NYPD shot four people - including two bystanders one who is in critical condition - and another cop over a $2.90 fare.
nbcnewyork.com
Police opened fire on a subway platform in Brooklyn during a confrontation with an alleged fare-beater, striking the man cops said was armed with a knife, two straphangers caught in the fray, and one of the firing officers, NYPD officials said Sunday.
One of those two passengers hit by the cops' bullets, a 49-year-old man, was hospitalized in critical condition after he was hit struck in the head, according to the NYPD.
The two officers who opened fire were assigned to patrol the Sutter Avenue subway stop in the 73rd precinct when they spotted a man skip the station turnstile and walk through an open gate toward the train platform, Chief of Department Jeffrey Maddrey explained at an evening press conference from Brookdale Hospital.
Ahh yes. Nothing like killing a perp and a few bystanders for a few dollars' worth of fare. USA! USA!
I think if people had even more guns this could have been avoided. What if there was a six year old with a 22 there to respond to the gunshots with some of his own? maybe less people would be dead.
Guns make everyone way safer. We need to start providing them in utero.
How dare you politicize gun violence while a police officer is injured!
You mean the one that shot the other people? Officer mental health is important! Someone think of the shooter!!
Take the guns from the police and give them to the embryos. I think you're on to something here.
Right, or the bystander that got shot in the head could have returned fire, if only he were armed
What if the guns got guns
Why stop at guns? Everyone should have access to portable WMDs to keep the world safe.
Hey, we have to draw the line somewhere. Let's stop at a gigaton.
I think it’s also the responsible thing to limit our young people to the kiloton range until they are 21.
Abortions are prebirth, so should guns
This has been an ongoing problem in the city. Fuckin Mayor Officer Landlord has been dumping millions into multiple cops sitting on platforms, on their phones, watching for people jumping the 2.90 fare. Which they just raised from 2.70. They’re more than spending what they’re hypothetically losing on fare jumpers. Neoliberal capitalist bullshit in action.
Meanwhile in Albuquerque we've made buses free because the fare infrastructure costs more than to run the buses.
They stopped him for a few dollars' worth of fare.
They shot him for charging at them with a knife.
We’ll see if that story pans out, I’m sure the body cam footage is coming any minute…
The statement by the Department Chief literally references that there is body cam footage, that is the source of information for the statement.
No no no. They mean the footage being released for public scrutiny. The police have lied about the body camera footage before.
Where is this knife charge mentioned?
He was charging... away... with his knife...
it was the next sentence from what you copied lol
So this guy charged at them, then got tased and then got on a train car and got away... right
Was he on the limitless pill maybe? Maybe that's secretly why they chased after him so hard?
bro, what? did you even read the article? they shot him? he didn't get away?
they shot him when he was running away from them?
I know it’s like that by headline, but they repeatedly tried to subdue him and eventually he charged at them with a knife after having said “I’ll kill you”. I don’t know I would hesitate to stop him without my gun if he suddenly ran at me with a knife. I’m just thinking survival, instinctively, and not about bystanders around me in that moment.
Kind of fair point for yourself.
However I expect more of a trained professional who has repeated firarms training. They should be sesitized to controlling their direction of fire even in an emergency.
It really is bizarre how many people seem to just accept lower standards for police than for random Joe gun owner off the street. It’s not confusing though; it’s just another facet of the great team sport of society for many people.
If we’re supposed to value and respect our police, maybe we should actually expect good things from them!
That's not even the point. The training should have taught them how to de-escalate the situation, or even let it go. They transformed a 3$ fare skipped into a massacre, how's that normal?
It's 3$, if he has a knife, just let him go, it's not worth the risk. You'll track him down later and get him without killing him, passerbys and other cops.
You don't need to drop a nuke because there's a pickpocketer somewhere in the city
Ok, so these people are too incompetent to win a 4v1 against an untrained opponent? Is this better somehow?
If a guy doesn't pay $3, has a knife and threatens the police -> mental problem. The answer isn't shooting but handling the situation and deescalating.
They shot because the guy charged at them with a knife, not because of the fare. OP’s thread title is deliberately misleading, in a desperate attempt to twist this into ACAB fuel.
Any bystander injuries are to be blamed on the aggressor Mr. Knifey.
The knife that mysteriously doesn't show up on any footage and couldn't be located after the fact?
I know better than to believe police lies. It's all they do. ACAB, no exceptions.
Especially the NYPD
There's a still image of the police body cam here which shows the knife.
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/nypd-shooting-sutter-ave-subway-station-brooklyn/
Literally knife to gun fight. (Edit: allegedly, no video [yet])
Poor guy. Wish he could’ve been treated instead of killed. Wonder if here in the US we could put mancatchers/catch poles to good use:
An example of someone ostensibly suffering a mental health crisis eventually being subdued by a large number of responders with said poles.
They chased someone into a train over 3 dollars. There is now hundreds of thousands of dollars of medical bills, possibly over a million. Because someone "stole" a 3 dollar fare.
How the police react to stuff is absolutely up for debate. This is why we stopped doing car chases.
If someone runs a red light, and a cop tries to pull them over to give them a ticket, and instead the guy jumps out of the car and tries to attack the cop with a knife and gets shot in self-defense, it is absolutely not accurate to frame that as "cop shot that guy for running a red light".
But this is what exactly the OP is trying to do. And that's bullshit.
Police don't chase for red lights anymore specifically because the damage car chases were doing was out of line with the civil infraction.
Until cops prove themselves trustworthy, I will assume they're lying. They have a long way to go.
