Ancient city-sized dragon that is eons older that any surviving historical text or man-made structures in the world, speaking to the dwarf that stands bravely before her: "Well ain't chu just the most precious lil' thang I ever did lay eyes on! Wut's yer name, sugah?"
Yer here ta kill me? Oh, honey, bless yer heart!
My papy were what you would call an elder dragon, so unless you got the fire power to take down Mrs. Tiamat you don't stand a chance against me, sugah.
So why don't you just cool your heels, I'll go make us some tea, and you can tell me about what's going on in the world these days.
No one decided that, if youβre looking at Tolkien based fantasy then of course itβs British because itβs British fantasy
All of the Asian fantasy Iβve seen has been populated by people of their respective country.
Everyone knows the Grim Reaper is Jamaican
This post is stupid, just write your desired fantasy
Not to mention the history and lore of such things are immense in well-documented European and Asian history. The majority of that fantasy stuff comes from ancient cultures and societies peppered around those geographical areas. I'm sure that would be much the same everywhere if it weren't for the lack of it being so heavily documented.
I don't want none of them there dragons yonder.
Got daym goblins stole mah moonshine.
I tell you what them there walking skeletons ain't right.
Yeah man talkin bout dang ol ππ΄π¬π―π‘ π¬π£ π±π₯π’ ππ«π‘π’ππ‘ and back o' the dang ol cave man. Talkin about fighting off dang ol skeletons with my bb gun man and dang ol sunuvaguns just come right back man. Just ain't right.
The correct voice order tonread this thread: Dale, Bill, Hank, Boomhauer.
This gave me an idea for a fantasy dramedy about hobbit moonshiners. Unfortunately, I'm not a writer so if anyone wants to take my four word pitch and run with it please do
It would be funny we had a fantasy world where twang accents are considered posh while British accents are considered casual like just imagine a knight saying "I'ma gonna go kill dis here dragon".
Why so much room for activities on this image?
cropping hard
It's free real-estate.
American accents sound too 'modern' because American English wasn't a thing until the Medieval period had long passed, and most fantasy is medieval or medieval-adjacent.
I'm all for broadening the use, though. I love that the Witcher games gave Geralt and the other Witchers of the School of the Wolf American accents. And Dragon Age (back when it was good) giving the dwarves American accents.
New England accent is actually closest to English of the Middle Ages.
I heard it was Southern English which was closest to Elizabethan English.
In any case, reality doesn't matter. Perceptions matter. Britain is an old country, and America is a new country - so in 'translating' an accent to a past period, we tend to see the accent of the 'old country' as more appropriate.
Pahk the caht.
Dahn ehn Cahmahlaht.
I wonder how they measure such a thing
I'm not sure how they measure how close an accent is. But, they can tell how old accents sounded by looking at songs and poetry for the meter and rhyme of words. If two words rhymed, they were probably pronounced the same way. For example, in Shakespeare's time they know that "proved" and "loved" rhymed.
well for one from times and places where there was a lot of casual writing there are just straight up people writing about how people speak, which is pretty convenient.
but additionally you can compare different recorded and modern speakers to figure out trends which let you at least vaguely reconstruct what people from the past would probably have sounded like.
and more specifically with new england that's just wholesale a bunch of people from england who settled a colony, so you effectively have a twin study where you can compare it to modern england.
American English wasnβt a thing until the Medieval period had long passed
Nor was modern British English. One of the defining features of modern British English is the lack of rhoticity (dropping the "r" sound), but that's very modern, only happening in the 19th century. They have managed to recreate how English sounded in Shakespeare's time by looking at words that were supposed to rhyme, and their meter. To me, it sounds like "pirate English".
Whether modern American English is closer to Shakespeare's English is a matter for debate. I'd say it's closer than RP, but not as close as some rural British accents.
That may be true for regional us dialects, but the core of American pronunciation is older than Received Pronunciation
Actually, modern American English apparently is closer to the English from old days than modern day British English is. Always found that to be an interesting tidbit.
Shakespeare apparently rhymes better in American accents than British ones, since it was written before the Great Vowel Shift. I'm not cultured enough to notice but I like this piece of trivia.
Same with the Quebec French
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This is actually a misconception. The modern English accents are a result of fashionable language of London. This developed after the United States of America was formed. So after the Middle ages. It's more likely English speakers in the middle ages sounded more American than English.
