Biden calls for justice after footage released of police killing Black woman
Joe Biden has called on Congress to pass the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act, moments after shocking police video was released showing an Illinois officer fatally shooting Sonya Massey after she called police fearing a home intruder.
In his first public statement since dropping his bid for re-election, Biden said the shooting of Massey, a 36-year-old Black woman, by white Sangamon county sheriff’s deputy Sean Grayson, in her home in Springfield, after a dispute over a pot of boiling water, “reminds us that all too often Black Americans face fears for their safety in ways many of the rest of us do not”.
Biden, who is recovering from Covid at his home in Delaware, said Massey, “a beloved mother, friend, daughter and young Black woman … should be alive today”.
The thing I found most interesting about the whole interaction is that the first thing the police say to her when they make contact is "we looked around outside and didn't find anyone". Like they're challenging her to contradict them.
That is technically true, but it omits some very relevant information, i.e. that they found a vehicle parked nearby which had very clearly been broken into. That might not have happened that evening, but they don't know that. And they don't mention it when they talk to her. They instead start by saying that the reason she called (she heard a prowler) could not be confirmed. This statement sets up the entire tone of their interaction. There's nobody for them to arrest, so now they're clearly annoyed that she's wasting their time. They start treating her like a suspect instead of a victim. They want her name, her ID. They invite themselves in without cause and start looking through her house. It escalates from there, and ends in murder. The shooting officer then outright lies about the circumstances of the shooting, saying Massey was coming at him with a pot of boiling water and threatening him. She had put the pot down in the sink and was just standing in the kitchen. See, he'd turned his body camera off and didn't realize his partner was still recording.
This was a fucking extra-judicial execution.
I had a slightly different take on this - if she had said "OK thanks guys, I feel a lot better now. See you later." it probably all wouldn't have ended in murder.
What I can't understand is why they entered the house after that interaction and the video I saw didn't show.
After that it all went downhill aggressively. The tone of her "Jesus retribution" comment was actually very soft. The cop putting his hand on his gun and his incredibly aggressive tone was mental. Pure escalation with someone who obviously has mental health issues. She was never going to get out alive. :( It reminded me of that awful video of the young lad on the hotel floor who was executed. Very upsetting to watch.
To my knowledge, there was no reason or justification given. Grayson had turned off his body cam, and his partner had walked away to get the license plate of the car in the driveway. Grayson followed her into her home asking for ID. She seemed confused and scattered through the whole encounter. She might have been intoxicated or on medication. She might have had mental health problems. She may have even been using illegal drugs. But none of that is a crime if you're in your own home not bothering anyone. IMO, they were fishing for a reason to treat her as a suspect.
This video has a good breakdown with footage from both officers' body cams: https://youtu.be/7jP3FGj7syI
Just watching it now. Heads up you linked to near the end of the video so for anyone else this is the start.
https://youtu.be/7jP3FGj7syI
Very upsetting viewing so far tbh so exercise caution on whether or not you're up for viewing.
Edit: Oh God this just gets worse and worse the more I watch. He had a tazer and chose his gun. :( That poor woman. Still watching in pieces as it's busy here....
Just finished. It's a good analysis of a terrible situation. Zero justification for killing that woman. Just a little kindness and it all could have been avoided. The killer was a giant dick from start to finish.
Fixed the link. Thanks for the heads up!
No worries. Thanks for the link to the video. It was a good analysis, an unpleasant watch but I'm glad I saw it.
Also fuck that guy. Like really, really fuck that guy. Just a single ounce of empathy or kindness instead of frustration and anger and that woman would still be alive and her family wouldn't be grieving this.
But also I'm glad to see justice being done (so far).
I do feel sorry for his partner, who obviously early on knew the guy wasn't OK on that particular day, tried to smooth him out early on in the car but unfortunately wasn't able to. The whole thing is very sad.
Oh yikes. Thanks for the extra context. I'll give that video you linked a watch this evening.
Good comment but I think doing 'illegal drugs' in your own home is still illegal.
Splitting hairs, but technically being a user or addict isn't illegal, it's possession or possession with intent to traffic, which are the crimes. Might vary by region.
In any case, not justification for murder
EDIT: pardon me, my reply keeps going to the wrong comment.
Fair. I should re-word. Yes, if they had evidence that she was actually using, that might be grounds for arrest. But they'd still need cause to enter her house and arrest her, and just suspecting that she's using because she's acting weird isn't sufficient. Here's my re-word: Just being high in your own home is not illegal.
Oh for sure, it shouldn't be illegal. I'm Australian, it's not actually illegal to use or be on drugs here. But obviously possession, manufacture, selling etc is illegal.
But I believe in most states in the US it is illegal to use/be under the influence of drugs? Someone chime in if I'm wrong
Why even say this victim blaming bullshit? Yes, I read the rest of your comment, I just don't know why you felt the need to preface it by blaming an innocent dead woman for getting shot by the cop she called for help.
I shouldn't even need to say any of this, but she could have been cursing them off the moment they arrived for all I care. That's literally her constitutional right. And if it were a white woman, and she was cursing them from the moment they arrived, she'd still be alive right now 100%. Perhaps detained or arrested, and/or maybe a few bruises. But alive.
This country is going to need to have a reckoning. We failed Reconstruction, and in retrospect we probably should have let Sherman burn the South to the ground after the war, and now the chickens are coming to roost.
(Yes I know this was in Illinois. The legacy of slavery is everywhere).
I think you misconstrued my intent which was just that I didn't agree with this take from the person I was replying to:
I was merely trying to point out that I felt the cops (and murder cop in particular) were ready, keen even, to get away when they were standing on the porch. Murder cop seemed pissed off the entire time he was going to the call (his partner is constantly checking if he's OK), when searching the back yard and also while dealing with that lady so I was surprised he didn't take the opportunity to just fuck off back to his car. I felt like he really wanted to.
Yeah, tbh I'm not American but that does ring true with me as a frequent external viewer of horror stories like this.
To find an excuse to
punisharrest her.To find an excuse to
punish arrestmurder her.Regardless of context from the onset the dialogue was between someone in a position of power and someone who wasn't. Regardless of the reaction of the woman the cop was in the position of power. Any failing was on him and him alone. Men (yes I'm generalizing The Internet and that you are a man) need to understand this. White men (yes I'm generalizing The Internet and that you are a white man) need to understand this.
Regardless of the context this was about power. Shit needs to change.