NYPD goes HARD on toll jumpers, but there's virtually zero enforcement on traffic and cars. Everywhere I go I see assholes with illegally modified vehicles, degenerates speeding down shoulders and medians, motorcycles on crowded sidewalks and pedestrian paths, and too many drunk drivers to count. There are so many cases where one pig parked on the shoulder during rush hour would fund the city budget for a year.
Instead we get whole families of pigs loitering by the turnstiles
The NYPD also loves to go after jaywalkers and vagrants, particularly when they're interfering with the flow of street traffic.
Cars are King, baby.
Who drives and who uses the subway.
That's your answer.
Clearly that's where the money is. $2.90 goes hard
Apparently we're calling commuters "straphangers" now too. I wonder if the NYPD will shoot at speeding wheelgrippers next.
I was wondering what that word meant. Thanks for the context.
The reason is the same reason why bullies go after vulnerable and/or isolated kids. The type of person who has a car and has the money and means to illegally modify it is also the type of person who would give the police absolute hell if they so much as dared to look at them the wrong way. A person jumping a small toll is someone who is poor and will never attract the sympathies of any judge who will treat them very harshly.
Yeah I just can't help but think of all that sweet sweet money that we absolutely used to get by charging the rich assholes being bad with their fancy toy cars to the point of it being the main funding force for police for decades and wonder....
Why not take?
I want that. I really do. The major problem is that throughout most of history the wealthy have always gotten away with the most incredibly blatant shit and the general attitude of the legal system has been to comfort the comfortable and grieve the aggrieved. The times where the people on the top got their comeuppance and where the wealthy were forced to comply with some level of propriety towards the average person are both rare and brief.
In the US, the New Deal era was by far the most prosperous era in US history, and many of the wealthy people HATED it. The whole modern anti-politics as politics started shortly after WW2 as a response to the whole thing. The video I linked has more information on it... and it is far from the whole story. What I am saying is that it is really fucked just how powerful the propaganda apparatus of capitalism has grown. This isn't to say that it was somehow unbiased in the past. Prior to WW2 the liberal media basically aided fascists gain power even when fascists were killing many of the same liberal journalists and shutting down their newspapers.
It isn't impossible. It is just fucked is what I am saying, and things will get a lot worse before things get better... and the sad reality is any recovery will be very brief since that is the way how humans work.
Fuck cars!
Once I was in NYC and saw a little pack of motorcycles doing wheelies and running red lights.
Sounds like a lovely Tuesday afternoon
NYPD: The dumbest kid from every high school on Long Island.
I'm in Suffolk and can confirm. Kid got a 680/2400 on the SAT. Not that the SAT is a great intelligence test but damn.
Man, you get a 600 for just writing your name yikes
photo source
Based
They used more money in ammunition than the amount of money the shootout started over!
Just having them there on detail probably costs more than they recover from fare evaders.
Legitimately. It’s not even a joke. Millions have been spent on defending 100k in fare evasion.
The NYPD budget is in the ballpark of 11 billion
Evidence of why the "Chris Rock solves gun crime" strategy won't work.
Make bullets cost $5000 a piece!
A corp strats
Proposed reform measure: Just like teachers have to buy classroom supplies out-of-pocket, have police officers buy their own ammo.
They shot because the guy charged at them with a knife, not because of the fare. OP's thread title is deliberately misleading, in a desperate attempt to twist this into ACAB fuel.
Unless you have evidence of that, stop spreading it.
Your prejudiced assumptions do not trump the evidence we have. The knife is on body cam.
Until they release the body cam footage, all we have is a blurry photo of someone on the ground holding a knife. As nice as that image is, it does nothing to support the claim that they were "charged at with a knife" and that is the claim people are holding you to task over (and assuming that is true, just allowing this situation to escalate to that point was inexcusably incompetent). The NYPD has been caught intentionally misleading the public with bodycam footage many times before and thus lack the credibility to be believed without evidence, especially when they are being this cagey over releasing the footage. This may very well have been the case, but until they prove it we can't reasonably take them at their word and you damn well know it.
They have a picture of a knife
That they cannot produce.
The police lie. We've caught them lying so many times now that they don't get the benefit of the doubt much less some higher credibility.
“We will be working through the timeline of today, but make no mistake, the events that occurred on the Sutter Avenue station platform are the results of an armed perpetrator who was confronted by our officers doing the job we asked them to do," Donlon said.
Could we maybe not ask police officers to escalate minor and petty conflicts all the way up to shooting everyone in the immediate vicinity?
Ah, so we should pursue this 'we' who are asking cops to kill innocent people. Thanks, Donlon!
"armed perpetrator" ah, so any american that commits a crime, then?
NYPD pays $126,000 annual salary, that's about $60 an hour or $1 a minute, 4 cops respond to the fair jumper, if they spent more than 45 seconds on this it costs the city more than the fair was worth.
The point is not how much it costs.
The point is that a poor person needs punishment, and if they're lucky, they might get to shoot somebody.
No way would I do that job at that pay in NYC, especially as long as pretty much any idiot in the USA can own a gun.
Schrodingers pig.
The cop shot an innocent bystander in the head but also shot another cop. Until trial, he is both a bad guy with a gun and a good guy with a gun.
Imagine the 2 by standards suing the department getting and 6 million dollars. Because shooting a guy for jumping a turn style worth 2.90.
This is a joke they need to take that money out of the police officers pension.
If they start doing that, and only that, no police officer will ever see a pension ever again within a month
Start giving police officers actual training. You know, teach them how to deescalate, how to actually use a gun (because they don't even know that part) but also teach them to let go.
