying to resist was futile and within a couple days I became a vertical mouse person, always wanting to tell everyone how great they are, constantly resisting the urge. I forgot what life was like with a horizontal mouse, and I never looked back.
That wasn't cautionary at all it's just a fucking advert.
hail vertical mouse corporate
It's just a general ad paid for by Big Vertical Mouse.
;) You'll understand when you use a vertical mouse.
The Linux of mice
Trackball gang represent
real mice have balls
Have ball
All hail trackballs ٩( ᐛ )و
Any recommendations? I had to swap out my Microsoft Trackball Explorer as it didn't keep up any more.
I've been using Kensington Orbit (with scroll) and it's been great.
If it just had three buttons, it'd be perfect. As it is, I'm using the Orbit Fusion as my couch mouse, with the "Forward" button remapped to left-click, which lets me rest my hand similar to how I would on the "classic" Orbit.
Ploopy Classic, it's a modern version of that. Open source software (QMK) and hardware
Recently picked up the Kingsenton Slimblade Pro. Love it.
Elecom
CST L-Trac enjoyer reporting in! Come to our party, we have custom 3D printed tents and custom additional programmable buttons!
What is a tent in this context?
A stand that helps keep your hand and arm in a neutral position while you're using the device 😊 It might not be the perfect term in this context, but it's widely used with split mechanical keyboards (which I also use a tent for)
Thank you very much.
I clean mine every 3-7 days. Some times it gathers cat hair (I assume) faster than others.
Thumball with 3D printed vertical stand yes I got asked about it a lot
I’m getting proud parent vibes from your creation.
I have that same mouse for work stuff. Care to share the model for printing?
Yeah np
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2684322
You'll need some kind of grippy stuff on bottom. I used an adhesive rubber mat like this https://a.co/d/g8UqtfV and cut it out or those little stick on rubber feet might work.
Thanks a million.
I've got a rubber mat that's meant to keep stuff stable on a dashboard. Little worried that it's too thick and the end result will be wobbly, but a hardware store is close by.
As an IT support person, the problem I have with these mice is that the left mouse button is also on the vertical. So when heavy-handed users click on a file in explorer, they also slightly drag down, so the file “disappears” into a folder, and now it’s a support ticket to get the file restored.
Sigh.
I was remembering just now I used to have one but I gave up on it almost immediately after using irl Thanks for reminding me why I quickly moved on from vertical mouse.
I feel sick to my stomach thinking back to my IT help desk days.
They are great, but I have two issues with my left handed one:
The IT manager at my previous job used this as a security feature.
People thought that because he was the IT manager he could just get another mouse, so they'd just take his when they left their mouse at home and never return it.
So he got a left handed vertical mouse even though he is right handed.
Nobody steals his mouse now because it is vertical and cannot be used in the right hand.
We had a guy learn Dvorak specifically so no one could take his keyboard. Madman or brilliant?
Can't you just go into system settings and have it function as qwerty? You wouldn't be able to hunt for a key, but if you touch type it shouldn't matter.
I think if the keyboard had dvorak in it's firmware (rather than set on the pc) you would need a dvorak-to-qwerty conversion setting which I've never seen on a pc.
Most custom layouts (mine included) just assume the keyboard is sending qwerty.
As a left handed mouse user i wouls steal it fir shits and giggles
I've got a left handed mouse with switched buttons. I'm so used to it now that it takes a good 5 seconds for me to figure out how a normal mouse works.
I've used the standard button layout of a right handed mouse all my life, I'm not suddenly switching now.
I need me a Logitech G502 hero equivalent but vertical, no way I'm giving up all these extra quick buttons
Really love the feel of my Logitech G pro tbh. Super clicky, light, and smooth. The texture of the material is great too.
It's not at all ergonomic bc it is an ambidextrous design but it hasn't bothered me yet and I use my PC way more than I should.
I'm not sure I want completely vertical on a 502 variant, but angled maybe 30 degrees from where it is and the thumb buttons moved back a hair would be my ideal mouse.
