Can someone explain to me what makes Taylor Swift so popular?

Varyk@sh.itjust.works to Ask Lemmy@lemmy.world – 265 points –

I don't get it. Her music is sometimes catchy but otherwise unremarkable, from the songs I've heard. How does she break all these records and accumulate so much fame and wealth?

She's pretty, but a lot of singer songwriters are, especially those with makeup and costume people, a support staff.

Is there something else to her that people like?

I'm confused about what makes her so apparently unique or phenomenal.

Update: there are so many things that make swift unique or phenomenal.

I've received tons of great answers from people that have helped me understand, like piecing together a jigsaw puzzle, many factors that makes swift different and consequently more successful than her peers.

Clever lyrics, top-tier production, sharing autobiographical and emotional points in her life very directly, apparent honesty with few or no public blemishes, creating a community of fans through Easter eggs and house parties and unconventional, but always personal methods, an early start supported by wealthy parents, she keeps winning against abusers, and her music itself is popular and fun.

Those are just a few of the puzzle pieces contributed here, and a dive into this post is a pretty good explanation of many of the factors that must be contributing to her phenomenal success and recognition, that set her apart from other pop stars, even pop stars who were phenoms in their own right.

This is a very educational post, thank you to everyone who has contributed.

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I wanted to chime in, since I'm in the unique situation of not being a "Swiftie" but still having an above-average knowledge of Taylor Swift due to being married to a Swiftie.

For starters, her songs are very relatable for women. Especially in women around her age, she was routinely writing songs that spoke to the emotions during each periods of their lives. My wife, for example, was in middle/high school when Taylor was releasing her romantic country songs, and met me right around when Taylor released Lover. This is all because Taylor is extremely autobiographical with her lyrics and was writing about what she was experiencing at the time. She wrote lovesongs in Speak Now because she was in high school and early college when she produced the album. She wrote Lover because she had met a man who, at the time, she perceived to be a man she could spend the rest of her life with. Since Red, very few of her songs are about hypothetical situations. Almost all of them are about her real experiences as a person and as a woman, with the exception of folklore and Evermore, and that speaks to women in a very strong way. Her lyrics and reasons behinds songs are deep, much deeper than most give her credit for.

Additionally, she is extremely good at marketing. Many of her songs and albums have Easter eggs in them that only true fans will be able to find. She also drops a lot of cryptic hints, which her fans love to dissect and interpret to try and predict major releases or announcements. It's just good fun for them, and it increases the hype significantly. Also, her concerts are not just live music, they're a whole show. The Eras concert is 3 hours long, and she is singing and running the entire time. She rarely lip-syncs - I say rarely because I've heard claims that she does but I have never seen it - and gives it her all every single concert. Her band and many of her dancers and support staff have been with her for a decade or more now, and they have continued to routinely put on shows to the best of their abilities without fail.

Finally, she is, most Swifties believe, a genuinely good person. The worst thing I've ever heard of her doing is loaning her private jet out to her friends and families which caused her to break the news because her jet was causing a lot of emissions. Beyond that, she seems to be a grounded woman who genuinely loves her fans and the people around her.

If you take nothing else away from this post, this is the most important fact: She is relatable to women. She sings about her lived experiences, many of which are relatable to her fans.

Thanks, I really appreciate your perspective.

A lot of what you said rings true and certainly fits in puzzle piece-wise with everything else

My wife has just informed me of the latest Easter egg, to further explain the marketing prowess and give an example.

She has changed her profile picture to black and white, rather than full color. While trivial to non-Swift fans, this is a red alert to her die-hards. I haven't heard many of the theories yet (my wife often distills them down to the most reasonable for me, thankfully), but her favorite so far is that it is signaling her intent to release the "Taylor's version" (re-recording) of her album Reputation, which is one of her most popular albums and has a black and white theming. This is the kind of puzzles and theory crafting thst many Swift fans find so enthralling

Ha, okay, so there's a whole puzzle culture to everything she presents. Yes, that would attract a lot of people as well. Thanks

Think of a dish made by a world class chef, that food is probably exquisitely crafted using unique and fresh ingredients. There probably aren't that many people out there who truly appreciate it, and probably a lot who just think it's weird.

Now think of pizza. It's relatively cheap and broadly appealing. It wouldn't be put in the same class as the food prepared by the chef, but a lot more of it gets consumed.

Taylor Swift is talented, pretty, affable, has a superior work ethic, and makes music that's catchy and easily digestible. Like pizza, her music appeals to the broadest group of people.

I like this explanation, but I feel like there are plenty of other artists who fit into that category.

Is it just random that they had to pick one brand of pizza to go crazy over do you think?

The pizza has been carefully crafted by teams of experts to appeal to the largest audience.

As someone who couldn't name a single Swift song up until a couple of months ago — From what I read she writes the vast majority of her songs, which is exceptionally rare for pop stars; especially from such a young age... The songs may be simplistic and formulaic, but the lyrics are decent for the age they were written at, and the work ethic and genre jumping is impressive. The most admirable thing about her is how she's screwing venture capitalists by re-recording all the songs she wrote. I hope she starts redistributing all that wealth she's extracting.

Ok just don't forget she came from money and had opportunities:

She traveled there with her mother at age eleven to visit record labels

That definitely helps. I think it's interesting that access to uncommon opportunities is generally presented as a negative thing in Taylor Swift's case but ignored for Michael Jackson or even contemporaries like Beyonce.

Dunno any of her new stuff, but I'd be surprised if you've never heard any of the following as they were very overplayed, even though they are good:

Teardrops from my guitar

Love story

Our song

Blank space

You belong with me

She is a damn fine businesswoman. She was able to use social media to have a relationship with her followers and build a large audience. That's one of the main reasons she became famous.

Also, there have been a couple of situations that benefited her fame, such as the Kanye incident

"Relationship"... More like getting liked because she is pretty.

Uh oh, someone is upset because a beautiful woman is also good at other things.

You are right - beautiful woman are always good at things. Can't criticize them because that's just out of bounds. :)

Luck and timing are big factors. There are many talented artists out there that work hard and make the kind of music that (in theory) should appeal to a large audience but never make it. Either at all or not to the level of Taylor Swift. If you make the right music at the right time, your chances increase but you still need luck.

Edit: what I've heard of Taylor is that she's very good in making the right music at the right time. The songs fit the trends in music. But I've never listened much to her, so I don't know for sure if its correct

Thanks, someone else compared her to other pop stars like Michael Jackson and Madonna, and all of those people were at the forefront of their particular movement.

I feel like Taylor Swift is just in the middle of all the other pop stars.

Appreciate it, I'm going to try and look into it from that perspective, maybe I just don't understand the music world at all. I definitely don't.

I just remembered a big factor as to why artists such as Madonna have a long career: they managed to appeal to the queer crowd, who tend to be fiercely dedicated to anyone who stands up for them.

Don’t forget the money and connections. IIRC her father literally bought(?) or created(?) a label to sign her. There a lot more talented artists out there but she had the money and connections that gave her a very big headstart. Talent can only get you so far in the industry. It’s luck/timing and money/connections that allow you to break through.

My brother is a swiftie and seems to think that her talent is above and beyond a standard artists talent. One thing that is praised is how much range she has covered across her albums.

I'm personally not a fan, and to me she seems overrated, but I also have to recognize the mass following and legitimate consistency in the music quality. She's not like a Katy Perry recycling the same tune.

So I think she's like a really nice pizza, appealing but always good quality, always fresh.

A couple people have mentioned her range, but they also only mention her relationship and breakup songs. What else does she sing about that gives her range?

When people talk about her range they are usually talking about musical styles, she has a lot of different sounds. Not all of her songs are about relationships, but probably most of them, they are not all about breakups though. That isn't too uncommon though, probably one of the most common things people sing about.

Totally agree, relationships breakups probably cover a large percentage of pop music anyway.

Does she have a lot of different sounds just in pop music or does she also delve into completely different genres?

Probably not like Andre 3000 going out and making an ambient album, but there are a lot of differences stylistically. For example her pandemic albums Folklore and Evermore are a lot less traditional pop, and can be more folk sounding. Doing some songs with Bon Iver helped that too.

I think a lot of times people associate her with bubblegum pop from a lot of the singles that came out maybe ten years ago and were heavily played on the radio but that hasn't been the sound for a while.

She might not recycle the same tune, but it kinda seems like she recycles the same themes verbatim. I'd say she's closer to Papa John's than a good quality pizza shop. Her music is probably good, but I doubt that it's usually great.

You have to explore all her albums in order to really form that opinion. People who like that kind of music will do so, and likely decide that she is phenomenal.

But then folks like you and me will not want to take time to ingest all that music that doesn't appeal to us, so we have to speculate based off what we get exposed to which is generally her pop songs on the radio and such. But we aren't really getting the full Taylor Swift. So it's like we're judging a sample of her stuff (which sounds like a lot of other pop cuz all pop sounds basically the same) and oversimplify what she offers to music.

I'm completely speculating... Like I said we'd have to dive into all those albums and listen to really form a meaningful opinion.

That's a fair opinion. I usually don't listen to albums, even for creators I like, so it didn't really click that her most famous works might not be why people like her.

