The U.N. says the Israeli military told it that all of northern Gaza has 24 hours to move south.
nytimes.com
Israel’s military has informed the United Nations that the entire population of northern Gaza should relocate to the southern half of the territory within 24 hours, the U.N. spokesman, Stéphane Dujarric, said late on Thursday night, adding that such a movement — involving over one million people — would lead to “devastating humanitarian consequences.”
“The same order applied to all U.N. staff and those sheltered in U.N. facilities — including schools, health centers and clinics,” Mr. Dujarric said.
The U.N. was told that the marker dividing the north from south was Wadi Gaza, the statement said.
The U.N. Security Council is scheduled to hold an emergency meeting on Friday afternoon in a closed consultation format
CNN
They’re telling 1.1 Million people to move in 24hours in an area more dense than LA or London. In an area without power, fuel, or food.
They know it can't be done and they don't care. The rhetoric coming out of their government is pure genocide talk. One of the military guys got furious that anyone cared about Palestinian civilians.
I hope the US doesn't support this or stay silent. We need to have the balls to stand up to allies when they're in the wrong. The world said "not again" to the holocaust and now regularly looks the other way, and it's time countries stop letting this shit happen.
You know the US won’t. The gov’t is too far up it’s own ass and only sees numbers. Israel is profitable to us, and money is the only thing anyone in power gives a shit about. They don’t care that we’re dealing with terrorists, as long as the terrorists make them money.
Never again! Except for Tibetans, Uyghurs, First Nations in boarding schools/their forced sterilization, the Khmer Rouge, Pakistan/India/Bangladesh, North Korea, Rwanda, all the genocides by the Soviets, Bosnia...
Hundreds of millions of lives ended prematurely...
"Never again" is a phrase I learned in religious school as an American Jew, in the context of the contemporaneous genocides of WWI and WWII, and the genocides that were occurring in the 90s. I understand you're pointing out the hypocrisy of the Israeli government, but don't forget there are a lot of us out here who recognize genocide for what it is.
Never again is what was said after WW1, I'm not pointing out the Jewish hypocrisy, in pointing out the global hypocrisy.
Yes, but we don't have seats at any of the tables where that matters.
I agree with the overall sentiment, but some of these mentions are not accurate and imo devalues the importance of such important accusations (e.g. since when was NK genociding anyone?)
They run camps that are comparable to the Jewish camps during WW2, the only difference being that they're doing it to themselves...
Evidence? Beyond "A guy said that a guy said that.."
Are you seriously questioning the existence of North Korea's concentration camps?
https://www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Prisons-of-North-Korea-English.pdf
https://www.cnn.com/2023/03/23/asia/north-korea-torture-prison-report-intl-hnk-dst/index.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/north-koreas-prisons-are-as-bad-as-nazi-camps-says-judge-who-survived-auschwitz/2017/12/11/7e79beea-ddc4-11e7-b2e9-8c636f076c76_story.html
https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/asa240012011en.pdf
Well, it can't because congress is non functional.
Hurricane evaculations over days are a mess even with power, fuel, and food...
The chaos with the with the evacuations is that everybody's driving in the same direction, and in Palestine, people don't have any vehicles.
1million+ people on foot in a war zone all heading in one direction on war torn infrastructure will be a disaster even without cars.
Don't forget that the shelling has already been going on for awhile now.
And all that assumes you’re actually physically capable of walking to the safe zone
Yes, it's the vehicles that are the problem and not a bunch of panicking people who don't know where to go or what to do.
I'm sure threat of imminent death at the hands of people who think they're baby-killers is probably not affecting them at all.
Come on man, use some critical thinking and context here. He clearly is not saying that cars some kind of an issue here. He was making an idle point about traffic jams in the US with hurricane evacuations and how that doesn't apply in this situation. He's not even making a value judgement on anything here.
They made a direct comparison. They placed blame on how vehicles are the main issue, and how Palestinians dont have them.
Maybe use some critical thinking skills yourself.
Who did? I was responding to someone who brought up that issue, so my response was related to their point and my comment was mostly intended to focused on how the lack of certain resources could negatively impact those who are dependent on those things.
