Every day it feels like we're getting closer to battery revolution. It really makes you wonder how different the world will be once we have these incredible batteries actually working at consumer level.
Every day it feels like we're getting closer to battery revolution.
It's been "every day" for as long as I can remember. Some new world-changing battery tech is right around the corner, but never manages to appear in consumer vehicles...
Battery tech has still come a long way since say 10 years ago, even though the "next gen" stuff hasn't made it to scaled production. Looks like this is the beginning of scaled production, though.
Looks like this is the beginning of scaled production, though.
Production is a tiny link in the supply chain.
According to the article they've sent them to manufacturers for testing and that's it.
Even if they were able to make them they'd still be impossibly expensive for decades, as the implications of such a technology would be gargantuan.
Nah, see the battery density graph here. Batteries have made great progress already, and it's accelerating because suddenly there are trillions of dollars on the line for anyone that can make big strides in battery technology.
Battery tech is constantly having huge breakthroughs. They are just come in small steps.
I mean a smart phone is literally a battery powered computer. It's absolutely astounding compared to what we had 10/20 years ago.
Only thing I'm upset with is that we get more battery capacity, but not longer battery time. I want to clock my phone down to save power, but that's not allowed.
Most phones have some sort of "Ultra power saving" mode that gives a lot of battery life.
I always use the power saving mode, however my experience is that the battery time is almost the same irregardless of battery capacity (comparing arbitrarily över the years)
It's absolutely allowed.
It's not as good as previous versions but I am running stock android and I have wifi power saving and phone (background) power saving modes available. I just checked and the estimate of time until zero percent battery goes from 22 hours to 28 hours with the node that limits backup processes, and that is with 59% on the battery.
There was a power save mode on my old phone that made everything grey screen and stuff that was way better. I think I enabled it for a camping trip once and used like 20% battery in 3 days.
Yeah the more power phones have available the more manufacturers use.
It's why I miss replaceable batteries.
That made me think of the fairly low res picture of the menu screen from Mario Bros on the NES with the caption "this one image takes up more memory than the entirety of the Mario Bros game code.
Good lord...I remember getting a 1GB HDD and thinking "welp, never gonna use that up" then a few years later installing Diablo2 and seeing it was 1.1gb...
Battery tech is constantly having huge breakthroughs. They are just come in small steps.
My guy, those are opposite things...
Not really. They have massive breakthroughs that increase capacity and charging hugely.
People just seem to expect some world changing development constantly.
Depends on how you define "constant". Battery prices have been falling year over year, no thanks to technological improvements.
If we're referring explicitly to Academia and R&D, then OP is correct. You're main point is that these huge breakthroughs haven't affected the market, but OP isn't arguing that.
There may not be a revolutionary discovery, but we are nearing a tipping point where battery makes more sense for most disconnected power storage than anything else.
The cell phone I had 30 years ago had a battery pack that was about as big as my current cell phone and was 500 mAh. My current cell phone has a little battery tucked away in it that stores 4000 mAh, recharges about as fast, and can be recharged more before it loses a significant amount of its capacity. It also costs about 1% per mAh of the price of that battery from 30 years ago.
Just because you haven't bothered to investigate advances in battery technology doesn't mean significant advances haven't occurred.
True, as far as big leaps go there hasn't mean anything since the introduction of lithium based batteries to the market.
Until now. This is it and they have production working. Safer than lithium. Longer lasting, quicker charging, should perform fine in extreme cold, more energy dense, and solid state.
The next big thing is finally here.
I know you're correct, since there are now solid state batteries on the market which outperform liquid-electrolyte LiPo batteries, but just stating "we're at the tipping point" without dropping any link as evidence makes your claim very unconvincing.
That guy on Undecided is a bit of a dunce. He never actually checked or tested in any way that the yoshino psu uses real solid state batteries. He just bought it from Amazon and it's advertised on Amazon as having them.
But they likely aren't solid state batteries in that psu he bought. He even admitted as much in a podcast just last week.
Other people have done teardowns on those yoshino batteries and have apparently found that they are not solid state. They still contain a liquid.
So we're still in a limbo period with nothing actually on the market.
Correct, but it's on well enough authority that the batteries exist and are in production and that units are in the hands of EV manufacturers for them to play around with. Consider it like the time period when no one has the next game system yet, but everyone knows that all the game developers have the dev kit for the soon to be released system.
Until now. This is it and they have production working.
I hope you're right, but I'll believe it when I see it.
A giant name like samsung and the auto makers they've teamed up with like Toyota aren't going to bullshit about the batteries being in production. There's no benefit to doing so. It's not like they're trying to raise investment capital.
Samsung is not the "bullshitter". Samsung did not write this article. Samsung didn't claim that these will be in cars or anywhere else anytime soon.
Yes they have. Not from this article, though. Same for Toyota. They announced a 2027(likely) solid state battery EV months ago.
As for "samsung didn't claim this", they put the battery on display at the trade show in Seoul, and it's been reported by tons of outlets. Samsung has very clearly announced it.
No they haven't. Samsung didn't say they have a 600 mile battery. The author did. Which is nonsense for a variety of reasons, which is exactly my point
They announced a 2027(likely) solid state battery EV months ago.
...likely? Based on what?
they put the battery on display
No one is trying to claim the battery doesn't exist so I'm not sure what your point is.
They’re coming off a pilot production line and have shipped to vehicle manufacturers to see if they want to incorporate these into upcoming models.
Problem will be the price for the first run of this tech. They’re targeting “ultra premium” vehicles until they can scale and optimize manufacturing.
The market will segment away from the current tech anyway. CATL Sodium-ion with comparatively low densities but also extremely low prices per kWh will likely win the low-end market and the market for stationary solutions. This is just due to the much lower resource costs. The high-end will be up for things like this battery by Samsung (or other comparable pilot products). The current technology will likely be in a weird middle spot.
And those cheaper batteries may not be as compromising as people think. In terms of kwh/kg, the sodium-ion batteries coming on the market now are about where lithium poly batteries were about 4 years ago. It takes a few years before new batteries make their way into EVs, which means EVs being purchased right now have batteries with a similar kwh/kg of the new sodium-ion batteries. Those batteries are around 30% cheaper and don't have the same level of fire hazards as some lithium chemistries.
So if EVs on the market today have adequate range for your use, you'll probably be just fine with a future sodium-ion EV.
There won't be many charging stations able to output that kind of wattage tho
It will still be a dramatic improvement because these packs will be able to hold the max charge that the charger can support for much longer. E.g., a car that can hold 350kW from 0-90 is much better than one that peaks at 350kW for 2 seconds before dropping to 150 or 100kW for 40-90%.
Can you imagine not having the constant traffic noise played into your ears like tinnitus, being able to maybe actually breathe the oxygen nature provides. That’s probably gonna be what it will be like. But still, ev are just a stop gap, more privately owned cars isn’t the solution in my humble opinion, it is a start towards it.
Totally with you, but tire dust is one of the major pollution particles from cars, maybe even the worst AFAIK. That, sadly will not go away but it is still leagues more desireable to have everything on electric than fossil fuel. Can't have perfect stop good enough.
Yep, tire pollution is even worse with EVs due to their weight. But overall it's still much better as you said.
It would help if cars went back to a reasonable size and not the absurdly large monstrosities that dominate the market today.
It's even hard to find an EV sedan. There are like 3 models under $70k. Everyone wants to make SUVs instead.
That's the real kicker. Gets especially hard if you don't want a Tesla.
Many of the conservatives who cite heaviness of EVs as a problem didn't say shit as ICE cars got heavier and they bought F150s to go to Walmart.
Yep, I'm all for it. However, they would be still heavier compared to equivalents ICEs.
There's no reason to think that will last. The kwh/kg of batteries improves by 5-8% per year, and we've been in the higher end of that range the last few years. Meanwhile, EVs are about 30% heavier. It will take a few years of improvement to make up that gap, but there's every reason to expect this trend to continue.
Also, it takes a few years for new batteries to find their way into existing models. 1.08^4 = 1.36, which means improvements in batteries since 2020 could have made up this gap already.
Yes, sure, batteries are evolving and there are solid state batteries on horizon, though probably very expensive initially. There is also a concept of getting energy wirelessly from road, which could further reduce battery sizes. I'm sure the future is bright.
This really only applies to oversized electric trucks and SUVs, due to their low efficiency and associated need for massive batteries, not EVs in general. Mine weighs the same as a comparable sedan.
Unfortunately EVs are mostly comprised of oversized SUVs but not exclusively.
If you're concerned about tire pollution, you can switch any vehicle to a harder rubber compound, at the expense of grip and safety.
Perhaps they compare, but assuming small batteries and consequently small range. Which might still be fine for shopping and shorter trips I guess. And I agree that oversized EVs is all the rage these days
The tire noise EVs make is about the same as an ICE car at about 50 kph (30 mph) so it doesn't make much difference on busy roads. It does make a huge difference in slow traffic.
It's not tire noise that bothers me, it's the folks who seem to think that the rest of us will think they're cool for being able to hear their engine roaring down the road from a quarter mile away.
They'll switch to very loud music unfortunately.
I would rather hear loud music than ear-piercing motor noise.
The traffic noise will stay the same, from tires, honking and some fake engine noise they'll mandate for pedestrian safety.
Do yourself a favor and spend some time in an area without cars. It's amazing what it does to your mental health.
About noise, above 30km/h electric cars are as noisy as gas powered one.
It's better but not the panacea either.
Solution: 30km/h speed limit in cities, which is a good idea anyway for safety reasons.
Yes, it's better for safety and health reason.
Plus 30km/h is in the speed range of bikes, so it become much more accessible to bike around in the city and more people start to do it.
It’s 30mph not kph. City streets should be limited to 20mph anyway.
Building massive production capacity to replace all the cars just locks us in to having cars though
we’re getting closer to battery revolution
If big oil doesn't buy up the patent and squirrel it away.
I waited 4 years for battery technology to get better before bring an EV last year. The "battery revolution", with all the news being generated weekly for years, is still not here. I don't give a fuck about theoretical battery range - give me the actual battery in a car, THEN it's newsworthy. Now it's all just theoretical, which we consumers can do fuck all about.
And that's the thing. As much as we've gotten used to it over the past hundred years, progress is absolutely not automatic.
If people don't buy the current stuff, it reduces the chance of advancement for that tech. Most things will only get better if people are buying the current versions.
We've had solar power tech for 50 years. Solar initiatives under Carter were actually pretty good. You know who killed it, or I expect we'd have solar on most roofs today.
I recently visited Switzerland, and the amount of rooftop solar there was insane.
(Solar is of course closely linked to battery tech.)
I totally agree with your statement, but in the 4 years I waited, nothing has actually happened with the batteries on EVs (except for a bit faster charging on already insane charging times).
Well, Toyota has promised 2026 for their battery tech and hasn't changed that guidance, so I think there's a decent chance they'll stick to that timeline. I don't know if Samsung is their supplier or if they're competing on the tech, but if it's the latter, I expect we'll see something in the next 2-3 years.
I'm still convinced Toyota is just announcing breakthroughs miracles in battery tech Coming Soon™ because they shit the bed so hard on the first round of EVs. Now they're trying to discourage people from buying EVs now while they play catch-up.
Well, the good news is, nobody is making an actual solid state battery car, so if they don't deliver, I'm not out anything. The current set of EVs aren't good enough to replace our family car (we like road trips, and even 300 miles range is too little), so I'm waiting regardless. I'll be looking for announcements in the next year or two.
Both of our cars are Toyotas though, because they make really good cars. We have a Sienna for our family car and a Prius for my commuter, and I'm probably going to replace that Prius with an EV if I can find a good deal on something with 150 miles range. The Sienna is getting old (nearly 200k miles), but it's reliable, so I'm holding off until I can either get a good deal on a hybrid/ICE, or reasonable EVs are released. If that's Toyota, great, but I'm not buying the first gen of anything regardless.
I've found the current gen of EVs is perfect for road tripping with my family. The battery range is perfectly sized for the bladder sizes of my kids. It works really well if you're road tripping at a casual pace. However I know a lot of people that like to "death march" road trip where they won't stop for 500 miles at a time - so I admit it's definitely not for everyone.