I agree with you on everything you said (and yeah I'm a white lad). Beyond what you said, the dialogue also included so much frustration and ultimately murderous rage. It could have been dealt with so kindly and so easily and wasn't.
The one caveat I'll give is that I live an ocean away in a country where cops don't carry guns. We never face things like this and I am so fucking glad that we don't. This whole thing was tragic. I'm really upset about it. It honestly fucked up my evening but I can only imagine what it's done to her family. :(
"With great power, there must come great responsibility." Spider-Man comes up in a lot of my political arguments and it's an incredibly useful tool to get to some people.
I keep telling people that it isn't a Spider-Man quote. It is Uncle Ben. That man gets so little respect.
I’ve been saying for years that the movie franchise should have been called Uncle Ben feat. Spider-Man
I dont care what sex you are or what or who you are but Honest to god I dont even give a fucking shit what the fuck ypur point is I dont get on the internet for power tripping fucking whatever the fuck you are fucks to power tripe when all I am doing is minding my own business and honestly I dont really give a fuck. K? Understand? ass head fuck guy or girl whatever the fuck you are guy
Lolwut?
hi 8)
As a retired medic who has has to deal with my share of the mentally ill, I will try to add a little context perhaps.
What got them to enter the apartment is they probably realized they were dealing with a mentally ill person who was not properly on their meds, (we can't say for sure at this point - but it's as likely as not), and they then started what should have been a simple welfare check. Which can entail entry to observe the person and the general living conditions. Cops do welfare checks everyday, multiple times a day. The next step if they determine there is a problem, is to request medical assistance, an ambulance, to deal with the person. The cops are to remain in scene and assist if needed - i.e. help talk the patient into seeking medical help or sometimes stop an assault on EMS. But that's what SHOULD have happened.
Instead a straight up murder was committed.
That might be the excuse they felt they would be able to use but I have a hard time believing these assholes cared about her mental health.
Yea Daniel Shaver. This is the exact same video and I consider that the most sensless police murder we have on film.
That's his name. Thank you. I knew his first name but didn't want to Google it to be reminded of it any more than necessary tbh. It's one of those occasional intrusive thoughts videos for me that I'm sure we all have our own little library of.
I still can't believe the killer got away with it. Daniel had no way to get out alive.
Turning your body camera off deliberately or knowingly failing to maintain it to keep it running should automatically cause the cop to be treated as a an unreliable witness and as a suspect for any potential crime happening
Turning your body camera off should be a crime that results in prison time.
Should be evidence of 1st degree murder.
There shouldn't even be a fucking power button on those things. It should just be ON ALL THE GODDAMN TIME from the picosecond a pig's shift starts. Zero exceptions. If it gets shut off, you get one warning, happens again gtfo and we pull your pig license. If it happens and you're involved in a police activity that results in injury or death, fucking fired and arrested pending full investigation AND we pull your pig license even if it's your first fuckup.
Not only an unreliable witness, but ineligible for the immunity from the law that (for whatever godforsaken reason) comes with the badge and gun. They should be treated as a civilian from the instant they turn their body cam off.
Well duh, what to you expect to happen to a black woman who wastes police time?
This is what they train for.
ACAB
From other articles I've read she was schizophrenic and a neighbor had said that this was a fairly common occurrence.
Oh dang, the punishment for schizophrenia in America is execution? You all have it rough over there.
Having mental illness in America might as well be a crime. Local jails are just mental healthcare facilities without the mental healthcare.
sad that there is no way to contradict this since any judge will side with the cop and his buddies on the force who backed his story up
and police reform is not even talked about with the candidates anymore plus Biden has completely forgotten his campaign promise of police reform
A) not true.
B) not even remotely relevant
Democrats tried to pass police reform bills in congress multiple times this term and were blocked by Republicans at every turn. Biden did what he was able to do and enacted an executive order that was the most comprehensive police reform action in decades. But there are limits to what he can do. So please fuck off with your attempt to turn this into Biden's fault by telling lies.
the current police problem was in part grown by Biden's efforts during his fifty years as a politician
Partially true but irrelevant. You're shifting the goalposts because your first argument was a total lie. How about you admit it was wrong before you start shifting things to pretend you were "actually" correct because some other only tangentially related information is useful.
Biden is literally begging lawmakers to pass the policing act he put together. He isn't a dictator, it's up to Congress and the Senate to pass these bills
This is not talking about it, huh? Thanks for not even reading the summary in your neverending quest to get Trump elected.
he was talking much harder before when he was on the campaign trail making it out like he was serious about pushing for national reform
Okay, so the officer orders her to take a pot of boiling water off the stove, and then shoots her in the face for doing so.
No wonder those charges came so fast.
The crazy thing seemed fairly relaxed until she said she "rebuked him unto Jesus". Seemed like it went from "haha I don't want to be around a person carrying boiling water", and she seemed to respond jokingly with the Jesus thing, which immediately made the cop respond as if she just pointed a gun at him?
Does this guy think this lady is some kind of biblical sorcerer?
Can't wait for the defense being:
"She said she was going to 'rebuke me in the name of Jesus' and I felt my soul was in imminent danger from this woman and her boiling cauldron of witchcraft"
Trump appointed judge: Sustained!
See my other comment about where Springfield, IL, is; it's not out of the question.
This is the result of indoctrinating children into magical thinking and giving them guns.
I definitely don’t think it was a joke. Her twitchy nature and constant fear strike me as someone facing a mental health issue. Specifically schizophrenia as she said she was hearing people around the house. All that said, a cop should be able to recognize those signs immediately and should have used less lethal force at the most. His first instinct shouldn’t have been to bridge the gap and get closer after he felt “threatened.”
Schizophrenic people still have a sense of humor.... To me it came off as if she recognized that the cop was afraid of her and made a snappy comeback, because it's generally offensive to be accused of wanting to mame strangers with boiling water.
Rebuke just means to criticize, it's not an attack, or even aggressive. To rebuke someone to God, is just saying your going to complain about their behavior to God. Tbh the moments before she was killed seem to me the most coherent and responsive she behaved during the entire encounter.
This was what I got from it too. She was offended that they would think that she would attack them with boiling water.
It's kinda like she said "don't bring that Hateful ideas into my house." She was warding of the bad juju and disagreeing at the same time.