That being said, there were a few (probably cherrypicked) clips of her concerts where she said something "inspirational" (or quirky?), and her fans go absolutely insane, and to me it just sounds like the most mundane stuff you could say. So until I listen to her stuff I'll keep my existing impression.

She's smart and not lazy. A lot of people get fame and money and massively shift their focus. Longevity is probably the toughest part, not going crazy, and remaining relatable to young people while simultaneously having millions of dollars.

And are there not plenty of other popular artists?

There are, and none with so many awards or the same kind of popularity.

Gordon Ramsay isn't the best chef on the world, still he has the most restaurants by a big margin

A ton of people would say Tswift is their ultimate fantasy fuck even though she isn't the hottest girl on the planet (she still could be a model probably, being slim and tall)

Being famous always has a certain pull to it and if you do it right you can leverage being famous to become even more famous

Worlds top athletes are overpaid (at least in team sports) would you rather have the #1 player or a team full of top 100 players... Well the #1 player sells a ton of merch, but almost always the team with more depth is winning games (if the budget is equal)

Top athletes are grossly underpaid. Basketball straight up truncates them. Giannis would make at least double on the open market. Football, the best players make the same as second and third tier players at their position, entirely dependent on when they hit FA.

Yeah…I’m not sure what sports we're talking here. I don’t want to assume an American perspective, so I genuinely don’t know when it comes to soccer, cricket, rugby, etc.

But here Stateside, the best players are often not the most highly paid. Patrick Mahomes - and I understand people can disagree - is not the most highly paid QB. Not for a while. Prior to this season, Travis Kelce had been the top TE in the NFL for a number of years, but his contract hadn’t reflected it for some time.

Even without the salary cap, in a sport like Major League Baseball, one could argue a player like Shohei Otahni is still not being paid what he’s actually worth, despite his record breaking contract. He’s a Hall of Fame pitcher and hitter in one player. The contracts for each of those individually is worth more than what he got.

She's pretty and blond as well... oh, and white.

It's like Britney all over again.

But way way bigger and with way more awards. And records.

Smart, pretty, rich parents in positions to boost her early career, generic songs that young women and girls everywhere can project their own issues onto, blonde and white, early career (and again, blonde pretty and white) made her more popular with the country crowd, tons of luck....

Talent can only get you so far.

Just like pizza, artist go off after a while. (It just takes longer)

Except for all of the artists who don't.

And a lot of the artists who do "go off" don't get 81 awards in a decade and a half.

Those aren't to many. I can't name many though that made good music 2 decades ago and still do. Only the Stones spring to mind. I never even heard of Taylor Swift until last year.

I disagree with this. She’s a pretty amazing song writer, which is really uncommon for pop stars. I can see why someone would think she’s more like pizza if you only listen to the hits, but if you actually sit down and listen to a whole album you’ll find that there aren’t many songs that are just flat-out bad. Actually, one my favorites by her is a B side. You can actually track her progress as a musician from fairly generic country artist to someone who has a really unique and uncomplicated sound. I mean, I get why people go for the “simple = easy”, but that’s simply not the case. It’s really difficult to write a song that is as clean and as well put together as she does and still have it be good. To continue your food metaphor, Taylor would be like sushi; there doesn’t have to be a ton of ingredients to be incredibly delicious.

Then you also have to consider that she’s Gen Z, has been doing this for 18 years, and has managed to stay fairly relevant most of that time. Like she really is the only Gen Z pop star who has managed to stay in the limelight without dropping out of being a complete tool (Justin Bieber).

You also have to consider that for a long time she had a carefully crafted public image as a champion of the LGBTQ+ community. Whether she actually is or isn’t doesn’t really matter (I personally think it’s a lot of rainbow-washing) when you have bops like “You Need to Calm Down”. Or the fact that she features a bunch of trans people in the video she directed for “Lavender Haze”.

She’s a pretty amazing song writer, which is really uncommon for pop stars.

Just because you make pizza, doesn't mean you don't make great pizza. I'm not saying she's out here making $0.99 Mr. P's Pizzas ("fabulous" in their own right).

Then you also have to consider that she’s Gen Z, has been doing this for 18 years, and has managed to stay fairly relevant most of that time.

I've considered it, but it's not true. She may appeal to Gen Z but she was born in '89, making her dead center of being a millennial.

I've never said she's bad, but if you've ever listened to more complex music, her's isn't that. She's great at what she does, and seemingly smart and levelheaded, and that's fantastic. But to say her songs are masterpieces that are like beautifully woven tapestry of lyrics and music, I don't see it. And, in all fairness, if they were, she'd probably have a fan base 95% smaller.

I meant that she’s a Gen Z staple, not that she herself is Gen Z. She is to a lot of Gen Z folks what a Green Day is to older millennials like myself. She’s been around most of my life.

That being said, I do listen to a lot of complex music. I listen to a huge variety of music. Like when people say “I listen to everything”, I actually mean it. I’ve played with bands that range for noise to country to classical to jazz to metal to industrial to electronica. And I will say there are a lot of people, especially in the rock and metal scenes, that seem to think that more is always better. Like bigger, faster, louder, more technical, harder to play…that somehow that makes better music. It doesn’t. Like I can enjoy some Tim Henson, he’s an amazing guitarist. I love me some Buckethead or Les Claypool. But to say that their music is better music because it’s more technically difficult to play is kind of funny.

Let me give you an example. Most people will tell you that “Stairway to Heaven” is a great song. I would agree. The solo at the beginning is iconic. But it’s also not hard to play.

If you want a great example of Taylor Swift that doesn’t make normal play that will help you understand, I would suggest “Snow on the Beach”. Don’t try to pick apart lyrics or music. Relax, and let the vibe of the music roll over you. Once you get the overall vibe, then pick into the music and the lyrics. What Taylor is a master of isn’t amazing lyrics or technical songwriting. She’s a master of a song emoting. Like she sets a mood better than almost any musician I’ve seen. While it’s a more popular song, “Lavender Haze” is another great example of a song that is amazing at describing in music that feeling of being in a new relationship and just not wanting to leave.

How is she an amazing song writer? What song do you think stands out and is amazing?

I feel like this is kind of a trap question. Everything about this entire thread feels that way - I don’t want it to seem as if I’m attacking you here - and it’s a microcosm of why discussion of Swift is so polarizing. For some reason, she, more than any other artist I can call to mind, is discussed in black and white terminology. There’s almost no middle ground. You need to either love her or hate her.

Does she possess the lyrical genius of, like, Leonard Cohen? I mean, I don’t know. I think she’s pretty great, but back in the day I’d have been stoned to death on r/Music for suggesting they were in the same league.

What I will say is I think she’s as honest as Cohen was, and that’s something the best songwriters all have. I think she writes from an extremely authentic place, and I respect the hell out of that. In recent years, I think co-writing with Jack Antonoff has only further unlocked her potential.

Some examples of hers I think are great - You’re On Your Own Kid, Champagne Problems, and My Tears Ricochet.

Her pop stuff has some great lyricism as well, but pop music as a genre is generally under appreciated for its lyrics. Obviously, not in all cases; there’s a shitload of manufactured garbage out there. But most of the 1989 album is borderline - if not outright - excellent in this regard. It didn’t get any serious attention though until that shitbag Ryan Adams covered the whole thing, and got people to hear the lyrics in a different way.

I understand you feel that way. But this thread made me give her a chance, so I listened to a couple of her albums. They were pretty decent. Catchy music, good car music. So I get it, she is pretty good. I guess I wouldn't call her amazing but I can see how others may feel that way.

I haven't looked into her lyrics yet. If she is honest, that sounds great to me.

Thank you. :)

Pretty cool you gave her a chance!

I’m a middle aged guy, and I grew up primarily on a mix of 60s-70s-80s rock that my dad fed me, great folk artists my mom loved, and the music of my own formative years (probably most impactful was the grunge scene and its most famous children).

I don’t identify with much modern music, but she’s someone I’ve always respected for some reason. There are obviously other exceptions as well, she’s just the biggest thing going right now.

The world class chef can only cook for a few at a time. Digital distribution means big voice.

I used to dislike Taylor Swift along with all other contemporary pop stars. Maybe even a little bit more, because she had the audacity to call herself Country: Spitting in the face of personal heroes like Kristofferson, Nelson, and Cash.

Then I stopped being an edgy teenager, Swift released Shake it Off, and I had to recognize it was a fun song to dance to. In an ironic kind of way of course, but nevertheless.

And then, in 2015, Ryan Adams released his cover album of Swift's 1989, playing every single song on the album in a folksy way. I dug it. And with it, I had to appreciate that Taylor Swift is one hell of a songwriter: I loved the songs, I just don't love the sound of pop music all that much. That's personal taste, not everything I dislike is bad.

Then Ryan Adams fell from grace with metoo, so fuck him. At least it triggered Father John Misty to publish (and later remove) his legendary covers of Swift in the style of the Velvet Underground.

Fast forward to 2020, and Taylor Swift dabbles with music I can actually enjoy listening to with her album folklore. Pretty cool. I actually got my expectations up for her next album, evermore, low-key hoping that it would be musically inspired by the Battle of Evermore. Sadly I was wrong, but again, it's a matter of personal preferences.

