As a queer person, extending the acronym past what is necessary feels like pandering in the best light, and purposely trying to bait ridicule in the worst. The whole point of LGBT was to include anyone on the spectrum that was gay or trans, and the Q was supposed to include anyone who considers themselves queer, even if they don't meed those parameters. I can understand wanting to include I because intersex people are often left out of the conversation, and I even understand A because there is a lot of debate even within the LGBTQ community itself as to whether asexuals are considered queer or not. But when you start incorporating numbers, symbols, or extending past 5 letters within the acronym, you are defeating the purpose of having an acronym, creating confusion, baiting ridicule, and even making people not explicitly represented in the acronym feel excluded.
And there is already a single, all encompassing, inclusive, one syllable word that describes the community and all who occupy it: "Queer." It's easier to say, remember, and hell, even type if you are typing LGBTQ past 5 letters. But because of it being appropriated and used as a slur, there are many even within the community who are even afraid to utter it, let alone identify with it. Which is a god damned shame there is nothing inherently wrong the word, cause even in its original meaning, it meant someone who was outside the norm or otherworldly, and in literature has been used to describe characters like Gandalf, and characters in Shakespeare.
It describes me without having to explain or justify how or why. It describes how I feel as a person, how others see me, how I interact and relate to others. Its an adjective that can be verbed and adverbed. It's sharp and provocative, yet also warm and natural, like a forest green. People who have adopted and embraced the word for themselves feel the love within the word, and can extend it to others. And even for those outside the community, those who are brave enough to use it when talking in our defense come off as more decisive and confrontational, than the person who thinks adding another letter or number to the acronym will make them seem more legitimate.
It's time we stop fearing our word. It's time we recognize the difference between queer as an insult, and queer as a description of who we are, and we need to extend that to people who are willing to talk about us and our struggles or come to our defense. The word is only as evil as we are willing to reject it, and I will be dead in the ground before I let our word be the domain of queerphobes and bigots.
edit: It's late and I'm going to bed. Apparently some people think I'm a self hating queer for thinking the acronym should be dropped for an all inclusive term, and so be it. It's late and I want to get some sleep. And a lot of the people making this argument I know haven't read past the first paragraph, much less to here. Anything clarification they could want can be found here and in my other posts here. Otherwise, if they are not going to put in the effort to read, I'm not going to put in the effort to respond.
edit 2: I wanted to make a separate inclusion because I have had a chance to sleep and cool off, and I wanted to address some of the more combative posts in my replies: I get it. We as a community suffer attacks constantly, even from within the community, so I understand why so many here are on guard and skeptical of my intentions. And I'll admit, my post probably could be better written. I'm not exactly the best at articulating my thoughts. But the point of my post is not to exclude anyone from the community, but rather embrace a word that includes everyone. I would like to hear counterpoints to my argument, because maybe what I need is a different perspective on the issue. I would love to hear from people who prefer the acronym, and why they feel it maybe more inclusive. I am a flawed human being with many faults. I grew up in a conservative background, and my life up to this point has been trying to unlearn a lot of that. But I did not write this with the intention of excluding or singling out anyone. Forgive me I have done so.
Indeed.. all extending the acronym does is give the Far Right ammo for their unfunny "Alphabet Cult" jokes
At some point ya just gotta say "Look if you're not straight and not cis or just think that may be the case. You're in the club"
i am really glad you took the time to put all of that into words. i, a queer person, agree completely.
I wish everyone was this rational
Extending the acronym to cover everyone is becoming ridiculous. I think we just need a word that covers all the bases rather than trying to shoe horn one more letter/number/symbol/wingding that's already becoming difficult to keep track of. It doesn't bring attention to any one group, nor does it help individual groups as a whole when you're summed up into a letter.
There's something in the back of my head telling me it's not an acronym, is it?
If it was it'd be pronounced ligbitikwitwo
You’re correct, it’s an initialism.
That's the word thanks!
It's an initialism
I mean, I don’t identify as queer and plenty of my friends don’t. One of my exes did and great for him but this just seems like the wrong argument. There likely just needs to be a technical, non-inflammatory term.
I’m glad you like it though.
The most all-encompassing term I've seen is sexual minority. Basically non-cis or non-straight
There's some argument over adopting the term GSM (Gender and Sexual Minorities) as an inoffensive general term.
I like it, even tho usually I include a "R" there for romantic minorities(eg people who might not be a sexual minority but are a romantic one) when discussing this with other people, but I guess it could be argued that they still fit into "sexual".
R or not, I like that it includes everyone without any identity being shoved into a letter or a "+" along with lots of others as if they're an afterthought, not as important as the ones that get to show up as their own letters.
I hate labels in general. I'm in the Q part (enby) and I'm completely fine with it, I don't need my own letter, nor do I need to identify with anything.
Can we apply this logic to the flag as well? I thought the rainbow of the pride flag was meant to represent diversity and cover all orientations…like how a rainbow spectrum of light literally covers all colours. Now specific groups are being added and people are finding ways to add another line to represent something. The flag is a mess.
I tend to think of the Progress flag as a product of the times, not as a replacement for the rainbow Pride flag. We added these additional signifiers specifically because those groups were under-represented or under particular attack, not because they aren't included in the Pride rainbow.
I know others do but I don't like the word queer. I say LGBT+.
My biggest qualm is a qualm I have with any acronym/abbreviation. If you're going to introduce a letter that is unknown to many, then define your term. Otherwise, I'm going to assume it's a typo, or I going to not recognize it.
All acronyms and abbreviations, or at least those that aren't commonplace, should be defined somewhere adjacent to their use, or else you are excluding people.
Speech/text is only useful if you're using it in a way that appropriately conveys a message to it's intended audience.
It is the intonation that matters more than anything else. The wording itself has very little meaning until it is meant as an insult or a compliment.
Can we make "gay" = happy again?
I had a teacher in highschool (04-08) whose name was B Gay. In his lifetime Gay want from "happy" to a slur.
Machine shop was the best because of him too
Glad you had a good teacher.
I've come to realize that whatever it is that causes people to have alternative sexual preferences, I've got a little bit of it. However, I'm heterosexual, so I don't really identify with the community. I could accept the queer label, though.
How to defeat a slur, take it as your own. It's simply as easy as that.
Growing up I was fat as fuck, people made fun of me all the time. One day I decided it was enough, I started making fun of myself for being fat, suddenly everyone left me alone because it no longer got the response they were trying to get.
Ignoring / getting angry is what they want, turn around and happily scream yeah I'm queer, ya looking for a good time? (For example) ya know what's gonna happen? Their gonna start stammering and come up with another way to bother you, and when you don't give in and don't show a reaction they will end up storming away angrily. Then you have something to laugh at for the rest of the day.
What the fuck do you think pride parades are for?
My grandfather got caught downtown Toronto in one and spent 2 hours throwing slurs. Ya think a single person in that parade cared?
spent 2 hours throwing slurs
Lmao "Grandpa how was your day?"
"Pretty good actually. I spent 2 hours shouting slurs at strangers"
Two spirit is a native cultural thing and I think acknowledging it is a good idea. It used to just be LGBT, why should we stop expanding inclusion the moment you find a word you're personally comfortable with?