Otoh, the the difference in travel modalities makes a big difference in what problems there are and my comparison to hurricane evacuations obviously lacked in that respect. It's only natural someone would point out that limitation of my comparison.
Or fuel, remember, they don't have water, food or electricity.
They do actually! A journalist was talking about it on Radio-Canada earlier today, he's visited twice since 2017 (having come back a couple of weeks ago) and noted the contrast between fairly recent cars and horse carts using the same streets!
True... probably actually a benefit that they don't have cars as they're less efficient than just walking. But for those who physically aren't able to walk for hours straight (depending on how far they need to go), some alternative mobility is needed.
Yeah so uh… a bunch of people are gonna die in 24h :(
I just want to remind everyone that the only reason you’re not a civilian in gaza right now shitting yourself over the consequences of the actions of violent group who hasn’t held elections since 2006 is just pure birth lottery. Keep that in mind before you say something stupid.
TFW you roll a natural 1 on your background.
Time for a genocide. And no one's going to stop them. Fucking hell.
Some of my friends have suggested that there might not be a Gaza to fight for independence for in a few years. I didn't believe them, but now it definitely looks more possible...
And who's fault is that? Hamas gave Israel the perfect excuse to do so and with good enough PR.
A tiny group within a population of over 2 million.
Honestly what the fuck are comments like this supposed to mean? You think they deserve to be slaughtered, down to the last child, because of what a small extremist group form the same region did? You know half the people in Gaza are under 18?
Do you think they all voted for this? Hamas took control after netanyahu created and funded them to destabilize the Gaza strip, this is a known fact that they've basically admitted. He made sure they were the only governing body that could e, ist so they could excuse anything they wanted to do to the gazans they keep in an open-air prison.
I hope the FBI or whatever the equivalent in your country is keeps pro-genocide people like you on a watch list.
Afghanistan: glares pointedly
To be clear: It is not my intent to be an Al Qaeda or Hamas apologist in any way, shape, or form with that comment. I am simply pointing out the parallels to a situation that had my government chasing some sort of dragon for over twenty fucking years and burned an absurd quantity of resources and blood for pretty much fucking zero long term gain. Like, there wasn’t even any oil. It was all just fury, spite, and nebulous sentiments of revenge and “justice”. I grew up with that. That was a large part of the background of my adolescence. That’s a weird thing. We should acknowledge it as a weird thing. Don’t do that to a generation of your kids, Israel. It’s bad for them.
then you should.know better and warn your allies against such action.
I just want to add that the last time they were even able to hold an election was 17 years ago, so the majority of people there now obviously were not old enough to vote back then.
59% of the "innocent" civilians supports Hamas.
And who's fault is that?
Hamas brain washing, just look at their propaganda.
Israel is responsible for the rise of Hamas. They destroyed secular movements and funded Hamas in the early days.
If you were in a concentration camp with no hope of a life worth living, would you not support the only people fighting back?
Its like constantly tripping someone trying to stand up and then when they get angry you use it as an excuse to beat them.
You're in favor of genocide for people supporting Hamas? Give your head a fucking shake.
No, I'm just saying a two state solution is clearly no longer posible and Israel warned them to leave.
No, you said, "59% of the “innocent” civilians supports Hamas."
The scare quotes around the word innocent imply you think they're not innocent.
Why can't Israel leave?
Because they won?
Israel has fed the growth of Hamas in an effort to tear apart the Palestinian state. Also, Israel has been annexing Palestinian land, and Hamas always follows this with terrorism. There are no good sides in this conflict and nothing that is happening is a surprise. Civies are fucked.
This. Even Israeli Times recognized this as Bibis fault. Instead of marching into Gaza, Israeli military should get rid of their corrupt politicians.
Arafat chose terror in 2000 instead of the offered Palestinian State - this is the path those Palestinian „Leaders“ chose.
Can you tell the diffrence between Hamas and random Palestinian children?
Ever heard of Child soldiers?
You're a terrible person
Israel’s. They literally started all of this with decades of oppression and violence.
.... the people doing the genocide?
Someone needs to stop these vile fucks. Israel is going to kill millions if left unopposed.