I think she's also not dumb and knows what officers are capable of and might have knew where things were going. The police were escalating the situation for no good reason. And she was scared, cause they kill people who are black for very little. In this case they killed her for listening to them.
Not when they’re paranoid. Which she is now confirmed to have been a paranoid schizophrenic. It runs in my family and I’ve seen it quite frequently and heard the stories of others in my family that have seen it. When you know the signs it’s incredibly easy to spot, and police should be trained on the simple signs to figure this out and better help them keep a situation calm.
Article
Or just maybe, we should have other workers available than tinhorn sheriff wannabes with guns in our local governments that you can call to de-escalate situations. But no no, that'd be too much like defunding the police.
A good friend of mine lives in Burlington, VT and has schizophrenia. There is a service there, First Call, that will send people trained to recognize mental illness and deescalate the situation only getting police involved as a last resort.
Or at least that's how it is supposed to go. Said friend was still drug away by police with First Call on the scene before. At least they weren't shot, I guess. Still if they are ever in need of outside intervention I saved the number in my phone and I'm sure as shit not calling the police on them.
I wish more cities had a similar service.
She actively thought people were outside her house trying to get in. That’s what you send the police for. A counselor can’t ask someone to go away if there was an actual threat and they were armed. This is one of those events where a police officer was the best initial call and then as things continued the way they were they should have brought in a counselor.
And the fact that he turned his camera off right before he killed her makes this first degree for sure
I don’t think he turned it off before he shot her, just that he didn’t have it on until after he shot her.
This is still murder and he’s a fuckin pig that should rot in the prison industrial complex he feeds. Fuck him and his cop buddies. But I didn’t get the info from this article that he turned it off himself. Just didn’t turn it on in the first place, which he’s supposed to do before every interaction.
All pigs not running their cameras are demonstrating premeditated intent.
Just glad they're not messing around with this one, and went ahead with the three charges of first degree murder.
And wouldn't you know it, it's thanks to bodycam footage that we have irrefutable proof of this clear and unquestionably excessive use of force against an innocent victim.
The bodycam footage that thousands of police departments throughout the US are still pushing back against because they want people to think it impedes their ability to appropriately deliver justice, when it is actually, finally, allowing justice to take place. The necessity of which was caused primarily by police brutality against people of color, just like this situation, where there was no witness account other than the cop's side of the story.
If this happened ten years ago, back before bodycams became more widespread, the cop would have gotten off with a short paid suspension and no other punishment, because all there would be is the cop's one-sided account of how she clearly assaulted him with a deadly weapon and reached for his gun.
If I were a cop I'd be happy to have a body cam because it would help me cover my ass in case someone accused me of something.
But this attitude is probably why I'm not a cop.
I had a similar experience with something that Lemmy would generally oppose. I used to be concerned that Google kept track of my location and nearly everything I do on my phone. However, I was accused of something serious that typically cannot be disproven otherwise, and since it's something perpetrators often get away with, people tend to believe the accuser without evidence. When that happened, I was so happy that Google had a record of my location because it would have demonstrated that I wasn't where the accuser said I was, nor did I have the contact they said I had. I not only offered to show my location history to investigators, but asked them to so it would clear my name. I guess my sincerity was evident because they didn't even bother and dropped the whole thing shortly after.
I agree with you. If I were a cop, I'd want every second of my day indisputably recorded to clear my name in case I'm ever falsely accused of something. I don't know what it is about me. Maybe my autistic traits make me seem suspicious or like a careless asshole to others, maybe my evident self-doubt make me an easy target for predators, or maybe my lack of conformity and unique style of accomplishing things give people an uncomfortable intuitive feeling about me, but I think I get accused/blamed for a lot of things I didn't do or had any intent of doing more than normal. I know I would eventually be accused of some bs and would need evidence to demonstrate my innocence.
Are body cams really providing justice? Where is Sonya's justice? Hailing body cams as the ultimate police reform is the type of thing I'd expect a cop to say. For people who have been experiencing this racist police violence for generations, it's clear that body cams are at best a half measure, and at worst a means of documenting all of the brutal murders that pigs continue to carry out on innocent people while body cams are running. The answer isn't in body cams, but in comprehensive police reform. So long as the pigs are running around with sus norse tattoos, toxic masculinity ("nah im good" -cop who just developed a tremor in has hand after holding in the brains of a gasping woman for 5 min), guaranteed firearms, no psychological training, gang support via departments, body cams aren't really going to do shit to protect at-risk people.
I am very critical of this ultra pro body cam discourse. It seems like a distraction. Make no mistake, there is no justice today because of the body cams present for Sonya's execution.
I suppose the definition of justice is flexible, between preventative justice and restorative justice and so on, but in this case I am referring specifically to holding guilty people accountable for their actions. There will be no making right what happened here, not by any stretch of the imagination, and there is still a lot more work that needs to be done to make sure this sort of thing never happens again. But while I am sure it is of little consolation to Sonya's family, her murderer is going to prison.
I know there are long-standing charicatures in media of the "corrupt cop" type of character shooting some innocent person and then planting a knife or drugs on them to make it look like self-defense, but that wouldn't exist if there wasn't some grain of truth to it.
With the body cam footage that had been released, there is no question of his guilt. There's no way for the police to cover this up by painting another innocent victim as a criminal, dragging her name through the mud, just to keep this racist scumbag on payroll and free to keep terrorizing the people he's supposed to protect. The racists don't have to gather in droves to protect this monster and put a community through hell to further some disgusting agenda or another.
It doesn't fill the void, but it is some degree of justice which is better than none.
... You act as if cops don't love bodycams too lol.
Everyone but the people doing dumb shit loves accountability. Cops love that it gets bad apples out before they spoil anything too.
https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/body-worn-cameras-what-evidence-tells-us
Too late!
Dude, the bad apples spoiled things long before any of us were born.
That's not really how churn works but okay.
Unless by apples you mean society in general, because people are everywhere. But that's more indicative of your bushel, not ours lol.
No, I mean the police in general. Do you really not know how police were even worse to black people before the Civil Rights act?
... so... you're in agreement with them lol?
How did you even come close to getting that from what I said?
It's a hard time trying to understand what you're even saying. You're agreeing or even qualifying what I wrote, but replying in a tone like you're not lol. It's hard to take it seriously.
I am neither. I am telling you that there are no "few bad apples" to get out of the police because the whole thing is already rotten to the core and has been for a very long time since there's never been reformation, just a few laws to stop some of the most egregious behavior.
