Hell freezes over, MS Paint adds support for layers and PNG transparency
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Better hold on to your pants, Photoshop. Here's the new contender!
As GIMP cries in the corner.
GIMP 3.0 stomps door with sexy moustache
As it should, I've tried twice to use GIMP, always gone back to Photoshop.
For how relatively well known it is (it's probably like the next most well known piece of FOSS after Linux and Blender) I can't believe how bad a piece of software GIMP is.
I hope you mean the UX. I think attacking it's functionality would be unfair. It does everything good and right .... technically.
If the UX is objectively bad or "just" subjectively might be hard to find out. I would assume if there are objective UX mistakes, some contributor might have been able to deal with that by now. But of course it doesn't change anything if a majority doesn't like it for subjectice reasons. It's part of UX design to deal with subjective aspects.
Not having adjustment layers is a pretty big deal
Or you know, being able to rearrange layers.
That one time I had to use GIMP, I found that simply dragging worked fine.
Or color spasecs other than sRGB (8 bits/channel). I've a camera that takes 10 bits/channel photos, a monitor that displays 10 bits/channel, etc. But GIMP will just distort the colors because they hard-coded the color space! Can't edit for print either, no CMYK. GIMP is an image editor for the noughties, not the 2020s.
Then again, we're talking about MS Paint here. If Paint fills your needs, GIMP will be fine.
Not just 10bit. The Linux version still makes 8bit images more purple after saving.
Disagree. Paint's function is to be the Notepad of images, something not very powerful but quick and dead simple.
GIMP is needlessly hard to use.
Yes, Krita is by far a better editor.
Good news for you, if they ever get around to releasing gimp 3
as a doofus gimp user, what's an adjustment layer?
Not a professional either, but I was also curious and learned:
It's a layer of which the properties/filters apply to all layers below. So you can basically try around and manipulate the visible image without having to combine the layers first.
It's a way to for apply effects in a non-destructive way
I've been waiting for years for "non-destructive edition" (AKA smart objects). It's a fundamental feature that I use (almost?) always as a first step. IMHO a lof of professional work is not practical without it.
They had it on the roadmap (see 2020 archive) for years marked as "No[t started]". The current roadmap looks more promising with "link layers" marked as WIP and saying it could be available on GIMP 3.0.2.
ive been stuck with gimp and now ive been stockholm syndromed into liking it
I use Gimp a lot.
It does its job very well, but that job is not to be an alternative to photoshop.
I used GIMP before Photoshop and I still massively prefer GIMP.
I really think its a case of what you got used to first.
Then all the defenders go "But it's free and open-source!" and you can tell they are just paying lipservice.
Paint is not designed to be GIMP/Photoshop alternative. It is just a simple drawing program. Although it is great that they have finally added these long-awaited features, as I may finally move from paint.net, which is also great but it has one huge drawback - it is not a single window, which is a hassle.
been using photopea for years, highly recommended for quick projects!
Screw you Microsoft, I switched to Paint.net forever ago and I'll be long dead in the cold, cold grave before I recognize Missourah, I mean switch back to Paint.
https://getpaint.net/
Some other random company got the url "paint.net", so confusingly you need https://getpaint.net/ to download the product paint.net
For those unfamiliar, it's a free art program that's... idk 80% of what photoshop is? But you can install community-made plugins to add features (shoutout to Grim Color Reaper).
Also on their download page, you want this one:
If you do the microsoft link, you'll have to pay microsoft. For a free product. That microsoft doesn't own. Dafuq.The paid version from the microsoft store helps to support the product; however I suspect the devs will get more bang-per-buck if you DL the free version and make a direct donation at https://getpaint.net/donate.html
The developer of paint.net sells it on the Microsoft store to support the product. Not any different than buying an app through the App Store or Google play store.
It’s created by a Microsoft Engineer, not super surprising they leverage Microsoft tools to get paid.
TIL. Thanks for the info - I'll update my post.
You can also use winget to install it, if you're into package managers
That way you can still get semi-automatic updates
https://www.photopea.com/ !!!!!
The single most historically aware yet still funny to the unaware joke that the Simpsons ever put out.
Actually a truly useful update in a sea of bloatware crap.
Win11 exclusive? Welp, guess I'll never use it, then.