I'm with you, that or a g903 equivalent. But it has to have Lightning and Powerplay support.
Trackball gang.
Mx Ergo, best of both worlds
I have a couple friends that play PC games on old-school Trackman trackballs. The amount of griping when we play a game with something bound by default to the mousewheel is INCREDIBLE.
That's like using a Dvorak keyboard and complaining that games default to WASD bindings. This is the exact reason why key remapping is a standard feature on PC games but not on consoles
The old Trackmans have very limited inputs relative to modern gaming mice. There are some trackballs with scroll wheels, but they have different ergonomics (you rotate the ball with your thumb rather than your index, middle, and ring fingers) that my buddies aren't fond of.
Given that theirs is a very niche use case, I don't think anybody's gonna make a trackball to suit them that also has a scroll wheel, but I guess if somebody was motivated enough, there's an opportunity for some sort of ESP-based open source hardware.
Right, but ultimately their complaint is that a game has actions bound to a scroll wheel and they could simply rebind those actions to something else.
Though the complaint does become legitimate if they are playing one of the handful of poor PC ports out there that lacks key remapping (cough*transformerswarforcybertron*cough)
I've always been curious about this. Do they play FPS games by chance? If so, how's their aim compared to a traditional mouse? I've always had this intuition that it would be easier to aim with a trackball, but I've never gotten one to see for myself.
Came here to say that
i find these WAY more painful to use than a normal mouse, it puts all my weight on that hemispherical bit in the wrist and the angle is just slightly off being the neutral position for my hand so it's instead constantly putting stress on the arm..
i want one that's just slightly more tilted than a normal mouse.
My Logitech MX Master 2 has a decent amount of angle without being vertical, maybe something like that is what you're looking for?
MX Master is my favorite mouse line by far. Amazing scroll wheel, side scroll wheel, good angle and buttons, and can swap between 3 computers.
I have my Master 3 set up for my work pc, my Surface, and my editing computer.
that does look good!
You could also use one of those silicone mouse pads.
They're also SOOOO HEAVY, though maybe I've been spoiled by my G Pro Superlight.
I use this at work because I have a standing desk and was getting wrist pains. Forcing my hand to tilt also forces
It's a shit mouse on purpose.
You uh, want to finish that middle sentence?
big vertical mouse got them before they could finish
Those are called rats.
Vertical mouse is a rat?. I am confused
trackball gang trackball gang trackball gang
Touchpad keyboard gang.
If there were a modern version of this with a multi-touch trackpad I might actually consider this.
I just bought a trackball but it has intolerable sticktion.
Trackball gang is a lie!
Have you tried cleaning it? If that doesn't fix it then that sucks, I have a gameball and it's smooth as ice.
Yeah sure. Elecom Deft, I got mislead by a review. After getting it I searched some more, and apparently the ball is too soft and the point bearing can be replaced to be zirconium instead of ruby. But I suspect I'm just more sensitive to sticktion. From what I've read there are "ball transfer unit" that completely eliminate sticktion. They are a bit louder and not quite as smooth, but afaik there is no trackball using it.
So my guess is that people that use trackballs simply don't really experience discomfort, and probably don't really feel pain either :D So back to the mouse pit with me!
I have an Orbit Fusion for the couch. I looked at the Elecoms, but I just really like the scrollring. In my perfect world there'd be a god-damned three-button orbit with scrollring, but in the meantime remapping the Fusion's "Forward" button lets me use it with similar ergonomics. I notice the stiction, but it's a very minor little aspect of using the trackball, and it's not distracting enough for me to feel like I need to replace the bearings. I did do the "rub some nose oil on it" thing and that helped some.
There are a few DIY designs floating around that use BTUs, and some have certainly made their way into ergo keyboards, but I don't know of a commercial product that uses them.
Yeah I read this https://www.gbryant.co.uk/posts/2021-02-15_ploopy-trackball/post.html Once I have a 3D printer I'll try building one. First without electronics to see if I like the haptic. Then I could add more buttons to that too or combine it with a 3D printed case for an ergo split keyboard.
