rule
FAQ
Q: why not organize and stop treating the bus as a legitimate entity? why aren’t you working to stop the bus?
A: do both. cut the fuel line. break windows. put oatmeal in the gas tank. but maybe your efforts don’t succeed this election cycle. and if so don’t fucking throw away your vote if it can help your neighbors fucking survive. “harm reduction” is not a political strategy for action. it is a last minute, end of the line decision to save lives, after all other resources have been exhausted.
ITT: people calling for revolution who will never do a damn thing about it. It's easy to pretend violence is the answer when you'll never participate, let alone start something.
Way too many of these chucklefucks just want to LARP as pure and radical revolutionaries. My wife and I are disabled and live on a fixed income of her disability payments and the SNAP program. If this "revolution" they want so bad does come, then we're among the most likely to just fucking starve in the disruption. I'm also one of the people the GOP declared they want to "Eradicate from Public Life" with Project 2025.
Now, I'm not much of a Genocide Enjoyer. I think it's one of the worst things you can do in fact. But I also don't take too kindly to being effectively told that I specifically should just die because these wannabe revolutionaries refuse to entertain a world where we both vote for Biden to keep Trump from destroying democracy more than the GOP already has (harm reduction), AND engage in direct action to push Biden away from blindly supporting Israel.
Refusing to vote for a genocide supporter IS a form of direct activism.
Ah yes. Direct action. Famously done by checks notes Not doing something. So brave.
And then they think they’ll be part of the vanguard when the power vacuum opens up, and will give way to a glorious socialist utopia. Guess what, turbo, you’ll be up against that wall too, and it’s just going to be roving gangs of authoritarians.
Even if you assume those LARPers are willing to sacrifice themselves in bloody revolution for the good of the common folk…
Who do you think suffers most when civil war disrupts supply chains, essential services, and the legal system?
It’s the dang common folk they’re supposedly dying to protect!
My favorite morons ITT:
Yeah because the guy promising to end democracy and bring about Christian nationalism is exactly the same as the moderate we have now. I hope you’re getting paid to be that stupid.
At the end of the day someone becomes president, and spoiler alert the other option is still worse. It’s cute you think your principles are more important than the safety and security of at-risk groups domestically (and frankly abroad as well). Short-sighted and idiotic.
Okay well organize and protest that after we’ve avoided the cliff.
Hope you enjoy your five minutes of smugness, because a Christian nationalist USA doesn’t benefit anyone in the world in the long run.
a lot of the individuals ITT are here in good faith i believe. i’m more trying to get meaningful change to happen than sow discord by calling them morons.
You, i like you
c:
Ive gotten righty whities to agree with me on all sorts of wild leftist ideas, its about finding the angle and humanizing the problem.
A-fuckin-goddamn-men.
You need to communicate with people. Berating them is entirely self serving. No one ever said "you know what? I am a moron, thanks for pointing out my worldview is entirely wrong and I'm an asshole in those exact words."
You can get people to realize they're wrong, but calling them names is exactly the wrong way to do it.
I say "talk to a conservative in conservative language" and they'll understand you. Avoid "trigger" words like redistribution, socialism, LGBT+, etc... use words like "Liberty, freedom of expression, government overreach (when discussing infringement of LGBT+ rights) etc..."
i feel like sometimes people forget the little username in their phone represents a living breathing life that may or may not have had breakfast this morning :(
Well.... with the amount of bots confirmed to be out there.... and some of those living breathing lives are out to convince Americans that what they actually want to do is hand Dr. Fascismo the presidency by not voting or protest voting third party.
Ha, I think at least 70% of Internet arguments are caused by hangryness!
yes and the other 30% are caused by people being bags of flesh with bones and sickness inside
I hear you and I appreciate what you’re trying to do here, though I am skeptical that these people actually are coming here in good faith.
But they are though.
The cliff drivers aren't getting off the bus, even if we vote them down this time, if we don't change the system that allows them equal opportunity to drive us off a cliff they will eventually force it off the cliff.
Biden has long supported the system that allows it, prides himself on being able to find a middle ground with them, and though he talks about not going over the cliff has no long term plan for dealing with those that do, because again he believes in the system that allows them to want to drive off the cliff.
I believe I've stretched this metaphor about as far as it will go, but I'm going to try stretching it further.
There are actually two cliffs, fascism and climate change, even if we pull the bus away from one cliff we've still got the other in front of us and basically no one is even pretending to deal with that.
And to leave the broken bus scenario, I'm just going to say if you believe that a trump win will destroy American democracy, that we can't defeat his corrupt, senile version of fascism then the next republican demagogue will have no problems.
Yeah, and Trump is going to drive you off of both.
People keep acting like we have forever to make change. Meanwhile we are in the midst of a literal climate crisis, and people are literally starving to death with the help of U.S. dollars.
That Christian Nationalist USA is already present. It's emboldening is inevitable due to the inaction from Democrats and especially Biden: the alleged "moderate" president.
Biden is also actively arming a genocide in Gaza. A move I would say is extremely far from moderate in any position. Trump is a horrible choice for president. It was true in 2016 and it's true now. But if Biden refuses to do even the barest of minimums to defeat him in an election what does that say about Biden?
So sure, call it smugness, call it idiotic or whatever bullshit; continue to vilify those tired of voting for bullshit candidates and inaction. I'm sure that will help prove your point; as Biden does literally nothing to combat any of increasingly tense situations rising in the US under his tenure.
Please don’t misunderstand me: I’m not thrilled about the situation either.
But I’m also not going to coddle anyone that thinks making things significantly worse for untold millions to maintain some kind of ideological purity makes them somehow superior or less culpable.
I wouldn't water opposing genocide down to "ideological purity". It's opposing genocide, and that's objectively right every time.
And that's before getting into Joe's inaction on pretty much any important issues during his term. If Trump wins the 2024 election then outside of the GOP that's entirely on Joe Biden for failing to oppose genocide and run any sort of compelling administration.
The reality of the shitty political system of the US means that it comes down to two bad choices.
However one of the bad choices would see the genocide of the Palestinian people accelerated. Not only that, but Trump has tried to oppose aid to Ukraine, which would allow for genocide of the Ukrainian people to occur unabated.
So if your actions to oppose one genocide results in the continuation of that genocide plus one more, is what you did objectively right every time?
Yes, it is still objectively right. Anyone deciding not to vote for Biden isn't automatically culpable for any Trump victory unless they voted for him personally.