Xenoblade 2 had a nice use of the various English accents, generally each nation/group in the game used a particular accent (eg Mor Ardain = Scottish, villain group Torna spoke American English). One unique character (a blade) had a southern grew-up-on-a-farm accent.
American accents sound too βmodernβ because American English wasnβt a thing until the Medieval period had long passed, and most fantasy is medieval or medieval-adjacent.
OP mentions Australia, which wasn't even established as a penal colony until 5 years after the US was recognized as an independent nation under the Treaty of Paris.
Because its fantasy no ones fantasising about American accents.
I feel like the existence of Matthew McConaughey disproves this
Alright, alright, alright.
That's what I love about interstellar travel, everyone else gets older, I stay the same age.
The rule says that no one is fantasizing about American accents, but I see a lot of lawbreakers up in this house
He would make a good Gandalf in the future versions of the franchise
Why not? American culture and linguistics are extremely popular around the world.
Maybe since modern America is so young, people dont associate it to fantasy?
Alternatively, Native American accents aren't uncommon in fantasy I feel like
I imagine it's because Americans use foreign accents to make the fantasy more foreign itself. If the wizard who cast a spell to alter the passage of time starts talking like the dude that runs the gas station on the corner, maybe it takes away some of the magic.
Good point, Avatar is basically US Marines in spaaaaace vs. spaaaace Pocahontas sci-fi/fantasy.
Yeah sure buddy, "American Culture" is extremely popular. It isn't that you people just try to appropriate the culture of the migrants lol
Damn, someone got you with a downvote within 3 minutes of posting. That shit was quick, didn't think the Fediverse got down like that. Wasn't me for the record
But, you don't believe the "American Culture" is popular? I'd be real interested in a counter argument to the fact it is popular. It's pretty easy to show that American media and politics are pretty discussed or enjoyed around the world.
And I'm not sure what you mean about us appropriating from migrants. Do you consider every American a migrant due to the fact that America is so young?
Something like the last thing you said. I mean they killed most of their natives and the traditions they had, I'm sure there's even more latinos there that there is people decending from the native nations.
So if their "culture" didn't came from their own land, then from where? People who came there: Migrants.
Edit: Mispellings (if it isn't clear enough, english is not my first language lol).
What else do they have? Their whole nation is based on mass immigration from other countries
hollywood and americas massive industry has effectively given it a chokehold on western culture, to the point where western culture practically just means 'cultures that take their cue from the usa'
But the USA has no real culture, what culture are they exporting if not for the ones they're stealing? Lol
@Belzebubulubu All of Jazz plus Rock and Roll and Hip Hop?
Apparently, Tolkien's dwarven language just naturally works well with a Scottish accent. Earlier radio, tv, readings leant into this and other writings including fantasy dwarves followed suit.
It just sounds right.
Dwarves have American accents in Dragon Age!
Because they save money on the makeup budget
I lol'd.
You can't pick a Scottish accent for your character in Baldurs Gate 3 and now my Dwarf just sounds British. It sounds, well... off
Fantasy is based upon the middle ages.
During the middle ages the US did not exist.
Iroquois Confederacy would like a word....
The middle ages ended in 1453 with the fall of Constantinople, which coincided with the birth of the Renaissance in Italy having already taken place.
The Iroquois Confederacy was founded (most likely) in the 1500s, with the earliest record of the first capital being in 1609.
The United States itself was founded in the 1700s.
Their comment was correct, the Iroquois Confederacy was founded during the age of the Renaissance and our modern conception of America came much later
Yeah I was just being silly
How dare you
Pretty sure because the βoriginalβ fantasy was written as a false history for England (LoTR was this). So it makes sense that the people would bear an English accent
I hope one day we can have a (respectful) mainstream fantasy world for Native America, It could be so cool.
Not exactly what you're looking for, but most characters in A Wizard of Earthsea resemble Native Americans.
Do the books have accents?
I'll admit I haven't read them, but I imagine the original version was British English with all the extra U's and such.
Could be Canadian.
@WoodenBleachers But his sources were Norse, primarily, so by extension the argument can be made that the characters should all have Scandinavian accents.
Thatβs cool. I wouldnβt mind fantasy characters having accents (itβs fantasy after all) just providing context for why itβs predominantly English
No, only folks that never read what Tolkien said about LotR think it is a fake History for England.