High speed chases may look cool but they endanger the innocent until found guilty suspect and hundreds of innocent bastards, none of those chases are worth it. Let them go, catch them later safely using actual police investigation work.
Guns may look cool but they kill at a distance and are a high risk for all bystanders, they should be a last resort, not a first resort.
Also,mgive police officers a mandatory psychological evaluation, filter out the psychopaths and the racists. Those you don't want in a force that needs to protect and serve.
A lot more improvements can be and should be made, but you get the picture
Seems like it's a whole lot of not my problem.
Garnish their wages too. Fuck these fucking bastard pigs.
qualified immunity says there's no specific law or statute saying you can't fire indiscriminately into a crowd of people whilst attempting to "apprehend" someone suspected of not paying their $2.90 subway fare.... so they'll be let off with a warning and a nice long paid vacation. Maybe the victims will get some token amount...
Oh wait, you didn't even mention the cops getting punished, I guess it's just a given at this point that they won't be. We see a headline these days about cops shooting innocent people and we can't suspend disbelief long enough to even imagine the cops getting punished.
America!
Not only that, the fare skipper will be charged with all the bloodshed.
They would never win. The police were just doing their jobs after all. So what if a couple of innocent people get shot? After all, just because they are currently innocent, doesn't mean they aren't future criminals. So really, by shooting them they make it less likely that they'll commit future crimes!
People win suits against the police all the time. It's just the police rarely face consequences for it, especially as an institution.
It also exceptionally rare that police officers themselves get prosecuted. Chauvin's conviction was a surprising twist as such things almost never happen. This is one situation where they threw one of their own under the bus to placate the public while the whole situation actually gets worse.
Like ever since BLM got started, the rate of police shootings have only gone up, and funding has increased AND there are far more laws protecting police than before. In many states it is becoming increasingly illegal to film police officers for any reason. So they might have thrown Chauvin under the bus, but they might make it illegal to film cops in his area, so future Chauvins who get filmed will have nothing to fear, as they will arrest the person filming them and charge them, and since the film obtained is criminal it will be dismissed as evidence.
This obviously has in part to do with the toxic American gun culture and it's corrupt and untrained police, but alsonwoth it's misguided need for what it thinks is justice, and revenge for real or imagined crimes.
Shoplift something small? In you go with hardened criminals to punish punish punish, fuck you for daring to do that! No rehabilitation, just punish
A lot of Americans complain about low prison sentences in Europe, not understanding that the focus there is on actually solving the problem of crime, instead of revenge, revenge, revenge.
It makes more sense if you start from the premise that there are "good people" and "bad people", and bad people need to be punished to protect good people. The people who do the protections--like Joe Arpaio--can do no wrong. Even if they seem to do bad things, that's just in the service of protecting good people.
This premise is bullshit, but everything follows from there.
The problem is rooted in prison spending moving from a social cost to a private revenue stream.
It's the classic Cobra Effect of economics. Monetizing the solution to a problem creates an incentive to increase the instances of said problem.
In this case, we have criminalized the free use of public transportation in order to justify more spending on policing.
it seems like you are assuming it wasnt always this way. but perhaps this has always been the function of prison. CIP: Australia
Yes! I can't tell you how many arguments I've had with people who genuinely think that burglars deserve to be shot and killed.
The same thing in Canada. Despite the reputation of Canadians being polite wusses by Americans the Canadian legal system is much harsher than the American system.
Why hasn't the city released the full body cam footage?
Probably because there was no knife in the footage.
Comments like these are all over the thread...
There's a still image of the police body cam footage here which shows the knife: https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/nypd-shooting-sutter-ave-subway-station-brooklyn/
Sorry but I'm not going to take the city or cops at their word because we've seen multiple similar incidents in the past where they spun their story then when forced to release the footage it's a completely different story.
I'm responding to a comment that said there was no knife in the footage.
I linked a still of the footage showing a knife.
But we know whether there was a knife or not isn't what you or most people on Lemmy care about. You don't like cops so therefore they were wrong. Facts be damned.
You're right that a still image of a knife matters little to me, I understand you were responding to a post specifically about a knife being present, and I'm adding that whether a knife is present or not doesn't change the fact that the city and police are releasing statements and withholding evidence to manipulate public opinion. Why should I have to trust the cops at all if there is video evidence of the events that I can use to form my own judgements from? Why hide the facts from public view?
Fair enough. However, they should release the footage regardless. Especially since 4 people got shot, 2 of which were bystanders, and that this was over a cheap fare. Cops are pretty untrustworthy.
100% agree.
Since when are stills taken from video that clear? Especially during a scuffle, and with questionable lighting... Something doesn't add up.
There's no arguing with you if there's no sources you believe.
You could say the same if I linked the whole damn video.
While they're being excessively conspiratorial (For fuck's sake, stills from an uncompressed video are that clear), that image doesn't tell us anything. We don't know who the person in that image even was, and it could just as easily have been a bystander, the alleged fare jumper or the cop who got shot that was wearing plain clothes. They could easily answer this question by just releasing the bodycam footage, but they haven't done that, and time and time again we've seen the NYPD refuse to release any of the footage except some juicy still images to cover up gross misconduct of an officer. Personally I doubt this is the case, but the time when I could blindly accept that has long passed.
The comment I responded to says,
So, I provided a still of the footage showing a knife.
Sure, we don't know for sure who it is but I have a pretty good guess.
I too await the full footage.
In the most pedantic and exacting way, you might be right!
