We want teachers to be teaching and not having to waste time measuring a girl’s shirt or making a girl feel uncomfortable,” Shultz said.
Good because policing what girls wear stems from this fucked idea that boys have no sexual self control or responsibility for same and that women thus have to take responsibility for it via modesty.
So with those idiotic notions, rape victims get blamed for appearance, consent doesn't enter the conversation, rapey boys are "boys being boys", and similar awful shit.
For added context, Shultz is the school board president here. The stunt didn’t change the vote and the new policy that was being protested is the same as other schools in the area that didn’t have any problems regarding dressing.
For added context, Shultz is the school board president here.
Holy shit 😳 how did I miss that??
I'm glad his ridiculous antics failed.
His “ridiculous antics” consisted of complying with the proposed new rule.
What’s so ridiculous about that? Why consider it “antics”? Why did the other board member refer to him “taking off his clothes”?
yeah wtf that makes no sense
Not really no.
It comes from being distracting.
The point of school is learning, not fashion, not looking good.
Honestly this is why school uniforms are such a good idea. Cuts out the ambiguity of a dress code.
Point of school is learning, yes. And fashion and looking good is also a part of learning, and expressing yourself, and attracting like minded individuals to build friendships, etc.
Boys should be taught to control themselves if someone nearby is "distracting", hey another thing they can learn at school. Teach kids how to be adults, not just algebra.
The point is not about expressing yourself or looking good. Those are definitely positives.
The point is about dressing distractingly. Say for example the man in the picture takes class for you, are you telling me his outfit won't be distracting for you ?
It is distracting because it is out of place for where it is worn, school. This man could come like this for a party and he would be a hit.
The same applies for students, be it from any gender.
The counter argument I always see is "boys should be taught to control". While this is true and a certain amount of decency is expected from everyone even if they find someone attractive who is dressed non distractingly, the other side of the coin is that someone who is dressed inappropriately to the place (school) could distract "boys" even if they don't find the person attractive. This it is definitely the problem of the outfit.
In short the problem is the "everything goes" attitude
What happens outside of school when boys are faced with a much more relaxed dress code, you still going to victim blame and blame the outfit?
Eg,
Imagine this anywhere else "I was driving, I saw someone wearing something showy, and I killed a pedestrian. I can't believe that lady was dressed hot, they made me kill a pedestrian." Does that seem right? No. Still the fault of the person looking.
Completely agree. The post is about the school dress code though.
And why is it any different?
Because outside world you are free to be who you want to be. But in the school you are meant to study and there is a decorum. Very similar to a library, you cannot speak in a library because it is distracting.
I have to be clear here, the problem lies in the subjectivity that "what is appropriate". To solve this we have uniforms. And If there is a better solution I'm in for that.
But as I stated before, one should not be one sided in their thought about this problem. Not everything can be dumped on the "boys should learn" phrase.
While boys should definitely learn, the outfit also should fit the decorum.
Dude I went to a catholic school with uniforms, it doesn't stop you getting distracted.
I think all it did was give me a low level thing for tights 😅
Also in the "outside world" you aren't truely free, there is public indecency laws at the very least.
Uniform is the solution we have at the moment. But as you said that's not the best one. If there is a better solution we should go for it.
Regarding outside world, agree there as well. But compared to school obviously there is more freedom.
Overall, my whole point was the two sidedness of the issue.
You misunderstand me. I don't think its not the best solution.
I think uniform is a solution you think we have to a problem you think exists.
For as long as we've had young people in general education we have anecdotes of them being distracted because the way we do education is boring, it's never going to be solved unless there is reform.
Being distracted by their peers clothes is not a real problem it's just a type of distraction and I've told you that uniform doesn't stop this distraction. The actual solution is to massively increase the education budgets and nearly do a historical tutorage system for each child where they advance at their own speed with expert teachers in very small class sizes of 1-3. But this will probably never happen.
I imagine the boys could just leave if they don’t feel comfortable, and aren’t — as they are in school — forced to be present.
Not sure if you really read my comment. I was talking ONLY in the context of school, which the post is about.
What happens outside school is a different conversation. Much more general in fact. We'd probably on the same page in that conv I believe.
I did but my problem is I, as many other think school should be prepare kids and young adults for life.
And if school is meant to prepare you for adult life, it should somewhat emulate adult life in a safe setting. In which case talking about life outside is relevant.
Alternatively you're advocating for school to be more like prison lite where we can take control away from kids and young adults. Where they can't decide for themselves what to wear and they need to be protected from their uges because we think they should be considered guilty before they do anything because we think they can't resist and we refuse to teach them.
If governments around the world can consider 16 old enough to enlist and learn how to use and be responsible for a firearm then schools should consider that age old enough and responsible enough to act appropriately around women no matter how they are dressed.
School is a prison and pretending that it’s a bridge to the real world is not only naive it is counterproductive.
The reason there are uniforms in prison is because there are some dangerous mofos with poor control in there. Kinda like in school. The uniforms decrease the energy level of the place.
Not sure why we’d put the responsibility of learning self control on children while adults are treated as the creatures of limited self control they are.
A homeless man’s a product of his environment but a fourteen year old boy who can’t concentrate on calculus because titties are bouncing in his face all day is responsible for suppressing his own sexuality in service to the mission. Is that about right?
Adults are children and children are adults? Is that pretty much the rubric here?
Should be called intensely_inhumane 🤣
School shouldn't be like prison and neither should prison tbh.
Prison is designed as a punishment, its pretty problematic to want children to go through a similar system in their formative years, nevermimd that there is so much evidence that prison doesn't even work and just causes worse outcomes.
Treat someone like a criminal they will act like a criminal.
Lol, you immediately took the thought to the extremes. How can what I said be remotely prison like 😂
School is obviously meant to prepare one for adult life. As an adult you can't be publicly indecent, so can you not be at school.
Also, I agree everyone should act appropriately around everyone no matter how they are dressed.
I didn't understand what you meant by the firearm licence, but just so you know it is at least 18-21 minimum age with necessary courses and qualifications, around the world.
It's not really the extremes, it's exactly what you were calling for. You called for uniforms which is taking agency away from young people and you said that it is the duty of schools to protect (I assume only the male) students from distractions which involves punishing the girls and assuming the boys are guaranteed to be guilty of this crime of distraction.
Not gun lisences, im talking about joiming the military. A lot of countries have 16 or younger as enlisting age as well as children younger than that in cadets organisations.
School is a massive fuck you to personal agency. Trying to argue for dress codes as an aspect of agency is putting lipstick on a pig.
If you’re going to force kids to be at a place all day, you should give them some accommodations. For the boys, that’s helping them out with the distractions.
You are definitely failing to see the two sided argument this other poster is making. It’s a really important point, and you don’t even seem to realize it’s been made.
There's no two sides here, the aguments about distractions and agency fall apart when you compare countries like Sweden and Denmark where they don't have uniforms and allow the students lot more agency, against countries like the US, UK and Ireland where they infantalise their students and in the UK's and Ireland's case uniforms are mandatory.
The Nordic countries have way better school performance scores.
Should we take it to extremes and have everyone wear a sheet with two holes for eyes so nobody is "distracted"? Otherwise how do you know that something won't be distracting? Oh no, one kid is wearing a somewhat shiny watch--distraction imminent! Doom!
By the time kids hit high school, they're capable of not being distracted by others' attire and on occasion if they are, there's fortunately a teacher there to remind them to focus.
I recall being distracted a few times but I also didn't want to get in trouble or, you know, fail. And I have ADHD that wasn't diagnosed at the time. If someone is so easily distracted many schools will help the kid out (not like when I was growing up).
For example, my kid was distracted by noise when younger so she wore sound cancelling headphones. Now she can focus well enough without them.
Nobody is advocating for "anything goes." Some guidelines around basic decency are fine if it applies equally to boys and girls.
For example, my kid was distracted by noise when younger so she wore sound cancelling headphones.
Did they also have rules about noise levels? Like were other kids allowed to sing and shout at her while she took tests?
Yes they had rules. The distraction was from normal noise levels.
In short the problem is the "everything goes" attitude
Who is promoting an "everything goes" attitude? Was the school proposing to have no dress code at all? What specific suggested change in the dress code is the issue here?
This whole "we can't let students come to class on their underwear" argument doesn't hold any water if the new rules wouldn't allow it either.
While they don’t specify the new rules, there are a few clues in the arguments made to defend it:
Teachers shouldn’t be measuring clothing. This implies the new rules are not based on any kind of measurement
That leaves binary states of whether X body part is covered
The article states that exposing the midriff is among the newly-allowed items
They also argue for leaving it to the parents to decide what’s appropriate. This actually seems to imply the new rule is “anything goes [so far as school enforcement is concerned]”
Except anything can be distracting and there's a certainly a reason why the school girl outfit has so many sexy versions and lingerie. School uniforms are a terrible idea for many reasons. You generally can't buy then second hand, low income families now need two sets of clothing for their kids, and it is possible to buy "higher quality" ones from places like Macy's.
Obviously the schools should provide them.
On the other hand if there’s enough open market that you can buy them at Macy’s, there’s no reason you’d be any less able to buy second-hand uniforms than any other clothing.
So the options are:
You have to buy them from the school. That sucks.
They’re provided by the school. Now the poor kids are actually equal to the richer kids.
You can buy anything that adheres to the right dress code, and that’s your “uniform”. In this case there’s nothing stopping them from buying them second hand.