Again, Biden has had plenty of time to prove that he's against genocide. To take any sort of major action to try and stop this genocide from continuing the way that it has. Or at the very least taking away all US military funding from Israel. He has done none of that while approving additional military funding for Israel.
This is of course before bringing up the electoral college and how the majority of states don't even get a say in the presidential election outside of their states predetermined answer.
I will not vote for anyone funding genocide. Again, if Trump wins that's entirely on Biden and the Democrats for failing to do anything. The signs have been here for months if not years in terms of voter disatisfaction: and they continue to do fuck all.
This is an incredibly naïve and privileged perspective, clearly held by someone who has nothing to lose if Trump were to win.
All the anarkiddies that think the revolution is right around the bend forget that the reason vulnerable groups dont typically get any better treatment post revolution is bc they are the first to be destroyed when the revolution kicks up and the fascists double down.
These sorts of takes kill me. There is nothing stopping you from taking revolutionary courses of action right fucking now. The doors wide fucking open. Youll find that those doors will inch closed real fucking quick under trump.
The Spanish anarchists still have a political party active in Spain whose history runs right back to the civil war in which they fought. The very second of their posted tenets is (paraphrasing), making conditions under the current agenda more tolerable.
Meanwhile, russia has a single communist party formed in the 90s. Why? Bc all others were singularly crushed. They left the one that offers least opposition to the status quo.
That situation hasnt arrived yet. You are free to organize, you are free to aggregate in groups. You can spread your own propaganda, just as you can form or join labor unions, and you are free to try and create new communities of mutual aid. Those are all viable (read: necessary) steps to take.
Good luck taking them when the boot comes crashing down harder than this country has ever seen or was ever prepared for. Voting for Status Quo Joe isnt an endorsement of him, his policies, or the neoliberal status quo. Its just that, a vote. You can use it strategically to buy more time to make evasive maneuvers, or u can forfeit ur vote and lose it all. Then theres always throw it to the dogs via third party the way the american libertarians tried in 2012 when ron paul didnt get the repub nom the way they wanted. Guess what happened then... Johnson still get way under the 5% of the vote needed to give third parties greater tv time next time around. And this time, if dump wins, thats probably going to be the last ur able to vote for a third party president anyway.
We (the left) have been hit by foreign astroturfing the way the right was in 2016. The influx of youth that was supposed to save us by their leftward skew is running away from the political process bc they think theyre going to be revolutionaries. Sorry boys and girls, anarchy/communism wont be brought about by memes, sitting at home, or pretending that you can convince ppl to join ur cause after trumps elected when their lives are going to be all the more consumed and their free time dwindles away as we all work heavier and heavier hrs and the retirement age slips further and further away.
Really sick of hearing it all.
I'm actively watching the rights of my loved one literally be stripped away while Biden does fuck all. You can call me whatever you want, but the point remains that Biden has done fuck all and is actively promoting genocide.
You don't know the first thing about me; so don't condescend to me while ignoring everything else I've said.
Biden is president now and trans kids rights are being taken away, black people still disproportionately victimized by police violence, asylum seeking immigrants turned away at the border, and we are funding genocide!!!
It's naive to think that Biden and the Democratic Party has any incentive to change their policies when people will blindly vote them in no matter what they do.
you can do so much more to defeat the reactionaries by visiting:
than a polling station
It's so weird to see it framed as an either/or. Voting is the absolute bare minimum you can do to participate. So yeah go vote, and also organize your friends and network with like minded people around you and work towards the change you want. I doubt any of the ideologically pure abstainers here have even ever turned out to vote much less actually worked on a campaign.
The problem is that "moderates" are very conservative and fascist-leaning as well. The Biden administration is still funding genocide, still turning away asylum-seeking migrants, hell Biden hasn't even followed through on releasing prisoners convicted of marijuana convictions.
And people ARE protesting now, but not as much as under Trump, and these things haven't changed. Biden allows barely engaged liberals to think everything is okay, but Biden is still AWFUL he just has better optics to liberals.
Trump is literally a fascist. You’re damn right Biden has better optics…because he isn’t a fascist. So who are you voting for then?
Biden is also a fascist, he's just not proud about it
No he isn’t and the fact you’re equivocating him to Trump is frankly ridiculous.
He’s a capitalist, imperialist, hegemonic proprietor. Sure. Fascist he is not.
Yeah, I agree that it’s a shit situation and an undesirable choice. But the unfortunate political reality we currently live in is that it’s either Biden or Trump.
Yes, the Biden administration is supplying weapons to Israel that are being used for genocide. Trump has commented that Israel needs to “finish the problem.”
Yes, the Biden administration is turning away asylum seekers on our southern border. Trump has said that migrants are “poisoning the blood” of our nation.
I challenge your last point regarding marijuana convictions: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2022/10/06/statement-from-president-biden-on-marijuana-reform/
But I will again will contrast that Trump rescinded the Obama-era policy of not pursuing marijuana charges at the federal level in states where it was legal. A clear and significant step backward.
https://www.lastprisonerproject.org/president-biden-issues-additional-cannabis-pardons-but-still-no-one-has-been-released
it's optics
It’s not ”just optics”. Per your source he did pardon 6,500 individuals, which the Last Prisoner Project described as “progress for those eligible for relief.”
Now they do argue that the Biden administration should go further by pardoning 3,000 additional people, which I agree with. But to call this step forward “just optics” is at best disingenuous.
Here’s the fucking frighting thing, the moderates I know(relatives mostly) hate Biden because of the price of gas and groceries, that he isn’t killing everyone trying to cross the southern border, and believe Trump will be better for America in these crazy times. It’s fucking depressing to hear
This is what I'm saying - the moderates fucking suck and it's not worth trying to win them over. Move the party left, the zombified vote-blue-no-matter-who Democrats will vote for a more leftist candidate just like they vote for a more moderate candidate.
This analogy is so absurd. Like if you have a vote on driving off a cliff, the answer is not to treat the vote as legitimate. The answer is to attempt to stop the bus by any means necessary. Pry open the engine panel and chuck a wrench in the gears, cut the fuel line, break the shifter lever, anything, just get off the fucking bus. Neither driver should be trusted.
