Antinatalism Rule

I don't think I would have brought a new person into the world during any of the other time periods you mention either.

I’d say you can find things that make life worth living if you’re already here. But if someone's not "here", why drag someone you're supposed to love the most into this mess when we can’t even properly look after the children that are already here.

I’m not anti-child - I’d consider adopting if it didn’t cost like $20k. I’m anti-new child for myself, and yeah I get sad when I see other people have kids, especially now. It's like having another kid when you lived in the middle of the dust bowl and people were actively dying from starvation and the dust. Probably not the best time to have kids, similar to now. They just couldn't easily make the choice to not have kids back then.

There are tons of arguments in favour of having kids like what if they cure cancer etc.

However, for myself, I truly believe there will be an ecological collapse due to climate change if not during my lifetime, in the immediate next generation. And we’re still not doing enough. I don’t want to flee natural disasters with a child in tow. One of best things you can do for the climate is not have kids. I'm privileged enough to make that choice so I did, but it's not my only reason. You got late stage capitalism and the accelerating concentration of resources with the hyper wealthy, war / nuclear war, and the fact that pregnancy is one of most risky things I can medically do. Social media, the toxic drug supply, the rise of fascism (again), microplastics in literally fucking everything. I don't even think we'll have social healthcare or social security in Canada by the time I die because they're gutting our programs so badly.

I get that people have a strong reaction to their choices being called immoral. Morality looks different for everyone. However, the counterargument of "Well I have children and they're great and bring me so much joy etc" falls on deaf ears, because it truly does not sound like joy to me and when I say I am anti-child for myself I am telling you that. It's like trying to convince someone skydiving is the greatest thing - some people love it, but not my cup of tea. It is so foreign to me that whenever I hear parents say this it feels like they are trying to convince themselves that they made the right choice.

I don't want to have kids simply because I'm miserable and never consented to being born. I am not suicidal but I would have rather not been born in the first place.
Most people grow up happier than me, so I can't really make a philosophical argument out of my own experience. All the best to you and your family!

Well said.

I'd have to disagree from the angle that, you cannot philoshpy your way out of ecology. If you actually look at a population graph for any species which experiences a massive spike in birthrates, and what comes for them afterwards, you would probably come to a conclusion that the rate at which we've been producing kids is very unsustainable, and while we probably shouldn't tell people not to have kids completely we should probably begin to consider how to transition towards more sustainable population numbers. A given ecosystem can only sustain so much of one species before it begins to break down. Our Eco system is the entire world and it is very much breaking down as we hit record temperatures year after year. There were lights at ends of tunnels during every war as they've always like, ended with a winning side that could rebuild/regrow, and even ecological collapses have been recovered from by humans but we're not going to get to be the humans that recover, and it doesn't look like our kids will be either. So, if we want to have kinda okay lives we should maybe consider minimizing the impact from what is about to happen, and also not bringing children into a world that has pretty much no chance of being better for them than it was for us.

I agree that having kids can be awesome, but the idea it's foolish to see it as a waste of time is shitty as well. OP is perfectly reasonable to find it terrible, because for many people, it is. People are less happy after having children on average, as alien and counterintuitive as it may seem to you. It's a spectrum, with many people actually being happier, or at least more content with their life after. However, many people don't.

The problem is that people make the mistake of seeing children as a means rather than an end. If they knew the truth, that raising children is the end goal for a parent rather than a step to something else, they wouldn't want to do it. Those people shouldn't be mislead. If you won't get satisfaction out of nurturing your kid, it's better for both you and your potential offspring that you live your own life. The kid might grow up and love life, but both of you will suffer for it.

Someone else, someone who really wants to change diapers and deal with tantrums to see a human grow, can raise the next generation just fine. If you want to pass on genes or whatever, but see no purpose beyond that, then have someone adopt them and be on your way. It'd be a win-win for us both.

I've always loved that Samwise Gamgee line. Makes me tear up every time I read it.

More like yes those are the problems and children are not the answer to those problems.

It’s humanity that causes problems

When an invasive species is destroying an ecosystem, what do you do?