Yeah, I have kids, and we can usually get about 300 miles before someone needs a bathroom break. So usually I refill gas (<5 min) while the kids go to the bathroom, and we usually pack enough food with us (sandwiches and whatnot) that we only need to go to a restaurant once on the trip.
An EV could work if fast chargers were as plentiful as gas stations, but in many of the areas we go (I live in Utah and travel to WA, MT, ID, and CA frequently), they're pretty infrequent. So we'd need to plan stops based on charger availability, not on bladder size, which means an extra recharge or two for the trip. It's getting better, but every time I look at maps, there are maybe one or two chargers in a 50 mile radius, so if it's full or out of service, we'd be screwed.
Now, if gas stations started offering EV charging, I'd probably be looking at them today. Gas stations are perfect because they often have fast food, bathrooms, and snacks, all of which are essential for road trips.
As another anecdote, my coworker just bought a Model 3, and he frequently says he can't reasonably visit places within our state because the charging network sucks. That's a pretty serious concern for us, since we like camping, which means pretty remote trips.
This is the real next step, every other battery hasn't made it to production, but if they're sending out working EV batteries to EV manufacturers and have production line running then it's finally real.
And as soon as Korea starts mass producing long range, quick charge solid state batteries, the factories in China are going to start mass-producing them as well.
Regardless of what it means politically, this is fantastic news, I didn't know they were actually producing them beyond prototype stage into commercial production.
I don't trust it. Off brand looking name. Has the high price, but then their upcharge for a few cheap looking solar panels is like a ridiculous $1400.
thats fine but I found out about it from a guys youtube where he ordered one and put it to the test. the guys channel has mostly been about his construction of a super efficient house with batteries and solar and such so I trust it exists as a product. not saying to anyone to buy it but was just showing they exist and are being sold. its not a wait and see battery technology anymore.
Are you talking about Matt Ferrel from Undecided?
Yeah....he doesn't know a lot about batteries, really. He's also doubled back after having some battery teardown reports shown to him and now says it doesn't seem likely yoshino is using a real solid state battery.
So no. It isn't likely "yoshino" gets to be the first to market with a real solid state battery in their product.
I have no doubts it exists as a product. I have doubts about its battery. I'd like a big transportable battery backup device, but I wouldn't want to spend over $1,000 on such a thing if they battery is bad after 10 years. I can buy a gas generator for $500 and it will work fine for over 20 years without an issue. The battery just makes it much more convenient since there's no worry of running out of gas and it's silent and runs indoors.
So its like the first thing out from this tech and the point of this tech is longer lasting batteries. Well and lighter. Anyway, again, the point is the tech is here.
The tech is here. I don't believe that it's in that psu.
ok. thats fine. im not a shill for that product its only an example. we are agreed the tech is out of the lab and being manufacturered and sold and is no longer a batter vaporware. Its incredible and a rare hopeful spot for nowadays.
Oh yea, I hadn't heard of that, good share.
That's very cool
I bet the Europeans and Americans already work on imposing tariffs.
On Korean products?
Exactly. Our government doesn't hate foreign EVs, they just hate China. That's really it.
I mean it is just economic warfare. China substitutes their EV producers to undercut competing countries. They respond with tarrifs. That is business as usual since global trade exists.
Won't matter much; Chinese EVs are so inexpensively made, especially with subsidies, while exceeding European and American auto safety standards that tariffs for the last five years haven't stopped them expanding outside of Asia.
In addition, EVs are so much cheaper to produce, run and maintain for auto companies that tariffs aren't going to make much of a difference stemming the continued EV manufacturing explosion.
Capacity and range will just keep going up, any tariffs have so far been and will be footnotes in EV story rather than any sort of relevant market mechanism
Chinese EV sounds terrifying. I am sure the specific cars they sent for safety testing were well made and passed just fine, but I wouldn't get into their production run vehicles.
Nah, these are the exact standards US/euro cars are tested by, tested annually from regular production, not specially chosen cars.
Besides, it isn't like American or European companies didn't make production line cars that literally blew up if they rear-ended someone.
So far the manufacturing of exported Chinese EVs is doing very well, and each product is tested upon import anyway to make sure it conforms to the regulations of that country.
Tanking a potential market like this for the Chinese doesn't make any sense right now, at least outside of their country it makes the most corporate and political sense to do what they're doing and exceed European and American auto safety standards.
You should be more concerned about privacy invasion from the smart tech rather than the physical safety of the vehicles.
Oh please! I'd love to see Big Oil shrivel and die just like our societies and very planet have under their influence.
They will just take all their oil billions and buy up battery companies at the last moment.
They can do that with a lot of them, but not all. You can't really sell an oil platform when nobody is buying oil anymore. The "stranded assets" is a huge motivator for fossil industries to prolong the switch to renewables as long as possible. Problem is the governments being complicit. They could have made clear paths from when on no new fossil investments were allowed to create a proper phase out.
How are they going to convert their assets in that scenario? The value of oil will just go down from here on out, eventually it'll reach a point where it starts going back up again because it'll be such a hard to acquire commodity for the few people that want it.
Eventually we'll get to a point where the only people who use oil are rich people who can afford to run vintage cars and presumably pay some kind of carbon offset tax.
the future is in plastics
And even for vintage cars and stuff, I assume we'll see better eco friendly and bio fuels being created that could be made in smaller batches without needing to use conventional oil as the fuel. Starting to see more and more of this on aviation already, and even some old warbirds have done recent tests on these fuels and run really well.
Yeah the US Airforce tested all their planes even the stealth bomber on a SAF that can be made from sequestered carbon, they said it passed all tests and that it would be a great way to be fuel independent, they're especially interested as it seems to look possible to fit carbon capture and processing in a small enough package to fit in an aircraft carrier. Even if manned planes aren't as useful in future conflicts we'll likely see drones that use jet fuel replace them.
I mean they absolutely will when civilization collapses due to climate collapse and accompanying weather events, famine, droughts, and plagues.
I take solace in knowing that they can build all the luxury bunkers they want, but they will one day come to realize they are their tombs, protecting them from the world and species they damned, including for any of their muh legacy nepo babies huddled underground with them, for a couple million years.
I'd appreciate if people just like you would stop taking any solace and tolerating this bs. The ONLY reason this shit continues to happen is because too many people do nothing. Then when asked they get defensive and say, "What am I supposed to do?!" followed by "What are you doing?!" Like guys, you're smart enough to recognize the perils of these industries, read journals and papers, and internalize the evidence, and you can't fucking do a quick Google search on activism and even lightly contemplate entering yourself into local politics?
Come now.
I was part of Occupy, and it was mostly the fellow peasants being hurt from this system laughing us off the street. I made phone calls for Bernie's primaries.
I still vote the least non-progressive out of harm reduction, and will vote for Harris, as I would have for Biden's corpse, just as I did voting for his corpse the last cycle, and Clinton before when not many showed up. But I no longer have hope. That's just so I can look myself in the mirror and say I did the right thing in the face of madness.
Good on you if you have hope, rage against the dying of that light. I've seen too much to believe that the nobility of the human spirit will prevail.
I was taught a lesson when I was younger that you cannot compare your trauma to that of another. I also learned that it isn't rage which defines progress, it is determination. Apathy, a loss of hope, quells the spirit and stunts progress. Those not on the Right are especially individualistic. We cater to the spirit of independence, while also celebrating love and community, though always as individuals to individuals. It's not "I" or "Myself" that makes the change. The shift happens when we step up together and change sets in when there is a united, achievable goal.
In near every recent movement the Left has been a part of with the exception of Bernie, there has been nothing that was clearly defined and clearly achievable. Just a bunch of angry people loosely pointing fingers. FeelTheBern DID work and imagine how things may have been different not if Bernie had been elected, but if we with our strength of spirit continued down a united path. Bernie's ENTIRE message was never about getting him elected, it was always about us coming together and being active as one.
I'm sad that so many people seem to have forgotten that.
I hear you about the long arm of history, and I might even agree, but not just our society, our species was put on notice we are risking the habitability of our only shared, sole habitat in the medium term a century ago. Now it's here, it's accelerating, we are feeling amuse bouche of our reverse terraforming project, scientists are finding new runaway effects their conservative estimates didn't account for, and still humanity collectively shrugs because we can't disrupt our global economy short term even to literally have a future for our species. We, the US, are among the leaders in the world in terms of accelerating that destruction.
I likely would have more of an attitude of not for us, for our children if that weren't the case. But physics doesn't care that we are the slow learners and selfish fucks. I hold the shame and guilt in my heart for my son's likely hellish future that I really can do nothing about short of becoming an ecoterrorist which for the record I'm not planning on becoming.
Time is no longer a luxury humanity possesses. We needed to take drastic, draconian, lifestyle altering changes decades ago, and we still aren't willing to entertain such things today, with shattered heat and earliest cat 5 hurricane ever records.
Exactly why "we" is important. People are struggling and it's difficult to consider the world when your own life is falling apart.
Unfortunately I don't have a true solution to this beyond the need for a real leader to step up. Well...there is another solution, though I'd rather not speak of it for fear of ending up on a list. It's also not one I support. Still, I feel strongly that we can find our way.
At the very least I'm not just going to roll over.
You say "do something" and follow or with "protest"?
Concrete is effective at sealing shut bunker doors, and air ventilation systems, as is caulk
Yeah, but humans are not very effective at organising humans to act in their best interests in a coordinated and logical manner. I feel that this will be even more of a challenge post-collapse. Some bunkers may get caulked. Most will get left alone.
It comes with their version of a calendar installed and it wont charge unless you grant it permissions to access your gps log, at which point it will crash.
Seriously, why are they so absolutely shit at software. It boggles the mind.
Their batteries are usually top notch. If you're hunting around for 18650 cells--which are notoriously bad for fake claims on Amazon and Aliexpress ("80,000mAh!!!!" when the best 18650 cells are closer to 3,500mAh)--a genuine Samsung cell is a safe bet.
Well my $1800 phone has push notification ads for mobile games I can't disable because Samsung flags the Galaxy Store as a system app so you can't disable notifications. You can see here that the option is greyed out.
They also install shitty games with "security updates" every month or so.
Never seen those before on my Samsung tablet.
It's been really bad recently on my Fold 3, but didn't start happening until about a year after I got the phone.
I think they wait for all the reviews and "1 year updates" from the YouTubers to pull this shit.
They honestly can't make that much off this bullshit on a per-device level. My phone costs more than 2 cars I've owned, and I could just buy a Pixel Fold next upgrade, so it wouldn't take a huge percentage of users jumping ship to mage or more costly than profitable.
If MKBHS, Linus Tech Tips, etc called them out in their reviews of Samsung devices it would stop overnight.
Samsung pays them too much for them to rock the boat.
Dear God yes, why the fuck is my Fold trying to install fucking candy crush and a bunch of other games every time it does a software update?! And recently it has a new system app trying to install games as well, that comes back if dismissed in any other way than opening it to get the offers and then clicking on the never option. And apparently never is like 3-6 months according to Samsung, because it does come back.
I really hope the Pixel Fold 2 is a solid phone, because that is where I plan to migrate to after nothing but Samsung phones since the Note 3, which was has been all downhill since TBH (RIP microSD cards).
I'm so glad that the launcher I use has a "Recently Installed Apps" button at the bottom of the apps list. It makes it so easy to go through and scrub the bullshit they install on my phone.
You can kinda turn them off if you silence it like I did
There's actually a way to kill them, but it's super hidden.
You have to go to the phone notification settings, go into advanced settings, select the option to disable notification categories per app, then go back into notification settings, open the app list, open the three-dot menu and select system apps, then find the Galaxy store, then select categories to disable.
Easy, right?
hmm, so... I had the notifications category set to on. by doing this, I could see the different categories, so I think you have to have it on to select the correct categories instead of switching it off like you said.
HOWEVER, check this bullshit out:
I can't turn important updates off, and there's one they don't even let me see. wtf!! I wish there was another company that did folding phones as good as Samsung 😢
So you want the batteries to not show ads? I don't understand. Do you have any actual relatable issues between the batteries and other products?
