Maryland bill would force gun owners to get $300K liability insurance to wear or carry
Maryland House Democrats introduced a controversial gun safety bill requiring gun owners to forfeit their ability to wear or carry without firearm liability insurance.
Introduced by Del. Terri Hill, D-Howard County, the legislation would prohibit the “wear or carry” of a gun anywhere in the state unless the individual has obtained a liability insurance policy of at least $300,000.
"A person may not wear or carry a firearm unless the person has obtained and it covered by liability insurance issued by an insurer authorized to do business in the State under the Insurance Article to cover claims for property damage, bodily injury, or death arising from an accident resulting from the person’s use or storage of a firearm or up to $300,000 for damages arising from the same incident, in addition to interest and costs,” the proposed Maryland legislation reads.
Seems fair. If the risk is low, cost will be low. Let the free market decide, right?
It will be low. Super low. $300k is pocket change when the incidence for gun carriers to use them is extremely low. It's why we can constantly mock the tacti-cool warriors for thinking they need a gun on them at all times. Plus, the insurance company has way more flexibility in proving their client was not at fault in the incident compared to the shenanigans they have to pull now for car wrecks.
It's hard to imagine a reasonable objection, then. I don't trust insurance companies very much, but if there's one thing they do well, it's associating risk with cost.
That's doesn't make sense. We mock them for thinking they're in danger without a gun. Insurance is for the danger they create by carrying a gun.
Yes, that’s what was said
Its cheap because theres almost no risk. Tiger attack insurance is very cheap in the US too.
So whats the point? Insurance cant possibly solve any actual problems associated with gun violence.
I would bet that tiger attack insurance for someone who brings a tiger with then in public would be astronomical.
The point is to put the burden of cost where it actually belongs. Instead of society footing the bill, now gun owners will pay into an insurance system that will cover costs in the event of damage.
Well insurance companies might deny coverage for people with a documented past of mental illness or violent behavior, which is more due diligence than many states are apparently putting in.
I mean it's fucked and the proper solution should of course be regulation and proper background checks should not be too much to expect, but if everything has to be a "free market" masquerade then that would still be better than nothing (though I agree not by very much).
That's certainly what I've been told. The statistics look a little sketchy to me on that front, but I'm not a mathematician and insurance companies will surely do a better analysis than anyone on this thread.
The only sure thing is that insurance companies will try to make as much money off this as possible, especially if it becomes required by law to have.
Don’t some states have laws about profitability caps on insurance?
There were stories of some insurance companies refunding policy holders during COVID due to excess profits.
That's where competition is important. Get a bunch of insurers in the market and the profits they leech will be minimal. But health insurance is a fucking debacle over profits, so I definitely hear your concern.
Ask Floridians looking for flood or even just normal home insurance how competition is working for them.
The problem there is insuring housing isn't financially viable because climate change has made it too costly to mass-build houses as often as they are destroyed. That's not really similar to the gun violence marketplace.
The idea her is if folks can persuade insurance companies that they are stable and responsible enough, insurance for them will be cheap. Meanwhile folks with domestic violence records or violent felonies would be priced out of having a gun or at least have the ability to bear the financial burden if something goes wrong. This is by no means a great solution, but 2A absolutists have the supreme court and the law is essentially that reasonable regulation isn't possible.
Until that changes, I'll accept a market solution.
Awesome. We're going to apply it to cops too, right?
Right?
Did you read the article? Yes, it applies to police.
LOLLLLLLL if you think it'll make it to a final vote without a law enforcement exemption being added.
Yes, I quoted it in one of my other comments.
The law is not final yet, though. I'm sure there will be a wall of whine coming from the cops about how they're so special and should be exempted. The real test will be if the legistlature capitulates or leaves them in there.
Fuck reading
These proposals would ultimately manifest in insurance for white peopel costing less and black people and hispanics costing more. All this does is price minorities out of gun rights. The whites will be fine, good thing they're not the ones comitting the vast majority of gun terrorism . . . Oh wait I've just received some devastating statistics . . .
Insurance underwriters would surely base their insurance premiums off that very information. I think this may be a rare case of insurance actually being somewhat fair considering race.
Then again, Baltimore.