EDIT: I am sick of hearing "WHY WON'T YOU VOTE THO"
First of all, I already said this:
That's the other problem with this post: the non-voter is a strawman. Most people with real critiques of the bus vote too because they understand this. Voting barely matters for the most part but you may as well do it. Most people yelling about "don't vote it's pointless" are like 15 years old doing baby's first radical politics.
I just don't understand why every time we criticise the bus we have to deal with loads of people yelling about why we don't take the voting more seriously, as if who we vote for is the bigger issue than the fact that we're stuck on a careening death machine with a bunch of people calmly debating how fast we should all die.
I think the answer to this is: so, what are you doing to stop the bus from going over the cliff that's better than voting? And can't you do both of them?
Because usually people aren't doing much else. Especially anything effective. They're just not voting.
This comment is why you're getting this spiel, because you need to understand something:
The people who don't vote are usually the most disenfranchised people, living paycheck to paycheck, stuck in survival mode, and they don't care who's in charge because they've noticed through hard lessons that they keep getting screwed no matter what. Also often they can't vote because they can't get off work. They're not terminally online yelling at people not to vote, those are probably mostly kids doing baby's first radical politics.
The sad reality is that electoral politics has a cold calculus to it where they've got the populace cut into rough thirds. About a third are susceptible to full on fascist propaganda and cannot currently be reached. Another third vote centre-left because they usually understand it's their only reasonable vote. Very few of them are actively engaged because it is a deeply disempowering system. Another third are who I mentioned.
That's not going to change just because you correctly debated with me about voting. I vote as far left as I meaningfully can, I just don't think it really matters and I think both psychologically and practically the faster people learn that the better.
I think understanding reality is much more important, and I think the fact that this insane bus analogy gets accepted paints a grim picture of how fucked up the electoral system really is. I also think it's wrong about the stakes - it's not cliff or icecream. It's cliff or slower cliff. Vote for the slower cliff, but don't ever mistake the drivers for your friends. You are voting for your preferred enemy.
I don't think the third are the ones who have power fantasies about them not voting but rather just people who don't bother. So they're not the ones I was talking about.
I'm talking about the ones who are so proud of their principled take of not voting and telling others how that doesn't change the system and how the actual change happens through other means. And then the other means they are doing are maybe some complaints on social media, which is just lol.
bro. do both.
cut the fuel line. break windows. put oatmeal in the gas tank.
but maybe your efforts don’t succeed this election cycle. and if so don’t fucking throw away your vote if it can help your neighbors fucking survive.
“harm reduction” is not a political strategy for action. it is a last minute, end of the line decision to save lives, after all other resources have been exhausted.
in response to your edit:
objectively false. in the 2020 election more eligible US voters turned out than any election in recent history, and still those who did not vote outnumbered those who voted for the winner. you are saying falsehoods.
Bless you for this comment.
How many commenters here have even tried to figure out how ‘busses’ (the electoral process) work and find a way to get involved?
Spend 5 hours a week (yes, you can find the time, deduct it from your screen time!) and you could basically take over your local party committee. That alone won’t change the national trend, but you might just be able to influence a city council or school board race.
Local races hinge on a handful of votes very often. In our area, we managed to keep two anti-LGBTQ+ candidates off the school board last election. This impacts the lives of literally thousands of youth and their families and it hinged on about 80 votes. Vote, yes, but at least skim the Chilton manual for your bus in between elections. It really does matter
My logic is what about vote and pry the bus apart? If you have the option to might as well go for it as part of the 'any means necessary', a tool is a tool.
I don't know why everytime I try to say that we should stop this bus half the passengers jump up and yell "BUT WHY WOULDN'T YOU VOTE".
I never said that. I said the vote is illegitimate and we need to stop the bus. I still vote.
stop the bus != don't vote
Alright, so what do you do to overthrow the system then? Nothing, that's right. Screw you.
In Australia we only have two options in the lower house. One of them is pretty close to driving off a cliff.
Things could always be better (I personally find with their recent car emissions legislation a bit weak) but our current government is doing OK.
Our current government is mediocre as shit and does nothing to fix anything. We take 5 steps towards the edge of the cliff each time Liberal get in and two steps forward and half a step back when Labor do. The end result is we’re going over the cliff, just in slow motion.
Wouldn't cutting the brake lines of a moving bus be really dangerous? Why not vote for ice cream, then sabotage the bus while it's parked? At least the ice cream place has food, shelter, and a bathroom.
*brake
Also:
You might want to brush up on your mechanics knowledge. Cutting a fuel line will kill an engine fast.
And I never said not to vote. This idea that anyone trying to criticise the system is saying not to vote is a strawman. I literally said:
The thing is, doing that is a great way to lose credibility. You're basically sinking to the same level as the fascists.
Anti fascist sabotage is bad because violence, hmm 🧐
As long as you don't physically harm people, sabotage all the fascists you want. Just remember to vote.
I was very careful to avoid actual violence in my language. You were the one that equated it to fascism, which I assume you mean is the cliff driver.
Of course stopping the bus isn't violent, and is not at all equivalent to the cliff driver.
So you're saying that you would condemn the killing of Donald Trump if he gets into power and enacts his dictature?
I'm the smash the bus person, and I actually would. The truth is he's only marginally worse than Joe in most of the ways that matter, and assassinations always lead to much worse reactions. Trump isn't the problem, the apparatus that enables him is.
The solution is to build alternatives that remove people's dependence on the state and capital, so the president matters less. That's what I mean by smashing the bus. I never said to kill the driver, because his mates will kill you and stay in control.
Oh because of the violence? Driving off a cliff is also violent behaviour, and with the bus as it is the cliff is inevitable, because the cliff drivers will always get back in. Also, the other guy isn't the icecream guy. He's the guy who promised to stop for icecream but doesn't want to tell you if or how fast he plans to drive off the cliff. He's open to debate on the issue, but he has a lot cliff driving friends and they often cast the deciding vote in cliff driving matters.
They're both getting us off the cliff, just one is being more coy and circumspect than the other.
The only reason to vote for the less-immediate cliff driver is to give you more time to stop the bus.
Let me know when you start the violence. It's easy as fuck to sit behind your iphone calling others to die.
Coooool comeback.
Even easier to sit behind your iPhone telling people to vote even though it will never solve our problems.
And my theory of change is not actually violent - you'll notice I didn't advocate hurting anyone, just dismantling the machinery of violence. The other person called it equal to fascism, which I assume they equate to the cliff driver, so I took their assumption of violence as given, which I shouldn't have. Stopping the bus is infinitely preferrable to driving it off the cliff.
