If anyone's curious, it looks like you "hold the brake and swipe up" on a touchscreen area to go in drive, and "hold the brake and swipe down" to go into reverse.
So yeah, it's not a physical shifter, though it seems pretty intuitive and simple. BUT if you're in reverse and try to swipe up to drive(like you'd do during a 3 point turn) , you have no feedback aside from looking at the screen to let you know it actually registered your shift.
IMO this is another idiotic implementation at going cheap on physical controls or "being high tech fancy" that shouldn't exist. It's dumb to not have important functions give physical feedback while driving. I'm not laying most of the blame on tesla for this. It still sounds like she's the one who really screwed herself, but I'd all but guarantee there's going to be a lawsuit for this one, and rightly so. Fuck all this touch control crap in cars. It's lousy enough just on the radios.
Don't forget the fancy electric door handles that stop working when you back into a pond.
There are emergency override handles, but not everyone knows where they are or how to use them, so they're not all that useful in an emergency.
These deadly features are purely cosmetic, so I would lay a decent amount of blame is on tesla
Stupid cosmetic designs have been an issue for a long time. There was a theater fire in Chicago in the early 1900's where a bunch of people died because they couldn't figure out how to use the fancy door handles while panicking and being crushed by everyone trying to get out. That's the reason why exit doors on buildings with a high occupancy are now required to swing out, and have those pushbar locks that allow the door to open even if you're just falling on it.
If it's possible that someone will need to use something while panicking, it needs to be as simple, intuitive, and failproof as possible
Wanted to chime in and clarify, the major issue there is you cannot operate a door handle in a crush, no matter how much of your senses you have. Can't use a door handle if you can't use your arms. Am drunk on the internet and hope this isn't interpreted as a hostile reply.
But isn't the point of crash bar locks that just the act of being crushed against the door will force it open? The only thing you have to do to open it is push on it or be pushed into it. Of course that won't help you when you fall as the door swings open and get trampled, but it's better than everyone burning to death.
Absolutely.
If it's possible
It's always "possible". In fact, it's inevitable that an accident or emergency will happen. They happen every day. It's clearly Tesla's fault for having terrible controls but what else is new?
That's why we have dedicated first responders instead of just fire hoses everywhere. Many fires can be stopped with just some baking soda or a wet towel, but non-professionals can't be trusted to act rationally in that situation.
I’d hope that this would institute federal rules for vehicle egress and drive controls. Even if it’s only because a Richie died.
But I can also see Elon being a fucking snowflake about it and trying to whine his way out of spending any inflated investor money fixing this problem.
… and have those pushbar locks that allow the door to open even if you're just falling on it.
It wasn't that they didn't know how to use the door handles. It was that the doors opened inward.
There were also ornamental doors that were an issue, but those weren't actually doors, so it wasn't that the victims couldn't figure out how to use the handles, it's that the "doors" weren't really doors. They were walls.
If I had my way, regulations would require a physical connection for all door handles, and not just that a secondary physical release be available. I don't know how you would go about finding injuries associated with each design as a layperson, but I bet there's a death or two associated with each novel design.
An old man roasted in his Cadillac XLR because the battery was dead and he didn't know where the secondary release was. I think it's under the seat on that car. I don't care how cool that electronic door release was, or if the old man was negligent in not knowing his exits; it wasn't worth his life.
And let's not forget that there are people who have flexibility issues that can't reach under their seat in an emergency.
Or might have gained injuries during the accident preventing them from reaching.
This is why I liked driving the newer Army vehicles or well cared for Humvees. Everything was labeled. Anything important to not hit accidentally had a safety cover. And anything not obvious like an out of sight fire extinguisher has a high visibility sign pointing to it from your normal field of view.
Fuck fashion, give me cars that are comfortable and safe.
This would be at least the second time this "feature" has been tied to dying horribly.
The front driver and passenger emergency handles are so intuitively placed that every Tesla owner has to warn all their passengers not to use them.
The back is another story entirely if they even have them, but the front are fine.
Edit: I will grant people might forget after not using them for years in a moment of panic. But they know.
I do have to find these but ….
you don’t need the mechanical backup if you open the door immediately
mechanical backup can’t help with unequal pressure while you’re sinking
who the heck would think of that while underwater in a car full of water?
IMO, the real answers are:
Train people to open windows when they go into the water and expect to swim out. There ought to be power long enough to do this
Make sure there is a window breaker securely mounted someplace obvious
I don’t know if I’d do any better in a panic, but I really ought to get window breakers for all my family’s cars
I thought you couldn't open normal doors underwater anyway due to water pressure so the recommendation is to kick out your windshield. Do newer cars have doors that open more easily underwater?
These deadly features are purely cosmetic
No, electronic door handles are not cosmetic, they save a lot more lives than than they kill by people drowning or burning alive in their car because they are too stupid to read their cars manual.
Since you apparently do not know this, the purpose of electronic door handles is for the car to be able to lock you out from opening the door if there is a car or bicycle approaching from behind in your blind spot. That's why you only see them in cars with blind spot radars
That being said, Teslas design is still terrible. In Audis the electronic door handle doubles up as the mechanical emergency door handle, you just need to pull on it harder than normal and it will engage the manual mechanism
they save a lot more lives than than they kill
Do they? Can you provide any examples?
the purpose of electronic door handles is for the car to be able to lock you out from opening the door if there is a car or bicycle approaching from behind in your blind spot.
Seems like they created a lot of unnecessary risk to alleviate a relatively minor problem.
So it needs to fail open then. Without a charge it should fail into a position it can be opened or actually open itself.
This is not a new issue. Failure engineering has been around for a long time.
Bro, you dont need electronc door-handles to have electronic locks,
Anton Yelchin was also done in by a not too dissimilar feature. The gear shift of his vehicle returned to a "neutral position" after shifting so unless you looked at the letter indicator you may not realize what gear you're in.
I have the same annoyance with my prius. It's a physical shifter you move, but it electronically shifts and the shifter always goes back to the same spot. If I try shifting in a hurry it won't register every so often.
That's however not a good comparison because you still have a physical "way" of feeling where you are shifting to. I never had an issue with shifters that return to neutral, even in very high stress situations.
Touch controls are however a very different thing, because you have absolutely no indication if you actually shifted or not.
In fact, Ive had various cars now with return to neutral shifters - the new Mazda CX-60/70/80/90 don't have this and I happend to shift in neutral, simply resting my hand on the shifter...
My prius is like this and every once in a while if I let of the brake a touch to soon while I shift it won't register going from drive to reverse, or the other way around. It's annoying, but something I'm aware of. Something that never happens with a physical shifter.
I'm curious. In what situations do shifters need to return to neutral? Like, at a stop? Or when you open the door? Why neutral and not park, for example? Or is park also neutral in EV lingo?
"Return to neutral" does not mean neutral gear in this context. If you shift an old Prius into Drive, the shifter knob snaps back to the center of the jig, which is a neutral position for it to be in. It doesn't stay in the Drive slot while the car is in Drive. You can probably find photos or videos of this out there somewhere.
Edit: I understand it better. Thanks. Yeah, I think that can be annoying too. You have to pay attention to the knob in order to know which gear you are in, and when it lands where you want it to land. I guess new drivers would be more comfortable with that.
Thanks for the explanation!
Thanks, but that doesn't sound like the OP is describing, though. You're saying that in the old Prius, you put the car in Drive and it will stay in Drive. Whereas OP seems to be implying that they put it in Drive, and then the car switched to Neutral (not Drive anymore.) Otherwise, why would anyone be annoyed by that?
That is the worst idea ever. When I drove a snow plow I would shift from forward to reverse and back hundreds of times a storm. Without taking my eyes off my surroundings.
But bro, you'll save like $0.87 per car by not including a physical gearshifter. Won't anyone think of the poor shareholders footing that bill.
It's simple but it's not easy, because it's complex.
If there's anything we've learned in human history of engineering and design it's that complexity kills when relying on human nature to control.
Swiping up to drive is the same direction as tap up to reverse from a previous model Tesla. Kind of like how trackpads and mouse scroll wheels work in opposite directions. I can see how it’s not so intuitive if the direction contradicts 35 years of muscle memory.
Even a button shift. Literally just a row of buttons, select your gear by pressing it. Reverse would be under a safety cover so you don't hit it at 60mph.
Or, you just have logic in the car's software that stops you from shifting to reverse over 5mph.
Don't trust software. Just don't. Software crashes planes. There's no way car companies are programming better than plane companies. You can certainly have the feature, but a safety cover should also exist in such a configuration. There's no reason, except shareholder primacy, to not include it.