The topic here (and my original point) is that the image you've linked doesn't tell us anything except that the NYPD have claimed it's a still from the bodycam footage. We don't have any of the context it occurs within, so while yes that is an image of a knife, we don't actually know that it's a still taken from bodycam footage of the incident. The original poster's point was that at the time we didn't (and as of writing, still don't) have any evidence that they aren't just making shit up. We still don't. And as much as I'd love for the NYPD not to be pulling the same bullshit they always always try to pull, we have no reason to believe that right now. They have earned zero of the credibility you're affording them.
And, really, a personal appeal: Is it a reasonable use of your time to try and nickle-and-dime the issue until an incident where the NYPD escalated a $2.90 situation to the point that two innocent bystanders were shot somehow becomes palatable? Who cares if he had a knife, even according to them he did not pose a present threat until he was provoked. The NYPD is a goddamn army with the most advanced surveillance system in the entire world and that dude was on a train. They absolutely could have just mailed the ticket to his house like they do with 90% of farejumpers, or if they wanted to be bastards, they could have followed him via surveillance, isolated and then arrested him safely elsewhere. They do that all the time in other cities. Engaging a potentially violent subject on a fucking subway train is beyond inexcusable no matter what the guy did, because while he's a shithead for (in all likelihood) trying to stab the cops, the cops should not have allowed themselves to be in that situation in the first place. It's basic shit, volunteers at comic-con can do it, why can't these inept SOBs?
This is an age old American tradition of shooting people who try to stow on train cars. There is an image in American culture of the freighthopping hobo who is trying to find a better place to live and work despite not having a dime to his name. Of course in reality many people have been shot for doing that. Property and a few dollars is worth much, much more than a poor person's life.
Can we just go back to having a legitimate conductor who also has a protected union job that is properly staffed so that they can do occasional walks through the train to be able to offer ticketing services that allow for rapid and mass transit for the masses that connect us in a way that allows for fucking easy travel.
Please! Or can we at least stop treating trains like an old existing extension of the singularly for profit monopolies paid by the government they were and just straight up have been allowed to become again!
Not even just conductors, these trains need staff period. One of the things about crime in general is that people are less likely to do it if they feel like the area presents itself as safe. Even things down to cleanliness, lighting, staff presence, and noise level will affect crime.
It seems like the city just doesn’t care at all about their transit because it’s extremely dirty, staff are basically nonexistent, the stations are loud and have no boundaries, and every part of them seems to be decaying infrastructure. Japan knows this well, your passengers will reflect the expectations you put upon them by their environment and staff.
This is like an unfunny onion article. The fact that there can be civilian casualties in NYPDs war on fare jumpers is just shameful. It's not for the money. They spend $150 million a year to recover $100k. Beyond an embarrassment.
I mean according to the article, technically they just tried to stop him over the $2.90 fare.
Then because of that he threatened to kill them and they realized he had a knife so they tasered him.
Then when that didn't work and he ran at them with the knife they opened fire.
Multiple people are still dead because they brought guns into a disagreement over $2.90, but the headline implies a lot more unreasonableness on the individual cops' parts as opposed to the overall policy.
They claim he made a threat. The article failed to print his side of the story for some curious reason. It isn't printing any testimony from the bystanders, either.
Cops will often lie about the danger of a suspect in order to justify elevating their use-of-force. That said, they weren't that concerned by his unreasonableness when they deployed tasers into the crowd first. They didn't switch to guns until they realized the tasers weren't going to work.
Fair enough, supposedly they were wearing body cams so hopefully some of what actually happened can be answered objectively, I'm just pointing out what the article said. If he didn't make a threat or have a knife, then tasering him is a wild escalation, it's just that if he did, then the police can't really just let him get on a train.
Again, assuming what the article says is true, which is a big assumption, it's not that crazy to taser a guy who just got onto a train with a knife and threatened to you. At that point you're looking at a potential mass stabbing incident if you do nothing.
Again, who knows, maybe the cops are blowing his behaviour wildly out of proportion, I'm just saying that, based on the article, it sounds like he wasn't just gunned down for jumping a turnstile.
If they had, three people would have avoided bullet wounds and one of them wouldn't be in the ER right now.
If you've ever ridden the subway in NYC, particularly during rush hour, the idea of firing a taser into a train full of people is absolutely crazy.
And maybe a bunch of people would have been stabbed by the guy with a knife who just threatened to kill someone.
Again, they could be lying about the knife and the threat, but if he did have a knife and just threaten to kill someone it would be absolutely crazy to let him get on a subway train full of people.
Might as well just shoot them instead
Oooh what a cool edge lord. You've definitely thought this through.
The public praises the police when they stand around and let an armed man be well enough alone in a group of civilians! Everyone loves it when police do that right?
Like Jesus fucking Christ, what would you do? Leave a guy with a knife getting onto a crowded train and have two dozen people stabbed? It is naiive to think that there was a good outcome possible once you start making police bust fare skipping, but it is also absurdly naiive to think that the police can let a man with a knife get onto a New York train with just a 'hey, try not to stab anyone'.
And maybe aliens would have landed and eaten us all!
At which point the NYPD will hide because that's scary
I mean, this is arguably what them not hiding looks like.
Joe Lozito would probably have something to say about cops willingness to let a crazed knife wielding man aboard a train...
https://nypost.com/2013/01/27/city-says-cops-had-no-duty-to-protect-subway-hero-who-subdued-killer/
Is the version of what's the killers are saying. I'll believe it when I see the camera footage. Good thing they have bodycams, so they can instantly prove their story.