I’m not advocating for any policy, I’m just saying people shouldn’t have children. It’s unethical.

Why would you expect a random person on Lemmy to be on your side?

Just think of all them empty mines, sad and alone, only wanting to be filled with the sound of children coughing themselves to death from black lung.

People have children because they want to, not for growth. In a relatively stable society most people don't even have many children...

I'm sure that big bad capitalists will be sad of you not having kids and spending all your time and money on movies, games, traveling, ...

Lol, I'm not far-left but I do love comments like these.

It's important to note that capitalism is far from the only major exploitative system in the world. This said, I'm part of that particular system, and yes... It truly does feel like we're just cogs in an ever-hungry, broken system.

correct. i would have no problem if this post and the subsequent comments defending it didn’t use the words “wrong” and “immoral.” but they do and that’s fascist territory.

I guess each person has a different approach to antinatalism. I don’t want to bring children into the world because unlike many people who outright lie, I do not think it will bring me joy. I’m also scared that if I bring a child into this world and it will suffer as much as I currently do, I won’t be able to live with the blame.

I'm not antinatalist, but I am in favor of voluntary human extinction.

I wish I got to choose if my parents had children.

... without being judged for it, I hope?

I wish they did but the governments are intent on taking that choice away

Yes... But should they get that choice?

If I could wave a magic wand, I'd make it so every 12 year old that could make sperm (trans, cis, whatever) gets a reversible vasectomy automatically. Then, if/when they ever want and plan for starting a family, they can take the class on childhood development and how to be a good parent who raises not shitty humans. If they pass, great! They get to undo the vasectomy and try for a family. If not, oh well, no one wanted to have to support your shitty kids in the first place.

I have no idea how something like this could ever actually be implemented in a fair way... Hense the need for the magic wand

Of course. You can, and it’s your right to do so. But that doesn’t mean it’s ethical.

Yeah, a nuclear exchange would be a faster way of achieving what antinatalists would achieve if they got their way.

Memes are generally divorced from their original source. This format is only used to show the creator has a controversial idea.

antinatalism is depression turned into a moral philosophy

Not necessarily. Antinatalism and other pessimistic points of view can be held by non-depressed people. On the internet, it seems like psychological pessimism is the same as philosophical pessimism as many depressed people do adopt these points of view and flood the forums. Adding to that, they often abandon their philosophical pessimism when their depression lifts, leaving a testimony that it is true: only depressed people defend these ideas. But we need only an example of a person that is not depressed and still values antinatalism on its own to demonstrate that your statement is not the case, and I think I might be that example. Many other examples might be found in universities. I hope one day we get a formal social study so that I do not have to give anecdotal "evidence" and personal information.

Now, I'd add to defend those I know that are indeed depressed, we should be debating and trying to refute the philosophy itself. Even if depression is leading them into these kinds of thoughts, we cannot say that this disproves their ideas. Many brilliant discoveries and inventions were reached in what we classify as pathological states. The manic researcher and crafter is an archetype for a reason (e.g., mad scientist, mad artist), and we have not fewer examples of depressed people that made valuable work, such as author F. Dostoevsky. There are two books that are coming to my mind that explain why (specifically) mood disorders are pathological but still let people do great things: A First-Rate Madness: Uncovering the Links Between Leadership and Mental Illnesses and Touched with Fire: Manic-Depressive Illness and the Artistic Temperament. So, as I was saying, the fact that someone is clinically depressed does not inform us about how true or how solid their ideas might be. Discrediting them just because they suffer from depression would be an ad hominem, and, in the moral part, ableism. We need to listen to/read their ideas and discuss the ideas instead.

it posits itself as a solution to suffering by offering an unrealizable future

This is a very misunderstood part of antinatalism. Almost no antinatalist is utopic in their views, that is, few antinatalists think that the point must be to cease all reproduction and that antinatalism fails if they don't. That would be an ideal scenario; there's no suffering without existence, but that is a dream. There are no goals for many antinatalists, just the idea that bringing children into this world is not ethically correct. They might follow antinatalism and not have children or adopt, but not preach much about it because they know practically no one will listen. I, for instance, bring this problem to people that might have not thought about it before. If they go ahead and have children, I'd still think that was not correct, but well, nothing to do but to help take care of this new life. It can be as pragmatic as that.

but really it's an excuse to not even attempt to make the world better.