The only failure mode then is when you have to buy them from the school, at which point poor families are more put upon … assuming the uniforms are more expensive than other clothes. But it’s the same with textbooks, sports equipment, etc.
What do you think would be a sensible dress code? Or would you say that all dress codes are bad?
I'm just curious. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other.
You’re being downvoted because questions that might lead to a person changing their mind, if they honestly engaged with the question, are considered mind tricks by some people.
“Oh the earth is flat? Why do you suppose you’ve never seen a picture of the edge then?”
“Your jedi mind tricks won’t work on me!”
I tell you what would REALLY help me not get distracted at school, if the girls had to wear burqas.
Then us fellas don't need to worry about learning self control or mental discipline. It's win win! By which I mean, two wins for men.
If burkas were worn by everyone they’d be way less of an issue.
I only agree with you because I could stare at the ass of a girl I used to have in my class all day. And I know for a fact I wasn't the only one.
Uffff but yhe that's still my fault and my bad, I shouldn't be asking her to wear more clothes so I can focus
A uniform doesn't stop that through, someone who is distracted by girls will continue to be distracted by girls no matter what they are wearing. Same goes for the other way around.
And you failed as a result?
If so, or if not, was that due to the ass or you?
Naaah I'm fine homie I'm in uni rn, but still deam that was an ass
Right on man. Yeah most folks get a little distracted but keep it together.
For me, History class, the prettiest girl in the school and one of the sweetest. Green eyes like emeralds. Could've just started at her all day but she sat behind in the row over so it would've been kinda obvious lol. Also I wanted to pass lol. I still remember her from time to time.
I went to a public high school where boys had to wear long pants all year round. We didn't have air conditioners. Meanwhile girls would wear skirts.
So stop woth the sexism.
Public schools should just have uniforms of a polo shirt and slacks , shorts or knee high skirts and that is it.
It will help also woth poor kids not having to be made fun of when some people come in with Gucci purses amd expensive shit.
Sounds like the dress code hurts boys as well. The solution is still to reform.
I've heard of male students wearing skirts in protest and that normally works with the Puritan school administrators.
Yes we wore kilts to protest and the. A few years later they did the same thing woth walk outside and. A heat wave putting finals in a 100 degree weather and they changed it.
Uniforms is what works. It prevents bullying
I'm having a hard time parsing out your liberal interpretation of grammar.
Uniforms is what works. It prevents bullying
So does actually enforcing anti-bullying laws, but that would take effort by the teachers.
Yes and teacher effort is a limited resource which is why these rules should be considered based on their simplicity. A dress code is simpler than anti-bullying rules to enforce.
Children and teenagers can't be watched 24/7 and with larger class sizes it's very hard to catch all bullying.
But you already know thay.
I've had it happen repeatedly in plain view of the teacher during class. But I guess you never experienced that. Must be nice.
You shouldn't assume what others have gone through. You just look like an ass when you do
Who purchases the uniforms? You mentioned impoverished kids being made fun of, but the parents have to buy the expensive, overinflated uniforms as well. Wouldn't that put more strain on less well off families, having to buy specific clothes for their child's attendance, each year for each child?
No. It was just single colored shirt and pants. We got wal mart shirts for the dress code. They'll still fuck with you for your shoes.
Yeah, kids will bully other kids no matter what. It doesn't matter what the rules allow to be worn.
Well I guess we won’t know for sure until we see some data.
The parents do. We have to purchase school supplies and get nickeled and dimed for PTO stuff and field trips plus the school lunches.
Imagine if we expected soldiers to buy their rifle, pay for their meals, pay for their uniforms, imagine the outcry about troop readiness. Why do we tolerate it with education?
Crazily enough we do to some extent. They issue you a bunch of stuff in boot camp. It comes out of your pay.
It's sorta the same but not, the government knows the money is there they are just doing funny accounting. When the school sends me a notice that one of my kids needs something they have no idea what my financial situation is. This matters. Soldiers can concentrate on learning how to do their thing, students are distracted by demands to figure out how to buy something.
I'm generally not in favor of uniforms, but this argument really goes both ways: who purchases (potentially very expensive brand) clothes in a school setting where the expectation is that kids constantly wear nice, new clothes to school? Even assuming that bullying or mobbing based on clothes isn't an issue, the cost to keep buying outfits could easily be higher than the cost of uniforms.
That said, I've known problematic settings only by proxy. At my school, nobody gave a fuck about what students were wearing, there was no dress code, and I would have absolutely hated being forced to wear a uniform.
I disagree completely. Uniforms have been proven to not help with anything they claim to. For one, they generally can't be bought second hand.
Dude if you’re a parent with a friend group of other parents in your school district, there will absolutely be hand-me-downs going all over the damn place.
My kids have so many clothes that they’ve never worn because we just keep passing clothes around, between their friends and cousins, everyone is growing so fast, it’s foolish to be spending a ton of money on brand new clothes unless we need something for a specific special occasion.
I’m sure school uniforms, as long as they are consistent, would be swapped around. I’m sure there would be parent groups forming on Nextdoor and Facebook to swap clothes. And I’m sure they would show up at the thrift stores.
Secondhand uniforms would not be a problem.
But honestly the most important part is that schools don’t treat it as a fundraiser. They should be able to buy in bulk and coordinate with neighboring districts on selection to maximize discounts, and sell at slightly above cost in order to offset free/reduced cost outfits for low income families.
In other words, in theory, it should be less expensive to dress your kids in school uniform.
Personally I think uniforms solve a lot more problems than they cause. They sacrifice a bit of self-expression (at least the older kids, who mostly dress and style themselves), but at the same time, it takes a big hit out of financial inequality bullying. Combined with universal lunch programs it basically destroys it.
That in itself is worth it. Kids getting bullied (or feeling empowered, for that matter) for things 100% out of their control (like the caste they’re born into) shouldn’t be a thing.
Fine you have convinced me. I expect you to send meoney to pay for my kids uniform. Money order or cash since you don't seem like a person of your word.
I’m sorry what evidence have you seen this person isn’t true to their word?
Their lying.
Private schools have used uniform sales, buying second hand is not a problem.
Private schools are not public schools. Impoverished cannot afford private schools. And Uniforms are not interchangeable.
Hey here is an idea. School uniform companies should make it so they have to change it every year like textbook makers do. All it will take to convince the school is telling them that the old uniforms were end-of-lifed and a campaign donation to the school board reps. Parents will be offered a 5% discount if they mail back their old clothing. The clothing will interlock together so you can't mix last year's shirt with this year's pants without it being super noticeable. Which will kill the secondary market.
CaaS, clothing as a service. You will own nothing and be happy.
Brb getting turtleneck on, because I am a visionary now.
You. I like you.
Here have some stock in my 80 billion dollar startup. We haven't made any money yet but we have plenty of venture capital.
What do you think about data mining our customers and selling that information?
enshitfication is speedy now a days
Should I already prepare my announcement to do damage control after we broke a feature our customers liked?
I think we should just purposely break the website so they can’t give feedback or make it as annoying as possible. Let them waste hours on a website trying to give feedback on a loop of where their login fails and their profile continues to disappear until they give up. Or you could just remove the ability to give feedback altogether. And put a contact number on the website that puts them on hold indefinitely. That’s what I hear the cool kids are doing.
Ed choice has enabled many kids to attend private schools, tutition is actually less than the cost per pupil that that public schools cost.
Wtf is Ed choice. Oh. another ‘only American’/scholarship-rewarding-elites thing again. You’re using ‘many’ very liberally.
A way to divert money from public sector to scumbags in private sector who won't follow any of the government regulations or take underperforming students.
Private schools can fire someone for being LGBT, public schools can't. Private schools can share private medical information with parents (like being LGBT) or seeking birth control, public can't except under very regulated conditions. Private schools can get out of teaching evolution and sex ed, public schools can't. The list goes on and on. Public funding of private schools breaks a century of progress. We are going to see a brave new world with football couches and school admins making millions while teachers are making daycare worker salaries teaching from books based on a prot understanding of the bible.
What you said sounded wrong, so I asked the AI about it. I know the AI is wrong sometimes, but doesn’t this seem more like the truth than what you said about private schools firing people for being LGBT?
In the United States, federal law protects employees from discrimination based on their sexuality. The Supreme Court ruled in June 2020 that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits discrimination based on sex, also covers sexual orientation and gender identity. Therefore, it is illegal to fire someone for being gay.
Religious schools do not have to conform with non-discrimination laws.
If you are going to a private school, it's kinda implied money isn't a huge issue anyways. Your parents are paying for you to attend this exclusive school, after all.
But you can't take Johnson Academy's uniform to Brentwood. So, if Brentwood isn't having a sale, what then?
Ed choice has enabled many kids to attend private schools.
Kids grow and their uniforms don't fit, giving them to the school to resell as a fundraiser or giving them directly to other students is common. On top of that most private schools do not have embroidered cressents on their uniforms so they can be used interchangeably. Private schools are different than what you see on TV.
Citation needed that every private school on earth has one
You need a source that every private school has kids that grow out of their uniforms?
Yes clearly that is exactly what I fucking asked about since it has 0% to do with the claim you made. That makes so so much sense.
Really putting that private school education to work today.
I'm going to need you to put your big boy thinking cap on for a second.
What do you think happens to uniforms that kids grow out of?
And I want a fucking citation that every single private school on earth has a second hand shop affiliated with it.