I read the Silmarillion, he was sad about the fact that England had no real βmythologyβ so he made his own
Because New Zealand is a fantasy hence why it doesn't exist on many world maps.
Let's see.
Dwarves: Billy-Bob Thornton's accent from Sling Blade.
Transatlantic for the elves is a stroke of fucking genius
Edit: Iβd also like to advocate for southern Appalachian for hobbits, prohibition era gangsters for orcs, and Midwestern for Tom Bombadil specifically
Most have Eurocentric accents because those are the areas the various legends and stories originated.
Various depictions of leprechauns make them pretty much Irish rednecks. I love Mad Sweeney's depiction in American Gods.
We do, they just tend to be the Orcs or Goblins lol
I would like to take this moment recommend Not Another D&D Podcast solely because of the Crick Elves
Seconded, for the Russian frost Dwarves.
Fuck you, I love you, eat a rat
Tolkien, the father of modern fantasy based Middle Earth a lot on old Britain and the affects industrialisation was having.
I'd love to see more fantasy based on Native American mythology for sure.
I absolutely despise how 99% of native American fantasy representation in media is some variation of a wendigo.
Native American culture is slept on, fr.
Aztec sacrificing intensifies in the background unnoticed
Geralt has an American accent in the games.
In Polish?
Well. No, probably not, but I haven't checked.
Because for fantasy we think of middle ages, and middle ages america is full of natives, not a single English speaker in sight
In Dragon Age, the dwarves speak with an American accent, which was pretty unique during the time.
But Shale has an American accent! Ohhhhhh...
Yes we collectively decided it. We all had a big vote, but you weren't invited.
I know you are making fun and all, but things like this are indeed reproduced.
Basicly it's a process of cultural and collective copy and pasting, where media and indivulas reproduce a concept by either activly using it (or not) or passives acepting it.
It's a bit more complex than that, but you probably get the idea.
Thanks for educating me πππ
I mean go and watch true blood or read the books ots based off of ?
Ironically the main actress is a New Zealander.
Also wasn't aware aussie/kiwi accents were a fantasy trope, especially as those countries didn't really participate in the medieval period.
There is a popular lit rpg series that is all kiwi
The first few seasons, anyways
True Blood is amazing, and it's deeply enhanced by the hick accents and the protagonist being named Sookie Stackhouse. It's well worth a watch!
Modern fantasy is heavily based on ancient European fairytales and folklore
So the characters should sound like Scandinavian or Germanic people? English didn't even exist in its modern form until the 1600s.
Also, you know... Latin and Ancient Greek.
It's not like Germanic or Scandinavian languages haven't changed during that time
Icelandic hasn't changed as much as other languages. Plus we are just trying to get as close as possible.
Basically the cultured elves should be speaking Ancient Greek, men can speak with Germanic accents, and dwarves Icelandic. That makes more sense than everyone just speaking different English accents.
Good lord no. Here in the US I hear plenty of that. It's the last thing I want to hear in a fantasy.
If you watch Critical Role I like Imogen's accent.
And Fjord
Why?
It's by and large the dialect of the uneducated and the impoverished right leaning southerners and widwesterners that are hurting themselves and others by supporting the GOP and spreading hate and discrimination. Fully aware that is a stereotype, but I see enough of it in real life that for me that accent just has a negative connotation.
The German translation of Baldur's Gate decided for some reason that elves spoke in an east-German accent. Imagine Legolas sounding like he was from Texas.
YEE-HAW, I'm the FASTEST BOW IN THESE HERE WOODS
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I'm a bit torn on this. On the one hand: you're completely right. On the other: It sounded goofy as fuck.
But missing variety in dialects in German dubs is something I really dislike. Everyone in German dubs sounds like they're from Hannover.
They don't just sound like they're from Hannover. They sound like they're a Hannover stereotype. Every fucking vowel is sounded out completely. Like, I'm from Mecklenburg Vorpommern, we speak pretty clear Hochdeutsch here for the most part and it still all sounds stilted as fuck to me.
It also doesn't help that they always use their "voice actor" voice when dubbong live action, where the original actors will use a more normal/natural voice compared to when they're doing VA for a cartoon or something. Then the audio mixing is all fucked and all semblance of a natural conversation is lost. Genuinely the only thing I can watch in German is animated stuff.
Yup. I really hate that notion that people think that one dialect is "normal" and the other ways to speak are degenerated deviations for the underclass. Everyone has a dialect and they're all equally valid.