So maybe you're not familiar with churn then. Churn is the turn over rate for employees. I also think you misunderstand what reformation means, how long it takes, and that there's no tipping point of when something is reformed or not. It wasn't magically Roman Catholicism to Lutheranism after Luther penned the 95 Theses lol.
You already said that civil rights have gotten better.
You already agreed there are new laws and increased oversight regularly.
Employees turn over as there is natural churn. Combined with churn from increased oversight and scrutiny preventing bad people or stopping heinous shit. You also have lawsuits and criminal proceedings to get rid of bad police.
How do you propose 1 works without 2 and 3? How do you posit that police aren't better almost year by year if the entire bushel is spoiled?
No, I said the civil rights laws exist, making the most egregious behavior harder to get away with.
I'd tell you to ask George Floyd if things have gotten better. Or Breonna Taylor. Or Philando Castile. Or Sonya Massey. Except none of them can tell you anymore.
There are no "good apple" cops. None.
Conservatives have been backing the cop, as expected, and trying to make her seem like a dangerous criminal
But she picked up the pot... so she was just following orders! Conservatives love people who were just following orders!
Yea, it's fucking ridiculous. Hopefully it turns voters off Trump and we can get actual legislation in place to enforce body cam usage.
6 departments in 4 years, this cop shouldn't have had a job period. This department is partly liable for this just by employing him
Make police officers individually responsible for carrying insurance for their job.
If they can't behave then they won't be able to afford the insurance as the insurance company will raise the fees, and then they can't get a job they shouldn't be doing in the first place
we need to incept this into the minds of insurance heads, they'll jump on the money.
I saw the video, the cop had absolutely no justification for it. I don't care what his religious believes are, "I rebuke you in the name of Jesus" is not a valid reason. What's heartbreaking is what her last words were: "I'm sorry".
In a just world the cop would get a minimum of 20 years and possibly even a life sentence or capital punishment.
I'm confused. I may have missed it, but why are religious beliefs even in this conversation? Did he say that he shot her for Jesus or something?
I agree that this POS should rot, the video just shows a murderer murdering an innocent person.
Edit: I missed the part of the video where the lady says the Jesus stuff. I see what you are saying now.
That was worse than I was picturing. She immediately dropped to her knees while saying sorry (twice, panicked) , with her hands up and they shot her. She had released the pot the moment they got aggravated. It's such a shame that this keeps happening and the only response police have is "more money please."
Just tired of reading about this shit while our DOJ twiddles its thumbs and our legislature waves little "Blue Lives Matter" flags in the faces of the survivors.
There's a reason ACAB is a thing. They're the most destructive gang in the world.
Start at the top, every chief, superintendent and supervisor should be on trial. They should all serve time and lose their chance to police..
For those not in the know, Springfield, IL, is the state capital (capitol?). It's waaaay down in the generally rural middle of the state, with a 2022 population of just over 113,000. It is not anything like the Chicago metro area.
Capital. A Capitol is the building where the legislature presides.
Thanks, I'm too old to be president.
Uh, it's Kepitill
nein, das ist kapital
I spelled “capitol” instead of “capital” in my elementary school spelling bee and I’m still bitter about it
It's weird and dumb and arbitrary, but just to answer your uncertainty, it's "capital" in this context.
Capital means, in vague terms, the highest of something. So in regards to a city, it refers to the most important city (for the government, anyways) in a given administrative region (e.g., state capital, national capital).
Capitol, with an O, refers specifically to the building where the US government is housed and the hill it sits on.
I don't know if they have a shared etymology but it wouldn't surprise me.
According to etymonline.com, capital comes from "Latin capitalis 'of the head'". Capitol comes from "Latin Capitolium, [the] name of the temple of Jupiter Optimus Maximus, protector of the city, on the Capitoline Hill in ancient Rome". The American architecture "deliberately evokes Roman republican imagery". The "relationship of Capitoline to capital is likely but not certain".
Interesting! Thanks for making me look that up!
This guy spent no time talking about the stovetop...
Well, in this particular incident that the post is about, there was definitely a stovetop that had a pot of boiling water on it. That's apparently worth shooting someone over...
Thank you. You may carry on
It's almost exactly like one of the many generic looking suburbs, maybe a little ghetto, definitely not Hicksville some some other places. There's pockets of suburban areas in Central Illinois such as Bloomington/Normal and Champaign/Urbana
If innocent people are killed by police then it should lead to a federal independent investigation. Don't care if it was an accident (chasing a suspect) or direct.
And the police department’s policies shouldn’t exonerate them by default. When departments investigate themselves, they just say “our policy encourages the police to kill anyone they see in this situation, so the officer’s actions were in line with our policies.”
That, and not allow it to stay open so no one is at fault. Point blank- innocent person dies independent investigation.
"our policies" = this is how we want our cops to treat you, suck it up.
I never understood how “our policies” is legally binding and defensible in court. I hope the sovereign citizens don’t catch on.
yeah, wtf. my policy is to steal cars, can't be held liable, it's my policy.
makes zero sense.
Start with getting rid of qualified immunity and make cop training more like it is in civilized countries.
The George Floyd Justice in Policing Act does exactly that!
You mean instead of Israeli training? You don't like you're cops trained by tHe MoSt MoRaL aRmY iN tHe WoRlD?
Right? Let's just pass another bullshit bill with a victims name instead of doing anything like that that will actually help the problem though.
Oh look someone who doesn't comprehend how governments work.
The president today in one hour could end qualified immunity. Tell me what isn't true about that? In fact, even states could make their own legislation to make their states police forces not have it either.
I mean the entire precedent is based on a court case Pearson v. Callahan which can be overturned just like Roe v. Wade was. (Also Harlow v. Fitzgerald)
Bit please do educate me on how anything I said isn't true and bless me with your knowledge of this "government" you speak of.
I'm not trying to victim blame but please please everyone in america, stop calling the police when you need help.
If you have a problem and you call the police, you now have two problems.
My assessment of a typical police officer is that it is someone that:
Because of this victim mentality, they have created a strong cultural value of protecting their own. In their minds, it's good guys (police) vs bad guys (citizens). This results in an authoritative approach with the main tactic being lethal violence and protecting each other from the consequences of the policies that handicap them. The last thing I would want is to be around a police officer that is triggered into fight-or-flight mode. At that time, everyone becomes enemy and they are the law.