It's insane how with all holocaust talk Israeli have no issues applying the same tactics. Cognative dissonance, religion and nationalism just triumphs over logic huh.
Yup. Who gives a fuck about lives when one side’s imaginary friend says the other’s imaginary friend is wrong
Literally people killing each other over fairy tales.
Oh, and because Israel stole their land.
Considering how much money both Israel and Arab worlds have you'd think the land wouldn't be much of an issue, right? Instead of building the Line UAE could literally save every single Palestinian like that.
The thing is they both want this conflict. Israel - some dirt country in the middle of nowhere - is making so much money through this war and Intel industry that they place right there with world economies. Arab world has an enemy that distracts people from literally being slaves to the most oppresive government and religion. Nasty people all around.
Thinking about this region is just so depressing that I'd simply ignore all news if it was practically possible.
Why should the Palestinians have to leave their own land? So what if the UAE has all of that money
*which are technically the same imaginary friend as Islam also is an Abrahamic religion!
Well, they are God's chosen people. It says so right in the book they wrote
This is bone chilling. I haven't read a headline in a while that's struck the fear of God into me like this. They need to be talked out of it. I worry they're about to do something even worse than the Hamas attack, and that's really saying something.
Bro they've already done that with their airstrikes actively engineered to increase, rather than decrease, civilian casualties (I can provide examples if you're curious). Now they're going full Holocaust.
Disgusting. These people had nothing to do with the attack. The actions of a few do not justify the wholesale slaughter of a nation.
Imagine if some proud boys from the US were attacking Canadian civilians, after Canada has been occasionally striking the US and being quite excessive in its use of force.
Then one day Mexico warns Canada that the proud boys might strike this location this week, so Canada pulls its security and guards, the proud boys attack, Canada loudly yells to everyone in the world "OH NO CANADA IS ATTACKING ME DO YOU GUYS SEE THIS SHIT?"
And then Canada proceeds to bomb the absolute fuck out of EVERY city within 10 miles of the border. And then the refugees that are leaving the cities. And then telling them "hey we promise we won't bomb you if you go this route" and then bomb that route. And sends troops into refugee camps in order to decide who is suddenly a proud boy...
The world, as usual when it comes to Israel though, completely loses its minds.
It's like everyone is so afraid of being seen as a nazi, they won't aim even the tiniest criticism toward a government/military. It strikes me as profoundly racist to conflate every Jewish person with the government of Israel, or that somehow Israel represents all jews. Imagine if I suggested Kenya speaks for all black people...
You got it backwards. It's not that they are afraid, it's that every Nazi thing you do becomes unimportant if you support Israel and yell "look, I'm not a Nazi, because I support Israel".
That's a huge, huge stimulus for support. Now if you've done Nazi things, Israel is your salvation. And if you haven't done Nazi things cause you're afraid, just get friendly with Israel.
They are basically selling modern day's indulgences.
And Israel, of course, endorses that via its puppet diasporan organizations and their moves like "anything but Holocaust is not a genocide, and if you don't agree, you're a Nazi" or "you can't be Nazi if you're Jewish" and, of course, "if you don't support Israel, you are not Jewish".
There's no use in analogising such a complex situation, it utterly fails to capture the situation or the context. You're also welcome to theorise whether or not Israel deliberately sought the deaths of 2000 citizens just to cleanse Gaza but that's a massive claim for someone not privy to classified knowledge.
Whether it sought that or not, it was awfully unprepared for the attack itself, but amazingly well prepared for all the followup military, diplomatic and propaganda actions. So I'm starting to think this is not a conspiracy theory.
Israel has conscription and it's the size of New Jersey. It's not hard for them to mobilize to whatever border they need to within hours.
True. Takes about 6 hours in a car from the most southern city (Eilat) to the most northern kibbutz in the north (Metula)
Eh, it's harder than you may think. I know they have a working system in place, but for most countries something of that scale is a problem not at all because of their size.
I'm not talking just about mobilization, rather about them quickly mounting the news on the massacre to justify their impending ground operation, and that operation itself being prepared so fast, and a whole US fleet with an aircraft carrier going to support them.