How about the time they had to recall their flagship phones because the batteries were exploding and ended up being banned by the FAA?
So they changed our all the batteries, and re-released the phones, only for them to start blowing up again?
When 2 different manufacturers both have a design catching fire, it's the design that's the problem.
The first was a design issue, the second was a manufacturing issue. Both should have been caught by Samsung's QA.
Use ADB to disable Store and AppCloud (adware/nagware that should be killed with fire). No, not the notifications, the apps themselves.
It's ludicrous that my phone costs more than 2 different cars I've owned and I have to go through this kind of bullshit so they can make another 15 cents on average per user.
so why would you buy an $1800 phone if you can't root it and load some FOSS on it?
Because I don't want to lose my warranty on a phone with a soft plastic foldable screen.
Yeah, denying warranty for rooting is technically illegal, but knowing that doesn't do anything for me.
I swear I read about how some companies have managed to come up with some break through to charge or increase battery capacity every few months, yet these are never make it to market.
Cold fusion is right around the corner!
Cold fusion is right around the corner!
i thought they're already at "triple cold² fusion++" ;-)
yet these are never make it to market.
my personal favorite (but not a battery) were two different fake news about fans without any moving parts, one with electricity, conductors and shapes only, the other using ultrasonic somehow, how cool were these lies !!!
"RSD5 is the culmination of six years of research by Dan Schlitz and Vishal Singhal of Thorrn Micro Technologies"
"Six years of research", such a cool "product" and now that linked thorrn domain is for sale, how bad!! the world will never profit from their super "cool" invention !!!
"today" other bladeless fans (based on ultrasonic freqs) were anounced:
https://linustechtips.com/topic/1471374-not-a-big-fan-new-solid-state-cooler-can-blow-air-with-no-moving-parts/
("Frore is expecting to start shipping units in Q1 of next year." which was news from 2022)
but did you hear about that cool product beeing shipped yet? i would have, i'm somehow sure, but somehow i didn't. maybe the "units" they wanted to ship were just something else *lol
That article also says:
"Frore Systems hasn't announced any actual computers featuring its Airjet solid-state coolers. But the company is already in partnership with the likes of Intel […]" no actual result, but already partners like intel (intel, how does'nt that already fit !!)
The same nonexisting effect (fan without moving parts), abused (at least) twice. (i'll just ignore those "bladeless fans" here that officially just have hidden "propellers")
but military says "twice" is already a scheme...
why should it be different for batteries?
if they produce batteries THAT good, they would never sell them but make them available only for rent, to maximise their(!) ROI (and not yours). so i guess it's yafn - yet another fake news. i might still be wrong however, but i also like to be on the safe side of predictions ;-)
a theory:
the richies offsprings startups desperately need other lies than their parents and grandparents who already used up nearly all language-allowed possible lies (as well as nonverbal lies, just watch tv for a while to see it in action) to distract people, companies and govs to 'invest' in them instead of i.e. in the future or in the nation, thus new nonexistant technologies is what the richies offspring found best to be their lies about.
But: Battery capacity, charging and discharging speed, price has dramatically moved in the last 20 years.
So while it’s easy to disregard revolutions, evolution has most definitely occurred. And many of them are fuelled by what gets hailed as a revolution and then, quietly, sneaks into the current production processes and makes it to market.
This one is definitely real and will be in cars (whether it's Samsung or someone else), probably by 2027.
I posted about this a week ago. The battery pack will likely be around 150kWh (Nio has a solid state battery car that will be produced that can do 577 miles on a 150kWh battery). The 9 minute charge is from 8-80% (according to the marketing material I dug up) so it is 432 miles of charge in 9 minutes. Considering fast charge costs like $0.50/kWh currently, I'm guessing most people will not be charging up that entire portion unless they are planning on driving for a long fucking time...after they have already been driving for 9-10 hours.
But that charge rate would have to come from a charger that can output much higher than current ones. The highest output you are likely to find is 350kW which would take 18 minutes to charge that 108kWh. So while this battery can charge that fast, you are not likely to be able to find a charger with that high of output for a few years. Still great to be able to get a couple hundred miles of range in 9 minutes. Solid state batteries supposedly have a quicker ramp up period and can take the full output for a higher percentage of the battery.
There are already some charging stations in Germany offering 400kW. Still 16 minutes though. 800kW is just insane. CCS is currently capped at 500kW, so you would need MCS which is planned for trucks.
Fucking hell, imagine the requirement of a couple of megawatt substation for fast charging, urban power planners must be shitting themselves.
Urban probably isn’t too bad, if it’s a proper city they already have power for the infrastructure of subways, lighting, and large buildings.
Where it’s going to be tough is putting these in the ‘burbs or the large areas of mostly vacant interstate. There’s just no infrastructure for them to build off of, and EV charging infrastructure is already one of the issues holding people back from more widely adopting them.
Yeah, just the random added load equivalent to 80-100 houses per car, any time between 5am and 9pm would be enough to send local suburban grids into a spin, especially in summer evenings when there's peak loading already underway. A lot of infrastructure would need to be beefed up to make it reliable.
We have an EV that charges on 110v current. It’s not fast, but plugged in the previous evening it will be ready to go by morning. Not a huge draw on the grid off household current. Obviously, just like you point out, more EV will increase demand…but charging off 110v overnight isn’t going to be as demanding as a “gas station” for EV that all want fast charge for people that maybe don’t have charging access otherwise.
I imagine there would have to be some sort of organized system to pick charging time slots via the local electricity provider in order to keep the grid stable. EV owners could certainly get an electrical timer or via the EV manufacturer app to set a charging time.
Yeah if you've got home charging it's not a real issue. We use 240v here in Aus so you can pull quite a bit out of domestic outlets before having to get serious and generally overnight charging to top up the day's commute would be fine.
So it wouldn't be a fast charger on every street, and you could always enforce limits by time of use pricing to put a dampener on peak loads.
I just wonder if utility planners might get caught with their pants down on this one. Like, could you say 5 years ago chargers might run to 800kW?
I’d say grid planners everywhere are under serious strain. The demands for air conditioning in public and private spaces are getting higher, the number of household electronics is climbing along with data centers constantly consuming ever more amounts of electricity…now we add EV charging to the mix.
Yeah, I’d say they haven’t been able to keep up.
lol, I am picturing buried thorium salt reactors at charging stations in the boonies.
Many rural areas honestly would not be too bad since power plants are usually out there. Those generally tend to have pretty decent power infrastructure. It might be different in other states though. Here in Washington dams and wind farms tend to be pretty far out of town.
That’s fine if you’re lucky enough to have a power plant nearby, but they aren’t exactly evenly scattered about for the benefit of building EV charging infrastructure.
Replace the gas stations with that stuff and have a charging network distributed around parking areas.
I think in some years it's considered a common requirement. Just compare it to pipelines. Electricity is way more easily transported and still we built tens of thousands of [preferred unit for distance measurement] of tubes on to the landscape.
If you do the math, the common standard plugs simply can't do the charging rates that would be required here. You'd need a whole new plug design on top of all new chargers.
It's also silly and unnecessary. We should focus on getting more chargers out there, not chasing a fast charge time goal. If you plan your route out a bit, 20-30 minute charge times every 2-4 hours are fine for the vast majority of people.
According to this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196 the standard was updated in 2022 to support up to 1500V and 800A.
If this can be achieved simultaneously it would be 1.2MW.
Whether it is necessary or realistic is another thing, but seems to be achievable without even changing the plug.
Does fast charging reduce the lifespan of a battery like this? The headline is bothersome because my suspicion is it won't last 20 years if you fast charge all of the time and whatnot. I realize that's not a typical case but it's good to understand the trade-offs.
The chemistry is substantially different, so we'll probably have to wait until scientists run some tests to get a more precise set of parameters that affect degradation. I expect failure modes like dendrites are basically impossible with solid-state, but electrode cracking is still possible. There might even be new and exciting ways they can degrade! Regardless, this is still great news.
You know, with charge times like that I wonder if roadside attractions will become more popular again.
Maybe I should start on the next worlds largest rubber band ball now.
Well most people are not needing to add over 400 miles when they charge up. That might be the case once a year for occasional families but most will be looking to add half that which is not much more time than it takes to fill up with gas. It might cause charging stations to offer more amenities. Or maybe the government could get off its ass and make it okay to put them in at rest stops, there wouldn't be much of a problem at all.
Honestly, we do that. Almost every year we drive for 13-14 hours to visit my parents, which is something like 900 miles. We usually do 300-400 miles then refill gas and grab some fast food. We usually stop twice on this trip, sometimes three times if someone has an emergency. We also do some shorter 600 mile+ trips as well (in-laws and sibling are just over 600 miles away), and frequently drive ~200 miles, so we usually have 1-2 road trips each year.
Current EVs that get something like 200-250 miles per change would require at least four stops, and 30min or so per stop, which would add at least 2 hours to the trip. That turns a one-day drive into a two-day drive, and probably three days if charging stations aren't readily available. For the shorter trips (just over 600 miles), we'd still need to recharge at least twice, which adds more than an hour to the trip.
So I'm absolutely interested in this kind of range. I don't need 600 miles, but 400-500 would be good. Until they're affordable, we're sticking to our ICE family car, though we're planning to exchange our hybrid commuter for an EV.
That's a long day in the car, too much for me. Any road trip over about 350 miles gets me pretty exhausted and sick of being in the car. So I'd be OK with a 300 mile range and stopping overnight at a hotel with a charger nearby for trips like that.
I grew up with it. Almost every year we'd drive 800-900 miles to visit family, and almost always in one day. We've done it in two before, but honestly it's more of a pain to get everything unloaded and get the kids to actually sleep in the hotel that we just drive all the way through. We arrive exhausted, but it's one long day instead of two.
That is the case for some people but cases like that are pretty rare. There is no way I could do a drive like that. Current EVs are fine for the vast majority of people but there is the rare family that makes 900 mile trips once our twice a year. For those instances like yours, I'd suggest renting an ICE one or twice a year if you wanted to switch to an EV for your larger vehicle or get a plug in hybrid.
Definitely swap out that commuter car. A used Bolt is pretty darn cheap. I did some math and replacing our Prius C with one would save $1200/year in gas costs. And then there are oil change costs that you save and a few others.
A used Bolt is pretty darn cheap
Yeah, I've been looking at them, and it's something like $13k, which is definitely in the reasonable range of prices, especially since I can probably get $5k for my current car.
However, I'm worried about battery issues. People claim it's fixed, but I'll be parking mine in my garage and there's a lot of flammable stuff in there. So I'm a little hesitant. I don't need to ever fast charge it since I only drive like 200 miles per week (and never more than 100 miles in a day, usually like 50), so trickle charging should be totally fine. If I can confirm that, I might just do the swap. Or maybe I'll get a Leaf, which is in a similar price range used.
Our gas and electricity costs are pretty low ($3.50/gal and $0.12-0.13/kWh), so even at $13k, the Bolt would still need ~10 years to pay back for itself (and that's not counting the opportunity cost of investing that money). I'm still tempted based purely on the convenience factor (never needing to go to a gas station again), but it's not a slam dunk yet. If the car dies, I'll certainly replace the commuter with an EV though, I would just rather avoid the hassle of listing and selling my current car.
From a purely climate perspective, it's probably better for me to replace our family car. We get ~20mpg, and hybrids would get 30-40mpg, and a plug-in would get emissions-free for most of our around-town trips. That car is only used for very short trips (<20 miles) or long trips (>200 miles), with almost nothing in-between. But those cars are super expensive right now, so I'm watching the used market to see if I can score a deal.
I would advise against a Leaf, especially used. Nissan was great at getting a popular, cheap EV out the door but they have completely stagnated since then. The Leaf's big issue is that the battery is air cooled. That's fine if you live in Hawai'i where the temperature is in the 70s year round but places that experience heat will see a severe degradation in range relatively quickly. It's not unheard of fire a 10 year old Leaf to only get maybe a dozen miles of range. There is also the fact that it uses CHAdeMO instead of CCS for fast charge. They have finally started to make adapters but they are $1000 and are not officially supported.