I feel like any sticktion at all would be distracting me and ruining any chance to make very precise movements. So I don't want to buy any more trackballs for now.
I think Elecoms are prone to sticktion. I have an Elecom Huge and I had to replace the bearings to make it smoother. None of my other trackballs have that much sticktion, my Kensington Slimblade in particular is buttery smooth.
Brand new trackballs can sometimes have some stick-slip. But they "wear in before they wear out" with use. Popping the ball out and cleaning it with warm soapy water and a rinse helps a lot. And whenever the ball feels sticky a wash is in order.
My current Logi tech ball mouse had a tiny defect in the ball that a minute's worth of 1000 grit wet/dry sandpaper fixed. It's now rolls like it's running on air bearings.
You just have a bad trackball. My Kensington Expert glides smooth.
When a mouse and a joystick love each other very much, this is the end result.
Even better, join the trackball gang
Tried so hard, couldn't do it, used them exclusively for weeks and it just always felt awkward.
Trackballs are the most cultured choice, although I wish I could buy one that's huge like the one on that golf game that used to be in arcades.
Elecom Huge
That looks like a regular trackball in a large base. I looked it up and the Elecom huge is a smaller ball than a regular Kensington. (54 vs 55mm).
2 weeks trackball. never looking back.
looking for a work trackball now.
I requested a track ball at work, turns out, they had like 20 of them in some storage room that no one wanted to use. Shortly after I began using a track ball, others also wanted to try it out. Basically my entire department now uses trackballs at work lol
This is the way.
Trackball gang, how do you like trackballs for 3D CAD? Are there ones that can interpret three distinct axes of rotation or is everything just using two?
I have never done anything related to CAD, so I have no idea.
Okay, now what?
Vertical keyboard
I hate how mechanical keyboards set ergonomics back 30 years.
Instead of starting with the great ergonomic layouts of MS Natural etc and adding superior switches, mechanical keyboard manufacturers went back to the 1970's with super flat designs.
Any suggestions for a good quality vertical? The one the office purchased for me feels cheap and the time-to-sleep is too short(mouse doesn't wake on motion).
The two I've used are the one in the image (it's from Anker, I forget the model) and Logitech's MX Vertical (they have a second, smaller version if the original is too big). I've been maining the Vertical the past 4 years for work and personal use.
Both have pros and cons:
Anker is cheaper. ~$35 vs ~$80. Also has a built in slot to put the receiver in when not in use.
It curves with your hand more than the Vertical.
Anker uses easily replaceable AAA batteries. Usually lasted me about 3 months before I needed to swap them. I only used it for work though.
The Vertical can connect to 3 different devices (1 dongle, 2 Bluetooth) whereas Anker is limited to whatever the dongle is connected to.
The Vertical is made of better feeling materials; like a rubber for extra grip vs hard plastic with the Anker.
There's a USB C port to charge its (not easily replaceable) battery.
Edit: Vertical won't go to "sleep" like the Anker will. If the Anker isn't touched for X minutes, it will go to sleep and you'll have to click one of the switches to wake it. Otherwise moving it won't move the cursor. Not that huge of an issue, but definitely annoying if you don't know what's going on.
However, there is a design flaw with the Vertical. Logitech run their wireless mice at very low voltage and current to save on battery. That's how they get a 240 mAh battery to last for around a month of heavy use.
The problem with this is you need to use particular switches, otherwise corrosion starts to build up on the connectors. This corrosion leads to incomplete or missed clicks, phantom double clicks, or it's impossible to hold a click.
From what I remember, standard switches are designed for 5V, since that's what wired mice normally run at. But modern wireless mice operate around a tenth of that. Logitech never made the switch (heh) to switches rated for that low voltage. At least not when I bought mine.
My Vertical had that issue. And rather than buy an entirely new mouse, I went in, desoldered the old switches and replaced them with new ones (I think I went with Kale's light blue switches). I did that in summer '22 and haven't had any issues since.
The rubber material is also showing wear and tear where my fingers sit, but that's just cosmetic.
