Rivian CEO issues strong statement about people who purchase gas-powered cars: ‘Sort of like building a horse barn in 1910’
yahoo.com
Rivian CEO issues strong statement about people who purchase gas-powered cars: ‘Sort of like building a horse barn in 1910’::"I don't think I would have believed it."
Forgive me, sire; I hadn't $80,000 to spend on a luxury truck.
You fuck.
If you knew that he was referring to the purchase of a $80k Suburban in 2030 would that change your assessment?
I think you know very well I would never engage with this possibility as a means of self preservation. Good day sir!
So a $77-82k Suburban is good in your eyes then? How come? Why? Oh wait, you didn't read the quote.
Just because he compared it to a suburban doesn't mean that the Mitsubishi mirage and used Corollas aren't a thing.
And sure the Chevy Bolt is 26k, but that's still 5k more expensive than a new Corolla and has like half the range, and you can fuel the Corolla way faster.
Not with the $7500 federal tax credit, let alone (for CA) residents the tax rebate. It’s not for everyone yet but there’s plenty of people there Bolt is perfect for.
Source: bought one. Is great.
Same. Bolt owner checking in. It's fucking awesome and was - to me and my family- the obvious choice. It's not for everyone, but if you can afford it and your lifestyle allows for it, it's an easy decision.
Slowly but surely EV's will be the default choice. Prices will continue to fall, infrastructure will improve, and gas will get ridiculously expensive. The tide is changing.
A luxury truck with the ugliest headlights on a car today.
I love the front end of the Rivian.
Whenever I see these razor thin LED headlights on vehicles, my first thought is are those COB chips getting cooled properly?
It just comes across as very sus, a bit like form over function at the expense of headlight longevity
Those aren't headlights
I'm not even sure what my headlights look like. I never really see them.
And the fucking dangerous high front which is completely unnecessary on an electric car, why is it there. Not even the TESLA FUCKING CYBERTRUCK pulls that shit, say what you will about Tesla, but they understand how the differences between gas and electric cars can be taken advantage of.
Selling $80k electric cars and making comments like this is sort of like saying 'let them eat cake' in 1780
If you read the article you’d see that he said that in the context of buying a Chevy Suburban in 2030. Suburbans start at $77k, so I don’t think his comment is that out of line.
It's not, of course it's not.
But we know that legacy Reddit users never even bothered to read the articles anyway. Hurray! I missed-- not.
Yeah but it's still a fair comment because the cars are too expensive for anyone to buy The battery compared to another car that's too expensive to buy doesn't really make any difference.
Because the thing about expensive gas powered cars is there's also not expensive gas powered cars. So he's comparing expensive electric cars to variable price gas powered cars.
I usually dont bother to read articles, because they are seo garbage. I glance at top comments written by true people to verify info instead
Wait wait wait, you mean theres more to this story than the title?
Shooketh.
That context is great, but I haven't seen any articles about the Chevy CEO saying such astoundingly tone deaf shit. 🤔 maybe the price isn't what's inflammatory.
Those trucks/SUVs weigh 8500lbs. Since there is no fuel tax being collected, these monsters are destroying the roads and not contributing to their upkeep. My city is passing laws to significantly increase the registration on these vehicles, according to their annual mileage. I'm all for going electric, but an 8500lb truck is not helping the environment.
2023 F150 weighs between 4,021 to 5,740 lbs, just as a reference point. All electric vehicles weigh significantly more than their ICE counterparts
This is true, but fuel taxes are very low. Most states that are charging an EV "road maintenance fee" (with whatever phrasing they select) are charging way more than an ICE vehicle would contribute in fuel taxes. And while it is true that BEVs are heavier than ICE vehicles, all else held equal, and that road wear and tear is strongly dependent on weight... as I recall reading, the overwhelming majority of road wear and tear is the result of freight trucks and similar vehicles.
The issue here isn't that it's an EV in this case. It's that it's a truck. I'd wager than >95% of people buying trucks in the US would be perfectly served by a four door sedan or comparable sized vehicle. Trucks have largely become expensive vanity items to act as an external signal of a person's cultural identity. Contractors and similar that actually use a truck for truck purposes still exist, but they're comically outnumbered by people buying trucks for no good reason.
My conservative neighbor drives an F-150 (~5,500 lbs) and his wife drives a Tahoe (~5,800 lbs). But he had the gall to complain to me last week about the weight of my Model Y (4,400 lbs). It's amazing what a little bit of oil and gas propaganda has been able to accomplish.
I don't think it's propaganda that EVs are heavy as shit for their size. Automakers are really upfront on that fact. You trying to call it propaganda illustrates your bad faith argument. You're misusing that word and diluting the meaning.
4400 vs 5800 isn't much of a difference, considering the sizes of the vehicles you listed. You are essentially driving a midsize truck but without the utility of a truck. Your neighbor has two trucks to your one. The top trim Tacoma weighs the same as your lower tier Tesla. Tesla Model X Standard Range comes in at 5,185 pounds.
I think we can both agree your vehicle is extremely heavy for being a small, low/mid tier passenger vehicle. Some Teslas are not eligible for the $7500 tax credit because they weigh so much.
I like how you can't respond to this. It really hammers home my argument and calling you on your bullshit. Thank you for the votes, because that means I know you read the comment but have no idea how to respond!
My city doesn't allow big trucks on our roads. The wear and tear of roads is heavily dependent on weight, as you and I both stated. Weighing 3500lbs more (the weight of a Toyota Camry) than even the largest personal vehicle is a problem which I hope they solve soon.
I'm not sure why people think it's propaganda that EVs weigh 1.5x or more than a standard sedan. It's a fact, and it's easy to find information. The tech crowd wants to call anything that hurts their opinion bullshit, but they refuse to look it up. It's right there on the manufacturers' websites. I sincerely doubt the owners of Rivian or Tesla are in on some government "propaganda" to lower their own sales.
I appreciate the votes. That proves you read the comment but have no idea how to respond, because you can't.