I have been in life or death situations as the person that has to maintain control, so I have an idea of what it is like to be in a police officer's position. The main ideas that I consider are that (1) I have no idea who will be dangerous until they become dangerous, and (2) I am ultimately responsible. As such, when I interact with police, I take that into account. When I get pulled over, I have a system. While pulling over, I am already pulling out my wallet and placing it on the dash. Once I'm pulled over, I take the keys and place them on the dash as well. I open all of the windows and sunroof, place my hands on the steering wheel at 10 & 2, and wait for them to approach the car. If I have any weapons in the car, I tell them what and where they are as they arrive to the vehicle^1^. I then only conduct behaviors they ask of me and announce what and how I plan on doing. For example, if they ask me for my registration, I tell them that it is in the glove compartment and ask them if it is okay that I go in there to get it. When they give permission, I do that slowlyyyy making sure that they can see everything that is in my hands at all times. I absolutely give no attitude whatsoever. Btw, my car has a a front- and rear- view dash cam recording, so I have my own evidence.
I'm not saying cops are awesome and we should kiss their asses, but I'm also trying to be compassionate for their position given the situation we are all in during those interactions. Like I said, the last thing I want to do is trigger a cop into fight-or-flight mode. Unless someone is in serious physical danger, it is not the time to stand up for your rights using any form of aggression, verbal or physical. Stay quiet, only answer if you have to (e.g. what's your name?), do not admit to violating any laws whatsoever, and comply with legal orders. If they violate any of your rights, there's a chance they gave you a get out of jail free card. For example, if you clearly told them not to come into your house and they do anyway, then any evidence they get cannot be used against you. Make sure you have your own cameras recording! On the other hand, if you try to physically prevent them from doing something, you're fucked whether you were in the right or not.
Regarding the murder of this lady
She was innocent as fuck. There was no need to even have the firearm out even when she had the pot of boiling water. He could have easily dodged it from that far way. If anything, he could have used a taser or stepped back. Still, do what you can to stay alive in those situations. If you are mentally present with a cop in your house, do not give them any reason whatsoever to fear you anymore than they already do. Whether you were in the right or not, you can't fight for police reform when your already dead.
Also, while I'm ragging on them, they had terrible muzzle awareness. The murdering cop stepped in front of the other cop's muzzle several times, while the other cop didn't point their firearm elsewhere when that happened. WTF.
1: I have been pulled over several times while carrying a firearm in the vehicle. In all cases, what they did was get the firearm, unload the magazine, and clear the chamber. They were super chill about it.
I'm not from the US, but that sounds like bad advice.
There is no bad situation that police can't make worse.
It should be bad advice! But sadly, all too often american police just escalate the situation and people and dogs end up dying. They kill over 1000 people per year in this country.
I am quite aware of that from the US news. Nevertheless, please be aware that there are people who take social media at face value. So please don't make any recommendations that go against common sense.
I don't concern myself with those who can't do their own critical thinking.
What you do is not critical thinking at all. I don't think you've ever read up on that. What you do is not in any way better than Trump and his minions do. It's just polemics with no substance whatsoever.
Critical thought is when you take a random shitposter's orders and don't make your own decisions.
Sure, make the world your own.
I'm not claiming to be doing any critical thinking with any of the posts I've made in this thread. I'm saying that anyone reading that shit should add that opinion to their personal collection of information and make their own decisions on what to do with it.
For example, you took that information and decided to piss and moan. That's your choice, I'm not judging.
Most other people, with the "common sense" you speak of, nodded and kept scrolling.
In any case, if you find yourself in america and you hear somebody fucking around at your window and maybe you're not white, you can decide what to do with all that gathered information you've been collecting.
In my experience as a US citizen, the police are never there to help. They are there to screw you over and they are liars.
Come visit, see the sights, call the police!
Rip.
If you're in the US and a person of color that's good advice. I'm from third world country and I find the police in my area courteous, of course there are still bad apples out here but they are becoming a minority.
"Away from the hot steaming water? Oh, I’ll rebuke you in the name of Jesus." was apparently enough for a white police officer to pull out his gun and shoot an innocent black woman three times.
What the fuck?
This is legitimately worse than what happened to George Floyd. Like... I genuinely feel angry for the relatives of this poor woman after watching that bodycam footage.
They've slowly grown empowered into full-on racism, so it's no wonder they also generally have no problem supporting apartheid and genocide in the Middle East.
They who?
No, in fact they would consider the doctor too "woke" for them.
Well played
Does the proposed bill ensure American police get like three years training to become community-oriented and not a power tripping police officers?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cop_City
Exactly the reverse, actually
That has nothing to do with the bill which hasn't passed. this feels like people blaming the New Green Deal for things.
For anyone wondering how this happens, please watch this, yeah, I know, it's 30 minutes... I assure you it's worth it.
NSFW language.
https://youtu.be/Wf4cea5oObY
The important bit:
https://youtu.be/Wf4cea5oObY#t=11m32s
Police suffer from paranoid delusions that they are the "thin line" between good and evil and that they are the ultimate example of virtue. They justify their own actions as for the greater good. It is a job that requires you lack critical thinking skills and officers are brainwashed into enforcing a certain ideal puratain society where one must be obedient to authority and work hard and suffer to be a moral and good person.
They are literally trained to think like that. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/08/warrior-cop-class-dave-grossman-killology.html
A TL;DW would likely get more views.
Essentially: Cops are taught that everyone and everything is trying to kill them and anything that seems remotely dangerous is a lethal threat they need to "neutralize". Also, as soon as you let your guard down, you're dead. This leads to overreactions and unjust killings...
Now, that's not entirely wrong as police frequently deal with higher levels of unknown dangers but in this case...holy shit wtf?
I fully support others spending a half hour learning about what law enforcement are taught. If you've not seen something like this before then it's definitely worth your time.
I want to add that Park Rangers are law enforcement. They've exceptionally high standards for hiring. And, the pay sucks.
I've broken rules in many parks, sometimes with good reason and sometimes without, usually very safely but once or twice definitely not. I've been "busted" about a dozen times by Park Rangers.
Every single time I've been treated with dignity, respect, and honoring the spirit of justice over the letter of the law. I've not been punished when I thought I should be, then been told that's the reason there's no punishment. And, when I've been punished I've agreed with the severity and nature of it wholeheartedly. It's quite literally the opposite of what I've experienced as a colored man in big cities.