The overwhelming majority of gun deaths are sucide, organized crime also has a high share. The insurance premiums are not going to be based on whos more likely to do a mass shooting they're gonna be based on every payout they prospectivly have to make. So people who will get the highest rates will be minorities and those seeking mental health treatment. So the best way to keep your premium low would be to be white and not seek mental health treatment. That's not exactly behavior I would like financially incentivised.
I don’t know, based off the information you’re working with, we’re assuming that the gun insurers would be on the hook for life insurance claims?
That’s different than liability, which is what’s proposed here
I'm not very opinionated on guns tbh, but I do think this only makes it more difficult for poor people. I'm not sure I agree with that.
That's the exact point of these bills. Don't ever assume that safety is the priority of these bills. They don't want the working poor to have rights.
But it also makes sure you get paid something in case accidents, at least in theory.
It's ridiculously easy to do 300k plus of accidental damages misusing a gun, but most people don't have 300k to pay even if a court orders them to.
Great, if my child is shot dead in school by some rich kid, at least I get 300k to pay for child funeral. /s
It probably makes it more difficult for MOST people. I don't know what the stats are on people who want to carry a firearm in public are, income-wise... but I feel like that's an impossible amount of money for most of them to spend on something like carrying a gun.
I'm not sure about this legislation either, really, but they're not being asked to spend $300,000, just to be able to get an insurance policy for that amount.
Yeah. I'm a goon who forgot how insurance works.
Never understood why you have to have insurance to operate vehicles, but not have insurance for weapons, or dogs for that matter.
Because owning of weapons is a constitutional right with very limited means to restrict your rights too.
owning/operating a vehicle is simply a privilege that is easily revoked for any number of reasons, and can have many barriers between you and having it.
Because the constitution was written 200 years ago, and is not fit for the modern day.
Requiring insurance should fall under the definition of "well regulated"
In a common sense society that doesnt worship a single phrase from a 200 year old document, yes.
"Well regulated" does not mean now what it meant back then. In the context of the constitutional times "regulated" meant trained, supplied, and such shape ready to fight instead of legislated or controlled by the government.
You could also argue that the National Guard is the well regulated militia.
Depending on which modern definition of "militia" you choose, the National Guard either is one or isn't one.
But remember that the Bill of Rights serves to restrict the government from passing laws that infringe on certain rights - so it doesn't grant you and I rights, it instead prevents the government from impeding on some the Founding Fathers felt The People (white dudes) had. It'd be ass backwards to argue that the government allows us freedom of expression, for example. That's a natural right.
Building on that, stating that the 2nd Amendment only applies to the National Guard is a shortened way of saying "the government may not infringe on the People's right to have a government sanctioned and controlled branch of the federal Armed Forces." Anyone with a cursory understanding of the American Revolution will know that this is not at all what the Founding Fathers intended the 2A to do.
We could also be realistic and admit that the point of the Second Amendment isn't really valid anymore. The entire reason it existed was cuz Patrick Henry was scared of slave uprisings. That was its purpose.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/554/570/
SCotUS has ruled that your relationship with a militia, well-regulated or otherwise, is irrelevant to your right to bear arms
edit: clarity
It’s wild that “militia” is still considered relevant.
Like, are we really still in a time when your town of 100 settlers might get attacked by Native Americans from the West and the British from the East?
We gonna ring the bell and dole out muskets to every able-bodied man and boy in the village?
Muskets — and ammo, and gunpowder — from the armory, since it was impractical and dangerous to keep that stuff at home?
And lest we forget, these MFers passed ten amendments right off the bat. They thought we’d be ready to change this shit on the fly as the world evolved.
People say they meant for amendments to be difficult to pass. But they really had no idea what the right calibration would be. It was a new thing! And they had just managed to get unanimous buy-in to start the thing. How hard could a 3/4 vote be?
The militias were mainly for putting down slave revolts
having a constitutional right to carry a weapon does not shield you from responsibility if you misuse that weapon in a way that violates my rights.
Who said it did?
A vehicle is a weapon.
Anything can be a weapon with enough effort and intent. Even your teeth. You want to start restricting everything that could possibly be a weapon?
I mean, as of right now if you use something as a weapon in a way that breaks the law you're civilly liable. the restrictions are already there and always have been.