It’s important to read the full quote from Rivian’s CEO before complaining about $75k electric trucks:
He’s comparing buying a Rivian truck with buying a Suburban, which has a base price of $57k for the lowest tier configuration (LS) and a $76k price on the High Country configuration.
Proof that very few read the article
It's still a fair complaint though. What about those of us who can't afford to spend $75,000 on a car?
Um…does the CEO know that horses are still a thing and that horse barns (aka stables) are still in use? Also, the invention of the automobile didn’t instantly displace the horse. It was well into the 1920s before they became a regular sight.
Also…there’s lots of reasons to buy gas-powered cars these days. For one, not everyone lives in a home where they can install the necessary charger, so you’d always be on the “hunt” for charging stations, and fuel cars are generally cheaper at this time. Once we see the market flooded with EV cars, the prices will come down and fuel cars will no longer be the norm, but we’re likely a decade or more away from that.
I get what the CEO is trying to say, but it’s still incredibly tone-deaf.
Also the recharge times are still a deal breaker for anyone who fancies a road trip every once in a while.
If your road trips are only once in a while, you easily make up for it in saved time not doing weekly fill-ups.
What, you don't like spending a quarter of your road trip waiting for "fuel"?
I spent under an hour charging on a 8 hour drive. I barely had time to pee or eat before the car was ready. Have you road-tripped an EV?
8 hour drive averaging 50mph(to be conservative and easy math) for 8 hours is 400 miles. What EV can go that far?
Assuming you charged before you left
Charged midway
Charged when you got there
You charged three times for an hour? Even not counting the first charge, you'll absolutely need the last when you get there. That's a min 2 hours charging for an 8 hour trip or about 25%.
there's a couple EVs that can go that far. I rented a Tesla Model Y Long Range, which cannot. I did not leave with a full charge and didn't arrive with one either. You don't need to.
I charged 3 times on the way up the coast, for 15, 10, and 20 minutes. The last one was was only longer because I ran into target to get something.
That's... 9%.
What car takes an hour to charge?? I used to have a Chevy Bolt, the slowest charging EV you can buy. and it didn't take an hour.
Go play around with A Better Route Planner if you want to see that assuming 3 hours of charging for an eight hour trip is ridiculous.
Edit: 50mph on the highway is laughable, I was going 80-85mph. It's a bit over a 500mi drive.
That makes sense. I forgot they charge a lot faster when low and assumed a full charge. I've only ever driven a Tesla model 3 once on a business trip. Mostly city driving so no long trips.
No, I don't have 80k to spend on a "maybe I won't be too worse off"
it was a rental car lol
though you'd be surprised to learn there's EVs under $80k! not that anyone can afford new cars anyway.
I bought a used Leaf for $11K about 5 years ago. Best car purchase I've ever made. I still have a ICE vehicle for road trips, but man do I like the way electric engines produce power!
Used EVs can be a great deal! I've had my eyes out for a good deal on a leaf for ages, but not many pop up in my rural area.
Leafs have problems with battery life but they are popular in Southeast Alaska because it’s not really possible to drive very far. They import them used from the lower 48.
I can very much recommend a dacia spring. I think this is one of the most affordable way of transportation. But I live in Switzerland, we have a great charging network and our distances aren’t to far. After paying 5500 CHF upfront, i pay monthly 200 CHF for power and leasing fee (170 + 30). After 3 years I can buy it for 10000 CHF or just give it back. Buying the car directly is about 20000 CHF. Just make sure that you order fast charging as well.
My Chevy Bolt cost less than half that, and that was new with most of the bells and whistles. I drove over 200 miles on a single charge yesterday. Longer road trips are doable with a tiny bit of planning and multitasking. When you're charging, do all the things you do on a road trip anyway: take a leak, grab a snack, give your mind a quick break.
My car is also the 2nd worst major EV for road trips (after the Nissan Leaf). The Volkswagen ID.4, for example, is a little more than half your $80K number and charges about 2-3x faster than the Bolt.
It's also pretty awesome to not have to go to gas stations as part of your ~weekly routine because you charge at home and it costs next to nothing.
Agreed, it's also true that used combustion engine cars can be a great value.
What he actually meant to say was:
“I’ve got my head so far up my ass that I think everybody should be spending $100k+ on a truck regardless of their need or financial circumstances. I’m also incapable of doing my job, which is why my company can’t produce enough units, even though it’s largely a solved supply chain problem. This is how I cope with my shitty existence on this planet.”
Well maybe if this guy sold an electric car that people could afford, they would buy it
Startup costs need to be softened with a costlier higher margin vehicle. Cannot achieve quality mass production of cars from thin air.
Right but don't make vulgar statements about how fabulous you are, and how stupid everyone else is but not buying your fabulous expensive car that's fabulous and expensive, but that's fine because you're a startup.
The comment is taken out of context if you'd maybe read the article. It's a comparison between a Suburban and Rivian who are in the same bracket.
I just looked up the price for a Rivian truck and holy shit is this guy for real? Lmao. Just another out of touch CEO virtue signaling. If he really felt this way he would make them affordable lol
CEO of an electric car company recommends that people drive electric cars.
Doesn't really seem like much of a headline.
The statement might be more significant if it was a CEO of a car company that made diesel/petrol cars who said it.
It's more the tone deafness. Most people couldn't afford either a car or a horse barn in 1910 just like most people (in America anyway) can't afford an electric car.
How to tell the entire world that you're rich and entitled.
Have you seen the price of electric cars it's ridiculous. No way I can afford one.
Also never mind the fact I have no way of charging it because I only have access to on-street parking. If they really wanted to help they should bring down the cost of their massively overpriced vehicles and also invest in distributing charging points around the country.
Isn't the ultimate plan supposed to be that they'll be at least one charging point and every highway at least every 8 mi?
It depends where you are and what market segment you’re looking in. In NZ you can buy a fully electric MG ZS EV (7 year warranty) for almost the same price as a base model Toyota Camry.