What matters more is the fact that she's reinventing herself from album to album - she's successful in one formula, and she just ditches it and moves on to something different. And every time she does it, she seems to be even more successful than the last time. Her growth as an artist is astonishing.

Finally, she's just cool. Fuck the labels - she'll just casually re-records her entire discography in order to take back control of her songs. She's caught up in all kinds of stupid celebrity drama, but it tends to be the rest of the industry falling over like toddlers trying to drag her into shit for PR while she acts like the only adult in the room. She also scores points for casually hanging out with Billy Bragg and encouraging people to vote and shit.

Swift was hardly the downfall of country; the amount of autotuned trash from both sexes now is off the charts. I can't make myself listen to a country channel for the rare genuine song because I start to rage at the horrid garbage they play the rest of the time.

It's probably hard to pin it on anyone in particular - the Grand Ole Opry had their heads up their asses long before country music started sucking for real. I guess outlaw country defined itself by not following the rules of the Nashville scene.

I've never been to the US, so the closest thing I came to an American country channel was some cassette recordings my dad made in the 80s and that we kept listening to in the car. Obviously learning about contemporary country music was a shock for me once I started spending too much time online.

I'm fine with pop, there are plenty of pop songs I've liked, and I can recognize how since of her songs are fun, I'm curious why she receives dozens of rewards.

Your point about successful in one formula, and then ditches it and moved on to something different

Do you think that happens with every album, or is there a specific example you're thinking about?

Oh I want to add, it's definitely very cool to re-record your discography.

So I'm not exactly an expert, I just have some friends who are Swifties and I enjoy sometimes hearing people out about what they're interested in over a beer. But I'll give a shot at answering based on my limited knowledge.

I don't think Swift makes a point out of reinventing herself every time. I guess she had her country phase until Red in 2012 (We Are Never Ever Getting Back Together), and perfected pop in 2014 with 1989 and Shake it Off, Blank Space and all that. The following two albums I know nothing about, but Wikipedia lists them as electropop. And then she completely changes her sound in 2020 with folklore, suddenly being more folksy and reaching an audience of middle aged male music reviewers who had previously not shown any interest in her music. Somehow the fans of her older albums loved it as well, so her fan-base only expanded.

Evermore is kind of a continuation of folklore. I find it to be a little bit more poppy at times, but it's not a huge change of direction, and kind of builds on the same universe (low-key and lower-key). Midnights however, which is her final album to date, is again something completely different: A full blown concept album, and musically again a complete change of direction. A Swiftie friend of mine said she had to give it a couple of spins before she got into it, but that it's now one of her favourites. As a prog rock fan, that sounds about right to me for a concept album.

Personally I started listening to Midnights for the first time ever while writing this post, and I gotta say the opening tune Lavender Haze has some fun things going on in it. The music is interesting, the songwriting is original, and she's a talented performer with a likeable persona. I'm not very surprised she receives her awards.

#taylorswift

Okay, that's pretty interesting. I don't believe you that you are not a swifty, not even at all, but I really appreciate your input because I think it touched on a lot of important things.

I also love just listening to people explain their passion to me over a beer, and I've had a couple while this thread has been building, and I'm having a great time trying to understand this phenomenon.

I also want to say that I keep watching or listening to every song that someone has mentioned in the comments so that I can see from their perspective what they're talking about, and I'm more cinema oriented than music oriented, and she is incredibly talented at the"hidden" glances and whoever her producers and editors are on every music video I've seen are just killing it making her appear charming, which cannot be a small part of her appeal.

Okay, I'm going to go listen to this folklore album you're talking about now and trying to figure out what's going on there also.

Appreciated, thanks. So this one's called evermore no wait what f*** Wait folklores the

How do you think she compares to Britney Spears, Madonna, or Beyonce? Like, Taylor Swift has become a pop star. You don't have to love her music to see she has wide appeal. I don't really like Madonna but you listen to a song and you are like "yeah I can see why people have danced to this for thirty years"

Okay, yeah so I think it's the awards that I don't really understand, since she doesn't seem that unique to me compared to Ellis, Madonna or beyoncé, but she has the most awards out of them and far more awards than many other pop"stars", like a pretty crazy amount more.

Swift has 81 awards

Beyonce has 96, 31 of which are BET awards, which I do think is significant in this specific list since obviously Taylor Swift isn't competing in that category.

But then let's get to other pop stars.

Lady Gaga has 35 awards? The f*** like I can sing tons of her songs.

Adele has 40? Adele. Adele? Taylor Swift has twice as many awards as Adele?

Rihanna has 49 including her 19 BET awards

Billy eyelash like I don't know whatever, after that it's all like a dozen awards or a couple dozen each.

Taylor has 81 awards, even without any BET awards?

How does Taylor Swift have twice as many awards as Lady Gaga or other similarly huge artists?

Because they're not similarly huge.

Taylor Swift is dating Travis Kelce, and the fact that she's going to be watching (not performing) the Super Bowl is going to add a huge number of eyeballs. To the biggest event in the country.

Lady Gaga has 35 awards? The f*** like I can sing tons of her songs.

Lady Gaga has also put out five studio albums, Taylor Swift ten.

I think that furthers my point if a casual listener remembers several Lady Gaga songs but very few(one) of an artist who has twice as many albums?

Or a top artist having ~twice as many albums explains having ~twice as my awards as some other top artist.

Madonna has 14 albums, Taylor Swift has 10 albums, but Swift has received almost twice as many awards in her career so far.

I feel like with Madonna or beyoncé, either of them are more unique and have more staying power.

I'm not a big pop head, but I can sing a bunch of their singles and I can't think of a Taylor Swift song except I think the never going to get back together one?

Maybe I'm just perceiving Taylor Swift is more successful and wealthy than all of these other pop stars?

I should probably go look at the numbers to see if the perception she projects is as insanely successful as it seems to me

Why would you think anyone has more staying power than Taylor Swift? At 34 years old she has been in the music industry for 19 years and she's only growing in popularity. She topped the Country charts for 24 weeks with her debut album at age 17.

Sure, we won't be able to compare her to Madonna for another 30 years or so, but I don't exactly see a reason to question her staying power.

Because many other artists created a movement that it seems like Taylor Swift waded into and perpetuated without contributing something significantly new.

I'm interested in your " we won't be able to compare her to Madonna for another 30 years"， are you agreeing that Swift doesn't have the sort of staying power that Madonna or other pop stars have achieved?

If so, why has she received so many more awards than anybody else? So many.

I might not understand what you mean by this comment:

"Sure, we won't be able to compare her to Madonna for another 30 years or so, but I don't exactly see a reason to question her staying power."

I just think it's easy to assess Madonna's staying power because she's still around and somewhat relevant, even though she had her biggest hit 40 years ago. It's not easy to say right now who will be remembered and who will be forgotten in 30 years.

I hear people say that all the time, but Madonna was a pretty radical figure, and so was Michael Jackson and the Beatles, who people keep bringing up?

They were all pioneers of a very clear movement or another, whereas Taylor Swift is just a pop star who sings about relationships and breakups in the middle of a line of pop stars who sing about relationships and breakups?

Well, but I don't fully understand the amount of award she's received because she sings well, when there are other artists who sing as well.

I do think that all of your comments are helping bring me closer to a complete picture though, or at least as complete a picture as we can get so early into her career.

Thanks

In a word: marketing. In two words: relentless marketing.

Her dad owned the record company. They are rich. $$$$

Her dad owned 5% of the record company.

Don't get me wrong, that's an advantage most will never have, it's connections, it's expertise, it's starting ahead of the pack, and most of all to my mind, it's certainty that you won't be wasting your life by focusing on your art, but it's also just not accurate to pretend that's all she has going for her when she was richer than her parents after first album.

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I'm personally not a fan. But I am a fan of her making the right-wing nut jobs apoplectic.

That is 100% my favorite part of her career, besides the f*** you record labels, i'm re-recording my entire catalog, which is pretty cool

She also is helping bring down the Ticketmaster monopoly. That's where she earned my respect.

What has she done, regarding Ticketmaster?

Honestly I don't remember the details, and when I google "taylor swift ticketmaster" I get fairly predictable results. There was some drama about them screwing her over, and her screwing them over in return or somesuch. I do know that ticketmaster has held a significant monopoly on event ticketing for over a decade now though, and has only recently begun to get investigated.

Sorry I can't be more use, I'm not a swiftie and I tend to dislike pop culture in general.

-Very skilled songwriter. I don't necessarily like all her stuff but I legitimately think she's the best songwriter (meaning, composing music and writing lyrics) of her generation. Probably since Bruce Springsteen or Billy Joel.

-Very attractive and a good performer

-Well connected in the music industry let her get an early start/inside track

-obsessed with being popular. I don't mean that in a negative way, but her primary objective with her music is to please as many people as possible. I think the documentary "Miss Americana" on Netflix explains that very well-at one point she straight up says "I just want people to like me" or something like that. That means her music/career has always focused on mass appeal as opposed to making more... limited-appeal music like most artists do at some point in their career

-she's kept a remarkably clean image even through being famous for close to two decades. It's very telling that the worst thing her haters can say about her is "but her plane uses a lot of carbon!" This means parents let kids listen to her, brands love her as a sponsor, nobody boycotts her, etc.