No. In my case, I try to help in other ways. This right here is an example as I'm trying to broaden the discussion around these topics in a healthy way because I know Reddit has sadly damaged these debates with a lot of insults and bad attitudes from many sides. They insult people, so these people go to their subreddit and insult them back... It is not a good way to first learn about these topics, and many are learning what antinatalism is first on Reddit. I hope Lemmy will be slightly better.

Anyway, I also try to better the world in the ways I can. Still, as a person that values philosophical pessimism, I think we are only saving lives from a neverending fire, or giving palliatives for an incurable disease. I enjoy my life and I try to help others enjoy theirs as much as this existence lets us.

If anything, philosophies around negative utilitarianism, preference utilitarianism, overall pessimism, etc. tend to respect others a lot and value their suffering negatively. That's usually their point. Suffering is not a "necessary side for pleasure" or "a trial from which we gain something" or "something not that bad" or any explanation different cultures have given. Suffering is bad; in a better world, it wouldn't exist like this. It is tragic, but it is reality, so we must face it and combat suffering as best as we can. I'd say these ethical paths inspire protection of others more than others less centered on sentience.

Finally, it is good advice to seek professional help, but not on the sole basis of someone being an antinatalist. If our OP here is depressed, I do recommend visiting a professional.

/> Pulls existence from the void into this mortal coil

/> Questions how not doing so could have prevented suffering

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I'm enjoying playing devil's advocate here, however. People who justify having children as some sort of gift to the world are far less reasonable, and the arguments being made here by those types are exhausting.

I can diffuse just about every comment like this here with a simple word: "adoption".

I agree that bringing life into the world is morally bad. I also agree that eating other animals is morally bad, as is killing, always. However, that does not mean we should not do these things at times. You just need to understand that you are still committing an immoral act for personal gain. There is no such thing as a perfectly moral existence, as the world is a cruel place which cares little about morality and often forces you to be immoral. You should instead work towards being as moral as in out can when you can, and accept that sometimes morality is out of your hands.

In the case of the child: you are bringing a human consciousness kicking and screaming into this world you know to be dangerous and cruel. That is immoral, and you did it either by failing precaution, or out of personal want or instinct. I think to repent, you are morally obligated to give that child a good life at minimum and ideally the best life you can. You are beholden to them until they can live on their own happily, and you are obligated to help them even after that. I also think that if that child resents how you've cared for them, you have no grounds to hold that against them, as you were the one that forced them into this world.

If you cannot do the above, you are should reconsider whether you are fit to have a child.

It is also arguable that to do justice without injustice, the only option is to adopt or guide another person who has no one providing things they need, and I don't think this kindness should be limited to children but children are the most vulnerable.

Who feeds the machine now, it's you so why are you even around

Need dragon slayers in the time dragons.

What previous status quo are antinatalists trying to return to? "Reactionary" is just the left wing equivalent of "woke".

Then you're leaving the future to them.

They’re not making a choice. They’re anti-choice.

I think most people simply don’t appreciate what having a child is and what a massive responsibility it is.

I think you're talking out of your own ass, if you believe that most parents don't know all that.

I'm more worried about the reefs thriving

I agree. The thought of bringing a child into the world in our current political and economical landscape would be gross.

common spujb w

In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace

One of the problems with the historical Christian system, particularly in the US, is that its predicated on people living in the same place and going to the same church intergenerationally. As people are forced to migrate in order to find employment, they become untethered from their heritage church sites and the attendant communities that added real value to church membership.

The hyper-capitalization of the modern American Protestant movement hasn't helped, either. Very hard for the Southern Baptists to maintain participation when GenX, Millennial, and Zoomer cohorts no longer want to live in these heavily religious communities. They move to areas that don't have these highly active and Christian-dense neighborhoods. They fall out of the hyper-religious social circles. And they lose touch with the media and culture that ultimately drive these religious groups insane.