How’s that any different?
My current Tesla has a stalk to click up/down to go into reverse/drive, but I always verify before taking my foot off the brake
my Subaru had a physical shifter on the console to move forward or back to a specific selection , but I always verified by taking my foot off the brake
I used to have a Pontiac with a shifter stalk on the steering wheel that I move to a specific selection, but I always verified before taking my foot off the brake
There's over 300 people here who seem to agree with me. Then there's you.
I find it hard to talk badly of anyone who had just died, whether or not they were related to Mitch McConnell. That was a horrible way to go.
But, if it turns out the Tesla design was at fault, then we may be watching one of the few families who have enough resources to challenge Elon Musk get medieval on his ass. Which would be fun to watch, even if did take a tragedy to start all off.
Their family is not a "loving family" that normal people would imagine. These are conservatives who lack the capacity for empathy and do not feel kindness or love for one another. Their relationships are transactional.
If they sue, it will only be because they see an opportunity for profit. Not because they want to prevent this from happening to anyone else.
I disagree, it's important to note that Conservatives love their families, too. They are not inhuman.
And their love of their family can, for some, feed into their racism. Their families are successful and they may attribute that to genetics. People with inferior genetics can't really help themselves, can they? They need a ruling class to make the important decisions for them.
You're right though, if they sue it won't be to prevent this from happening to anyone else. It will be for revenge and punishment. Profit is a side motive here. They might pour an excessive amount into any lawsuit just for revenge.
That paragraph about genetics and needing a ruling class because the poor can't help themselves feels so wrong, immoral and like a completely degenerate thing to say that I am tempted to turn the argument around and say that these people need help. Who in there right mind would, seriously, consider something that's not even the closest thing to being backed by science and logic.
Who in there right mind would, seriously, consider something that's not even the closest thing to being backed by science and logic.
They're not interested in science, logic, or anything that goes against their pre-concieved world view, though. They are right because they have the courage of their convictions, and if there are facts or logic that get in the way, well the facts and logic must be wrong!
That's how we get to almost half the country believing in "alternative facts", which makes governing this country so hard.
My family and most people I know are poor, and this is also how they function. Even the "side" pieces.
If it's about money for them, they may see a payday incoming. At the very least, the insurance company that had a life insurance policy out on her might have a thing or two to say to Muskrat. I cannot imagine how much money they are going to be paying out.
I'm really torn between hoping the lawsuit payout is very high vs. not wanting the McConnell crime family to become even richer.
The level of glee here over a death is kind of appalling. Yeah, she was a billionaire, so was Steve Jobs. Related by marriage to Mitch does not make her responsible for Mitch's garbage decisions. I'm sure she has family and friends who are devastated. I had not heard anything about her existence before this, but even if she's a bad person she's still a human and drowning is an awful way to die.
I came close to drowning as a kid and I don't think it would be all that bad of a way to go.
Wow, he referenced her death in his retirement statement, but I just assumed it was age related because... well... look at them.
Always remember, if your car goes in the water, you CAN'T open your door until the pressure equalizes. You have pounds of water pushing against the door, keeping it closed.
Mythbusters went over this... Undo your seat belt and let the water IN. When there's enough water inside, open the door.
This is a Tesla right? Those door handles are electric, so you need to hope the cars electrics hold and not short. Or you can find the emergency release in the door pocket.
you can find the emergency release in the door pocket.
Not without some training first. They are inexplicably hidden. I imagine Elon laughing aloud when he reads of people drowning in Teslas, frantically trying to figure out how to escape.
I've heard they have some manual door latch backups? do you know if they'd be affected as well?
If the backups aren't the door handles themselves, where are they located, and how many owners and passengers know about them?
They're mechanical and hidden behind a panel
Perfect for the emergency situation where you would need them!
Luckily there's reinforced windows that can't easily be broken either. I wonder if the EU models are the same because I have a hard time believing that this isn't breaking several safety regulations. This whole thing is such an ironic and frankly idiotic freak accident.
Ah I was confusing the front and rear doors. From this video it looks like it's in the door arm rests, while the rear door is burred in the rear door pocket under a flap. Both appear to operate the latch manually so no electricity required.
There's no way kids will be able to get out of the car if their parent is unconscious in the front seat...
Stop saying it out loud. Elon can only get so hard.
They're completely manual.
There's a manual door latch literally right below the button you'd press inside to open it.
Pull that up & the door unlatches to open.
They're literally designed in for emergencies.
It's the same in the model 3, Y, & S.
I just watched the video above. I'd say it's a criminally bad design, because the emergency open is completely hidden from the casual observer and completely blending in with the other colors and shapes of the armrest. This makes it useless in an emergency.
There is a reason why Fire extinguishers, seatbelt release buttons, emergency exit signs, emergency brakes in trains etc. are all designed in bright, red stand-out colors with big letters on them.
Helicopter Egress Training they actually have you keep your seat belt(s) on until the cabin is filled with water, pressure equalized, AND door/window opened. The reason is, to push a door or window open you need a solid "foundation" and if you're unstrapped floating in water you may only push your body away.
A road vehicle has a smaller cabin and more hand/foot holds, but I thought it worth mentioning.
I think the reason they mention it is, in a car full of water, it would be an easy thing to forget, then if you get the door open, you panic because you still can't get out.
Better yet, smash the front wind shield (after seatbelt is off or cut) to get out sooner
The windshield won't break like that. Only the passenger windows would break and come apart
And sometimes (Tesla) not even the passenger windows.
Smash anything but a windshield. I've needed to violently remove a windshield when replacing it (time was running out and tool shops were closed). Wearing protective glasses and pushing with both legs is what it took to somewhat loosen it, but not immediately remove it. Windshields are a multilayer structure of plastic and glass. Side windows are just glass.
They should have used the Tesla Rock that broke the Tesla Trucks window
This is horrifying. A manual window breaking device that is part of the interior of the car should be standard by now. It wouldn't be that difficult to design. This is not a Tesla exclusive problem.
I never actually thought about this, but you're right. Wtf isn't this a standard, and part of saftey scores?
For some cars you can remove the head rest and use the metal prongs, but it's still probably not as good as an actual purpose built punch.
Doesn't seem there's a tool available for breaking laminated glass. Which is also terrifying but I do understand why the DOT mandated the switch.
In most cars I would say use the headrest, but my assumption on that the trasla.did something dumb to make those not useful either.
Tragic way to die. I wouldn’t wish this even on my worst enemies.
We all watch the videos of how to deal with this exact situation but in reality only a few people would be able to react accordingly to save themselves.
The article describes the area of water as a “pond” but the vehicle was fully submerged. Rescuers had trouble with rescue attempts due to the depth. Seems more like a lake to me.
"there is no technical difference between lakes and ponds, according to the National Park Service. While the distinction between lakes and ponds can be a bit blurry, there are some general guidelines. For example, if sunlight can reach the bottom of the entire body of water, it's generally considered a pond, according to the National Park Service. Conversely, if the body of water is deep enough in some places that sunlight cannot penetrate it, it's generally considered a lake.
When it comes to size, though, there are no exact guidelines. Ponds are generally smaller than lakes, but there's no universal standard. That means some things we call a pond might be considered a lake by some. And some lakes may be more pond-like to some people."
Also, your first stop out of the Vegas airport should always be for early morning drinks at the Double Down Saloon. I'll let you figure out that that gem of a property on your own.
Why would you ever pay to drink in Vegas? Head immediately to the Rite Aid and get alcohol like everyone else. Or go to any sports betting section in a casino. Drinks are free.
I'm not entirely sure I said anything about paying for drinks in Vegas. I've never paid for a drink in either fine high class establishment I described.
"Remember, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. Except for herpes. That shit'll come back with you."
Check out Omega Mart at Area 15
Yep! Have tickets for that already. Very excited.
Golden Tiki is an excellent bar. That whole area has great food too.
And if you know anything about Meow Wolf, their third location is a short ride away. It's called Omega Mart. It's fine to go in drunk but it's better to start sober and get drinks at their bar.
We have our meow wolf tickets! Plan is exactly to go in sober (maybe high already) and stop at the bar.