-one last thing, I think people love her songs because they feel like they're true. Her songs have a very intimate, almost confessional quality that a lot of artists strive for buy often comes off as fake.

She's just lately a decent songwriter. For most of her career, her songs were written for her by the heavy hitters behind virtually every top 100 hit. Her producer/mixer/writer Jack Antonoff still does most of the heavy lifting.

I am tired of seeing the sentiment that she's some brilliant songwriter--she really only kind of plays the guitar. The reality is that if anyone is made to be a billionaire, and work with one of the best musical minds of our time (Antonoff), and collaborate with the other top song writers/ghost writers, of course, a decade later, they'll be able to write songs. It was never some innate talent of hers, or else the songs she truly did write early in her career would have been the hits, instead of the mutually agreed upon worst on the album.

By early in her career do you mean when she was like 18? I'm not saying she hasn't had a lot of help. But I disagree with the idea that she's just a figurehead. She is listed as a writer for pretty much all her songs, and you can usually tell a Taylor Swift song just by the sound/lyrics, which isnt something i can say for a lot of pop artists. If it was Antonoff the whole time then Bleachers would be more popular (relative to Swift).

No, she really only started to write with "Lover". Prior to that, it was Antonoff, and prior to that it was a lot of different writers/ghost writers.

I also don't think she's just a figure head. I appreciate everything she's done to get artists paid more, I think she's a good role model for girls/women, etc. But, I do not think she's a talented song writer. She's not a multi-instrumentalist. And, she is a billionaire, hoarding wealth like all the others.

your analysis is correct. the commenter you are replying to is like literally lying and i’m making an effort to point that out because they are getting far too many upvotes for someone whose sources contradict their own statements. check out my other comments if interested lol and have a great day 😊

She is listed as a writer for pretty much all her songs

I don’t know anything about anything in this Taylor Swift conversation but Elvis was listed as a writer on all of his songs but wrote none of them. It was a requirement of his management that if he performed it, he got a writing credit.

The American singer-songwriter Taylor Swift has written or co-written every song in her discography, with the exception of several cover songs and two guest features, alongside some songs released by other artists

Source?

this commenter is lying and the sources they claim to cite contradict their own claims.

Co-writing means nothing at the mega-pop industry level, and starts having little meaning far before that. But, if you are genuinely under the impression that it has meaning, I have a bridge to sell you.

The source for my claims of brilliant songwriters writing her entire early career is visible in Genius for everything pre-Lover.

i am sick and tired of this misogynistic bile. i do not write this comment for your sake commenter, but for the sake of anyone who might be swayed by your bullshit rhetoric.

let’s break this down:

“sHe ReAlLy only PlAys ThE GUitaR” you can’t even get that factoid right. Taylor Swift plays at least four instruments.

“she doesn’t write her songs herself and the ones she does write are mutually agreed to be the worst”—

outright false:

Many critics selected "Dear John" [on which Swift is credited as the sole songwriter] as Speak Now's best song for its production and emotional impact. Such critics include Jon Caramanica in The New York Times (lauding the blues production for expanding beyond Swift's country-music comfort zone),[15] Mikael Wood in Spin (saying it was "epic pop-country poetry"),[17] and Willman in The Hollywood Reporter (underscoring the "chills-inducing climax"). wikipedia

too late for you? Our Song (2006, written solely by Swift) was one of the "Award-Winning Songs" at the 2008 BMI Country Awards, which honors the year's best songwriters.[35] It featured on Rolling Stone's 2019 list of the best female country songs from 2000.[36]

“Jack Antonoff does the heavy lifting” Antonoff is a FUCKING incredible artist and I do not deny that, but who sings the songs with a critically acclaimed voice? who performs the music live to meticulous, hours-long choreography? spoiler: not Antonoff, buddy! you might be shocked to hear it was a woman.

Next time you want to just lie on the internet maybe ar least try to find some supporting evidence instead of making empty assertions like a freshman in high school. Like damn. 🗿

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Not just that, but Republicans hating her so much made her even more popular.

Thanks! Those are all interesting points and I have never heard of that documentary but love documentaries, so I'll definitely be checking that out.

Especially since you're the first person who's mentioned how much she wants to be popular, or how much she is focused on that.

That's very interesting and obviously seems very relevant, thanks.

I think people love her songs because they feel like they’re true

Her very first hit was about being a farmer's daughter.

And Tom Clancy was never a Russian submarine captain or spy

Do people like Tom Clancy novels because "they feel like they're true"?

Sorry if you missed the point, but what I intended to say is that, artists frequently create pieces that they haven't actually experienced.

Your point was completely obvious but Tom Clancy was a very poor choice to illustrate that point. Of course some artists produce works that have an essence of truth despite being fiction; perhaps Taylor Swift is such an artist, but Tom Clancy definitely isn't.

Not sure what song that is off the top of my head, but I didn't mean "true" in the literal sense. More like, people feel like the songs give them a glimpse of the real Taylor swift. That's particularly true of her more recent albums I feel like. For example, "Folklore" is told largely through stories about other (fictional) people, but it feels like a reflection of emotions and experiences she really has been through. It's all very parasocial and I'm not sure how much of it is genuine, but my point is it FEELS genuine.

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The reason is that her dad is quite rich and was a stock broker.

He invested heavily in the label that had his daughter under contract, being able to dictate what the label was focusing on and on top he has thrown another Million on her, to start the journey.

So to sum it up a huge tone of money, contacts and knowledge about how to run a business by her father.

Both of her parents worked in finance and upper middle class, but not "quite rich". He invested in a 3% stake in the label, approximately $120,000. That is big money for most but not ultra rich money. Even today they are worth the low millions.

Contacts, enough money to launch a career, business acumen, hard work, and luck have been most of it.

Never said ultra rich and by any means someone who is able to take over a million out of their pocket to Kickstart anything is rich.

In what world does investing roughly 3x the median yearly income in the US into your child's potential music career not count as "quite rich"?

It is difficult to comprehend how staggering wealth inequality is. Minimum wage earners have more in common with her parents, then her parents did with the truly wealthy. I have always liked Pen's parade (which is about income rather than wealth), but there are other aids. One pixel wealth might work in this context because they provide a marker for median income in the visualization.

Okay, and? Sorry if I have a bit of a snarky tone throughout this comment, but it frankly annoys me when people bring up stuff like this. Yes, richer people exist, and mathematically the Swift family net worth (pre-Taylor's career) was surely closer to a minimum wage family than to Jeff Bezos. I don't expect anyone would suggest Mr. and Ms. Swift to be first at the guillotine if the revolution comes. I don't even begrudge them using their wealth to help their daughter's career. I bet most would do the same if they had the resources. But...

Minimum wage earners have more in common with her parents than her parents did with the truly wealthy.

Being able to invest anything, let alone 120,000$ into something as unsure as a pop music career, is very foreign to me, a minimum wage earner. From my perspective, the Swift family had a heck of a lot more in common with the elite than with my peers. Sure, they didn't have "buy-private-islands-and-tickets-to-space-Musk-Bezos" type money, but they clearly had enough money to never need or even want anything.

Comparing this with minimum wage earners is pretty shortsighted, even if mathematically their finances are closer to minimum wage earners than to the 0.0000001% of ultra wealthy. The leap from "closer in net worth mathematically" to minimum wage earners than the ultra wealth to "have more in common" with minimum wage earners than the ultra wealthy is just plain wrong. The math doesn't represent the reality of these different financial situations. In reality, their lives were much closer to that of the elite than to the poor fucker buying their groceries in quarters at the Dollar Store.

The existence of people who have so much wealth the human mind can't even conceive of it doesn't negate the wealth the Swift family clearly had, and it certainly doesn't mean their economic and social lives are closer to that of minimum wage earners than to the ultra wealthy.

You're not wrong, but that doesn't make you entirely right either. The "crabs in a bucket" mentality comes from attacking people who are doing slightly better than you. It might seem like they significant wealth, but they can still be bankrupted by a chronic medical diagnosis or any other of a million things. I choose to focus on the real issue - the 0.0001% and not people making 4 or 5 times the median income.

be bankrupted by a chronic medical diagnosis

That's where my mind went too

You have a point that there's a huge difference in the life of a minimum wage family and a family able to invest 6 figures. Context matters though and I think the point was that they didn't have an overwhelming amount that can force success; we're talking about a financial-secure and supported start that enables pursuit of things that are unlikely to pan out. Still no small luxury, by any means.

even if mathematically their finances are closer to minimum wage earners than to the 0.0000001% of ultra wealthy.

FWIW 0.1% is already 38 million dollars (net worth, US, 2012 data).

E: Speaking of context, you were specifically talking about commonality between the, idk, bottom 1-10%, top 1-10%, and (whatever is ultra-wealthy). So my point may be the one made out-of-context.

The 120k went into the label, he pumped another million into her directly just for the first album.

btw I tried to find a trustfull source for the claim that it was only 120k. There are different numbers thrown around, while the 120k is the lowest. The source of that number is Wikipedia and the 2 linked "resources" for that don't mention it. One of the 2 resources is even an article that is not about Tailor Swift but rather one about some Tobey Keith instead.

I don't think it was disclosed. I couldn't find any proof about the amount.

She was 14 when "signing" the record label contract.