Can't we just make the Subway so cheap that it's not worth jumping the toll? Or make it so low income people get free fares.
We could spend millions of dollars on making fares cheaper for people, but have you considered we can instead give that money to the police so they can prevent mere thousands of dollars in free rides?
Thousands? Maybe closer to hundreds.
The actual answer is likely under 15
Most americans believe the entire point of transit is to sort people who can afford it from people who cant.
If mass transit is affordable for all it is literally considered a threat to these pathetic people who would means test their own kids before they gave them food and shelter if it was socially acceptable.
I was in NYC recently and the amount of wealthier people who just ubered everywhere (or actually just demanded to own a car and drive themselves in the least car friendly place IN THE US) with no consideration for ever using the subway underneath their feet was pretty disgusting and appalling especially coming from somewhere without magic train tunnels underneath my feet that run 24/7....
Notice all of these narratives run essentially in parallel with a nebulous fear of the subway being stoked by Eric Adams and centrists, they provide a convenient impulse to rationalize taking the easy way out and clogging the streets with another useless car. Kind of like convincing yourself as a kid not to do a chore in the basement because the basement is scaryyyy, I mean look at this video from somebody in another basement experiencing a freak scary incident that would likely never ever happen to me!!!!
I live somewhere with free bus transit in the US, and it is shocking how different it feels and yet also how many successful people around me with working cars just categorically ignore the use or possibility of using busses. The US is really really deeply fucked on this point and it makes me feel awful for the rest of the planet having to deal with our horrendous carbon footprints.
New York City has so much potential, but it is utterly ruined by rich conservative money suffocating the city in a chokehold.
I hate the US so much sigh
Ahh... I see you have met my dad, who decided only after I called him after having failed my suicide attempt to offer to take me back in after having kicked me out promptly at 18 and then only housed me for 2 months before driving me out to a random street corner and dropping me off saying he had lifted me back up enough for me to handle my own live because I was ruining his "vibe" while having a 3 bedroom house and a job that makes more than half a million a year.
A man who wouldn't let me get a drivers license because I wasn't allowed to touch one of his cars and needed to buy one on my own and figure out how to do it by 16 despite his first 3 cars being bought for him by his parents after he wrecked each previous one.
Americans are the worst culture. Truly fucking despicable what they think is sane. You only get to buy how you want to be treated and the threshold for the floor of basic human dignity is more than most of us can afford.
Seriously, when people say it is a distraction to blame generations and focus hatred on boomers I think it is a good reminder to keep the eye on the ball of extreme wealth inequality, but I think there is a really weird nut of truth in that generational hate in that wealthy, successful US boomers of a certain type really did completely abandon the "social contract" so to speak of passing the world on to their kids. Which wouldn't be that weird if society was always like it, and I am sure the "upper middle class kids" of every generation has felt this way to a certain extent, but it really feels like wealthy boomers just foreclosed the future of... literally everybody and when you meet boomers like your dad or one of my parents or countless other wealthy boomers I have met it really becomes far more "comic book" evil than it is reasonable to assume with some of these sad losers. There is no reason for the cruelty, and for the severance of resources and support other than a bunch of cynical political ideologies that amounted to barely anything more than lobotimizing a father's capacity to actually empathize with their child about basic life needs. It is like the condescending judgement of some wealthy boomer parents cancerously grew into a deep seated belief that their kids don't belong to be in the same economic class as they do, whether those wealthy boomers will consciously acknowledge it or not. I mean... not the worst problem to have, I am just pointing out how pathetic and sad US culture really is among superficially "successful" families.
As someone from the US I wholeheartedly agree but I also want to qualify this a bit.
US culture is the worst culture given how rich it is. You might go to another culture with a HELL of a lot less money in the society/less GDP (..because it has been extracted by countries like the US but different conversation) and be able to find aspects of that culture that are way worse... but more than any other country on earth the US has been able to choose the world it wants to exist in instead of being existentially forced to accept the terms set out by more powerful countries, and holy shit what the US has done with that is not only dumb it is catastrophic.
The US is the richest country on earth, we could be treating each other like royalty, we could be saying "it is unamerican to let homeless americans starve!!" and just start giving people housing and food for free, we could do whatever the fuck we want with all of our incredible amount of power and just ignore the consequences for the rest of the world... but instead not only do we ignore the consequences of our life style on the rest of the world (again, utterly catastrophic in terms of carbon footprint, ecological impact and just plain wastefulness) we ignore the consequences of our life style on our own damn selves, our family, our kids, our parents, our neighbors and our friends.
Like yeah I know I am not saying anything original but damn I just feel like it needs to be said over and over again, the US is a very shameful place in the sense that the amount of unnecessary suffering here is quite extreme (again, not making claims about absolute suffering.. not that it is ever helpful too beyond pointing out big disparities of privilege).
Hey man, suicide is no joke. I hope you found the right help to combat your thoughts and emotions. Just remember that us people here on the internet will miss you if you're gone.
People love to point at crime numbers on the subway but ignore the percentages, like yeah there's (making shit up , not actual numbers) 15 crimes a day but its NEW YORK CITY thats out of 50,000 rides or some shit. I did the actual math once and it was like 0.005% chance of a crime on the NYC subway, beats the hell out of auto numbers.
Agreed, did you know the NYC subway system moves about the same order of magnitude per day as the entire continental US air travel networks does. All those planes flying back and forth between countless different airports... the subway beneath NYC moves more people.
I think this statistic both puts into context the incredible order of magnitude power of subways for mass transit, and also helps put in perspective how dangerous they really are based on scary content uploading that is happening within a single subway car.... you gotta zoom your brain out to see the sea of perfectly boring subway cars transporting people to work and back every single day.