Except, it's not an attempt to end democracy, as fascism is.
disagree
damn, people really can't read, huh?
If I have to read one more both sides are terrible "take" that encourages voter apathy I'm going to lose my mind. Vote, people I don't care who you vote for but you have to vote because apathy is how we get fascism.
Do something rather than just throwing a piss fit and encouraging others to do nothing.
Nervous German laughter
We will probably get fascism with our next federal state's election, since AFD is projected to win by far more votes than any other party. Whelp.
I've met a young mom who, while not voting for AFD itself, does hope they will win the election because "then the voters will finally get heard and we also get to see what the party actually wants to implement, otherwise it's just big talk but it's interesting to see what they would do once they are in power." ...Can we not find out please? I hope it would just be big talk but I really don't care to find out. I am superwhite but I don't have a German passport and I don't want to know.
But back to the actual topic, I absolutely agree with you and not voting is always, always a bad idea. Hell, not two weeks ago I went to Berlin, paid for a hotel and stood in a long line to vote for the rigged elections in Russia. I know my voice will not be heard and it still felt imperative. Please, please go vote if you're in the USA ( - or anywhere where your voice will actually at least be counted). I hate to say it but our future also depends on what your country decides.
Oh yeah it's not foolproof you absolutely still can have people vote against their interests but encouraging apathy doesn't fix that
Tell the DNC to pick somebody else?
Burn both parties to the ground and bar them all from holding office ever again.
At least this would be doing something, you have my support.
sort of happening actually
I guess it depends on the country, but here in France, our last two presidential elections were about choosing how fast fascism would come.
Not very versed in French politics but I imagine the fight to maintain democracy is difficult regardless of country. No matter how bad the choice gets though, not making it isn't the answer.
Both texts in screenshot are agruments against apathy
This was a response to the comments.
D- does that mean youve still a mind? C-c- could we m-maybe sh-share?
Cuz I feel like itd come in handy when the foreign shills show up to tell me all about why the problem you just described is ackswallee not here on lemmy at all..... i guess we just that special.
Good to see the sane comments up top, but still.
This is a long established problem with FPTP voting (FPTP = First Past The Post: One voter = one vote). You don't really get to vote for your choice candidate, rather you vote against the worst of the two popular candidates by voting for the other guy.
Now there are plenty of election reform solutions, but in the US, both parties are weakened by the people having more choice, so neither party is willing to back amendments to the Constitution of the United States that would install a more public serving voting system.
This also means, according to CIA analysts who have studied nations on the brink and how they can avoid civil war, the US is very likely to see a civil war in its near future (next decade). But then we're also likely to see elections neutered anyway, so that the Republican party controls all elected positions (and appointed ones after that). And then local genocides can get underway.
So yes, if you're voting to make a point (other than you want the Heritage Foundation's Project 2025 to play out or want to delay it for a while) the point won't be heard. In fact, the Republicans and their foreign national propaganda machine supporters are probably very glad you're willing to withhold blue votes to make a point. It won't make that point, but they're glad for you for trying.
i don’t disagree but this is also a long established problem with people not showing up to vote, so jot that down.
The four people vote and you still drive off a cliff due to gerrymandering
Whole lot of priveleged accelerationists ITT. Good thing most of them were probably never going to bother voting anyhow.
Honestly that's probably me. But not what you think. In the process for long-term self sponsor visa to France rn. I made the decision in July 2022. Lived there a while to test it and now am in process to make perm. I'll still vote absentee if possible.
I don't really see any reason to be here anymore though. The experiment has failed and I no longer have any desire to try to protect it like generations of my family who moved here for equality of life and better economic opportunities. So, like them I'm moving, to a place that has the baseline of treating 52% of its population as humans and opportunities for my profession. There's plenty wrong there too, but the way I look at it, might as well have good wine while watching everything burn.
Sounds like something a cliff hater would say.
We'll all be rich at the bottom of the canyon.
The wealth will trickle down!
Liberalism is driving off a cliff and killing everyone because a third of people voted to do it.
There are 9 people on the bus. Five people vote to get shit burgers even though no one wants that, just because they think it will save them from the 3 people who vote to drive off the cliff. One person obstains. Two of the three people hijack the bus and drive off the cliff. Four of the five people blame the person who obstained as they drive off the cliff.
Fascists don't care if they win or lose. Voting can't save you once you've reached this point. You don't have slightly high blood pressure that you can treat by eating right. You have cancer. You fight the cancer with everything you have or you die.
Fascists do care about winning, that is why they pump so much money into being elected, as elections are one of the most frictionless paths to power. That's why they change the rules to make themselves more likely to be elected. That's why they try to disenfranchise people who would vote against them. A coup is a risky thing, which is why they take all paths to power which are available.
The problem is, you don't have much. There isn't a robust labor movement in the US which could provide a front against fascism. Any small scale or individual struggle might help you personally and save lives, but it's not gonna stop the bus. At most it's gonna pull some of the people from it before it drives of the cliff.
If you want to fight the guys who're about to hijack the bus, you need time. As much time as possible to amass the response. Voting for shit burgers is just what gives you that sliver of it. This is the thing you keep doing to be able to keep going, not the saving grace.
Fascists want to win because it means there will be less resistence from liberals, not because they will abide by the law. That's a pretty important distinction that I don't think liberals can integrate right now.
A successful coup is indistinguishable from a legal election, which is why they create as much chaos as possible and sew distrust before elections.
I'm not saying voting is completely useless but I am saying that you are deluded if you think voting will save you. It might not even buy you more time. Organize now. Figure out how you're going to eat while you're fighting. Download army manuals and start reading them. Start talking to other people about what to do when Trump takes power (acknowledging that he will claim power reguarless if he wins or loses the election).
A coup is less likely to be successful if you promise to revolt no matter how a fascist takes power. They rely on tricking enough people in to cooperating. If enough people will riot, some of the ghouls who back the fascist will back off and you lower their chances of success.
You don't have time. Sure, vote anyway because it's a low effort thing that might buy you time. It's basically a free lottery ticket. You probably aren't going to win, but it will be really great if you do and it's super low effort. But you wouldn't take out a loan assuming that ticket will pay off. Act like voting won't actually buy you time, because it probably won't.