A new Renault Zoe is about 23 000€, which has a driving range of about 400km. Second hand they go for about 10 000€.
Yeah, there are many luxury EV brands, but those aren't the only ones existing.
Please pay for my apartment complex to install charger plugs in our garages then.
I'm totally onboard with EV's, I just can't have one right now.
If you just have a regular plug in the garage, it works. I thought that I would have to get a special outlet put in, but after plugging in at night for a couple months I realized there was no need. Figure about 5 miles per hour recharge. I have an older used Leaf that was relatively cheap.
I have outdoor parking :/
I don't have any electrical plugs in my garage. The best I can do is commandeering a 60 watt bulb socket with one of those adapters that turns it into a socket. Also, I don't think the apartment complex is rigged up to charge tenants for the cost of running that bulb and garage door opening either. So they probably would be pissed if I started charging a full EV in there.
They won't even notice. Unless you live in an electric supply desert, charging an EV 0-100% is ridiculously cheap.
Yeah, so, how much is one of those Rivian trucks, exactly?
$73,000?
Yeah, fuck off. That's more than the median annual gross income for American workers. It's all good and well to tout a slightly more sustainable form of transportation--still not nearly as sustainable as busses or trains!--but when you're pricing it well outside what most people can rationally afford, you're not helping the situation.
Average transaction price for a new vehicle in the U.S. is already at $48k. Plenty of electric models are below the average price by now.
The fact is, if you're considering buying a new car, you're already on the richer side. So this message is mainly aimed at those richer Americans considering a $73,000 F-150, that they might want to consider a $73,000 Rivian instead.
Even in that instance the Lightning is a better deal.
and it's only $40,000 to repair a bumper dent! such value!
https://www.thedrive.com/news/rivian-r1t-fender-bender-turns-into-42000-repair-bill
All these products have to come to market in order for prices to eventually come down. People need to see that they have viable options to gasoline cars.
In Norway, more than 80 percent of new cars sold are electric. There are many other options that don't cost $73,000. Rivian is just one option.
IIRC, Norway also offered substantial tax incentives to people that bought electric cars. IIRC, the fed. gov't did the same in the US, and car companies responded by raising prices by the amount of the incentive.
Ah, because the only EVs in the market are Rivian ones.
That's true but you have to consider how much of the car market is made up of used cars. When I was last shopping for cars (4 years ago) there were hardly any EVs in my budget and the ones that were, were 10 year old Priuses. Most people frankly don't have the income to buy anything more than a gas car. (Market for EVs may have changed since my experience). The way I see it is the CEO is making a good point while also shitting on poor people.
The first response from Google shows me several late model used Nissan Leafs for around $15k. Those didn’t have much range but plenty for most people’s day to day
A giant electric "luxury" truck is still a giant "luxury" truck. Buying one over the other is like buying a cruelty free synthetic beaver cap over a cap made from an actual beaver. Yes it probably is better, but you are still wearing an ass on your head.
It's 2023, most people live in urbanized areas where a truck is similarly ridiculous, especially the modern "luxury" models. Those that actually use their vehicles for hauling things at a farm want real work trucks and tractors (regardless of engine type) with lower and longer beds.
If they had decent range ones for just a bit cheaper...
It's minimum like $30k right now and that's just too much for most
Plus a lot of people still don't have anywhere to charge them.
Otherwise I'd have liked to have gotten one
A Bolt, after all the tax incentives, comes in at around $18k!
Really? Can you actually get them at MSRP in any decent amount of time?
And is that federal? I thought Chevy ran out of their tax incentives...
Not as of last January when I tried to buy one. I was able to test drive one and found it acceptable but it was the only one available, it was significantly over MSRP (it was Premier trim, so >$35k) and I could order one but they flat out told me I'd be waiting a minimum of five months.
GM did run out, but the rules changed in 2023, so there is no more cap. GM and Tesla get the incentives again.
But the problem is. It’s a bolt.
At that price that seems like an alright car. It's just a bit slow to fast charge.
Am wondering if the new ones can actually fit someone who is 6 feet tall in the back seat without them having to hunch over
That'd be fine if I didn't have 3 kids with car seats! I need a soccer mom vehicle.
Who cares what a CEO has to say?
We can give them a little credit when they speak out against fossil fuels, as a treat.
I buy what my meager wage allows me to afford...
Make an EV that competes on price with a Corolla and I'll be there.
Yeah, big words from rivian. Trucks that cost more than a luxury SUV.
Even then. My Corolla cost under $15k brand new off the lot. It’s not the base model either. The base model for the 23 Corolla is almost $22k. Car prices are insane.
The only new car still sold in the US for under $20k is the Mitsubishi Mirage, and even that model will likely be phased out in the next few years. I also wouldn't recommend buying one, as, speaking from experience, it tends to roll over in a slight breeze.
Weird, I've had one for years and it hasn't flipped over once.
20k is way too much for one, but I bought mine new for 14k. It's an economy car, not a Mercedes, not a sports car. And they're 100% better if you get one with a manual transmission.
In 1910 the Model T had already been in production for 2 years. Remember that the Model T was designed to be cheap, so that every American could afford one.
If anything, this is more like buying a horse (not building a barn) in the "Horseless Carriage" era of the late 1800s. It was an era when cars basically looked like horse-drawn carriages but without the horses. Everything was custom-manufactured, and it was expensive. You could maybe see that these "horseless carriages" were the future, but they were still pretty impractical for the present. The world still had infrastructure only for horses, and not horseless carriages.
And yeah, if you were rich enough you might want to do your part to get rid of the major pollution problem of the day -- streets absolutely filled with horse shit. But, that didn't mean it was necessarily a practical idea to be one of the first to jump on the bandwagon.
Buying any car, electric or otherwise, is 'Sort of like building a horse barn in 1910’.
Real sustainability comes from changing the zoning code to cease outlawing walkability.
Let's say that it depend on where you live. In a big city maybe a car can be useless (or less usefull), but in a small town like mine a car is basically the only way to move around since public transportation is really limited.