LGBTQIAPDSMFC2..... at some point you've got to consider the cut off otherwise you might as well write out the whole alphabet.
Queer is good to me as there's a difference between "Ben is queer" and "Ben is a queer"
I liked the MOGAI acronym since by nature it includes all of them but Queer also works as well.
QUILTBAG gets pretty good coverage too. Easy to say and cute, too.
I mean going on your second point, I think it demonstrates the difference between a slur and a descriptor is how it's used as a word.
Like transgender is neutral term but we see it becoming a scare word by fascists recently by changing how its used in speech. Like "transgendered", "transgenderism" or "transing" (as a note, it's kinda scary how the first two no longer set off window's spellcheck). Basically turning trans as a state of being adjective into a verb makes it seem like an act you can do to someone or have happen to you.
Better question: What makes you think they are not included in LGBT or Queer? Also, I know the inclusion of two spirits within the LGBT acronym is contentious with many native Americans as well. It's why the pride flag with the native American feathers is frowned upon at many queer events.
If everyone is included in queer why be anything other than the Q community? What elevates some queerness to a place where it deserves recognition on its own and why is some queerness relegated to a bucket labelled "Miscellaneous"?
Need to keep backwards compatibility
Backwards Qompatibility
Crazy people recently adopted the Q for QAnon so unfortunately the single letter wouldn't be great idea anytime soon.
Maybe we need to own the Q so hard that Qanons will be afraid to identify with it.
Q Anon confirmed to be Queer Anon. Queer level access.
This is how you win, and it works
That was rather my point in bringing it up
Because LGBT are the largest groups
I think you made my point for me.
In case you missed it, we don't need the acronym at all. We already have one word that describes us all in any form that takes, and making an acronym that is overly long and extends/contracts depending on the whims of the writer is overly complicated and defeats the purpose of having an acronym.
Also, funny how you aren't going to argue the point that the inclusion of two spirits is controversial within the native American community itself, when that was the point you jumped at me with.
Controversial in a community other than my own means that two spirit isn't my point to argue for or against. I led with it because it was the thing that was there after the Q, which seemed to be where you were drawing the line in the sand. I'll concede that point.
The only thing I'd say about adopting "queer" as an umbrella term for all of us is that, as a term of abuse, a lot of us have strong negative associations with it and would hesitate to self-apply it. I use it, I like stealing power back from the bullies in that way, but I'm not gonna force someone to self-apply a slur that dredges up memories of being physically beaten, or their friends killed. An umbrella term could work, but maybe not that one as long as that trauma is still present in the community.
I think you and I agree on more than we may think. At the end of the day, I want everyone in the community to feel not only included, but unified as well.
I understand the word still hurts others, but so do so many other words commonly used within queer spaces. Gay is still used as a slur and pejorative and yet is still used universally amongst the gay community. I think part of the reclamation process is not only using the word whenever you can, but taking pride in the word as you do it. I do mean it when I say I feel warmth and love in the word queer, and I try to extend that to anyone I use it to describe. If someone within the community expressed discomfort in the word though, I wouldn't use it for them.
And I think at the end of the day you and I can agree we need an all encompassing term. Something that is inclusive, easy to say, versatile, and if possible, steeped in tradition within the queer community, I personally feel queer is the best candidate for that term, but I would be welcoming to better suggestions.
Queer makes me think of weird. Odd. Not normal. I wish gay meant more than just homosexual lol.
I mean I don't identify with a gender, I don't have preferences and if I had to label myself that way it would be longer than my name. But I also don't feel like I'm different or abnormal for not caring if my SO were male, female or whatever they want to be, I'm not abnormal for being part of a spectrum where I don't see things as feminine or masculine. I don't feel like I need to be labeled but I also have an easy time blending in with those whose religion and culture is limiting them from who they are.
I guess once more people get comfortable with the fact that it's normal to be who you are then they'll start being themselves and lgbt+++++ will just be everyone.
This is the same type of self hating bigotry that made the Bisexuals unwelcome at pride and transgender people shit on for 30 years.
Fuck you and anyone who thinks like you.
For advocating for an all inclusive term rather than an acronym that can be chopped to exclude people?
Yeah fuck me I guess.
Well you’re doing it by trying to exclude the parts you don’t agree with…
What about the word queer implies that?
Literally your entire first paragraph is you trying to explain why you get to decide which parts belong, based only on how YOU feel about it. It’s weird you can’t read what you wrote.
I said I understand why people feel the need to include terms that are already covered by the Q in LGBTQ, but overextending the acronym and including symbols and numbers causes confusion, defeats the purpose of the acronym, and makes people who are not included feel left out.
The whole point of my argument was I think queer should be the go to term cause it covers everyone and leaves nobody out.
Don't bother. Looked at thier history. They are a far right troll.
I have nothing to hide. I'm a dumb irresponsible formerly conservative queer person who is still learning and who says stupid shit all the time, some of it I even come to regret. It's all there for anyone who wants to judge my character. Happy reading. Hopefully your assessment of me is more forgiving than @Hyperi0n.
You’re like “ I want to hear counterpoints to my argument”.
Okay, well not everyone likes or associates with the general term “queer”.
You say “ I want to support and include people who need it”.
Then act like it my guy, here’s your chance to attempt to understand something separate from yourself that wants to be included and supported. You got this!
There was a petition to offer refugee status to LGBT Americans put before the House of Commons recently, I just got an email update about it because I signed it, and apparently they accept some refugees on this basis, but it doesn't look like many. I say open the borders and bring me your gays, America. We'll be nicer to them than you are.
My fiance and I have been looking into moving to Canada. He's a librarian in a small town and things are not looking so great.
It's really expensive unfortunately, but it's a hell of a lot safer by and large.
We're planning on lilypadding our way up through New England while we go through the citizenship process. These next few years are gonna suck major ass.
Please promise to not vote for any Conservatives and we'll welcome you with open arms
Wait you mean I could leave America? I would probably take that offer.
Come stay with me. You just gotta walk my dog if I'm late from work.
Be careful with offers like that. There are several million more Americans looking to flee than you can house.
I wish I was joking
No I know. I'd honestly help people though.
I was born to go dance and cycle all over montreal. Im in a northern state, rural, fuck all going on here.
To be honest a lot of Canada is very provincial in location and mental state. But at least we're mostly nice.
TERF Island is welcoming the whole LGBT?
Why the 2?
LGBTQ 2 has better graphics, split-screen multiplayer, a customizable interface, and hot-swappable controls. It also supports macros.
LGBT was so popular that they made a sequel with 200% the gay
If LGBTQ is so good, why isn't there... holy shit.
It stands for "two spirit," which is an Indigenous term for a gender identity similar to being transgender. Canada has been making a more concerted effort to acknowledge and respect Indigenous views and traditions, so it's added to the LGBT+ acronym in Canada
I have no idea what any of this means lol. How's it different from the T? If they "added" it on, then where did the + go? I'm old and confused and people are just people regardless so I have no idea what is the correct term for anyone anymore, y'all are just humans to me.