Vote for shit burgers or don't. The time to build a movement was 4 years ago before liberals decided to go back to brunch. The thing is that fascism requires the complicity of liberals. A very small group of people could beat the driver to death, take the keys, and park the bus. Liberals will work with fascists to resist those people because they think they'll get the keys back later and get ice cream. Liberals can't accept that there is no ice cream and there never was.
And not-voting doesn't mean the bus stays put.
It's going somewhere.
A dilemma doesn't go away just because you don't like the options.
except the options are: 1- going off a cliff and 2- going off a cliff
I'll take the smaller cliff
both will kill you instantly on impact tho
Then I'd vote for the bigger cliff, just to be sure
I think that's called "accelerationism". Though that might be when you tell the driver to go faster
Going off a cliff or going off a cliff but they'll put some nice tunes on the radio while we die.
I'm pretty sure they left the Electoral College out of this hypothetical scenario. Because the reality is, no matter how the general population votes, the Electoral College makes the ultimate decision. So the electoral College mightve decided to go for ice cream even though most people wanted to go off a cliff or didn't care at all.
And even more realistic, the only two options would have been 1) going off a cliff or 2) exploding into flames. because those are fair analogies for the options we have for US president these days.
And that's why so many people don't want to vote. I don't want to go off a cliff or burst into flames. No. I don't want either of those things.
Is this PsyOps to keep people discouraged?
The OP has a point and for some reason you don't like it. I wonder which of the people you'd be in this analogy.
I understand feeling angry and dejected, but if you act like there's absolutely no hope, then there won't be. Votes still matter in this country. Maybe they're not counted in exactly the way you'd like, but they're still important, and they make a difference.
The OP said the option was between going off a cliff or going for ice cream.
I'm telling you in reality our options are going off a cliff or bursting into flames. And THAT is why people don't vote.
By the way, votes do not matter. The Electoral College trumps all. Every time I've ever voted for something, the opposite thing won. Votes don't fucking matter.
The only psyop is the media telling everyone that votes do matter.
Right. They do all the campaigning and Fox News propaganda just for fun.
Why do you keep insisting that the only race that matters is for the Presidency? You keep hidng behind your superior moral stance based on the Electoral Colleges flaws. The electoral college only pertains to the presidency.
What’s going on in your local school board or city council races? If you can’t answer, then perhaps reconsider who may be falling for a psy-op.
That's the race that's being discussed, were not talking about local elections in this bus metaphor, it's very clearly the presidential election being discussed, which explains the mentioning of the EC
Please read the original post and let me know where the presidency is mentioned.
fucken 10/10 comment and i want to unabashedly praise you for your correctness
Also, you vote for going off a cliff or the committee to investigate driving off of cliffs, with a moratorium on steering, braking or accelerating because hey Jack, settle down, we're trying. Then when the committee gets into power they tell you to look out the right hand window at the lovely view whilst they edge closer to the cliff on the other side, and if you try to point out that we're getting awfully close to that cliff, the committee says, "Oh, well, do you want the cliff driving maniac in charge? That's what you'll get if you keep criticising us." Then the bus bursts into flames because it's horrifically out of service and unsafe no matter who's driving.
this analogy still applies if the electoral college is in place, it just alters (worsens) the demographics of the situation. not sure why you think it invalidates the whole model; that is simply incorrect. the model still applies it is just more complicated in reality.
harm reduction is a last minute decision. it’s not the strategy for political action. yes i agree the situation is fucked. but at least let’s do our due diligence, and if we find that the explosion has a higher survival rate than the cliff, i’m going to do my damndest to stop the bus before i have to make that decision, but i will always choose the one that has even a marginal chance of saving more lives.
Now there is a candidate in Texas who changed his name to Literally Anybody Else
Voting metaphors that don't have people dying in either option are disingenuous imo. Like I understand the concept of harm reduction to a point, but let's not pretend one of the options is something as innocent as "getting ice cream".
absolutely agree. the situation is closer to driving into the grand canyon versus into the sun.
nevertheless i do think the intended rhetorical effect of the post has value, esp for those who don’t intend to vote at all.
I hear you. I think many people who aren't intending to vote do understand the situation but just have a different moral take. Like, sure, driving the bus into a brick wall may save some lives compared to driving it off a cliff. But for the people that'd die in the wall option, they're still dead either way. Shouldn't we at least try to stop the bus from crashing at all, as unrealistic as that may be?
i highly recommend doing both, organize and vote
I say organize, vote uncommitted in the primary if you can, and do what you have to in November. But yes, agreed.
We didn’t have that option in the Ohio primary so I just left that space blank and voted down-ticket.
yeah it's more like driving into a bush versus driving into an active volcano. The bush gives you at least a 30% chance to survive.
This is written from an "I'm right, you're wrong" perspective. In real life, no one is running a drive off a cliff campaign, and the guy promising ice cream may not be able to deliver.
Also, fundamentally both left and right can make the argument the other side wants to run off a cliff.
I mean, one person is promising to end democracy in favor of chrisofacism. I feel like a "drive off the cliff" campaign is a pretty apt analogy.
It's not. In a christofascism, not everybody suffers. People just assume they will be in the not suffering group. If a bus runs off a cliff, not so much.
https://www.mediamatters.org/heritage-foundation/guide-project-2025-extreme-right-wing-agenda-next-republican-administration
Yeah, it's a baby's understanding of politics.
Like do these people actually think we get to vote on what the bus does? No, we're voting on the bus driver. We've got a screaming maniac and a doddering fool who keeps letting the maniac yank the wheel anyway, and they're both proven liars.
Pointing out that this situation is bad is not irresponsible. The irresponsible thing is to just vote and cheer on the fool because you're so afraid of the maniac.
if this is happening there's a moral imperative to hijack the bus yourself
Which is a great achievement by republicans. They're excellent at controlling the narrative and making it seam like the Biden admin is actually equally bad.
Or, more realistically:
Yeah, I really don't get this attitude on Lemmy. I get not wanting to crash the bus. But voting for the guy who at best will let the other guy crash the bus in the future or at worst crash the bus tomorrow isn't the answer.
I first thought that Lemmy was a little more of the early internet forums I remember, more anti-establishment, anarchist, left wing, but there's way too much "vote blue no matter who" which is the exact same mentality that has killed the Republican party. Is Candidate A an immoral shit bag? Doesn't matter; there's a D next to their name. Probably better than the guy with the R. Better not see if anyone else is on the list.