Just seems like something prepared beforehand, and it's politics and diplomacy, so that wouldn't really be a conspiracy theory, again. Maybe the massacre itself was unexpected, but the operation was planned, and the schedule was simply adjusted a bit because of this event.
Crazy that's a country only needs a little time to mobilise when they're a conscription based country. In the words of the IRA Israel only needs to miss once for Hamas to get an attack off. If all it takes for you to "start believing" something is a mere suggestion with no evidence then I have a bridge to sell you and about 90 conspiracy theories as well.
I'm not talking about mobilization, FFS.
What happened is not "missing once".
Further you just imagined something and heroically defeated the fruit of your imagination, I'll leave you to it.
K insane conspiracy theorist
Just go on.
This doesn't make any damn sense. No one elected the proudboys to run the entire gov. The Palestinians did with Hamas. You're acting like it's a small group, when it's not. A majority of Palestinians elected Hamas to represent them, and they support it.
Now you can have the debate of is Israel the cause and is this response equal or if this was all a setup to start the war, but don't act like Hamas is a minority and the people don't support them.
If I understand correctly, Hamas won their majority of parliamentary seats of Gaza's government despite only having 1/3rd of the population casting votes for them.
Source: this YouTube video by Task & Purpose (just found this channel and this video covering the conflict over the last few days seems remarkably unemotional and mostly unbiased.)
https://youtu.be/lbSFJaFuWU0?si=ITFEngYEbsySW1nm&t=28m43s
Also, that election was 17 years ago...
And a very significant portion of the population are children who wouldn't have voted in said election
Yeah but nobody wants to pick up a book.
In 94 we (royal) almost had peace. In '93 The Oslo accords promised Palestinians self governance in 5 years. Israel under Rabin and Abbas with the PLO had an agreement for Palestine to be run by the PA in the mean time.
I dk if it was more Abbas or Arafat but one of the two along with Rabin even pulled Israeli troops out of occupied Palestine and gave it back as part of the peace agreement, marking the most significant step towards peace we will see.
But then Rabin was assassinated in 95 by a zionist. Israel turns over to Netanyahu. Netanyahu refuses to meet with Arafat.
Oslo II fell apart as the US refused to recognize Hamas (who had popular support), preferring the secular Fatah (PA). Whats the point in holding an election if it wont be recognized anyways? Hamas doesn't enter the '96 race.
At some point Netanyahu starts funding Hamas knowing that he can also pit Hamas against the Fatah. Netanyahu will fund Hamas on multiple occasions throughout the 90's and 2000's.
In '97 the US declares Hamas a terrorist group, ending any chance of an election that satisfies the people.
Hamas wins the '06 election
You forgot to mention that, prior to Rabin's assassination, Netanyahu was part of Likud demonstrations that literally called for Rabin's death for making peace.
Oof. A friend of a friend who was studying in Israel cried when Netanyahu was elected and I feel like I increasingly understand why
Yeah. When I learned about that, I Was pretty shocked. The guy encouraging stochastic terrorism and succeeding in getting a PM murdered was elected PM, himself. Though, it makes his actions and the utter lack of progress towards peace make complete sense; it's willful.
@hassanmckusick @jj4211
And then it gets worse - https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/lbSFJaFuWU0?si=ITFEngYEbsySW1nm&t=28m43s
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Nice to hear a balanced view - thank you!
Not condoning any cruelty, but Hamas had like 70% support in Gaza
Friendly reminder that Israel doesn't really mind bombing "safe routes"
Last 3 times they told people to move they bombed the destination. I'd stay put
Almost like they're concentrating them in some sort of encampment
It's almost like they've created some type of giant penal colony or ghetto. Keeping people imprisoned in large quantities because of their ethnicity, now I see why America supports Israel. They should get them to do shitty jobs for pennies on the dollar while their in there. Remember it's not slavery if it's inside of a prison.
Oh they do. Israel is pretty much dependent on cheap Palestinian labor to keep the country going.
That's going to need a source
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-to-bomb-rafah-crossing-to-egypt-after-telling-gazans-to-flee-through-it/
I think this is what they are referring to.
yup
That's no longer a conjecture, they have already bombed ambulances and convoys trying to flee the north of the city by the route they explicitly told them to use.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-gaza-area-bombed-after-warning-to-move
yeah this
I forgot but it's happening now as I said it would https://lemmy.world/post/6757257
Hey what can I search to find this?