Guess critical thinking isn't taught at private school
If you understood critical thinking at all you would know what you are asking for is impossible. What I'm trying to figure out is if you are too dumb to know that, too dumb to realize your gotcha is not one, or both.
Let's look at my statement "private schools have used uniform sales". The question you an intelligent person would ask is at what point does the number of schools that do not have used uniform sales invalidate that statement. Not even the biggest mouth breather would claim that only one school that does not offer a used uniform sale invalidates the statement, they would be adept enough to notice that the word all is missing.
Sorry your claim is difficult to support. You can hang out with the aliens and lock ness people now
If you were more than barely literate you be able to comprehend what I wrote.
I'm sorry why is your solution "make the poors pay for something else."
Poor kids still need clothes. But if you have a uniform you only need a few shirts and pants and they are all the same so no.one will know if you only have three sets of the uniform.
If you need to wear a different outfit every day to.school you would need at least five completely different outfits and to be oerfectly honest at least 10 so you wouldn't repeat often enough for people to notice younare wearing the same outfits all the time.
Uniforms actually reduce costs for.poor students and reduce bullying.
But of course run your mouth with nonsense cause it sounds smart.
I was one of those poor kids, so I remember being price gouged every year when I no longer fit my clothing. I also remember switching to a school that didn't, and suddenly it was less expensive because, unlike your implication, I didn't run around naked outside of my uniform when not in school, and wore the same clothing in and out. I also remember doing research and citing sources for my claims, which you seem to be short on. Maybe it's because you're not wearing your uniform right now? Can you provide a source for any of your claims?
not agreeing. i would want to wear my clothes. just casual, nothing gucci or else. the school should offer uniforms but without forcing studemts to wear it. something like an advertisement.
The whole point of removing the choice is to remove the signals that the choices send. Making the uniform an option goes against the definition of “uniform”.
One option. Everyone the same. That’s what “uniform” means.
Yeah this is all wrong
It won't be clothing can just get at Walmart, is practical, and comfortable. It will be polyester Landsend shit that is too expensive, rips easily, takes weeks to get there, and feels like steel wool on your skin. Meanwhile teachers and admins will continue to wear what they want.
It won't promote equality since the poor kids will just have ripped up stuff and the rich kids will load up on the accessories
Fucking deal with it. You should be able to handle not having the best clothing in life. I did.
My school tried a uniform for a few years and I have never once forgave them for that. I won't allow my kids to be punished the same way. Also someone found their old uniform in the attic many years later, shredded it with a knife, and mailed it to their former principal with a note that told them that's what I think of your messed up uniform policy you forced on us.
Your point 2 is essentially “It won’t promote equality since [it won’t be enforced]”
Not at all.
You aren't well informed and just are going off your own personal experience.
I worked for a school district that implemented school uniforms after a kid attempted suicide for bullying.
The dress code required polo shirts from multiple companies including target, Walmart, Costco house brands and slacks or black jeans with no rips. Bullying drastically dropped across schools in the district (there were 9 schools)
The kids name? Albert Einstein. And everyone clapped.
It would be Alberta since either was a female. But good try.
You're getting down voted but as someone who had exactly 3 shirts and 2 pair of shorts in high school, I would have vastly preferred a uniform mandate. My mom had enough money she just didn't see extra clothes as a necessary expense for her. She would have been forced to get the uniforms and I would have had an easier time in high school.
People are also saying that's an unnecessary expense for the poor people, but why can the school afford the building, the teachers, administration, etc, but not 5 pairs of clothes for the students? Maybe even for need based students?
why can the school afford the building, the teachers, administration, etc, but not 5 pairs of clothes for the students
Even in public schools, parents have to pay for the gym uniform. Books too.
I have not paid a cent for either and my kids attend public
As a dad, that’s very concerned about my children ....
I may disagree with it, but his kids aren't mine, so he, as the parent, he can prevent his daughters from owning that offending clothing.
...as well as everyone else’s kids in the district,
And here's where it goes off the rails. Why don't you keep your own parenting in your house instead of your neighbor's house, eh? Are you also going to decide what books other parent's kids read? How about what religious beliefs (if any) other parent's kids follow? None of that is your business. If other parents are okay with their kids dressing that way you shouldn't get a say on that.
Sadly, there are plenty of people trying to dictate what other people's children read based on their own feelings
They'll indoctrinate other people's children into their religion too, if they get the chance.
Yeah my girlfriend’s kids get crap for being atheists from Christian classmates who were clearly taught to act that way by their parents
Yes they most likely will. Because Christians are commanded to do so by their religious text which furthermore makes it pretty clear that not doing so is a Bad Thing™ (not damnable but God will be displeased). So the more fundamentalist denominations take this literally and proselytize all over. However, the case for Christians forcing their morals and worldview on literally everyone is, I think, far weaker.
I thought Bible commanded everyone to love thy neighbour and everything
Yes. And in those culty spaces, they redefine love. It's a brainwashing technique.
but not those neighbors
Maybe focus on parenting your own child instead of everyone's.
Also does this guy have a humiliation fetish?
Lunatic pulls stupid stunt to get his way, policy voted affirmative regardless.
Because kids interact with each other at school. The whole point of rules is to affect social interaction, to shape how people’s behavior is able to affect others.
Because kids interact with each other at school. The whole point of rules is to affect social interaction, to shape how people’s behavior is able to affect others.
A parent choosing to use public schools doesn't get 100% control over what their child is exposed to. That "kids interact with others at school" is the point where the parents teaching in their child needs to hold up when the parent isn't there. I would think that is a large part of raising children. A parent knows as some point in the future their child will be an adult, and out of the control of the parents. Interaction with other kids at public schools is where that first is encountered.
If a parent demands 100% control of the children 24/7/365, then the choice is home schooling, and hopefully the child can afford good therapists when they are an adult to undo that damage.
Ever heard of peer pressure in high school? Sure you can tell your own kids to wear proper clothing. But if she has friends walking around in beach clothing and she's not, she's gonna be left out.
Board just has to state: wear what you want but see to it that it at least goes to the top of your knees and it covers your ribs.
Ever heard of peer pressure in high school? Sure you can tell your own kids to wear proper clothing. But if she has friends walking around in beach clothing and she’s not, she’s gonna be left out.
You're arguing a different issue. Remove any midriff elements from the conversation and you could be talking about the latest designer shoes or brand of jeans. So midriff specifically is immaterial to that argument. If you want an environment of uniform dress, then you're arguing for school uniforms. Arguments pro and con of school uniforms are outside of the scope of this discussion.
Board just has to state: wear what you want but see to it that it at least goes to the top of your knees and it covers your ribs.
And then we get back to the problem that the Board is trying to get away from which is educators being forced to become "fashion police". There's been historical problems with that including selective enforcement. The actions the Board are taking are specifically to let educators be educators.
Shouldn't the parents be watching what their kids wear if they are worried about? A basic dress code is all that is needed. Just like the board said its a waste of time to measure girls skirts. Maybe if we didn't taboo the body so much people wouldn't care what someone else is wearing.
Hahahaha my parents “watched my clothing” so I either had extra clothes in my bag that I’d change into, or I’d wear them under a top layer of “approved” clothing and take it off later.
Parent, here. My kids wear whatever the hell they want, and because I'm not giving them any reason to rebel, they don't feel any urge to do that kind of thing.
And if they did for fun or something? I wouldn't give a shit.
I agree I changed my clothes too sometimes in high school. But still a basic dress code would cover the more extreme outfit. But when it comes to a skirt being a slightly short I don't think its worth the school time to check.
Agreed. We all have bodies. Underwear is appropriate for shared spaces (most people dont want to sit on anyone else's ass juice) but aside from that this prudishness of the human form that many people have is silly to me.
Even if the dad DID walk around like that, I think that's his business. We should all be allowed to wear what we want (undies for sanitary reasons) and if something is offensive then people could just, you know, not look!
Come on man. Keep your hands off of my assless chaps!
Ok, but only if you promise to wear a buttplug and use a towel
“As a board we voted to ultimately let parents and families decide what is appropriate for them. It is the parents and family’s choice and as long as it doesn’t disrupt the school day, it would be a non-issue.”
I was not expecting this level of common sense from an Arizona school board. Good on them.
Small government conservatives: "get the government and all its "rules" out of our lives!"
School board: "you're right, each family should decide what schoolwear is appropriate and I guess people will have to manage themselves and their own reputation.."
Small government conservatives: "no not like that!"
Gilbert, AZ also has an incredibly high Mormon population. The Mormon churches (or whatever they call the smaller satellite buildings that aren't temples) are like Starbucks, one on nearly every corner. This must not be one of their school boards.
To be fair though, it's also a very safe, clean, and well maintained suburb. Probably the overall best family friendly city in the entire Phoenix metro.
The Mormon churches (or whatever they call the smaller satellite buildings that aren’t temples)
They're called a chapel building or chapels, of which 2-4 congregations (named wards) share. And then a collection of wards are organized into a stake, and they share a bigger building named a stake center for periodic meetings and events together.
And just a heads up, the current "Mormon" prophet has decreed that the moniker "Mormon" has fallen out of favor, and instead should be called "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", the full name (there's some shorter names in that link). So if you see people down voting you, it's probably due to that.
So it's not longer the "Mormon prophet", it's the "the prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". And it's no longer "he's a Mormon", it's "he's a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". And it's no longer the "Mormon missionaries", it's "a missionary of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".
I think that's silly, and I believe once there's a new prophet again, the word "Mormon" will be ok. But I guess time will tell!