After digging through the rule the NHTSA adopted, there's nothing in there that mandates side glazed windows. The rule covers ejection mitigation. The summary hits the major point:
The agency anticipates that manufacturers will meet the standard by modifying
existing side impact air bag curtains, and possibly supplementing them with advanced
glazing. The curtains will be made larger so that they cover more of the window
opening, made more robust to remain inflated longer, and made to deploy in both side
impacts and in rollovers. In addition, after deployment the curtains will be tethered near
the base of the vehicle’s pillars or otherwise designed to keep the impactor within the
boundaries established by the performance test. This final rule adopts a phase-in of the
new requirements, starting September 1, 2013.
There's a lot of discussion in there. The document is over 300 pages. Some of it covers how the side windows can be down or could become deformed from a roll-over. For testing procedures the windows have to be pre-cracked or removed.
The Federal Registrar calls out side glazed windows in 49 CFR 571.226:
S1. Purpose and Scope. This standard establishes requirements for ejection mitigation systems to reduce the likelihood of complete and partial ejections of vehicle occupants through side windows during rollovers or side impact events.
and in 49 CFR 571.226 S4.2.1.1:
S4.2.1.1 No vehicle shall use movable glazing as the sole means of meeting the displacement limit of S4.2.1.
I anticipate that mid to higher end vehicles will have side glazed windows. While lower end vehicles will not.
Apparently it was because people's arms (or even heads?) would hang out of the broken window when a car is rolling over at highway speeds.
If I remember the MythBusters episode your only other options are to roll down the windows immediately and then start to exit or wait for the car to completely submerge and hope the electronics that control your windows and doors haven't failed.
I wonder how long the electronics last in the Tesla being submerged for the window to roll down.
My car’s headrests have a glass breaker tip at the bottom of the metal bars that you use to raise/lower them. I imagine this is standard in many modern-ish cars.
New Teslas have laminated glass, not tempered glass. It does not shatter.
Is laminated glass why my rented chevy bolt has so many pits? Car’s only got 7k miles on it, but when I drive toward the sun it’s like driving into a glitter storm.
I don't know. But windshields have been laminated glass since forever.
Your previous comment stated it was 2020
Windshields have been laminated for decades. Side windows were tempered glass for decades, and since 2020 are mandated to be laminated glass.
You may one day learn the difference between MAY and MUST.
Makes me think of the supposed bullet-proof cyber truck glass... Odds are much more likely you'll be trying to escape your car than be under a hail of gunfire lol.
This is apparently a common thing across car manufacturers now.
Apparently not in door gap, trunk lid pours water into car, discharged battery can't open rear passenger doors, Teslas.
There’s a door handle override but it’s kind of hidden. Terrible, terrible user experience.
death by own car is probably the pinnacle of poor UX.
But everyone that gets in my car for the first time manages to find it if I forget to tell them to press the button with the minus sign.
Those aren’t glass breakers, and you probably can’t shatter the glass with those. Car windows are incredibly strong.
Yeah, a fully closed car side window is extremely strong. However if you're able to crack it just a bit it is far easier to break.
Yeah, but it's way harder under water.
I punched a window and broke it back in the day, but that was a junk car from the 80s we were destroying. And I was outside of it with all the room in the world.
Trying to do it while seated inside would have been impossible, and underwater all that pressure against the other side spread out equally makes it really umpossible. It's basically a giant cushion that absorbs and distributes the force. If you do break it, all that water pressure is going to push it straight in your face, and chances are you're just going to let the water in, but not create a whole big enough to climb thru. Certainly not u til your car is full of water and pressure equalizes.
If you're worried about this enough to carry a glass breaker, take a page from the Kia boys and make sure it's ceramic. Even steel with a point is going to be difficult. But ceramic will shatter it with almost no effort. Gotta keep on bipping
And the world becomes ever so slightly more like Atlas Shrugged again
Mitch's sister in law died in a Tesla.
Mitch Endorses Trump.
Trump meets with Elon Musk.
Do I have the timeline correct?
theoretically it should be possible to remotely control a tesla. I'm not saying its murder, but did anyone check?
The great thing about software is it can be programmed to leave no evidence.
"The log says self driving was off"
"The log says the computer controlled doors were unlocked"
Who wrote that log? Yeah.
This is one of the reasons I am hesitant to get any "digital car". I've read that government has backdoors to turn off engine or otherwise control cars.
The real threat is foreign bad actors. There's a global database that maps all VINs.
How many Americans have connected cars?
How many are in garages?
How many will not smell the exhaust before it kills them when every car in the country is started one night?
That's WMD
Source: I used to meet with the CISOs of all the global auto manufacturers annually. If you're a light sleeper, don't work in infosec.
interesting idea for what really amounts to a terrorist attack. any others? i figure you may have some other cool ones
personally, i'm more scared of our government in most cases. of course, foreign bad actors can and will do damage but over the long term the government, should it morph into something a bit more authoritarian than it is today, would have much more incentive and capability to do harmful things
i remember there was some leak nearly a decade ago already that showed NSA can access all smart TVs. some TVs even have microphones so that they can listen to what's going on in your living room. Makes you wonder if Orwell was a time traveler
I was a pretty big punk rock anarchist conspiracy theorist from my preteens through my early 20s. Now I work in the field. IMHO the US' version (not the GOP's) of world order, is the least scary. And with these psychos threatening murder and shit, the SOTU rebuttal about knee deep in blood... I've come to accept whatever dumb shit I or anyone I know is doing online, the govt doesn't give a shit. But as a FOSS nerd and EFF-donating privacy advocate, I feel you. My real fear is bad actors leveraging and extorting people.
As far as other examples.. Just imagine every single thing you know is connected, is under attack 100% of every day in every direction. Way before the current tension, the US has been in cyber warfare with Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, etc. Right now they're all trying to steal each other's classified data. Some off the books guys might be actively trying to meltdown a nuclear plant. The world is your oyster. Whatever you can imagine, it's happening. That's why those Industry meetups I attended exist. Lookup ISAC. Automotive, finance, healthcare, manufacturing... Every vertical has an org where the security leadership exchanges best practices in spite of corporate competition, "bc the bad guys are sharing tips, so why shouldn't we?"
I think you're talking about PRISM? Iirc they had a pipe directly from the Bell/At&t Telco building at the Brooklyn bridge but that could have been hearsay. But I'd argue he was just a historian, not a futurist. It's always been the same. Just different tools.
cant wait for children to break into that technology for giggles
I skimmed the headline too quickly when I saw "billionaire" and "panicked last call" then I thought she was somehow involved in insider trading for Tesla stock.
Annnnnd I'm becoming a worse person cuz this put a smile on my face. Honestly it's partially her fault for trusting Elon's company.
Would you say that if they died in a Ford? Chevy? Honda?
I would still smile but I would not blame her for choosing a Honda. Tesla is special because Elon is special.
When your Tesla is on fire, or sinking, you can play a fun little game called "Find the manual door release"
Wait....
....there isn't one?
There is, you just have to find it while the car sinks or the flames spread. It's not the normal button that a user might be accustomed to pushing to get out so they might not know where it is and finding it in time might be the difference between life and death. For front doors it's usually a lever somewhere but in some model Ys and the cybertruck the rear door release is hidden. under a mat in the door recess.
Im begining to think that billionares are just weak to water.
It's their magnetism.
It was cold out, so she decided to take her Tesla Model X SUV for the four-minute drive rather than walk.
It says everything.
A four-minute drive is like a 20-minute walk. If it was really that cold, I may have done the same thing.
The way you portray it, "it says everything," is not fair - and yes, I know we're talking about a billionaire. Like, she deserved to die because she didn't want to walk in the cold.
Her death shouldn't have happened the way it did. And again, yes, I know she's a billionaire, fuck billionaires, etc etc. But her mistake was her not being careful while driving, and potentially the car not being safe enough (e.g. doors jam-locked?)
It's 100% Tesla's fault. Mechanical way to open doors is not obvious and hidden, sometimes all together missing. And car relies on power to open the door, which runs out when submerged. Shit car with shit ideas. There's a reason why windows easily shatter on cars and Musk and his cult followers seem to think getting out of car in case of emergency is less important than sounding cool.
I bet her car didn’t have a shifting stalk. New Model X makes you shift using the touchscreen. I knew that idea sounded unsafe but holy moly.
What?
Swiping up to drive is the same direction as tap up to reverse from a previous model Tesla. Kind of like how trackpads and mouse scroll wheels work in opposite directions. I can see how it’s not so intuitive if the direction contradicts 35 years of muscle memory.
The pressure of the water against the door would've prevented her from opening it regardless of the door's mechanical features or power supply issues.
The windows not shattering is absolutely a Tesla design flaw, but there's no way that woman was ever going to open a door from inside a submerged car.
True, but there's some more.