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-gaza-area-bombed-after-warning-to-move
What would be the point of this from a non fucked up standpoint? It's not like that would help them get the fuckers who did this. All I can see is that they want to destroy everything if Palestinians somehow could completely comply. The fact that they can't just means Israel wants to kill a bunch of people who are unable to get out.
Israel warned them though. So it's totally fine if they commit genocide.
Based on social media the last week. Your comment isn't obviously sarcastic any more. It's just sad how horrible people are. And so many.
Obviously anyone who hasn't evacuated is aligned with Hamas and is staying to fight. Obviously anyone running once the ground invasion starts is cowardly Hamas soldiers that are running away from the righteous power of god's chosen. Obviously some of the ones fleeing go away, so carpet bombing the rest of the territory we told Tom to go to is necessary to make sure this doesn't happen again.
Big fucking /s
Israelis are narcissist to disgusting levels. They think that showing some morality when it costs them nothing and being absolutely fascist in other cases is how moral societies behave. They think they are a moral society.
And "the world" supports them, while after the bombings of Gaza which have already took place they should have gotten some internationally approved missile strikes on their cities in addition to Hamas ones.
I mean, they really are confident that for such a massacre they can kill 10 times more people and be in their right. I really hope Hezbollah is preparing for something big so that they didn't get the wrong lesson from all this.
Destroy the houses and then take the land. They are speeding up what they have already done since the beginning.
There was a video called something like "IDF destroys Hamas commando's house"
This building was 12 floors. Nobody can convince me some random-ass Hamas grunt owned all that.
Seems it's OK to kill dozens of families as long as you do it from two miles up. This is just revenge.
By the end of next week I doubt Gaza city will even exist.
Didn't they use that same excuse to take out the Gaza Hospital? People are going to be looking at Israel with a new set of eyes when this is over.
I think that's the point
It would require movement of all people out of hideouts. Meaning hostages would be visible by surveillance. So they end up cleaning home by home, minimize civilian victims and those that do remain are either hiding or they have to move civilians through surveillance. Win win.
I think the bad and good reasons can be true at the same time. Plenty of others list the bad reasons. For the good reasons:
Last time Israel invaded they spent significant time destroying tunnels. It's dangerous work that leaves them exposed, so the less people around the better.
The cynic in me says that Israel will now say that anyone left is a legit target/Hamas supporter, even though it's completely infeasible for most of the population to get out in time.
Then after a huge number of deaths, once they control northern Gasa, they will say (because of continuing Hamas attacks) that it's not safe to return. (But mysteriously is for Israeli settlers)
This only makes the Palestinians less likely to leave ....
It's going to be a bloodbath. Hopefully afterwards it will have been enough for some kind of pro-peace faction to become popular on both sides.... Not holding my breath though.
If this does go bad (worse) I hope that the international community condems both sides, they need to be encouraged (if not forced) to find a peacefull solution.
The far right in Israel, the ones in control, are the most ironic fascists. Bibi has been intent on slaughtering Palestinians for so long, this is all lip service before the mass murder portion of the genocide.
The conspiracy theorist in me still struggles to believe that Hamas (and maybe/probably Iran) wasn't sniffed out by the Mossad or the IDF. These are two groups considered some of the best in the world at what they do and they've been hawking on Hamas for literally longer than most Palestinians have been alive. I absolutely would believe the Israeli far right would martyr a thousand people to get their 2 million.
They never criticize Israel even for its most extreme actions. Right now they seem to be eagerly queueing up to support Israel's siege and attacks on Gaza and send more weapons, no matter how many civilians it kills. So it's hard to be hopeful that international politicians will hold Israel to a measured response.
I guess I need to add: this is not an expression of support for Hamas and their brutal killings. It shouldn't need to be said, but this is the internet.
That's exactly what this is. It's the equivalent of a kid wildly swinging his fists and blaming you if you happen to be in the way.
And western countries should stop supporting Israel blindly.
