‘Pure greed:’ Etiquette expert explains why tipping has gotten out of control
Perhaps you’ve noticed. We have reached a tipping point in the country over tipping.
To tip or not to tip has led to Shakespearean soliloquies by customers explaining why they refuse to tip for certain things.
During the height of the COVID-19 pandemic, customers were grateful for those who seemingly risked their safety so we could get groceries, order dinner or anything that made our lives feel normal. A nice tip was the least we could do to show gratitude.
But now that we are out about and back to normal, the custom of tipping for just about everything has somehow remained; and customers are upset.
A new study from Pew Research shows most American adults say tipping is expected in more places than it was five years ago, and there’s no real consensus about how tipping should work.
Tipping needs to end. It's the employer's responsibility to make sure their employees are paid reasonably. Instead they pass that responsibility to the customer, ensuring tension between customers and staff.
It's almost like the profit motive is corrosive and requires stringent safeguards else it'll corrupt and destroy everything... for profit!
I used to be a consistent tipper.
Now I refused to tip at all.
I want workers to demand what they are worth to their employers, and I'm willing to be the asshole to help them accomplish that.
If we all stopped tipping, they'd have no choice but to turn the low wage issue around onto their employers. Then employers will have no choice but the pay their workers more, because otherwise they'd leave their industry for something else.
I don't care if that means we, as consumers, have to pay a bit more for the food and service. I don't care if that means that some businesses won't survive. I want fairness all around
I refuse to tip anywhere new and expand this practice... But with things like restaurants or delivery? Without organization, all that does is further underpay people for their work and increase the chances of spitting in your food
I don't think there's a good answer, so I just do it much less
As far as delivery, if I'm charged a delivery fee "because reasons", that's the extra money that is my tip. If they're asking for a tip as well, then no.
But instead of just not tipping, I just don't get delivery, which I haven't since the pandemic. Two or three experiences where I was trying to order and all the add on fees plus tips meant that dinner for one was going to cost over $45 and dinner for two, over $60 (when the entrees themselves were like $12-15) and basically that was enough to convince me not to do it.
At one place there was a delivery fee, a delivery service fee, a "take out packaging" fee, a service fee, a charge for ordering less than $25, a driver fee (which they were quick to tell me was not a tip)...and of course still asked for a tip, with the options being 20, 22, and 25%. Even choosing the lowest tip, my single meal was going to cost $46 for food that I could walk in, sit down, order, eat, tip, and leave...all for under $25.
Basically I just don't get delivery now, and while I know that won't break the system, maybe if enough people join me it will.
I used to think that way as well. But really, if spit in my food is being used as a threat to tip someone isn't that extortion?
I'm polite, easy to serve, and even if the food is over-cooked and way too salty (as it was for the single taco I ordered last time I was out) I don't ask for it to be returned. I'm a model customer, except I won't tip.
I'm not doing it to be cheap, or out of spite, or in disrespect for the service personnel. I'm doing it to apply pressure so that things will change for the better
Think of it as passive guerilla tactics against a broken system
But what about the inherent coercion of capitalism? The fear of having your food spit in is a kind of coercion, but despite the system being broken, people who rely on tips need that money to survive
It's a messy issue. If everyone refused to tip as a matter of course and they were paid a living wage I think things would be improved, but on a more immediate and direct level you're reducing their pay
It's a systematic problem... Maybe it can be handled individually, but that will create a lot of issues until the pressure of individuals can prompt systematic change
I would rather they felt the pressure to move on to different employment (if they can find it) than deal with the uncertainty and fickle nature of tippers
Where I live some restaurants have started requesting no tips because they pay their workers what they're worth. If those are around when I go out, I go there. In their absence I don't tip
Other countries of the world have it figured out, why can't the U.S? We can be better. Sometimes you have to take a hard stand that feels counter-intuitive to the causes you believe in, in order to push things in the right direction. Do I feel bad about not tipping? Certainly. But I want change for the better and that requires applying pressure to the right places
I'm not ideologically opposed to what you're saying - I agree with the end goal, I'm just worried about methods. I'm even fine with tipped employees suffering for a bit during transition
But changing jobs is purposely difficult...I don't think that's a fair demand through effectively reducing their wages
On the other hand, you brought up something great - if you have places around that have transitioned to a living wage, why not push to go there instead? Restaurants can make this change in a couple weeks if properly motivated, but it would take months of employees struggling until they leave to affect that level of change, and I'd argue a restaurant is more likely to look around and adopt a better business model when their customers dry up than to realize the reason they can't keep staff is due to tipping expectations
I'm all for your strategy to pressure the holdouts once the tides have turned in an area, and maybe your area is at that stage... But I don't think most of the country is nearly there yet
For sure. It's just that the last time I was out I wasn't able to do that. (An old employer had asked me to help out for the day on short notice, and I was on foot because driving/parking in the area is an expensive nightmare and there wasn't enough time to take a bus)
Frankly I'd rather make food at home. I'm a decent cook and don't have to be concerned with morality at all :)
Haha. Rosy. Rosy pink.
Mr. Pink.