Even if you remove all the private cars in a city, you will discover that you will substitute almost all of them with small/medium trucks to deliver all the groceries/products you (end everyone else) need in your life. And I say it living in a small town where I can almost do the day by day chores without using a car.
A single delivery truck carries 100-200 packages, if everyone drives to the store instead, you'd have 100+ cars on the road. There is a huge difference.
I am not sure that there would be a so huge difference, especially outside some big cities and especially if you add also the public transportation to the game.
But maybe I am wrong.
It would be quite large. The vehicles per household would decrease to about 1 instead of over 2.
That would barely scratch the surface, I'm afraid. For quite a lot of America, not owning a car is simply not feasible. I don't have a large friend/family group, but in 4 cases now, we've had to relocate our families a town over because wages aren't keeping up with cost of living. So we all have long commutes now. There are no buses, trains, etc. We were priced out of housing market. When my landlord sold the property and forced my move 5-6 years ago, I could rent and pay 30% more for a smaller place, I could buy for what I was paying if I wanted to move my family of 5 into a two bed with no yard, etc, or I could move a town or two over pay a bit more, and get a decent size house for my family. Today if I had to buy a house, I couldn't even come close to affording the place I live in now, especially not at 7-9% interest compared to the 3.5% I got.
Now I guess you could still say fuck me I should have given up my dogs, moved my family into a shoe box and just walked to save the planet, but even then that's not really feasible. In a town of 60k I moved from, there is only bussing, and even then they don't run often enough to a wide enough range of places that you're not building in additional hours of the day to get where you're going. And they often don't run past 7pm or before 7am. And that's most of America. Even in large cities, public transportation is severely lacking compared to the rest of the civilized world.
Biking in the US should also help be a stopgap, but our whole society is so fucking car centric even that's even not really feasible. Aside from the fact that most of infrastructure rarely has bike lanes or even places to store bikes, its still lacking severely from "I'm just going a few blocks over to the bodega" every few days and is more like "just 5-10 miles to the grocery store." And this is just looking at my tiny little town where I live that is nowhere near as bad as somewhere like Houston, which is far more populous and also even less dense and less traversable by anything that's not a car.
In 2023, saying people shouldn't own cars is either ignorant of the issues around it or just classist. The Rivian CEO saying shit like this, with a starting price of $73k, is just more classist CEO bullshit. We don't even have the charging infrastructure at the moment to support everyone buying electric, not to mention I'd be willing to bet that 50% or more of this country can't even afford the starting price on whatever the cheapest electric is.
Reply:
WHY IS IT NOT FEASIBLE WHOFEARSTHENIGHT? IS IT BECAUSE OF ZONING? ITS BECAUSE OF ZONING ISNT IT
I hate armchair urbanists so much it's unreal
Rivian CEO should keep his mouth shut until a few grand gets you a used compact electric hatchback (VW Polo or similar) with a decent battery.
To be fair the headline is a bit clickbaity. The quote is referring to someone buying a new Chevy Suburban in 2030. It would be kind of dumb to do that in my opinion, but I also would never buy a new car anyway.
CEO of a product ridiculing a competitor's product? I'm shocked, shocked!
In 1910, in the United States, there were about 5 automobiles per 1,000 people. His analogy is stupid.
Source: Oak Ridge National Laboratory, Transportation Energy Data Book: Edition 33, ORNL-6990, Oak Ridge, TN, July 2014, Tables 3.5 and 3.6.
I think his analogy is accidentally spot on. ICE cars are going to be around for a while
For a very long while, which makes it so important we switch away from fossils fuels to co2 neutral, synthetic fuels as fast as possible. And in Europe, nobody wants EVs anyway, sales dropped like batshit crazy and everyone is getting ICE cars...
Synthetic fuels would be great for all the existing stuff, but not sure where you're getting EV sales are down in Europe.
New plug-in car registrations:
From https://insideevs.com/news/680428/europe-plugin-car-sales-june2023/
Sure, let me just fork over 80k for a truck from a company that's been building cars for only a couple of years.
My next vehicle will likely be electric, but right now my wife and I have decent cars that still run, and are paid for, and I'm reluctant to waste money replacing something that still works.
I'm on a diesel and the emission zones in the UK are making it more challenging to own one. That said it has 750 miles range, 4 wheel drive, a station wagon, can actually tow stuff without halfing that range and can fill it up anywhere in minutes. It suits my lifestyle perfectly.
That and it cost me £2600.. I wonder what electric car I could get for that.
I think you're looking at electric bikes rather than cars for that money.
Haha exactly it's crazy
Considering any new electric cars you buy would have to be made from materials mined and processed, manufactured into a vehicle and then shipped long distances before it even gets to you, keeping your existing car and maintaining it well is possibly better for the environment when the entire life cycle is considered.
While true for most devices.
With cars there is a big secondhand market.
Any new car added at the top trickles down and removes a polluting heap of junk at the bottom.
80k and it cuts my carbon emissions by less than half. Which might be washed out completely when you consider that a Rivian weighs over 2x what my car weighs.
Electric is the future. But it is a boutique luxury right now. A compact ICE is probably just about as good a choice for the climate as a electric mega truck. Call me back in five years.
Maybe if the alternative to building a horse barn in 1910 was building a garage that was so expensive only like 5% of the population could afford it.
barns are still useful and valuable today. this guy is a moron! he might have said something that made sense, like buying a new horse-drawn carriage. still, didn't it take a couple/few decades for everything to switch over to cars?
Got a battery powered van with a wheelchair ramp? No?
OK then.
Yes, people already have modded wheelchair ramps for the F-150 and model Y. It can be done, it has be done, it will continue to be done.
I'd bet the conversion companies could almost as easily convert the phev Pacifica as the gas only Pacifica.
Mans just mad people arent buying his cars.
The infrastructure just isn't there yet. If you live in apartments, where will you charge it? Can the overall electrical grid handle the load if let's say 50% of people that own an electrical car? How do these cars do in extreme weather conditions? How much does it cost to repair them? How long will they last for? EVs are super expensive.