One is a right that shall not be infringed, and the other one is a state-regulated privilege (at least for operating the machine on public roads).
Very simple to understand actually. You can't put paywalls in front of rights, so this will be dunked right down the shitter if it passes, by the courts.
historically the courts have allowed many restrictions to the second amendment, its only modern revisionism thats reinterpreted "well regulated militia" as "literally anyone except felons" and "the right to bear arms" as "gun companies have a right to unrestricted gun sales"
Oh don't worry, they're revising that part too. They want no limits whatsoever. They want felons to have guns.
There are places that mandate dog insurance if the dog has been aggressive in the past. It's at least a partial step in the right direction.
Here's the problem...
We can require automobile insurance because driving a car isn't a right.
Now, owning a gun is a right, and you could argue that wearing or carrying the gun is not, but then you have to go back to New York vs Bruen:
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/597/20-843/
New York used to require special permission to wear or carry a gun. You had to provide special justification for your need to carry and "because I don't feel safe" or "I want to defend myself" wasn't good enough.
Supreme Court ruled:
"We know of no other constitutional right that an individual may exercise only after demonstrating to government officers some special need. That is not how the First Amendment works when it comes to unpopular speech or the free exercise of religion. It is not how the Sixth Amendment works when it comes to a defendant’s right to confront the witnesses against him. And it is not how the Second Amendment works when it comes to public carry for self-defense."
Given that, I can't imagine they would hold an insurance requirement to be constitutional.
Should Alex Jones be forced to have liability insurance before spouting off conspiracy theories on InfoWars? Yeah, probably. But that's not the way the first amendment works either.
I agree that their interpretation would work that way, however, I don't see how they can pretend their interpretation of the second amendment is anything like that of the first. They restrict time and place of first amendment rights constantly. The government can make you get a permit in order to hold a demonstration on public land. There are "free speech zones", and things like protests of pipelines are broken up by the government all of the time.
I know we shouldn't expect consistency from this bunch of looney tunes, but I still think it's worth pointing out that they're not being consistent at all.
Well, the 2nd is restricted similarly. For example, even with a permit, you can't carry concealed in a courtroom. The waiver is for "in general".
Unfortunately, the highest law of the land disagrees with your interpretation at this time. They have this whole "plain meaning of words" mindset. The typical 3rd grader reading the 2nd Amendment would think "oh ok, I can have a gun". Therefore, that's what the 2nd Amendment means now.
Yeah, that's covered by jurisprudence based around the needs of the country. And the law is right that the First Amendment doesn't say the freedom of speech is the freedom to disrupt (preventing people from going to their destination, vandalizing property, etc). But if you needed to buy Free Speech Insurance, that would get shot down as unconstitutional.
None of those other amendment rights are an inherent physical danger to innocent people. The Second Amendment is.
But it's not like insurance is going to help. If you buy a gun that gets used in a shooting, it's still used in a shooting. The only difference is that someone might get money, but it doesn't actually solve any problem.
What it does do is place a regressive tax on gun ownership.
Monetary compensation for harm is very common in our society. E.g. that why a person who commits sexual assault pays compensation to the victim. Didn't solve the problem, but it compensates an innocent victim. Same in a shooting.
Disagree fundamentally. First amendment is absofuckinglutely WILD right to be able to speak freely without legal repercussions
Hilter built the Nazi war machine from speeches to semi-drunk veterans in beer halls Cult/political/spiritual grifters and can ply their trade unmolested as long as they skirt around fraud laws Political speech, criticism of leadership and government, 4chan, art, etc etc all can have far more power and influence over everyone
Uhm…next one sort of is. Unless you want to open your home to strangers with weapons and training.
Problem. That entire ruling was based off the idea that there was no such regulations in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Except it was an extremely common regulation. And even in that paragraph they lie. Try having a protest without a permit. Ask them how many times the government is allowed to put someone on trial. Ask them about the 4th amendment right against illegal searches and seizures, specifically Civil Asset Forfeiture, where you have to request the government to give you your stuff back that was seized without any due process. I could keep going.
A SCOTUS that lies to itself and the world for ideological purposes is not an authority on our rights.