Cute :)
You remind me of Taco Bell, you smell good but you’re going to destroy my asshole later ;-)
Been in Japan this summer. A culture where tipping is non-existent. It was such a great experience to not worry about tipping. Instead you simply get outstanding service all the time and workers are simply paid a fair wage.
There's nothing wrong with tipping. I like the option to reward someone who made my experience great. Keyword there is option. Employers should pay employees a living wage, and if customers want to reward a great job with a few bucks on top of that, that should be allowed, even encouraged, but should never feel obligated to tip or shamed for not tipping.
You should feel ashamed for making someone act as your slave for minimum wage. The least you could do is pay them what they're worth.
If you don't like it, don't force tipped workers to work for you. You have full control here. You could just cook your own damn food.
I said living wage, homie, not minimum wage. I think everyone should be paid at least a living wage, I just said tipping in general isn't bad - it just shouldn't be used to supplement poor wages.
Okay, but they don't have a living wage, so you don't get to have that option. Either tip or stop using those services.
What fucking conversation do you think you're a part of? Because you're clearly not reading my comments before responding to them.
You said customers should never feel obligated or ashamed. Never. I definitely feel ashamed of using these services and feel obligated to tip generously, and you should too.
You're either intentionally being obtuse or are just plain stupid. Customers SHOULDNT be in a position of being forced to tip or be ashamed for normal acitivitues. Absolutely required tipping should not be a thing. It should be optional. It doesn't matter what the current culture is, because that's not the conversation. That's the point.
But they are in a position of being ashamed because those workers need tips. Shoulda woulda coulda, I don't like it when people decide to not tip as some kind of political protest against tipping.
Reading comprehension was never your strong suit huh? Either that or you failed in debate class. You have the worst debate tactics I've seen in a long time.
I'm just a stupid piece of shit and should kill myself. Tell me more about how I'm a failure and I don't know how to read. Unf I'm almost there~
Chill, please, you definitely shouldn't kill yourself. Ain't big deal if someone in the internet is wrong
You said it, not me
Please learn how to have an actual conversation without the pity party
Let's never talk about changing anything because it's not the current climate then, yeah? There's no point in discussing change at all, clearly, since it doesn't apply to specifically exactly what's currently going on. Truly you are a paragon of our time
Refusing to tip will not change anything.
So we're in agreement then? Why are you lighting me up when we're clearly on the same side? You need to learn to recognize an ally and save the anger for someone who deserves it, or you'll find yourself without any allies.
I don't know if we are, actually.
Do you still use these services? And if you do, do you tip?
Yes, I go to restaurants every so often, and I always tip and tip well. I refuse to punish the workers for the broken system. That doesn't degrade my argument that they should be paid a living wage instead of having to rely on tips at all.
When I say customers should not feel ashamed or obligated to tip, I mean that the system should change in such a way that tips are not expected and workers are paid a living wage. The system is not currently like that, we get that. Snapping back at me over the way the system IS when we both agree on how it should be is being intentionally argumentative for no reason.
Then we are in agreement. I read your comment as unconditional i.e. customers should never be pressured to tip, regardless of the wages of the worker.
lol no.
Pretty sure you're not responding to the employer
The customer creates the demand.
I went to a brewery recently where they swipe your card at the entrance and hand you a little black credit card type thing. You find your own seats, you go grab a glass, and you insert the card into a slot at a beer tap and pour your own beer, priced by the ounce. If you want food, you go to a kiosk, put your card in, and order food. When it's ready, you go to the kitchen and pick it up to bring back to your seat. When you leave, you bring the card back up to the register and they charge you for all the food and drink. But then it asks you how much you wanna tip. Who the fuck am I tipping? I was my own host, my own bartender, my own waiter, my own bus boy. I haven't seen an actual employee here except for some woman who swiped my credit card during a 5 second interaction.
... so you tipped $0, right? Don't leave us hanging!
I tipped $0
Since it was at a brewery he should've tipped $0 anyway
I always thought it was $1/drink (obviously when they serve it to you)
For easy drinks (beer, wine, or simple liquor/ soda mixes), $1 is fine. If they have to bust out a tool like a muddler or peeler, you should probably give more than $1.
I went to a brewery like this as well. Pretty annoying to have to carry your own food out from the kitchen because they weren’t optimizing for take out. They had heavy plates and bowls. Also, feel like rather than sitting and relaxing I’m forced to get up and run around looking for condiments and silverware and water cups. Can’t make it all in one trip. Don’t quite feel like a guest. Then at the end you’re expected to bus your own table.
And yes, they wanted a full 20% tip, probably even 25% if I remember right.
Wtf is the point of this. Even if they wanted to save on labor costs of wait staff and everything why not just use your own card instead of trading it for a temporary card.
It's like this pizza place I went to recently. They had a little arcade so I went to put some quarters in and realized I had to go buy tokens at a machine first. It wasn't Dave and Busters or anything, just a hole in the wall with a few games in a corner. I didn't buy any tokens. Same with laundromats that now want you to buy tokens ahead of time.
There isn't a single business anymore that isn't trying to just blatantly scam you out of your money. They used to at least be more subtle about it.
it divorces the act of spending from actual money, so you spend more. like buying gems in a mobile game. also saves on credit card transaction fees.