There are a lot of differing opinions on what should be used, LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBTQ+, LGBTQIA, etc, etc. I appreciate what inclusive acronyms try to do, but it does get very burdensome for non-queer people. I typically just use "queer", personally, though you obviously have to be a little careful with that one depending on context and perhaps it isn't always entirely encompassing. E.g. are intersex people "queer"? They just have abnormal sex chromosomes.
-A queer
+1 for the simpler queer term.
There's also GRSM (Gender Relational and Sexual Minorities) which I find much more meaningful than LGBTQIA2S+. First it isn't a mash-up of a load of loosely related terms and, secondly, it also includes D/s relationships or ENM (Ethical Non Monogamy) for example. Sadly it doesn't seem to be getting much traction anywhere ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Dang, I hadn't heard of that, but I like it! It's a shame it isn't very "catchy" I suppose lol.
Well imo, to make it easier for people... since the acronym started as LGBT, why not make it LGBT+. It is short and sweet, and less letters to remember.
Personally I've always liked GSRM (Gender, Sexual, and Romantic Minorities). Unfortunately that probably won't catch on anytime soon.
GSRM sounds like a knock off of Grand Theft Auto. Where you cause chaos and crime in some Romanian cities.
I'm pretty sure GSRM wrote A Song of Ice and Fire.
I really only know a sports blogger by that name. Wait did he also write some fiction?
The 2, in this case, is about respecting Indigenous Canadians. I think it's warranted.
Trans generally means a man born in a woman's body or a woman born in a man's body. People who are trans prefer to be treated as the gender they are inside, whether or not they appear to be that gender externally, just like traditional men would take offense to being referred to as she or her. It's fine to see people as just people but you should acknowledge that you wouldn't want to be referred to as the wrong gender and neither do trans people.
Two-spirit appears to be more of an umbrella term for native American third genders, with no single general meaning. The third gender part appears to be important, meaning they are neither male nor female on the inside, regardless of what gender they may appear to be. Take this with a grain of salt since this is the first time I've heard the term and just looked it up. There appears to be some contention around the meaning, so I'm probably wrong.
I always thought it was for 2A, for asexual and ally.
Having allies be a part of the acronym is a whole other debate though.
What if you don't believe in spirits or souls?
You get kicked out of the rainbow and have to make your own rainbow.
When did the rainbow go from "it's OK that some people want to have sex with their own gender" to "you must believe in abstract religious concepts"
It's LGBT Q2. It's the second quarter for the LGBT corporation.
Is that when our fiscal year ends?
Version 2 maybe?
2nd edition. Same dice.
Advanced LGBTQ & Bad Dragons.
Alphabet v2
Lol
I'm not sure of why anything but Q is involved, doesn't Queer basically cover everything that isn't Hetero? Also I thought people were against labels, but maybe I was wrong since everyone seems to want a label now.
Also I thought people were against labels, but maybe I was wrong since everyone seems to want a label now.
You are wrong.
Don't know the answer to your question but wanted to support the question anyway. I don't get why you're being downvoted
Why are you talking at all, if you don't know the answer to the question?
Because talking is what you do on forums.
Your post and criticism is similarly valueless, as you don't provide any answers, as is mine
Sometimes people simply want to engage in the discussion.
The "2" is for two-spirited which is a traditional Native American concept and that is neat.
So no LGBTQ sequel? 😥 /j
2 Gay 2 Furious
2 Gay 2 Fabulous
I'll wait for part 7
LGBTQ2: Electric Boogaloo
LGBTQ2: Electric Boogaloo.
What's wild about "two-spirit" is that it's not a really definite concept (that is, it is a neologism from 1990 that does not have a universal understanding among tribal traditions) but what it does accomplish is replacing the perjorative European anthropological term
::: spoiler slur
berdache, from Arabic burdaj "slave" meaning basically a young male submissive gay partner
:::
TIL that term is considered a slur. I remember learning about them in anthropology class ~15 years ago and that was the term used.
So is the respectful terminology today to use whichever modern LGBTQ label is accurate, or should I use two-spirit in historical context?
When speaking of first nations and amerindians who are queer and self-identify as two-spirit, use two-spirit. Historically, I don't know.
I can't be the only person who gives zero fucks about a 2 spirit lol
Wow.. that #2 seems to have taken this article hostage.
Imagine if it were at the beginning like it is ually displayed in Canada.
Two-spirit, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, questioning or intersex - or 2SLGBTQI+ for short.
I assume they meant + and it's some kind of typo
It's "two spirit", which is an indigenous term.
Damn. New version already?
There's a part 2 now? How much better is it? Or is the original always the best?
The first one did not become as popular as many people hoped. Yet, plenty remain hopeful that the imminent sequel faces less stigma.
laughs in Aliens and Terminator 2
Aliens and Terminator 2 was really the surprise crossover hit of the decade.
Two-Spirited. Apparently it's a Native American term used to indicate a third gender.
LGBTQ2: Electric Bugaloo
I hope the new v2 update doesn't come with a battlepass.
Where can I find the patch notes?
“Not all countries have the same values and legal system that we have in Canada. As a result, it is important for you to be informed about the legal framework and social customs governing sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression and sex characteristics in your destination country,” that page notes.
Wow, way to understate that. I suppose they have to downplay it though because if they were honest about the state of the US then they'd have to acknowledge that large swaths of the US can no longer be considered even remotely safe for members of the LGBT community. As such, they would have to consider the possibility that of members of the LGBT community might seek asylum in Canada and if so, that they could no longer turn them away on the basis that the US is a safe harbor (iirc many countries ban US citizens from seeking asylum because the US is supposed to be a "safe country").
Edit: Canada likes to claim that LGBT people from the US and UK can achieve refugee status, however the US-Canada Safe Third Country agreement says otherwise. Note that while there are exceptions to the agreement, none of them involve people who are members of the LGBT and/or BIPOC communities. In fact, it sounds like, based on the canada.ca link, that Canada recently expanded it to make it harder for people to claim refugee status if they're coming from the US, which is kinda the opposite of what they should be doing.
There's a chance that me and my sister might be fleeing to Canada if the situation gets bad enough even in the safer parts of the US, but even then, I know Canada has its own growing problems with fascism, and I'm looking into backup plans if things get bad enough there as well.
At the end of the day though, we may just run out of places we can run to.
The fascists in Canada are just a vocal minority.
A minority, but they are loud and have influence. I still remember the convoy that shut down the country for weeks.
The Convoy terrorized a city for weeks. Maybe shut down certain aspects of that city. The rest of Canada was largely unaffected.
It still was a scary situation to me, and reminded me a lot of the Jan 6 insurrection. It wasn't just Ottawa either that was terrorized though. There were smaller convoys that terrorized towns in Alberta, and there were several border crossings that were blocked by truckers.
Canada may be a more tolerant place than America, but it still faces a lot of the same vulnerabilities that we face here from being overtaken by a militant minority.
Same. Tbh I fully expect that if I tried however, they'd just turn me back and cite the legal agreement that basically states that Americans can't be refugees.
honest question, what's this "two-spirit" term? I can't find a straight forward explanation on the web
Most places in the world recognize two genders and their respective social roles: men and women. Some places recognize a third gender and its respective social and/or ceremonial role. This is the case for (some) North American Indigenous people, and two-spirit is a catch-all term to refer to a third gender role that they recognize.