I see what they want to do: no sane insurance company will provide such contracts unless they either:
Any of those will of course disincentivize people from owning guns, which is a good thing, but it's crazy that a state has to offload these controls to a private company because there is no political willingness to do it in the right way.
This solves nothing, except for the rich getting the sole prerogative to guns.
Even if this source is off by a factor of 10, what person can purchase a $400+ firearm but can't afford the same in yearly insurance?
Is that a fixed range, or will the cost just go up for the folk that some corporation thinks shouldn't carry a gun?
The government should just do it's fucking job and provide the insurance and background check. Its a bad move to relegate this to private parties. Atleast with the government the people can vote who is in power.
So you guys don't have universal healthcare but it makes sense for the taxpayers to subsidise insurance and background checks so everyone can carry a gun and be happy, and sobthe the poor are not left out from this inalienable right that is carrying a gun in public like in the western movies?
They are using the anti-abortion strategy of finding a fairly strong argument and trying to maximize the ability of blocking something based on it. This will likely also fail like most of those attempts did.
Ahhh, the old "let's make something a right that only the rich can afford." For all the "eat the rich" rhetoric here, there seems to be a lot of desire to increase the class divide even more by limiting rights to how much money you have.
It's already very difficult to nearly impossible to obtain a purchase and carry permit in the state since Maryland is "May issue" state and NOT a "Shall issue" state. This means you can be denied a permit at the whim of local law enforcement unless you have an "in" with whoever is in charge. This is purely performative theater to buy votes.
And the two groups that really should have liability insurance - drug gangs and law enforcement - will be completely unaffected by this requirement.
It’s definitely odd seeing the crowd cheering for regulatory capture, that’s certain. Doubly infuriating because this kind of legislation will not solve problems, it’s virtue signaling to anti-gun donors and voters, that just pisses off everyone who has to live with it. How does insurance solve harm? It doesn’t, and I’d argue this is legally untested enough that a carrier can likely find ways to get out from paying.
There’s much better areas to start unraveling this issue, but they’re hard and don’t make quick headlines for clout:
MD is Shall Issue now, thanks to Bruen. Still very hard to obtain a permit, as you require 16 hours of instruction, passing a live-fire exam, and paying about $200 in fees (on top of the $400 class).
That doesn't sound that hard.
Well when all the classes are only offered during the week (or charge more for weekend classes), taking two days off work and spending a whole paycheck just on a permit is rather difficult.
Sir, that is unlicensed speech. You'll need to take 16 hours of a $400 class and pay a $200 fee for a license to speak that way.
It should be a required safety test like with driver's licenses, a reasonable compromise that you can also add immediate failure states to and doesn't add an undue time and cost burden to people who aren't dumbasses, unlike a class.
Get a child safety question wrong?
Fail.
Say you have the right to shoot a fleeing burglar in the back?
Also fail.
If you think that's bad, I had to get a $1,000,000 umbrella coverage policy for our swimming pool to cover liability in case someone gets injured. I don't think it's unreasonable at all
SCOTUS would say that the distinction is that we don't have a fundamental right under the Constitution to have a swimming pool on our property. But we do have a fundamental right to possess firearms.
As established in District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. City of Chicago, the Second Amendment protects an individual's right to possess firearms for lawful purposes, such as self-defense. Any state law impacting this right would be subject to judicial scrutiny and likely strict scrutiny. Strict scrutiny is applied when a law impacts a fundamental right or involves a suspect classification. Such laws must be narrowly tailored to serve a compelling government interest.
While the right to bear arms is protected, the Supreme Court acknowledges that this right is not absolute and can be subject to regulations. Restrictions such as background checks and prohibitions for certain individuals (like felons or the mentally ill) have been upheld.
However there is legal precedent that excessive economic barriers to exercising a fundamental right can be problematic. For instance, in Harper v. Virginia State Board of Elections (1966), the Court struck down a poll tax as it constituted a barrier to the fundamental right to vote.
Given these principles, a mandatory $300,000 insurance policy could be seen as a substantial economic barrier to exercising the right to bear arms. The Court would likely assess whether the law is justifiable under strict scrutiny. If the state argues that the law serves public safety, the Court would consider whether it's narrowly tailored to that interest.
If the requirement disproportionately affects lower-income individuals, the Court might view it as an undue burden on the fundamental right to bear arms, similar to how poll taxes were viewed as barriers to voting rights.