If you are indeed worried about a Bolt battery, you could always park it outside. There is not a catalytic converter for thieves to rip off so being out of a garage is not a big issue in that regard.
I would agree that switching will likely not make a ton of sense for you. Thankfully in my state, they offer a rebate for EVs on top of the federal credit so a used EV for us would pay for itself in about 5 years.
you could always park it outside
I'm not worried about theft at all. My neighborhood is really boring and my city has one of the lowest crime rates in the area, with most of the crime happening on the other side of the city. It could happen, but I doubt it.
The bigger reason for the garage is climate control. It gets pretty cold in the winter (5-15F is common), and the non-insulated garage generally keeps it above freezing. That should help with the battery, as well as avoids having to scrape the windshield.
they offer a rebate for EVs on top of the federal credit
Yeah, if we had that, I'd probably jump on it. But there's a bigger chance that my vehicle registration tax will increase to offset the lack of gas tax than a rebate happening.
Another issue is that a lot of our energy comes from coal, so switching to an EV wouldn't be a a dramatic as other areas in terms of carbon footprint. I'm considering getting solar (about a 10-year payback period if I DIY), but I'll need to also replace the roof when I do, so I'm putting that off as well.
Anyway, I want an EV, but as you said, it probably doesn't make sense for me. But I do like the idea of never having to refill my commuter, which I currently need to do almost every week.
Or maybe I'll get a Leaf, which is in a similar price range used.
If you will EVER need to fast charge then the leaf is going to be more annoying because it has CHADeMO and not CCS
Get the bolt unless you're certain that'll never be a problem even once, it's seriously not worth it anymore
Source: longtime happy leaf owner who hates CHADeMO as it cannot be easily converted to CCS like NACS can
I can't think of a reason I ever would, it's going to charge in my garage 100% of the time, with the only exception being if my company installs charging stations. But they're about the same price used, so maybe I'll just go for the Bolt. I just need to do a bit more research to see if the battery issues happen when doing level 1 charging, since that's what I intend to do in my garage.
Your math checks out.
Charging a 600 mi battery in 9 minutes would require a charging station that can output somewhere north of 1.2 MW.
We need major upgrades to the electrical grid as well as doubling our electricity generation capacity for charging stations and vehicles like that to be common place.
No, if a product exists, it will be subscription based. That seems to be where we're at these days...
The idea of ownership is being destroyed
Only because things are too expensive for plebes to buy outright! Mortgages are basically subscriptions too. Or “layaway” at least.
Thanks to monthly payments for everything, you can have whatever TV you want!
Honestly, if a product last forever I wouldn't mind it on a subscription model. The company needs to make money in order to, at the minimum, continue supporting the product.
Then comes the costs of support staff, R&D for future product developments, etc etc.
That price should not include massive yearly bonuses for the top execs.
It's a battery. You put it in the car, and it powers it. How much support does the manufacturer need to provide that can't be baked into the initial cost?
gestures around Products as a service in general isn't needed, but it's done anyways. Single player games don't need to be always-online and subscription-based. Same with movies. Same with cars. But in the world we live in, everything is becoming X-as-a-service. In this case, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if they purposely built in a chip that would disable or otherwise limit the battery unless the purchaserclient continued paying the subscription fee.
I've been saying electric cars are never going to catch in until they can keep up with gas on affordability and how far you can go. This is how you compete with gas!
Now we're cookin' with gas! er...without gas.
Even if you do find a viable alternative, we need to change how we live and invest heavily in public transit everywhere
All we need are swap stations and cars that can be battery swapped.
Charge speed is also extremely important. People keep waxing on about it only takes 15min to charge, but that's is 3-4x as long as pumping gas.
Imagine if we all switched to electrical with those charge times, gas stations would become clogged almost immediately.
95% of charging would be done at home, since I get tons of energy from the sun. I have a feeling many other people would be doing the same. Highway stations are a different story though.
Non EV owners can't grok how convenient home charging is, and the reality that station charging is a general rarity.
Most people on long-term road trips time their stops with meals anyway. If this became a reality, and charging infrastructure got directly built in to parking spaces at rest stops, then they can probably tolerate a 15 minute wait ti charge while they eat lunch.
We literally can't all switch to electric right now so that's not a problem 😉 but yeah, if I do try to imagine it, I imagine a world where most people charge their cars at home or at work, so the only problem to solve is upping the charging capacity along certain long distance tourist routes. But we can build lots of lovely high speed rail to help decongest those routes 😋
You’re forgetting the role of societal regulation, laws, culture etc.
Electric cars ARE catching on, at their current technology level.
Amazing, now we just need charger infra to be more ubiquitous
That's the main thing holding EVs back in general, in my opinion. That, and the price of EVs. Batteries will get better with time, chargers will get faster. But if there aren't enough fast chargers all over the place like petrol stations, then the adoption of EVs will be too slow for prices to drop significantly until ICE vehicles aren't supposed to be produced anymore.
Also, I hope the electronics industry really gets their shit together in terms of recycling and sustainability.
The weight matters too. EVs are notoriously heavy. You have to haul around the batteries whether they are full or not.
"However, due to their high production costs, these batteries’ initial application will be limited to the “super premium” EV segment."
The weight matters too. EVs are notoriously heavy.
This is a regular argument against EVs but its a weak argument in the real world application in the USA at least.
The most popular EV by sales in the USA is the Tesla Model Y with a curb weight of about 4200 lbs.
The most popular vehicle in the USA is (and has been for quite awhile) the Ford F150 Pickup which a curb weight of 4400lbs.
Yes, many of those F150 trucks are used in commercial or heavy duty applications legitimately, However, many are not. The F150 outsold the Tesla model Y by more than 50%. Why is the argument of curb weight only leveled against EVs, the recent addition to the roads, and not giant pickup trucks and SUVs that regularly weigh much more?
.
Personally I like small, lightweight cars because they're fun to drive and somewhat efficient. Obviously the f150 doesn't light my fire in that regard, but the model Y isn't exactly a nimble little thing either. Between weight and annoying tech (screens and driver assist mostly), I'm honestly not interested in modern cars at all
"initial" could very well be the key word here. Same goes with any new technology, including the relatively outdated Chevy Bolt design (which was pretty expensive at launch and is now a dime a dozen)
Solid state batteries are more energy dense, meaning that if all you want is 300 miles of range on a charge (perfectly fine with it's faster charging), then you can have less battery for the same range. Now how much lighter I'm not sure, but it's in the right direction!
If this works as advertised then it'll revolutionize more than just cars. This is huge
So long as its not 2,3,4 times the price of current cars. Otherwise put them in busses and trains. Cost is strangly missing, I'm guessing because it is prohibitive.
Exactly. I'm interested if this is in the $30-40k range. It's probably not.
965 km ... so aprox 1000km.
So about 1 megameter.
Wow, 1 megameter for a vehicle weighing 2 megagrams. That's some serious efficiency
There's a good chance you are mistaken. It was not specified which type of mile they are referencing.
The only sensible mile to use would be the Scandinavian mile (10.000m). = 6000km range.
Another possibility is the nautical mile (1852m). = 1.111,2km range.
And there are plenty of other "miles" to choose from.
Like Miles Davis... (1.69m give or take a trumpet)
For the trumpet to affect his height... Did he wear it as a hat?
No. He leans back, and blazes music like a bonfire into the night sky.
Mm!
Let me know when I can buy it.
If you own an EV factory you can:
initial batches have already been delivered to EV manufacturers for testing.
Unfortunately, I do not
Well, hurry up and pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
Yeah. I've seen too many battery technologies die in a lab. I need to see it to believe it.
These aren't in a lab. They're being manufactured right now.
There's a toxic positivity in battery tech news. So many things only end up being practical in a lab, but the news headlines sensationalizes every single one. Its led people to believe that no advancements are coming. But the truth is that batteries improve 5-8% in kwh/kg per year, and that compounds over time to some real gains.
I get the cost, but it should be an option to upgrade any current EV to this new style battery.
It's not needed in today's EVs. Things should be upgradable yes, but it's not necessary to replace current existing lithium batteries with this and doing so would probably do more harm than good. The ones we have already outlast the vehicle's lifespan, and go further than a tank of gas.
We don't even know how to recycle these new types, at least we've made some headway with the current gen packs.
I'm thinking less in terms of lifespan and more in terms of range and charging time.
You shouldn't have to upgrade your entire car to get a 600 mile range and 9 minute charge time if all that's needed is better battery tech.
Two questions if that's the reasoning: how often are you driving 600 let alone 300 miles? How often are you out of range of charging, if at all? Charging at fast chargers already only takes 20 minutes, the same amount it takes to pee and get a drink.
Charging at home makes range not matter. It's not gas, you're just always charged up. You don't want to sit at 100% anyway, because again, it's not gas.
There's some EVs that are integrating the battery into the frame in order to save weight. And it does save weight, but there's no way to replace the battery.
That's a super awful idea, so battery EOL = car EOL.
How viable would something like this be for powering a home? Solar panels+this?
These are gonna be hella expensive for a while. If space is not a concern there's much cheaper batteries out there. You don't really need fast charging capabilities either.
In a home, power density doesn't really matter. If a battery is large and heavy, you still only transport it twice. Once new, once when you replace it.
Not very. There's a different sodium based battery being designed for home storage. Not nearly as energy dense, but will last a very long time, can be left outside the house, and uses cheap components (no lithium or other rare metals).
Every car show, they put out 'concept cars' that will never see the light of day.
'New batteries' are giving off the same vibe.
First and foremost, this is the technology community. If you wanted to see mature tech that is in production, you're in the wrong place.
Second, battery tech has had steady improvement for decades. The cell phone I had 30 years ago had a battery pack that was about as big as my current cell phone with a capacity of 500 mAh. My current cell phone has a battery tucked away somewhere inside it that has a capacity of 4000 mAh. The price per mAh has also gone down about 99% over that time span. There have also been three major "new battery" types over those 3 decades. The changes have been happening whether on not you bothered to notice it.
All I see in the thumbnail is delicious, forbidden makizushi
Am I the only one who thinks this is complete overkill? 49/52 weeks a year, I never use more than 15% of my battery on any given day. I don't need 600 miles of range, heck, 400 with a nine minute charge would be incredible. Basically drive 4-5 hours then stop for a bathroom break or bite to eat then keep going.
Am I the only one who thinks this is complete overkill?
You might be the only one that thinks this is overkill.
49/52 weeks a year, I never use more than 15% of my battery on any given day. I don’t need 600 miles of range
Then this doesn't sound like you fit the use case, which is fine of course, but there are many that do.
Delivery drivers that may have to go to far places without consistent EV charging
Winter battery penalty. That 600 miles may be 400ish in extreme cold which many people on the planet live in for at least part of the year.
Heavy loads vehicles. The 600 mile number is used for the basis of comparison to today's passenger sedan EVs. When putting these in heavy trucks, that 600 mile number may be cut down to 300 or even 200 miles, which opened up new avenues for EV heavy goods deliveries.
In short. Its not just about you.
600 miles of range is amazing, plus you have to realize that it doesn't always keep that 600 mile range. Also most people don't charge their battery to a 100%, for longevity they only charge up to 80% for the health of the battery
Then use the same technology to make a 300 mile battery that's half the size and weight.
Every day it feels like we're getting closer to battery revolution. It really makes you wonder how different the world will be once we have these incredible batteries actually working at consumer level.
It's been "every day" for as long as I can remember. Some new world-changing battery tech is right around the corner, but never manages to appear in consumer vehicles...
Battery tech has still come a long way since say 10 years ago, even though the "next gen" stuff hasn't made it to scaled production. Looks like this is the beginning of scaled production, though.
Production is a tiny link in the supply chain.
According to the article they've sent them to manufacturers for testing and that's it.
Even if they were able to make them they'd still be impossibly expensive for decades, as the implications of such a technology would be gargantuan.