Over here, ice roads are opened on typical winters on several smaller bays. The instruction to drivers is:
don't wear a seatbelt
if ice breaks, open your door swiftly (get out first, then think about calling people)
if you can't open the door, lower your window swiftly
if you can't lower the window, break it (the side window, not the windshield - a windshield is multilayer laminate, too strong to break quickly)
Typically, if a car sinks on an ice road, people are likely to get out. A crank-operated window is handy in such a case. But regardless of instruction, sometimes folks do die. :(
In general, I would not like to experience any sort of extreme incident in an over-engineered car. I'd prefer something from the 1970-ties, but with airbags.
Pressure takes a while to build up and you generally can open the door before car sinks enough, it's been tested. But even if you had to wait for car to fill with water, pressure would equalize then and you'd have no issues opening the door. Of course, you need to keep calm to use all of those tricks but car taking them away from you just increases risk of something like that happening.
Okay but a door that just works is going to be easier to get open before water pressure makes that impossible. Also, once there's enough water in the car, a mechanical door will open just fine. At which point you swim for it in the opposite direction the car is moving.
That's wouldn't be a factor once the water entered the car. The pressure equalises if there water is on both side of the door.
I agree with the sentiment that we shouldn't be praising people's deaths, but I want to point out the cold part
Texas Hill Country loosely covers an area around Fredricksburg Texas with San Antonio and Austin being just on the outskirts. Looking back at the weather reports, and not knowing the exact location, the temperature on 2/10 was a low of 45-65 degrees F. Considering the lows typically come in in the late hours of the night the more realistic temperature was somewhere between 50-75 degrees F.
Also, you can see the picture of the ranch in the article which also says it's a 900 acre ranch. 900 acres is only 1.4 sq miles. It's one thing to say a 4 min drive at 35 mph vs walking, but realistically it's a lot slower speed and thus a lot shorter walk.
Point taken, but regardless, it still doesn't merit some rando say "Driving instead of walking because it's cold? It says everything - NO WONDER she died!!!!!" It's a silly thing to conclude.
Absolutely agree
Yes, if it's cold, I will often make a 4-minute drive instead of walking 20 minutes from my guest house to my main house on my own property. It's so relatable to most Americans!
You just want to bash billionaires, and I've already addressed that in my original comment. If you don't want to understand my point, that's on you. Stop with the strawman arguments.
Ooh, we got ourselves a mind reader, folks!
Cold, in Texas? I mean, I'm sure it gets cold, but it's not Canada and people go on 20min walks in the dead of winter with their dogs there. Awful way to die, no question.
Oh I understand. But it's all about perspective.
Someone living in Siberia may say "cold in Canada? Silly geese."
I come from a tropical climate in which people wear jackets when it's 21 C (31 C being the average all year round.) In my mind, 21 degrees Celsius (about 68 F I think) was damn cold.
Of course, I now laugh about that.
But I won't judge her for not wanting to be cold and using a maybe seemingly reasonable way to do that.
My first trip to Florida from Ohio I was on a tour at Kennedy Space Center. When I got there I noticed all the people in jackets, it was 65F, I was perplexed. Now the opposite is also true, I hate weather over 80F, too dang hot.
See that's why living in Arizona is so much fun. There's some park ranger in Death Valley but what's the odds on running into them online?
Lol! That was funny :)
But anyway, Arizona can have cold snaps, right? Like 32 F at night in January? I know New Mexico and Texas do.
But that rarely happens at sea level in an actual tropical region, near the equator.
You should look at Northern Arizona. Southern Arizona is really hot and then Northern Arizona is high plains that can rival Canada for snow every few years. (Fun fact, when they were wondering where all the snow was for the Vancouver Olympics? It was in Arizona, we stole it fair and square!)
....I have places that are 5 minute drives from my house. Do you think I take 40 minute strolls each time I want to visit one?
Oh no
Anyways
Billionaire Kryptonite recipe.
One part billionaire, one part Tesla, two parts billionaire tears. Shake well and douse with copious volumes of lake water. Chef's kiss
So......Tesla are the new way to kill persons now?
There seems to be a lot of conflicting info on this for example the Tesla model and what exactly caused it to go into the water. Either way, make sure that your vehicle is going the direction you desire before you start moving fast enough to cause an issue.
although, this probably wouldn't have happened if the user had physical feedback to feel whether the shifter moved how they wanted it to or not. Fuck tesla. The rescue crews also had issues with getting into the tesla that wouldn't have happened on most vehicles.
So anyway, let's say you have a story and one minute of the story the character is driving peacefully to get to Walmart, but 60 seconds later she is in her Tesla completely submerged making a phone call. Maybe searching what to do via Goo... duck duck go. Wouldn't it be interesting for the reader to know a little bit more about the story?
For example, what was she wearing? Was her mechanic's name Frank or Dave? Was the water cold? What did she need at Walmart anyway?
Forget about the part of how the car actually made it into the water. What about the part where it started sinking? Did it sink slowly? Nose first? Did she know that the sand on your shoes could fracture the glass if it had hard enough material? Again, let's not even talk about how the Tesla went from the road to underwater... pretty obvious...a gigantic alien picked it up and tossed it in the water.
Epstein didn't kill himself either.
If your car ever gets submerged, unbuckle your seatbelt, roll the windows down and once the water gets high enough in the car, you can open the door or climb through the window. This is pure panic from someone who should know better.
In an old car with crank windows, that'll work. In a new car, the electrics have to still be working, and in a Tesla the OS has to still be running.
If you can't get the windows down before the water pressure seals them shut, it's still survivable without a glass breaker if you keep your wits about you and the car doesn't flip. You'd need to take a deep breath right before the interior completely fills with water and then just sit there until the pressure mostly equalizes. There was at least one reported case of someone in a submerged car specifically crediting their survival to Mythbusters successfully showing just that, but a variation of the scenario involving the car flipping while sinking into deeper water later proved to be much less survivable.
Someone else in this comment thread pointed out that Tesla's windows are laminated and not tempered so a glass break doesn't actually work on them.
I just did a quick "fact check" as I was writing this and apparently there are multiple cars that are going to laminated glass windows. I'll have to add that to the list of things I don't want and have to check next time I'm shopping for a car.
I’ve just learned that laminated glass is now mandatory across all models since 2020.
Huh, me too. I appreciate your leaving this comment!
Yea if it ends up on it's side, gonna have a bad time.
Bottom door is stuck in the mud and the top door will be extra heavy to open. Ouch.
Not even that, really. Mythbusters just had the car flip upside down after entering the water and just the process of tumbling over was enough to get Adam to burn through his air and tap out (I don't remember if the car reached the bottom or not, but their setup left the car doors still facing sideways).
Yea, any orientation not rubber down need to open the windows asap
That’s why you need to have an emergency hammer with a belt cutter inside the car. Preferably one near every seat.
I’ve just learned that laminated glass is now mandatory across all models since 2020. You won't be able to break the glass.
makes me wonder what you can do in the same situation in a cybertruck. I guess it would not be easy to break bulletproof glass
There is a mechanical emergency release on the doors. All my friends tend to find that if I don't preemptively tell them to press the button with the minus sign.
hidden behind the speakers.
Why are you in emergency situations in your car so often that all your friends have to know about the button?
If it's a Tesla I believe the emergency release will break the glass if it's fully rolled up.
It does not. I used the emergency release on my brother's Model 3 a few times. It may do a little bit of damage to the rubber window gasket each time. This will agitate the car owner.
Its more of a "can" thing rather than a "will" thing. I've had plenty of passengers use the emergency release instead of the real button and no broken windows yet. But I'm on my 4th windshield. Yeah rocks and ice chunks falling off an overpass.
I never said I was in an emergency situation. I said my friends tend to find the emergency release button rather than the one that actually opens the door.
I think in a car with electric motors if it were to back into a pond could still get maybe get the windows down before the 12 volt system shut down.
If anyone's curious, it looks like you "hold the brake and swipe up" on a touchscreen area to go in drive, and "hold the brake and swipe down" to go into reverse.
So yeah, it's not a physical shifter, though it seems pretty intuitive and simple. BUT if you're in reverse and try to swipe up to drive(like you'd do during a 3 point turn) , you have no feedback aside from looking at the screen to let you know it actually registered your shift.
IMO this is another idiotic implementation at going cheap on physical controls or "being high tech fancy" that shouldn't exist. It's dumb to not have important functions give physical feedback while driving. I'm not laying most of the blame on tesla for this. It still sounds like she's the one who really screwed herself, but I'd all but guarantee there's going to be a lawsuit for this one, and rightly so. Fuck all this touch control crap in cars. It's lousy enough just on the radios.