When you treat an entire nation like livestock and then get surprised they are hating you.
Important note to those unfamiliar with the geography when reading this: the part of the Gaza Strip they want evacuated includes the entirety of Gaza City, the most populated city of the Gaza Strip. They are ordering the migration of 1.1 million people into smaller towns and cities to the south, to empty Gaza City. In 24 hours. This would be disastrous even if it was possible. But there are countless factors making it not possible for people to just pick up and leave, much less in 24 hours, including that the primary hospital of the entire Gaza Strip is in the evacuation area, and is full of injured victims of the bombings the IDF has already undertaken. They have also bombed the caravan on primary roadway people are taking out of the city, according to several news sources
Fwiw the video that Hamas themselves released shows an explosion that is very much not a missile or artillery. It has a large orange flameball, doesn't leave a crater, leaves windows on the vans intact.
This was most likely a propane IED of which Hamas are known to use. Or a tragic accident (trucks propane tank exploding).
I'll try to stick to facts and not mix my opinions in:
Now for my personal speculation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_munitions
I believe that's considered a war crime these days. Someone correct me if that's wrong.
It should be, but it has been used numerous times in the Gaza strip.
Haven't you gotten the memo? Nothing is a war crime when the "good guy" does it.
you can't call something a crime if you have no capacity to enforce it.
it's just words otherwise
IDF rules of engagement prohibit the use of WP for non smoke purposes. They have court martialed soldiers in the past for intentionally using WP in that manner.
So yes, this is a crime. It also means that it's unlikely to happen at a large scale. I would be surprised if it doesn't happen somewhat and there will for sure be accusations.
The advanced munitions are almost certainly not white phosphorus. Israel already has M258A1 munitions and has had them for a very long time.
Far more likely they are bunker busters intended to destroy underground facilities constructed from reinforced concrete.
In Gaza? What?
That's targeting the people inside the tunnel, not the tunnel itself. Since people are probably supposed to return to these areas eventually, I guess Israel would not consider it sufficient to clear the tunnels temporarily. They probably want to destroy them permanently.
With the city above the tunnels being collateral damage...
When the surviving civilian citizens return, they won't have anything to return to.
That's what worries me too. They are destroying innocent civilian homes.
What makes them think the civilians can relocate within 24 hours but Hamas fighters can't?
If we're going with what the commenter above laid out, then even if Hamas fighters evacuate, their tunnels presumably get collapsed.
Also, I think that might actually be why they gave such a tight deadline. If there isn't enough time for everyone to get out, will Hamas manage to escape, that sort of thing.
God I hate all of this.
I'd guess Hamas would be better organized to escape at short notice than the civilian population. And they seem like the kinds of guys who would prioritize themselves.
I don't think the expectation is that 100% of all civilians will be able to relocate. But at least 600k have already managed to (saw that number on the news and can't find a reference any more...oh well).
I doubt Hamas will manage to relocate large amounts of their ordnance in that timeframe, certainly not with the civilian traffic. At least, not without exposing themselves as a potential target.
So they have the option of moving personnel and mild amounts of equipment, but will need to decide how much of a stand they want to make.
I agree with all of this. The only thing I’d add is that there’s a high possibility of a ground incursion to ensure the destruction of the tunnels.
Given Hamas has no real relevant air defense, they’re just going to use bunker buster type munitions to collapse the tunnels (and the buildings that have entry points). At that point, they can send in ground units to finish. Hamas also has no ground-fighting capability versus armor or artillery, and will be relegated to house-to-house against an enemy that can just call in an artillery or air strike. Hamas also has no path of resupply. It’s pretty much a foregone conclusion at this point.
If they’re playing it smart, Israel wil let the ICRC and other aid groups in as soon as they’ve cleared an area and it’s safe for NGOs to conduct aid.
In terms of long term strategy, Israel will need to do more than simply allow NGOs in to conduct aid. Any power vacuum can be dangerous, and giving direct aid will help minimize the chances that a more violent group than Hamas will sieze the opportunity.
After seeing the video of the high yield munitions last night it also looks like they are also showing our munitions for other countries to see.