Nah, see the battery density graph here. Batteries have made great progress already, and it's accelerating because suddenly there are trillions of dollars on the line for anyone that can make big strides in battery technology.
Battery tech is constantly having huge breakthroughs. They are just come in small steps.
I mean a smart phone is literally a battery powered computer. It's absolutely astounding compared to what we had 10/20 years ago.
Only thing I'm upset with is that we get more battery capacity, but not longer battery time. I want to clock my phone down to save power, but that's not allowed.
Most phones have some sort of "Ultra power saving" mode that gives a lot of battery life.
I always use the power saving mode, however my experience is that the battery time is almost the same irregardless of battery capacity (comparing arbitrarily över the years)
It's absolutely allowed.
It's not as good as previous versions but I am running stock android and I have wifi power saving and phone (background) power saving modes available. I just checked and the estimate of time until zero percent battery goes from 22 hours to 28 hours with the node that limits backup processes, and that is with 59% on the battery.
There was a power save mode on my old phone that made everything grey screen and stuff that was way better. I think I enabled it for a camping trip once and used like 20% battery in 3 days.
Yeah the more power phones have available the more manufacturers use.
It's why I miss replaceable batteries.
That made me think of the fairly low res picture of the menu screen from Mario Bros on the NES with the caption "this one image takes up more memory than the entirety of the Mario Bros game code.
Good lord...I remember getting a 1GB HDD and thinking "welp, never gonna use that up" then a few years later installing Diablo2 and seeing it was 1.1gb...
My guy, those are opposite things...
Not really. They have massive breakthroughs that increase capacity and charging hugely.
People just seem to expect some world changing development constantly.
Depends on how you define "constant". Battery prices have been falling year over year, no thanks to technological improvements.
If we're referring explicitly to Academia and R&D, then OP is correct. You're main point is that these huge breakthroughs haven't affected the market, but OP isn't arguing that.
You're both talking past each other.
The difference is this is actually shipping to manufacturers.
Solid state batteries are already being produced at scale. It's happening.
Where are you seeing that?
The first news I've heard is Yoshino power selling solid state power banks. here's a video covering them.
That guy did not tear it down or do any testing or validation. This guy did and it was not what it was cracked up to be:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pu8hs6hmyk
There may not be a revolutionary discovery, but we are nearing a tipping point where battery makes more sense for most disconnected power storage than anything else.
The cell phone I had 30 years ago had a battery pack that was about as big as my current cell phone and was 500 mAh. My current cell phone has a little battery tucked away in it that stores 4000 mAh, recharges about as fast, and can be recharged more before it loses a significant amount of its capacity. It also costs about 1% per mAh of the price of that battery from 30 years ago.
Just because you haven't bothered to investigate advances in battery technology doesn't mean significant advances haven't occurred.
feels a bit like fusion power
True, as far as big leaps go there hasn't mean anything since the introduction of lithium based batteries to the market.
Until now. This is it and they have production working. Safer than lithium. Longer lasting, quicker charging, should perform fine in extreme cold, more energy dense, and solid state.
The next big thing is finally here.
I know you're correct, since there are now solid state batteries on the market which outperform liquid-electrolyte LiPo batteries, but just stating "we're at the tipping point" without dropping any link as evidence makes your claim very unconvincing.
That guy on Undecided is a bit of a dunce. He never actually checked or tested in any way that the yoshino psu uses real solid state batteries. He just bought it from Amazon and it's advertised on Amazon as having them.
But they likely aren't solid state batteries in that psu he bought. He even admitted as much in a podcast just last week.
Other people have done teardowns on those yoshino batteries and have apparently found that they are not solid state. They still contain a liquid.
Here. I think he talks about it somewhere around 25 minutes in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aciA1dKz5iE
So we're still in a limbo period with nothing actually on the market.
Correct, but it's on well enough authority that the batteries exist and are in production and that units are in the hands of EV manufacturers for them to play around with. Consider it like the time period when no one has the next game system yet, but everyone knows that all the game developers have the dev kit for the soon to be released system.
I hope you're right, but I'll believe it when I see it.
A giant name like samsung and the auto makers they've teamed up with like Toyota aren't going to bullshit about the batteries being in production. There's no benefit to doing so. It's not like they're trying to raise investment capital.
Samsung is not the "bullshitter". Samsung did not write this article. Samsung didn't claim that these will be in cars or anywhere else anytime soon.
Yes they have. Not from this article, though. Same for Toyota. They announced a 2027(likely) solid state battery EV months ago.
As for "samsung didn't claim this", they put the battery on display at the trade show in Seoul, and it's been reported by tons of outlets. Samsung has very clearly announced it.
No they haven't. Samsung didn't say they have a 600 mile battery. The author did. Which is nonsense for a variety of reasons, which is exactly my point
...likely? Based on what?
No one is trying to claim the battery doesn't exist so I'm not sure what your point is.
They’re coming off a pilot production line and have shipped to vehicle manufacturers to see if they want to incorporate these into upcoming models.
Problem will be the price for the first run of this tech. They’re targeting “ultra premium” vehicles until they can scale and optimize manufacturing.
The market will segment away from the current tech anyway. CATL Sodium-ion with comparatively low densities but also extremely low prices per kWh will likely win the low-end market and the market for stationary solutions. This is just due to the much lower resource costs. The high-end will be up for things like this battery by Samsung (or other comparable pilot products). The current technology will likely be in a weird middle spot.
And those cheaper batteries may not be as compromising as people think. In terms of kwh/kg, the sodium-ion batteries coming on the market now are about where lithium poly batteries were about 4 years ago. It takes a few years before new batteries make their way into EVs, which means EVs being purchased right now have batteries with a similar kwh/kg of the new sodium-ion batteries. Those batteries are around 30% cheaper and don't have the same level of fire hazards as some lithium chemistries.
So if EVs on the market today have adequate range for your use, you'll probably be just fine with a future sodium-ion EV.
There won't be many charging stations able to output that kind of wattage tho
It will still be a dramatic improvement because these packs will be able to hold the max charge that the charger can support for much longer. E.g., a car that can hold 350kW from 0-90 is much better than one that peaks at 350kW for 2 seconds before dropping to 150 or 100kW for 40-90%.
Can you imagine not having the constant traffic noise played into your ears like tinnitus, being able to maybe actually breathe the oxygen nature provides. That’s probably gonna be what it will be like. But still, ev are just a stop gap, more privately owned cars isn’t the solution in my humble opinion, it is a start towards it.
Totally with you, but tire dust is one of the major pollution particles from cars, maybe even the worst AFAIK. That, sadly will not go away but it is still leagues more desireable to have everything on electric than fossil fuel. Can't have perfect stop good enough.
Yep, tire pollution is even worse with EVs due to their weight. But overall it's still much better as you said.
It would help if cars went back to a reasonable size and not the absurdly large monstrosities that dominate the market today.
It's even hard to find an EV sedan. There are like 3 models under $70k. Everyone wants to make SUVs instead.
That's the real kicker. Gets especially hard if you don't want a Tesla.
Many of the conservatives who cite heaviness of EVs as a problem didn't say shit as ICE cars got heavier and they bought F150s to go to Walmart.
Yep, I'm all for it. However, they would be still heavier compared to equivalents ICEs.
There's no reason to think that will last. The kwh/kg of batteries improves by 5-8% per year, and we've been in the higher end of that range the last few years. Meanwhile, EVs are about 30% heavier. It will take a few years of improvement to make up that gap, but there's every reason to expect this trend to continue.
Also, it takes a few years for new batteries to find their way into existing models. 1.08^4 = 1.36, which means improvements in batteries since 2020 could have made up this gap already.
Yes, sure, batteries are evolving and there are solid state batteries on horizon, though probably very expensive initially. There is also a concept of getting energy wirelessly from road, which could further reduce battery sizes. I'm sure the future is bright.
This really only applies to oversized electric trucks and SUVs, due to their low efficiency and associated need for massive batteries, not EVs in general. Mine weighs the same as a comparable sedan.
Unfortunately EVs are mostly comprised of oversized SUVs but not exclusively.
If you're concerned about tire pollution, you can switch any vehicle to a harder rubber compound, at the expense of grip and safety.
Perhaps they compare, but assuming small batteries and consequently small range. Which might still be fine for shopping and shorter trips I guess. And I agree that oversized EVs is all the rage these days
The tire noise EVs make is about the same as an ICE car at about 50 kph (30 mph) so it doesn't make much difference on busy roads. It does make a huge difference in slow traffic.
It's not tire noise that bothers me, it's the folks who seem to think that the rest of us will think they're cool for being able to hear their engine roaring down the road from a quarter mile away.
They'll switch to very loud music unfortunately.
I would rather hear loud music than ear-piercing motor noise.
The traffic noise will stay the same, from tires, honking and some fake engine noise they'll mandate for pedestrian safety.
Do yourself a favor and spend some time in an area without cars. It's amazing what it does to your mental health.
About noise, above 30km/h electric cars are as noisy as gas powered one.
It's better but not the panacea either.
Solution: 30km/h speed limit in cities, which is a good idea anyway for safety reasons.
Yes, it's better for safety and health reason.
Plus 30km/h is in the speed range of bikes, so it become much more accessible to bike around in the city and more people start to do it.
It’s 30mph not kph. City streets should be limited to 20mph anyway.
Building massive production capacity to replace all the cars just locks us in to having cars though
If big oil doesn't buy up the patent and squirrel it away.
I waited 4 years for battery technology to get better before bring an EV last year. The "battery revolution", with all the news being generated weekly for years, is still not here. I don't give a fuck about theoretical battery range - give me the actual battery in a car, THEN it's newsworthy. Now it's all just theoretical, which we consumers can do fuck all about.
And that's the thing. As much as we've gotten used to it over the past hundred years, progress is absolutely not automatic.
If people don't buy the current stuff, it reduces the chance of advancement for that tech. Most things will only get better if people are buying the current versions.
We've had solar power tech for 50 years. Solar initiatives under Carter were actually pretty good. You know who killed it, or I expect we'd have solar on most roofs today.
I recently visited Switzerland, and the amount of rooftop solar there was insane.
(Solar is of course closely linked to battery tech.)
I totally agree with your statement, but in the 4 years I waited, nothing has actually happened with the batteries on EVs (except for a bit faster charging on already insane charging times).
Well, Toyota has promised 2026 for their battery tech and hasn't changed that guidance, so I think there's a decent chance they'll stick to that timeline. I don't know if Samsung is their supplier or if they're competing on the tech, but if it's the latter, I expect we'll see something in the next 2-3 years.
I'm still convinced Toyota is just announcing breakthroughs miracles in battery tech Coming Soon™ because they shit the bed so hard on the first round of EVs. Now they're trying to discourage people from buying EVs now while they play catch-up.
Well, the good news is, nobody is making an actual solid state battery car, so if they don't deliver, I'm not out anything. The current set of EVs aren't good enough to replace our family car (we like road trips, and even 300 miles range is too little), so I'm waiting regardless. I'll be looking for announcements in the next year or two.
Both of our cars are Toyotas though, because they make really good cars. We have a Sienna for our family car and a Prius for my commuter, and I'm probably going to replace that Prius with an EV if I can find a good deal on something with 150 miles range. The Sienna is getting old (nearly 200k miles), but it's reliable, so I'm holding off until I can either get a good deal on a hybrid/ICE, or reasonable EVs are released. If that's Toyota, great, but I'm not buying the first gen of anything regardless.
I've found the current gen of EVs is perfect for road tripping with my family. The battery range is perfectly sized for the bladder sizes of my kids. It works really well if you're road tripping at a casual pace. However I know a lot of people that like to "death march" road trip where they won't stop for 500 miles at a time - so I admit it's definitely not for everyone.
Yeah, I have kids, and we can usually get about 300 miles before someone needs a bathroom break. So usually I refill gas (<5 min) while the kids go to the bathroom, and we usually pack enough food with us (sandwiches and whatnot) that we only need to go to a restaurant once on the trip.