I got the Anker one for my mom holiday '22 and she's been happy with it. It helped the discomfort in her hand.
Both mice improved the stiffness in my right hand, so either one will get the job done. I will also say that there is a bit of an adjustment period. Surprisingly, changing the angle of your hand kind of throws you off and takes some getting used to. Before my office went remote, my coworkers would avoid using it because it wasn't easy for them to switch to for just a short period of time.
Hopefully this info is helpful. I can try answering any questions you have on them, but those are the only two I have experience in.
Edit 2: Phrasing
Is it possible to use any of the two wired? Or are there better wired alternatives?
The Anker doesn't have a port to use wired. But you can with the Logitech. You can also use it while it's charging.
Actually the Anker comes in wired predominantly; I usually find them while looking for the other.
The wired version of the Anker is better than the wireless, imo. I've had the wired version at work for three years now and have been happy with it - comfy, pretty light, cord is a good length. My coworker has the wireless and when I use it I find it heavier and less responsive.
Wow that is a major screw up. Probably part of the planned obsolescence though.
It's very possible. It happened to a previous Logitech mouse of mine, which led to me using a Razer for the next 6 years. And with how much work it was to take this apart, I could see them wanting me to just buy a new $80-100 mouse every two years.
I went down a rabbit hole to find this info out. People dug deep trying to find what was going on with the switches.
So basically you're saying that my beloved MX Vertical will 100% fail pretty soon? I freaking love this mouse, it's so comfortable and elegant and a joy to use :(
It's possible. There's also a chance Logitech started using the right switches by the time you bought yours. Once you start getting the weird clicking behavior, that's a sign the switches are on their way out.
But if you're willing to put in the work, you can replace the switches yourself. iFixit has instructions on how to replace the switches. I followed that and I was able to successfully swap mine.
Good to know, I'll look out for those signs then, thanks a lot!
Praise iFixit. Soldering required does mean that I'll have to learn that first though. Do you have, by any chance, a recommendation for a sort of "intro to soldering" type of video/content that I can start with?
Sadly, I don't. I pretty much looked online for a recommended temp for my soldering iron, picked a tip that seemed appropriate, and slowly desoldered it.
Pro tips: get a tool to hold the circuit board for you. I didn't have one when I did it and it was a pain the ass. And actually dangerous because you have your fingers working near a very hot piece of metal.
Also the switches are connected by 3 rather spaced solder points. You'll have to balance heating all the solder points to keep it soft, and then use a pair of tweezers to slowly wiggle the switch out.
Putting the new switch in is easier. Just need to make sure you orient it correctly and make sure it isn't misaligned. Or else it might not click right. Thankfully it's not hard to line up.
Got it, thanks! Very specific advice, I feel a bit more secure now and I'll save this for when I have to replace the switches, that being hopefully never :P.
I use the Logitech MX Vertical. https://a.co/d/9eDjEZ8
Took a little getting used to, but the wrist pain is gone and the mouse is reliable.
I have a couple of these and like them: https://www.amazon.com/J-Tech-Digital-V628-Adjustable-Sensitivity/dp/B0759V6FZC
I've tried so many vertical mice, but for some reason this one worked out the best for me. It kind of feels cheap compared to others, but I've had it for a number of years and I haven't found anything that can top it. It's worth trying out if anyone is on the fence since it is priced under $20.
I think it's because it's an unapologetic vertical mouse. Most others are just slanted mice. Note that the furst couple days might be slow because you have to adjust to using your arm that way. I got this one in uni because my wrist just didn't like being flat, and I used computers a lot. This one matches my resting position really well, and the wrist rest means I'm not sliding the side of my hand all over the desk.
I thought you reached into my brain and posted this for me. 😂 I have exactly the same problem.
https://sandberg.world/en-us/product/wireless-vertical-mouse-pro
I use this one, mostly because it was pretty cheap, is wireless and has a rechargeable battery.
I would splurge a little more now that I like using a vertical one, but I was afraid of spending a lot just to shelve it for eternity like I did with some other devices...