That's among the reasons why I carry cash for small purchases.
It feels more real when I can see actual physical money going out of my wallet.
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You're comparing weeks of spending to a couple hours at a bar though, I'm not sure if that's really comparable.
There's a couple other reasons that apply as well:
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Instead of 7 small transactions (and higher fees) it’s one big transaction.
Because they get charged less by the bank for lower quantity of bigger transactions, instead of high number of small transactions. Also allows for people who have cash but no card to use the system.
They don't want to handle coins essentially. Going to the bank to exchange coins for cash every day is a huge part of the labor cost, so they make you use tokens that not only allows them to get rid of that but also essentially charge you seignorage.
Tipping was always stupid from day 1. I've spent most of my life being told I'm a moron for being against tipping culture and instead wanting fair wages and clear prices. Suddenly in recent years people realize how stupid tipping is simply cause it went to its logical extreme. People are morons.
People are morons but if you're from the states, which I'm guessing you are, there's a far more densely concentrated amount of morons.
I used to think that way as well, but extensive international travel has shown me the error of my ways; turns out that morons are pretty evenly distributed throughout the world.
Fair enough, my extensive international travel cemented it honestly.
There's plenty of other horrible tourists, I'd say the Brits are the worst in terms of young kids getting drunk and buck wild. But I'll never forget the guy from Illinois who had his concealed carry permit wrapped in gladwrap in his wallet in Thailand and he tried to fight me over his rights when I quizzed him on why you would ever bring your permit overseas as the mere question of why you'd bring the licence was enough to threaten his right to guns.
I don't think people are getting stupider, I think they're just more confident in their stupidity. People used to defer to experts when they didn't know something, but now they believe their opinion is as valid as any.
Oh it's far from it's logical extreme.
If you are for fair wages and clear prices, that means you're actively boycotting all restaurants right? You wouldn't be a hypocrite to still patronize these establishments that exploit their workers and expect you to cover the difference right?
I generally do not go to these kinds of places. When I do, I still tip, but I don't like it. But yes, I hardly ever partake in businesses that operate this way.
Every moron who doesn't tip thinks this way. Nobody wants to tip, and hopefully someday it will be universally abolished, but until then, this is the way it is and people are just trying to supplement their minimum wages to make a livable income. So just tip them appropriately for the work they do for you already, you moron. I guarantee that as a non-tipper, you are on many service workers' shit lists, so I guess if you're not getting good service, it's your own fault.
Tipping for a service is all well and good, but what about someone who is just running a register and the kiosk asks if you'd like to add a tip? Like restaurants when I am picking up an order. There was no service involved, yet I'm expected to tip the person who hands me the bag? I think not.
Also the arbitrary way we as a society have determined who does and doesn't deserve a tip. Hotel housekeeping? Customary to tip. Shuttle bus driver, not so much.
Why I always love to argue about this with people. It always devolves into "you tip for good service," and nobody understands my suggestion that service should always be good regardless.
So I always ask them, "why don't you tip your surgeon then? What if they do a bad job? Shouldn't you tip them to ensure they don't do a bad job?" And I never get good responses. "Well, they already get paid well and they CAN'T do a bad job." We arbitrarily tip some jobs and not others. And there are definitely low wage jobs out there which do far more important things to our everyday lives, but people don't SEE it so they stupidly don't make the connection and say "this doesn't make sense."
People also love to argue that prices will go up without tipping since people would need to be paid more since they don't get tips. Yet again, they are too stupid to realize their actual price includes the tips already. It's not going to be dramatically more. It also sometimes reveals that people generally don't give a shit about others, in that if we paid a little more so others can have livable wages, most won't go for that in reality.
These are probably the same morons who think they pay federal income taxes and talk about "muh tax dollars" and never understand their refund gave them all of it back plus some, equating to welfare.
FYI, I don't go to places that expect tipping. But thanks for presuming I don't tip at all.
Also, as a previous tip-based service worker, I know all this already. But again, thanks for presuming only YOU know things.
Hurrdurr things are bad but I can't fix them so I'll blindly accept them. If you don't, you're a bad person.
No, I think this goes to show that the whole idea that people will cry if prices are raised to increase wages is a lie. People who buy products and services want the people who are tasked with delivering those products and services to make a good living. They are willing to pay more in the form of tips; they will be willing to pay more in the form of prices. Just give people raises already ffs.
(And that's not to say that prices will actually increase all that much if wages increase because that's also mostly a lie told to protect corporate profit margins.)
Prices would raise, because they always raise to however much people are willing to pay for it. As long as people are tipping, they're voluntarily adding that instead of waiting for the market to correct for it. That said, you are also correct that prices are NOT the only place that businesses will go to protect their margin. If margins get too low to run a business due to labor, rents will have to decrease to keep businesses in the buildings. Similarly, if margins increase too much, landlords will increase the rent.
There's a faulty assumption in here that I was to call attention to: it's the it's that capitalist companies are charging less than the market will bear.
100% of the time, prices are as high as they can possibly be. There's no situation where a company says, "we could charge them $5, but let's charge them $4".