Meanwhile, the low housing prices and the increasingly finance and tech focused economic sectors are bringing in large numbers of religiously rivalrous migrant populations. The most common new religious constructions in the US are Mosques thanks to a large influx of Arab, Persian, and East African migrants. And because migrant populations and religious builders love cheap land, they're often showing up in and around declining Christian communities.

If you're out living in LA or Tampa or Houston and you're wondering why folks in Peoria, Indiana or Chattanooga, Tennessee or Tulsa, Oklahoma are losing their fucking minds over the super-scary illegal immigrant / Radical Islamic invasion, this is a big reason why. Their kids are all leaving for the coasts while lots of unseasonably tan people are showing up to take their place.

This. I don't have children and don't think its a good idea do to what humanity is doing to the planet, regardless of which element of humanity is to blame, but my other family members have children as do my friends and neighbors. Im not going to proselytize to them or encourage society to disallow it. I may not want it subsidized though, but even that there is often times no choice. For example while people may be bad for the planet in general, ignorant people is worse, so im gonnna want education funded and that same thing plays out for a lot of things.

A person cannot consent to being born

But they also can't request it. What do you do for the people who don't exist yet that desire existence?

I should note that I have gone around the local NICU and requested all the children present to indicate a desire to stop existing. None of them agreed. Many of them were struggling mightily to continue to exist. A few even yelled at me for asking the question. I'll admit its a small sample size, but hard to argue with a 100% existence endorsement.

What's consent to a being that doesn't exist?

Sorry Timmy, you still have to go to bed.

I'm not consenting to paying taxes. Doew that mesn dobby is free now?

I mean I know there's no way to obtain that consent, but I did let my parents know that they should have just gotten the abortion since the condom ripped.

I wasn't planned, and I shouldn't have been born into that family. None of them were ready or cared to be ready or even cared to be with each other as they almost immediately split after my birth.

One thing I'll literally NEVER understand are the women on dating sites with literal newborns... What the actual fuck?

There are more houses/apartments than people.
There is more food going to the trash than what we need.

It's not that we have a lot of people. The problem is the greed of a few and the complacency/idiocy of the rest.

I’ve come to understand how few people deserve life in general

, working in retail I've come to understand how few people deserve life in general.

Hope you don't hurt falling from that highest of horses

That's an output of the system, cat thing. Systems can be changed.

That's just misanthropy.

Hell, working in retail I’ve come to understand how few people deserve life in general.

How full of yourself you are.

if people stop having children, it breaks the system

The overriding fear I've seen is that not enough white children are being born. And as the definition and context of whiteness shifts, this inspires varying degrees of alarm and hatred. A big part of the current Israel/Palestine conflict stems from the demographically older and more infertile Israelis believing they need to cap the younger and more virile Palestinian population by any means necessary (including the current genocide).

So it isn't even that "people stop having children", but the "right" people not having the "correct" kind of children.

we better go full speed ahead on a the most moronically large scale sunk cost calamity that is going to hit us like a brick wall

Sort of the dirty secret about climate change is that its got nothing to do with population size. Enormous amounts of natural resources and carbon emissions are being produced by vanishingly small portions of the population. The whole AI project has been a fossil fuel hog. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan consumed phenomenal volumes of material for the benefit of an infinitesimal sliver of the planet's residents. Reliance on disposable plastics and love of enormous cars has nothing to do with the number of children we've been having.

Anti-natalism is completely divorced from ecological sustainability. In many ways, it is rooted in this delusion that we're all living in these remote rural settings with an infinite frontier to exploit forever. And that mentality emerges most forcefully in places that don't have these dense urban populations.

Yes, common objections are that the economy could crash or that humanity could go extinct. I don't think these are good objections, and I have different reasons. It seems like a bad "an end justifies the means" way of thinking sometimes.