Fuck any of the assholes downvoting you, that was a good response, and thanks. I knew they were called something else, but I couldn't remember what.
As far the LDS vs Mormon, I'm aware, but unfortunately the Missionaries don't come to my house anymore to talk about the prophet, or anything else. They used to come, like alot, like all the time, it was kinda odd. But when I started providing them copies of Letter to a CES Director, well, they havent been back in years.
I actually find myself siding with the board here, if only because I have heard all too often about dress codes being overly restrictive or overly enforced. Like the board said, they don't want teachers wasting time measuring a girl's shirt when they should be teaching.
If only any of these parents cared about supporting teachers and their kids actually learning.
also, none of the traumatic things that happened to me in my adolescence were based around the clothes any of us were wearing.
Sometimes my daughter wants to go to school in something too revealing.
We tell her to change because we're her parents and that's called parenting. We don't need the school to tell her what to wear.
Nobody's concerned with what their own children are wearing. They're concerned that they might be exposed to abdomen skin (the horror!) because of what someone else's child is wearing.
His argument is that he looks like a fool dressed like that, so everyone who dresses like that looks like a fool? Weird thinking.
his argument is the new dresscode would allow young girls to dress like that and he thinks the school should police it, instead of just raising his kids to be well adjusted and responsible. or it makes his pp hard and it makes it harder to hide that he's a pedo when he's in public
The goal of people pushing agendas like this is the elimination of public education and state support for religious schools via “charter schools”. A lot of the people who run for school board who push parents rights are religious fundamentalists, real estate developers, or charter school consultants. This is at least true where I live.
Kind of tangential but towards the end of HS we had this ongoing trend of wearing costumes to school every wednesday. Some of the class participated more often than others, some (including me) barely participated at all.
There was one week where everyone was determined to participate though, because we had planned for boys to go dressed as girls and vice-versa. I still didn't really care to join them but some friends of mine said they'd lend me some of their clothes and makeup so I'd have no excuse to not participate.
What I didn't anticipate is that they'd dress me up just like the guy in the pic, only difference being that I'm underweight, not overweight. Still looked like a fool though, but that was part of the fun, not some pseudo political statement.
Anyways, tangent over.
I thought this was going to turn into an egg_irl comment
Boys and girls used to cross dress for fun without it having to be a statement
The statement was "look at how funny it is to wear clothes of the wrong gender. Isn't it hilarious that a woman could be wearing pants?! Hahahaha"
Yeah. No thanks
I hope you find some mental peace some day. It must be exhausting to have so many sticks up your butt.
So you're saying in the 90s, the "let's all crossdress at school" was all about normalizing clothing regardless of gender, being inclusive of people's gender and clothing choices, and and destigmatizing gender non confirming people? It wasn't because the idea of a boy in a skirt was a concept that should me mocked and thought of as a joke?
It could easily be neither of those things. Most things are neither of those things.
It was simply a fun tradition. Some people were assholes about it that way, sure, and some people were excited they could finally girlmode or boymode in public for a day, but for most of us, we were just excited for drag day or whatever we called it back then because it was a fun communal activity. Festival atmosphere. We'd plan group outfits with our besties and whatnot. It was great.
Something awakened in that dad that night. You can see it in his eyes he enjoyed the voyeurism. Since the meeting he's been seen working alleys and freeway off ramps for tips.
My high school and middle school would have spirit weeks and such where every day is a different theme. They just couldn't have pajama day because apparently "some people would take it too far"
Oh, he's a never-nude too! I didn't see him at the convention last year in Berlin. There were literally dozens of us there. Dozens!
Real big get back in the kitchen energy from this guy. He probably needs the kids more covered up because he can't control himself around too much exposed teenage girl skin.
From the headline I thought he was protesting in the other direction… get back in the kitchen energy is a great way to phrase his stance.
I hope someone called the police. Someone stole that poor man's ass.
Hank Hill lookin mfer
Can't parents just talk to their children about how to dress?
I feel like that's a simpler solution and this way the school can focus on teaching.
My wifes a teacher, they do have to spend an absolutely mind boggling amount of time covering shit that really should be handled at home. Literally calling parents about their kids refusing to do any work and the parent saying "I dont know what you want me to do"
Just wanted to echo this as my experience too. It's unreal how many times my wife has to change her entire lesson plan for an entire grade because one parent wanted to complain about a non-issue while at the same time parents refuse to address real issues that disrupt not just their student but the learning experience of everyone else.
it's crazy that they're making a crop top and short shorts mandatory dress code for all students
Looking good dude! Slay king
We are like teenagers trying to break every single rule forgetting why they are in place .
I currently work in a school, and it can be very awkward walking up steps when students have incredibly short shorts, skirts, dresses, ect. The amount of underage skin (glutes, a little too much cleavage, and male nipples with loose tank tops) genuinely makes me feel uncomfortable and it's not like I'm trying to see anything. There is no one solution to make everybody happy, and I don't think uniforms are great or terrible, but I think it would always be better to air on the side of caution and establish standards/ dress codes. Almost every profession has standards and dress codes too, so I don't see what's wrong with trying to get students in the habit, at least in highschool when they start getting into the work field. Idk, disagree with me if you want, but I think this is reasonable.
Why can't we normalize open communication, instead of authoritarian nonsense. Rules systems are unnecessarily demeaning and oppressive. It should be perfectly normal for a teacher to say, "hey I feel a little bit uncomfortable about what you are wearing." The school staff should be held to a much higher standard than the students, where if they are excessive about their opinions it should be addressed long before students. IMO the biggest problem in schools is a lack of reason and respect for students as real people.
I will also say, when I worked at a highschool a few years ago (I'm now middle school) a male teacher did pipe up about a student whose skirt was so short that he could see their underwear and buttocks and the parents called him a pedophile for trying to, "Look at their daughter," however, he only complained because he was uncomfortable. A pedophile probably wouldn't have said anything. Like I said, I don't think there is going to be any one size solution. It's pretty annoying. I do agree, school staff should be held to a high standard, but just in general. Teaching is a profession and we should present ourselves as professionals. I'm sorry if your experience with schools made you feel like teachers don't care about students as real people. In my experience, being on staff at the district I went to, all the teachers I work with spent years in school learning how to help because they genuinely care for the kids.
If the dress code is gonna be a problem, just make everyone wear a school uniform and be done with it.
School uniforms are a waste of time.
I taught in a really low socio-economic area for a few years. The uniforms served 2 purposes:
Stop gang affiliation shit
Inexpensive for families on very, very tight budgets.
Inexpensive for families on very, very tight budgets
This is what I don't trust will happen. Jostens or any number of other shitty companies will happily sell overpriced uniforms that cost hundreds of dollars and partner with school districts to ensure a captive market to pay their insane markups
Not only that, but it can help to minimize prejudice by both students and staff with regard to students' socioeconomic status.
No it doesn't. You can easily tell which dtufent have the nice, new uniforms and which have the ill fitting hand-me-downs. Besides, status is not just conveyed by clothing. It's also accessories, phones, etc.
"Help to minimize," not "eliminate."
Two approved colors, red and blue, are generally gang colors.
No, they're not. You generally can't buy then second hand. I've never seen uniforms at a resale store.
Huh? Second hand uniform sales are massive in the UK. Every school has one. Maybe not in the states? Don't know why..
It was definitely a thing where I worked in Los Angeles county.
Both of those points do not match the experience I had.
Stop gang affiliation shit
You should workshop your standup in person probably
It can't be that slow of a news day in... oh. Fox. A local Fox station. Of course they'd want to take antics like this from Arizona and put them on the news in Oregon where they're definitely relevant. Bullshit like this is why you can't believe the folk who claim these local fox affiliates are unbiased.
Every local TV News station is likely to be conservative, no matter which broadcaster they are affiliated with. Sinclair, Hearst, Scripps, etc, they are all right wing, even by American standards.
I don’t know about you degenerates but my heart and mind is changed. Thank you, Fupapa.
And what state is this in?
One where they're banning books and critical race theory even if critical race theory is a college course?
He was against letting girls show their bellies because it would 'distract the boys' or some other bullshit that goes right along with the book burning.
The freedom with which adult men will voluntarily say they think that 12yr old over there is too sexy for anyone to get any work done. The implication that they're just physically unable to police themselves in the presence of an uncovered elbow and need outside help. If thy right eye offend thee.
Denial. Seriously tho it's in Arizona where the typical summer temp is around 165f
Yes, police what my children are wearing for me. Maybe the extra clothes will stop the bullets.
Oh yeah, there's always that. America's so fucking scary man...
Too many commenters here think dress codes are all about "boys have no self control so girls should suffer".
"“The fact that we have adults advocating for children to have less clothing on is absurd to me,” she said."
But they're not? They're advocating for children to not be forced to wear as much clothing, which isn't quite the same.
Companies have dress codes. Is it too much for kids to have a predictable leveling environment where the most important thing is learning? Once they're grown up, "Katy" not being able to wear a bikini on the office floor, or Todd not being able to wear his gym tank top on the hotel front desk becomes obvious. So why is restricting that at school not ok?
Three points: 1) school is not a job, 2) dress codes are rarely enforced evenly (girls are usually overpoliced; non-whites as well), and 3) school staff worrying about how students are dressed rather than something relevant to learning is a distraction.
Kids go to school to learn tho, is it not reasonable to expect it to be free from sexual distractions, especially for teenagers? It’s harder to learn in environments like that, just like it’s hard to work a professional job.