We can't even decide on a standard charging port.
While I will eventually get an EV, there are problems that need to be addressed still.
Tesla has ton of quality issues and riven is brand new. Why would I trust them?
I think the charging port thing is slowly resolving Type2/CCS seem to be winning. Most chargers I find that are relatively new support both type 2 and chademo. In a few years I don't think you will need to consider this and if buying today I'd stick with type 2.
I also heard that since the electric grid is designed to handle peak loads, it is over specced for today's needs and there is a lot of time during which it could be updated before we get closer to its limits. I also had these thoughts but in practice most people charge overnight when a bunch of daytime devices are off. We might not use 7kW at home during the day, but businesses use a ton of electricity during the day. AC when is hot heating when it's cold, PCs and monitors during the day, lights even though its daytime and that is before you get to a lot of power intensive specialist equipment that isn't used at night typically, like hospital diagnostic instruments etc etc etc.
I also wouldn't judge everyone on Teslas track record. It is clear other car companies are going now slowly and taking more care. Rivian may be a bit different being a new comer but that is certainly true of the established manufacturers.
The UK was replacing their old streetlights with LED, which frees up a lot of electricity.
And at the same time put chargers in every street pole they replaced.
Those apartments can charge there.
-- a friend of mine just got a Tesla, despite living in a townhouse where he can’t charge. He goes out to charge on weekends, similarly to how he fills the tank in his gasoline car. It’s not as convenient or cheap as being able to just plug in, but it is a reasonable thing to do
— how do you think apartments and condo complexes will get charging infrastructure? It won’t just appear and landlords/associations have no incentive to spend the money. The only way this happens is when EV adoption gets wide enough for them to see they’re losing money without it
— who cares about a charging port? Adapters are cheap
— Tesla’s quality issues are old news, that I don’t think is true anymore. Yes, they had issues scaling up, and discovering what other car companies already knew about mass manufacturing, but I believe they worked it out and are more similar to other manufacturers
— Tesla may dominate th EV market in the US, but every car company has an EV, with dozens more models coming ou in the next year or two. If you don’t like Tesla’s try something else. Personally I’m not sure I can afford a Tesla but an interested in seeing whether GM can deliver on their announced pricing for Equinox and Blazer
It only seems reasonable until you take a step back to consider the bigger picture, which is that areas zoned for townhouses ought to be walkable. The fact that he even wants a car -- electric or otherwise -- to begin with shows that something went very, very wrong in the design of the entire neighborhood.
Several things went very very wrong ….
The context is the Boston metro area. We do have pretty good transit, for the US. Most towns are old for the US and built up long before cars, so do have walkable centers with higher density housing ….
So they built this complex in a swamp, oriented around cars, not walkable to anywhere. Exits on a main road that doesn’t even have sidewalks. And somehow for a car oriented development, it’s in an area without decent roads, so it’s not even easy to drive anywhere … and the complex is a black hole in the map of high speed internet: the only part of town not served by fiber
It's almost never easy to drive anywhere car-oriented (except rural areas): too many cars get in the way! What's more, this is true no matter how "decent" the roads are, due to induced demand. The way to make it easy to drive is to provide alternatives so that the other folks use them and thus get out of the way.
You're right, but not in the way you think.
The real issue is that if you live in an apartment, you shouldn't need or want a car to begin with. The fact that so many people seem to think they do is a gigantic flashing neon clue that we've fucked up the zoning code and managed to build the apartments wrong in such a way that they're not in a walkable area despite being dense.
The infrastructure change we need is to be ripping out the parking lots, not installing EV chargers in them!
There are places where this is just not possible. I live in very hot climate and people would be dying all the time due to heat exhaustion and dehydration if this was the case. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but you can't simply say, fuck cars. It doesn't work this way everywhere. I would say that public transportation needs to be greatly improved upon and invested in though.
I've lived in places where I don't need a car and it's great and shitty. I've lived in places where you do need a car and it's great and shitty. I've lived in places that have great transportation and it's hot, but again, it's great and shitty. There are trade-offs with whatever you go with. I do agree that we should focus more on better zoning and better public transportation.
You say that as if cities in hot climates didn't exist before cars.
You're totally right. The world hasn't been getting hotter due to climate change and people didn't use horses. How could I forget.
I point out that a hot climate isn't an excuse for driving instead of walking or biking and your bullshit takeaway is to insinuate that I'm some kind of climate change denier? Fuck all the way off with that!
Congratulations, that nonsense you've written is the most bad-faith reach I've read in a while.
Your comment is hogshit. It's just comparing apples to oranges. It's meaningless and unhelpful. You're trying to suggest that something worked before so we should continue to do it. Should we not take vaccines next because that worked before? Should we not use soap too because they didn't have that back then? Should we go back to riding horses? Should we all live in huts and mud walls? Should we not use electricity anymore as well? Humans have done this in the past so it will totally work in modern society, right? See I can say stupid shit too.
Pure projection.
You say that like it's a bad thing?
Besides, it's not just that. What I'm actually suggesting is that we've thoroughly tried the alternative, and it has proven to be a failure. Never mind screwing ourselves over with climate change; we're also going to simply bankrupt ourselves if we keep building sprawl.
Oh, fuck off back to Reddit -- you're trolling in bad faith and you know it. Not only that, but what you wrote isn't even accurate in any sense because that shit didn't "work before!"
Oh, and you get to change your battery in 3 years for $20k because it's worn out.
There are some big problems that get glossed over that you learn about when you own one, unless you've done enough research to know when people are blowing sunshine up your ass.
Current battery technology easily lasts 10 year. The good ones even outlast the car they are installed in.