It's hard to map onto the more standard two gender system that most of us are familiar with. When you think of men as the breadwinners and women as the child bearers, some cultures think of an additional distinct third gender with a designated social/ceremonial role.
But as you might have thought while reading that, men being the breadwinners and women being the child bearers is already a fairly outdated view of gender and social roles. Turns out social constructs are messier than they seem when you start to really analyze them and attempt to strictly define them.
TLDR: two-spirit is a catch-all term for a type of queer identity recognized by some North American Indigenous cultures.
So, at risk of being reductive: it’s like non-binary, but in the way some North American indigenous cultures see it
It's reductive, but still close enough if you don't know/interact with nonbinary or two-spirit people on a regular basis. At least to the extent of my understanding.
Two Spirit is a non binary identity with a specific cultural context within the history of indigenous peoples. In Canada, due to the increased focus on dealing with the reconciliation of Indigenous peoples the current Acronym is 2SLGBTQIA as it sort of symbolicly puts precedent on amplifying indigenous voices in the movement.
That doesn't explain it at all. By this context the term could mean gay and native Canadian.
It's a non-binary so neither male nor female aligned and it's basically not something someone who is not of the tribes where it's a thing can use the label. So that's basically the cliff notes.
To get more granular it's a partially ceremonial category of gender that is neither male nor female. Culturally this third gender has unique cultural and social roles similar to how male and female do that are unique to that culture. It's a social category that has it's own modes of dress, rituals and social expectations applied to it. Western culture doesn't exactly have a rigid third gender classification in this way so there's not much that two Spirit can be easily compared one to one with making it difficult to explain. Two Spirit people are sort of formally recognized by their people and assume the cultural trappings of this third gender role.
It's not linked to a specific tribe and is kind of an umbrella term, these third gender roles are a feature of a lot of different tribes that all call them something specific in their own languages so "two spirit" is just an English speaker's short cut to referring non-specifically to a person occupying one of potentially dozen different varieties of these different culture's third gender categories.
I too am curious about this term "2 spirits". From the above explanation and the term itself, I assume it means the person pretty much has a male and female component, thus "2 spirits". Sounds like gender fluid or non-binary to me but I'm not an expert on the differences.
Two spirit in a Canadian Indigenous context refers to people who identify as having two spirits inside of them. They have the spirits of both a man and a woman, so in terms outside Indigenous culture I think the most related term would be non-binary.
It's interesting to see this. There's got to be a list for more of these from all over the world.
AFAIK, it's basically people with different spirits inside them, falls in the gender queer domain, like being trans/NB (not a sexual orientation). So someone could have a male spirit and female spirit, or a female spirit and a nb spirit.
It primarily seems to be a First Nations/Native American identity, and appears to have a decently long history throughout time.
It also has a kinda cool flag.
Interesting. So it is a myth based orientation?
No disrespect I'm trying to understand if these people actually believe they are non binary, or if they believe a mythological entity lives within them
Their souls contain metaphysical aspects of both masculine and feminine tradition. They may contain an entire soul of both genders. None of these things are external. There is no separate or outside entity. All of the soul within them is them. Anything more specific requires knowing the person and their culture. Don't worry about mapping it onto your worldview. Just accept it within theirs.
Absolute acceptance, just clarifying that it is myth based.
That's an offensive way to refer to someone's religious and cultural experiences. Being two spirit is a gnostic spiritual experience that is both current and real. Calling it a myth isn't acceptance. It's judgement, the imposing of your frame of reference on their lived experience.
Fact: people retain their own identities and alignments (even multiple!) In their own head, and that's great.
Fact: souls and spirits are not proven to exist.
If people want to believe in religion and myth, that's totally fine. It's not my "judgement" to learn about, and acknowledge that others pursue traditions based in myth.
When I use the word myth I'm not singling out any one faith, all religion is myth based.
This isn't a respectful attempt to understand two spirit people. You are intentionally using dismissive language that implies a lack of validity to their lived experiences. "It's fine that you think and do these things, but it's all in your head, and your reasoning is made up nonsense." is something trans people of all sorts hear before their rights are attacked and diminished. It's something I have heard out of the mouth of flesh and blood humans in front of me. The structure with which you address two spirit people is comparably delegitimizing. If you must handle this with familiar terms instead of seeking the third party gnostic understanding of empathy, consider it a cultural metaphor. Because this metaphor contains facts and realities that you don't understand, even if they are couched in ideas you personally find implausible, and you're never going to really understand these facts by simple reframing. You have to understand from their perspective to deconstruct and reconstruct the truths held in the two spirit experience into your reality.
Everything is in our heads! And that's valid!
Our identities, our traditions, the myths we follow.
I'm not delegitimizing to acknowledge someone is following a myth.
Two spirit in a Canadian Indigenous context refers to people who identify as having two spirits inside of them. They have the spirits of both a man and a woman, so outside Indigenous culture I think the most related term would be non-binary.
isn't that just multiple personality disorder
So nice to see public safety taken seriously. I don't fit into the letters but also know full well that if a state is that intolerant then I won't fare well either so I avoid said state. With the atmosphere some states are building , anyone can be caught up in their net of Others to be othered.
Hell they can just make shit up as they are doing already, logic and reasoning are not a part of this whole scheme.
Damn all these comments discrediting the 2, just like all the NA migrants discredit Native Americans rights.
Talk about doubling down on bigotry towards a race of people. Sheeesh, some of y'all are hypocritical.
I think there's not very much discrediting. Mostly just confusion over what the 2 means. I agree that the 2 is warranted when discussing queer Canadians.
goddamnit I remember joking that one day there'd be the entire alphabet stuck on the end of that acronym -- remember when it was just LGB? -- and now they're adding fucken' numbers
They're "adding fucken' numbers" because the 2 counts for 2-spirited, an indigenous Canadian and American concept that they are respecting. And you should fucken' respect it too considering what has been done to those indigenous people in the last 500 years.
IA was a thing for a second, there seems to be more strands of this than Covid...
Strangely Canada is the only country I travelled to from Europe where I was verbally asked in their airport border control: if I was Mormon, as not, what my religion was, and if I was gay. Not the tolerant country I always heard about.
I live in Canada and I've never heard of this happening. Did they just straight up ask you this at customs?
Yes, he was the police admission controller in the airport. The one who decides if you can access it not the country. I was 21yo.
I dislike people don't believing me but that supports the fact that those questions were as inappropriated as I always thought.
At least make the lie believable
I don't lie but you won't believe what you don't want to. Therefore, bye.
I don't believe you.
Is up to you to deny this reality I can do nothing else then tell what happened to me.
You were getting hit on by a gay ex-Mormon. He was awkward. He wants you to know he's sorry he made you uncomfortable.
What? That's definitely an exception.
This was my awkward episode in Canada as I expected the country to be open minded and tolerant.
As a queer person, extending the acronym past what is necessary feels like pandering in the best light, and purposely trying to bait ridicule in the worst. The whole point of LGBT was to include anyone on the spectrum that was gay or trans, and the Q was supposed to include anyone who considers themselves queer, even if they don't meed those parameters. I can understand wanting to include I because intersex people are often left out of the conversation, and I even understand A because there is a lot of debate even within the LGBTQ community itself as to whether asexuals are considered queer or not. But when you start incorporating numbers, symbols, or extending past 5 letters within the acronym, you are defeating the purpose of having an acronym, creating confusion, baiting ridicule, and even making people not explicitly represented in the acronym feel excluded.