You can't even watch the Sendung mit der Maus? ;_;
Oh no, German productions are fine, it's just dubs. They don't fuck up the audio on their own productions.
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Oh god, which East German? Sachsen? Berlin-Brandenburg?
I think it was Sachsen.
A great example of this is Not Another D&D Podcast, a comedy D&D podcast. The first campaign has a player character who sounds like sheβs from Appalachia!
And she has one of the best Possum familiars ever!
Yes! (Also, hi fellow NADDpole! Thereβs at least two of us here! Lol)
At least three, PawPaw and Moonshine were my first though reading this post
"y'all want some fairy dust?"
I did a dnd campaign once where it had a Louisiana bayou theme. Rednecks? Southern belles, and swamp gnomes with Cajun French accents. Was a lot of fun!
Fantasy species are supposed to be ancient.
America is a toddler of a nation, in age and behavior.
But back then they just called fantasy speech sprech.
Careful what you wish for. I believe itβs in the first book* of Wheel of Time that suddenly there's a group of "darkfriends"** (basically worshippers of the ultimate evil) who all speak in a dialect that sounds like they're from rural Georgia.
Even with Rosamund Pike doing a fantastic job reading the audio book, that was immersion breaking as fuck π
*Second book
** not all darkfriends, see reply below
the seanchan are described as having a drawl, but you're not introduced to them until book2 and they're not uniformly darkfriends.
Sorry, my ADHD memory lol. I'm currently at book 3 and knew for sure that it was one of the previous ones π
ah. well i haven't heard rosamund's narration, but the previous recordings by michael kramer and kate redding did not have either the stereotypical british accent nor did they stretch to give the seanchan a southerndrawl. you might find that less jarring if you can get past the first few books where they seem to never pre-read and, so, frequently misstep in meter or emphasis and sometimes just mispronounce names and places altogether.
edit
an example of stumbling over meter or emphasis:
*i* did not take the money
i did *not* take the money
i did not *take* the money
i did not take the *money*
Nah, they don't appear that much so far and as I said she's doing a fantastic job overall so I'm gonna stick with her. Thanks anyway π
I have to admit, I want to hear the story of aemons field as read by moraine.
thereβs a group of βdarkfriendsβ ... who all speak in a dialect that sounds like theyβre from rural Georgia
Not sure how you got that impression from reading a book. It's not like he references rural Georgia.
By listening to the audio book version. The point about Rosamund Pike reading should have been a clue for you
in the first book
When people talk about books, they generally mean books, not audio books. Yes, the narrator of an audio book can choose to use a certain accent, but that's not necessarily what the author intended. In this case, the author didn't make any suggestion that the characters sound like that, it was a choice made by Ms. Pike or by the audio book director.
You can't say that the characters in the book have that accent, all you can say is that in the audio book they're given that accent.
When people talk about books, they generally mean books, not audio books
Audio books are books and I made it clear which kind of book I was talking about, as mentioning the excellent reader would only make sense in the context of that medium or a public reading, which is usually done by the author.
In this case, the author didn't make any suggestion that the characters sound like that
As per the other guy replying, that's flat out false as the text describes them as having a drawl. It doesn't specify Georgia specifically, but suggests specific dialect groups, of which Southern American English is the one most people worldwide associate with a drawl.
You can't say that the characters in the book have that accent, all you can say is that in the audio book they're given that accent.
Wrong again. The audio book IS the book. It's a different way to express the same text.
You came in hot without knowing what you're talking about. It's ok. That happens to most of us sometimes. Just own up to your mistakes in stead of doubling down like a Republican.
I made it clear which kind of book I was talking about
No, you said " I believe itβs in the first book* of Wheel of Time". Without context that refers to... you know, the book. Not the audio book.
You then said: "who all speak in a dialect that sounds like theyβre from rural Georgia". You had not mentioned audio books at all at that point. Your claim was that the books had multiple characters who all sounded like they were from rural Georgia.
Your first mention of the audio book was in the next paragraph. If you had wanted to make it clear you were talking about her choice to interpret the accent that way, a reasonable way to phrase it would have been: "In the audio book for one of the Wheel of Time books, Rosamund Pike chooses to interpret their accent as if it were a rural Georgia accent, and that was immersion breaking."