Our Prius lasted 12 years before we sold it, and it was still going strong. Newer batteries have improved their life expectancy. My experience makes me doubt your claim both on life expectancy and cost. A quick search estimates the (battery) cost between $2000-$4500, depending upon installation cost. We replaced the Prius with another hybrid that gives us 65 mpg/28 kpl. When infrastructure gets better, We will fully switch to electric. ICE engines really are that much more inefficient. Equivalent electrical costs are pennies per gallon. edit added: (battery)
I don't know about that price, even used EV batteries aren't that cheap. I just bought 43 kWh of LFP batteries for my home and they were almost $10K, and that's less capacity than most EV batteries.
I did a search to buy Prius batteries. I remember searching for how to replace batteries years ago and downloading the instructions. There were quite a few steps because of the potential of fire, if shorted out, but otherwise was pretty straight forward.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/155688032892?chn=ps&amdata=enc%3A1a2PXQDe8Q9uosuxnz69ArA87&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&mkscid=101&itemid=155688032892&targetid=1644837436283&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9018572&poi=&campaignid=20125739985&mkgroupid=149128855676&rlsatarget=pla-1644837436283&abcId=9312975&merchantid=6296724
NiMH is pretty ancient tech for batteries. These would only be relevant to that specific model, and they're reconditioned. Search up EV CATL LFP batteries and see how much those run.
I don't know where you got that info from but that is certainly not the norm... There are Tesla cabs in Vegas with over a million miles, and most of these battery packs retain close to 90% of their capacity even after 10 years. I'm sure there are exceptions, but 3 years is silly.
Yes there are problems and hurdles to overcome but I'd rank that pretty low.
I worried about the battery until I had this thought (and looked at the 8 year warranty ):
Phone battery, charged every night, approx 1000 charge cycles thus lasts 3 years ish.
Car battery, charged as needed maybe every 4-7 days. Approx 1000 charge cycles thus lasts 12 to 21 years. Total battery failure is something else entirely but you said "worn out".
If you needed to charge every night it might mean short range which means cheaper battery to replace or you are doing lots of miles. My car could do 200 miles easily before recharging or up to 300 with more care. If doing 200 miles a day you are doing 73,000 miles per year so in 3 years 220,000 approx. Any car probably needs some serious work done to it after that much.
Anyway we are still bringing this tech along so I reckon either prices will drop and/or car manufacturers will make them more serviceable so you don't need to replace the whole thing but maybe sub modules at a time.
Hey rivian ceo, build more fast charging stations along interstates and not just in big cities. Or build EVs that can go at least 500 miles on a charge.
Ok, that will be $150,000.
Are batteries included?
To unlock the extended range feature, sign up for premium for 499 per month.
Just the one
Why buy an affordable horse when you can buy my product for 3 years wages? Smh you guys are so old fashioned.
Bruh I can't even afford a EV.
Cant afford a horse either. Double screwed.
Definitely can't afford a horse 😞
Horses are cheap; horses you can ride are expensive.
If solid state batteries do work out line Toyota says, these old EVs aren't going to be too attractive
Maybe. I remember when I built my computer in the mid 2000s (in high school) and saw something about magnetic RAM and how it would be a huge game changer. I thought about holding off so I didn't build something that would immediately be like buying something that runs on vacuum tubes in the age of transistors, but decided I wanted the computer sooner than later, it would still be useful, and who knows what would really happen with this magnetic RAM buzz. 20 years later, magnetic RAM has not, in fact, changed the game.
Even if Toyota does pull a rabbit out of its hat and they build a bunch of cars in 10 years, that 10-year-old car built today won't be particularly attractive anyway.
The average age of cars on the road in America today is 12.5.
They better be attractive in 10 years or they won’t have an easy time with initial sales. The EV glut on dealer lots right now is representing that now - ICE vehicles are backlogged but EVs are plenty (but overpriced for their longevity).
I like the idea of electric cars, may purchase one, but they don't make sense for everyone at this point. The infrastructure isn't there, they're very expensive, the range isn't practical for some, and many of the choices are unreliable. I applaud those who can make them work, but they're not for everyone yet.
Range really isn't a big deal. Pretty much any car will get you from one charger to the next, the question is how long you'll have to wait to charge. On most cars, 30 minutes of charging will give you a couple hours of driving. Keeping in mind that you can leave home on a full charge and arrive at your destination on nearly nothing, charging overnight, it's not bad at all.
Oh, and check Plugshare. You'd be surprised how many DC fast chargers are out there. You've probably passed by some and not even noticed. There are a few deserts out there (looking at you, Wyoming) but they're building up FAST. A year ago there was a 135-mile stretch kinda near me without anything along the way. Now there are two on that stretch.
Actual (chopped up) quote from RJ:
This article is clickbait garbage.
Electric vehicles are the future of cars, but it will mean an entire extra class of people who will be cut off from car ownership.
And they're not going to like it.
The only people who will be cut off are the petrol junkies.
EV's are getting cheaper by the minute, and the second hand market is growing intensely.
ALL of the off-roaders who have gone electric that I know have a gas-powered generator they throw in the back for when we're 200km up a logging road.
How much does it cost to repair a fender bender on a Suburban? Cus on an R1S, well...
Yikes! Are you supposed to just throw the truck away when someone hits it?
In my state the minimum legal auto insurance coverage is something like $25k per vehicle. So it's very possible, at least here, that your rivian gets a parking lot bump from Jim-Bob in his 30 year old Civic, and his insurance just won't cover it. And if he's driving around in a car that's old enough to run for congress that's covered by minimum liability, Jim-Bob probably doesn't have any money you could sue him for. I doubt they would garnish wages over a traffic accident, either.
Insurance and parking are two deeply costly aspects of subsidizing roads and cars over mass transit that simply aren't accounted for. Imagine thinking an effecient industrialized society would have strip malls and cars.
Haven't read the article yet, but the quote irks me. I live in a home built in 1920 by a rural "house doctor" with a barn and stalls and all that jazz. Electric may be the future, but gas cars will still be around a while. The same way horses didn't immediately disappear from rural areas when cars became affordable.
It's called a stable. And if you keep horses then yes you need to build one.
How many of us keep horses?