I believe that companies shouldn't have dress codes either. Clothing is not indicative of the ability to perform the task required. Clothing is also overly sexualized, the argument is always "woman shouldn't wear a bikini", but that's a product of the over sexualization of women. When a woman showing skin is viewed in a sexual manner, all clothes that show skin are problematic.
It's been said before but also many school dress codes, especially hair codes are overtly racist.
Because we do something wrong in one area in life we must do something wrong in all areas of life?
You are right companies have dress codes. And they are almost never for work that needs it.
Dress code is a great idea and is a way to set standards.
People need to have more respect for themselves and for society.
But we just going down a pit of degradation so happy my country still has some self respect with shirts and ties.
Shirts and ties? How bourgeois. In MY country we still wear ceremonial full plate mail armor.
Lot of pedos in the comments.
I agree with your words but I suspect I don't agree with your motivation.
You really do have to wonder about people who are obsessed with having children dress in a certain way. I don't notice or care how my kids or their friends dress.
Good because policing what girls wear stems from this fucked idea that boys have no sexual self control or responsibility for same and that women thus have to take responsibility for it via modesty.
So with those idiotic notions, rape victims get blamed for appearance, consent doesn't enter the conversation, rapey boys are "boys being boys", and similar awful shit.
For added context, Shultz is the school board president here. The stunt didn’t change the vote and the new policy that was being protested is the same as other schools in the area that didn’t have any problems regarding dressing.
Holy shit 😳 how did I miss that??
I'm glad his ridiculous antics failed.
His “ridiculous antics” consisted of complying with the proposed new rule.
What’s so ridiculous about that? Why consider it “antics”? Why did the other board member refer to him “taking off his clothes”?
yeah wtf that makes no sense
Not really no.
It comes from being distracting.
The point of school is learning, not fashion, not looking good.
Honestly this is why school uniforms are such a good idea. Cuts out the ambiguity of a dress code.
Point of school is learning, yes. And fashion and looking good is also a part of learning, and expressing yourself, and attracting like minded individuals to build friendships, etc.
Boys should be taught to control themselves if someone nearby is "distracting", hey another thing they can learn at school. Teach kids how to be adults, not just algebra.
The point is not about expressing yourself or looking good. Those are definitely positives.
The point is about dressing distractingly. Say for example the man in the picture takes class for you, are you telling me his outfit won't be distracting for you ?
It is distracting because it is out of place for where it is worn, school. This man could come like this for a party and he would be a hit.
The same applies for students, be it from any gender.
The counter argument I always see is "boys should be taught to control". While this is true and a certain amount of decency is expected from everyone even if they find someone attractive who is dressed non distractingly, the other side of the coin is that someone who is dressed inappropriately to the place (school) could distract "boys" even if they don't find the person attractive. This it is definitely the problem of the outfit.
In short the problem is the "everything goes" attitude
What happens outside of school when boys are faced with a much more relaxed dress code, you still going to victim blame and blame the outfit?
Eg, Imagine this anywhere else "I was driving, I saw someone wearing something showy, and I killed a pedestrian. I can't believe that lady was dressed hot, they made me kill a pedestrian." Does that seem right? No. Still the fault of the person looking.
Completely agree. The post is about the school dress code though.
And why is it any different?
Because outside world you are free to be who you want to be. But in the school you are meant to study and there is a decorum. Very similar to a library, you cannot speak in a library because it is distracting.
I have to be clear here, the problem lies in the subjectivity that "what is appropriate". To solve this we have uniforms. And If there is a better solution I'm in for that.
But as I stated before, one should not be one sided in their thought about this problem. Not everything can be dumped on the "boys should learn" phrase.
While boys should definitely learn, the outfit also should fit the decorum.
Dude I went to a catholic school with uniforms, it doesn't stop you getting distracted.
I think all it did was give me a low level thing for tights 😅
Also in the "outside world" you aren't truely free, there is public indecency laws at the very least.
Uniform is the solution we have at the moment. But as you said that's not the best one. If there is a better solution we should go for it.
Regarding outside world, agree there as well. But compared to school obviously there is more freedom.
Overall, my whole point was the two sidedness of the issue.
You misunderstand me. I don't think its not the best solution.
I think uniform is a solution you think we have to a problem you think exists.
For as long as we've had young people in general education we have anecdotes of them being distracted because the way we do education is boring, it's never going to be solved unless there is reform.
Being distracted by their peers clothes is not a real problem it's just a type of distraction and I've told you that uniform doesn't stop this distraction. The actual solution is to massively increase the education budgets and nearly do a historical tutorage system for each child where they advance at their own speed with expert teachers in very small class sizes of 1-3. But this will probably never happen.
I imagine the boys could just leave if they don’t feel comfortable, and aren’t — as they are in school — forced to be present.
Not sure if you really read my comment. I was talking ONLY in the context of school, which the post is about.
What happens outside school is a different conversation. Much more general in fact. We'd probably on the same page in that conv I believe.
I did but my problem is I, as many other think school should be prepare kids and young adults for life.
And if school is meant to prepare you for adult life, it should somewhat emulate adult life in a safe setting. In which case talking about life outside is relevant.
Alternatively you're advocating for school to be more like prison lite where we can take control away from kids and young adults. Where they can't decide for themselves what to wear and they need to be protected from their uges because we think they should be considered guilty before they do anything because we think they can't resist and we refuse to teach them.
If governments around the world can consider 16 old enough to enlist and learn how to use and be responsible for a firearm then schools should consider that age old enough and responsible enough to act appropriately around women no matter how they are dressed.
School is a prison and pretending that it’s a bridge to the real world is not only naive it is counterproductive.
The reason there are uniforms in prison is because there are some dangerous mofos with poor control in there. Kinda like in school. The uniforms decrease the energy level of the place.
Not sure why we’d put the responsibility of learning self control on children while adults are treated as the creatures of limited self control they are.
A homeless man’s a product of his environment but a fourteen year old boy who can’t concentrate on calculus because titties are bouncing in his face all day is responsible for suppressing his own sexuality in service to the mission. Is that about right?
Adults are children and children are adults? Is that pretty much the rubric here?
Should be called intensely_inhumane 🤣
School shouldn't be like prison and neither should prison tbh.
Prison is designed as a punishment, its pretty problematic to want children to go through a similar system in their formative years, nevermimd that there is so much evidence that prison doesn't even work and just causes worse outcomes.
Treat someone like a criminal they will act like a criminal.
Lol, you immediately took the thought to the extremes. How can what I said be remotely prison like 😂
School is obviously meant to prepare one for adult life. As an adult you can't be publicly indecent, so can you not be at school.
Also, I agree everyone should act appropriately around everyone no matter how they are dressed.
I didn't understand what you meant by the firearm licence, but just so you know it is at least 18-21 minimum age with necessary courses and qualifications, around the world.
It's not really the extremes, it's exactly what you were calling for. You called for uniforms which is taking agency away from young people and you said that it is the duty of schools to protect (I assume only the male) students from distractions which involves punishing the girls and assuming the boys are guaranteed to be guilty of this crime of distraction.
Not gun lisences, im talking about joiming the military. A lot of countries have 16 or younger as enlisting age as well as children younger than that in cadets organisations.
School is a massive fuck you to personal agency. Trying to argue for dress codes as an aspect of agency is putting lipstick on a pig.
If you’re going to force kids to be at a place all day, you should give them some accommodations. For the boys, that’s helping them out with the distractions.
You are definitely failing to see the two sided argument this other poster is making. It’s a really important point, and you don’t even seem to realize it’s been made.
There's no two sides here, the aguments about distractions and agency fall apart when you compare countries like Sweden and Denmark where they don't have uniforms and allow the students lot more agency, against countries like the US, UK and Ireland where they infantalise their students and in the UK's and Ireland's case uniforms are mandatory.
The Nordic countries have way better school performance scores.
Should we take it to extremes and have everyone wear a sheet with two holes for eyes so nobody is "distracted"? Otherwise how do you know that something won't be distracting? Oh no, one kid is wearing a somewhat shiny watch--distraction imminent! Doom!
By the time kids hit high school, they're capable of not being distracted by others' attire and on occasion if they are, there's fortunately a teacher there to remind them to focus.
I recall being distracted a few times but I also didn't want to get in trouble or, you know, fail. And I have ADHD that wasn't diagnosed at the time. If someone is so easily distracted many schools will help the kid out (not like when I was growing up).
For example, my kid was distracted by noise when younger so she wore sound cancelling headphones. Now she can focus well enough without them.
Nobody is advocating for "anything goes." Some guidelines around basic decency are fine if it applies equally to boys and girls.
Did they also have rules about noise levels? Like were other kids allowed to sing and shout at her while she took tests?
Yes they had rules. The distraction was from normal noise levels.
Who is promoting an "everything goes" attitude? Was the school proposing to have no dress code at all? What specific suggested change in the dress code is the issue here?
This whole "we can't let students come to class on their underwear" argument doesn't hold any water if the new rules wouldn't allow it either.
While they don’t specify the new rules, there are a few clues in the arguments made to defend it:
Except anything can be distracting and there's a certainly a reason why the school girl outfit has so many sexy versions and lingerie. School uniforms are a terrible idea for many reasons. You generally can't buy then second hand, low income families now need two sets of clothing for their kids, and it is possible to buy "higher quality" ones from places like Macy's.
Obviously the schools should provide them.