Note: I watched the entire thing when it came out whenever that was.
Thanks for posting I enjoyed watching that
Yea...that cop is getting life in prison. There's no defense for that.
This cop bounced between MULTIPLE police departments.
The core is fucking rotten. Prison is like slapping a bandaid on cancer.
Unfortunately, that's all we got. There's not a cure all for this one. So, like cancer, cut away the bad parts, apply some chemo, and pray it doesn't come back.
4/5 cops are good people. We don't have an answer for smashing all the bad ones at once.
No. They're not. If they were, they'd be stopping this themselves. This guy shot her. What about the other officers that were there? At least one other is mentioned in the article. Why didn't they immediately draw on him and stop him from attacking this woman?
Every time we hear about one of these bad cops, there's other cops just standing around doing nothing at best, and helping at worst.
No 'good people' are cops. If they were good people when they went in, they either get fired, get mysteriously dead on the job, or stop being good. There are no other options.
absofuckinglutely.
Yep, even though this went from 0-1000 in one “I rebuke you in the name of Jesus”, that other officer pulls his weapon as soon as murderer cop pulls his and doesn’t say shit to stop the situation.
Lady is complying with everything and has no weapon. Then she gets shot three times?
Then what's your solution?
Training and accountability? It's not fuckin rocket appliance
We could start with holding police officers responsible. It's great that they charged this one, but why aren't the other police there being charged as accomplices since they took no action to prevent the shooting?
So here's a few simple starter thoughts.
Establish an external agency with the mandate of prosecuting police. They have their own prosecutorial system, their own investigators, their own prosecutors, their own courts and their own judges, completely unconnected to the prosecutorial system the police work with. You cannot have the same people that work together one day and rely on each other be the ones to investigate each other, it doesn't work. Not even a separate 'internal affairs division' is enough.
Any police officer who discharges their weapon, for any reason, is immediately suspended, and any pay is withheld until an investigation for why the weapon was discharged is completed. The investigation of course is conducted by that external agency.
If a police officer discharging a weapon causes injury or death, all police officers on the scene are suspended and their pay withheld until the investigation is over.
If the police officer who discharged their weapon is charged with assault, murder, whatever, then all other officers at the scene are charged as accomplices, unless they took proactive action to prevent the first officer from committing their illegal action. Think of it like felony murder - if you and a group of friends are committing a crime and someone is murdered, you are all prosecutable under felony murder even if you had no direct hand in the murder at all.
That's probably a good start, it may not solve all the problems, but it'd be a lot better than what's being done now, which is very, very little. I'd say an even better thing to do in addition would be to have every current police officer purged and never work in law enforcement again. All police organizations kinda need a clean slate with fresh people and no organizational momentum and culture carryover from how it's happening now, because a lot of what needs to change is organizational culture, and just altering the rules is more difficult than rebuilding a completely new organizational culture from the ground up.
At least you offered a solution. But it's batshit crazy.
That's impossible...there's not enough people out there qualified to replace the current police force.
I do like an external review of every discharge of a weapon, but I think the immediate suspension is too much.
The accomplice bit I'm on the fence. In this case, the other officer was in shock I think. He's not going to shoot his partner after the fact, which would be the only reasonable action. He could have arrested him I guess, but that all happened pretty quick)
(Really put yourself in that situation...a guy who you trust with your life pulls his gun, says "I'm going to shoot you in the face, and proceeds to shoot the person in the face...Personally, I'd have total brain lock in complete and utter shock of that tragic fuck up).
IMO...I still like some cops. In my interactions with them 8 of 10 have been professional, INCLUDING having one draw on me once (it's a dumb story, and I fucked up).
I think we CAN reform the shit out of the force in general, but you can't start from a place where "all cops are bad." They aren't.
During the My Lai massacre , the US Army committed war crimes on the civilian population. A helicopter crew noticed it and pointed weapons at the squadron to stop.
The Vietnam war gave the military a bad name. Years of work, promise to hold oneself to a higher standard, clean up the rotten fucks, and remembering what it means to serve did people finally turn around.
There's no "All Military Is Bad" calls.
4/5 my ass
cops that don't speak up against their coworkers are complete shit as well. when you hang out with turds, you tend to smell like shit. looking the other way while your coworker abuses people is you being an accessory. there is no way there weren't signs this guy was trash and his coworkers covered it, they're just as guilty, which is why ALL cops are bastards, otherwise they wouldn't be cops after seeing the corruption and abuse. fuck cops and cop mentality.
If your 4/5 was true we would see more good cops standing up against these 1/5. But i have yet to see that happen.
Cops are the people suffling "the bad ones"around, they're the ones creating places for bad cops to flourish in. You don't help this guy keep his job and remain a good person.
Uvalde sure has a worse ratio than that.
The math you're using to get that 4/5 ratio and reality need to have a little sit-down and work out a few.... discrepancies.
It's not really holding up very well when, you know, you consider the facts.
Not even Qualified Immunity?
Qualified Immunity protects against civil suit, not criminal charges.
What a sick human that cop is. Dude should fucking fry.
The way he behaved after he shot her is what seals the deal. He didn't want to waste the bandages from his first aid kit on her.
He's a complete psychopath.
He even starts the enocunter aggressively outside. Like he’s angry he had to look outside and is taking it out on her.
The tone of his voice, his body language, and everything about this man screams psychopath.
Bro, you run the justice department do something about it.
Do an official act about it.
What federal law did these cops break that the DOJ could prosecute?
He's doing about the entirety of what he can do right now by urging congress to pass this bill, he's already signed several executive orders on police reform.
Well, isn't murder a crime? There's your broken law...
That's not a federal law, murder within a state is charged and tried by the state the murder was committed in. The only exceptions to this would be murders on federal property, or possibly murders on federal officials AFAIK.
Retroactive hire the victim through executive order
Not when it is part of an official government act, at least according to the SCOTUS.
Strafe a hospital, bomb a wedding, waterboard a migrant, rape a nun. It's all good, so long as you're doing it on the payroll of a state institution.
Why he gotta get all political now 😭😢
Nothing to lose.
Fire away fire away 🎵🎶
I am titaaa-neee-um!
they are messing around with this
Biden made police reform part of his campaign promise
That's rich coming from a guy who just hosted a genocidal, racist fascist at our capitol. Fuck Genocide Joe and his psuedo-concern about human rights.