Severely depends on where you live. It's very common in many areas of my state. Many farms have horses. Many people keep horses at other locations than their house, but still it needs a stable. Just because you don't personally know people with horses in no capacity means it's not something people still do
I don't drive a lot any more now that I work from home...but if I purchased an electric vehicle, the batteries (arguably one of the most expensive components of the vehicle) are slowly degrading whether I drive it or not, and I would either have to throw away the whole car or replace the extremely expensive batteries as early as 10 years (assuming the company who built it still exists). If I buy a gas-powered car instead, there is not a significant expensive component on it that starts totally degrading over time whether I used it or not...except the 12v battery under the hood that I have to replace every 5 to 7 years.
That Rivian CEO is suffering from affluenza and seems to think people are made of money.
Psh -- Try 1895. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daimler_Motorized_Carriage#:~:text=The%20Daimler%20Motorized%20Carriage%20was,car%20was%20sold%20in%201892.
I don't want ev, I prefer more hybrid maybe even hydrogen.
This guy's a fucking airhead. They're trying to rush out the cheaper smaller SUV model because they massively overestimated demand for their overpriced truck/SUV. It's 80k base and by the time you get the AWD and increased range package I imagine everyone who is their target market wants it well over $110k.
This will probably be the last big EV startup we see. After this the real caranufacters are going to take over. Which I'm a bit sad about as they don't seem to ever take any risks. I'd been saying for years there was surely demand for a small truck like the maverick, now everyone's making one. Just wish Elon wasn't so dumb and had made the cyber truck that with a electric drivetrain.
The value add for an individual is minimal to nonexistent in electric vs gas. Not so with a horse vs a car. This guy is delusional if this isn't just hype (it is) and thinks the comparisons are comparable.
Meanwhile gas starts at $8.34 per gallon where I live, while I can charge my car for $0.42 per kWh.
While I'm sure there's a large saving, a gallon of fuel is not the same as a kWh of electricity.
Agreed, most people don't really know how far an ev goes on a kWh. In my experience: Trucks average 15-20mpg. Evs average 2.5-4mi/kWh.
Let's take the high of the truck and the low of the ev for comparisons. 8.32/20=0.42/mile gasoline 0.42/2.5=0.17/mile electric
In my case both are cheaper as my fuel is~$4.30/gal, and the car I drive gets 38mpg. (0.11/mile) But also my electricity is 0.12/kWh and my electric car gets average 4mi/kWh. (0.03/mile)
My ID.3 does about 300km fairly reliably, for €25. My wife's Mazda 2 does 650km for €71. But destination charging around the corner went up €0.10/kWh in my street, so it used to be cheaper. My home charger installation is still backlogged (ffs it's been months).
To me it doesn't matter really because my boss all of my charging as well as the EV car payment. I just pay a tax to be allowed to drive my company car privately without restrictions. Obviously my wife takes the EV when I don't need it.
I'll consider buying an electric vehicle when they are no longer irreparable, unmaintainable, privacy blackholed, iPhones on wheels.
My last car purchase was £8650 for a 1L petrol from 2016. And I bought it this year.
If he could direct me to the nearest electric car of the same price and range I'd be happy to buy one, until then it's a stupid comment and ICE are going to be here for a LONG time, purely because not everyone can afford expensive vehicles.
I agree. In Europe some not mega big electric cars are already on par with their gasoline equivalent
Maybe some people want to tow.
I'm in the market for a new car and it sure as shit isn't gonna a be electric. Maybe that's because I don't have $80k to drop on a new car. Maybe it's because I have zero interest in dealing with range issues. Maybe it's because every EV is a goddamn touchscreen on wheels.
The Rivian R1T's towing capacity is 11,000 pounds, so you can absolutely tow with one. The question is if you're talking about a trailer around town or a large camper cross-country. The former should be no big deal, you can always charge at home and start your day off full, but admittedly you'll be stopping to charge a lot more with the latter.
That said, most people don't carry campers cross-country, let alone frequently
But for how long? The real world tests I've seen on some EVs is pretty poor. If I'm towing something like an RV, it sure as hell isn't gonna be for just 50 Km, and it's going to be up and down massive hills where I'm from.
I conceded as much in the last two sentences of my post.
It would be like burning coal to make the electricit....oh
Even if an EV is 100% powered by coal power plants, it would still produce 40% less Co2 per kilometer than an ICE.
ICE are just that inefficient.
If the EV was powered by 100% solar panels, that would rise to 90% less Co2 per kilometer.
And before you start with "EVs are more polluting to produce", know that EV's still would pollute less than an ICE after about 25 000km.
Most cars easily drive 4 times that in their lifetime.
Got any links to support these claims? I'd be interested to know more for when people bring up the same argument as the person you're replying to.
Not OP but searched up EE's video on a topic like this. Been a long while since I watched it so I don't remember much about it in description is the sources. So at the very least you can check some of that type of stuff.
https://youtu.be/6RhtiPefVzM?si=_i0p3AQftvmqXcal
But yeah in general an ICE is horrendous at efficiency vs electric. An ICE blows some 70+% of its energy on making heat we don't use but instead actively use some of the available energy made to cool it.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/6RhtiPefVzM?si=_i0p3AQftvmqXcal
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
😍
I'm not currently in the market for a truck and I don't know much about Rivian. Now I know for sure, based on this alone, I will never buy a Rivian vehicle. I used to consider buying a Tesla as well, but won't for similar reasons.
I wouldn't go buying a VW group, Ford, GM and probably others then for their penchant to kill or poison people for profit.
I think hydrogen fuel cell cars are the future. Batteries are by accident, planned obsolence. You have to buy a new car every 5 years due to batteries losing their charge over time.
There is a common misconception that EV batteries die within five years, forcing owners to buy a new car. However, this is not the case.
Battery technology has improved significantly, and new types of batteries, such as Li-S batteries and lithium titanate batteries, have the potential to last the life of the car or even outlast it[1].
Many EV manufacturers offer warranties for their batteries, typically ranging from 8 to 10 years or more, indicating that the batteries are expected to last for a significant portion of the vehicle's life[1].