I can afford to vote my conscience. I live in a deeply red state, so my vote doesn't matter, something Democrats could try to fix, but they won't. Voting 3rd party does matter though, and it's the only way to truly affect real change and make a difference. It's the DNC and RNC's job to field a candidate who's worth your vote. If they don't do that, find someone who's worth it.
Youre not going to get a chance to vote third party again under donnie dump, tho.
Nah, they'll still let parties that don't have a chance run for election. Just look at Russia, they recently had an election...
Oh yes, fair point. Like the communist party of russia. There once was many, but they ensured only the one that they could best control remains
You will never get a chance to vote for what you want became America isn't a democracy. It's not a democracy if a club of rich people choose who you get to vote for. That's literally how Chinese democracy works except it's the party instead of the oligarchs.
Cant decide if this comment is more ignorant, or defeatist...
Haha losers. Imagine not having some form of preferential voting. Catch up idiots
go away troll no one gets any benefit from this shit
The benefit is:
a) you know what needs to change
b) you know what country to move to if it doesn't change
c) it's entertaining
disgusting and disturbing lmao. fuck off with that nonsense
I never said genocide is entertaining. It's really not. How did you get from a joke about preferential voting not being in America to genocide? From what I understand of American politics both are potentially genocidal, so I don't even know how much preferential voting would help.
Where I live also doesn't have preferential voting if it makes you feel better.
Approval Voting and the proportional variety, Sequential Proportional Approval Voting, are better choices than any ranked system, but pretty much dang near anything is better than the "choose one" standard.
Australichads stay winning
What kills me are the people whose preferred form of government is not currently the most popular form of government somehow think that after a revolution that their preferred form of government will win out. They're delusional. In most cases the government gets worse, much worse, before it gets better.
Thats only if you use experience or look at historial precedent, Im sure this time it will work out.
Nah, it’s the difference between a grassy cliff, and a muddy one. Doesn’t matter, still a fucking cliff.
To extrapolate your metaphor, I will vote, but for a third option: a dirt road. Yea I’ll be in the minority, but we are all good as dead anyway since everyone else including my state reps believe one cliff or the other is the path to Valhalla.
Ah, so you're voting for trump I see!
/s, obviously that depends on where you are on top of other things
Haha! No trump is the muddy cliff. I don't know what the third option is yet. To be clear, I have plenty of reason to vote. But I also have plenty of reasons to not choose either candidate. Also, I happen to be in a red state which gives all of its electoral votes to one candidate, I will vote for who I want, since the outcome has already been determined.
I mean, even in your example, yes it does matter. They're both terrible choices, but the muddy cliff is likely to provide a softer, more survivable landing than the grassy one.
I'm surprised an instance like this is okay with people showing up and arguing why letting a transphobic fascist take power is actually not as bad as it sounds.
I will not be voting for anyone who supports a genocide. That will not change. Now there are two ways to change the outcome.
I will not budge. Will you?
Two candidates that support genocide, but one is a christofascist. No matter who you vote for, genocide support wins. But you think it's better to give the christofascist better odds than to inconvenience yourself with a vote you don't 100% agree with, and possibly abstain from your chance to ever vote again. Not voting won't fix the issue, since there's no threshold on voter turnout for the election to count. The struggle against genocide must be fought in other ways. So unfortunately, this fall you're getting genocide, so please make sure you don't get fascism too.
I'd rather just not vote for genocide.
Aside from the obvious, that will just be continuing to tell the two parties that nominating genocide supporters is good. You can continue telling your favorite party that you are okay with genocide, but I will not, thank you very much. This is why you are stuck between two genocide supporters. When your chosen party leaves you with a genocide supporter as your only choice, you tell them that's good.
And you are not going to fight the genocide in any other way, so don't pretend. Your chosen party is one of the two that ratified bills to make any attempts at boycotts or sanctions illegal.
Also, both candidates are fascists. Look at what's happening on our Southern border, look at just our recent history in the Middle East, and look at the fascist government committing genocide that we are supporting.
You don't fight fascism in the ballot box. Every single example in history teaches you that.
The parties don't really care if you don't vote, so not voting doesn't apply pressure to them to change.
Hypothetically speaking, if candidates A and B both support genocide but candidate B wants to take away your right to vote, I think we should vote for candidate A.
Direct action and or forcing the hands of politicians so more people have an incentive to voteTrying to get people to support genocide and half assed half measures (that keep the door open for making things worse than they were before, which is very in line with the ruling class' interests), and when they don't, imply they support fascism 😌
What do you mean, “support”?
It's not implying they support fascism, it's implying they're letting fascism happen faster, because they are.
You're effectively voting for "eh whatever"
See you at the bottom of the cliff then.
Don't dishearten they're almost certainly not actually an American voter.
i admire your dedication and resolve. for the sake of everyone involved i hope your narrative plays out. :)
for me personally i find such a scenario unlikely and so choose to operate within the bounds of a model i find to be closer to reality to reduce the harm brought to my neighbors.
Between genocider and genocider-but-worse, I'm not gonna stand by and let genocider-but-worse win power.
People need to lower their expectations about what voting is. It's like paying your taxes. It's not fun, you probably won't get what you want, and you have to do it every year. Also, individual votes don't really matter, especially if your candidate loses. And there's a ton of things in the way of getting things done so it's going to take a long time.
Four people vote for driving off a cliff. Three vote for driving into a wall. Two vote for getting ice cream.
Everybody on the bus dies. You blame the people who voted for ice cream.
American with two Party system and no real choice trying ro rationalize HM?
go away if you aren’t going to do anything except troll please
we get it america bad. now say sth constructive please
Thus is the problem with our broken, binary choice system. Ranked voting may not be perfect, but it is exceeding better than the me we have now.
this is why you do preferential voting
And overhauling our voting system to become such a thing requires engagement in our current system
Specifically pushing for candidates that support it and expressing how important it is to people in your locality (yes you have to talk to people IRL) and to the representatives who win
This implies that engagement in the political process changes anything. It's been basically mathematically proven that rich people always get their way in our current system and the vast majority get almost nothing. Rich people don't want voting reform. This system is way easier for them to game.