Don't forget the fancy electric door handles that stop working when you back into a pond.
There are emergency override handles, but not everyone knows where they are or how to use them, so they're not all that useful in an emergency.
These deadly features are purely cosmetic, so I would lay a decent amount of blame is on tesla
Stupid cosmetic designs have been an issue for a long time. There was a theater fire in Chicago in the early 1900's where a bunch of people died because they couldn't figure out how to use the fancy door handles while panicking and being crushed by everyone trying to get out. That's the reason why exit doors on buildings with a high occupancy are now required to swing out, and have those pushbar locks that allow the door to open even if you're just falling on it.
If it's possible that someone will need to use something while panicking, it needs to be as simple, intuitive, and failproof as possible
Wanted to chime in and clarify, the major issue there is you cannot operate a door handle in a crush, no matter how much of your senses you have. Can't use a door handle if you can't use your arms. Am drunk on the internet and hope this isn't interpreted as a hostile reply.
But isn't the point of crash bar locks that just the act of being crushed against the door will force it open? The only thing you have to do to open it is push on it or be pushed into it. Of course that won't help you when you fall as the door swings open and get trampled, but it's better than everyone burning to death.
Absolutely.
It's always "possible". In fact, it's inevitable that an accident or emergency will happen. They happen every day. It's clearly Tesla's fault for having terrible controls but what else is new?
That's why we have dedicated first responders instead of just fire hoses everywhere. Many fires can be stopped with just some baking soda or a wet towel, but non-professionals can't be trusted to act rationally in that situation.
I’d hope that this would institute federal rules for vehicle egress and drive controls. Even if it’s only because a Richie died.
Jeep was forced to recall their confusing shifters after one crushed that actor in his driveway.
But I can also see Elon being a fucking snowflake about it and trying to whine his way out of spending any inflated investor money fixing this problem.
Crash bars
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crash_bar
It wasn't that they didn't know how to use the door handles. It was that the doors opened inward.
There were also ornamental doors that were an issue, but those weren't actually doors, so it wasn't that the victims couldn't figure out how to use the handles, it's that the "doors" weren't really doors. They were walls.
If I had my way, regulations would require a physical connection for all door handles, and not just that a secondary physical release be available. I don't know how you would go about finding injuries associated with each design as a layperson, but I bet there's a death or two associated with each novel design.
An old man roasted in his Cadillac XLR because the battery was dead and he didn't know where the secondary release was. I think it's under the seat on that car. I don't care how cool that electronic door release was, or if the old man was negligent in not knowing his exits; it wasn't worth his life.
And let's not forget that there are people who have flexibility issues that can't reach under their seat in an emergency.
Or might have gained injuries during the accident preventing them from reaching.
This is why I liked driving the newer Army vehicles or well cared for Humvees. Everything was labeled. Anything important to not hit accidentally had a safety cover. And anything not obvious like an out of sight fire extinguisher has a high visibility sign pointing to it from your normal field of view.
Fuck fashion, give me cars that are comfortable and safe.
This would be at least the second time this "feature" has been tied to dying horribly.
The front driver and passenger emergency handles are so intuitively placed that every Tesla owner has to warn all their passengers not to use them.
The back is another story entirely if they even have them, but the front are fine.
Edit: I will grant people might forget after not using them for years in a moment of panic. But they know.
I do have to find these but ….
IMO, the real answers are:
I don’t know if I’d do any better in a panic, but I really ought to get window breakers for all my family’s cars
I thought you couldn't open normal doors underwater anyway due to water pressure so the recommendation is to kick out your windshield. Do newer cars have doors that open more easily underwater?
No, electronic door handles are not cosmetic, they save a lot more lives than than they kill by people drowning or burning alive in their car because they are too stupid to read their cars manual.
Since you apparently do not know this, the purpose of electronic door handles is for the car to be able to lock you out from opening the door if there is a car or bicycle approaching from behind in your blind spot. That's why you only see them in cars with blind spot radars
That being said, Teslas design is still terrible. In Audis the electronic door handle doubles up as the mechanical emergency door handle, you just need to pull on it harder than normal and it will engage the manual mechanism
Do they? Can you provide any examples?
Seems like they created a lot of unnecessary risk to alleviate a relatively minor problem.
So it needs to fail open then. Without a charge it should fail into a position it can be opened or actually open itself.
This is not a new issue. Failure engineering has been around for a long time.
Bro, you dont need electronc door-handles to have electronic locks,
Anton Yelchin was also done in by a not too dissimilar feature. The gear shift of his vehicle returned to a "neutral position" after shifting so unless you looked at the letter indicator you may not realize what gear you're in.
I have the same annoyance with my prius. It's a physical shifter you move, but it electronically shifts and the shifter always goes back to the same spot. If I try shifting in a hurry it won't register every so often.
That's however not a good comparison because you still have a physical "way" of feeling where you are shifting to. I never had an issue with shifters that return to neutral, even in very high stress situations.
Touch controls are however a very different thing, because you have absolutely no indication if you actually shifted or not.
In fact, Ive had various cars now with return to neutral shifters - the new Mazda CX-60/70/80/90 don't have this and I happend to shift in neutral, simply resting my hand on the shifter...
My prius is like this and every once in a while if I let of the brake a touch to soon while I shift it won't register going from drive to reverse, or the other way around. It's annoying, but something I'm aware of. Something that never happens with a physical shifter.
I'm curious. In what situations do shifters need to return to neutral? Like, at a stop? Or when you open the door? Why neutral and not park, for example? Or is park also neutral in EV lingo?
"Return to neutral" does not mean neutral gear in this context. If you shift an old Prius into Drive, the shifter knob snaps back to the center of the jig, which is a neutral position for it to be in. It doesn't stay in the Drive slot while the car is in Drive. You can probably find photos or videos of this out there somewhere.
Edit: I understand it better. Thanks. Yeah, I think that can be annoying too. You have to pay attention to the knob in order to know which gear you are in, and when it lands where you want it to land. I guess new drivers would be more comfortable with that.
Thanks for the explanation!
Thanks, but that doesn't sound like the OP is describing, though. You're saying that in the old Prius, you put the car in Drive and it will stay in Drive. Whereas OP seems to be implying that they put it in Drive, and then the car switched to Neutral (not Drive anymore.) Otherwise, why would anyone be annoyed by that?That is the worst idea ever. When I drove a snow plow I would shift from forward to reverse and back hundreds of times a storm. Without taking my eyes off my surroundings.
But bro, you'll save like $0.87 per car by not including a physical gearshifter. Won't anyone think of the poor shareholders footing that bill.
It's simple but it's not easy, because it's complex.
If there's anything we've learned in human history of engineering and design it's that complexity kills when relying on human nature to control.
Swiping up to drive is the same direction as tap up to reverse from a previous model Tesla. Kind of like how trackpads and mouse scroll wheels work in opposite directions. I can see how it’s not so intuitive if the direction contradicts 35 years of muscle memory.
Even a button shift. Literally just a row of buttons, select your gear by pressing it. Reverse would be under a safety cover so you don't hit it at 60mph.
Or, you just have logic in the car's software that stops you from shifting to reverse over 5mph.
Don't trust software. Just don't. Software crashes planes. There's no way car companies are programming better than plane companies. You can certainly have the feature, but a safety cover should also exist in such a configuration. There's no reason, except shareholder primacy, to not include it.
How’s that any different?
There's over 300 people here who seem to agree with me. Then there's you.
I find it hard to talk badly of anyone who had just died, whether or not they were related to Mitch McConnell. That was a horrible way to go.
But, if it turns out the Tesla design was at fault, then we may be watching one of the few families who have enough resources to challenge Elon Musk get medieval on his ass. Which would be fun to watch, even if did take a tragedy to start all off.
Their family is not a "loving family" that normal people would imagine. These are conservatives who lack the capacity for empathy and do not feel kindness or love for one another. Their relationships are transactional.
If they sue, it will only be because they see an opportunity for profit. Not because they want to prevent this from happening to anyone else.
I disagree, it's important to note that Conservatives love their families, too. They are not inhuman.
And their love of their family can, for some, feed into their racism. Their families are successful and they may attribute that to genetics. People with inferior genetics can't really help themselves, can they? They need a ruling class to make the important decisions for them.
You're right though, if they sue it won't be to prevent this from happening to anyone else. It will be for revenge and punishment. Profit is a side motive here. They might pour an excessive amount into any lawsuit just for revenge.