That sounds nuts but having been there I wouldn't be terribly surprised. I think the crazy part is (living in a bible belt rural city surrounded by pro-car everything and the various internet fearmongers) how mundane it all feels even at it's peaks. Just a bunch of fucking people getting where they're going. I've never understood the allure of sitting in gridlock for over an hour over just sharing space with a bunch of other boring normal assholes for 30 minutes (or whatever.)
My best friends are very pro car and liberal in that "sure better public transit is needed but 'I'd' never use it it doesn't work for me cause XYZ" sorta way. I dragged them on an amtrak to DC, and took em on the subway up to our hotel and they're just like "......oh that was chill." Yeah, just fuckin people getting where they're going it's not a bath salt zombie apocalypse down here.
I live in Taipei and the subway system is amazing. There is literally no crime on the MRT system here.
So less crime is possible. The USA needs to invest into the social services like we do here to get lower crime.
Imagine if we had to pay money to use elevators
give it time
I think a better example is if we had to pay money for Fire Services.
"Ohhhh shit son, your apartment is on fire. It will cost you um.... Tree fiddy to put it out. It would be a shame if your family dies if you can't afford our services. " - Trump Branded Firefighters, probably
With the settlement money they are about to get ripped up for I'm sure they could.
Such a reaction is insane, in other countries they would be prosecuted, right?
In other countries they'd just put in fare gates you couldn't jump.
I am waiting for former cop PR man Adams' defense of the cops with bated breath.
It sounds like the guy had a knife and threatened to use it. It also sounds like the cops tried to taze the guy first, but it didn't work.
We can argue whether the cops really needed to shoot the guy. But they weren't shooting at a fare evader, they were shooting at a guy with a knife who also happened to jump the turnstile.
I'd argue that the real problem is that the cops didn't know how to de-escalate the situation without shooting. It's like the tazer was their only "non-lethal" option, and when that didn't work, they panicked. (I could also believe that they were simply incompetent, and couldn't work the tazer properly.)
Do we actually know if he had a knife? Initial reporting was that the police knew he had a knife because he refused to take his hands out of his pockets. While he did threaten them, it was contingent upon them continuing to follow them. He did not actually attack them until after multiple officers attempted to tase him. Furthermore, so what if he had a knife? As far as we're aware, he's got a second amendment right to keep and bear arms. Being armed isn't an excuse to be killed by cops because you are generally explicitly allowed to be armed.
All in all:
he was killed(this seems to have been erroneously reported earlier. He is now reportedly in critical condition), an officer and 2 bystanders were woundedWhile that is textbook escalation, it really doesn't seem like they shot him cause he had a knife. They shot him (and 3 others) cause he didn't care about their authority and they couldn't let the guy that was already on the train go. And all that came about because he tried to skip a fare that costs around the same amount as the bullets fired.
The guy only threatened to use the knife after they stopped him for turnstile jumping. If the New York subway didn't have turnstiles (the L.A. subway doesn't), most people would still pay their fares. Most people understand that their fares keep the trains running. There was no need for this. At all.
I should say that there are transit cops that check tickets in L.A. If you don't have one, all they do is escort you out of the station. And this is the LAPD we're talking about.
Fares make up for about 10% of operating expenses for our trains. User-fees promote a dangerous need to balance yesterday's costs with today's availability, which is ultimately self-defeating.
The LA subway has turnstiles. Most people don’t pay. I’d watch maybe 2/3rds of people skip payment by using the wheelchair/bike turnstile. They would do it in front of cops.
They are starting to enforce fares again though.
If they have turnstiles, that is something they added since I lived there a decade ago.
They have the simple waste-high turnstile at every subway stop. At above-ground locations they don’t have these. They have been there for 15 years or longer.
There are no full height “man trap” turnstiles if that’s what you’re talking about.
I took the train from NoHo to downtown or Long Beach all the time and I do not remember turnstiles. In fact, I remember wondering where they were the first time I did it.
Noho as of this summer now requires you to tap to unlock the turnstile to exit too. They are expanding this to other red/B line stops.
DTLA 7th/Fig has definitely always had turnstiles.
Long Beach has not had turnstiles.
When he got there the conductor told him "one more nickel," Charlie couldn't get off of that train
The first step to "escorting you out of the station" is stopping you, is it not?
My whole point is that the cops didn't get belligerent until he pulled the knife. It also sounds like he might have boarded a train with the knife out, too. (It was the L train, though, I'm sure the riders have seen worse.)
They didn't start shooting because he jumped the turnstile. I bet if he didn't have a knife they would have just wrote him a ticket and made him leave.
You dont think your LA cops would have treated their fare evader a bit differently if he pulled a knife?
Yes, stopping you to say, "can I see your ticket?" If the person without a ticket runs, where are they going to run to? Back on the train that just left? They can't do that. Out of the station? That's where they were going to be taken anyway. It's not worth the cops' time in L.A. like it apparently is in New York.
Again, this shit doesn't happen there.
But it sounds like the guy said "I'm gonna kill you if you don't stop following me", then hopped on the train with the knife out. You think the cops in LA would have let him do that?
You show me when this sort of situation has ever happened in L.A.
Because believe me, there are plenty of crazies with knives in L.A. too.
You know they lie to cover their own asses, right?
Yes, but this time their body cams seem to have worked. Amazing how that happens when it shows things that can justify the cop's story?