This is basically the moment where they used that load of money.And everyone who is thinking that she is a self-made anything is blind by choice.

Parents throwing Kids at that age into international careers make me at least sceptical about their motivation. That it seems to have worked out this time, doesn't change that at all.

The current world in which the median yearly income is basically poverty

Taylor's dad got her daughter a label to help make her a star, but I think that Taylor might not have done as well if she went through typical music industry channels. Taylor wasn't a Rebecca Black kind of artist; she wrote a lot of her own music and was able to define her image as herself at a time when that wasn't common at that time.

Keep in mind she came up around the time the music industry has lost most of its revenue due to streaming. The music industry would have commonly invested in Taylor like artists a decade or two ago, but the economics of doing that wasn't there. Self promotion and funding also wasn't that uncommon, a lot of the rap around that time came out under the same model of artists promoting their own work before getting signed; Taylor just had more resources.

But even then, daddy buying an label would explain a one hit wonder, or maybe even a good album or two. It wouldn't explain Taylor's sustained success. Money only goes so far.

That explains how she had a headstart in her career, but has nothing to do with her being so popular right now.

Besides the insanely huge help she had on the beginning, the bigger part was for sure the knowledge transfer in terms of how to run a monetary wise successfull business.

And yes she is talented, I'm not saying she isn't. But the advantage she had, due to this, speak for itself.

Oh shnit, I didn't even know about this. Okay that explains at least a bit.

Thanks.

They worked mid-level jobs in finance, which pays well compared to most careers, but it's just on the higher end of middle class. I know several successful people in the music industry and that's honestly a pretty common story. They all had high end instruments and gear at a young age. One band I know had a dedicated jam space at one of their father's warehouses. They could leave their gear set up in a secure location and play loud anytime for as long as they liked. Things like that really contribute to success.

The Kid Laroi is another example of it. Both parents were in the industry and he had a development contract at 14. At 17 he was living with Juice Wrld and doing remixes with Miley Cyrus and Justin Bieber. That doesn't happen by accident.

The music industry has been a racket for nearly 100 years. Music doesn't get popular because people like it, it gets popular because it's promoted. Way back when, promoters would pay radio stations to play their music to encourage sales. The methods are slightly different now, but it's still the same kind of old boy's club telling people what they like.

Taylor Swift understood the industry she was getting into, and was very adept at exploiting it.

This is true, but not everything that gets promoted gets popular. A lot also flunks.

Taylor Swift just happens to hit a sweet spot that appeals to a lot of people.

And music has a self-reinforcing spiral. People listen to music from artists that they like, and which their peers like.

So a popular artist could theoretically release an album without any promotion and it would still become popular, just because people will be curious to listen to the new songs from an artist that they already like (of course, record labels will always heavily promote work from their popular artists to make them even more popular).

She appeals to a lot of people because she followed the script of what has been established as appealing to a lot of people, what people have been trained to like. It's the same manufactured crap that has always been promoted, the difference is she's an artist that knows what that is, rather than the artist being directed that way.

Her songs are produced by the CIA and contain subliminal messages that make her irresistible.

This makes about as much sense to me as the apparent means by which she has become this successful.

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You are asking an infinitely difficult question of why she is so incredibly popular, I don't think I can tell you why she's more popular than, say, Beyoncé. Except maybe that she is more consistent. That said, I'll give you my perspective on why I like Taylor Swift.

I'm a dude and my music taste is pretty diverse but I mostly grew up listening to metal and punk. That said, when I left my ex (for the second time). It felt really good to listen to We are never ever getting back together on repeat. Most breakups I've had, had songs that have helped me through and leaving a toxic relationship... It just felt really good to repeatedly sing those words over and over.

I don't know if it's actually true but I'm a guitarist and I've heard the phrase "Taylor Swift is the Beatles of the 21st century" meaning her music releases currently have the largest impact on guitar sales and popularity. If for nothing else, I respect her a lot for performing live with a guitar. She doesn't do anything crazy but you don't have to have crazy guitar skills to make good music. I personally enjoy learning her songs every now and then because a) they are relatively straightforward to learn but still encompass nice playful elements, b) I am mostly interested in becoming a better singer nowadays and her songs are definitely challenging for me to sing.

  1. Both folklore and evermore are really nice albums imo. Very nice and tasteful music. Last year I had a phase where I was having trouble finding music. I was sick of extreme metal, I was sick of hardcore techno, and I listened to so much leftist folk and folk punk that I grew sick of it. All the music I listened to was always fast, intense and challenging. I just wanted nice songs that I can sing along to with real instrumentation. I realised I don't mind pop music but I like real instruments because they feel more real to me (fwiw lol, please don't take this as hatred for electronics, I also love techno as stated above). Well folklore and evermore offer just that for me. Nice songs with real instruments and beautiful instrumentation. I prefer folklore for being darker but evermore uses more guitar which I also like. My fav songs out of the 2 albums:

Folklore

  • cardigan
  • mirrorball
  • this is me trying
  • invisible string

Evermore

  • willow
  • champagne problems
  • 'tis the damn season

I still want to express that I don't always like her lyric writing. She uses brand names a bunch and I also feel like there are often references to American things which I just don't know about.

Also, while I like folklore and evermore, I find them borderline impossible to listen to all the way through. All the songs basically strike the same mood, it's nice relaxing music, but there's not a big emotional arc throughout the albums for me. I tend to stop listening to evermore once I reach "no body, no crime"... God that song is awful lol.

Thanks, I'll check out your recommended songs from folklore and evermore.

I'm not a huge fan or anything, but I think she's a really talented musician and really good at managing her fame. She keeps a strong relationship with her fans, her music spans numerous genres, and her father is a wealth manager.

Watching her Tiny Desk concert helped me get more into her music so I could enjoy it with my daughter.

Very cool, thanks for the recommendation, I love those tiny desk concerts. I'll watch it

Don't really see her as being massively more popular than people like Michael Jackson or Madonna at their peak. She's like 18 years into her career at this point, like a snowball accumulating more and more fans.

Of course it helps that she had rich parents to be able to grease the wheels in the early stages of her career.

The music is alright. There's a decent amount of it, and it's fairly varied. It's called pop for a reason.

Madonna has 300 million sales over her career, and Taylor Swift has 200 million sales and almost twice as many awards (from the numbers I am finding on websites) at about half her age.

As far as I can find anything, it looks like Madonna sold half as many albums by the time she was in her mid-thirties.

I'm not convinced, especially after some of the answers in this post by other commenters, that just because they're both pop stars, their success is mutually definable or explained.

I'll sum up some answers that made things click for me

  1. She writes songs spanning many emotions.

  2. Her albums span multiple genres. (I've only heard pop and country, but I'm not a fan.)

  3. She is hard working, prolific, and puts on a show.

So with that combination it seems she has something for everyone. Personally, I only know one TS song, but it's catchy as hell. So there's no song that I hate that happens to TS song either.

About point 2.: I'm a Paul Simon fan and he spans multiple genres, but I wouldn't expect non-fans to know that.

I've also only heard her pop, although i keep hearing that she spans multiple genre.

I'll ask the next Swifty that responds that they would recommend in any other genre besides relationship pop, break up pop.

Thanks, and the Paul Simon note is interesting. What do I listen to if I'm curious about listening to unconventional Paul Simon?

The Paul Simon I'm definitely not familiar with.

I'm not a music expert but here goes.

Paul Simon is most identified as folk. The act Simon and Garfunkel is basically pure folk if such a thing exists.

Listen to the opening of Late in the Evening. He's singing folk, but there is no guitar (to my ear). Instead it's a bass guitar playing funk. Later some horns come in. They sound like mambo to me.

There are two songs on Graceland that he recorded with a South African band. This was during apartheid. He heard a bootleg tape from this SA group, and had to travel to a part of South Africa that he was banned from doing business in.

Does he make it some powerful statement? No, that would be a stunt. He just wanted to make music with them. "I Know What I Know" is about the insipid-ness of show biz party-networking culture. It's wild.

Awesome, thanks. Yeah, I only know about him as folk so I'm interested to listen to these.

She started in country music and moved to mostly pop from there, a lot of her original country music is about breakups too but that's pretty typical for women in country music because they don't get much freedom of movement for topics there unless they're hyper famous.

great marketing

Peak reddi .. I mean lemmy.

-3500. Making more progress!

Imagine stalking someone on the Internet because you don't like their opinions 🤣

Right noticing some douche keeps reappearing who has -3500 karma -- definitely StAlKiNg

Wait, you can see user karma on Lemmy? When I click on a profile it doesn't appear anywhere. It must be invisible to me since I'm just using the website.

It shows on the profile page in Boost but yeah you're right, on the web UI it's not a thing.

Taylor for me is extremely emotional and autobiographical. I connect emotionally with her songs in a way that allows me to feel what she's feeling. Music is emotional and usually has a message, but for me her music does make me feel more.

Which makes sense, I always loved pink Floyd for their art and what they were trying to say, I usually am an emotional person, and I think for a lot of people that's why she's popular.

You have an emotion you're working through? She's got a song for it.

Sure didn't expect her to be compared with Floyd.

Probably because it's a very weird comparison to make. If I had to pick a polar opposite of pop music in most every way, I would probably pick one of the weirder pink Floyd albums.