That paragraph about genetics and needing a ruling class because the poor can't help themselves feels so wrong, immoral and like a completely degenerate thing to say that I am tempted to turn the argument around and say that these people need help. Who in there right mind would, seriously, consider something that's not even the closest thing to being backed by science and logic.
They're not interested in science, logic, or anything that goes against their pre-concieved world view, though. They are right because they have the courage of their convictions, and if there are facts or logic that get in the way, well the facts and logic must be wrong!
That's how we get to almost half the country believing in "alternative facts", which makes governing this country so hard.
My family and most people I know are poor, and this is also how they function. Even the "side" pieces.
If it's about money for them, they may see a payday incoming. At the very least, the insurance company that had a life insurance policy out on her might have a thing or two to say to Muskrat. I cannot imagine how much money they are going to be paying out.
I'm really torn between hoping the lawsuit payout is very high vs. not wanting the McConnell crime family to become even richer.
The level of glee here over a death is kind of appalling. Yeah, she was a billionaire, so was Steve Jobs. Related by marriage to Mitch does not make her responsible for Mitch's garbage decisions. I'm sure she has family and friends who are devastated. I had not heard anything about her existence before this, but even if she's a bad person she's still a human and drowning is an awful way to die.
I came close to drowning as a kid and I don't think it would be all that bad of a way to go.
Wow, he referenced her death in his retirement statement, but I just assumed it was age related because... well... look at them.
Always remember, if your car goes in the water, you CAN'T open your door until the pressure equalizes. You have pounds of water pushing against the door, keeping it closed.
Mythbusters went over this... Undo your seat belt and let the water IN. When there's enough water inside, open the door.
This is a Tesla right? Those door handles are electric, so you need to hope the cars electrics hold and not short. Or you can find the emergency release in the door pocket.
Not without some training first. They are inexplicably hidden. I imagine Elon laughing aloud when he reads of people drowning in Teslas, frantically trying to figure out how to escape.
I've heard they have some manual door latch backups? do you know if they'd be affected as well?
If the backups aren't the door handles themselves, where are they located, and how many owners and passengers know about them?
They're mechanical and hidden behind a panel
Perfect for the emergency situation where you would need them!
Luckily there's reinforced windows that can't easily be broken either. I wonder if the EU models are the same because I have a hard time believing that this isn't breaking several safety regulations. This whole thing is such an ironic and frankly idiotic freak accident.
Ah I was confusing the front and rear doors. From this video it looks like it's in the door arm rests, while the rear door is burred in the rear door pocket under a flap. Both appear to operate the latch manually so no electricity required.
There's no way kids will be able to get out of the car if their parent is unconscious in the front seat...
Stop saying it out loud. Elon can only get so hard.
They're completely manual. There's a manual door latch literally right below the button you'd press inside to open it.
Pull that up & the door unlatches to open.
They're literally designed in for emergencies.
It's the same in the model 3, Y, & S.
I just watched the video above. I'd say it's a criminally bad design, because the emergency open is completely hidden from the casual observer and completely blending in with the other colors and shapes of the armrest. This makes it useless in an emergency.
There is a reason why Fire extinguishers, seatbelt release buttons, emergency exit signs, emergency brakes in trains etc. are all designed in bright, red stand-out colors with big letters on them.
Helicopter Egress Training they actually have you keep your seat belt(s) on until the cabin is filled with water, pressure equalized, AND door/window opened. The reason is, to push a door or window open you need a solid "foundation" and if you're unstrapped floating in water you may only push your body away.
A road vehicle has a smaller cabin and more hand/foot holds, but I thought it worth mentioning.
I think the reason they mention it is, in a car full of water, it would be an easy thing to forget, then if you get the door open, you panic because you still can't get out.
Better yet, smash the front wind shield (after seatbelt is off or cut) to get out sooner
The windshield won't break like that. Only the passenger windows would break and come apart
And sometimes (Tesla) not even the passenger windows.
Smash anything but a windshield. I've needed to violently remove a windshield when replacing it (time was running out and tool shops were closed). Wearing protective glasses and pushing with both legs is what it took to somewhat loosen it, but not immediately remove it. Windshields are a multilayer structure of plastic and glass. Side windows are just glass.
They should have used the Tesla Rock that broke the Tesla Trucks window
This is horrifying. A manual window breaking device that is part of the interior of the car should be standard by now. It wouldn't be that difficult to design. This is not a Tesla exclusive problem.
I never actually thought about this, but you're right. Wtf isn't this a standard, and part of saftey scores?
For some cars you can remove the head rest and use the metal prongs, but it's still probably not as good as an actual purpose built punch.
Doesn't seem there's a tool available for breaking laminated glass. Which is also terrifying but I do understand why the DOT mandated the switch.
In most cars I would say use the headrest, but my assumption on that the trasla.did something dumb to make those not useful either.
Tragic way to die. I wouldn’t wish this even on my worst enemies.
We all watch the videos of how to deal with this exact situation but in reality only a few people would be able to react accordingly to save themselves.
The article describes the area of water as a “pond” but the vehicle was fully submerged. Rescuers had trouble with rescue attempts due to the depth. Seems more like a lake to me.
"there is no technical difference between lakes and ponds, according to the National Park Service. While the distinction between lakes and ponds can be a bit blurry, there are some general guidelines. For example, if sunlight can reach the bottom of the entire body of water, it's generally considered a pond, according to the National Park Service. Conversely, if the body of water is deep enough in some places that sunlight cannot penetrate it, it's generally considered a lake.
When it comes to size, though, there are no exact guidelines. Ponds are generally smaller than lakes, but there's no universal standard. That means some things we call a pond might be considered a lake by some. And some lakes may be more pond-like to some people."
https://www.reconnectwithnature.org/news-events/the-buzz/whats-the-difference-lake-vs-pond/
A few years back, a woman drove her car into a small retaining pond off a highway and 2 of the kids in the car drowned. Everyone was amazed that a car could be completely submerged in such a small pond. Those suckers are deep!
https://www.twincities.com/2013/11/28/st-louis-park-drowning-accident-spurs-questions-about-retention-ponds/
But the sun shined on them while they drowned, so...
Actually there is a definition, from my old environmental engineering textbook:
It should frankly happen by design. Humans can't be expected to let the water in while submerged, that takes will and under stress it's hard to think.
Say, have pressure sensors outside which would open some small windows, I don't know.
I appreciate this. I'm astounded by the callous lack of empathy of some of these other comments.
Being terminally online causes a huge distortion in one's sense of empathy and justice
Imagine the crazy conspiracy shit if this was how Musk forced McConnell to retire by forcing her Tesla into the water, or some other crazy reason.
That's some James Bond villain bullshit.
Putin forced Musk to force McConnell to retire and endorse Trump
Or Kennedy bullshit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappaquiddick_incident
I dont approve of his billionaire-helping policy, but I do approve of his billionaire-killing policy!
Oh no
Anyway, I’m going to Vegas later this week to get messy with my friends for my 40th. Anyone have any recommendations for places to hit?
Stromboli at 4 kegs.
Super sketch building and parking lot.
Red vinyl booths and decor not updated since Elvis was a teenager truck driver.
Bartenders who've seen the hard times.
Open 24/7
Drinking
Smoking
Gambling
High likelihood of hepatitis A, B, C and as of yet unknown variants
And the best fucking stromboli this side of the Gambino family
http://www.fourkegs.com/
Also, your first stop out of the Vegas airport should always be for early morning drinks at the Double Down Saloon. I'll let you figure out that that gem of a property on your own.
Why would you ever pay to drink in Vegas? Head immediately to the Rite Aid and get alcohol like everyone else. Or go to any sports betting section in a casino. Drinks are free.
I'm not entirely sure I said anything about paying for drinks in Vegas. I've never paid for a drink in either fine high class establishment I described.
"Remember, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. Except for herpes. That shit'll come back with you."
Check out Omega Mart at Area 15
Yep! Have tickets for that already. Very excited.
Golden Tiki is an excellent bar. That whole area has great food too.
And if you know anything about Meow Wolf, their third location is a short ride away. It's called Omega Mart. It's fine to go in drunk but it's better to start sober and get drinks at their bar.
We have our meow wolf tickets! Plan is exactly to go in sober (maybe high already) and stop at the bar.