On the other hand if there’s enough open market that you can buy them at Macy’s, there’s no reason you’d be any less able to buy second-hand uniforms than any other clothing.
So the options are:
The only failure mode then is when you have to buy them from the school, at which point poor families are more put upon … assuming the uniforms are more expensive than other clothes. But it’s the same with textbooks, sports equipment, etc.
What do you think would be a sensible dress code? Or would you say that all dress codes are bad?
I'm just curious. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other.
You’re being downvoted because questions that might lead to a person changing their mind, if they honestly engaged with the question, are considered mind tricks by some people.
“Oh the earth is flat? Why do you suppose you’ve never seen a picture of the edge then?”
“Your jedi mind tricks won’t work on me!”
I tell you what would REALLY help me not get distracted at school, if the girls had to wear burqas.
Then us fellas don't need to worry about learning self control or mental discipline. It's win win! By which I mean, two wins for men.
If burkas were worn by everyone they’d be way less of an issue.
I only agree with you because I could stare at the ass of a girl I used to have in my class all day. And I know for a fact I wasn't the only one.
Uffff but yhe that's still my fault and my bad, I shouldn't be asking her to wear more clothes so I can focus
A uniform doesn't stop that through, someone who is distracted by girls will continue to be distracted by girls no matter what they are wearing. Same goes for the other way around.
And you failed as a result?
If so, or if not, was that due to the ass or you?
Naaah I'm fine homie I'm in uni rn, but still deam that was an ass
Right on man. Yeah most folks get a little distracted but keep it together.
For me, History class, the prettiest girl in the school and one of the sweetest. Green eyes like emeralds. Could've just started at her all day but she sat behind in the row over so it would've been kinda obvious lol. Also I wanted to pass lol. I still remember her from time to time.
Best wishes in school.
I went to a public high school where boys had to wear long pants all year round. We didn't have air conditioners. Meanwhile girls would wear skirts.
So stop woth the sexism.
Public schools should just have uniforms of a polo shirt and slacks , shorts or knee high skirts and that is it.
It will help also woth poor kids not having to be made fun of when some people come in with Gucci purses amd expensive shit.
Sounds like the dress code hurts boys as well. The solution is still to reform.
I've heard of male students wearing skirts in protest and that normally works with the Puritan school administrators.
Yes we wore kilts to protest and the. A few years later they did the same thing woth walk outside and. A heat wave putting finals in a 100 degree weather and they changed it.
Uniforms is what works. It prevents bullying
I'm having a hard time parsing out your liberal interpretation of grammar.
So does actually enforcing anti-bullying laws, but that would take effort by the teachers.
Yes and teacher effort is a limited resource which is why these rules should be considered based on their simplicity. A dress code is simpler than anti-bullying rules to enforce.
Children and teenagers can't be watched 24/7 and with larger class sizes it's very hard to catch all bullying.
But you already know thay.
I've had it happen repeatedly in plain view of the teacher during class. But I guess you never experienced that. Must be nice.
You shouldn't assume what others have gone through. You just look like an ass when you do
Who purchases the uniforms? You mentioned impoverished kids being made fun of, but the parents have to buy the expensive, overinflated uniforms as well. Wouldn't that put more strain on less well off families, having to buy specific clothes for their child's attendance, each year for each child?
No. It was just single colored shirt and pants. We got wal mart shirts for the dress code. They'll still fuck with you for your shoes.
Yeah, kids will bully other kids no matter what. It doesn't matter what the rules allow to be worn.
Well I guess we won’t know for sure until we see some data.
The parents do. We have to purchase school supplies and get nickeled and dimed for PTO stuff and field trips plus the school lunches.
Imagine if we expected soldiers to buy their rifle, pay for their meals, pay for their uniforms, imagine the outcry about troop readiness. Why do we tolerate it with education?
Crazily enough we do to some extent. They issue you a bunch of stuff in boot camp. It comes out of your pay.
It's sorta the same but not, the government knows the money is there they are just doing funny accounting. When the school sends me a notice that one of my kids needs something they have no idea what my financial situation is. This matters. Soldiers can concentrate on learning how to do their thing, students are distracted by demands to figure out how to buy something.
I'm generally not in favor of uniforms, but this argument really goes both ways: who purchases (potentially very expensive brand) clothes in a school setting where the expectation is that kids constantly wear nice, new clothes to school? Even assuming that bullying or mobbing based on clothes isn't an issue, the cost to keep buying outfits could easily be higher than the cost of uniforms.
That said, I've known problematic settings only by proxy. At my school, nobody gave a fuck about what students were wearing, there was no dress code, and I would have absolutely hated being forced to wear a uniform.
I disagree completely. Uniforms have been proven to not help with anything they claim to. For one, they generally can't be bought second hand.
Dude if you’re a parent with a friend group of other parents in your school district, there will absolutely be hand-me-downs going all over the damn place.
My kids have so many clothes that they’ve never worn because we just keep passing clothes around, between their friends and cousins, everyone is growing so fast, it’s foolish to be spending a ton of money on brand new clothes unless we need something for a specific special occasion.
I’m sure school uniforms, as long as they are consistent, would be swapped around. I’m sure there would be parent groups forming on Nextdoor and Facebook to swap clothes. And I’m sure they would show up at the thrift stores.
Secondhand uniforms would not be a problem.
But honestly the most important part is that schools don’t treat it as a fundraiser. They should be able to buy in bulk and coordinate with neighboring districts on selection to maximize discounts, and sell at slightly above cost in order to offset free/reduced cost outfits for low income families.
In other words, in theory, it should be less expensive to dress your kids in school uniform.
Personally I think uniforms solve a lot more problems than they cause. They sacrifice a bit of self-expression (at least the older kids, who mostly dress and style themselves), but at the same time, it takes a big hit out of financial inequality bullying. Combined with universal lunch programs it basically destroys it.
That in itself is worth it. Kids getting bullied (or feeling empowered, for that matter) for things 100% out of their control (like the caste they’re born into) shouldn’t be a thing.
Fine you have convinced me. I expect you to send meoney to pay for my kids uniform. Money order or cash since you don't seem like a person of your word.
I’m sorry what evidence have you seen this person isn’t true to their word?
Their lying.
Private schools have used uniform sales, buying second hand is not a problem.
Private schools are not public schools. Impoverished cannot afford private schools. And Uniforms are not interchangeable.
Hey here is an idea. School uniform companies should make it so they have to change it every year like textbook makers do. All it will take to convince the school is telling them that the old uniforms were end-of-lifed and a campaign donation to the school board reps. Parents will be offered a 5% discount if they mail back their old clothing. The clothing will interlock together so you can't mix last year's shirt with this year's pants without it being super noticeable. Which will kill the secondary market.
CaaS, clothing as a service. You will own nothing and be happy.
Brb getting turtleneck on, because I am a visionary now.
You. I like you.
Here have some stock in my 80 billion dollar startup. We haven't made any money yet but we have plenty of venture capital.
What do you think about data mining our customers and selling that information?
enshitfication is speedy now a days
Should I already prepare my announcement to do damage control after we broke a feature our customers liked?
I think we should just purposely break the website so they can’t give feedback or make it as annoying as possible. Let them waste hours on a website trying to give feedback on a loop of where their login fails and their profile continues to disappear until they give up. Or you could just remove the ability to give feedback altogether. And put a contact number on the website that puts them on hold indefinitely. That’s what I hear the cool kids are doing.
Ed choice has enabled many kids to attend private schools, tutition is actually less than the cost per pupil that that public schools cost.
Wtf is Ed choice. Oh. another ‘only American’/scholarship-rewarding-elites thing again. You’re using ‘many’ very liberally.
A way to divert money from public sector to scumbags in private sector who won't follow any of the government regulations or take underperforming students.
Private schools can fire someone for being LGBT, public schools can't. Private schools can share private medical information with parents (like being LGBT) or seeking birth control, public can't except under very regulated conditions. Private schools can get out of teaching evolution and sex ed, public schools can't. The list goes on and on. Public funding of private schools breaks a century of progress. We are going to see a brave new world with football couches and school admins making millions while teachers are making daycare worker salaries teaching from books based on a prot understanding of the bible.
What you said sounded wrong, so I asked the AI about it. I know the AI is wrong sometimes, but doesn’t this seem more like the truth than what you said about private schools firing people for being LGBT?
Religious schools do not have to conform with non-discrimination laws.
If you are going to a private school, it's kinda implied money isn't a huge issue anyways. Your parents are paying for you to attend this exclusive school, after all.
But you can't take Johnson Academy's uniform to Brentwood. So, if Brentwood isn't having a sale, what then?
Ed choice has enabled many kids to attend private schools.
Kids grow and their uniforms don't fit, giving them to the school to resell as a fundraiser or giving them directly to other students is common. On top of that most private schools do not have embroidered cressents on their uniforms so they can be used interchangeably. Private schools are different than what you see on TV.
Citation needed that every private school on earth has one
You need a source that every private school has kids that grow out of their uniforms?
Yes clearly that is exactly what I fucking asked about since it has 0% to do with the claim you made. That makes so so much sense.
Really putting that private school education to work today.
I'm going to need you to put your big boy thinking cap on for a second. What do you think happens to uniforms that kids grow out of?
And I want a fucking citation that every single private school on earth has a second hand shop affiliated with it.
Guess critical thinking isn't taught at private school
If you understood critical thinking at all you would know what you are asking for is impossible. What I'm trying to figure out is if you are too dumb to know that, too dumb to realize your gotcha is not one, or both.