I've used Vista "exclusive" programs on XP back in those days so I'm kinda curious how exclusive it really is if I could get the installer/files for it.
Shouldn't be too hard, I expect it to be a single executable stored in
C:\Windows\System32, much like the current mspaint.exe. Copy it over, run, have funWouldn’t surprise me if they lock it to the windows store. I hope I’m wrong!
Windows 11 is pretty awesome though
That's where you lost credibility.
Windows 7 was their last non-tracking OS.
1 minute during setup is not exactly a sacrifice
It doesn't stop all tracking, a lot of it still happens in the background, only "without identification". If you thought otherwise, I have this pristine Eiffel Tower for sale.
I'm not at all concerned about them collecting random useless data that will happen their own effectiveness
Imagine thinking in 2023 that there's still such a thing as 'useless data'
What's the useful part
It's not 1 minute, you have to be technically savvy and run scripts from GitHub
No it's just a title list that's presented to you on the first time startup wizard
What a sweet summer child.
Oh Jesus her we go
It shows where Microsoft's mind is at. And it won't stop here.
God forbid they make money on a product they have given away
Given away? Windows is a paid product. And there are other (free!) operating systems that are not driven by profit.
I've never paid for it. Most Windows 11 users have not paid for it. You can buy a license but they also gave it away to effectively everyone and anyone who wants to can run it without buying it so long as you don't mind the "activate more" watermark and less appearance options
...having a demo version of windows does not count as "having it".
It's a paid product. Windows Home costs 139$. And if you bought a laptop or pre-built PC with windows on it, you have already paid for the license as part of the price. And since most people buy pre-built PCs, or laptops, most people thus do pay for the windows license.
So people having the ability to use it and cover week their needs without having to pay money to Microsoft for Windows 11 then that means Microsoft needs to recoup those costs somehow. I know you want to move those goal post but the reality is still what it is.
I feel like you didn't read my reply
In addition, the paid versions still track you
They gather some kind of data, they aren't tracking a specific person
you're either naive or you're working for microsoft.
Good one
most users (outside of a few countries) have paid for windows. via oem or volume channels, as that's where the vast majority of users source their windows from. oem pc sales or volume licenses. whether the original was 7, 8, 10 or 11. at the end of the day, a legit activated license for windows 11 is, or was born from, a paid license.
More than likely they didn't buy a Windows 11 license. It's far more likely they bought a Windows 10, 8 or whatever the hell license from previous versions. Only a small percentage will have bought 11
They make their real money on Azure iirc. And they've recently had a security leak of about 38 TB of data. Nice.
It's still missing a handful of features from Windows10, which might keep some people from upgrading
Yeah that and on my custom built pc that runs awesomely windows 11 poo poos some of my hardware and refuses to take up residence all together.
I'm running Windows 11 on Chromebooks without issue.
...
If I can rerun Windows 11 on a machine without actual Windows support I'm sure your issue is not going to be on the fault of Microsoft
Any operating system can run on anything with an x86 CPU. That's not what's insane, it's the fact that it's gonna be unbearably slow
It's not slow though, it's snappy and fast
I'll bite, what features are missing
Ungrouped task bar buttons, I like seeing what's running on my task bar at a glance. And I don't like having it shrunk down to just an icon either.
You can ungroup them. it's under personalization > taskbar
Ah, last I heard, it was in the Insider Channel previews. Guess it's live now.
i just did an install of 11 here on a test machine. specifically went looking for that option. didn't see it.
https://www.androidauthority.com/ungroup-icons-taskbar-windows-11-3149488/#2
Windows 11 is a much better experience for developers than Windows 10. I see a lot of people who just hate on it for no real reason other than it's different.
I'm a dev and I hate Win11. I could list dozens of reasons why, but one that pisses me off daily is that they removed keyboard shortcuts from task manager for no goddamn reason. Alt+E is the shortcut to end process on every other Windows OS except Win11 because it was made with malicious incompetence.
Eh, I don't hate Windows (unlike a lot in the Fediverse), but I wouldn't say Win11 is awesome. It probably just works. From what I see it's just a mildly-improved 10, which is nice, but missing a few things (no grouped task bar button option in my case), which is why I'm holding out for now.