Always carry a glass breaker in your car within reach of the drivers seat
New Teslas have laminated glass, not tempered glass. It does not shatter.
https://youtu.be/6tnEDH1HfD0?t=378
So they're death traps
Gotcha
I’ve just learned that laminated glass is now mandatory across all models since 2020.
https://lifelinerescuetools.com/blog/3397/
After digging through the rule the NHTSA adopted, there's nothing in there that mandates side glazed windows. The rule covers ejection mitigation. The summary hits the major point:
There's a lot of discussion in there. The document is over 300 pages. Some of it covers how the side windows can be down or could become deformed from a roll-over. For testing procedures the windows have to be pre-cracked or removed.
The Federal Registrar calls out side glazed windows in 49 CFR 571.226:
and in 49 CFR 571.226 S4.2.1.1:
I anticipate that mid to higher end vehicles will have side glazed windows. While lower end vehicles will not.
Apparently it was because people's arms (or even heads?) would hang out of the broken window when a car is rolling over at highway speeds.
If I remember the MythBusters episode your only other options are to roll down the windows immediately and then start to exit or wait for the car to completely submerge and hope the electronics that control your windows and doors haven't failed.
I wonder how long the electronics last in the Tesla being submerged for the window to roll down.
My car’s headrests have a glass breaker tip at the bottom of the metal bars that you use to raise/lower them. I imagine this is standard in many modern-ish cars.
New Teslas have laminated glass, not tempered glass. It does not shatter.
https://youtu.be/6tnEDH1HfD0?t=378
WTF, how can they just make a change like that, and it get approved to be on the road?
Youtube comment,
Tesla that crashed into a pole, it was on fire, and the driver was trapped behind the laminated glass. Scary situation.
The first in crew that responded had a firefighter try to break the glass with a conventional window punch device, that didn't work.
Then he tried smashing it with some forcible entry tools, that didn't work either.
The driver ended up dying. It took 45 mins to extinguish the flames and 15 mins to get the car doors open.
I've just learned that laminated glass is now mandatory across all models since 2020.
https://lifelinerescuetools.com/blog/3397/
Is laminated glass why my rented chevy bolt has so many pits? Car’s only got 7k miles on it, but when I drive toward the sun it’s like driving into a glitter storm.
I don't know. But windshields have been laminated glass since forever.
Your previous comment stated it was 2020
Windshields have been laminated for decades. Side windows were tempered glass for decades, and since 2020 are mandated to be laminated glass.
You may one day learn the difference between MAY and MUST.
Makes me think of the supposed bullet-proof cyber truck glass... Odds are much more likely you'll be trying to escape your car than be under a hail of gunfire lol.
This is apparently a common thing across car manufacturers now.
Apparently not in door gap, trunk lid pours water into car, discharged battery can't open rear passenger doors, Teslas.
There’s a door handle override but it’s kind of hidden. Terrible, terrible user experience.
death by own car is probably the pinnacle of poor UX.
But everyone that gets in my car for the first time manages to find it if I forget to tell them to press the button with the minus sign.
Those aren’t glass breakers, and you probably can’t shatter the glass with those. Car windows are incredibly strong.
https://carseatblog.com/38120/mythbusters-vehicle-headrests-are-meant-to-break-vehicle-windows/
Yeah, a fully closed car side window is extremely strong. However if you're able to crack it just a bit it is far easier to break.
Yeah, but it's way harder under water.
I punched a window and broke it back in the day, but that was a junk car from the 80s we were destroying. And I was outside of it with all the room in the world.
Trying to do it while seated inside would have been impossible, and underwater all that pressure against the other side spread out equally makes it really umpossible. It's basically a giant cushion that absorbs and distributes the force. If you do break it, all that water pressure is going to push it straight in your face, and chances are you're just going to let the water in, but not create a whole big enough to climb thru. Certainly not u til your car is full of water and pressure equalizes.
If you're worried about this enough to carry a glass breaker, take a page from the Kia boys and make sure it's ceramic. Even steel with a point is going to be difficult. But ceramic will shatter it with almost no effort. Gotta keep on bipping
New Teslas have shatter-proof laminated glass.
https://youtu.be/6tnEDH1HfD0?t=378
isn't the point of breaking the door window under water to let water in, so you can open the car door once the pressure difference is equilibrated?
Also, I’ve just learned that laminated glass is now mandatory across all models since 2020. Glass breakers won't save you.
https://lifelinerescuetools.com/blog/3397/
And the world becomes ever so slightly more like Atlas Shrugged again
Mitch's sister in law died in a Tesla.
Mitch Endorses Trump.
Trump meets with Elon Musk.
Do I have the timeline correct?
theoretically it should be possible to remotely control a tesla. I'm not saying its murder, but did anyone check?
The great thing about software is it can be programmed to leave no evidence.
"The log says self driving was off"
"The log says the computer controlled doors were unlocked"
Who wrote that log? Yeah.
This is one of the reasons I am hesitant to get any "digital car". I've read that government has backdoors to turn off engine or otherwise control cars.
The real threat is foreign bad actors. There's a global database that maps all VINs.
How many Americans have connected cars? How many are in garages? How many will not smell the exhaust before it kills them when every car in the country is started one night?
That's WMD
Source: I used to meet with the CISOs of all the global auto manufacturers annually. If you're a light sleeper, don't work in infosec.
interesting idea for what really amounts to a terrorist attack. any others? i figure you may have some other cool ones
personally, i'm more scared of our government in most cases. of course, foreign bad actors can and will do damage but over the long term the government, should it morph into something a bit more authoritarian than it is today, would have much more incentive and capability to do harmful things
i remember there was some leak nearly a decade ago already that showed NSA can access all smart TVs. some TVs even have microphones so that they can listen to what's going on in your living room. Makes you wonder if Orwell was a time traveler
I was a pretty big punk rock anarchist conspiracy theorist from my preteens through my early 20s. Now I work in the field. IMHO the US' version (not the GOP's) of world order, is the least scary. And with these psychos threatening murder and shit, the SOTU rebuttal about knee deep in blood... I've come to accept whatever dumb shit I or anyone I know is doing online, the govt doesn't give a shit. But as a FOSS nerd and EFF-donating privacy advocate, I feel you. My real fear is bad actors leveraging and extorting people.
As far as other examples.. Just imagine every single thing you know is connected, is under attack 100% of every day in every direction. Way before the current tension, the US has been in cyber warfare with Russia, China, North Korea, Iran, etc. Right now they're all trying to steal each other's classified data. Some off the books guys might be actively trying to meltdown a nuclear plant. The world is your oyster. Whatever you can imagine, it's happening. That's why those Industry meetups I attended exist. Lookup ISAC. Automotive, finance, healthcare, manufacturing... Every vertical has an org where the security leadership exchanges best practices in spite of corporate competition, "bc the bad guys are sharing tips, so why shouldn't we?"
I think you're talking about PRISM? Iirc they had a pipe directly from the Bell/At&t Telco building at the Brooklyn bridge but that could have been hearsay. But I'd argue he was just a historian, not a futurist. It's always been the same. Just different tools.
cant wait for children to break into that technology for giggles
I skimmed the headline too quickly when I saw "billionaire" and "panicked last call" then I thought she was somehow involved in insider trading for Tesla stock.
Annnnnd I'm becoming a worse person cuz this put a smile on my face. Honestly it's partially her fault for trusting Elon's company.
Would you say that if they died in a Ford? Chevy? Honda?
I would still smile but I would not blame her for choosing a Honda. Tesla is special because Elon is special.
When your Tesla is on fire, or sinking, you can play a fun little game called "Find the manual door release"
Wait....
....there isn't one?
There is, you just have to find it while the car sinks or the flames spread. It's not the normal button that a user might be accustomed to pushing to get out so they might not know where it is and finding it in time might be the difference between life and death. For front doors it's usually a lever somewhere but in some model Ys and the cybertruck the rear door release is hidden. under a mat in the door recess.
Im begining to think that billionares are just weak to water.
It's their magnetism.
It says everything.
A four-minute drive is like a 20-minute walk. If it was really that cold, I may have done the same thing.
The way you portray it, "it says everything," is not fair - and yes, I know we're talking about a billionaire. Like, she deserved to die because she didn't want to walk in the cold.
Her death shouldn't have happened the way it did. And again, yes, I know she's a billionaire, fuck billionaires, etc etc. But her mistake was her not being careful while driving, and potentially the car not being safe enough (e.g. doors jam-locked?)
It's 100% Tesla's fault. Mechanical way to open doors is not obvious and hidden, sometimes all together missing. And car relies on power to open the door, which runs out when submerged. Shit car with shit ideas. There's a reason why windows easily shatter on cars and Musk and his cult followers seem to think getting out of car in case of emergency is less important than sounding cool.