Not weird at all. Roger Waters was extremely autobiographical with his music, he sang extensively about the war, family, and what he was going through. The Wall sure but The Final Cut was intense, dude has some emotions to process.

Taylor and him do the same thing, just different life experiences. He is more political but far, but she's gone political, look at The Man, You Need to Calm Down, and one of her most scathing ones, Miss Americana and the Heartbreak Prince.

For shows as well I've never seen more well put on shows, Roger Waters with The Wall and Taylor with Eras, both extremely precise shows, they are both absolute showmen.

Alright I'll give those songs a listen. I appreciate the response

Thank you for your answer, I'm glad to hear from a fan of hers.

So her songs are making you feel something in a way other female artists who sing about breakups do not?

Does she mostly sing about relationships? I haven't listened to much of her stuff, just whatever is the popular stuff that I wouldn't be able to avoid while I'm walking around.

And then the first few songs that pop up when I type in Swift on YouTube because I'm trying to figure out the answer to this question after she breaks like the 12th record of her career

Relationships were a key one in her earlier albums, but there's a lot more. I think her singing about her experiences is part of the reasons millennials really tend to her especially, we kind of grew up with her

The awkward teenage years, the first loves, the deep friend connections, losing those friends, romantic betrayal, work betrayal, and more.

She also is extremely versatile. She's played and experimented with different types of music. People like to shoehorn her into pop, but she's done obviously country, pop, folk, a bit of rock, lover in my mind was a decent synth album, she's played around with a lot

That's why we all talk about her Eras, each era in her life she made an album, and that album usually has a different style. Personally my favorite is reputation, which was heavier and more electronic. Synth? Like I said try Lover or Midnights. Folk like Mumford and sons or Lumineers? Try Folklore and Evermore.

One thing for sure is that you don't have to like everything or anything of hers, but she has such range that it is rare that someone hates every song of hers.

Also I should say I'm a mod of !taylorswift@poptalk.scrubbles.tech and the dozens of us lemmy swifties are always happy to have more members :)

I really like synth and I think they are her least referenced work in this post so far, but I'm very interested in listening to her synth albums.

Thanks

I don't think a more wildly different artist to TS could be found than Pink Floyd. Things they have in common: are human. Trolling or what?

Lol nope, I'm a fan of both. People don't need to be put in buckets where they only like something's and not others.

I've seen Roger Waters twice, watched him build the wall on stage and send out the inflatables, and it kicked ass.

Also saw Eras last year in person, and it was the most precise well thought out concert I've seen.

No rules in life saying you can't like both

I mean that's cool, I don't like boxes either. Just a very unexpected comparison

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I'm definitely not a swiftie, but she does have some catchy music, and Shake it off was the default song for getting my kids out of bad moods and over bad days.

I also used to think she was a catty bitch for the way she was caught on camera making a face when Selena Gomez was with Bieber. However since then I've heard her speak about things she cares about and I appreciate her passion and that she's against the things I'm generally against, she definitely seems to care and motivate her swifties to care about the right things, and that makes me tend to support her.

Listening to her speak as a public figure is a good idea, I'll look for some interviews. Thanks

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Just commenting to let you know that you are not alone in your confusion.

To me, most of her songs are pleasant but forgetable.

She seems like just one of many female Pop artists with a bit of girl-next-door charm. Maybe that charm is her appeal?

Maybe she is a witch?

Who knows.

That's the thing, I would just think "current pop sensation" but she seems way more successful and receives so many more awards than other pop artists.

It's somewhat shocking.

Probably a witch

ITT:

I understand a lot of you seem to just not like Taylor Swift, which is not at all where I'm coming from.

The songs of hers that I hear and I like are fun pop songs, but I don't understand why her fun pop songs win twice as many awards as any other artist, and 20 times as much or more of most artists

My explanation is that she is a symptom of societal decline. She is in a constant news cycle, in the news every day. Just like Trump or Elon Musk, that's how she makes it further to the top. As a results, generations upon generations begin to forget that good music is possible.

Goodbye as I get downvoted to hell!

If you get down voted to hell its because you just tried to compare a decent person to Trump and Musk. Your opinion, while within your rights to shout at the world, is in my opinion completely asinine.

At least you're self aware enough to recognize that people are not gonna agree with you. So congrats, I guess.

Decent or not decent (I personally don't care), she's a rich person using the same tactics. 🤷

It's just like, marketing 101, not some kind of mystery really.

Sorry, someone's got to take the bullet I guess. I upvoted you, although I think you might be interested in a lot of these answers that each explain a small part of why she's so successful.

They're really interesting taken as a whole.

Fan easter eggs in her social media, bleeding autobiographical lyrics, clever wordplay, painstaking production, rich parents, hyper emotionality, various genres, honest presented personality, there are a lot of reasons that illuminate my understanding of her as a phenomena

I'm glad you asked the question... I've been complaining to my friends on a weekly basis about Taylor Swift showing up on The Guardian, on the BBC, on the first page of the CNN under "Word News" (not even entertainment anymore!) and it angers me that anything she does is news. She has some beans and farts? NEWS. She goes to literally any place in existsnece: TOP NEWS!

Maybe it's got something to do with online news papers losing money, so they want any click-bait any sucker with some "Swiftie" news or the other... Maybe she pushes herself into these articles... Maybe both. Either way, her jet-trips are a waste of carbon emissions, like any rich person... and we will eat her first before we eat the rest of the rich (clearly the last bit is a joke).

I'm a person with no social media to not have to subscribe to celebs on those sites, yet this woman seems to follow me everywhere I go, when I'm just trying to read about my own people being genocided or about the war on Ukraine... I don't think she has any impressive musical talent (go ahead, downvote me), but she sure is talented at business and outreach.

Do I value that skill? No. Do I respect it? To an extent.

You should check out some of these threads around us, enough of them make sense to build up a pretty solid reasoning for her popularity, at least to my understanding.

And you're right, her outreach settled our a key component, although I keep hearing about her business acumen but haven't got any concrete examples yet

Most ppl didnt say that.... they said ppl like it cuz they're told to

She makes music that a lot of people really like. Often times because they relate. It sounds like it’s not your kind of music, and that’s fine. Not really any more to it.

That doesn't explain all of the awards. And it's not just a lot of people, it's often a historical amount of people right?

That many people and that many awards just because she has the same formula every other pop star has?

She’s really good at making pop music. Just because it doesn’t appeal to you doesn’t mean she’s not good.

My friend Alex is really into metal music. Like, it’s all he listens to. Every once in a while I’ll listen to some of his songs, and they all sound the same to me. The stuff he says is awful sounds the same to me as the stuff he says is incredible. That doesn’t mean there’s no variation in metal or that it’s all just formulaic, and it doesn’t mean that bands can’t be really good at making and playing metal music, it just means I can’t tell when they are, cause it’s not my kind of music.

It appears to be the same for you and pop music. It all sounds the same to you because it’s not your kind of music.

Wow! Those are pretty virulent, unsubstantiated assumptions.

I like pop music, hence my curiosity.

The reason I prefaced my statement with “it appears” is precisely because I didn’t want to assume.

A velvet glove on an iron fist.

I suggest speaking and theorizing based on your personal experience rather than the positions you assume others take.

Ok, so take this same disdain that you have for other people assuming your thoughts and feelings, and apply it to your own views on Taylor Swift’s fans. Just like you, they have their own thoughts and feelings, and unlike you, they don’t find her music unremarkable.

And look, here we are, there's a huge post where people answering the question I actually asked instead of funneling irrelevant natives toward boring conclusions.

Yes, everyone has their likes and dislikes, kudos to your revelation, but aren't you curious about the world at all? How it functions? Why people like that they like?

If not, you probably aren't going to understand or appreciate the conversations going on all around you gainfully answering the question this post presents, in which people try to pin down, or rather, crowdsource a theory on what makes someone who is unremarkable from a distance so culturally celebrated and unique.

She makes music that a lot of people really like.

That doesn’t explain all of the awards.

Yes it literally does. Disappointed to see OP approach this with such bad faith—it’s clear you don’t want to have your predetermined conclusions challenged. :(

This is an open-ended question, and there have been tons of useful, insightful answers that have changed my views if you cared to read, as to why this particular pop star, who doesn't seem to differ much from most other pop stars, is rewarded so much more and is so much more popular.

Yes, people like her music, but that isn't the question, which is why do people like her music?

Why are Israel and Palestine fighting?

"They don't like each other."

Phew, case solved, now you don't have to learn anything new and you understand nothing more than you did before.

live feed of the goalposts being moved:

what makes taylor swift so popular? (post title)

what explains all of taylor swift’s awards? (your first comment in this thread)

that isn’t the question, which is why do people like her music? (this comment)

idk what to say buddy lol.

I wish people would stop using the goalposts comment when you obviously don't know what it means.

Let's look at these three questions.

  1. What are the mechanisms that explain Taylor Swift's popularity?

  2. What are the mechanisms that explain Taylor Swift's recognized popularity?

  3. What are the mechanisms that explain Taylor Swift's recognized musical popularity?

Pretty on message.