An EV could work if fast chargers were as plentiful as gas stations, but in many of the areas we go (I live in Utah and travel to WA, MT, ID, and CA frequently), they're pretty infrequent. So we'd need to plan stops based on charger availability, not on bladder size, which means an extra recharge or two for the trip. It's getting better, but every time I look at maps, there are maybe one or two chargers in a 50 mile radius, so if it's full or out of service, we'd be screwed.
Now, if gas stations started offering EV charging, I'd probably be looking at them today. Gas stations are perfect because they often have fast food, bathrooms, and snacks, all of which are essential for road trips.
As another anecdote, my coworker just bought a Model 3, and he frequently says he can't reasonably visit places within our state because the charging network sucks. That's a pretty serious concern for us, since we like camping, which means pretty remote trips.
This is the real next step, every other battery hasn't made it to production, but if they're sending out working EV batteries to EV manufacturers and have production line running then it's finally real.
And as soon as Korea starts mass producing long range, quick charge solid state batteries, the factories in China are going to start mass-producing them as well.
Regardless of what it means politically, this is fantastic news, I didn't know they were actually producing them beyond prototype stage into commercial production.
Heellll yeah.
Yeah I was excited by https://www.amazon.com/Yoshino-Solid-State-B4000-SST-Generator/dp/B0CPPKFXP3 and although available a bit niche but it ramping into production where its going to be high volume. Finally a battery tech that has made it to market.
I don't trust it. Off brand looking name. Has the high price, but then their upcharge for a few cheap looking solar panels is like a ridiculous $1400.
thats fine but I found out about it from a guys youtube where he ordered one and put it to the test. the guys channel has mostly been about his construction of a super efficient house with batteries and solar and such so I trust it exists as a product. not saying to anyone to buy it but was just showing they exist and are being sold. its not a wait and see battery technology anymore.
Are you talking about Matt Ferrel from Undecided?
Yeah....he doesn't know a lot about batteries, really. He's also doubled back after having some battery teardown reports shown to him and now says it doesn't seem likely yoshino is using a real solid state battery.
So no. It isn't likely "yoshino" gets to be the first to market with a real solid state battery in their product.
I have no doubts it exists as a product. I have doubts about its battery. I'd like a big transportable battery backup device, but I wouldn't want to spend over $1,000 on such a thing if they battery is bad after 10 years. I can buy a gas generator for $500 and it will work fine for over 20 years without an issue. The battery just makes it much more convenient since there's no worry of running out of gas and it's silent and runs indoors.
So its like the first thing out from this tech and the point of this tech is longer lasting batteries. Well and lighter. Anyway, again, the point is the tech is here.
The tech is here. I don't believe that it's in that psu.
ok. thats fine. im not a shill for that product its only an example. we are agreed the tech is out of the lab and being manufacturered and sold and is no longer a batter vaporware. Its incredible and a rare hopeful spot for nowadays.
Oh yea, I hadn't heard of that, good share.
That's very cool
I bet the Europeans and Americans already work on imposing tariffs.
On Korean products?
Exactly. Our government doesn't hate foreign EVs, they just hate China. That's really it.
I mean it is just economic warfare. China substitutes their EV producers to undercut competing countries. They respond with tarrifs. That is business as usual since global trade exists.
Won't matter much; Chinese EVs are so inexpensively made, especially with subsidies, while exceeding European and American auto safety standards that tariffs for the last five years haven't stopped them expanding outside of Asia.
In addition, EVs are so much cheaper to produce, run and maintain for auto companies that tariffs aren't going to make much of a difference stemming the continued EV manufacturing explosion.
Capacity and range will just keep going up, any tariffs have so far been and will be footnotes in EV story rather than any sort of relevant market mechanism
Chinese EV sounds terrifying. I am sure the specific cars they sent for safety testing were well made and passed just fine, but I wouldn't get into their production run vehicles.
Nah, these are the exact standards US/euro cars are tested by, tested annually from regular production, not specially chosen cars.
Besides, it isn't like American or European companies didn't make production line cars that literally blew up if they rear-ended someone.
So far the manufacturing of exported Chinese EVs is doing very well, and each product is tested upon import anyway to make sure it conforms to the regulations of that country.
Tanking a potential market like this for the Chinese doesn't make any sense right now, at least outside of their country it makes the most corporate and political sense to do what they're doing and exceed European and American auto safety standards.
You should be more concerned about privacy invasion from the smart tech rather than the physical safety of the vehicles.
Oh please! I'd love to see Big Oil shrivel and die just like our societies and very planet have under their influence.
They will just take all their oil billions and buy up battery companies at the last moment.
They can do that with a lot of them, but not all. You can't really sell an oil platform when nobody is buying oil anymore. The "stranded assets" is a huge motivator for fossil industries to prolong the switch to renewables as long as possible. Problem is the governments being complicit. They could have made clear paths from when on no new fossil investments were allowed to create a proper phase out.
How are they going to convert their assets in that scenario? The value of oil will just go down from here on out, eventually it'll reach a point where it starts going back up again because it'll be such a hard to acquire commodity for the few people that want it.
Eventually we'll get to a point where the only people who use oil are rich people who can afford to run vintage cars and presumably pay some kind of carbon offset tax.
the future is in plastics
And even for vintage cars and stuff, I assume we'll see better eco friendly and bio fuels being created that could be made in smaller batches without needing to use conventional oil as the fuel. Starting to see more and more of this on aviation already, and even some old warbirds have done recent tests on these fuels and run really well.
Yeah the US Airforce tested all their planes even the stealth bomber on a SAF that can be made from sequestered carbon, they said it passed all tests and that it would be a great way to be fuel independent, they're especially interested as it seems to look possible to fit carbon capture and processing in a small enough package to fit in an aircraft carrier. Even if manned planes aren't as useful in future conflicts we'll likely see drones that use jet fuel replace them.
I mean they absolutely will when civilization collapses due to climate collapse and accompanying weather events, famine, droughts, and plagues.
https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/07/the-climate-is-changing-so-fast-that-we-havent-seen-how-bad-extreme-weather-could-get/
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-023-39810-w
I take solace in knowing that they can build all the luxury bunkers they want, but they will one day come to realize they are their tombs, protecting them from the world and species they damned, including for any of their muh legacy nepo babies huddled underground with them, for a couple million years.
I'd appreciate if people just like you would stop taking any solace and tolerating this bs. The ONLY reason this shit continues to happen is because too many people do nothing. Then when asked they get defensive and say, "What am I supposed to do?!" followed by "What are you doing?!" Like guys, you're smart enough to recognize the perils of these industries, read journals and papers, and internalize the evidence, and you can't fucking do a quick Google search on activism and even lightly contemplate entering yourself into local politics?
Come now.
I was part of Occupy, and it was mostly the fellow peasants being hurt from this system laughing us off the street. I made phone calls for Bernie's primaries.
I still vote the least non-progressive out of harm reduction, and will vote for Harris, as I would have for Biden's corpse, just as I did voting for his corpse the last cycle, and Clinton before when not many showed up. But I no longer have hope. That's just so I can look myself in the mirror and say I did the right thing in the face of madness.
Good on you if you have hope, rage against the dying of that light. I've seen too much to believe that the nobility of the human spirit will prevail.
I was taught a lesson when I was younger that you cannot compare your trauma to that of another. I also learned that it isn't rage which defines progress, it is determination. Apathy, a loss of hope, quells the spirit and stunts progress. Those not on the Right are especially individualistic. We cater to the spirit of independence, while also celebrating love and community, though always as individuals to individuals. It's not "I" or "Myself" that makes the change. The shift happens when we step up together and change sets in when there is a united, achievable goal.
In near every recent movement the Left has been a part of with the exception of Bernie, there has been nothing that was clearly defined and clearly achievable. Just a bunch of angry people loosely pointing fingers. FeelTheBern DID work and imagine how things may have been different not if Bernie had been elected, but if we with our strength of spirit continued down a united path. Bernie's ENTIRE message was never about getting him elected, it was always about us coming together and being active as one.
I'm sad that so many people seem to have forgotten that.
I hear you about the long arm of history, and I might even agree, but not just our society, our species was put on notice we are risking the habitability of our only shared, sole habitat in the medium term a century ago. Now it's here, it's accelerating, we are feeling amuse bouche of our reverse terraforming project, scientists are finding new runaway effects their conservative estimates didn't account for, and still humanity collectively shrugs because we can't disrupt our global economy short term even to literally have a future for our species. We, the US, are among the leaders in the world in terms of accelerating that destruction.
I likely would have more of an attitude of not for us, for our children if that weren't the case. But physics doesn't care that we are the slow learners and selfish fucks. I hold the shame and guilt in my heart for my son's likely hellish future that I really can do nothing about short of becoming an ecoterrorist which for the record I'm not planning on becoming.
Time is no longer a luxury humanity possesses. We needed to take drastic, draconian, lifestyle altering changes decades ago, and we still aren't willing to entertain such things today, with shattered heat and earliest cat 5 hurricane ever records.
Exactly why "we" is important. People are struggling and it's difficult to consider the world when your own life is falling apart.
Unfortunately I don't have a true solution to this beyond the need for a real leader to step up. Well...there is another solution, though I'd rather not speak of it for fear of ending up on a list. It's also not one I support. Still, I feel strongly that we can find our way.
At the very least I'm not just going to roll over.
You say "do something" and follow or with "protest"?
Concrete is effective at sealing shut bunker doors, and air ventilation systems, as is caulk
Yeah, but humans are not very effective at organising humans to act in their best interests in a coordinated and logical manner. I feel that this will be even more of a challenge post-collapse. Some bunkers may get caulked. Most will get left alone.
Let's hope it's better than most Samsung products
It comes with their version of a calendar installed and it wont charge unless you grant it permissions to access your gps log, at which point it will crash.
Seriously, why are they so absolutely shit at software. It boggles the mind.
Their batteries are usually top notch. If you're hunting around for 18650 cells--which are notoriously bad for fake claims on Amazon and Aliexpress ("80,000mAh!!!!" when the best 18650 cells are closer to 3,500mAh)--a genuine Samsung cell is a safe bet.
Better in what way?
Well my $1800 phone has push notification ads for mobile games I can't disable because Samsung flags the Galaxy Store as a system app so you can't disable notifications. You can see here that the option is greyed out.
They also install shitty games with "security updates" every month or so.
Never seen those before on my Samsung tablet.
It's been really bad recently on my Fold 3, but didn't start happening until about a year after I got the phone.
I think they wait for all the reviews and "1 year updates" from the YouTubers to pull this shit.
They honestly can't make that much off this bullshit on a per-device level. My phone costs more than 2 cars I've owned, and I could just buy a Pixel Fold next upgrade, so it wouldn't take a huge percentage of users jumping ship to mage or more costly than profitable.
If MKBHS, Linus Tech Tips, etc called them out in their reviews of Samsung devices it would stop overnight.
Samsung pays them too much for them to rock the boat.
Dear God yes, why the fuck is my Fold trying to install fucking candy crush and a bunch of other games every time it does a software update?! And recently it has a new system app trying to install games as well, that comes back if dismissed in any other way than opening it to get the offers and then clicking on the never option. And apparently never is like 3-6 months according to Samsung, because it does come back.
I really hope the Pixel Fold 2 is a solid phone, because that is where I plan to migrate to after nothing but Samsung phones since the Note 3, which was has been all downhill since TBH (RIP microSD cards).
I'm so glad that the launcher I use has a "Recently Installed Apps" button at the bottom of the apps list. It makes it so easy to go through and scrub the bullshit they install on my phone.
You can kinda turn them off if you silence it like I did
There's actually a way to kill them, but it's super hidden.
You have to go to the phone notification settings, go into advanced settings, select the option to disable notification categories per app, then go back into notification settings, open the app list, open the three-dot menu and select system apps, then find the Galaxy store, then select categories to disable.
Easy, right?
hmm, so... I had the notifications category set to on. by doing this, I could see the different categories, so I think you have to have it on to select the correct categories instead of switching it off like you said.
HOWEVER, check this bullshit out:
I can't turn important updates off, and there's one they don't even let me see. wtf!! I wish there was another company that did folding phones as good as Samsung 😢
So you want the batteries to not show ads? I don't understand. Do you have any actual relatable issues between the batteries and other products?