Why is the color specified at all? I don't care if police is killing black, white, or blue. They're killing, that's the core problem. Abolish police
Because the police is not shooting white women on the regular.
Her skin color likely played an important role in her being murdered.
Real Colbert Energy on this post.
So long as people continue to see the police as a legitimate tool of racial suppression, they're going to defend racist officers as a proxy for their own genocidal beliefs.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-fund-the-police-biden-says-at-state-of-the-union
How quick will mainstream Dems forget about police reform after THIS election? It was already a weak point for Harris.
Everything we saw in 2020 and no (AFAICT) meaningful change.
The Republican candidate is a real policing iconoclast
so that makes it okay for the Democrats to sit on it because that is way better than actively participating?
think we went through this with Germany already not just Nazis but the quiet people in power who never spoke up
No Democrats are "sitting on it". They passed a House bill in 2020 which Senate Republicans killed. They passed another in 2021 which died over disputes about qualified immunity and because Republicans objected to a national police misconduct database. Then Republicans took the House in 2022 and obviously weren't going to pass it again.
Stop blaming Democrats for Republican intransigence.
I haven't so much as heard them talk about the issue in I don't even know how long. (Aside from Biden saying we should give cops MORE funding) But now, 3ish months out from the election...
Should they stop trying to do things as they approach an election?
What are they trying to do? I see a soundbite. An empty platitude. D doesn't have the votes. No one, including Biden, thinks this bill will now get passed because he made this statement.
And them saying it last month, six months ago, 12 months ago, or 18 months ago would have been different how?
The person you’re replying to is a contrarian troll. No matter what you say, they’re gonna blame Democrats and not Republicans. Because they are a troll. stop, feeding the troll.
so Chinese dissidents or any political dissident such as Martin Luther King Jr or Jewish people in Germany during the Nazi Reign are by this definition contrarian trolls that denounced the majority persuasion?
Lmao
Did you really just compare yourself to Martin Luther King?
no was not
was pointing out the fact that as time passes the labels people get stuck with might sound different years later
Martin Luther King was someone who denounced the majority persuasion and we all benefited from the progress born of his struggles and sacrifices to this day
that was my point
It would have been pretty hard for me to call it empty platitudes for votes, aside from the 1 month ago window. But what would really cook my goose would be if they'd said it 18 months, 12 months, 6 months, 1 month, 3 months, 9 months and a shitload of other times ago. The way you message on issues that matter to you.
Funny, I don't remember bringing up Republicans at all. I already expect nothing good from them.
Guess I should excuse any sort of inaction from Dems then. Good point!
It’s just what we’re stuck with until we get rid of first past the post
How shall we do that?
Call or write your reps and tell them you want it; more specifically there is the proposed Fair Representation Act which looks pretty good on paper to me. There’s also a non profit lobbying group called FairVote that is seeking Ranked Choice voting in federal and state elections.
But I'm poor
I don’t see how that’s an impediment to contacting your reps
It's an impediment to them caring
They don’t ask for your income when you call. Also, defeatism is the status quo’s best friend. It takes a lot of noise and work to move the needle.
The status quo's second best friend is directing our efforts towards strategies that don't work.
I think we should vote only for candidates who oppose FPTP. If you don't think that's likely to work, then you're a defeatist!
That sounds like a nice way to get another Trump term, but hey, fuck me for giving you my opinion when you asked for it.
You are talking about voting. I'm already voting for them. Aren't I at least allowed to criticize them while also voting for them, or is that a bridge too far?
Democrats tried to pass the GFJPA in 2020, then again in 2021, and then Republicans took the House. All three times it was blocked by Republicans.
Which Republicans made Biden say this? https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/watch-fund-the-police-biden-says-at-state-of-the-union
'Fund them with resources and training' is controversial to you?
It is when it's not paired with calls for oversight regarding how that training is used and specific results of said training.
I'm starting to sympathize with the 2A folks who are like "why more gun laws when we don't enforce the ones we have" but in a different way.
What training (using only this singular current example) would you say should be required for an officer of the law to know he shouldn't shoot a woman in the face with her hands up from 10 + feet away when he was under no threat? Do you need training to know that's wrong? Training beyond what every single person given state power to kill should receive at an absolute minimum?
All that heartache and pain, and the final net result was Biden calling for more police funding.
And before you get into your don't blame dems thing again, I routinely post the meme below for how unreasonable people are about blaming Democrats. I get it.
But you'll forgive me for being a bit cynical when I hear not a damn peep from anyone in the administration about police reform all the way from "Biden says fund the police" to "Hey it's 3 months before the election, cops killed someone again (which has happened many, many times since then), so NOW we've got these platitudes trickling out again."
I get it, here's the evergreen infographic I post over and over that makes your exact point. But damn I'd like some indication of "give a shit" other than when there's an election close by.
I'm not claiming to know what kind of training would help, just that "train them better" isn't a particularly controversial statement. I'm also not arguing against police reform, which is desperately needed. I'm simply observing that Republicans are to blame for the GFJPA repeatedly not advancing in Congress. Were there a more significant Democratic majority in Congress, their intransigence would be irrelevant and reform would have already been implemented. Voters simply didn't send that sizeable majority to DC.
It's a controversial statement when it's the closest we've been able to come to anything resembling police reform, and is frankly insultingly little after everything that has transpired around those sorts of issues. If you don't like how angry I am about it, I'm sorry to tell you that telling me not to be angry isn't going to make me less so. I'm far more pissed off now that everyone has woken up to attack me for criticizing the party I was already going to vote for because I had the gall to call it like I saw it than the mild disgruntlement I was experiencing when I made the first comment.
Fucking rise up like this to demand better from Dems, folks!
Due to Republicans.
Nobody told you not to be angry, so not sure why you're so defensive. Just be angry at the people actually keeping things from happening and the voters who keep sending them to DC, not the politicians drafting laws and trying to negotiate their passage.
Nobody "woke up" to attack you. This is a public discussion forum. Don't take everything so personally.
...and stop voting for Republicans.
You are. I just worry about what one sided criticism might bring for us in November, and I say that while completely agreeing with you that policing reform is needed.
They could have avoided the criticism by skipping the empty platitude that triggered it. But a sincere thank you for acknowledging that it's OK to criticize them. (though I'm unsure what one-sided means in this context)
Harris was a cop herself so don't expect anything to change.Edit: My dumbass was misinformed. Harris was never an actual cop.