I tried and ironically my wrists didn't like it at all.
I had a chat about switching to a vertical mouse, with the Ergonomist (desk ergonomics guy) at my workplace. I short, he told me that if a regular mouse doesn't cause issues, it's not a good idea to switch. As your wrist and hand will have to adjust to different kinds of loads and movements which can start causing issues.
I've never tried it but the idea of constantly holding something just sounds like hell for the carpals.
You don't hold them any more than a horizontal mouse
Wouldn't you thumb it against your palm so that your fingers are always aligned with the buttons, such is the case with laying your hand atop a regular mouse?
Well... I know there's actually three ways to hold a traditional mouse, I saw a video about it once. Which was surprising to me, but mostly because I have big hands and I can only hold a mouse one way.
But for me when I'm holding a horizontal mouse the mouse is "grasped" by my hand as a whole, and I'd say my pinky and thumb are in a way holding the mouse.
With a vertical mouse it's much the same where my whole hand is grasping. I'm not holding it any more with my thumb because the thumb rests on the body of the mouse. In fact as I think about it and type this out I think I have to hold a horizontal mouse more than a vertical, but again it might just be related to hand size.
I use both. Horizontal for gaming so I can have more than two thumb buttons. Vertical for work as it does give my wrist and forearm a "rest."
Edit: realized I didn't necessarily answer your question. For me with the vertical mouse the buttons are just there where they need to be. And I guess clicking is a form of holding...
The G502 has a thumbplatform, so that's where my thumb goes. My pinky can't touch the mouse cause my ring finger is in the way. But its slightly tilted, so its not exactly a horizontal mouse. Not nearly as vertical as this though. I just move it via the top of my palm. A vertical mouse seems like it would be uncomfortable in my right hand but fine with my left (maybe related to mixed handedness, maybe related to the different ways my wrists healed after breaking).
You just lay your hand on it. After a few minutes it settles as a natural resting position. And let me tell you, it's sooooo much better than resting your hand on a traditional mouse. Best thing: these cheap vertical mice are not inherently worse than, say, a Logitech MX vertical. Just give it a try for 20 bucks.
Well random cheap mice could die after a while (happened to my brother), or need battery replacements often (happens to a colleague). Logi MX vertical has the benefit that you can charge it, and it lasts quite a long time before you need to recharge it.
Though honestly I'd never spend €100+ on a mouse. My company offered money to buy office things, I didn't need anything so I took the mx vertical haha.
The more somebody tries to sell me something, the more apprehensive I am to it.
But wait, there's more! For only 85 easy payments of $69.69 you can get 420 more copies of hurdurhurdur weekly!
:P
I was experiencing some wrist pain at work so I had my employer buy me one. If you have real ergonomics concerns, you can always try that route.
Just like a "normal" mouse you don't hold it as much as you push it around. But we (at least, me and the people I've discussed this with) tend to actually "hold" normal mouses more because they are rarely very ergonomic and you can't really move them in a satisfactory manner without gripping them at least a little.
Have you ever tried one of the MX masters? I used to have wrist problems but my master 3 just fits so well (the buttons are slightly angled, not as extremely as these vertical mice but like 20°) and its big enough to be able to comfortably rest my entire hand on it...
I briefly tried one, it's probably my favorite Logitech mouse so far. I actually considered buying one when I had to change my mouse but I'm a sucker for those 12 buttons panels the razer nagas have
This makes sense. I LOVE my Logitech G502, but even though it seems "palmy" and my hands aren't even that big, I end up claw-grabbing the thing really hard!
Yeah I had that one at work for a while and had the same problem ! Out of frustration I ended up trying out an ergonomic mouse just like in the OP that was lying around, and never came back
I'm not the only one who sees a shark with its jaws opened, right?