Those are great features and two of the biggest reasons I never bother with Paint. But locking them to Windows 11 and not putting them out on Windows 10 is some Grade A bullshit.
It sure isn't enough to get me to bother installing 11.
I get why they do it though - any change to win10 needs testing and so on and might not be welcomed by the user base. You can always download a free (as in freedom) image editor, some are even on the Microsoft Store. Be glad they did not backport all the bad sides of win11...
They had no problem turning windows 10 into mock windows 11 despite what the userbase may think. I don't think adding QOL updates to Paint is going to be met with furor.
Why would they port new features back to a legacy OS, there is no reason…
Because everyone still uses it.
I'm a hobbyist digital artist and have had to do a handful of graphic design projects for my mundane, non-art-in-anyway job.
As our computers are locked down Windows PCs, I've had to manage with MSPaint. It's always taken me double the time as on any other program or app, and I have been wishing it had layers for years.
Since this update is Windows 11 only, I'll have to for my company to upgrade, so I can look forward to layers in maybe 5 years.
Take a look at PhotoPea then. Needs nothing more than a browser. Runs fine in Edge and can be installed as PWA. That should work fine even on a locked down machine.
In case your browser isn't completely locked down: there's also image editors that run as web apps like photopea.
I recommend Krita, it's free and open source, and very good at making digital art of any kind.
The commenter you replied to literally wrote the computers are locked down, ie no way to install any new software.
https://portableapps.com/apps/graphics_pictures/krita-portable
There's a portable version that might work.
Locked down windows computers usually have app locker which would prevent executables.
I've never experienced this, I've only experienced that you cannot do anything you need an admin for, maybe the control panel and settings app were removed from sight.
Then you've never worked in a high security environment.
Try Paint.net. Layers, transparency, filters and even plugins. It's free to download from their website. Install from Windows Store does have cost as a way to donate.
Idk why you got downvote but paint.net is where its at.
Because OP said his PC is locked down.
There's a portable version I'm pretty sure.
When a computer is locked down by an employer it doesn't just mean you can't install software, it means that you CANNOT RUN software that isn't approved.
I've found that level of locked down to be rare, usually portable apps still work. That being said running portable apps is still risky since it's likely against company policy and could be logged by IT.
Paint.net is nice because it has plugin support.
It'd probably bore you to do things the easy way anyway. Accept happiness.
This is what I'll be telling myself as I rock and cry myself to sleep at night.
Are you able to use WSL under Windows? Combined with something that can display X11 graphics (such as MobaXterm) you could pretty much use whatever Linux-based software from within the windows environment, including stuff like GIMP which does transparency and layers etc just fine
There are builds of GIMP for Windows.
LoL. You're right. I keep forgetting that for some reason
Excellent! Now I can draw things on the wrong layer in yet another program
Have you tried using descriptive layer names like layer 1, later 2, later 3?
Layer 1, Later 2, Lazer 3.
FTFY
Or just use only one layer.
Great. Now my customers are going to send me even worse art.
At least with layers support you can now extract the individual parts of the image.
What used to drive me nuts is when they send me over everything in one image and I couldn't separate the various components out.
Their clients will still manage to send them a 6MB bitmap somehow
My clients send me fuggin docx files with screenshots pasted in it...
Screenshot.doc /me cries
Right click, rename, .doc to .zip. Extract and enjoy.
Wait I gotta try this!
I know this, but it's still stupid to have to do that step just to access a screenshot.
I don't think your average paint user knows what a layer is.
meanwhile, wordpad.. probably used by more people over the age of seven than paint is, getting axed.
microsoft has office subs to sell, but they do not have a photoshop or gimp or even a paint.net alternative to sell.
I've literally never met anybody that used Wordpad, whereas I know a lot of tech normies that'll use MS Paint for quick memes and things
I used it back in my Windows days. Out of the box, I think it's the only way to do rich text on Windows. Also (used to be anyway) one of the less resource intensive options.
You know, for when you've got Napster, Winamp (with visualisation), ICQ, and MSN all up and barely running. You don't want to have to run, like, WordPerfect at the same time! Your MP3s will start skipping :p
They can cut WordPad, if they kill Notepad then IDK what to say...
Notepad++ FTW!
Fellow notepad.exe aficionado here as well
I've been using Notepad++ for a good while now and it's proven to be a great alternative to MS WordPad.