All of this is very stupid, and does not happen in normal liberal democracies
Ultimately we need to thank the Roberts Court for teaching Americans that previously established rulings can be overturned, a la Roe
I'm thinking when the pendulum swings back and liberals control the court, we'll take a closer look at the part of the 2nd amendment that says 'we'll regulated'.
Can you imagine the chaos if SCOTUS took a second look at the 2nd amendment (in the original document, for some reason.. just go with it) and found an apostrophe?
It's been chilling there since 1789. How is this the first time somebody noticed it? What tf is "a we'll regulated militia" supposed to entail?? What will be the rippling effects on the state of national politics???
Find out on the next episode of Alternate History by a Pedantic Loser on Lemmy! (I'm sorry)
I mean there are spelling mistakes in the document I'm pretty sure ;p
It doesn't prevent you from keeping and bearing arms, it makes you responsible if you choose to carry a firearm with you, which isn't a fundamental right and never has been.
It imposes a new financial and bureaucratic penalty on all who wish to exercise their fundamental right of self-defense in any area that is not their home. The text of the 2nd amendment does not say that the right to keep and bear arms shall be conditioned on compliance with everchanging insurance requirements. It says that it shall not be infringed.
I agree with your point. But our opinions don't matter. There are 6 people on SCOTUS right now who will see this differently than us, and, ultimately, their opinions are the only ones that matter. And their opinions are not subject to appeal or oversight - they are absolute in matters of Constitutional interpretation.
We have a terrible system that is in need of drastic reform
So, let me see if I've got this right.
Maryland wants to have a privately-enforced tax on the exercise of a constitutional right. Do I have that more or less correct? Perhaps you could also have a requirement that all religious congregations or any kind have a $1B policy in case there is sexual misconduct by a member of the congregation?
A tax that disproportionally affects poor people. We wouldn't want those people having guns, now would we?
I genuinely would. I believe that all people (that aren't prohibited due to prior illegal violent actions) should be able to exercise their rights, if that is their choice. I don't think people should be required to own firearms, any more than I think that anyone should be required to vote. But I don't think that the state should be trying to prevent either. And it really pisses me off that gun owners in general want to close off exercise of rights to the "wrong" people, esp. non-white people, LGBTQ+ people, and anyone that's to the political left of Benitto Mussolini.
Not the congregation, but perhaps the clergy should carry insurance. Especially if they're part of a church that has a history of sexual assault in their organization
I would suggest that you look into church sex abuse cases. It's not always the clergy that's committing abuse. Quite often it's members, and the clergy is covering it up because of the priest-penitent privilege (edit: and to protect the reputation of the church; this has been true with the Mormon
cultchurch, JWs, Southern Baptist Convention members, and many, many other churches). (Which, BTW, only means that they their testimony can't be used in an investigation or trial without the permission of the penitent. It does not legally bar them from alerting the police that abuse has occurred.)Yeah.....about that
That is optional insurance, not mandated by a state law. You can already buy insurance (Edit: for firearms) to protect you in case of negligence, or prosecution for something you claim is self-defense.
Only if you believe it's an individual right, which you can't without ignoring half the amendment that creates it.
Something needs to be done but wow this feels like the worst way to go.
Oh you mean the way that let's the monied ruling class stay armed while all the rest of us lowly poors can't be. Surely that genius plan won't ever backfire.
This would go to the supreme court who would rule that restricting the right to bear arms to someone's financial status is unconstitutional or some shit.
Well tbf "no guns for poor people" is pretty classist.
My constitutional right to an AR 15 depends on my ability to pay $2,000 or whatever they cost. Not in my budget. The old bank account needs more freedoms it seems.
This is a joke, but seriously though - how is affordability an argument when guns also cost money?
Not every gun is $2,000. A Taurus is $<300
And your right to bear arms is irrespective of the cost of a gun. Inheritance, gifts, etc.
sure 2 grand is a lot of money, but dont go and tell me your car is affordable because you spent 10 grand on it.
Or that your house was worth the money, or whatever place you rent currently, or all those things that you probably pay for monthly.
It's a one time cost, for a weapon, that if correctly maintained will last basically forever.