Stop saying "cop" when you mean "prosecutor". They're not remotely the same thing.
She was not a cop. She was a prosecutor. Are you calling her a bad person for having been a prosecutor? Should no one do that job? Should crimes be tolerated, not prosecuted?
Who's going to prosecute this murderer we're talking about here in this thread? I watched the trial of the cop who killed George Floyd. The prosecutors were fantastic. They obviously cared deeply about what they were doing. That's why they chose the job. To hold people who hurt innocent people accountable.
Actually I was wrong. I thought she had been an actual cop. I actually feel A Lot better about her as a candidate since learning this today. Shit I might even get off my ass this year and vote for her now. That's my bad.
🫡 I salute your rectitude.
Everytime I bring up her past it goes about like you see in this branch of discussion. We're not supposed to mention it lest the (actual) US left get blamed for criticizing her past history if she loses.
Are you accurate when reporting about her history, or are you posting fiction? It makes a difference in how people respond to your comments.
Depends on how you feel about The Atlantic, I guess.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/08/kamala-cop-record/596758/
Closing paragraphs of that article:
Also:
Hey, no need to be a dick. There's a huge area of being mistaken or just plain old disagreeing regarding conclusions that exists between "accurate" and "fiction". Just because I may disagree with you doesn't mean I'm going to say you have posted "fiction."
DROP THE FUCKING POT! Didn't Kamala back these cops when she was a DA?
This was in Springfield, Illinois and she was a DA in San Francisco, California. So presumably not.
So you are not denying it!
Missed the /s tag. I find that funny.
Ya, there was a heavily implied /s
I thought more people would get it. Oh well.
SHOW US THE TAPES UNDERPANTSWEEVIL
I can't wait for Americans to stop talking about race like it matters...
Shut the fuck up.
Some people just want racism to stay forever ...
You're not fooling anyone.
Fooling? Pal, when I lived in America briefly, that was the first time in my entire life I heard someone say 'removed,' with sincerity about a black person.. with zero shame.. Just fucking meant it.
Americans treatment of race across the board is fucked. The fact that so many well-meaning people who want a world where race is as important as hair colour, won't stop making race relevant in every conversation...
It's absolutely fucked.
Middle aged white dude in 'merica here. The amount of legitimate racists who openly identify themselves when I drive my old beat up pickup truck is insane.
We have a real problem that requires we focus on race until we remove racists from power. Well meaning people are just those fighting the issue of racism. You may see it different but we won't fix it by ignoring it.
He doesn't see it differently, he's a concern trolling racist a step away from screeching All Lives Matter.
Fair opinion... But if you actually listen to the racist for 5 seconds they directly use the kinds of rhetoric I'm referring to to legitimise their rhetoric and behaviours.
One can battle racists and racism, without being racist. Unfortunately, there have been many many cases of Americans not understanding that in recent years.
It's probably a loud small group, but your comments suggest that it's still a problem.
From my experience in semi rural America it's 50/50. I drive the old shit truck and hear racist shit from about half the white people I interact with. It's not a loud small group unfortunately. It's a group that stays quiet around brown people or foreign people that only speaks when it feels comfortable thinking it's around other racists. I used to think it was a loud small group. Now, I cannot overstate how unbelievably racist they are.
So hang on, you've correctly identified there's a lot of racism in the US, but your solution... Is that we shouldn't bring up race in racially biased situations? We shouldn't call out racism?
???
Look, I agree with you in regular situations. I am frequently frustrated that racism is perpetuated by those claiming to abhor it.
However, you cannot credibly claim that race did not matter in this example.
Leading by example for the next generation by never making race an issue yourself is noble. Refusing to acknowledge naked racism when you encounter it is wrong.
This is the same kind of argument as violence really. Take a lesson from martial arts tradition. Never be try one to bring violence. However, knowing how to defend the weak when violence comes to them is something else.
I mean, we have statistics that say this is a racially biased problem. By default the conversation needs to involve race.
I would love this to be teased out.
Could you explain the chain of events that specifically means this cop deserves to lose his job and be called a murdered... Because of those statistics.
Genuinely i think it would be educational if everyone understood that chain of logic..
As soon as it stops mattering, they will.
Imho.. you normalise thinking that race matters when race is brought into as many things as possible
You legitimise their rhetoric to an extent
Conservatives hate being called racist. What exactly is this legitimizing?
You read this story and splurted out that sentence?
I watched the footage.
Her race is irrelevant to the what went down... Obviously.
Obviously it matters. It’s just that there’s no better or worse race but we are all different. Ignoring the differences is equally discriminating. We are all equal in human rights but we are not clones.
Like I said... As much as hair colour.
We will get there some day
Not really as hair colour unless hair colour is connected to culture and heritage. Diversity isn’t something to be pursued just because of social justice but it is a genuinely good thing for society and exchange of ideas. Homogeneous societies are stale and uncreative. When many cultures work together they are stronger than all of them separately.
Lol.. of fucking course hair colour is connected to culture and heritage!? In the precise same ways that race is.
Nobody here wants a homogenous society. Why you tryna strawman me?!
I am the one arguing that race should matter as much as hair colour so nobody even notices when brunettes and gingers and blondes work together etc.
It's crazy that you made up another person just now.. wtf
The original phrasing of your comment is bound to evoke such responses, it comes off as a bit culturally blue pilled so to say hence mixed reactions.
If you were a political candidate it could cost you a lot for example but obviously this is just forum. You will just get some scolding and that’s it. Take it as free of charge friendly advice
Slack is understandable...
But people making shit up is not.
I legitimately forgot that he was still president lol
The ultimate lame duck
Asking who the president is is a way we assess for a traumatic brain injury. Bragging that you don't know who's president is an interesting take.
If asked, I definitely would have gotten it right lol
What I meant to be commenting on, and I'm sorry this wasn't clear, was that the news has been so focused on the campaign for so long, and for the past few days on Harris of course, that when I saw this headline, my immediate reaction was, "Why do we still care? He already withdrew."
And then, instantly, "Oh, because he's still the president. Right. Duh. Lmao," which was what my comment was supposed to convey. Hopefully that makes sense now
“Only someone running for president matters, not the actual president.”
Wat
https://www.theonion.com/news-happening-faster-than-man-can-generate-uninformed-1851601466
Unless they are running for office, you should only be hearing about the president if something important is happening. Just because Trump turned the office into a federal reality show doesn't make that the norm.