Yup! But is the top eyes or nostrils? Wait.. Edit. Had to check, yes sharks have nostrils 🙃
so i love my mx master and i use the freewheeling scroll wheel all the time. the mx vertical mouse has a standard scroll wheel :p
Logi lift hás freewheeling too
I had constant wrist pain and switched to evoluent vertical mouse in like 2015 and haven’t had pain since. And it’s an added layer of security
I had the exact same scenario! Just a few years before your issue, I fell and landed on my right hand, straining my wrist. It wasn't broken, but it was really sore and months later it still hurt just as badly, so I went to a doctor. He said the tendons and the sheath they go through were likely inflamed, and all my mousing (both work and home) was probably keeping it inflamed. I switched to the evoluent at work and a Logitech thumb ball at home, and two weeks later I was fine.
Move the wheel under the thumb. Until then it's anything but ergonomic.
If I have to move my wrist,l it's a deal breaker
Knock over your mouse countless times while moving your arm around.
Still worth it, though.
I can hear this comment °-°
keyboard, with touchpad fallback when it's absolutely necessary gang
Mmmm. Maybe but what about scrolling. I bet you cant beat my scrollinh accuracy or speed with a keyboard.
PgUp/PgDown when easily possible to use (the webpage/program isn't crap etc) is very quick. If that doesn't work, i can probably still outscroll or at least match you with two thumb scroll on the touchpad.
What I'm genuinely not sure about is how healthy touchpaddin' is on the wrist... but i've been doing it for about 25 years without major issues so i guess i at last for used to it.
Depends what kind of wheel they're rollin'. Some, a single flick of the finger is enough to keep it rolling high-speed for a while. Even if you could keep up with that, it would be miserable unless you had momentum settings set to impractical levels.
Oh yes forgot about those fancy bois. Then i'll just go with the pgup/pgdn argument :)
Yes! The pictured one is a good one too. But currently using the Logitech MX Vertical.
Trackpoint gang!
Trackpoints are great, they're my second choice when I can't use a trackball for some reason. Unfortunately, it's basically impossible to design a split keyboard with a trackpoint.
Been uing them for a long time. But it is really hard to find a good one under 40/50€. Normal mouses have a lot of the goodones in 30€.
Anker makes a decent one, which can be bought for $20 or a bit less. Should be said it is the only vertical mouse I've used, but it works as a mouse and I haven't had shoulder tension/aches since I started using it.
Honestly, I was, indeed, refering to that one. I dind't know anker was doing one, but it is the same generic that many brands are selling. It's optical and not laser, therefore precision is mediocre and the battery doesn't last too long like the laser ones. Also the construction materials feel pretty bad. I mean, it's what could you expect from a cheap mouse. But again, the normal mouses have much better mouses and with laser sensors for similar prices.
How do you grasp it? Do you hold it like a massive cock? A gearstick? A pencil?
it's like gripping the pistol-style grip on a rifle. benefit: you'll use your elbow and arm muscles more in moving it around, placing less stress on the wrist muscles. It's a much more natural grip.
More like a firearm. Not that I have handled many firearms.
I really wish, they would release a gaming oriented vertical mouse. High DPI sensor, good clicker switches, etc. Right now stuck with my Logitech lift that tops out at 4000 dpi and has mushy switches.
Vertical gaming mice are good in theory, but they're bad for aim. Since you're clicking vertically, you actually very slightly move your mouse with each click. It throws off your aim :/
That and I claw grip too hard to ever get comfortable with them. But to each their own.
I saw one an am curious, does it work well with fps games?
Depends what you expect. On a pro tournament level, nobody will use a vertical mouse. Usually they are a little bit heavier than regular mouses, plus they have a slightly higher center of gravity. This makes them a little bit more "wobbly" during ultra fast movements.
However, for regular playing, they work just fine. I don't play on pro level, but okay competitive shooters almost daily, and I haven't noticed any real disadvantage. And it helped my wrists enormously, because I'm a full time office worker as well. I decided a couple years ago that the small theoretical disadvantage is not worth the risk of RSI and have been using the cheap CSL/Anker/whatever vertical mouses since. Only very recently I boughta second, regular mouse with more thumb buttons, useful for some sim games I play. I now tend to switch fairly randomly between the two, which probably is even better for hand and wrist.