If we stopped tipping and people got raises, the balance would have to come from CEO salaries (etc) which is what they're really saying when they say they can't do it.
That said, for situations where tipping has become kind of expected but not required (eg baristas, who are paid minimum wage, but not eg waitstaff who are paid less than minimum wage), the expectation that prices have to go up to account for raised wages will raise "what the market will bear."
Maybe not for deliveries? Since everyone already thinks delivery fees are tips? Idk.
I never tip anywhere I'm just picking up food and paying at the register. It annoys me as a customer and I wish they would quit asking.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Leaving tip at the counter or for take out food is just incomprehensible to me. It's like tipping a grocery store clerk at check out when you are paying for your groceries. I bought this food already, what am I leaving a tip for?
I stopped going to Domino's because of this. I'm not tipping when I'm the one picking up the pizza.
Tipping should never be expected
I’ve stopped using tipped services entirely now. The only tipping I do is for a waiter at a sit down restaurant.
The mini mart under my building asks me to tip when all I’ve done is bring what I want to a counter. It’s infuriating because there’s no reason for it, it’s literally just there to guilt people into an extra few bucks.
This is my test, essentially, too.
To put more detail around my lines:
Order at counter and food brought to me may be 5-10% on the upper end
Order at table, food delivered to table - normal tipping rules
Everything else? Please stop asking and starting paying a living wage or as close as you can.
If I'm going to tip someone for taking my order, then it's either insulting to those who perform table service or the top tip % has to go up. I say people should get paid by their employer and let's end this tip thing.
You should tip gig workers too. They aren't getting even half of what you pay. Some rides/deliveries are literally 3 dollars without a tip.
I don’t use gig services because of the tipping. I’ve cut out any food delivery and don’t use Uber/Lyft. I’m not tipping on top of the +25% service charges those services add.
Lol, read that the other way at first. That's perfectly fine.
Ugh, gig workers need to be brought into some semblance of a minimum wage. Uber and Doordash are just techstortion.
I agree but just like restaurants please don't punish the drivers.
I just refuse to order off Uber Eats or Doordash. Does that count as not punishing the drivers?
Yeah. If the business model isn't viable then it will change.
Just don't use services that rely on exploiting the most vulnerable workers.
When you're hungry, learn how to cook pasta or something.
Nah I'll just curl up in a corner.
And again, why is that my problem?
Wow, this "etiquette expert" grift is more interesting than the article itself. https://www.valerieandcompany.com/
The Etiquette Expert... I'm an expert in these rules to this game I just made up!
I never tip these days. It's a band-aid solution that needs to end.
When tipping, either the customer is getting fucked or the employee; never the owner. I choose to fuckover the employee because they'd rather fuck me and lots of them support tipping culture saying "they make more in tips."
Well, good. You can "make more in tips" without me. I guess that way everyone literally wins.
While this is extreme, I understand why you would do this. I just call first and see if they require tip before I go. If they do, then I don't go.
Yes, tipping culture is wrong, but the doesn't make you some moral leader, or not a dick. You're just a sad little person who gets off on being a douchebag.
Yikes.
You’re part of the problem
Pizza Hut box: The delivery fee is not a tip to the driver.
Me: Then why TF am I paying it?
Gas and maintenance for the vehicle it was delivered in
That vehicle is owned and operated by the driver. The driver does not receive that delivery fee.
I don't deliver pizzas, but anytime I drive my own car for work I get reimbursed a standard rate set by the US federal government, updated each year. If a pizza place did that, then the delivery fee would cover that cost.
If the federal government is reimbursing the pizza hut delivery driver then the fee still isn't going to that cost. The American taxpayer is covering it
The government doesn't do the reimbursing, they just specify how much each mile is worth. I assume companies follow the government's guidelines on that for tax reasons.
Not always, Pizza Hut and Dominos have designated vehicles even in remote areas.
Saw one way upstate in NY, like, multilingual signage upstate.
Not how it is in my neck of the woods. It's for sure the driver's car at both of those.
I delivered pizza using my own car, and I was paid mileage. That's partially what the delivery fee is supposed to be for.
Like with every single thing that humans try to do to help each other, corporations have figured out how to exploit it for themselves.
We feel like tipping helps people because literally handing money to someone SHOULD help them. Except what actually happens is that corporations, with the full support of the government that they own, simply use that social convention to offset the wages that they have to pay their staff.
Reminder that tipping only exists because of racist and greedy motives, not because of people being nice. Sure, you could tip because you're nice, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but we were told to tip from the beginning to keep blacks underpaid in their shitty service industry roles. Tipping started at the top, not the bottom.
How can the US actually end tipping culture? I cannot fathom a way forward that doesn't fuck over a lot of people in the short-term. Ideas?
Why would it? That's not what's being suggested at all.
Well the most obvious reason is that tipping culture is robbing workers who it's supposed to help.
In my state, "tipped" positions' minimum wage is 2.12/hr. Despite the fact that tipping isn't guaranteed or mandatory. There are other "tipped" positions than waiters. How often do you tip the car hop at sonic that brings you your drink? They often make less than minimum wage. The dude making your sandwich at subway? Yeah, they deduct that guy's tips from his hourly.