Oh I forgot that nothing ever changes in regards to voting so we shouldn't even try
Oh wait! Woman's suffrage, The Civil Rights Act (Ending the Jim Crow Era), various states going for universal mail-in ballots, various states currently passing Ranked Choice voting (and actively having movements for it), etc
Bruh those groups of votes (if there was a positive vote and not a court battle) came at the end of large, vitriolic, sometimes violent movements. Suffrage, civil rights, gay Rights, these things weren't pleasantly discussed then voted on and passed. There were bricks thrown through windows and buildings burnt down.
And then many times they were based on a supreme Court decision that could be overturned, like Jim Crow and Roe v Wade.
Almost any time civil rights and representation has moved forward, it's been at the end of a sword. It gets removed the exact opposite way, the slow churn of the political machine being co-opted by bad players. Even when you see a military coup, it was at the end of a movement.
Voting won't change shit UNLESS you have fought to get what you want on the ballot or else politicians will ignore you to fundraise, that simple imo.
You mean to say they had political engagement?
If the supreme court justices that made those decisions were different because different people won the elections then there's a chance those decisions would have been different.
Politics takes place at many levels, city, county, state, country, there's many elections that are important.
If you don't engage in politics don't be made when shit doesn't go your way.
yeah let me just get right on that
This is a good metaphor on voting. You are not the driver, you are a passenger. Your choices cannot change the route.
Voting IMO is more like choose between a cliff and a deep pit . A failure is guaranteed, try to minimize the fall.
good analysis, i concur
I'm a fan of harm reduction. There might still be harm, but it's more limited than it was previously.
It's not the whole solution and always needs further actions at the end of the day, but it's movement in the right direction.
Far better than just coasting along waiting for things to get worse.
Not voting is lazy in most circumstances for sure. What I hate is that people equate voting third party with not voting. I'm not voting blue. Y'all can't guilt me into it. I'm voting for a third party socialist. 😏
i gently would encourage you to look into game theory and the far reaching implications of the spoiler effect under first past the post
i do applaud your commitment to morally tenable candidates, however many folks find there is a deeper opportunity for good in the voting process, at least in the current environment, and i generally concur
I appreciate you being nice. I understand the concern you have with the spoiler effect. But our country has been stuck in this lesser evil game for my whole life. That being said I also live in a very blue state. If my state were to go red it won't be because of the few people like that vote third party.
You have to change the voting system if you want to change the game. I suggest volunteering with Election Science to switch your elections to Approval Voting, so you can vote for everyone you like, instead of just the person you hate least.
Yep I know. Sadly elected officials are needed to change the voting system so that's largely unhelpful.
I'd love to have ranked choices voting. But like only the third party candidates would possibly do that. Candidates from team red or blue have nothing to gain by doing that and stand to lose everything by doing it.
And the difference between that and not-voting is what?
Not counting an air of smug superiority.
I love all the any means necessary people, like just vote for 5 seconds and get the damned ice cream. You don’t need to sabotage the bus, just act civilly inside the bus
For all the fatalists I'll bring beer so we can watch the world burn together after you've voted
political power is when you assure your leaders that there is nothing they could do to lose your vote short of fucking your mom and even then you would have to consider whether the other guy would fuck your mom worse
I'd vote to fuck your mom...
Typing that out felt like a physical pang of regression, but I don't take it back
I tried in 2016 and 2020 and the dems told me to pound sand. I’m not going to be the one getting fucked by trump. Fuck around and find out.
"I'm not on the bus so let it crash"
Eh, it’s more of I tried to right the bus but everyone fought against me so let it crash.
All I see is panic. supposedly If the majority of women were pro-abortion, you wouldn't have to worry about Trump and republicans winning the next elections. women alone would flip the red states. but apparently not all women agree with abortion.
the majority of US women are pro-choice
Maybe they don't vote accordingly!
The pole linked above shows that 55% of women are pro-choice. That's not nearly enough of a majority to "flip the red states" especially since the majority of the 55% are more likely to live in blue states already.
I certainly do. My address's official polling place is a church, which means that my religious mother does not feeling comfortable voting on the topic even though she agrees.
Problem. Harm reduction voting requires at least one good faith candidate.
Right now we have choice between the scenic route to go off the cliff and the express route. Electoral boycotts are effective once they reach critical mass. Telling everyone they need to vote harm reduction without a good faith candidate is just suppressing the natural tendency of a democracy to flush a bad set of leaders.
We could also use a general strike but they'll just order us back to work and call it a union victory.
What the fuck are you on about? You take the fucking scenic path! At least that buys you some time and maybe you’ll crash into a tree along the way and manage to have a few survivors.
There’s no brakes on the trump train. The rails are headed right towards the cliff, it’s downhill, and somebody lubed them up with McDoubles (the rails and the conductor).
The problem is, that's been my entire life. And now I've seen the "less harmful" side actively stop people who would help from getting elected. Even to funding the "more harmful" side.
At some point you have to stop. Why can't I vote to just hit the brakes?
You’re one of the four people who didn’t vote for ice cream or driving off a cliff. Instead you decided to write-in frozen yogurt.
The cliff drivers still win, and you still ain’t got no froyo.
It’s cool if ice cream isn’t for you. Thats fine. I think most of us, even if we don’t want ice cream…hell, even if we’re lactose intolerant, would rather go along to the ice cream parlor than to drive off the cliff. Because like it or not, those are the only two realistic options.
Also the harm-reduction strategy really only applies to the top of the ballot. It’s been that way my whole adult life, too. It sucks, but if you want any change, it’s not going to start at the top of the ballot. It’s going to start at the bottom.
There are two main parties at the top of the ballot and they aren’t moving easily. There’s a lot of reasons for that, but at the end of the day, right now, they are the two, and that’s not changing except from the bottom up. From the not-fiercely-challenged races.
Scenic path will put you asleep instead of eliciting you fight or flight response. Ditch any faith in this corpse of a system ffs.
You are literally saying "let fascism come, I'm ready".
Not everyone is. Your personal fight means nothing against the most powerful state in the world. You need a popular movement to just have a chance. Otherwise it's just part suicidal doomerism part larp.
counterpoint, its not either or. this is a false dichotomy the democrats created and maintain as a rhetorical device to silence dissent. i will never vote for joe biden. ill vote for.., a couple of democrats down ballot. and that is the extent of my interaction with the legitimate systems of democracy in the US. if you dont live in a swing state, the presidential race is, effectively, not real for you. this is a basic tenant of "american electoral politics" , or as I like to call it, a tenant of US Authoritarianism
i encourage you to reconsider your position. the spoiler effect is real and so are elections and their consequences. someone is getting put into that seat and you have the opportunity to influence the situation.
this post may be helpful, encourage you to check it out
Except they are on a train and the tracks only lead off the cliff
The most convincing argument I've heard for voting third party instead of for Genocide Joe is that liberals were more politically engaged and had more of an activist mentality under Trump.