And there is already a single, all encompassing, inclusive, one syllable word that describes the community and all who occupy it: "Queer." It's easier to say, remember, and hell, even type if you are typing LGBTQ past 5 letters. But because of it being appropriated and used as a slur, there are many even within the community who are even afraid to utter it, let alone identify with it. Which is a god damned shame there is nothing inherently wrong the word, cause even in its original meaning, it meant someone who was outside the norm or otherworldly, and in literature has been used to describe characters like Gandalf, and characters in Shakespeare.
It describes me without having to explain or justify how or why. It describes how I feel as a person, how others see me, how I interact and relate to others. Its an adjective that can be verbed and adverbed. It's sharp and provocative, yet also warm and natural, like a forest green. People who have adopted and embraced the word for themselves feel the love within the word, and can extend it to others. And even for those outside the community, those who are brave enough to use it when talking in our defense come off as more decisive and confrontational, than the person who thinks adding another letter or number to the acronym will make them seem more legitimate.
It's time we stop fearing our word. It's time we recognize the difference between queer as an insult, and queer as a description of who we are, and we need to extend that to people who are willing to talk about us and our struggles or come to our defense. The word is only as evil as we are willing to reject it, and I will be dead in the ground before I let our word be the domain of queerphobes and bigots.
edit:
It's late and I'm going to bed. Apparently some people think I'm a self hating queer for thinking the acronym should be dropped for an all inclusive term, and so be it. It's late and I want to get some sleep. And a lot of the people making this argument I know haven't read past the first paragraph, much less to here. Anything clarification they could want can be found here and in my other posts here. Otherwise, if they are not going to put in the effort to read, I'm not going to put in the effort to respond.edit 2: I wanted to make a separate inclusion because I have had a chance to sleep and cool off, and I wanted to address some of the more combative posts in my replies: I get it. We as a community suffer attacks constantly, even from within the community, so I understand why so many here are on guard and skeptical of my intentions. And I'll admit, my post probably could be better written. I'm not exactly the best at articulating my thoughts. But the point of my post is not to exclude anyone from the community, but rather embrace a word that includes everyone. I would like to hear counterpoints to my argument, because maybe what I need is a different perspective on the issue. I would love to hear from people who prefer the acronym, and why they feel it maybe more inclusive. I am a flawed human being with many faults. I grew up in a conservative background, and my life up to this point has been trying to unlearn a lot of that. But I did not write this with the intention of excluding or singling out anyone. Forgive me I have done so.
Indeed.. all extending the acronym does is give the Far Right ammo for their unfunny "Alphabet Cult" jokes
At some point ya just gotta say "Look if you're not straight and not cis or just think that may be the case. You're in the club"
some of my favorite ideas i've seen:
the Queer community
the non-cis non-het community
the Pride community
i am really glad you took the time to put all of that into words. i, a queer person, agree completely.
I wish everyone was this rational
Extending the acronym to cover everyone is becoming ridiculous. I think we just need a word that covers all the bases rather than trying to shoe horn one more letter/number/symbol/wingding that's already becoming difficult to keep track of. It doesn't bring attention to any one group, nor does it help individual groups as a whole when you're summed up into a letter.
There's something in the back of my head telling me it's not an acronym, is it?
If it was it'd be pronounced ligbitikwitwo
You’re correct, it’s an initialism.
That's the word thanks!
It's an initialism
I mean, I don’t identify as queer and plenty of my friends don’t. One of my exes did and great for him but this just seems like the wrong argument. There likely just needs to be a technical, non-inflammatory term.
I’m glad you like it though.
The most all-encompassing term I've seen is sexual minority. Basically non-cis or non-straight
There's some argument over adopting the term GSM (Gender and Sexual Minorities) as an inoffensive general term.
I like it, even tho usually I include a "R" there for romantic minorities(eg people who might not be a sexual minority but are a romantic one) when discussing this with other people, but I guess it could be argued that they still fit into "sexual".
R or not, I like that it includes everyone without any identity being shoved into a letter or a "+" along with lots of others as if they're an afterthought, not as important as the ones that get to show up as their own letters.
I hate labels in general. I'm in the Q part (enby) and I'm completely fine with it, I don't need my own letter, nor do I need to identify with anything.
Can we apply this logic to the flag as well? I thought the rainbow of the pride flag was meant to represent diversity and cover all orientations…like how a rainbow spectrum of light literally covers all colours. Now specific groups are being added and people are finding ways to add another line to represent something. The flag is a mess.
I tend to think of the Progress flag as a product of the times, not as a replacement for the rainbow Pride flag. We added these additional signifiers specifically because those groups were under-represented or under particular attack, not because they aren't included in the Pride rainbow.
I know others do but I don't like the word queer. I say LGBT+.
My biggest qualm is a qualm I have with any acronym/abbreviation. If you're going to introduce a letter that is unknown to many, then define your term. Otherwise, I'm going to assume it's a typo, or I going to not recognize it.
All acronyms and abbreviations, or at least those that aren't commonplace, should be defined somewhere adjacent to their use, or else you are excluding people.
Speech/text is only useful if you're using it in a way that appropriately conveys a message to it's intended audience.
It is the intonation that matters more than anything else. The wording itself has very little meaning until it is meant as an insult or a compliment.
Can we make "gay" = happy again?
I had a teacher in highschool (04-08) whose name was B Gay. In his lifetime Gay want from "happy" to a slur. Machine shop was the best because of him too
Glad you had a good teacher.
I've come to realize that whatever it is that causes people to have alternative sexual preferences, I've got a little bit of it. However, I'm heterosexual, so I don't really identify with the community. I could accept the queer label, though.
How to defeat a slur, take it as your own. It's simply as easy as that.
Growing up I was fat as fuck, people made fun of me all the time. One day I decided it was enough, I started making fun of myself for being fat, suddenly everyone left me alone because it no longer got the response they were trying to get.
Ignoring / getting angry is what they want, turn around and happily scream yeah I'm queer, ya looking for a good time? (For example) ya know what's gonna happen? Their gonna start stammering and come up with another way to bother you, and when you don't give in and don't show a reaction they will end up storming away angrily. Then you have something to laugh at for the rest of the day.
What the fuck do you think pride parades are for?
My grandfather got caught downtown Toronto in one and spent 2 hours throwing slurs. Ya think a single person in that parade cared?
Lmao "Grandpa how was your day?"
"Pretty good actually. I spent 2 hours shouting slurs at strangers"
Two spirit is a native cultural thing and I think acknowledging it is a good idea. It used to just be LGBT, why should we stop expanding inclusion the moment you find a word you're personally comfortable with?
LGBTQIAPDSMFC2..... at some point you've got to consider the cut off otherwise you might as well write out the whole alphabet.
Queer is good to me as there's a difference between "Ben is queer" and "Ben is a queer"
I liked the MOGAI acronym since by nature it includes all of them but Queer also works as well.