Let's look at my statement "private schools have used uniform sales". The question
youan intelligent person would ask is at what point does the number of schools that do not have used uniform sales invalidate that statement. Not even the biggest mouth breather would claim that only one school that does not offer a used uniform sale invalidates the statement, they would be adept enough to notice that the word all is missing.Sorry your claim is difficult to support. You can hang out with the aliens and lock ness people now
If you were more than barely literate you be able to comprehend what I wrote.
I'm sorry why is your solution "make the poors pay for something else."
Poor kids still need clothes. But if you have a uniform you only need a few shirts and pants and they are all the same so no.one will know if you only have three sets of the uniform.
If you need to wear a different outfit every day to.school you would need at least five completely different outfits and to be oerfectly honest at least 10 so you wouldn't repeat often enough for people to notice younare wearing the same outfits all the time.
Uniforms actually reduce costs for.poor students and reduce bullying.
But of course run your mouth with nonsense cause it sounds smart.
I was one of those poor kids, so I remember being price gouged every year when I no longer fit my clothing. I also remember switching to a school that didn't, and suddenly it was less expensive because, unlike your implication, I didn't run around naked outside of my uniform when not in school, and wore the same clothing in and out. I also remember doing research and citing sources for my claims, which you seem to be short on. Maybe it's because you're not wearing your uniform right now? Can you provide a source for any of your claims?
not agreeing. i would want to wear my clothes. just casual, nothing gucci or else. the school should offer uniforms but without forcing studemts to wear it. something like an advertisement.
The whole point of removing the choice is to remove the signals that the choices send. Making the uniform an option goes against the definition of “uniform”.
One option. Everyone the same. That’s what “uniform” means.
Yeah this is all wrong
It won't be clothing can just get at Walmart, is practical, and comfortable. It will be polyester Landsend shit that is too expensive, rips easily, takes weeks to get there, and feels like steel wool on your skin. Meanwhile teachers and admins will continue to wear what they want.
It won't promote equality since the poor kids will just have ripped up stuff and the rich kids will load up on the accessories
Fucking deal with it. You should be able to handle not having the best clothing in life. I did.
My school tried a uniform for a few years and I have never once forgave them for that. I won't allow my kids to be punished the same way. Also someone found their old uniform in the attic many years later, shredded it with a knife, and mailed it to their former principal with a note that told them that's what I think of your messed up uniform policy you forced on us.
Your point 2 is essentially “It won’t promote equality since [it won’t be enforced]”
Not at all.
You aren't well informed and just are going off your own personal experience.
I worked for a school district that implemented school uniforms after a kid attempted suicide for bullying.
The dress code required polo shirts from multiple companies including target, Walmart, Costco house brands and slacks or black jeans with no rips. Bullying drastically dropped across schools in the district (there were 9 schools)
The kids name? Albert Einstein. And everyone clapped.
It would be Alberta since either was a female. But good try.
You're getting down voted but as someone who had exactly 3 shirts and 2 pair of shorts in high school, I would have vastly preferred a uniform mandate. My mom had enough money she just didn't see extra clothes as a necessary expense for her. She would have been forced to get the uniforms and I would have had an easier time in high school.
People are also saying that's an unnecessary expense for the poor people, but why can the school afford the building, the teachers, administration, etc, but not 5 pairs of clothes for the students? Maybe even for need based students?
Even in public schools, parents have to pay for the gym uniform. Books too.
I have not paid a cent for either and my kids attend public
From the article:
As a dad, that’s very concerned about my children ....I may disagree with it, but his kids aren't mine, so he, as the parent, he can prevent his daughters from owning that offending clothing.
...as well as everyone else’s kids in the district,And here's where it goes off the rails. Why don't you keep your own parenting in your house instead of your neighbor's house, eh? Are you also going to decide what books other parent's kids read? How about what religious beliefs (if any) other parent's kids follow? None of that is your business. If other parents are okay with their kids dressing that way you shouldn't get a say on that.
Sadly, there are plenty of people trying to dictate what other people's children read based on their own feelings
They'll indoctrinate other people's children into their religion too, if they get the chance.
Yeah my girlfriend’s kids get crap for being atheists from Christian classmates who were clearly taught to act that way by their parents
Yes they most likely will. Because Christians are commanded to do so by their religious text which furthermore makes it pretty clear that not doing so is a Bad Thing™ (not damnable but God will be displeased). So the more fundamentalist denominations take this literally and proselytize all over. However, the case for Christians forcing their morals and worldview on literally everyone is, I think, far weaker.
I thought Bible commanded everyone to love thy neighbour and everything
Yes. And in those culty spaces, they redefine love. It's a brainwashing technique.
but not those neighbors
Maybe focus on parenting your own child instead of everyone's.
Also does this guy have a humiliation fetish?
Lunatic pulls stupid stunt to get his way, policy voted affirmative regardless.
Because kids interact with each other at school. The whole point of rules is to affect social interaction, to shape how people’s behavior is able to affect others.
A parent choosing to use public schools doesn't get 100% control over what their child is exposed to. That "kids interact with others at school" is the point where the parents teaching in their child needs to hold up when the parent isn't there. I would think that is a large part of raising children. A parent knows as some point in the future their child will be an adult, and out of the control of the parents. Interaction with other kids at public schools is where that first is encountered.
If a parent demands 100% control of the children 24/7/365, then the choice is home schooling, and hopefully the child can afford good therapists when they are an adult to undo that damage.
Ever heard of peer pressure in high school? Sure you can tell your own kids to wear proper clothing. But if she has friends walking around in beach clothing and she's not, she's gonna be left out.
Board just has to state: wear what you want but see to it that it at least goes to the top of your knees and it covers your ribs.
You're arguing a different issue. Remove any midriff elements from the conversation and you could be talking about the latest designer shoes or brand of jeans. So midriff specifically is immaterial to that argument. If you want an environment of uniform dress, then you're arguing for school uniforms. Arguments pro and con of school uniforms are outside of the scope of this discussion.
And then we get back to the problem that the Board is trying to get away from which is educators being forced to become "fashion police". There's been historical problems with that including selective enforcement. The actions the Board are taking are specifically to let educators be educators.
Shouldn't the parents be watching what their kids wear if they are worried about? A basic dress code is all that is needed. Just like the board said its a waste of time to measure girls skirts. Maybe if we didn't taboo the body so much people wouldn't care what someone else is wearing.
Hahahaha my parents “watched my clothing” so I either had extra clothes in my bag that I’d change into, or I’d wear them under a top layer of “approved” clothing and take it off later.
Parent, here. My kids wear whatever the hell they want, and because I'm not giving them any reason to rebel, they don't feel any urge to do that kind of thing.
And if they did for fun or something? I wouldn't give a shit.
I agree I changed my clothes too sometimes in high school. But still a basic dress code would cover the more extreme outfit. But when it comes to a skirt being a slightly short I don't think its worth the school time to check.
Agreed. We all have bodies. Underwear is appropriate for shared spaces (most people dont want to sit on anyone else's ass juice) but aside from that this prudishness of the human form that many people have is silly to me.
Even if the dad DID walk around like that, I think that's his business. We should all be allowed to wear what we want (undies for sanitary reasons) and if something is offensive then people could just, you know, not look!
Come on man. Keep your hands off of my assless chaps!
Ok, but only if you promise to wear a buttplug and use a towel
I was not expecting this level of common sense from an Arizona school board. Good on them.
Small government conservatives: "get the government and all its "rules" out of our lives!"
School board: "you're right, each family should decide what schoolwear is appropriate and I guess people will have to manage themselves and their own reputation.."
Small government conservatives: "no not like that!"
Gilbert, AZ also has an incredibly high Mormon population. The Mormon churches (or whatever they call the smaller satellite buildings that aren't temples) are like Starbucks, one on nearly every corner. This must not be one of their school boards.
To be fair though, it's also a very safe, clean, and well maintained suburb. Probably the overall best family friendly city in the entire Phoenix metro.
They're called a chapel building or chapels, of which 2-4 congregations (named wards) share. And then a collection of wards are organized into a stake, and they share a bigger building named a stake center for periodic meetings and events together.
And just a heads up, the current "Mormon" prophet has decreed that the moniker "Mormon" has fallen out of favor, and instead should be called "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", the full name (there's some shorter names in that link). So if you see people down voting you, it's probably due to that.
So it's not longer the "Mormon prophet", it's the "the prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". And it's no longer "he's a Mormon", it's "he's a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". And it's no longer the "Mormon missionaries", it's "a missionary of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".
I think that's silly, and I believe once there's a new prophet again, the word "Mormon" will be ok. But I guess time will tell!
Fuck any of the assholes downvoting you, that was a good response, and thanks. I knew they were called something else, but I couldn't remember what.
As far the LDS vs Mormon, I'm aware, but unfortunately the Missionaries don't come to my house anymore to talk about the prophet, or anything else. They used to come, like alot, like all the time, it was kinda odd. But when I started providing them copies of Letter to a CES Director, well, they havent been back in years.
I actually find myself siding with the board here, if only because I have heard all too often about dress codes being overly restrictive or overly enforced. Like the board said, they don't want teachers wasting time measuring a girl's shirt when they should be teaching.
If only any of these parents cared about supporting teachers and their kids actually learning.
also, none of the traumatic things that happened to me in my adolescence were based around the clothes any of us were wearing.
Sometimes my daughter wants to go to school in something too revealing.