Also, I've given consideration to the idea that "vote blue no matter who" types would likely vote for a more leftist Democrat than the ones currently being offered. In a long term strategy, if leftists refuse to vote for Democratic candidates who are too far right, then the Democrats would have to either try to appeal to the Trump demographic (which they do unfortunately do), or appeal to the leftist demographic until they get the leftist votes back.
just to clarify, do you subscribe to that first argument? it’s kind of a crazy one lol
like Americans who subscribe to pacifist beliefs were a lot more mobilized during the Vietnam War. that doesn’t especially mean the Vietnam War was good for world peace. 🤨
You said it yourself. They have two choices and they’re currently doing the worse one. What makes you think they’ll change their mind along the way?
Millions of people on the bus. Some vote to drive to place A. Some want to drive to place B. Neither is the cliff. But both A voters and B voters are using the bus-cliff false analogy to manipulate people to vote for their option.
In reality the chance that your vote would even affect the result is nearly zero.
Hundreds of millions of people on the bus. The difference between violent christofascism and at least a bare minimum respect for human rights is only made by a few million votes per election cycle, while a majority of voters still don’t vote at all.
And then you come in spreading fear uncertainty and doubt, encouraging more people not to vote.
Self examine whatever the heck it is you think you are doing because your position is untenable.
Guy B said "I'm gonna drive off the cliff, just the once." Out loud, in public, on television.
Fuck you.
Place A is "fuck everyone who isn't the same as us, they should die!"
Place B is "people different from us shouldn't die just for existing."
You: "both are the same."
This entire post is just about keeping things the way they are and never allowing anything meaningful to change.
Also I love that in this analogy that Biden is ice cream. Very genuine post.
wrong
In the way things are, we are capable of taking direct action. Under dump, itll be much harder when we are a de jure dictatorship with anyone left of reagan criminalized.
Abstaining does not mean "you are okay with either option" abstaining is a vote for people not having a choice.
Idk if it is same in us, but we have what is called blank voting, which is a vote that could be that. But not voting is a fascist statement.
The US doesn't have a parliamentary system. It is winner take all. There are no votes of no-confidence. There are no coalition governments. The winner of the electoral college which is NOT popular vote gets full control with no oversight.
If you vote for a party that does not win, you get zero representation, not partial or proportional representation.
So abstaining truly does mean you don't care.
I don't even think it's a democracy
or maybe, yk, hijack the bus to stop it because it is headed towards a cliff anyway, just the question is how fast it'll get there. This is what a revolution means.
see the FAQ in the post text
do you know how Mussolini, Salazar, Armas, Horthy, Pinochet or Franco came to power? And was the Silver Legion or KKK elected by anyone? Y'all will point out to Nazi Germany to justify participating in the legitimization of this evil plutocracy every few years, but if they are determined, they will try to take power no matter what and Jan 6 was just a proof (also NSDAP might have not won the March 5 elections if it wasn't for the terrorist tactics of staging the Reichstag fire and lastly, Proud Boys or any other fringe group is still nothing compared to SA/SS).
also under capitalism you buy power anyway and one person=one vote is a laughable myth already anyway. the real question is whom will the bourgeoisie support.
Harm reduction is fine, but faced with a view going that way, why not use ranked choice. First choice might be I've cream, but if you can't do that, perhaps going somewhere else works.
love ranked choice! harm reduction in the meantime cuz if it’s gonna be a bit of time to get that running :)
This argument is so archaic. The world isn't an us vs them.
This isn't about the world. It's about a specific conflict. Conflicts are us vs. them by definition. The takeover of the American gov't by increasingly corporatist and fascist leaders is absolutely them vs. the American people, but also affects everyone in the world.
There are two ways to win this conflict. 1) Violent revolution by disorganized leftists against the most powerful military the world has ever seen, 2) voting to prevent full-on fascism and limit corporatism while building class consciousness and organizing better. The second scenario is obviously more likely to succeed, given the current state of the American left.
I am not against voting, but the metaphor is really wrong and it doesn't communicate how voting changes almost nothing.
The problem is that Hilary supported Trump in pied piper strategy to have an easier person to run against. This means that you are doing exactly what they want you to do and they are protecting Trump because they need him to be the other candidate so you are forced to support ice cream made of genocide.
Democrats are terrorists now, that hold the entire country hostage and demand murder of civilians in Gaza for their financial gain. We don't have democracy either way, we will have genocide, wars and poverty either way. There really isn't that big of a difference, because they support each other so they can win against us, the people. They are the same team, funded by same people, running on same campaigns, running the same narrative of lesser evil vs evil, while actually working together.
Their next move is for democrats to support same policies that republicans do now, and fund even more extreme republicans so that can be their candidate. The strategy clearly works. Whatever you are voting against this elections, you will be forced to vote for the next.
Voting isn't going to fix that, but it will delay more of the shit we saw from 2016-2020. If you want to overthrow the government and see actual change happen, you can go first.
Why do we always assume the ones who don't vote aren't going to vote to run us off the cliff?
My frustration with the get out and vote push is that there is always this weird assumption that the ones who aren't voting are some how going to magically push things into the "right" direction. What if we are all better off if they don't vote?
Young people are less likely to vote than old people, and old people are more likely to be conservative. But even if that wasn't the case, more people voting is always better for a society.
What if I'm obstaining from voting because my subdivision of the bus will always vote for the cliff instead of the ice cream regardless of what I do
two part answer:
the president isn’t the only one being elected; you have opportunities for local representation as well
flipping cities and states from red to blue literally happens sometimes
hope this helps :)
In my primary election this month, we passed a resolution i was very keen on by less than a few hundred votes, by the current count. Theres more on there than dorito mussolini v status quo joe.
This argument (to me at least) assumes that the other 4 non-voters would have all voted for ice cream which, by just using basic logic, is false. If 3 out of 5 have already voted to drive off a cliff, one has to assume that at least 2 of the remaining 4 would also vote to drive off a cliff. Now this argument is back to square one... How do we find a solution which doesn't give 'driving off a cliff' as an option in the first place?