I bet her car didn’t have a shifting stalk. New Model X makes you shift using the touchscreen. I knew that idea sounded unsafe but holy moly.
What?
Swiping up to drive is the same direction as tap up to reverse from a previous model Tesla. Kind of like how trackpads and mouse scroll wheels work in opposite directions. I can see how it’s not so intuitive if the direction contradicts 35 years of muscle memory.
The pressure of the water against the door would've prevented her from opening it regardless of the door's mechanical features or power supply issues.
The windows not shattering is absolutely a Tesla design flaw, but there's no way that woman was ever going to open a door from inside a submerged car.
True, but there's some more.
Over here, ice roads are opened on typical winters on several smaller bays. The instruction to drivers is:
Typically, if a car sinks on an ice road, people are likely to get out. A crank-operated window is handy in such a case. But regardless of instruction, sometimes folks do die. :(
In general, I would not like to experience any sort of extreme incident in an over-engineered car. I'd prefer something from the 1970-ties, but with airbags.
Pressure takes a while to build up and you generally can open the door before car sinks enough, it's been tested. But even if you had to wait for car to fill with water, pressure would equalize then and you'd have no issues opening the door. Of course, you need to keep calm to use all of those tricks but car taking them away from you just increases risk of something like that happening.
Okay but a door that just works is going to be easier to get open before water pressure makes that impossible. Also, once there's enough water in the car, a mechanical door will open just fine. At which point you swim for it in the opposite direction the car is moving.
That's wouldn't be a factor once the water entered the car. The pressure equalises if there water is on both side of the door.
I agree with the sentiment that we shouldn't be praising people's deaths, but I want to point out the cold part
Texas Hill Country loosely covers an area around Fredricksburg Texas with San Antonio and Austin being just on the outskirts. Looking back at the weather reports, and not knowing the exact location, the temperature on 2/10 was a low of 45-65 degrees F. Considering the lows typically come in in the late hours of the night the more realistic temperature was somewhere between 50-75 degrees F.
Also, you can see the picture of the ranch in the article which also says it's a 900 acre ranch. 900 acres is only 1.4 sq miles. It's one thing to say a 4 min drive at 35 mph vs walking, but realistically it's a lot slower speed and thus a lot shorter walk.
Point taken, but regardless, it still doesn't merit some rando say "Driving instead of walking because it's cold? It says everything - NO WONDER she died!!!!!" It's a silly thing to conclude.
Absolutely agree
Yes, if it's cold, I will often make a 4-minute drive instead of walking 20 minutes from my guest house to my main house on my own property. It's so relatable to most Americans!
You just want to bash billionaires, and I've already addressed that in my original comment. If you don't want to understand my point, that's on you. Stop with the strawman arguments.
Ooh, we got ourselves a mind reader, folks!
Cold, in Texas? I mean, I'm sure it gets cold, but it's not Canada and people go on 20min walks in the dead of winter with their dogs there. Awful way to die, no question.
Oh I understand. But it's all about perspective.
Someone living in Siberia may say "cold in Canada? Silly geese."
I come from a tropical climate in which people wear jackets when it's 21 C (31 C being the average all year round.) In my mind, 21 degrees Celsius (about 68 F I think) was damn cold.
Of course, I now laugh about that.
But I won't judge her for not wanting to be cold and using a maybe seemingly reasonable way to do that.
My first trip to Florida from Ohio I was on a tour at Kennedy Space Center. When I got there I noticed all the people in jackets, it was 65F, I was perplexed. Now the opposite is also true, I hate weather over 80F, too dang hot.
See that's why living in Arizona is so much fun. There's some park ranger in Death Valley but what's the odds on running into them online?
Lol! That was funny :)
But anyway, Arizona can have cold snaps, right? Like 32 F at night in January? I know New Mexico and Texas do.
But that rarely happens at sea level in an actual tropical region, near the equator.
You should look at Northern Arizona. Southern Arizona is really hot and then Northern Arizona is high plains that can rival Canada for snow every few years. (Fun fact, when they were wondering where all the snow was for the Vancouver Olympics? It was in Arizona, we stole it fair and square!)
....I have places that are 5 minute drives from my house. Do you think I take 40 minute strolls each time I want to visit one?
Oh no
Anyways
Billionaire Kryptonite recipe.
One part billionaire, one part Tesla, two parts billionaire tears. Shake well and douse with copious volumes of lake water. Chef's kiss
So......Tesla are the new way to kill persons now?
https://youtu.be/DOW_kPzY_JY?si=LnGluWbOl-iD_WOg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo
There seems to be a lot of conflicting info on this for example the Tesla model and what exactly caused it to go into the water. Either way, make sure that your vehicle is going the direction you desire before you start moving fast enough to cause an issue.
although, this probably wouldn't have happened if the user had physical feedback to feel whether the shifter moved how they wanted it to or not. Fuck tesla. The rescue crews also had issues with getting into the tesla that wouldn't have happened on most vehicles.
So anyway, let's say you have a story and one minute of the story the character is driving peacefully to get to Walmart, but 60 seconds later she is in her Tesla completely submerged making a phone call. Maybe searching what to do via Goo... duck duck go. Wouldn't it be interesting for the reader to know a little bit more about the story?
For example, what was she wearing? Was her mechanic's name Frank or Dave? Was the water cold? What did she need at Walmart anyway?
Forget about the part of how the car actually made it into the water. What about the part where it started sinking? Did it sink slowly? Nose first? Did she know that the sand on your shoes could fracture the glass if it had hard enough material? Again, let's not even talk about how the Tesla went from the road to underwater... pretty obvious...a gigantic alien picked it up and tossed it in the water.
Epstein didn't kill himself either.
If your car ever gets submerged, unbuckle your seatbelt, roll the windows down and once the water gets high enough in the car, you can open the door or climb through the window. This is pure panic from someone who should know better.
In an old car with crank windows, that'll work. In a new car, the electrics have to still be working, and in a Tesla the OS has to still be running.
If you can't get the windows down before the water pressure seals them shut, it's still survivable without a glass breaker if you keep your wits about you and the car doesn't flip. You'd need to take a deep breath right before the interior completely fills with water and then just sit there until the pressure mostly equalizes. There was at least one reported case of someone in a submerged car specifically crediting their survival to Mythbusters successfully showing just that, but a variation of the scenario involving the car flipping while sinking into deeper water later proved to be much less survivable.
Someone else in this comment thread pointed out that Tesla's windows are laminated and not tempered so a glass break doesn't actually work on them.
I just did a quick "fact check" as I was writing this and apparently there are multiple cars that are going to laminated glass windows. I'll have to add that to the list of things I don't want and have to check next time I'm shopping for a car.
I’ve just learned that laminated glass is now mandatory across all models since 2020.
https://lifelinerescuetools.com/blog/3397/
Huh, me too. I appreciate your leaving this comment!
Yea if it ends up on it's side, gonna have a bad time.
Bottom door is stuck in the mud and the top door will be extra heavy to open. Ouch.
Not even that, really. Mythbusters just had the car flip upside down after entering the water and just the process of tumbling over was enough to get Adam to burn through his air and tap out (I don't remember if the car reached the bottom or not, but their setup left the car doors still facing sideways).
Yea, any orientation not rubber down need to open the windows asap
That’s why you need to have an emergency hammer with a belt cutter inside the car. Preferably one near every seat.
I’ve just learned that laminated glass is now mandatory across all models since 2020. You won't be able to break the glass.
https://lifelinerescuetools.com/blog/3397/
makes me wonder what you can do in the same situation in a cybertruck. I guess it would not be easy to break bulletproof glass
There is a mechanical emergency release on the doors. All my friends tend to find that if I don't preemptively tell them to press the button with the minus sign.
hidden behind the speakers.
Why are you in emergency situations in your car so often that all your friends have to know about the button?
If it's a Tesla I believe the emergency release will break the glass if it's fully rolled up.
It does not. I used the emergency release on my brother's Model 3 a few times. It may do a little bit of damage to the rubber window gasket each time. This will agitate the car owner.
Its more of a "can" thing rather than a "will" thing. I've had plenty of passengers use the emergency release instead of the real button and no broken windows yet. But I'm on my 4th windshield. Yeah rocks and ice chunks falling off an overpass.
I never said I was in an emergency situation. I said my friends tend to find the emergency release button rather than the one that actually opens the door.
I think in a car with electric motors if it were to back into a pond could still get maybe get the windows down before the 12 volt system shut down.