Oh I don't like this, I really, really don't like this. This is giving terrifying vibes
I'm afraid there's gonna be a genocide in Gaza
Merely more genocide
Yes, don't let people forget that this has been an on going genocide in Gaza and this is just Benjamin "needs a tiny moustache" Netanyahu "starting up the ovens" if you wanna get dark with it.
Maybe en masse ethnic cleansing would be a better term here than genocide. The point is, this is going to be an escalation of what was already not pretty.
Aren't those the same thing?
They are going to try and push them into Egypt and take it all.
Netanyahoo is a nationalist fuck, so that's probably what his plan was if it's true he and his military intelligence ignored the planned attack.
Serious question: If the whole point of Israel is to have a country for Jewish people, doesn't that make it a nationalist state by definition?
Zionism is by definition a nationalist ideology, so yes.
And this is where I never agreed with my Jewish inlaws. You aren't allowed to be critical of their ideology because to criticize the state is to criticize Jewish people. A lot of them feel this way.
I would argue the disingenuous ones use the historical events of the Holocaust to allow them carte blanche on their policies since then.
Then again, we aren't allowed to have an adult conversation around that IMHO. Yes there's a lot of complexity there and yes I am oversimplifying things.
That's sad, my relatives from the Jewish side are more adequate. Not sure that's the case now, though.
My Jewish inlaws are very liberal but at the same time I don't think traditional Anglo-Saxons fully understand how tightly embedded their religion is to their identity even if they're not religious. Same can be said of Muslims. That's where the complexity comes in. You're starting a conversation where bringing up aspects of religion and faith are a core aspect of their identity and their country's identity.
Well, my relatives are definitely religious, even if there's nothing "ultra" about them (except for ultracool and ultrasmart maybe, haha). Since being Jewish is a religious thing more than ethnic one, it's obviously very hard to separate these (well, the state of Israel itself was such an attempt at creating a stable secular-Jewish identity).
And what's happening now is not about religion anyway, it's about lots of genocidal actions, which makes people emotional.
Amen. I wish I had an answer. I just know what's going on now is wrong.
Yes they explicitly want an ethnostate.
That makes it a Theocracy.
It makes it an ethnostate, but because of Israeli policies it goes all the way to Apartheid.
They really can't, though. They'd have to give up their cheap, oppressed labor force. Unless they've finally decided to do that, which would be a real change in their position. They're just going to keep squeezing.
They'd still have the West Bank
I suppose so.
If Israel wanted Gaza they would have taken it years ago or never left in the first place.
I wish there was a way for normal Israelis to get the same treatment as Gazans so that they have finally seen what is the real root cause of the problem.
The media is extremely opionated and show predominantly the human side of the Israelis and there are almost no stories about the horror in Gaza. That's not exactly independent media.
They said they'd "never forget." Didn't seem to take very long. Within what, 2 maybe 3 generations?
When I read things like this I always wonder, which media are you consuming? How can anyone who spends even the absolute minimum of time following the news be unaware of the situation in Gaza?
I do consume English media and for example aljazeera. But looking at German media you see that they omitted most of the cruel things Israel did in the last decades. It's all Hamas is so bad (it is) and Israel is going to retaliate now.
I think SDZ had plenty of articles on Gaza and West Bank? That's a major newspaper
Millions of Americans get their news from social media.
So uh... When is the U.S. and Europe going to withdraw support for Israel? I mean, genocide doesn't seem very in vogue nowadays, you know...
@Caligvla
It kind of is though?
In the last 3 years I've counted about 6 different conflicts that look like genocides or incipient genocide attempts to me (based on Raphael Lemkin's original definition of the term).
There also is the sentiment of killing refugees at the borders or let them drown. That seems to be getting more and more popular in Europe
And the US!
Wait for China to get there first. China doesn't actually give a shit about these people, but if they choose the moment well they'll make the US look like the baddies, and then the Europe/USA will be stuck: withdraw and look like a fool on the world stage or stay put and support genocide.
As if they aren’t already… our gov’t has been supporting Israel while they terrorize Palestine for decades.
They will.
Soon.
Just like they stopped selling weapons to Saudi Arabia when they were found to be blowing up buses full of civilians in Yemen.