Honestly, the economic crash one is weird. The logic is that we must sacrifice our present and immediate future (that happens to be millions of lives) so that other lives are better (supposedly). Huh? It reminds me of the argument I heard against prohibiting animals in circuses. They argue that the animals that were in the circuses at the time would be slaughtered or abandoned, so their logic was allowing more and more years of animals suffering inside the circuses. What? Yes, the change definitely hurt, but it was possible both to fight against their slaughter and abandonment, and to get rid of that abuse forever. If we decrease in population, of course it will be difficult, but we can find ways to face the difficulties while we get into a better system. We cannot preserve capitalism just because we are afraid of hard times, when capitalism itself is hurting us.

The extinction one is different. We won't get to that point, but even if we did, it would be a free decision of humanity that is hurting no one else. That's the intuition they probably have: that those humans would be hurting the ones that do not exist yet, but I already commented about that reasoning. I don't think there's harm against the non-existant. Our end is possibly inevitable because the habitable Universe seems to have an end. If we decide to fight it, that's okay as long as we do it ethically. But if we collectively decide to end it all, I respect it as long as it's done ethically too. Anyway, as I said, this is mere imagination as I do not see humanity (in the big numbers we now are) never ever choosing this path together. We will be here for some time.

How about don't have kids so you can work more and more flexible hours on demand in aspiration of a fabricated idea of a career

If one animal species is harming an ecosystem then I don't see how it's morally wrong to limit their reproduction.

What's f.ex mean?

There's also antinatalism from a deontological perspective.

But, from the negative utilitarianists I've known and seen, I've found an intense debate about the animal reproduction question. Some say antinatalism should include non-human animals and any other sentient being; some say it's a human-only matter. I do not have an opinion.

Your answer lies in the classic 2006 film "Idiocracy"

Who cares, I'll be dead.

80 years of total infertility across billions of people. Even 99.9% infertility would still leave millions of people. Extinction isn't coming anytime soon.

Sooo back on reddit...

There is r/196. The rule of the sub is that if you visited it, you have to post a meme before you leave. These people are just following the rule.

r/195's 1 rule was if you visit this subreddit, you must post before you leave.

The child can still consider taking the one-way exit as soon as it is able to make such considerations and thereby gets a choice.

You could ask in a similar manner:
Wouldn't it be immoral to disallow this decision making process by leaving the child no choice by not having it?

Asking for consent of an unborn is paradoxial and inherently impossible. It's almost like asking a plant whether it consents into being planted and eaten afterwards. It has no agency. Is it immoral though to plant it and eat it anyway?

Having a child is similar. Get it, let it grow and develop its agency. Then it can decide for itself.

I mean.. with all the negativity in this thread, every single person here is consenting to be alive every single day. While there are a number who choose an early exit, the vast vast statistical majority overwhelmingly consent to live another day every day. With such stats I feel like it's fine to assume the default status is consent in this context.

Plus, speaking of morals, we're just dumb little apes. You give us too much credit if you think we can fight the greatest biological urge of all life over something we've completely invented in our minds : morals, and the morals of the unborn is like double hypothetical.

I would say it isn’t

Yeah, as if automation was never used to cut jobs in order to enrich the wealthy class and the working class didn't get any of the benefits. /s

Valuing children only for the monetary value they will contribute is a very good way of producing unhappy children which in my view is pretty immoral. It's also pretty close to viewing humans as capital and that's problematic in it's own right

I don't care about the species, I care about the people. If someone doesn't want to reproduce, it's better for both them and the species that they don't. People only reproducing when they personally get something out of it will eventually make future generations enjoy it more. Forcing it just promotes suffering, perpetuating the cycle of unhappy parents in the long run.

This whole idea of caring about furthering our "species" is eugenics anyways. My genes make me want to be a parent, but I understand that the genes themselves don't matter for shit. I'm planning to have kids because I will enjoy raising them and helping them live full lives. If someone doesn't share this desire, I'm not gonna force my preference onto them.

Freedom and treating humans with dignity does that very job of eugenics better than the eugenics notion of pressuring people to be parents. There's no Darwinian excuse for being shitty to other people. Just be good.