Tell me why we shouldn't end a system that exploits the culture to get away with paying out poverty wages?
The biggest opponents of ending tipping are the bartenders and servers. There aren't many other jobs where they can make hundreds of dollars in a few hours on a busy night, and they would not give up that even when offered $30 an hour
I don't doubt that, and it would be fine if it were just servers. Now that tipping culture has spread, it's actively hurting people who the population at large doesn't feel like they should have to tip
Your understanding of minimum wage is incorrect - under the FLSA, if an employees tips do not bring their wages up to minimum, the employer must make up the difference. https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped/2020
Still horseshit though. If you can't pay employees a fair wage, you don't deserve to be in business, and it shouldn't be on the customer to subsidize your employees' shitty pay rate.
I realize that. The idea is that these employees make minimum wage no matter what you tip them. The only tipped position that routinely breaks that is a restaurant server.
Tipping everything was starting long before covid. It was introduced with new interact devices. I first saw it at subways in like 2015
Well yeah. Every one with a card reader realized they could enable the prompt. Whether or not tips actually go to the workers.
I went to tip a local burrito place with my card a couple months ago, and the lady said don't bother. She doesn't get any credit card tips.
Wage theft is huge.
If they don't they open themselves up to a massive lawsuit since there's a record of it, unlike cash tips which are often stolen by management
And yet wage theft remains the largest form of theft in America. Almost like the punishment isn't a deterrent.
I wonder how much Tax revenue is lost because tipping? When I worked for tips the only tips that got reported to the government was credit cards and I mainly got cash so I could see it being 12-13 thousand a year unreported and I wasn't making even close to other cute waitresses who were easily getting 3-4 times more than me a night and they didn't report cash tips either
Way less than is lost to tax avoidance by the ultra-rich, or indeed deliberate under-taxation of the ultra-rich. Enjoy your tips and don't feel bad about it.
I never felt bad about it, taxing poor people is the governments bread and butter so you would think they would want to end tipping so they could take ever single cent from poor people.
This assumes everyone working for tips is poor
It's not a zero sum game. We could be losing money to rich tax dodgers and also to tips.
(There's unlikely to be any tax losses anywhere near what we lose to tax dodging - but it's not a competition.)
That said - it's not the tippee's fault (yeah I'm going to call them tippees and there's nothing they can do about it). The employee (commonly referred to as a "tippee") isn't being paid a living wage, so the employer makes up the difference with tips. The tips aren't taxed (they're only taxed for waitstaff since their tips are a "part of the salary"), and don't go into the business owner's books - so they can ("truthfully") state that their business is successful at their current rate of pay, and there's no real record of the reality.
Only delivery and restaurants that bring your food to you and bartenders get tips. That's it. Fuck you subway I'm not tipping a sandwich artist. Fuck you Chinese buffet restaurant no tip I went and got up and got my own food.
Start being aggressive about it and I'll go 100% Mr. pink and nobody gets tips ever.
I've run into this and it's bullshit. No.
Also bullshit.
ETA: And this was a stupid article that was poorly written. The interview subject also had little insight. This wouldn't have been upvoted if the topic wasn't viscerally felt by USA citizens because there was nothing said.
I don't tip to pay their wages. I tip for good service. If you provide good service you get a tip. If your attitude sucks or your service sucks you don't get a tip. You want more? Then go above and beyond.
If the problem was outside of your control or impossible for you to correct or know even existed it won't affect the tip. I try to tip in cash.
This shit started to pop up in Europe. I only tip when the service was above average. And a tip is 5 bucks on top of a 100 CHF meal.
Now they ask for tips at food trucks. Yes 0 is the appropriate tip for that.
Hardly surprising it'd come to europe same time as the cost of living crisis.
Tipping has been prevalent in many Europeam countries for decades, though the amount is usually less than in the US.
Point probably still stands, the places in the US where service industry workers are the most openly hostile over any argument about tipping are places where the cost of living is the most out of pace with service worker incomes.
Wouldn't be hard to imagine it's similar across the pond.
Versus how is always worked before?
Because there is consensus on that, it was a very straightfor rule.
The tip was a private transaction between a customer and an employee who went above and beyond the service that the employees' boss require them to do, to perform the job to the customer's satisfaction.
It had nothing to do with the boss or the company they were working for (no tipping automation on the registers, etc.).
And it wasn't ever used in lieu of the employee receiving enough of an income at the company they worked at.
Unfortunately that is not true. Restaurants in most states in the US have a law that allows employers to pay tipped employees a much lower wage (about 2 bucks an hour) with the expectation that tips will bring them back up to minimum wage or higher.
Important to add that they're legally required to make up the difference if it comes in below minimum wage, though this is often skipped.
Nor is minimum wage a viable income.
You should check the year that those laws were implemented. They are a more recent phenomenon.
Also as it's been mentioned by someone else already, those laws included clauses to make sure if the tips were below minimum wage the employees income earned would be raised to minimum wage.
And as an aside (as I'm sure somebody will mention this), I'm not saying that minimum wage is a living wage.
But that is a different subject than the one that's being discussed here, the responsibility of customers to tip employees so that they may have a living wage, in lieu of employers paying employees a living wage directly.