QUILTBAG gets pretty good coverage too. Easy to say and cute, too.
(Queer, qUestioning, Intersex, Lesbian, Transgender, Bisexual, Asexual/Agender, Gay)
I never heard that one before, cool.
I mean going on your second point, I think it demonstrates the difference between a slur and a descriptor is how it's used as a word.
Like transgender is neutral term but we see it becoming a scare word by fascists recently by changing how its used in speech. Like "transgendered", "transgenderism" or "transing" (as a note, it's kinda scary how the first two no longer set off window's spellcheck). Basically turning trans as a state of being adjective into a verb makes it seem like an act you can do to someone or have happen to you.
Better question: What makes you think they are not included in LGBT or Queer? Also, I know the inclusion of two spirits within the LGBT acronym is contentious with many native Americans as well. It's why the pride flag with the native American feathers is frowned upon at many queer events.
If everyone is included in queer why be anything other than the Q community? What elevates some queerness to a place where it deserves recognition on its own and why is some queerness relegated to a bucket labelled "Miscellaneous"?
Need to keep backwards compatibility
Backwards Qompatibility
Crazy people recently adopted the Q for QAnon so unfortunately the single letter wouldn't be great idea anytime soon.
Maybe we need to own the Q so hard that Qanons will be afraid to identify with it.
Q Anon confirmed to be Queer Anon. Queer level access.
This is how you win, and it works
That was rather my point in bringing it up
Because LGBT are the largest groups
I think you made my point for me.
In case you missed it, we don't need the acronym at all. We already have one word that describes us all in any form that takes, and making an acronym that is overly long and extends/contracts depending on the whims of the writer is overly complicated and defeats the purpose of having an acronym.
Also, funny how you aren't going to argue the point that the inclusion of two spirits is controversial within the native American community itself, when that was the point you jumped at me with.
Controversial in a community other than my own means that two spirit isn't my point to argue for or against. I led with it because it was the thing that was there after the Q, which seemed to be where you were drawing the line in the sand. I'll concede that point.
The only thing I'd say about adopting "queer" as an umbrella term for all of us is that, as a term of abuse, a lot of us have strong negative associations with it and would hesitate to self-apply it. I use it, I like stealing power back from the bullies in that way, but I'm not gonna force someone to self-apply a slur that dredges up memories of being physically beaten, or their friends killed. An umbrella term could work, but maybe not that one as long as that trauma is still present in the community.
I think you and I agree on more than we may think. At the end of the day, I want everyone in the community to feel not only included, but unified as well.
I understand the word still hurts others, but so do so many other words commonly used within queer spaces. Gay is still used as a slur and pejorative and yet is still used universally amongst the gay community. I think part of the reclamation process is not only using the word whenever you can, but taking pride in the word as you do it. I do mean it when I say I feel warmth and love in the word queer, and I try to extend that to anyone I use it to describe. If someone within the community expressed discomfort in the word though, I wouldn't use it for them.
And I think at the end of the day you and I can agree we need an all encompassing term. Something that is inclusive, easy to say, versatile, and if possible, steeped in tradition within the queer community, I personally feel queer is the best candidate for that term, but I would be welcoming to better suggestions.
Queer makes me think of weird. Odd. Not normal. I wish gay meant more than just homosexual lol. I mean I don't identify with a gender, I don't have preferences and if I had to label myself that way it would be longer than my name. But I also don't feel like I'm different or abnormal for not caring if my SO were male, female or whatever they want to be, I'm not abnormal for being part of a spectrum where I don't see things as feminine or masculine. I don't feel like I need to be labeled but I also have an easy time blending in with those whose religion and culture is limiting them from who they are. I guess once more people get comfortable with the fact that it's normal to be who you are then they'll start being themselves and lgbt+++++ will just be everyone.
This is the same type of self hating bigotry that made the Bisexuals unwelcome at pride and transgender people shit on for 30 years.
Fuck you and anyone who thinks like you.
For advocating for an all inclusive term rather than an acronym that can be chopped to exclude people?
Yeah fuck me I guess.
Well you’re doing it by trying to exclude the parts you don’t agree with…
What about the word queer implies that?
Literally your entire first paragraph is you trying to explain why you get to decide which parts belong, based only on how YOU feel about it. It’s weird you can’t read what you wrote.
I said I understand why people feel the need to include terms that are already covered by the Q in LGBTQ, but overextending the acronym and including symbols and numbers causes confusion, defeats the purpose of the acronym, and makes people who are not included feel left out.
The whole point of my argument was I think queer should be the go to term cause it covers everyone and leaves nobody out.
Don't bother. Looked at thier history. They are a far right troll.
I have nothing to hide. I'm a dumb irresponsible formerly conservative queer person who is still learning and who says stupid shit all the time, some of it I even come to regret. It's all there for anyone who wants to judge my character. Happy reading. Hopefully your assessment of me is more forgiving than @Hyperi0n.
You’re like “ I want to hear counterpoints to my argument”.
Okay, well not everyone likes or associates with the general term “queer”.
You say “ I want to support and include people who need it”.
Then act like it my guy, here’s your chance to attempt to understand something separate from yourself that wants to be included and supported. You got this!
This is the brain of the terminally online
How I picture the above commenter
Me or
I'm bi, I think you're insane.
LGBTQ2 - the long-awaited sequel.
Best thing since they announced pussy 2
There was a petition to offer refugee status to LGBT Americans put before the House of Commons recently, I just got an email update about it because I signed it, and apparently they accept some refugees on this basis, but it doesn't look like many. I say open the borders and bring me your gays, America. We'll be nicer to them than you are.
My fiance and I have been looking into moving to Canada. He's a librarian in a small town and things are not looking so great.
It's really expensive unfortunately, but it's a hell of a lot safer by and large.
We're planning on lilypadding our way up through New England while we go through the citizenship process. These next few years are gonna suck major ass.
Please promise to not vote for any Conservatives and we'll welcome you with open arms
Wait you mean I could leave America? I would probably take that offer.
Come stay with me. You just gotta walk my dog if I'm late from work.
Be careful with offers like that. There are several million more Americans looking to flee than you can house.
I wish I was joking
No I know. I'd honestly help people though.
I was born to go dance and cycle all over montreal. Im in a northern state, rural, fuck all going on here.
To be honest a lot of Canada is very provincial in location and mental state. But at least we're mostly nice.
TERF Island is welcoming the whole LGBT?
Why the 2?
LGBTQ 2 has better graphics, split-screen multiplayer, a customizable interface, and hot-swappable controls. It also supports macros.
But now you have to pay for DLC maps.
LGBT was so popular that they made a sequel with 200% the gay
If LGBTQ is so good, why isn't there... holy shit.
It stands for "two spirit," which is an Indigenous term for a gender identity similar to being transgender. Canada has been making a more concerted effort to acknowledge and respect Indigenous views and traditions, so it's added to the LGBT+ acronym in Canada
I have no idea what any of this means lol. How's it different from the T? If they "added" it on, then where did the + go? I'm old and confused and people are just people regardless so I have no idea what is the correct term for anyone anymore, y'all are just humans to me.