I mean, it would be hypocrisy otherwise.
Right?
RIGHT???!!
where the fuck should they go
To make one of the most densely populated areas in the world even more densely populated.
It speeds up the genocide. Anybody who didn't instantly realize Israel would do a genocide over this has an overly rosy outlook on Israel's position and ambitions in the region. They want to get rid of all the Palestinians (or bring them down to a nice, manageable enslaved population) and fully take over Gaza & WB. They don't want a 2-state solution, they want a 1-state solution, with as few non-Israelies as possible.
The country that spawned as a direct result of the Holocaust is engaged in a genocide of their own. Humans suck.
And the pendulum of insanity swings to the other side. They almost deserve each other.
it's a toxic relationship. with civilians in the middle
Yeahhhhh... This is fucked up. Really fucked up. I'm now worried that they'll genocide or even nuke the area.
They won't nuke it. The reason for this conflict is, at it's core, that Israel wants that land for their people. They don't want it uninhabitable.
They could use neutron radiation, wears off pretty quickly, leaves the infrastructure
Absolute madness.
Yikes.
Soo, trail of tears in Gaza?
If anyone else getting worried about WW3?
America is going to be split in 2 conflicts. Now is the perfect time for China, North Korea, and any other enemies to make advances on territory they want.
Where are the NGOs with boats in order to bring them to Europe?
Most likely blockaded by the Israeli Navy. Gaza is being isolated and besieged right now, that includes the coast. And yes, I notice the racist dog whistle you're throwing. But this is not the place to bring this kind of passive-aggresive arguments.
Israel has to defeat Hamas decisively - there is no alternative.
And quit shitting only on Israel for the current situation of Gaza and Westbank. Arafat walked away from a Palestinian state in 2000 and chose terror instead. The continued terror attacks CREATED the awful living conditions in Gaza.
Looks like they don't want to give Hamas time to move their weapons. Whoever came up with this method should be celebrated.
It will force Hamas to give up on hunkering down with their human shields. This counters that, and gives the human shields a chance to escape from the death cult.
"gives the human shields a chance to escape from the death cult" is a WILD way to describe how millions of civilians suddenly have less than 24 hours to move south (where? Who cares?) lest they get absolutely bombed to fuck.
The alternative clearly wasn't working. Any time they telegraphed a bombing, Hamas would force them to stay in the building to die so useful idiots would keep criticizing Israel for the death toll.
Now there's no excuse.
A very slim chance. 24 hours is very short notice, and the circumstances make it very difficult to relocate so many people.
It defeats the purpose if you give Hamas time to organize. Getting rid of Hamas ASAP is the surest way to minimize civilian casualties.
The surest way to minimize civilian casualties is to not drop any bombs.
The incursion has been withdrawn, the threat has been contained as much as it can be. Any bombing now is pure retaliation. Any disablement of Hamas strength won by this will be only temporary and will be restored in a few years with more anger, all at the cost of civilian lives.
If Israel truly only cares about protecting Israeli lives, they'd establish a line, start rebuilding the fence with better surveillance and start negotiating for the release of the hostages.
It makes some sense from a military perspective to destroy certain enemy positions. Centres for command and communication. Missile launch sites, missile workshops, storage facilities.
Yes, Hamas is probably already very good in adapting to strikes on these, and the infrastructure will be rebuilt in a few years tops. But if that means less missiles fly into Israel for a few years, it could make sense militarily.
It is a dilemma this infrastructure is interwoven into a civilian, urban area. Whatever you do, someone will have good arguments to blame you.
Of course, the surest way to avoid [Palestinian] civilian casualties is to not drop any bombs. But since that also means Hamas will have it easier to make and send new missiles, or plan and launch new border raids, not dropping bombs does not maximize [Israeli] civilian safety.
I'm aware this conflict is way more dirty than it may sound here.
Tunnels. Hamas will be fine. The ground invasion is going to be insane.
Ground invasion would be a meat grinder. Israel would rather bomb it into ashes before they fight house to house in Gaza.
The bombings the past few days were targeting tunnels. The penetrating explosions can be identified with tall, narrow plumes of dirt.
Is tunnel another euphemism for Palestinian child?