Reasonable vs unreasonable expense. You need to buy a gun, ammunition, and a training course? Not a problem. You need to buy a gun, ammo, and a $300k golden stamp, that's not fine, because it is prohibitively expensive.
If this type of insurance is illegal or prohibitively expensive, then this will be struck down. If not, it might be permitted, or it might not. The supreme court is extremely conservative right now, so I suspect it would be struck down regardless.
$300k of liability insurance does not cost $300k. That's literally the point of insurance.
Well it is. If you're going to let everyone have guns, you shouldn't restrict ownership based on who can afford insurance on it.
I don't think any private citizen should be able to own guns anyway though.
Are we going to start with the police?
Did…did you even read the brief?
I think they mean, while on duty. That statement right there is just saying they don't get a pass while they're off the job, just because they're LEOs.
Doesn’t seem to, at least from the follow up
O damn, I stand corrected. Unfortunately lumping in the police to this means it has no chance to pass. The police unions won't let this move an inch.
Well it's not law yet. They're pretty good at pushing for tweaks to laws in their favor.
As the bill is currently written
Get back to us when it passes with that language in it.
No.
They'll get Qualified Liability.
Another right-wing bill that gives the rich power over poor, disguised as left-wing bill. All politicians in power are rich, which is why they always push for right-wing politics, democrat or republican, always end up against the working class. There is a good video about this.
If the statistics show what gun fanatics claim, that guns keep people safer, then our capitalist market will compete down to a very low price because it won't be expensive for the insurers. Econ 101.
It keeps the rich safer from the working class to rebel against them. This bill only makes more of a gap and gives more power to the rich, over the poor.
I think your position would have more bite if it was based solely on ownership, but it's about carry. If it gets to the point of rich people and poor people shooting at each other in the streets, it won't matter much what the law is on this and people will be bringing their guns out.
When black panters were around, they would just carry the weapons, to show that if some white nationalist attack, they will not just sit there. Now whenever cops see someone marching with a gun, to protect the union strike or whatever, they can just arrest them, without any shooting even occurring. While anyone backed by the rich, will be able to pass by police with AR 15 with no problem. Just imagine two groups that started as a peacful protest being face to face, while one group is heavily armed and other is not.
If the issue is that the police are going to favor the rich, it matters not what the law is, as that same example you just gave could be true regardless of this insurance law.
This bill is making it legal to favor the rich. They can stop everyone and ask for papers, but those who represent the interest of the capitalist class will be able to have them, while the working class won't.
That's my feeling too. I like the immediate thought about requiring insurance but thinking further I see the negatives too.
This is a lot like insuring a vehicle. So they shouldn’t make it a flat insurance, which would be regressive, but tailor it to the capacity, ammunition type, and firing rate of the weapon.
That’s what would make it a progressive fee - a basic Saturday Night Special or hunting rifle would be cheap for any poor person to own, whereas a military style machine gun would be cost-prohibitive for all but the wealthiest.
They could even have extra discounts based on user certification and tested skill levels, with surcharges based on discharge accidents and situations where the gun was recorded being improperly brandished or carried.
Like for a 9mm, which doesn't really hurt that much if any. That's just 2000 bucks. But for an ak47 which is scary from 5 feet away that's $34,000 bond in case you accidentally pop it inside a mall parking lot and ruin a car. But for a small cannon you would need at least $1000,000.00 liability because it probably really hurts, and you could accidentally ruin a friendship, his wife's head, the dog, an entire car tire, 3 rats, a large pizza, a squirrel and the bottom part of a giraffe...all in a single shot. Gotta be careful with cannons out there you know. Plus you can't really carry those, you just sorta pull them around.
Lot of very specific detail their. Come on share the story.
It's only logical because the larger the hole, the more painful the accidental shot. I'm just using logic 😄.
Why should all but the wealthiest be allowed to own an assault rifle? I think that's a recipe for disaster.
Guns have always been a recipe for disaster
Responsible gun ownership? No. Unfortunately, you have too many uneducated and irresponsible people out there that shouldn't have access to a lot of things, much less guns.
Yeah, this bill is stupid. It just gives rich more power than the poor, like all bills. No matter the topic in politics, it always ends up as something that hurts only the working class.