There are a lot of differing opinions on what should be used, LGBT, LGBTQ, LGBTQ+, LGBTQIA, etc, etc. I appreciate what inclusive acronyms try to do, but it does get very burdensome for non-queer people. I typically just use "queer", personally, though you obviously have to be a little careful with that one depending on context and perhaps it isn't always entirely encompassing. E.g. are intersex people "queer"? They just have abnormal sex chromosomes.
-A queer
+1 for the simpler queer term.
There's also GRSM (Gender Relational and Sexual Minorities) which I find much more meaningful than LGBTQIA2S+. First it isn't a mash-up of a load of loosely related terms and, secondly, it also includes D/s relationships or ENM (Ethical Non Monogamy) for example. Sadly it doesn't seem to be getting much traction anywhere ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Dang, I hadn't heard of that, but I like it! It's a shame it isn't very "catchy" I suppose lol.
Well imo, to make it easier for people... since the acronym started as LGBT, why not make it LGBT+. It is short and sweet, and less letters to remember.
Personally I've always liked GSRM (Gender, Sexual, and Romantic Minorities). Unfortunately that probably won't catch on anytime soon.
GSRM sounds like a knock off of Grand Theft Auto. Where you cause chaos and crime in some Romanian cities.
I'm pretty sure GSRM wrote A Song of Ice and Fire.
I really only know a sports blogger by that name. Wait did he also write some fiction?
The 2, in this case, is about respecting Indigenous Canadians. I think it's warranted.
Trans generally means a man born in a woman's body or a woman born in a man's body. People who are trans prefer to be treated as the gender they are inside, whether or not they appear to be that gender externally, just like traditional men would take offense to being referred to as she or her. It's fine to see people as just people but you should acknowledge that you wouldn't want to be referred to as the wrong gender and neither do trans people.
Two-spirit appears to be more of an umbrella term for native American third genders, with no single general meaning. The third gender part appears to be important, meaning they are neither male nor female on the inside, regardless of what gender they may appear to be. Take this with a grain of salt since this is the first time I've heard the term and just looked it up. There appears to be some contention around the meaning, so I'm probably wrong.
I always thought it was for 2A, for asexual and ally.
Having allies be a part of the acronym is a whole other debate though.
What if you don't believe in spirits or souls?
You get kicked out of the rainbow and have to make your own rainbow.
When did the rainbow go from "it's OK that some people want to have sex with their own gender" to "you must believe in abstract religious concepts"
It's LGBT Q2. It's the second quarter for the LGBT corporation.
Is that when our fiscal year ends?
Version 2 maybe?
2nd edition. Same dice.
Advanced LGBTQ & Bad Dragons.
Alphabet v2
Lol
I'm not sure of why anything but Q is involved, doesn't Queer basically cover everything that isn't Hetero? Also I thought people were against labels, but maybe I was wrong since everyone seems to want a label now.
You are wrong.
Don't know the answer to your question but wanted to support the question anyway. I don't get why you're being downvoted
Why are you talking at all, if you don't know the answer to the question?
Because talking is what you do on forums.
Your post and criticism is similarly valueless, as you don't provide any answers, as is mine
Sometimes people simply want to engage in the discussion.
The "2" is for two-spirited which is a traditional Native American concept and that is neat.
So no LGBTQ sequel? 😥 /j
2 Gay 2 Furious
2 Gay 2 Fabulous
I'll wait for part 7
LGBTQ2: Electric Boogaloo
LGBTQ2: Electric Boogaloo.
What's wild about "two-spirit" is that it's not a really definite concept (that is, it is a neologism from 1990 that does not have a universal understanding among tribal traditions) but what it does accomplish is replacing the perjorative European anthropological term ::: spoiler slur berdache, from Arabic burdaj "slave" meaning basically a young male submissive gay partner :::
TIL that term is considered a slur. I remember learning about them in anthropology class ~15 years ago and that was the term used.
So is the respectful terminology today to use whichever modern LGBTQ label is accurate, or should I use two-spirit in historical context?
When speaking of first nations and amerindians who are queer and self-identify as two-spirit, use two-spirit. Historically, I don't know.
I can't be the only person who gives zero fucks about a 2 spirit lol
Wow.. that #2 seems to have taken this article hostage.
Imagine if it were at the beginning like it is ually displayed in Canada.
Two-spirit, lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, questioning or intersex - or 2SLGBTQI+ for short.
I assume they meant + and it's some kind of typo
It's "two spirit", which is an indigenous term.
Damn. New version already?
There's a part 2 now? How much better is it? Or is the original always the best?
The first one did not become as popular as many people hoped. Yet, plenty remain hopeful that the imminent sequel faces less stigma.
laughs in Aliens and Terminator 2
Aliens and Terminator 2 was really the surprise crossover hit of the decade.
OK, I can't keep up, what's the 2 mean? LOL
It means two-spirited and it's part of an Indigenous concept of gender and worldview.
Thank you! 2 Spirited was my first introduction to what it meant to be Queer, and it's pretty cool to see this variation on the acronym.
Hey no problem glad I could help. It's part of decolonization to include everyone in on Indigenous terms.
It's more relevant for NA, it's an indigenous thing iirc.
LGBTQ2$V®O0£∆\
LGBTQ2Ö[🦇+♂️]
LGBTQ what now?
Two-Spirited. Apparently it's a Native American term used to indicate a third gender.
LGBTQ2: Electric Bugaloo
I hope the new v2 update doesn't come with a battlepass.
Where can I find the patch notes?
Wow, way to understate that. I suppose they have to downplay it though because if they were honest about the state of the US then they'd have to acknowledge that large swaths of the US can no longer be considered even remotely safe for members of the LGBT community. As such, they would have to consider the possibility that of members of the LGBT community might seek asylum in Canada and if so, that they could no longer turn them away on the basis that the US is a safe harbor (iirc many countries ban US citizens from seeking asylum because the US is supposed to be a "safe country").
Edit: Canada likes to claim that LGBT people from the US and UK can achieve refugee status, however the US-Canada Safe Third Country agreement says otherwise. Note that while there are exceptions to the agreement, none of them involve people who are members of the LGBT and/or BIPOC communities. In fact, it sounds like, based on the canada.ca link, that Canada recently expanded it to make it harder for people to claim refugee status if they're coming from the US, which is kinda the opposite of what they should be doing.
There's a chance that me and my sister might be fleeing to Canada if the situation gets bad enough even in the safer parts of the US, but even then, I know Canada has its own growing problems with fascism, and I'm looking into backup plans if things get bad enough there as well.
At the end of the day though, we may just run out of places we can run to.
The fascists in Canada are just a vocal minority.
A minority, but they are loud and have influence. I still remember the convoy that shut down the country for weeks.
The Convoy terrorized a city for weeks. Maybe shut down certain aspects of that city. The rest of Canada was largely unaffected.
It still was a scary situation to me, and reminded me a lot of the Jan 6 insurrection. It wasn't just Ottawa either that was terrorized though. There were smaller convoys that terrorized towns in Alberta, and there were several border crossings that were blocked by truckers.
Canada may be a more tolerant place than America, but it still faces a lot of the same vulnerabilities that we face here from being overtaken by a militant minority.
Same. Tbh I fully expect that if I tried however, they'd just turn me back and cite the legal agreement that basically states that Americans can't be refugees.