We tell her to change because we're her parents and that's called parenting. We don't need the school to tell her what to wear.
Nobody's concerned with what their own children are wearing. They're concerned that they might be exposed to abdomen skin (the horror!) because of what someone else's child is wearing.
His argument is that he looks like a fool dressed like that, so everyone who dresses like that looks like a fool? Weird thinking.
his argument is the new dresscode would allow young girls to dress like that and he thinks the school should police it, instead of just raising his kids to be well adjusted and responsible. or it makes his pp hard and it makes it harder to hide that he's a pedo when he's in public
The goal of people pushing agendas like this is the elimination of public education and state support for religious schools via “charter schools”. A lot of the people who run for school board who push parents rights are religious fundamentalists, real estate developers, or charter school consultants. This is at least true where I live.
Kind of tangential but towards the end of HS we had this ongoing trend of wearing costumes to school every wednesday. Some of the class participated more often than others, some (including me) barely participated at all.
There was one week where everyone was determined to participate though, because we had planned for boys to go dressed as girls and vice-versa. I still didn't really care to join them but some friends of mine said they'd lend me some of their clothes and makeup so I'd have no excuse to not participate.
What I didn't anticipate is that they'd dress me up just like the guy in the pic, only difference being that I'm underweight, not overweight. Still looked like a fool though, but that was part of the fun, not some pseudo political statement.
Anyways, tangent over.
I thought this was going to turn into an egg_irl comment
Boys and girls used to cross dress for fun without it having to be a statement
The statement was "look at how funny it is to wear clothes of the wrong gender. Isn't it hilarious that a woman could be wearing pants?! Hahahaha"
Yeah. No thanks
I hope you find some mental peace some day. It must be exhausting to have so many sticks up your butt.
So you're saying in the 90s, the "let's all crossdress at school" was all about normalizing clothing regardless of gender, being inclusive of people's gender and clothing choices, and and destigmatizing gender non confirming people? It wasn't because the idea of a boy in a skirt was a concept that should me mocked and thought of as a joke?
It could easily be neither of those things. Most things are neither of those things.
It was simply a fun tradition. Some people were assholes about it that way, sure, and some people were excited they could finally girlmode or boymode in public for a day, but for most of us, we were just excited for drag day or whatever we called it back then because it was a fun communal activity. Festival atmosphere. We'd plan group outfits with our besties and whatnot. It was great.
Something awakened in that dad that night. You can see it in his eyes he enjoyed the voyeurism. Since the meeting he's been seen working alleys and freeway off ramps for tips.
My high school and middle school would have spirit weeks and such where every day is a different theme. They just couldn't have pajama day because apparently "some people would take it too far"
Oh, he's a never-nude too! I didn't see him at the convention last year in Berlin. There were literally dozens of us there. Dozens!
Real big get back in the kitchen energy from this guy. He probably needs the kids more covered up because he can't control himself around too much exposed teenage girl skin.
From the headline I thought he was protesting in the other direction… get back in the kitchen energy is a great way to phrase his stance.
I hope someone called the police. Someone stole that poor man's ass.
Hank Hill lookin mfer
Can't parents just talk to their children about how to dress?
I feel like that's a simpler solution and this way the school can focus on teaching.
My wifes a teacher, they do have to spend an absolutely mind boggling amount of time covering shit that really should be handled at home. Literally calling parents about their kids refusing to do any work and the parent saying "I dont know what you want me to do"
Just wanted to echo this as my experience too. It's unreal how many times my wife has to change her entire lesson plan for an entire grade because one parent wanted to complain about a non-issue while at the same time parents refuse to address real issues that disrupt not just their student but the learning experience of everyone else.
it's crazy that they're making a crop top and short shorts mandatory dress code for all students
Looking good dude! Slay king
We are like teenagers trying to break every single rule forgetting why they are in place .
I currently work in a school, and it can be very awkward walking up steps when students have incredibly short shorts, skirts, dresses, ect. The amount of underage skin (glutes, a little too much cleavage, and male nipples with loose tank tops) genuinely makes me feel uncomfortable and it's not like I'm trying to see anything. There is no one solution to make everybody happy, and I don't think uniforms are great or terrible, but I think it would always be better to air on the side of caution and establish standards/ dress codes. Almost every profession has standards and dress codes too, so I don't see what's wrong with trying to get students in the habit, at least in highschool when they start getting into the work field. Idk, disagree with me if you want, but I think this is reasonable.
Why can't we normalize open communication, instead of authoritarian nonsense. Rules systems are unnecessarily demeaning and oppressive. It should be perfectly normal for a teacher to say, "hey I feel a little bit uncomfortable about what you are wearing." The school staff should be held to a much higher standard than the students, where if they are excessive about their opinions it should be addressed long before students. IMO the biggest problem in schools is a lack of reason and respect for students as real people.
I will also say, when I worked at a highschool a few years ago (I'm now middle school) a male teacher did pipe up about a student whose skirt was so short that he could see their underwear and buttocks and the parents called him a pedophile for trying to, "Look at their daughter," however, he only complained because he was uncomfortable. A pedophile probably wouldn't have said anything. Like I said, I don't think there is going to be any one size solution. It's pretty annoying. I do agree, school staff should be held to a high standard, but just in general. Teaching is a profession and we should present ourselves as professionals. I'm sorry if your experience with schools made you feel like teachers don't care about students as real people. In my experience, being on staff at the district I went to, all the teachers I work with spent years in school learning how to help because they genuinely care for the kids.
If the dress code is gonna be a problem, just make everyone wear a school uniform and be done with it.
School uniforms are a waste of time.
I taught in a really low socio-economic area for a few years. The uniforms served 2 purposes:
This is what I don't trust will happen. Jostens or any number of other shitty companies will happily sell overpriced uniforms that cost hundreds of dollars and partner with school districts to ensure a captive market to pay their insane markups
Not only that, but it can help to minimize prejudice by both students and staff with regard to students' socioeconomic status.
No it doesn't. You can easily tell which dtufent have the nice, new uniforms and which have the ill fitting hand-me-downs. Besides, status is not just conveyed by clothing. It's also accessories, phones, etc.
"Help to minimize," not "eliminate."
Two approved colors, red and blue, are generally gang colors.
No, they're not. You generally can't buy then second hand. I've never seen uniforms at a resale store.
Huh? Second hand uniform sales are massive in the UK. Every school has one. Maybe not in the states? Don't know why..
It was definitely a thing where I worked in Los Angeles county.
Both of those points do not match the experience I had.
You should workshop your standup in person probably
Huh?
It can't be that slow of a news day in... oh. Fox. A local Fox station. Of course they'd want to take antics like this from Arizona and put them on the news in Oregon where they're definitely relevant. Bullshit like this is why you can't believe the folk who claim these local fox affiliates are unbiased.
Every local TV News station is likely to be conservative, no matter which broadcaster they are affiliated with. Sinclair, Hearst, Scripps, etc, they are all right wing, even by American standards.
I don’t know about you degenerates but my heart and mind is changed. Thank you, Fupapa.
And what state is this in?
One where they're banning books and critical race theory even if critical race theory is a college course?
He was against letting girls show their bellies because it would 'distract the boys' or some other bullshit that goes right along with the book burning.
The freedom with which adult men will voluntarily say they think that 12yr old over there is too sexy for anyone to get any work done. The implication that they're just physically unable to police themselves in the presence of an uncovered elbow and need outside help. If thy right eye offend thee.
Denial. Seriously tho it's in Arizona where the typical summer temp is around 165f
Yes, police what my children are wearing for me. Maybe the extra clothes will stop the bullets.
Oh yeah, there's always that. America's so fucking scary man...
Too many commenters here think dress codes are all about "boys have no self control so girls should suffer".
"“The fact that we have adults advocating for children to have less clothing on is absurd to me,” she said."
But they're not? They're advocating for children to not be forced to wear as much clothing, which isn't quite the same.
Companies have dress codes. Is it too much for kids to have a predictable leveling environment where the most important thing is learning? Once they're grown up, "Katy" not being able to wear a bikini on the office floor, or Todd not being able to wear his gym tank top on the hotel front desk becomes obvious. So why is restricting that at school not ok?
Three points: 1) school is not a job, 2) dress codes are rarely enforced evenly (girls are usually overpoliced; non-whites as well), and 3) school staff worrying about how students are dressed rather than something relevant to learning is a distraction.
Kids go to school to learn tho, is it not reasonable to expect it to be free from sexual distractions, especially for teenagers? It’s harder to learn in environments like that, just like it’s hard to work a professional job.
I believe that companies shouldn't have dress codes either. Clothing is not indicative of the ability to perform the task required. Clothing is also overly sexualized, the argument is always "woman shouldn't wear a bikini", but that's a product of the over sexualization of women. When a woman showing skin is viewed in a sexual manner, all clothes that show skin are problematic.
It's been said before but also many school dress codes, especially hair codes are overtly racist.
Because we do something wrong in one area in life we must do something wrong in all areas of life?
You are right companies have dress codes. And they are almost never for work that needs it.
Dress code is a great idea and is a way to set standards.
People need to have more respect for themselves and for society.
But we just going down a pit of degradation so happy my country still has some self respect with shirts and ties.
Shirts and ties? How bourgeois. In MY country we still wear ceremonial full plate mail armor.
Lot of pedos in the comments.
I agree with your words but I suspect I don't agree with your motivation.
You really do have to wonder about people who are obsessed with having children dress in a certain way. I don't notice or care how my kids or their friends dress.