Additional info: getting used to a vertical mouse takes much less time than most people expect. Yes, it's weird at first, but start working or gaming and you'll stop noticing the different posture very quickly.
Recently there is actually a mild push for gaming vertical mice so that gap might shorten over time. A friend of mine does Valorant semi-pro and he uses a vertical mouse as well.
I wouldn't be opposed to a gaming mouse with extra buttons. Back in college a gf gave me a Razer mouse with a full numpad where the thumb sits. Was absolutely amazing for games with commands tied to those. Having something like that as a vertical mouse would be perfect. The only problem I see is when I click, I instinctively press my thumb into the mouse for stability. I trained that out of myself for the most part, but that could cause me to accidentally press a button when I didn't want to. So they'll have to be mindful of that when designing one.
I can't tell any difference with my aim using a vertical mouse, so I wouldn't stress it.
If anything, it adds a bit of realism cause you hold the mouse at a more similar angle as holding a gun. IMO it's worth it for the strain relief alone.
Yeah, I'm thinking of trying a not so expensive ones first just to get a feel if I'll like it.
My overall accuracy seemed to be just a little bit better at first, but if you're like me, struggling with severe impulse control and will play games for 10 hours straight some days, it's actually so much better. Your wrist doesn't get nearly as tired and you can make some crazy flick shots really consistently
You may need to adjust your sensitivity as your wrist is now moving at a different angle
I moved back to a standard mouse because I like side buttons and I couldn't find any good vertical mice with more the two (at the time, that may not be true anymore)
I saw a some versions with 2 more buttons. They're either above or below the length of the thumb.
My mouse has a total of 12 programmable buttons across the whole thing.
Not in my experience. It's novel for work but once I had it for awhile I went back to another mouse. I don't think they are as useful as others say. Seems more like a preference.
I haven't tried a lot of those, but it would take a lot of practice to achieve similar accuracy.
I use a split keyboard and trackball at work, and I thoroughly enjoy the bafflement of my coworkers when they try to use my computer.
As a CAD industrial drafter, I approve.
For ergonomics, it's a great office mouse. But just a heads up you're clicking horizontally so you slightly move the cursor every time you click. Kinda bad for gaming.
It's really bad for gaming since the rotation of the wrist restricts the range of motion compared to palm grip standard mouse, never mind claw grip.
How far have you sent your vertical mouse flying off the desk?
I know you've done it. Right after you typed that thing and went to click that button.
Life is hard for vertical mice.
I have never done that, actually. My wife, on the other hand...
lol I got the exact mouse in the post right next to me. it was the cheapest vertical mouse I could find and the scroll wheel makes awful skreeching noises. Works perfectly though and the wrist pain is long gone
same. The battery was shit though, so I replaced it with a larger one
touchpad gang (i cant be bothered spending money)
trackball
Mice rise up
I have a MX Vertical at work and Logi Ergos (both the 570 and a MX Ergo) at home, they are great. Love the battery life of the MX Ergo, I sometimes forget I even have to charge the damn thing. However I did have to change the main buttons in the MX Ergo, the switch were failing and it ended up double clicking
Shame about the polling rate on the vertical, looks very jagged on 144hz+ monitors
Mind if I ask, Where did you shop for the switches
I ended buying Kailh Teal switches on AliExpress. But I also saw Alps switches like the ones Logi uses on eBay
Yay! There are dozens of us! A cheap trackball is one of the best things I have ever bought. No pain, and it is really accurate.
I did have a regular mouse in my pc too so that other people could use my pc without complaining, but donated it to one of the new people at work. But happy, nice mouse makes the day better.
I tried a number of those and couldn't get used to it. I'd get soreness and cramps after the same amount of time but in different locations mostly around the thumb where the skin stretches when you do pistol hands.
In the most recent past I'd been using the elecom huge trackball but it's not without it's issues either. I don't actually recommend elecom they have quality control issues and the deft has the most infuriating mouse wheel. Thumb trackball gave me similar soreness to vertical mouse, and index finger trackball the back of my hand where the fingers attach.