And yet they didn't release the footage. Either there's no knife or the behavior of the police was outrageously incompetent. If they were justified they'd be tripping over themselves to show it.
It only happened yesterday, if the footage backs up the cop's story it will get released eventually.
Big IF
So it won't?
Is that true? Is it relevant? Idk. But it's in the article.
It's as relevant as Kyle Rittenhouse murdering a registered sex offender.
In both cases, there is no possible way the person firing the gun could have known that.
Hey now, when Kyle Rittenhouse crossed state lines to take pot-shots into a crowd of protesters, he paid every toll and observed every traffic ordinance. How can you possibly compare Rittenhouse to this turnstile jumping barbarian?
I was comparing Rittenhouse to the cops. Do keep up.
How much would this criminal get away with?
Roughly $3.00.
The only message I got was cops are unhinged.
"$3 is more important than innocent lives. We must set an example."
Our system of regulation has become dysfunctional.
Our police system turns human beings into violence machines. If our police system creates behavior like this from the people closest to it then that system is broken.
The officers are doing what humans do when given too much raw force.
Change the system and the officers will change with it.
Meanwhile corporations steal billions through white collar crime and the police do nothing. Nearly all blue collar crime is due to poverty and white collar crime creates more poverty. If police really wanted to stop crime they'd be pouring over corporations accounting to find the stolen money.
Sounds like dirty authoritarian big government communism to me.
Well it’s obvious there’s none of that in New York so they’re stuck chasing $3 fare dodging
Are the NYPD still carrying guns with a 12 pound trigger pull? Why can't they aim for shit?
How incompetent do you have to be to shoot a bystander?
When aiming into a crowd of people? You'd have to be an exceptional marksman to hit your target. Of course, there's the question of why you're firing into a crowd to begin with.
that was my question
NYPD incompetent.
What I want to understand is how the cops shot themselves... were they facing each other with the perp in between them?
most cops are idiots, that is probably why.
I know the amount in this situation is ridiculously low... but is there an acceptable amount where shooting would have been justified? How much money should it take for a cop to be able to open fire on a suspect? $50? $100? $1000? 10,000? 1,000,000? What's the cut-off?
Broadly speaking, the police shouldn't be using lethal force unless someone's life is at risk.
But that gets us to the "we think he might have had a knife" excuse, which is just taken at face value as Carte Blanche to do as thou wilt.
The escalation of force from "jump a turnstile" to "four police trying to surround and tase the suspect" is more tied back to the $2.90 cost. Had they simply shouted after the guy as he fled, nobody would be in the hospital right now. Instead, they went Commando Mode, and bystanders paid the price.
You are suggesting the death penalty for theft. No.
I'm not suggesting it, the post title is suggesting it. They mention the $2.90 fare, as if to show what a pitifully low amount of money they were killed over, which suggests that had it been over a more reasonable sum of money, maybe the shooting would've been more understandable. Maybe had it been in the process of stealing a $100 million Van Gogh it would've been different.
It's to highlight the idea that the law is more important to protect than the people.
Nothing? Money doesn't need protection, people do.
1,000 dollars is generally grand theft, a felony, and thus liable to the fleeing felon rule in some states.
If you mean morally, then no amount is worth killing over as long as there's a robust safety net in place. In olden times losing money to thieves could mean literally starving. At which point it's you versus them. In modern times there's not really that friction for most of us.
Another mass shooting
Naturally, follow the rules, or the cops start shooting /s
What the hell, I've NEVER heard or read this word in my entire life.
I guess that might explain part of that... but I'm seeing consisntent uses from merriam webster's recent examples on the web for the word.
Strangely enough there is a military alternative definition:
source
I associate the word “straphanger” with tabloid media. They have some words that they really like. It doesn’t really even make sense for NYC Because the subway doesn’t have straps.
Trust Hollywood to get it wrong. In the military the term strap hangars can be derogatory, but it's not any better for the person being held on to if it's used this way. It has to do with patronage systems and people not making it on their own merit. Rather than constantly trying to cull the hangars, the people with the straps are enabling them. "There goes Colonel Good Idea Fairy and his straphangers."
Alternatively in the Airborne community it means someone who isn't scheduled to jump but shows up anyways, hoping there's an extra parachute. This isn't derogatory because airborne soldiers have to jump every so often to maintain their status and pay, and life happens so there's no telling why they're in need of a jump. "We have five extra parachutes for straphangers."
I can't help but read the ph as an f, even though it is clearly a concatenation.
If you can't pay 2.9 dollars, then you must leave the city slowly on foot? You must plan the trip so you can get to the next McDonald's before dying of thirst.
But if you can't plan? Your options are cop shoots you, or you die?
We should ask Mr GPT to see what we should do. Mr GPT has been trained 🚆🚂 on millions of lifetimes worth of data. Surely he would figure it out? How do I know it's a he and not a she? I just assumed a dip shit like that would be a guy.
No; not hit struck. That's like TWICE!
The police didn't shoot him in the head. They were just doing their jobs as we asked them to and somehow that happened, total coincidence.
I hope the cop that got shot is hurting. Stupid fucks
Definitely sitting at home, getting paid leave and talking to his union provided lawyer and was told not to say anything by his coworkers who didn't arrest him for shooting multiple people.
At least it was underground, limiting how many people were in the line of fire, every few years they open fire at someone on a major avenue in Manhattan in a crowd. Good times. I'm so glad the democratic party destroyed Scott Stringer by bribing his ex-gf to falsely accuse him of being a sex pest to ensure the DNC's man, Eric Adams, the biggest shithead to ever come out of the NYPD, could become mayor-king of NYC, guaranteeing Guiliani-level daily police misconduct with impunity.