They created WordPad because of antitrust issues and never changed it. Try opening a Word document created by a recent version, it's pretty useless today.
Notepad rules though, it even got UTF8 support recently-ish! /s
I think they're just pushing people to use OneNote (which is free).
Free with lots of features stripped out
Honestly not that bad if I want to use it for notetaking. But not as full-featured.
Yea that's totally fair. I'm just bitter cuz it makes running my D&D sessions harder lol
As someone who enjoys doodling in Paint, this is great
What did you think of the changes between Paint XP and modern versions? I used to adore Paint XP, but brush smoothing (though toggleable) and a clunky interface really spoiled the newer versions for me, and I don't enjoy using them as much. I think I just became so used to the primitive way of drawing well in the old versions that it sort of became it's own art form. Now they there are more advanced tools and so many required extra clicks, it feels like baggage. In the words of Karl Havoc, "THERE'S TOO MUCH FUCKIN' SHIT ON ME!"
Honestly, I never used Paint XP. I've only used the modern version.
Huh.... I thought they discontinued this program.
Who told you that? MS Paint is basically a critical windows utility.
If you remove mspaint.exe then Windows will refuse to boot. It's true, I knew a guy!
Jokes aside you can boot Windows without Windows at all. By that I mean you can boot Windows NT without Win32.
They did. I guess the community outcry was so loud even Microsoft had to heed it and reverse course.
They discontinued Paint 3D
I thought so too. I remember looking for alternatives for when it would be removed completely.
Paint.NET has been my simple go to for over a decade. I've never got on with Gimp or Photoshop. Paint.NET is more like Paintshop Pro used to be.
I honestly didn't realize I had been installing it... I went to boot paint.net and was surprised I couldn't find it on my work computer... that's how critical it is... or how often I don't change personal hardware
I read that WordPad also was being discontinued, in the same article stating the same about MS Paint iirc
No. Wordpad is the one being discontinued. Paint is one of several programs that can now be uninstalled from Windows by end users without any special tricks.
I really do like it for something that I want to just add quick/small edits to, or something that can be slapped together quickly. But I do hope this isn't the start of a trend to bloat mspaint and aim to compete against more robust image editors.
The pessimist in me fears they're going to, and start slapping on AI data harvesting measures that they're integrating into Windows, like for training their own AI art generators. But this addition, in a bubble, is a welcome change.
Very cool.
I like Paint for its simplicity, and since I don't need all the extra bells and whistles most of the time, I've never bothered with learning how to use Photoshop or GIMP.
I've been using Paint.net for the last few years, but I'll try the new Paint features as well and compare them to see which one I find better.
Yeah, I'm using paint.net for most of my editing (photopea for rest) but I would never have made the switch from just paint if it wasn't for layers and transparency. Those are a big deal.
I'll stick to good ol' https://jspaint.app/
Works on Linux too.
https://www.photopea.com/
Actual Photoshop in your browser
Also works great on Linux :) And free.
Yes jspaint.app is perfect! Highly recommended
I make all my memes with Paint(.)NET
https://www.getpaint.net/
What kind of person is an MS Paint power user. I just use it to paste screenshots into if I'm not intending fine editing, otherwise it might as well not exist as a program.
The only person who seriously uses MS Paint for artwork is that one guy who recreated the Mona Lisa out of hundreds of pieces of variously burnt toast. Real, usable art tools would destroy the purpose and make that guy sad.
Really, if they kept this kind of momentum up for the next 20 years, it might put it on par with Fire Alpaca. It's an interesting move, they're just so incredibly late to the game that even other free programs are still leagues better than they are and no one will ever take them seriously again.
I use Paint almost daily.
Especially when I can’t be arsed opening Steam/Aseprite. Paint is a pixel art work horse.
I forgot about people who do pixel art, and I'm terrible. People like you are invaluable to the gaming industry and the ornate ones are their own skillset I'm kind of always awed by
Reading about other peoples workflows is always really cool. Thanks for re-contextualizing a tool :)
Some older folks that aren't as tech savvy have made some impressive pieces with it if memory serves. There's also those that use it unironically for its constraints to produce pieces with a classic MS Paint style produced from those limitations. In a way this update kind of flies in the face of that a little, maybe, but eh.