Now I'm using just the steam deck and a Thinkpad laptop lately and those also introduce their own flavour of hand strain after a while.
Apart from the high cost of the hobby, we have reached an era of peak keyboard greatness, but we don't seem have many immediately apparent custom mouse options. Not that I would have any idea what wouldn't hurt me physically. Maybe one of the diy keyboards with a built in trackball.
I tried one of these and I hated it.
Same. I use CAD all day & really wanted to like it.
My two big issues was that gravity was working against my fingers to keep them on the buttons, and also the side of my palm would rub along the surface if the desk as I used it. I had to hold my hand up and in position the whole time instead of just laying it on there like a normal mouse, got hand cramps after one day of using it. Thankfully I was just borrowing it from a coworker who also hated it so I had no investment lol.
I had a thumb trackball for years, miss it tbh.
Edit I've got one in my Amazon basket now.
Edit 2 it's been binned from the basket after reading reviews and now I have a Logitech Ergo coming today
Thumb ball master race chuckles with amusement as they look down upon this post from Olympus.
Or use as a buttplug with the same results.
Chess gang shit
I've always wanted one of these. I found one made by Anker for 25 USD. Thank you reminding me
Honestly I have it and it changed everything for me. Took a bit to get used to (maybe a couple days) but it's so worth it.
Downside is that the receiver range isn't as far as I'd like it to be.
It works great, but can eat batteries
I tried it and I got wrist pain that I never had from the horizontal mouse
I guess my body is completely set? (been using a normal mouse for many, many hours since I was 10yo)
If you suffer from wrist or elbow pain from using a regular mouse you’re best off doing strength exercises and proper stretching for those muscle groups. I find that to be more effective than using one of these vertical mice as your issue is likely from muscle overuse. Vertical mice can help but if you’re on your computer all day you’re bound to still have the same issue from overuse of your muscles.
Just my experience tho everyone is different.
That's not how an RSI works. It's not muscle issues at all, it's the tendons that get inflamed from over use and that inflammation pushes against the tendon cords that bind them and that's what causes the pain.
Muscle exercises don't do anything to help.
It is a muscle issue. The reason your tendons are over stressed is because the muscles supporting them are also over used.
This is why when you go to the doctor for RSI the most common treatment is rest AND muscle exercises.
Strong muscles gives your tendons a break.
I have a stationary mouse that's kinda like that.
I will buy it but this type of mouse is so expensive for me :(
How expensive is it? I bought one for like $30 CAD
Really?? Last time I checked it was around $100. Then, I will think about it. Thanks
They aren't that expensive. There are a lot of good options around $20-$30, even for gaming.
I bought a wireless cheap brand one from Officeworks in Australia for $20AUD to see if I liked the form factor.
I did so I ultimately went and bought my Logitech Lift which has been great for study and general use, although I still go for my traditional gaming mouse over it if I'm gaming.
Weird that this subject popped up. I was looking into this yesterday. As for cost I found a wired model for 13 bucks Canadian.
At that point, why not just use a joystick? I guess this would be faster; I assume you still move it around like a mouse you're just holding it like a joystick.
I wonder how good IntelliJ's support for joystick is.
Rotating your wrist upward just opens up your arm/shoulder/wrist into their correct positions.
Wrist-aiming/clicking is bad for you long term, just learn how to use your arm to move the mouse around on a lower sensitivity :)
What's bad for you is incorrect posture and resting your wrist on the desk or a pad while actively using your wrist. If you sit at the right distance and height, you shouldn't be bending your wrist up or down at all.
Source: Have carpal tunnel and was given guides on proper posture and peripheral use by my doctor.
Hard for those of us who have different-than-expected-proportions. I have a custom built desk at home so it's not a problem, but my work desk is just too high. Even at its highest, my chair doesn't raise me up enough to allow me to sit ergonomically since I have a short torso. The vertical mouse helps make up for it, though.
I'm tall so most things are too short. If your work has an ergo specialist, however, you could possibly request a higher chair or lower desk. I've only had two jobs that were cool like that, tho.