NYPD still haven't produced a knife from the scene.
Why anyone would believe a word out of any pigs mouth without seeing body cam footage is beyond me
This is obviously fucked up. But they are clearly intentionally downplaying that he pulled a knife when stopped. He wasn't shot for the fair lol
The subtitle: "NYPD brass said the alleged fare-beater had charged at the officers with a knife..."
Maybe your reading comprehension is indicated by your use of "He wasn’t shot for the fair [sic] lol".
Not sure reading comprehension is tied to typos on a mobile. I was referring to the title of the post. No need to be rude friend.
That or they are holding for evidence as cops seem to lie all the fucking time
Title is meant to make you believe the shooting is about the fare. That seems deliberate.
still worth shooting two innocent people? can't radio his description? was he "armed" or did he use it? huge distinction there. I'm always "armed" with my pocket knife, should I start dodging bullets? was he being pursued for a crime?
also, without video the cops are lying by default. can't trust a cop to do the right thing ever.
Would you pull it without being specifically asked to in a police encounter? Don't be obtuse. (Edit: And say you'll kill them)
I have no problem waiting for a video to decide on this one, personally. But the title is dogshit.
2nd edit: Here's another source which has a still of the video, showing the knife.
I conceal carry. Believe it or not, I would inform police that I'm carrying as soon as an encounter starts, tell them where it is on my person, and ask if they would like to see my CCW license. But I'm not a fucking idiot, so...
I agree with all your points, I just don't trust police at all. it's been repeatedly proven they will lie and jam you up, and they have too much power. their word means shit to me, video, or at least audio of it happening, even a legit witness, or they are lying off the bat.
I was even recently pulled over by a cop in an unmarked car saying I cut him off. he didn't pull me over until I flipped him off for blaring his horn at me. he reversed on the highway to follow me off the exit and still didn't put on lights, he was a road rager to me at that point and was ready to defend myself, I carry CCW also. he pulled up to my driver's side and yelled at me from the other lane, no indication at all it was a traffic stop, so I told him to fuck off, didn't care or know that he was police.
when he followed me into the parking lot, he finally put on lights. I got out recording, dashcam going as well. I repeatedly tell him if he's a real cop to get someone else there now, I didn't give him my id, just kept telling him to give me a ticket or fuck off. kept telling him he was butthurt over the middle finger, if I was really guilty of cutting him off, he should have pulled me over when I got in front of him, not after I flipped him off. I must have told him to fuck off and fuck your mom 10 times. I wasn't having any of his shit.
another unit arrives with a ticket book, and he lied on the ticket, put some charge that was "reckless driving" about not coming to a stop before entering a highway, which was complete bullshit. I go to court, present dashcam of me making a safe lane change with blinker and space, judge is like wtf is this charge? immediately dismissed it, literally 2 min from calling my name.
cop accosts me outside the courtroom and still tries to tell me I'm wrong, admitting that he gets run off the road all the time. he's a shitty driver, claims he didn't see my blinker (no dashcam on his vehicle of course) and really pulled me over for hurt feelings. fuck him.
point is, I would have had reckless driving on my record had I not defended myself over this shitty cop. before the court date, I was looking at the exact citation and was driving myself crazy trying to figure out how that applied to what actually happened. luckily the judge saw and it was just as confused when he read it out loud. I fucking hate cops if you can't tell.
This basically amounts to "you should care about Haitians eating pets because you like animals", it overlooks that the veracity of the claim is not established...
No, it's actually nothing like that at all because I don't believe that happens often at all.
Whereas people pulling guns and knives on others, cops included, happens all the damn time.
Problem is, the knife can't be found. So all we have are the polices word that there was a knife.
No, it’s not.
Sure is: "shot over a $2.90 fare" is literally a lie.
Yeah, they shot at him because he threatened them, but he was also not a threat to them and actively getting away from them
They then opened fire in a crowded area, and one of them managed to shoot the other in the armpit.
They also don't mention him brandishing the knife at any point, the article just says they were "made aware" of a knife, which could mean fucking anything.
"[Body cam footage] showed the man make a verbal threat to the officers. He told the cops, "I'm going to kill you if you don't stop following me," the chief said."
lmao, why the fuck you lyin?
Imagine being caught essentially stealing $3, and instead of just paying up, or accepting the punishment for the theft, your reaction is to threaten the lives of those who caught you.
Proof that you ACAB idiots will defend anything if it means talking shit about police, lol.
He broke the law and got caught, you're not supposed to be able to just walk away when that happens, lmao.
Shoulda sprinkled some crack on him, then they can shoot everybody, who can argue?
So you're against lying or?
Cops clearly did nothing wrong in shooting at a guy charging at them with a knife--anyone would be justified in doing so, cop or not. Bystander injuries are on the aggressor's hands.
Also:
Shhhhhhhhhhhocking!
Excited to see the NYPD press b charges on the turnstile jumper for the cop who shot the other cop.
USA is the only shit hole in the world where you can get shot for fare evasion.
No one got shot for fare evasion.
It's 100% justified to shoot someone who is coming at you with a knife, no matter who you are.
The country has barely measurable mental health care and social network. The dude that brandished the knife would probably have been somewhere else if these were in place. How many other countries have you heard of where this could have happened? Someone jumps turnstiles, they are unhinged and feel cornered by the pigs so they brandish a knife at them.
This regularly happens in the US and nowhere else, yet it's also the country that is unable to deal with it. Just need to have slightly more IQ than average to put 1+1 together.