With proper care and maintenance, EV batteries can last for a considerable amount of time, and ongoing research and development efforts aim to further improve battery performance and longevity.
Citations: [1] https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/bf453504da210fe289e61421933334ee811026b4
Show me any car using Li-S or Lithium Titanate batteries that is sold and on the roads today.
Hydrogen is interesting for remote use cases, but the 10-15 year old used Leaf and Volt market argue against your second point. Most battery issues will be discovered in the first few years and after that it's minimal (1-10%) loss after a decade, using far older tech than today's models. The industry does need some standardization on battery modules to ensure less e-waste, more mechanics, and better pricing.
Have you even bothered to do the most basic Google search before posting this BS?
Tesla's battery warranty is 8 years and between 100-150K miles. I'm not sure about other manufacturers.
And where would the hydrogen come from?
The two most common schemes are either producing it from natural gas, or wasting electricity to produce hydrogen via electrolysis.
Either way, hydrogen is a waste of resources for most applications.
Much like his company, it's a copy off of Elon Musk
"If you buy a car that does not have the hardware for full self-driving, it is like buying a horse,”
Edit: This is supposed to be an insult to the Rivian CEO, making the same dumb jokes. Not a state of support to Elon, the whole context around that quote is wrong.
At least horses do have selfdriving if you're going home wasted from the pub.
Full self driving horses that also have built in memory of where home is.
Let's see how those battery packs are doing in 10 years you fucking wank stain on humanity.
Fuck rich people.
Either still driving perfectly fine or found a second life as static energy storage before ultimately being recycled.
Where I am the price difference between a base model Camry and a Model 3 is 21%. A difference I’d make up in lower running costs within two years.
But you're comparing new cars. I don't buy new cars, probably never will. There are no electric cars worth their salt in my price range, which is in the 10yo second hand range.
Absolutely sensible choice. You’ll benefit from a lower capital outlay now, and will realise the savings once second hand EVs hit your price point.
Anyone buying new would be wise to consider an EV (if available).
Are all EVs garbage when it comes to repairs? Seems like no EV manufacturer considered repairability when it comes to collisions.
Problems with electric cars :
Cost morenup front Claimed range is NEVER real not even close Batteries are super expensive to replace or repair and wear out sooner than ic engines Bad on the environment to manufacture Lack of charging stations makes fake range numbers super bad Slow to charge Useless on road trips Range even worse in the winter Its better for the environment to keep an older car on the road than to make a new ev
You could really do with some punctuation.
God damn! I concur. That was difficult to decipher.
Let me help you
Cost more up front: yes, new stuff always does
Range is never real not even close: evidently tesla has been lying about range, but for the most part, if you use an AC in an electric vehicle the batteries die sooner...which is the same with ICE vehicles. Use more energy = deplete faster.
Expensive to replace: yes
Wear out sooner than ice engines? Oh I don't know about that. There's no moving parts in an electric car. No oil to change, timing belts, no yearly tightening. There's still tires, brake fluid, and a host of new issues though. But they do not wear out sooner than ICE vehicles.
Lack of charging stations: yes, a limited problem, but in my area there are tons of them and you also charge at home and work (work is free, so it's free gas)
Slow to charge? 10-15mins wait is really not a deal breaker, you're just making some extra time to use the bathroom and get coffee.
Useless on road trips: I personally just rented a full electric and did an 800 mile round trip. It was not that bad.
Range worse in winter: goes along with 'that's how batteries work'. Plan your trip.
It's better for environment to keep older car on the road? Hard NO. Older ICE cars are less efficient with gas, which uses more gas. Getting a newer more efficient ICE car is better for the environment.
Creating a battery is bad for the environment up front, but after that there's a very small impact over the lifetime usage of that battery.
On the other hand, creating an ICE engine is light on the environment, but through its lifetime pollutes. Way larger impact on the environment than the electric.
Thank you for doing this so I didn't have to
Probably best to avoid these new tech-car companies if all their CEOs are going to do is just shoot off bad takes. Says a lot about the company culture IMO ☹️
Just leave people to buy whatever they want to, and importantly, whatever they can afford.
As much as I like electric cars, it's not affordable or sustainable to splash 10k every 10 years on a new battery. If I buy a combustion engine vehicle, I don't need to replace the engine/[insert heavy and expensive component here] every decade or less, assuming good maintenance.
Teslas are very good at looking after their batteries, but those are expensive. Nissan Leafs (older models/2010s) are cheaper, but they have no active battery cooling system to thermally protect the batteries, so you'll probably be replacing those more frequently.
10k every 10 years vs ? a new car every 10 years?
For that cost, the owner is likely to just purchase a new car IMO.
There's probably going to be very little interest on the secondhand market for a BEV with most of it's range gone, and a battery replacement due. Most of these may end up being parted out and scrapped, rather than reused like older combustion engine cars are, despite the pollution they produce.
Edit: rewrite response
::: spoiler Old comment
Ideally, no car.
Realistically, any reliable older used compact car/sedan, that will cost you far less (just maintenance wise, not considering taxes, insurance, fuel etc, since maintenance would be the closest analog to the battery replacement labor and cost IMO) over the same period of time, and will likely keep on getting you from A to B for 10 years and more, with no gradual reduction in range inherent to a BEV, and no environmental issues trying to dispose of a massive lithium battery (unless a bulk grid energy storage firm buys it from you).
They're both rubbish options environmentally speaking IMO, but a used combustion vehicle is far cheaper to obtain and maintain for the end user, and can generally be kept running and sold onwards to others until it's totaled, without any of the many owners needing to worry about replacing a battery.
:::
Fuck you! Not everyone can afford that shit asshole. Guess I can add another electric vehicle to the do not buy list if I can ever afford one.
Why get butthurt with a historically accurate statement? By 2030 you should not, in good faith and all things considered, buy an ICE vehicle at all, even today some EVs are already cheaper than their ICE counterparts.