The way you actually phrased it was as if the accent was carefully described as if it were a rural Georgian accent in the book, and that she faithfully interpreted that for the audio book. Instead, what the book said was that it was a drawl. But, a drawl can be any slow, diphthong-heavy dialect. There are multiple English drawls in the world, including multiple drawls within England.
Do you even know what a drawl is?
It doesn't mean "a dialect that sounds like theyβre from rural Georgia". All it is is an accent that is slower with longer vowel sounds and more diphthongs. Yes, rural Georgia might count, but so would broad Australian, New Zealand, Texas, Louisiana, even some maritime accents in Canada. In England, the posh aristocratic accent and the Liverpool accent are considered drawls. In fact, the exaggerated slow and calm tone that pilots use over the intercom is considered a drawl, but one associated with a job, not a region.
Wrong again. The audio book IS the book.
The audio book is the audio book adaptation of the book. The books are The Eye of the World, The Great Hunt, The Dragon Reborn, etc. written by Robert Jordan. Those are the definitive words on the characters and how they sound. Your confusion over the accent applies only to the adaptation, not the original book.
Fuck it. You're still wrong but it's not worth my time and effort to further dumb already simple concepts down so you can understand them. Have the day you deserve.
Ha. You can't admit you're wrong, but you also can't find any fault in my argument, so you pretend...
Hey, I found a picture of you!
You're right, I do shed light on things. Thanks for noticing. Is this your way of admitting you were wrong?
Nope, it's a projector projecting. Like you.
Ah, projecting information into the darkness, which you refuse to look at.
As an Irish person born in the six counties of Ireland the British claim as "Northern Ireland", I can assure you that although our identity is complex, we have an international treaty (the Good Friday Agreement) between Britain and Ireland which recognises the residents of this part of Ireland have the right to identify as Irish, OR British OR both.
What's not in dispute is that Ireland has been partitioned and NI has existed for barely 100 years, and that our accents predate this political divide and are distinctly geographical - people from the island of Ireland have Irish accents
You can identify however you wish no treaty changes that. I'm from the other bit of Britain that didn't want to leave the EU and the same prime minister that worked out the gfa also gave me my own parliament.
I have my own complex feelings when it comes to my relationship with Britain yet do not identity as British. Those feelings are nowhere near as complex as Ireland.
You admitted it yourself that was all I stated. Like it or not ni is governed by the same central spot and most of the world regards both island as the British Isles even though the roi does not.
So to get back to the only thing to stated.
It's complicated
Substitute complicated with disputed and I agree lol.
The Irish Government strongly dispute the term British Isles being applied against our wishes to this island, as it was invented to legitimise a land claim, not innocently by any neutral geographic body.
Unlike Scotland we've a treaty which now sets out our democratic pathway to getting the British government to finish their withdraw from our island, but we're no closer to holding the vote (and don't control the trigger).
Still raw Scotland missed their chance, but that too is a complicated topic!
Yeh I'm pretty salty about it myself. Even more so with the current shit show.
I remember growing up in the 80s and what that was to this day people I know personally directly involved have complex thoughts in the mess.
On the topic of the geographical status of the island I don't know close enough to anything to have an opinion so am intentionally chasing choosing my words carefully.
Edit apparently autocorrect is less careful on the word choice
No worries, I'm not trying to trick you, you of course are right, it's complicated.
Back to the original topic, what really gets me is shows like Rings of Power double down on Tolkien classism by accent - intelligent elegant Elf's in posh English, common men in northern English, rough ginger dwarfs in Scottish and then bottom of the class - mud dwelling, starving savage hobbits with Irish accents
Yeh it does get old. I try to take solis that when Holywood needs a bastard or a villain it's usually that posh English twat.
It would be nice if they mixed it up or made the accents fairly agnostic
Has nobody here seen The Wizard of Oz?
Dwarves in the Dragon Age universe have an US-American accent.
They made at least one "southern fantasy" show, it was called Man in the High Castle based on work by American fantasy writer Phillip K Dick.
.....that would be science fiction. Dick was a sci-fi writer.
Ancient city-sized dragon that is eons older that any surviving historical text or man-made structures in the world, speaking to the dwarf that stands bravely before her: "Well ain't chu just the most precious lil' thang I ever did lay eyes on! Wut's yer name, sugah?"
Yer here ta kill me? Oh, honey, bless yer heart!
My papy were what you would call an elder dragon, so unless you got the fire power to take down Mrs. Tiamat you don't stand a chance against me, sugah.