How about the time they had to recall their flagship phones because the batteries were exploding and ended up being banned by the FAA?
So they changed our all the batteries, and re-released the phones, only for them to start blowing up again?
Explanation for the problems.
When 2 different manufacturers both have a design catching fire, it's the design that's the problem.
The first was a design issue, the second was a manufacturing issue. Both should have been caught by Samsung's QA.
Use ADB to disable Store and AppCloud (adware/nagware that should be killed with fire). No, not the notifications, the apps themselves.
It's ludicrous that my phone costs more than 2 different cars I've owned and I have to go through this kind of bullshit so they can make another 15 cents on average per user.
so why would you buy an $1800 phone if you can't root it and load some FOSS on it?
Because I don't want to lose my warranty on a phone with a soft plastic foldable screen.
Yeah, denying warranty for rooting is technically illegal, but knowing that doesn't do anything for me.
I swear I read about how some companies have managed to come up with some break through to charge or increase battery capacity every few months, yet these are never make it to market.
Cold fusion is right around the corner!
i thought they're already at "triple cold² fusion++" ;-)
my personal favorite (but not a battery) were two different fake news about fans without any moving parts, one with electricity, conductors and shapes only, the other using ultrasonic somehow, how cool were these lies !!!
https://www.itnews.com.au/news/silent-microchip-fan-has-no-moving-parts-106236
"RSD5 is the culmination of six years of research by Dan Schlitz and Vishal Singhal of Thorrn Micro Technologies"
"Six years of research", such a cool "product" and now that linked thorrn domain is for sale, how bad!! the world will never profit from their super "cool" invention !!!
"today" other bladeless fans (based on ultrasonic freqs) were anounced: https://linustechtips.com/topic/1471374-not-a-big-fan-new-solid-state-cooler-can-blow-air-with-no-moving-parts/ ("Frore is expecting to start shipping units in Q1 of next year." which was news from 2022) but did you hear about that cool product beeing shipped yet? i would have, i'm somehow sure, but somehow i didn't. maybe the "units" they wanted to ship were just something else *lol That article also says: "Frore Systems hasn't announced any actual computers featuring its Airjet solid-state coolers. But the company is already in partnership with the likes of Intel […]" no actual result, but already partners like intel (intel, how does'nt that already fit !!)
The same nonexisting effect (fan without moving parts), abused (at least) twice. (i'll just ignore those "bladeless fans" here that officially just have hidden "propellers") but military says "twice" is already a scheme...
why should it be different for batteries?
if they produce batteries THAT good, they would never sell them but make them available only for rent, to maximise their(!) ROI (and not yours). so i guess it's yafn - yet another fake news. i might still be wrong however, but i also like to be on the safe side of predictions ;-)
a theory: the richies offsprings startups desperately need other lies than their parents and grandparents who already used up nearly all language-allowed possible lies (as well as nonverbal lies, just watch tv for a while to see it in action) to distract people, companies and govs to 'invest' in them instead of i.e. in the future or in the nation, thus new nonexistant technologies is what the richies offspring found best to be their lies about.
Cold fusion certainly isn't.
Yes agreed.
But: Battery capacity, charging and discharging speed, price has dramatically moved in the last 20 years.
So while it’s easy to disregard revolutions, evolution has most definitely occurred. And many of them are fuelled by what gets hailed as a revolution and then, quietly, sneaks into the current production processes and makes it to market.
This one is definitely real and will be in cars (whether it's Samsung or someone else), probably by 2027.
I posted about this a week ago. The battery pack will likely be around 150kWh (Nio has a solid state battery car that will be produced that can do 577 miles on a 150kWh battery). The 9 minute charge is from 8-80% (according to the marketing material I dug up) so it is 432 miles of charge in 9 minutes. Considering fast charge costs like $0.50/kWh currently, I'm guessing most people will not be charging up that entire portion unless they are planning on driving for a long fucking time...after they have already been driving for 9-10 hours.
But that charge rate would have to come from a charger that can output much higher than current ones. The highest output you are likely to find is 350kW which would take 18 minutes to charge that 108kWh. So while this battery can charge that fast, you are not likely to be able to find a charger with that high of output for a few years. Still great to be able to get a couple hundred miles of range in 9 minutes. Solid state batteries supposedly have a quicker ramp up period and can take the full output for a higher percentage of the battery.
There are already some charging stations in Germany offering 400kW. Still 16 minutes though. 800kW is just insane. CCS is currently capped at 500kW, so you would need MCS which is planned for trucks.
Fucking hell, imagine the requirement of a couple of megawatt substation for fast charging, urban power planners must be shitting themselves.
Urban probably isn’t too bad, if it’s a proper city they already have power for the infrastructure of subways, lighting, and large buildings.
Where it’s going to be tough is putting these in the ‘burbs or the large areas of mostly vacant interstate. There’s just no infrastructure for them to build off of, and EV charging infrastructure is already one of the issues holding people back from more widely adopting them.
Yeah, just the random added load equivalent to 80-100 houses per car, any time between 5am and 9pm would be enough to send local suburban grids into a spin, especially in summer evenings when there's peak loading already underway. A lot of infrastructure would need to be beefed up to make it reliable.
We have an EV that charges on 110v current. It’s not fast, but plugged in the previous evening it will be ready to go by morning. Not a huge draw on the grid off household current. Obviously, just like you point out, more EV will increase demand…but charging off 110v overnight isn’t going to be as demanding as a “gas station” for EV that all want fast charge for people that maybe don’t have charging access otherwise.
I imagine there would have to be some sort of organized system to pick charging time slots via the local electricity provider in order to keep the grid stable. EV owners could certainly get an electrical timer or via the EV manufacturer app to set a charging time.
Yeah if you've got home charging it's not a real issue. We use 240v here in Aus so you can pull quite a bit out of domestic outlets before having to get serious and generally overnight charging to top up the day's commute would be fine.
So it wouldn't be a fast charger on every street, and you could always enforce limits by time of use pricing to put a dampener on peak loads.
I just wonder if utility planners might get caught with their pants down on this one. Like, could you say 5 years ago chargers might run to 800kW?
I’d say grid planners everywhere are under serious strain. The demands for air conditioning in public and private spaces are getting higher, the number of household electronics is climbing along with data centers constantly consuming ever more amounts of electricity…now we add EV charging to the mix.
Yeah, I’d say they haven’t been able to keep up.
lol, I am picturing buried thorium salt reactors at charging stations in the boonies.
Many rural areas honestly would not be too bad since power plants are usually out there. Those generally tend to have pretty decent power infrastructure. It might be different in other states though. Here in Washington dams and wind farms tend to be pretty far out of town.
That’s fine if you’re lucky enough to have a power plant nearby, but they aren’t exactly evenly scattered about for the benefit of building EV charging infrastructure.
Replace the gas stations with that stuff and have a charging network distributed around parking areas.
I think in some years it's considered a common requirement. Just compare it to pipelines. Electricity is way more easily transported and still we built tens of thousands of [preferred unit for distance measurement] of tubes on to the landscape.
If you do the math, the common standard plugs simply can't do the charging rates that would be required here. You'd need a whole new plug design on top of all new chargers.
It's also silly and unnecessary. We should focus on getting more chargers out there, not chasing a fast charge time goal. If you plan your route out a bit, 20-30 minute charge times every 2-4 hours are fine for the vast majority of people.
https://wumpus-cave.net/post/2024/03/2024-03-30-ten-minute-ev-charging-wont-happen/index.html
According to this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196 the standard was updated in 2022 to support up to 1500V and 800A. If this can be achieved simultaneously it would be 1.2MW.
Whether it is necessary or realistic is another thing, but seems to be achievable without even changing the plug.
Does fast charging reduce the lifespan of a battery like this? The headline is bothersome because my suspicion is it won't last 20 years if you fast charge all of the time and whatnot. I realize that's not a typical case but it's good to understand the trade-offs.
The chemistry is substantially different, so we'll probably have to wait until scientists run some tests to get a more precise set of parameters that affect degradation. I expect failure modes like dendrites are basically impossible with solid-state, but electrode cracking is still possible. There might even be new and exciting ways they can degrade! Regardless, this is still great news.
Engineering Explained has a good summary: https://youtu.be/w4lvDGtfI9U (Piped link: https://piped.video/watch?v=w4lvDGtfI9U)
You know, with charge times like that I wonder if roadside attractions will become more popular again.
Maybe I should start on the next worlds largest rubber band ball now.
Well most people are not needing to add over 400 miles when they charge up. That might be the case once a year for occasional families but most will be looking to add half that which is not much more time than it takes to fill up with gas. It might cause charging stations to offer more amenities. Or maybe the government could get off its ass and make it okay to put them in at rest stops, there wouldn't be much of a problem at all.
Honestly, we do that. Almost every year we drive for 13-14 hours to visit my parents, which is something like 900 miles. We usually do 300-400 miles then refill gas and grab some fast food. We usually stop twice on this trip, sometimes three times if someone has an emergency. We also do some shorter 600 mile+ trips as well (in-laws and sibling are just over 600 miles away), and frequently drive ~200 miles, so we usually have 1-2 road trips each year.
Current EVs that get something like 200-250 miles per change would require at least four stops, and 30min or so per stop, which would add at least 2 hours to the trip. That turns a one-day drive into a two-day drive, and probably three days if charging stations aren't readily available. For the shorter trips (just over 600 miles), we'd still need to recharge at least twice, which adds more than an hour to the trip.
So I'm absolutely interested in this kind of range. I don't need 600 miles, but 400-500 would be good. Until they're affordable, we're sticking to our ICE family car, though we're planning to exchange our hybrid commuter for an EV.
That's a long day in the car, too much for me. Any road trip over about 350 miles gets me pretty exhausted and sick of being in the car. So I'd be OK with a 300 mile range and stopping overnight at a hotel with a charger nearby for trips like that.
I grew up with it. Almost every year we'd drive 800-900 miles to visit family, and almost always in one day. We've done it in two before, but honestly it's more of a pain to get everything unloaded and get the kids to actually sleep in the hotel that we just drive all the way through. We arrive exhausted, but it's one long day instead of two.
That is the case for some people but cases like that are pretty rare. There is no way I could do a drive like that. Current EVs are fine for the vast majority of people but there is the rare family that makes 900 mile trips once our twice a year. For those instances like yours, I'd suggest renting an ICE one or twice a year if you wanted to switch to an EV for your larger vehicle or get a plug in hybrid.
Definitely swap out that commuter car. A used Bolt is pretty darn cheap. I did some math and replacing our Prius C with one would save $1200/year in gas costs. And then there are oil change costs that you save and a few others.
Yeah, I've been looking at them, and it's something like $13k, which is definitely in the reasonable range of prices, especially since I can probably get $5k for my current car.
However, I'm worried about battery issues. People claim it's fixed, but I'll be parking mine in my garage and there's a lot of flammable stuff in there. So I'm a little hesitant. I don't need to ever fast charge it since I only drive like 200 miles per week (and never more than 100 miles in a day, usually like 50), so trickle charging should be totally fine. If I can confirm that, I might just do the swap. Or maybe I'll get a Leaf, which is in a similar price range used.
Our gas and electricity costs are pretty low ($3.50/gal and $0.12-0.13/kWh), so even at $13k, the Bolt would still need ~10 years to pay back for itself (and that's not counting the opportunity cost of investing that money). I'm still tempted based purely on the convenience factor (never needing to go to a gas station again), but it's not a slam dunk yet. If the car dies, I'll certainly replace the commuter with an EV though, I would just rather avoid the hassle of listing and selling my current car.
From a purely climate perspective, it's probably better for me to replace our family car. We get ~20mpg, and hybrids would get 30-40mpg, and a plug-in would get emissions-free for most of our around-town trips. That car is only used for very short trips (<20 miles) or long trips (>200 miles), with almost nothing in-between. But those cars are super expensive right now, so I'm watching the used market to see if I can score a deal.