If you look at the threads of this post, you'll find the most people recognize that and are contributing to the answer.

someone provides their answer to number #1 and you dismissed it without evidence. i find this gross and in bad faith; this is all im pointing out. 👍

Do you want to provide any evidence for that? I've answered tons of people who have answered the first question, and for the most part we've had engaging conversations and many of them have contributed to the overall answer.

And that's not all you're pointing out. You repeatedly are inaccurately attacking the merits of my questions or comments rather than responding to the questions or comments.

If you consistently encounter a lot of "bad faith" arguments to your comments that are provably in good faith, you should probably look a little closer to home for where those bad faith arguments lie.

Awards are generally either the industry giving itself awards for their own products or a metric of sales, which is a product of good marketing. Neither of these things have to do with talent or originality.

I'm leaning here also, I'm really interested in the awards she receives now that she's re-recorded her albums versus the amount she got when she broke out.

Things go viral sometimes and it snowballs. The more famous you are, the more famous you can become. She's also good enough at being an entertainer to keep riding the wave of increased fame, with added resources the bigger she gets.

Under the Influence has an episode about her marketing.

Listened to it, I agree that the rerecorded albums was a great move, especially at a time when everybody was tired of the record companies manipulating artists.

And the Easter eggs are a good point that I'm convinced rally her fans into a community that think they're getting something special, and the eras tour is really interesting to me because obviously everybody's talking about it, but I don't hear much substantive about its organization.

I didn't hear about the 10 different sets or that she has her own in-house staging company, self-funding the movie and it's just amazing.

I really like the point at the end when he mentions that she keeps winning. All of her momentous undertakings result in a victory on her part.

Really interesting episode, thanks

She's been an industry plant since the beginning of her life, her parents were both rich and her dad was already in the music industry.

This was mentioned and I do think it explains an important part of her initial success, but of course not all of it.

Miley Cyrus, Lana del ray, Zoe Kravitz all have wealthy parents whom were big in the music industry, but aren't as big Taylor Swift is.

It also seems important to note that her parents were not in the music industry, her dad was a stock broker and her mom was a marketing executive, according to what I'm reading here.

How was her dad in the music industry?

She was one of the few singers who appealed to love-crazy teenager girls a couple of decades ago.

Because she's not only good at producing the right music, she's good at business and has the right connections to launch them.

Thanks, I'm very curious about this. What are some salient examples of her business prowess?

My favorite...

Guy owns her masters.

Taylor says "can I buy my master's?"

Guy says "nope"

Taylor says "ok" then then re-records all of those albums again in a complete "fuck you"

Yeah, that is about as pop-boss as it gets, especially for someone who doesn't need to do it.

I went to a Daddy-Daughter school dance with my kid a few weeks ago, she's in Kindergarten, so it was just a new experience for her going to a dance, we had a good time. However, it's been a while since I've been to any sort of dance function at all (in school or out), but I'm pretty sure that more than half the songs were all Taylor Swift songs. I don't know if that's indicative of white people dance music selections in general, or if this was specific to that function and who they thought the girls wanted to listen to, but her music apparently gets played alot.

I think her popularity might be tied to her relatively clean image. Apart from the serial dating, the racist boyfriend thing, and the wasteful jet planes, she's still fairly clean in the eyes of popular America, she apparently hasn't had a big sex scandal or nude photos leak. Hell, when fake photos of her started spreading everywhere recently, that's when politicians started talking about reigning in and regulating AI Art, and that's been around for years now (even photoshopping images has been a thing for ages).

Funny enough though, my daughter actually hates Taylor Swift.

Ha, yeah, I agree with you that the clean image certainly helps lend an air of credibility to her success

Why did so many 12- year- olds buy Batman T-shirts in 1989? Other T-shirts were surely available?

Yeah why do boys like coola super heroes with a cool tv show and awesome design? I guess we'll never know.

It was about a specific movie, that was HEAVILY marketed, not a TV show.

Kanye interrupted her acceptance speech with some crazy shit.

From there on, it was just maintaining the momentum.

And all these years later, Jay Z was just complaining on stage that his wife should have won Album of the year after Taylor won it again.

I do think this is a good point, that she got a cultural relevance boost from this.

Tbh, I'm not a swiftie, but ever since the Kanye thing I've hated Kanye and been partial to T swift.

Kanye is just such an asshole. I don't see how anyone can like him.

It's very difficult for me to listen to any Kanye West music no matter how much he's pumped up since I heard him talk on rogan's podcast and sounded literally insane, and that Taylor Swift thing was unbelievable, in the actual sense of that word.

i love kanye but he hasn't been the same ever since his mom died and it went downhill during coronavirus lockdown. he used to be a personification of self confidence but I don't think i can say the same anymore. wish he gets proper help.

I honestly don't know. What I do know, though, is that her fanbase is weird and likes putting curses on people. No joke.

Weird keeps things interesting and curses are make believe, so if it's fun for them, no harm no foul.

You could ask this question about any popular artist for the last 70 years, probably longer, why The Beatles, why Elvis Presley, why Michael Jackson, why Madonna?

Hype mainly.

The Beatles had a huge and demonstrable effect on a large portion of rock n roll music. I'm not their biggest fan in any way, but you can literally see how they helped initiate a huge change in popular music in their era if you look at what came before them and what came after. It's pretty disingenuous to claim it was mainly only hype.

In retrospect, yes. They became hugely popular and that influenced lots of artists that came after them. Was “Love Me Do” really that groundbreaking? How about “Twist and Shout”?

The Beatles Elvis Presley and Michael Jackson all seem unique in several salient ways that explain their success, Madonna at least in fashion.

And all of those artists were at the beginning of one movement or another, Taylor's right in the middle of popular pop.

I can't think of anything comparably unique about Taylor Swift, though I don't know much about her, hence the curiosity.

In hindsight possibly. I’m only old enough to comment on Michael Jackson and Madonna but at the time their music wasn’t that unique. Michael Jackson absolutely pushed the boundaries with his music videos. Madonna played up to controversy. That’s how they built their audiences.

So on your mind every artist is equally appealing and equally talented? What a confusingly random thought to assert as fact.

No, that’s not what I meant at all. I’m saying that there are equally talented artists as the really big, well known ones and the reasons they weren’t as big is possibly down to not being in the right place at the right time.

Hmm ok. Maybe I was just sleepy. If I thought you meant that I would've been in full agreement

I'm with you dude, she has a completely unremarkable to me as well.

In terms of her songs and dancing, definitely.

But I really think this threat has pointed out why she's so successful.

Squeaky clean image so she can be played everywhere, great marketing, high production, clever lyrics, a lot of community outreach, autobiographical social media and songs, and I finally understand why people talk about her business acumen after I listened to a podcast about her eras tour and how much was self produced.

She's knocking it out of the park on every front she can while focusing solely on the music industry.

Definitely an interesting phenomenon.

I'm still not wild about her music, but I was very curious how someone so young can become so successful when she sounds so similar to all of the other artists I've grown up listening to.

Cause shes hot and i like her voice. I like her pop stuff better than her country though. There are a few of her country songs i like but very few compared to her pop stuff.

I hate that how hot she is or isn't has any bearing on her music's popularity.

Male artists have certainly used sex appeal to sell records and tickets without much issue, I can't see why it would be any different if Swift does it.

I hate that male artists do it, too. Spectacle and visuals are a part of live shows, of course, but I wish recorded music could stand on its own without relying on sex appeal or any kind of visuals in order to sell.

Oh boy, I think I can help you here. My wife became a huge swiftie part way through my being with her, and I'm a musician myself, so I've ended up accidentally digesting a whole lot of her music extremely thoroughly when I normally would not have.

I already don't listen to the radio, but when I'd heard her songs before I'd casually enjoyed them as catchy hits, but I have come to respect her quite a bit as an artist and genuinely enjoy a good few of her songs. There could be a whole documentary on her success and why, but I'll try to sum it up as best as I understand through accidentally learning the ways of her fans and analyzing her music, even trying to be succint there are a few big points to hit on here, and this will be stupid long, probably two comments.

  1. Her music is very well written and mixed/produced/performed. On its own that doesn't really matter much in the sea of pop artists, but her secret weapon in terms of retaining fans is her variety. Basically, this is what allows the "eras tour" to exist. She started country rock, became synthy pop, rebooted into indie rock, and has now transitioned back into electronic pop, but with a more laid-back vibe than her excitable pop anthem days.

Her songs are mostly very smartly written pop, but her band focused music also has some smart instrumental writing and performances for people who enjoy music more than just for pop catchiness. For instance, the song I most enjoy by her is Tolerate It, which is written in a 5/4 time signature, which is very unusual and interesting for pop music, but the song is so smartly written and the vocals are delivered in a catchy enough way that the listener doesn't even really notice the strange time signature.

To top this point off, her lyrics can be quite good. Mostly, it's just well-written pop again, but on some of her songs, and particularly across the indie rock styled albums Folklore and Evermore the lyrics can be really excellently written and poetic. The subjects of love and loss she predominantly writes about are generally relatable by everyone, and probably very relatable to some, but she also writes about other things on and off, like gender inequality or the loss of family, other very relatable topics for people in general.

  1. Her start in country rock was very down to earth and her immediate talent in songwriting out the gate established a strong cult following early on. Again, this is not a very unique thing for pop artists, but her secret weapon here is that she has retained a very down to earth persona and a feeling of honesty with her fans, which is bolstered by the fact that she writes her own music.