I'm talking about the past, not the current situation.
The vast majority of people had living wages back then.
The article is saying "before" as in "before the changes that happened because of COVID". I don't know when the inflection point was where we shifted to shit wages for traditionally tipped jobs, but it was many many years ago. When COVID hit we were not giving living wages to servers.
No. Tipping culture 100% existed before COVID. This isn't an opinion. It's well documented. You are either willfully ignorant or a troll. This discourse has run its course.
"So shall it be written, so shall it be done." /waveshandsabout
There's only one thing I still do that requires tipping, and that's because I want to get tattoos. After I started seeing tipping screens at restaurants where I pick up my food at the counter, I stopped eating out entirely. I don't even do fast food. I'm tired of trying to remember or decipher what is socially expected and am just done participating in that system. Just pay people a living wage, charge what you need to charge for that, and if you're offering a worthwhile service, you'll be fine.
Someone tell me the reason why this would get downloaded?
Want to win governor? Run on outlawing tipping. Just pay a fair wage.
If only one could ignore state government so easily.
... Do you know what a governor is?
Do you know what state legislative bodies are?
Okay, and? The governor still has a huge impact on the priorities for the legislative bodies. If they don't agree, then the bill will likely never be even introduced in the first place because there's no point in trying. They can also help along negotiations for compromises where they would be focused on other things instead
I've contemplated not tipping altogether, already thought it was stupid. Your paycheck should not depend on someone's charity.
Try this on for size: Tipping is a Legacy of Slavery
This opinion by Michelle Alexander always stuck with me.
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Kinda blows that whole "To Insure[sic] Prompt Service" myth out of the water, doesn't it?
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The thing that made me want to eliminate tipping is the abuse servers have to suffer in order to justify it. I was front of house for 18 years, and in that time I've seen servers sexually harassed, sexually assaulted, regular assaulted, food thrown at them and I've even heard customers flat out say they base their tipping decisions on the race of their server. The attitude among servers is that you can either tolerate being treated like a second class citizen, or you can go to bed hungry that night.
"Etiquette expert" whatd do they do? Just going about yelling at people for doing things a different way. "YOURE SUPPOSED TO HAVE YOUR PINKY UP WHILE DRINKING TEA!!!"
That was last year, now it is an offence if you have your pinky up...You HAVE TO STAY UP TO DATE, MAN!!!
This is exactly why we need the expert!
Ah dang I missed a few episodes of etiquette news.
Ah, nevermimd... Just got the info a few minutes ago, it's mandatory again.
Missed it while I was powdering my nose.
The only time I'd tip is for delivery. I don't even count it as a tip, I consider it a "don't spit in my food" tax.
I find it annoying to see the option everywhere, but I have continued to just tip on the things I always have at the % I always used. I hate the recommended amount with a passion... the last time I saw it it took the entire order amount and recommended % amounts where based off that. I have never tipped on total, why would after taxes be part of the tip %? Also I have heard mixed things about this but beer and mixed drinks are also removed as well before calculating the total for tipping. I at least will add a dollar for each drink since it's what I would tip if I was at the bar.
it's not your waiter's fault that they're stuck in a scam on the scale of a whole culture
Is it mine?
yea
Ah.. My bad :(
It is of you decide they can starve over it.
When sustainable wage ain't the minimum wage tipping ain't a reward for good service, it's the wage earner's solidarity tax.
It's not the fault of the employer who's underpaying them?
It can be multiple people's fault at once. You're still the one stiffing them until the law makes their employers pay them fairly, don't like it, don't use the services.
Tipping is depending on the kindness of strangers. Don't like it, don't get a job that requires tips to survive.
If you don't want to tip then don't ask for the service of tipped workers and get pissy that they ask for a crumb of solidarity while the fight for a living wage remains ongoing.
Don't like tipping, go grocery shopping for your food and cook for your own selfish ass self.
Goes both ways. Don't like it if a person decides not to tip, which is well within their rights? Get a different job rather than continuing to support an industry that's exploiting your labor even more than most do.
Nah, you're the cheepo who doesn't wanna pay the real price for the service they're getting.
People like you are why "but it'll raise prices!" is viewed as a main argument against living wages.
Fuckin' cheapskate you are, when you catch something when the barista you short changed spits in your drink, remember how bravely and nobly you carried the cross of "fuck you gimme a free burger."
Dude. Get help.
If you were trying to convince me that tipping is trash culture for petty, entitled dipshits, you've succeeded
Nah, the employers are the cheapos who want the customers to pay their employees' wages. If an employee is such a raging asshole that they'd spit in a customer's drink, they most certainly don't deserve any kind of tip and at that point it's extortion. "That's a nice drink you have there...be a shame if someone spit in it."
Wanting them to work somewhere with they are paid fairly does not equate to that you have no problem with them starving.
It does when you don't tip them.
No, it doesn't.
You can wish the best for them, and want them to have a happy and healthy life, and not tip them when they don't do anything deserving of a tip.
Deserve ain't the metric when they're being paid below a living wage.
You're arguing they should provide five star service and suck your dick to "deserve" not needing to choose between heating and electricity that month.
The two are not connected though either.