So why don't you just cool your heels, I'll go make us some tea, and you can tell me about what's going on in the world these days.
No one decided that, if youβre looking at Tolkien based fantasy then of course itβs British because itβs British fantasy
All of the Asian fantasy Iβve seen has been populated by people of their respective country.
Everyone knows the Grim Reaper is Jamaican
This post is stupid, just write your desired fantasy
He doesn't sound very Jamaican to me
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KUV92xAxVk4&pp=ygUMQmVhdCBvZiBncmlt
True. I never interpreted those all caps as having an accent, I just had them as words so heavy you heard them with your bones, not your ears.
This Jamaican Grim Reaper thing might have some merit
https://youtu.be/DP_2664OXks?si=oxuSJBd10EMs6tCq
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He doesn't sound very Jamaican to me
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Yesh. This is so cringe.
Not to mention the history and lore of such things are immense in well-documented European and Asian history. The majority of that fantasy stuff comes from ancient cultures and societies peppered around those geographical areas. I'm sure that would be much the same everywhere if it weren't for the lack of it being so heavily documented.
I don't want none of them there dragons yonder.
Got daym goblins stole mah moonshine.
I tell you what them there walking skeletons ain't right.
Yeah man talkin bout dang ol ππ΄π¬π―π‘ π¬π£ π±π₯π’ ππ«π‘π’ππ‘ and back o' the dang ol cave man. Talkin about fighting off dang ol skeletons with my bb gun man and dang ol sunuvaguns just come right back man. Just ain't right.
The correct voice order tonread this thread: Dale, Bill, Hank, Boomhauer.
I reckon
This gave me an idea for a fantasy dramedy about hobbit moonshiners. Unfortunately, I'm not a writer so if anyone wants to take my four word pitch and run with it please do
Hey! We don't take kindly to dragons 'round here!
What better way to break immersion than have your quest giver start screaming GO ON GIT
You meet a bedraggled old paladin who beseeches you to just and righteous action by the following words...
This is some Bollywood shit
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It would be funny we had a fantasy world where twang accents are considered posh while British accents are considered casual like just imagine a knight saying "I'ma gonna go kill dis here dragon".
Why so much room for activities on this image?
cropping hard
It's free real-estate.
American accents sound too 'modern' because American English wasn't a thing until the Medieval period had long passed, and most fantasy is medieval or medieval-adjacent.
I'm all for broadening the use, though. I love that the Witcher games gave Geralt and the other Witchers of the School of the Wolf American accents. And Dragon Age (back when it was good) giving the dwarves American accents.
New England accent is actually closest to English of the Middle Ages.
I heard it was Southern English which was closest to Elizabethan English.
In any case, reality doesn't matter. Perceptions matter. Britain is an old country, and America is a new country - so in 'translating' an accent to a past period, we tend to see the accent of the 'old country' as more appropriate.
Pahk the caht.
Dahn ehn Cahmahlaht.
I wonder how they measure such a thing
I'm not sure how they measure how close an accent is. But, they can tell how old accents sounded by looking at songs and poetry for the meter and rhyme of words. If two words rhymed, they were probably pronounced the same way. For example, in Shakespeare's time they know that "proved" and "loved" rhymed.
well for one from times and places where there was a lot of casual writing there are just straight up people writing about how people speak, which is pretty convenient.
but additionally you can compare different recorded and modern speakers to figure out trends which let you at least vaguely reconstruct what people from the past would probably have sounded like.
and more specifically with new england that's just wholesale a bunch of people from england who settled a colony, so you effectively have a twin study where you can compare it to modern england.
Nor was modern British English. One of the defining features of modern British English is the lack of rhoticity (dropping the "r" sound), but that's very modern, only happening in the 19th century. They have managed to recreate how English sounded in Shakespeare's time by looking at words that were supposed to rhyme, and their meter. To me, it sounds like "pirate English".
https://youtu.be/uQc5ZpAoU4c?t=299
Whether modern American English is closer to Shakespeare's English is a matter for debate. I'd say it's closer than RP, but not as close as some rural British accents.
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That may be true for regional us dialects, but the core of American pronunciation is older than Received Pronunciation
Actually, modern American English apparently is closer to the English from old days than modern day British English is. Always found that to be an interesting tidbit.