She collaborates with artists, too, but she definitely also has a very strong "author's voice", and if you listen to and analyze enough of her music you can come to understand some of her unique melodic touches and bits of her songwriting that are throughout her whole catalog. This is why I, as a musician, respect her the most. If she just took songs from others it wouldn't be the same thing. It's a bit like Michael Jackson and how he would really give it his all for songs and his personal touch vocally always came through, no matter the genre style he was performing.

  1. She's extremely smart and doesn't breed controversy. If you listen to interviews with her or really hear her talk about anything in depth at all you learn that she knows a shitload of stuff about a lot of things and is very well spoken. She's whip smart and that no doubt has significantly contributed to her success on a business side. She also doesn't do anything evil or controversial aside from the regular mass production of merch and usage of private jets, etc.. her biggest controversies were writing too many breakup songs that got popular, which, compared to many other artists is not even ranking as controversy. For someone who's been in the game for this long that's a big deal for staying power and loyalty. (Continued in second comment)

Thanks for the reasoning, I've been watching the videos with subtitles on and agree that she has clever writing and many of her songs to sound very autobiographical, I think both of those add into what's earned her such recognition

  1. Little touches and interesting artistic moves contribute to making her fans die hard and have a lot of "Taylor" to consume. In particular, she treats the reveal of information about upcoming music and projects like an ARG. Her music videos have visual symbolism or color coding that takes from her musical history and foreshadows her moves in a way that she never explicitly reveals directly.

As an example, some music video has symbolism of a clock, with fingers with painted nails replacing the clock hands, each finger's paint color corresponds to an album's color (every album of hers has a unique color that represents it in her catalog). Each finger's album color corresponds to the number on the clock that the finger is pointing at, representing the month of the year that she ended up announcing the re-release of those albums when she went through and began re releasing all of her music all over again (in order to legally own the music, these albums technically originally belonged to her production company, but since she wrote them she can re-record and re-release them to claim ownership).

This whole concept of color coded symbolism and foreshadowing happens constantly, her fans are constantly on a very deliberate easter egg hunt that pays off time and time again by rewarding the fans with new music or merch drops. And her move to re release and record her old music is at once a brilliant business move, but also a respectable artistic move, and as far as I know is the only time in history this has happened with an artist, and it is, again, her music variety and quality that lets this happen.

  1. Lastly, through all of this she builds a huge, tight fan base who can appreciate any number of different things about her music or her personality. She writes good music at the core of it, which is the most important part. She makes strong business moves and isn't afraid to go outside the box and change genres, make puzzles for her fans, or do something unprecedented. There are a ton of reasons she is as big as she is, hopefully this summed up the important parts enough for you to understand, but there are a lot of reasons she's become the largest pop star ever, and musicians everywhere should take note of these things.

I'm with you, OP. There has to be something we're missing, right?

I think people in this thread have offered a pretty good mosaic of all of the things that lend to her inordinate success.

It's been really interesting reading everyone's answers and then looking for corroborating evidence in her music, videos, cultural touchstones and so on

As someone who doesn't really follow any sort of pop media or celebrities, I've often heard her songs around on the radio somewhere but just as often have I heard some other over produced pop singer and couldn't have told you if it was Swift or not.

That's why it's so baffling how she's received so many awards and constantly breaks records. Like dozens of awards. Why?

It's probably closer to why people like trump only the swifties are probably less inclined to kill people that don't like Taylor swift.

Or people really found her whiny breakup song phase relatable. That's probably what got the ball rolling. Then it's just like the Beatles or something but with objectively worse music.

I really don't like any of her songs that I have heard. To be fair I can't recall ever liking any songs that were ever on the radio during the time I have been alive at least.

It's worth noting that of her top played songs in Spotify, I think maybe only one of them was on the radio. Her two pandemic albums Evermore and Folklore do not get radio time at all, I don't recall hearing much on the radio from her albums Lover or Reputation either, but probably some.

I think a lot of times people heard shake it off or similar when it was played all the time and think that is representative.

objectively

In their time, the Beatles also weren't considered very good by the non-fans. Also, subjectively, I don't think "love me do" is a great song. I don't think Taylor Swift writes really bad songs, I'm just not into the music/ singing style.

This is a great cover though. And, objectively, it shows her song writing is fine.

Fine, but boring. I want to have some bit of surprise in my music I actively consume.

She is a super solid, consistent pop writer and performer, but she still has not had more than a couple of songs that have grabbed me.

I’m not going to be pissed people enjoy her, though.

OP, can you explain why any other celebrity whom you do not follow is popular?

if not, i think your question is unfairly asked

you are framing this as though fame is a question with a simple y=mx+b formula for an answer, as though pop music isn’t a billion dollar industry of hundreds of thousands of creative professionals (not just musicians) vying against one another for their opportunity to make a mark.

with full respect and appreciation for your curiosity, it’s fine to “not get” a person’s music, but that doesn’t mean you are owed an explanation for the entire raison de’tre of the pop culture industry.

I'm not curious about the whole industry, just about this hyper-successful artist who appears unremarkable to me and isn't the first to pioneer any particular pop movement like other hyper-successful artists before her.

I'm assuming there must be things I don't see.

I don't think I'm owed an explanation, but I think it's perfectly fair to ask for an explanation that others with more experience in the subject can choose to provide.

If you look into the comments here, there are a lot of really good explanations and answers.

+1 for pointing out facts and elements of her character that changed your perspective in recent comments. i was getting really off-put by your earlier replies, hence my abrasion.

i want to point out that a lot of the things you “discovered” here could easily have been found out by instead reading some music journalism. nothing has been said here that hasn’t already been said hundreds of times by well-known music critics you can find on google.

She is authentic. That’s the difference.

What in the Sam hell makes you believe that?

Because she has been writing songs since she was a teen. Her gift for songwriting is undeniable. It has always been easy for her. She said she can write a song in 20 minutes. Everything else has been developed over the years from being a regular awkward teenager to a performer at little league ball parks, into a beautiful woman on the international stage. Right wingers resent powerful women and that she has become. They think a woman’s talent can’t be real that “some man” must have put them there and it blows their fucking minds. So there’s that.

None of that explains how you believe shes genuine or authentic. She seems like a good actress to me, who knows what shes like off camera.

Can you elaborate on this?

I suspect that's why it's so easy to pull the half second glances in all of her music videos, that she actually believes in what she's singing.

There's also a kind of " I can't believe I'm here" drive to all of her performances, although it is odd that she's so often has multiple hers inside one video.

But is this an expression of her naivity and therefore childlike belief in anything she comes up with and sings until a couple years later?

Also, do you know how much of her catalog is personally written and how much of it is supplemented by songwriters?

Are you a woman that’s went through a lot of break ups? I’m assuming no otherwise you’d already know the answer.

Correct. Is that mostly her song catalog, songs about breakups?

I’m not super familiar with it, but she’s helped a lot of women through heartbreak. That does a lot for your popularity. With at times it being a super catchy tune. Over and over and over. She’s not new at all.

Sheep need a god to worship. There have been thousands before her; madonna, elvis, beattles, whos music i could careless less for, and there will be thousands after her

I think she shouldnt be popular, and I guess it's because of marketing. The media companies put her in the spot light a lot, and people got used to her music I guess.

It's not like with Michael Jackson or Madonna where the music were actually very good and creative. This is like pizza I guess, something to listen to that sounds the same as everything else.

She may not be your cup of tea, which is totally fine. No music is for everyone. But to say her music is not creative or good like Michael Jackson and Madonna is silly. It definitely reveals an unfamiliarity with her catalog. While I like Madonna, she has not competently covered as much ground as Taylor Swift has been able to.

I used to not really like Taylor Swift until I actually sat down and gave her music a real listen, then I got what all the hubbub was about. She has a lot of albums for her age, and there's relatively little filler on them (some have none in my opinion).

I admit I haven't listed her very much. I will give it another try. What album should I start with?

It really depends on your taste. If you enjoy pop, 1989 is a good entree. If you enjoy moodier stuff, folklore is not a bad choice. If you enjoy country, try Fearless. You could also just sample some hits and, when you find one that's ok, try the album it's on. If you really want to run the gamut, going in chronological order is a good way to see the evolution of her sound and songwriting. The Taylor's Version albums are worth listening to instead of the originals, though you can skip the bonus tracks if you're not a huge fan.

That being said, you could justifiably come out on the other side still not liking her stuff. But I hope you'd at least have an appreciation for the artistry.

Ok I listened to 1989. A few songs were actually good. Catchy, great for car.

Ok she isn't as awful as I though. Thank you.

i love this lol r/characterarcs 🫶

So I've listened to every single song anybody has mentioned, and most of the albums that they've mentioned in this right, and I can say that her songwriting itself is impressive, not enough to receive double the awards of Lady Gaga, in my opinion, but it is good songwriting, and her music videos are very impressively produced, the timing is compelling in them.

Man, did everyone read some pizza article that I've never heard of?

You're no joke, at least the fourth person to mention pizza.

But even pizza, there are so many brands, how did this brand become far and away the most popular and awarded one. That's the question, not whether pizza is popular, but how did this one brand win so many awards relative to the other brands?