No, I'm not. Please don't put words in my mouth, especially emotionally hyperbolic ones.
Nah, when you're saying you don't have to tip in these times that's exactly what you're saying fuckin' moocher.
That's not what I'm saying. Stop being emotionally hyperbolic and putting words in my mouth, its intellectually dishonest of you to do so, and loses any credibility for the point you are arguing for.
For the record, tip someone if they have earned it, or if you feel sorry for them as a form of charity, but not because you are obligated to do so. Let the company they work for pay them a living wage, its not the customers responsiblity to do so.
So mature. Carry on, Internet Warrior.
Cool cool cool - so we have the solution. After everyone who got bamboozled to work a job without compensation starved the tip crisis is over. Problem solved; just wait it out.
A waiter isn't going to starve because I didn't tip them.
gtfo with that solidarity tax bullshit lol
My waiter probably prefers tipping culture because they make a hell of a lot more than they would otherwise. If not, it's their fault they chose their job.
they might, but not every waiter gets rewarded with a "good shift". the system is bad.
But not every shift is a bad shift. That's why tipped staff wants to stay tipped staff.
If every shift is a bad shift, they should reconsider their job
This seems to be more of a United States issue rather than a Western issue. In Canada, we didn't start tipping businesses all of a sudden that were never part of tipping culture. We always tipped delivery drivers, and servers, and bartenders, and hairstylists, and uber drivers. I've never seen a tip screen on a McDonalds or Wendys or Popeyes debit machine. I've never seen a tip screen on a retail debit machine. What the hell is going on in the US with tipping? What changed?
It's even happening in the uk, although I'm not convinced anyone actually does tip on these screens
UBI
I didn’t listen to the interview, but what is the “going rate” for tipping up front (e.g. DoorDash, Instacart, etc)? For DoorDash, I do a custom tip depending on how far away the restaurant is, not based on the cost of the food. I assume that if they don’t like the tip, they wouldn’t take my job over others (could be wrong). But for grocery shopping, I tip higher because they’re doing a lot more. Just curious what others do.
That's a bid, not a tip.
I stopped using them. I feel like the food delivery services are falling out of favor pretty generally which is a good thing. Especially because no matter how much the tip is, it's always the same cold food with multiple stops in between the restaurant and my address. That part is not always up to the driver, but still a good reason to not bother with it anymore.
I don't mind tipping the services that I have always tipped my whole life, way before COVID even happened: delivery drivers, grocery baggers, barbers, and sit down restaurants where I get served.
Who the hell tips grocery baggers? Bizarre
I used to shop on military bases and the commissary baggers have always only worked for tips.
Okay, but can we admit that topping barbers is fucking weird?
What is the point of the cost of the haircut if I have to pay more on top of that? Just... Charge more for the haircut.
Tipping from its inception was fucking weird. So weird that I'd say it was outright malicious. I'm sure many people are aware at this point that tipping was explicitly created to justify underpaying newly freed slaves, making the entire practice outright racist, Jim Crow era bullshit. The idea persisted so long that it became an uncomfortable and unwanted part of American culture, but at its core, it only exists to circumvent businesses paying a fair wage to its slaves. Greed is the motive, greed is the vibe.
I tip barbers like taxi drivers where I throw in an extra £1 if I'm paying in cash. I think this makes me eccentric in the UK though; not sure it is normal to tip them. Usually don't bother adding a tip if paying by card.
Restaurants have recently started adding a discretionary 10% service charge to bills in my city but that is the tip. Wouldn't tip more than that. If they don't include it in the bill I try to work out something like 12% from quick mental maths and add that on.
I've noticed the till checkouts have options to tip in some shops now but have never given any tips via the prompt.
Tipping in restaurants is great but it has gone to places where it is not needed.
I wouldn't say it's great even there. If you want people to pay 20% more for their food so your workers can get paid, just list that on the menu. Raise all food prices 20% and pay the wait staff a decent wage. Customers pay the same in the end and your staff isn't dependent on customer generosity to make a living.
The "pure greed" framing makes a lot more sense when talking about CEO pay ratios or something. Of course the server making the $2/hr tipped wage is "greedy" for more money, that's called "wanting to live."
Maybe instead of tipping more we should just get rid of tip wage.
If businesses close, then they couldn't be im business without exploitation of their workers and don't deserve to be in business.
many states have already gotten rid of tip wage. the problem remains that the US minimum wage is not enough to live on
I agree
That’s a completely different issue though - there are loads of minimum wage jobs that aren’t tipped. The issue here is that tipped positions can be paid LESS THAN minimum wage, and while legally if their tips and hourly come out to less than minimum wage they should be given minimum wage, this often does not happen.
But then when you argue this point with servers they’ll say “but I make more with tips” and that’s the point where I say ok then if you prefer it that way cool but I’m not tipping and then they get all shocked pikachu face and start trying to argue why I have to tip because of the wage issue I WAS JUST DESCRIBING at which point I say get fucked your are part of the problem.