The difference is that bearing arms is a right according to the constitution. Having a car is not. Makes it difficult to require insurance for guns.
Do we really need to help insurance companies make more money? Are thier stocks low?
They're jealous of pharma companies the last few years.
Aside from this being a regressive tax, how many unjustifiable shootings result from people legally permitted to carry a firearm?
A lot, mostly NDs. I can't find any statistics because google sucks these days, but you can find video after video after video of people shooting themselves and their friends with "empty" guns. I used to frequent the /r/IdiotsWithGuns subreddit. Some great examples of how badly someone can ruin a life in an instant on there
I think most gun deaths tend to be handguns, and tend to be suicides, which would probably be people who would still be allowed to have a firearm in this circumstance, though I can see the insurance dissuading that in the case of people who are killing themselves on impulse (though I would think a wait period would be equally as effective, is already implemented in some places, doesn't financially discriminate, and neither legislation nor really any legislation we have actually would flag someone as being at risk if they wanted to kill themselves, except for the kind of pathetic mental health check form).
The other large category of gun deaths tend to be what is defined as "organized crime", which tends to stem from a couple different convergent factors. High value property, in drugs, that exists outside the legal system but still must be protected, lack of real social safety nets, large amounts of poverty, redlining, etc. . Generally though these people aren't like, legally acquiring their firearms anyways. What they are doing, and what is a real concern, is them acquiring firearms from legal gun owners, as the US has quite a lot of guns and not a lot of limitations or protection on them. The cartels can get a bunch of fourth generation military surplus used up garbage at an expensive black market price, or they can just rob like one gun nut, shave off a sear, and bing bang boom you have a spiffy new gun, pretty easily. I don't have a great solution to that problem, but in any case you could tackle that issue from the other side by just providing social safety nets, legalizing drugs, trying to lower housing prices, shit like that.
The stand out category in everyone's mind tends to be "mass shootings", or, lone wolf, usually stochastic, terrorism, which is kind of an interesting hot button political issue. By any analysis, though, it tends not to be a huge issue in terms of raw deaths, though, I would like to see some sort of crackdown on it happen, but you would probably need some even-handed, discriminating approach to that, or, again, better flags for mental illness, rather than a large encompassing law. Also getting a shoutout is unjustifiable police shootings but I also don't have a great solution beyond that outside of abolishing police, and getting rid of this stupid fucking patent that axon has on the taser.
In any case basically, you are correct, this law's gonna do jack shit.
Do cops next!
I can't wait to see said cops tie themselves into complicated knots trying to explain why they ought to get a free pass but somehow us regular plebians have it different.
I appreciate that they're trying to do something here, but this doesn't feel like it's aimed at stopping actually dangerous people. This feels like it's aimed at beating on people who were already willing to deal with Maryland's already more-strict-than-usual gun laws.
But I guess we'll see how this pans out in a few years.
A bit about me for context: I'm Canadian, I have an interest in guns. I do not own any guns. I can imagine myself owning a gun, but don't want one right now. I know a bit about guns, but not a lot. eg Rim fire vs center fire, and that there isn't anything specific that makes a rifle an assault rifle. I support gun regulation but think Canada's recent changes go too far (it's now impossible for a normal citizen to legally obtain a handgun in Canada).
My two cents on this bill:
Every responsible gun owner ought to have liability insurance that covers their firearms regardless of whether or not it's required.
Objections to such requirements based on the cost of insurance could be overcome in a few ways. Two that occur to me off the top of my head:
a. Individual insurance could be not necessary if the citizen is a member of a well regulated militia (but the state could define what qualifies as a well regulated militia, maybe: shared liability, annual training)
b. The state could offer tax payer funded insurance, for gun owners that agree to certain conditions e.g. gun use, storage (and inspections)
I look forward to the comments.
Ooh give the gun nuts socialized gun insurance. I’ll get my popcorn.
It's not the responsible ones that are the problem here.
I agree, the point is that it's awkward for someone to oppose this policy because they're kind of confessing to being irresponsible.
Some of us did have insurance, then a bunch of anti-gun groups pressured the payment processors to stop working with companies that offered "murder insurance."
So how much could such insurance actually cost? Does anyone have the numbers to do the maths?