I would advise against a Leaf, especially used. Nissan was great at getting a popular, cheap EV out the door but they have completely stagnated since then. The Leaf's big issue is that the battery is air cooled. That's fine if you live in Hawai'i where the temperature is in the 70s year round but places that experience heat will see a severe degradation in range relatively quickly. It's not unheard of fire a 10 year old Leaf to only get maybe a dozen miles of range. There is also the fact that it uses CHAdeMO instead of CCS for fast charge. They have finally started to make adapters but they are $1000 and are not officially supported.
If you are indeed worried about a Bolt battery, you could always park it outside. There is not a catalytic converter for thieves to rip off so being out of a garage is not a big issue in that regard.
I would agree that switching will likely not make a ton of sense for you. Thankfully in my state, they offer a rebate for EVs on top of the federal credit so a used EV for us would pay for itself in about 5 years.
I'm not worried about theft at all. My neighborhood is really boring and my city has one of the lowest crime rates in the area, with most of the crime happening on the other side of the city. It could happen, but I doubt it.
The bigger reason for the garage is climate control. It gets pretty cold in the winter (5-15F is common), and the non-insulated garage generally keeps it above freezing. That should help with the battery, as well as avoids having to scrape the windshield.
Yeah, if we had that, I'd probably jump on it. But there's a bigger chance that my vehicle registration tax will increase to offset the lack of gas tax than a rebate happening.
Another issue is that a lot of our energy comes from coal, so switching to an EV wouldn't be a a dramatic as other areas in terms of carbon footprint. I'm considering getting solar (about a 10-year payback period if I DIY), but I'll need to also replace the roof when I do, so I'm putting that off as well.
Anyway, I want an EV, but as you said, it probably doesn't make sense for me. But I do like the idea of never having to refill my commuter, which I currently need to do almost every week.
If you will EVER need to fast charge then the leaf is going to be more annoying because it has CHADeMO and not CCS
Get the bolt unless you're certain that'll never be a problem even once, it's seriously not worth it anymore
Source: longtime happy leaf owner who hates CHADeMO as it cannot be easily converted to CCS like NACS can
I can't think of a reason I ever would, it's going to charge in my garage 100% of the time, with the only exception being if my company installs charging stations. But they're about the same price used, so maybe I'll just go for the Bolt. I just need to do a bit more research to see if the battery issues happen when doing level 1 charging, since that's what I intend to do in my garage.
Your math checks out.
Charging a 600 mi battery in 9 minutes would require a charging station that can output somewhere north of 1.2 MW.
We need major upgrades to the electrical grid as well as doubling our electricity generation capacity for charging stations and vehicles like that to be common place.
If a product lasts, it will be subscription based
No, if a product exists, it will be subscription based. That seems to be where we're at these days...
The idea of ownership is being destroyed
Only because things are too expensive for plebes to buy outright! Mortgages are basically subscriptions too. Or “layaway” at least.
Thanks to monthly payments for everything, you can have whatever TV you want!
Honestly, if a product last forever I wouldn't mind it on a subscription model. The company needs to make money in order to, at the minimum, continue supporting the product.
Then comes the costs of support staff, R&D for future product developments, etc etc.
That price should not include massive yearly bonuses for the top execs.
It's a battery. You put it in the car, and it powers it. How much support does the manufacturer need to provide that can't be baked into the initial cost?
gestures around Products as a service in general isn't needed, but it's done anyways. Single player games don't need to be always-online and subscription-based. Same with movies. Same with cars. But in the world we live in, everything is becoming X-as-a-service. In this case, it wouldn't surprise me a bit if they purposely built in a chip that would disable or otherwise limit the battery unless the
purchaserclient continued paying the subscription fee.I've been saying electric cars are never going to catch in until they can keep up with gas on affordability and how far you can go. This is how you compete with gas!
Now we're cookin' with gas! er...without gas.
Even if you do find a viable alternative, we need to change how we live and invest heavily in public transit everywhere
All we need are swap stations and cars that can be battery swapped.
Charge speed is also extremely important. People keep waxing on about it only takes 15min to charge, but that's is 3-4x as long as pumping gas.
Imagine if we all switched to electrical with those charge times, gas stations would become clogged almost immediately.
95% of charging would be done at home, since I get tons of energy from the sun. I have a feeling many other people would be doing the same. Highway stations are a different story though.
Non EV owners can't grok how convenient home charging is, and the reality that station charging is a general rarity.
Most people on long-term road trips time their stops with meals anyway. If this became a reality, and charging infrastructure got directly built in to parking spaces at rest stops, then they can probably tolerate a 15 minute wait ti charge while they eat lunch.
We literally can't all switch to electric right now so that's not a problem 😉 but yeah, if I do try to imagine it, I imagine a world where most people charge their cars at home or at work, so the only problem to solve is upping the charging capacity along certain long distance tourist routes. But we can build lots of lovely high speed rail to help decongest those routes 😋
You’re forgetting the role of societal regulation, laws, culture etc.
Electric cars ARE catching on, at their current technology level.
Amazing, now we just need charger infra to be more ubiquitous
That's the main thing holding EVs back in general, in my opinion. That, and the price of EVs. Batteries will get better with time, chargers will get faster. But if there aren't enough fast chargers all over the place like petrol stations, then the adoption of EVs will be too slow for prices to drop significantly until ICE vehicles aren't supposed to be produced anymore.
Also, I hope the electronics industry really gets their shit together in terms of recycling and sustainability.
The weight matters too. EVs are notoriously heavy. You have to haul around the batteries whether they are full or not.
"However, due to their high production costs, these batteries’ initial application will be limited to the “super premium” EV segment."
This is a regular argument against EVs but its a weak argument in the real world application in the USA at least.
The most popular EV by sales in the USA is the Tesla Model Y with a curb weight of about 4200 lbs.
The most popular vehicle in the USA is (and has been for quite awhile) the Ford F150 Pickup which a curb weight of 4400lbs.
Yes, many of those F150 trucks are used in commercial or heavy duty applications legitimately, However, many are not. The F150 outsold the Tesla model Y by more than 50%. Why is the argument of curb weight only leveled against EVs, the recent addition to the roads, and not giant pickup trucks and SUVs that regularly weigh much more?
.
Personally I like small, lightweight cars because they're fun to drive and somewhat efficient. Obviously the f150 doesn't light my fire in that regard, but the model Y isn't exactly a nimble little thing either. Between weight and annoying tech (screens and driver assist mostly), I'm honestly not interested in modern cars at all
"initial" could very well be the key word here. Same goes with any new technology, including the relatively outdated Chevy Bolt design (which was pretty expensive at launch and is now a dime a dozen)
Solid state batteries are more energy dense, meaning that if all you want is 300 miles of range on a charge (perfectly fine with it's faster charging), then you can have less battery for the same range. Now how much lighter I'm not sure, but it's in the right direction!
If this works as advertised then it'll revolutionize more than just cars. This is huge
So long as its not 2,3,4 times the price of current cars. Otherwise put them in busses and trains. Cost is strangly missing, I'm guessing because it is prohibitive.
Exactly. I'm interested if this is in the $30-40k range. It's probably not.
965 km ... so aprox 1000km.
So about 1 megameter.
Wow, 1 megameter for a vehicle weighing 2 megagrams. That's some serious efficiency
There's a good chance you are mistaken. It was not specified which type of mile they are referencing.
The only sensible mile to use would be the Scandinavian mile (10.000m). = 6000km range.
Another possibility is the nautical mile (1852m). = 1.111,2km range.
And there are plenty of other "miles" to choose from.
Like Miles Davis... (1.69m give or take a trumpet)
For the trumpet to affect his height... Did he wear it as a hat?
No. He leans back, and blazes music like a bonfire into the night sky.
Mm!
Let me know when I can buy it.
If you own an EV factory you can:
Unfortunately, I do not
Well, hurry up and pull yourself up by your bootstraps.
Yeah. I've seen too many battery technologies die in a lab. I need to see it to believe it.
These aren't in a lab. They're being manufactured right now.
There's a toxic positivity in battery tech news. So many things only end up being practical in a lab, but the news headlines sensationalizes every single one. Its led people to believe that no advancements are coming. But the truth is that batteries improve 5-8% in kwh/kg per year, and that compounds over time to some real gains.
I mean that particular version of it or any solid state tech because https://www.amazon.com/Yoshino-Solid-State-B4000-SST-Generator/dp/B0CPPKFXP3
"I came to the technology community and was surprised when they started talking about things that aren't in production."
In the meantime we can get a portable solid state power station https://yoshinopower.com/
That’s a pretty sexy looking battery
Can't we get Nokia to make an EV battery instead?
Now we're getting there!
now tell me why it isn't sustainable
Gas-holes will tell you that the rare metals leak poison into dirt.
As if gasoline isnt already doing that.
They aren't. They're doing it right and into the air you all will breath and bake in for the rest of your, now short, life, suckers.
I get the cost, but it should be an option to upgrade any current EV to this new style battery.
It's not needed in today's EVs. Things should be upgradable yes, but it's not necessary to replace current existing lithium batteries with this and doing so would probably do more harm than good. The ones we have already outlast the vehicle's lifespan, and go further than a tank of gas.
We don't even know how to recycle these new types, at least we've made some headway with the current gen packs.
I'm thinking less in terms of lifespan and more in terms of range and charging time.
You shouldn't have to upgrade your entire car to get a 600 mile range and 9 minute charge time if all that's needed is better battery tech.
Two questions if that's the reasoning: how often are you driving 600 let alone 300 miles? How often are you out of range of charging, if at all? Charging at fast chargers already only takes 20 minutes, the same amount it takes to pee and get a drink.
Charging at home makes range not matter. It's not gas, you're just always charged up. You don't want to sit at 100% anyway, because again, it's not gas.
There's some EVs that are integrating the battery into the frame in order to save weight. And it does save weight, but there's no way to replace the battery.
That's a super awful idea, so battery EOL = car EOL.
How viable would something like this be for powering a home? Solar panels+this?
These are gonna be hella expensive for a while. If space is not a concern there's much cheaper batteries out there. You don't really need fast charging capabilities either.
In a home, power density doesn't really matter. If a battery is large and heavy, you still only transport it twice. Once new, once when you replace it.
Not very. There's a different sodium based battery being designed for home storage. Not nearly as energy dense, but will last a very long time, can be left outside the house, and uses cheap components (no lithium or other rare metals).
That's the battery you'll want.
Hell yeah. Let's keep going, boys!
How much is that in loading cable diameter?
Every car show, they put out 'concept cars' that will never see the light of day.
'New batteries' are giving off the same vibe.
First and foremost, this is the technology community. If you wanted to see mature tech that is in production, you're in the wrong place.
Second, battery tech has had steady improvement for decades. The cell phone I had 30 years ago had a battery pack that was about as big as my current cell phone with a capacity of 500 mAh. My current cell phone has a battery tucked away somewhere inside it that has a capacity of 4000 mAh. The price per mAh has also gone down about 99% over that time span. There have also been three major "new battery" types over those 3 decades. The changes have been happening whether on not you bothered to notice it.
All I see in the thumbnail is delicious, forbidden makizushi
Am I the only one who thinks this is complete overkill? 49/52 weeks a year, I never use more than 15% of my battery on any given day. I don't need 600 miles of range, heck, 400 with a nine minute charge would be incredible. Basically drive 4-5 hours then stop for a bathroom break or bite to eat then keep going.
You might be the only one that thinks this is overkill.
Then this doesn't sound like you fit the use case, which is fine of course, but there are many that do.
Delivery drivers that may have to go to far places without consistent EV charging
Winter battery penalty. That 600 miles may be 400ish in extreme cold which many people on the planet live in for at least part of the year.
Heavy loads vehicles. The 600 mile number is used for the basis of comparison to today's passenger sedan EVs. When putting these in heavy trucks, that 600 mile number may be cut down to 300 or even 200 miles, which opened up new avenues for EV heavy goods deliveries.
In short. Its not just about you.
600 miles of range is amazing, plus you have to realize that it doesn't always keep that 600 mile range. Also most people don't charge their battery to a 100%, for longevity they only charge up to 80% for the health of the battery
Then use the same technology to make a 300 mile battery that's half the size and weight.