It's greedy when it goes from "please tip I need money to make a living wage" to "don't get rid of tipping, I make 80k a year from it." Just get paid normally like the rest of us. Forced tipping is a scam.
https://youtu.be/V4sbYy0WdGQ?si=IDihlN6nYOS06Boh
Here in Europe we have something called "salary" and when there's a price on something, it's the price. The salary should be fair, at least the law says it has to be and mostly it is. And tipping/bargaining is a business practice that will and should die, too much room for greed/fraud/scamming etc, these times are over. And I don't bargain. Very few people I know do it like to do. And that's a good thing. I don't even bargain with business partners, I expect a fair price calculation from the beginning and that's what we do with our customers. And there's a growing trend in business to do this. The room for greed, nepotism and cheating is getting smaller and smaller, some day we'll have a fairer business landscape, for everybody. If a customer or business partner asks why something has that particular price, I just tell him or her. Easy. If he/she goes to someone else, he'll or she'll get a product that hasn't got our quality, he's (or she's) free to do so and people did. And 100% came back to us, not 99%, 100% came back. And if it isn't like that, there's something wrong with us or our product. And it makes it so much easier and fairer for everybody. Times are a'changing!
We aren't anywhere near a "tipping point" with regard to tipping. This is just a small number of people not wanting to pay for things, and not realizing that if tipping went away they'd still pay the same fucking total cost.
If your server makes a living by your 15% then the actual service you're being charged for costs 15% more than your menu price. You're just paying part later.
Your alternative to tipping is just servers being paid out X% of food sold, which means that food is going to cost more.
Being bad at math is no basis for an argument.
That's far better than my tips subsidizing the people who don't tip. Tipping creates a perverse incentive to fuck people over.
The first comment on that article when I read it, the guy says he will not tip his delivery driver if there's a delivery fee. I can't believe that after all these years, people still think that a driver is going to see one cent of a delivery fee. I remember Pizza Hut implementing a $1 or $2 delivery fee back in the late 90s, and our tips took a big hit. Back then, I figured that was just a learning curve, and eventually soon people would understand that it is not part of a driver's compensation, but I guess here we are, 25+ years later.
Please don't punish workers for a corporation's greed. A delivery fee is not a tip.
Stop agreeing to work for greedy corps and then getting upset when customers pay the advertised price
How about employers paying livable wage to their workers.
The whole forced tipping is bizzare. And the fact that for some reason workers are seeing it as a conflict with a customer and vice versa is also weird. Businesses are screwing with both parties and pushing the blame.
Sincerely, an European.
Let's get one thing straight - if the customer paid a fee for delivery, and you didn't get paid for doing your job? That's your problem to solve, my dude. It's not solved by introducing a tip, it's solved by people refusing to work for corporations with bad practices, or striking, or unionising.
To be honest, I'm really getting tired of tipping. I don't see any waiters or delivery drivers trying to save my job from getting outsourced to another country, so why am I all of a sudden responsible to help them fight the corpos?
Ding ding ding.
Stop working for shit wages and shit corporations.
Here in the UK most takeaways charge a delivery fee but pay the drivers a set hourly / nightly rate whether it's busy or quiet. Expecting people to pay twice for delivery isn't acceptable.
I'm generally against tipping because in my part of Canada, tipping is "supposed to be" about 15~20%, yet we pay servers no less than any other service worker. A server gets paid the same hourly wage as a McDonalds worker.
Delivery drivers are where I still feel fine about tipping. They're often paying for their own vehicles and gas, insurance, all kinds of added expenses. But they're making the same hourly rate as someone in a restaurant.
Here in Australia the fee is higher and meant to cover costs like petrol and car maintenance.
But then again we don't have a tipping culture, so I probably shouldn't even be here.
Except to say to big companies: stop trying to enforce tipping culture here, it's not going to happen.
Waitstaff get paid well below minimum wage; tips are required to make up the difference.
Delivery drivers - and everyone else who isn't waitstaff - get paid minimum wage. It sucks, but that's the deal.
In the us, tips are not required to make up the difference, tips are allowed to make up the difference. By encouraging tipping culture you are directly allowing the business to offload its wage costs directly to the consumer.
"An employer of a tipped employee is only required to pay $2.13 per hour in direct wages if that amount combined with the tips received at least equals the federal minimum wage. If the employee's tips combined with the employer's direct wages of at least $2.13 per hour do not equal the federal minimum hourly wage, the employer must make up the difference." - https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/wages/wagestips
Your broad generalization on employee salaries is also dishonest of course.
For example, when I worked as a delivery driver, I was initially paid how you explained (except I also got a minimum $2 per delivery) However, it was changed to being paid minimum wage while inside the store and $2.13 while actively on a delivery, and the minimum per run was increased to $2.50.
Obviously every business is different in how they structure pay.
I had no idea delivery drivers were paid like waitstaff - that's fucked up
Hey now, be nice - Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
This is regional, some places don’t have reduced min wage for tipped employees. Servers make the same min wage as everybody else and earn tips on top of that.
Really? I didn't know that. Everywhere I've worked (which isn't everywhere but it's 4 states in the East coast and the deep south), the waitstaff got $3.10 - but I admit it's been over a decade.
Nah, that's not the deal. If it were the deal, you wouldn't see waitstaff fighting against getting rid of tips in favor of a fair wage because they make more in tips