Transparency and layers is hardly a power user feature. Any common person wanting to make a meme worth half a chuckle will need both of those features. MS paint always starts up super fast compared to PS or GIMP so I'm looking forward to these features for fast meme creation.
I'd consider myself a paint power user. My job (QA) gives us a NUC and wants us to edit screenshots and videos on said NUC. It's not going to be a fun time with Photoshop, online tools are expressly forbidden, and alternative software needs manual approval by GIS.
Washington State Department Of Transit's twitter feed is pretty awesome because of it
https://twitter.com/wsdot_traffic/status/746373350864232448
and
https://twitter.com/wsdot_traffic/status/1398301020606787586
Glorious. This alone has swayed me. Whoever runs this account, I'm glad they haven't been yelled at by some soulless office robot
The Big Lez Show graphics are drawn entirely in MS Paint. Every. Frame.
check it out
So many artists started with paint. I am really glad it is adding some features that are significant improvements that will help today's young artists even more.
I'm talking about kids, like an age before you're likely to become aware of other free tools... Wait. Fuck, do kids even use windows computers anymore or is the closest a chromebook?
Your instinct is accurate. The younger generation doesn't use Windows computers. They're happy with just their phones, Chromebooks, and Steam Decks. They even play games on their phones, despite the fact that mobile devices don't include any gaming-friendly input methods out of the box. They straight-up use the touchscreen to game on and are absolutely okay with it.
(Also IB4 someone replies to me with "I'm a teenager/20-something and I use a computer". Obviously I'm not referring to you, my dude. Just the average person your age. Also this is satire)
iPads now 💀
Kindle fire
What's the low-down on if extracting the EXE and putting it on Windows 10 works?
I found this guide: https://beebom.com/how-get-windows-11-paint-app-windows-10/ haven't verified it or anything though. It's a bit old but it should still be possible in any case.
Didn't they say they were retiring ms paint in 2017 for some other program no one had heard of?
Wasn't it something like Paint3D?
Yeah this was during the peak of VR hype when MS sunk a ton of money and effort into HoloLens and Mixed Reality.
I think they floated something like that, but there was push back.
Sounds like a good little update, love seeing more default apps/programs getting new visual updates and helpful features
All those Wordpad developers need something to do after all.
I use paint nearly every day to save something quickly. Glad to see it continue to be supported.
Does it still save in one of the most basic but still GIGANTIC file sizes?
Don't hate on Bitmap files.
They are good for glitch art (open in text editor and start mangling and you get some really cool results)
EDIT: references
It's like corrupting 8-bit games, isn't it?
I couldn't tell you the technical reasons, but yeah same concept: Break the source data in just the right way that the end result is interpret-able, but with interesting defects. There is a bit of an art to cutting and pasting and sculpting the data in just the right way. You get a feel for it after a while.
Watch me
what are bitmap files? are they just a list of pixels or something else
That's pretty much it. Apparently the format optionally supports compression and even transparency, but last time I used paint it didn't do any of that, which is why the files were so massive.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
The venerable, equally derided and beloved MS Paint app has been on a roll lately, picking up a major redesign, dark-mode support, better zoom controls, and other fit-and-finish updates all within the last couple of years.
But today Microsoft announced that it is finally adding two features that could make the app a bit more useful for power users: support for Photoshop-esque image layers and the ability to open and save transparent PNGs.
In an image program without support for layers, adding new elements to an image like this is always destructive—you lose the ability to see and edit the part of the sky that is covered by the plane and the cloud, and the part of the plane that is covered by the cloud.
Support for creating, editing, and saving transparent PNG images goes hand in hand with support for layers, since it's useful to be able to pull a single object out of an existing image so you can put it in a new one.
Transparent PNG support goes well with the automated background removal button that Microsoft added to Paint builds earlier this month.
The redesigned Paint is rolling out to Windows Insider testers in both the Dev and Canary channels, the two bleeding-edge and less-stable versions of Windows 11.
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Ballmer: my water is yours.
Thanks Steve Ballmer.
What stops them from bundling paintdotnet instead?
The license allows for redistribution
I'd love to see KDE KolourPaint add these features
Do they have variable weight? Are they planning to add that? Because I'd really like that for quick sketching and doodling.