I can't say I blame them.
honest question, what's this "two-spirit" term? I can't find a straight forward explanation on the web
Most places in the world recognize two genders and their respective social roles: men and women. Some places recognize a third gender and its respective social and/or ceremonial role. This is the case for (some) North American Indigenous people, and two-spirit is a catch-all term to refer to a third gender role that they recognize.
It's hard to map onto the more standard two gender system that most of us are familiar with. When you think of men as the breadwinners and women as the child bearers, some cultures think of an additional distinct third gender with a designated social/ceremonial role.
But as you might have thought while reading that, men being the breadwinners and women being the child bearers is already a fairly outdated view of gender and social roles. Turns out social constructs are messier than they seem when you start to really analyze them and attempt to strictly define them.
TLDR: two-spirit is a catch-all term for a type of queer identity recognized by some North American Indigenous cultures.
So, at risk of being reductive: it’s like non-binary, but in the way some North American indigenous cultures see it
It's reductive, but still close enough if you don't know/interact with nonbinary or two-spirit people on a regular basis. At least to the extent of my understanding.
Two Spirit is a non binary identity with a specific cultural context within the history of indigenous peoples. In Canada, due to the increased focus on dealing with the reconciliation of Indigenous peoples the current Acronym is 2SLGBTQIA as it sort of symbolicly puts precedent on amplifying indigenous voices in the movement.
That doesn't explain it at all. By this context the term could mean gay and native Canadian.
It's a non-binary so neither male nor female aligned and it's basically not something someone who is not of the tribes where it's a thing can use the label. So that's basically the cliff notes.
To get more granular it's a partially ceremonial category of gender that is neither male nor female. Culturally this third gender has unique cultural and social roles similar to how male and female do that are unique to that culture. It's a social category that has it's own modes of dress, rituals and social expectations applied to it. Western culture doesn't exactly have a rigid third gender classification in this way so there's not much that two Spirit can be easily compared one to one with making it difficult to explain. Two Spirit people are sort of formally recognized by their people and assume the cultural trappings of this third gender role.
It's not linked to a specific tribe and is kind of an umbrella term, these third gender roles are a feature of a lot of different tribes that all call them something specific in their own languages so "two spirit" is just an English speaker's short cut to referring non-specifically to a person occupying one of potentially dozen different varieties of these different culture's third gender categories.
I too am curious about this term "2 spirits". From the above explanation and the term itself, I assume it means the person pretty much has a male and female component, thus "2 spirits". Sounds like gender fluid or non-binary to me but I'm not an expert on the differences.
Two spirit in a Canadian Indigenous context refers to people who identify as having two spirits inside of them. They have the spirits of both a man and a woman, so in terms outside Indigenous culture I think the most related term would be non-binary.
It's interesting to see this. There's got to be a list for more of these from all over the world.
AFAIK, it's basically people with different spirits inside them, falls in the gender queer domain, like being trans/NB (not a sexual orientation). So someone could have a male spirit and female spirit, or a female spirit and a nb spirit.
It primarily seems to be a First Nations/Native American identity, and appears to have a decently long history throughout time.
It also has a kinda cool flag.
Interesting. So it is a myth based orientation?
No disrespect I'm trying to understand if these people actually believe they are non binary, or if they believe a mythological entity lives within them
Their souls contain metaphysical aspects of both masculine and feminine tradition. They may contain an entire soul of both genders. None of these things are external. There is no separate or outside entity. All of the soul within them is them. Anything more specific requires knowing the person and their culture. Don't worry about mapping it onto your worldview. Just accept it within theirs.
Absolute acceptance, just clarifying that it is myth based.
That's an offensive way to refer to someone's religious and cultural experiences. Being two spirit is a gnostic spiritual experience that is both current and real. Calling it a myth isn't acceptance. It's judgement, the imposing of your frame of reference on their lived experience.
Fact: people retain their own identities and alignments (even multiple!) In their own head, and that's great.
Fact: souls and spirits are not proven to exist.
If people want to believe in religion and myth, that's totally fine. It's not my "judgement" to learn about, and acknowledge that others pursue traditions based in myth.
When I use the word myth I'm not singling out any one faith, all religion is myth based.
This isn't a respectful attempt to understand two spirit people. You are intentionally using dismissive language that implies a lack of validity to their lived experiences. "It's fine that you think and do these things, but it's all in your head, and your reasoning is made up nonsense." is something trans people of all sorts hear before their rights are attacked and diminished. It's something I have heard out of the mouth of flesh and blood humans in front of me. The structure with which you address two spirit people is comparably delegitimizing. If you must handle this with familiar terms instead of seeking the third party gnostic understanding of empathy, consider it a cultural metaphor. Because this metaphor contains facts and realities that you don't understand, even if they are couched in ideas you personally find implausible, and you're never going to really understand these facts by simple reframing. You have to understand from their perspective to deconstruct and reconstruct the truths held in the two spirit experience into your reality.
Everything is in our heads! And that's valid!
Our identities, our traditions, the myths we follow.
I'm not delegitimizing to acknowledge someone is following a myth.
Two spirit in a Canadian Indigenous context refers to people who identify as having two spirits inside of them. They have the spirits of both a man and a woman, so outside Indigenous culture I think the most related term would be non-binary.
isn't that just multiple personality disorder
So nice to see public safety taken seriously. I don't fit into the letters but also know full well that if a state is that intolerant then I won't fare well either so I avoid said state. With the atmosphere some states are building , anyone can be caught up in their net of Others to be othered. Hell they can just make shit up as they are doing already, logic and reasoning are not a part of this whole scheme.
Damn all these comments discrediting the 2, just like all the NA migrants discredit Native Americans rights.
Talk about doubling down on bigotry towards a race of people. Sheeesh, some of y'all are hypocritical.
I think there's not very much discrediting. Mostly just confusion over what the 2 means. I agree that the 2 is warranted when discussing queer Canadians.
goddamnit I remember joking that one day there'd be the entire alphabet stuck on the end of that acronym -- remember when it was just LGB? -- and now they're adding fucken' numbers
They're "adding fucken' numbers" because the 2 counts for 2-spirited, an indigenous Canadian and American concept that they are respecting. And you should fucken' respect it too considering what has been done to those indigenous people in the last 500 years.
IA was a thing for a second, there seems to be more strands of this than Covid...
Strangely Canada is the only country I travelled to from Europe where I was verbally asked in their airport border control: if I was Mormon, as not, what my religion was, and if I was gay. Not the tolerant country I always heard about.
I live in Canada and I've never heard of this happening. Did they just straight up ask you this at customs?
Yes, he was the police admission controller in the airport. The one who decides if you can access it not the country. I was 21yo. I dislike people don't believing me but that supports the fact that those questions were as inappropriated as I always thought.
At least make the lie believable
I don't lie but you won't believe what you don't want to. Therefore, bye.
I don't believe you.
Is up to you to deny this reality I can do nothing else then tell what happened to me.
You were getting hit on by a gay ex-Mormon. He was awkward. He wants you to know he's sorry he made you uncomfortable.
What? That's definitely an exception.
This was my awkward episode in Canada as I expected the country to be open minded and tolerant.