Say a single policy covers any number of guns a person has. So we need a number of people owning guns.
A death is definitely 300k payout. What kind of payout, on average, would injury be? Also 300k because healthcare costs are insane? Less than that?
How many people are killed using a gun every year?
How many are injured?
I wonder what the pure business cost would be for the insurance. I don't actually know how large a profit margin insurance companies run, would curious to sort of blindly apply that here as well.
https://www.theactuarymagazine.org/firearm-risk/
The people who wrote this article are going to be happy with this.
Well, undoubtedly if it is like other types of insurance the insurance will exempt homicide and and suicide. It will probably only cover accidental discharge so it will not help with the two biggest problems.
Most insurance doesn't cover an insured for deliberate acts by the insured. Off the top of my head the only caveat I can think of is in Japan where life insurance can still pay out in the event of suicide.
Life insurance in the US will also generally pay out in the case of suicide, as long as you wait at least one year after the purchase of a policy to kill yourself.
Huh, news to me. But it has been a decade plus since licensing when I went over life insurance so it's entirely possible I forgot or policies changed since then. Thanks for letting me know.
The industry standard is two years. In Brazil, where I work in, is an obligation imposed by our regulator.
That makes sense, I guess. If there's a homicide you're probably already suing the perpetrator.
Imagine living in a place where owning a gun isn't the real controversy, and this isn't already a law...
Literally the only gun I want right now is in the VR game pistol whip. It also get me exercising.
That's hilariously low.
I've got £2,000,000 liability on my pet insurance. And she's got about 4 teeth left.
So, this only applies to firearms, right? Can I circumvent this by owning a bow, crossbow, sword or one of the cool experimental coil//plasma/laser guns instead? /S
Railguns aren't firearms. :)
Or a black powder pistol. Don't mind me or my belt full of three Colt Navy 1851s. Guess I gotta start chewing so I can spit like Josey too.
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So...I just need to replace the gunpowder within each bullet with black powder and I'd be good to go?
Go for it.
I’m only for this if they make law enforcement and government agencies get the same liability insurance to carry as well.
You know it would be paid by our taxes not our of their pockets. And cops would raise the rates for everyone. They shoot far more people than regular law abiding gun owners per capita. Most murders are committed by unlawful owners who wouldn't carry insurance anyway, so the insurance wouldn't pay out most of the time. If this passes I bet it gets stricken down.
If the cost of keeping a “bad apple” on the force gets too high admin might decide to get rid of said apple.
Police agencies have budgets and if the cost of keeping Johnnie McShootins on the force gets too high they might cut him. Other agencies might also have second thoughts about employing ol’ McShootins if they find out how much he will drive up their insurance…
But you are 100% right this penalizes lawful gun owners. This won’t stop criminals.
I believe in this wholeheartedly
but it'lll never pass, and even if it does, it'll never withstand a trial challenge.. because of the bolded part below.
edit And just so lemmy doesnt crawl up my ass about it, I am not an ammosexual, I'm quoting the 2nd amendment for its relevance here on how this bill wont stand, not because I'm a red hat wearing cultist.
I appreciate the concept, but is $300,000 enough to actually cover the cost of damages? Guns generally seem like the sort of thing where accidents either cause minimal or catastrophic damage with not much in between.
This will pretty much only affect the friends/family of politicians, as they are the only ones that can get a permit to legally carry in Maryland.
Marylander here - the fuck are you talking about
I left in 2014 when you had to beg for permission to even purchase a handgun. Have things become better? Since the politicians are still proposing things like this, I assume not.
"Beg for permission"
I know plenty of people in this state who've purchased handguns, and unless attending a safety course is a form of begging, you're talking out of your ass.
When I went to purchase a handgun, I was told I would need the permission of the local sheriff, in addition to the safety course.
I'm not going to jump through hoops to exercise a right that protects me from the same people who are attempting to hold my rights hostage.
Also, how many of them can legally carry a gun in Maryland?
This is 10× what California’s pay for their car insurance bill.
I think the average bullet wound might result in slightly higher medical bills than the average car accident.
I wasn't trying to make a statement, my bad. I was drunk when I said that, and I've sold insurance lmao.
Beneath the Mason Dixon Line? Heavens to Betsy!