Shakespeare apparently rhymes better in American accents than British ones, since it was written before the Great Vowel Shift. I'm not cultured enough to notice but I like this piece of trivia.
Same with the Quebec French
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This is actually a misconception. The modern English accents are a result of fashionable language of London. This developed after the United States of America was formed. So after the Middle ages. It's more likely English speakers in the middle ages sounded more American than English.
Xenoblade 2 had a nice use of the various English accents, generally each nation/group in the game used a particular accent (eg Mor Ardain = Scottish, villain group Torna spoke American English). One unique character (a blade) had a southern grew-up-on-a-farm accent.
OP mentions Australia, which wasn't even established as a penal colony until 5 years after the US was recognized as an independent nation under the Treaty of Paris.
Because its fantasy no ones fantasising about American accents.
I feel like the existence of Matthew McConaughey disproves this
Alright, alright, alright.
That's what I love about interstellar travel, everyone else gets older, I stay the same age.
The rule says that no one is fantasizing about American accents, but I see a lot of lawbreakers up in this house
He would make a good Gandalf in the future versions of the franchise
Why not? American culture and linguistics are extremely popular around the world.
Maybe since modern America is so young, people dont associate it to fantasy?
Alternatively, Native American accents aren't uncommon in fantasy I feel like
I imagine it's because Americans use foreign accents to make the fantasy more foreign itself. If the wizard who cast a spell to alter the passage of time starts talking like the dude that runs the gas station on the corner, maybe it takes away some of the magic.
Good point, Avatar is basically US Marines in spaaaaace vs. spaaaace Pocahontas sci-fi/fantasy.
Yeah sure buddy, "American Culture" is extremely popular. It isn't that you people just try to appropriate the culture of the migrants lol
Damn, someone got you with a downvote within 3 minutes of posting. That shit was quick, didn't think the Fediverse got down like that. Wasn't me for the record
But, you don't believe the "American Culture" is popular? I'd be real interested in a counter argument to the fact it is popular. It's pretty easy to show that American media and politics are pretty discussed or enjoyed around the world.
And I'm not sure what you mean about us appropriating from migrants. Do you consider every American a migrant due to the fact that America is so young?
Something like the last thing you said. I mean they killed most of their natives and the traditions they had, I'm sure there's even more latinos there that there is people decending from the native nations.
So if their "culture" didn't came from their own land, then from where? People who came there: Migrants.
Edit: Mispellings (if it isn't clear enough, english is not my first language lol).
What else do they have? Their whole nation is based on mass immigration from other countries
TouchΓ©
hollywood and americas massive industry has effectively given it a chokehold on western culture, to the point where western culture practically just means 'cultures that take their cue from the usa'
But the USA has no real culture, what culture are they exporting if not for the ones they're stealing? Lol
@Belzebubulubu All of Jazz plus Rock and Roll and Hip Hop?
@FlyingSquid @gmtom @mob @Lols
Orc: "Y'all lil fellers in the wrong gotdam place I reckon. You boys jus' git on up in them rocks and take them panties right off."
https://youtu.be/aNyjtqlpJH4
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Also, why are all dwarfs Scottish?
Because both are proud and mountanious nations?
Apparently, Tolkien's dwarven language just naturally works well with a Scottish accent. Earlier radio, tv, readings leant into this and other writings including fantasy dwarves followed suit.
It just sounds right.
Dwarves have American accents in Dragon Age!
Because they save money on the makeup budget
I lol'd.
You can't pick a Scottish accent for your character in Baldurs Gate 3 and now my Dwarf just sounds British. It sounds, well... off
Fantasy is based upon the middle ages.
During the middle ages the US did not exist.
Iroquois Confederacy would like a word....
The middle ages ended in 1453 with the fall of Constantinople, which coincided with the birth of the Renaissance in Italy having already taken place.
The Iroquois Confederacy was founded (most likely) in the 1500s, with the earliest record of the first capital being in 1609.
The United States itself was founded in the 1700s.
Their comment was correct, the Iroquois Confederacy was founded during the age of the Renaissance and our modern conception of America came much later
Yeah I was just being silly
How dare you
Pretty sure because the βoriginalβ fantasy was written as a false history for England (LoTR was this). So it makes sense that the people would bear an English accent
I hope one day we can have a (respectful) mainstream fantasy world for Native America, It could be so cool.
Not exactly what you're looking for, but most characters in A Wizard of Earthsea resemble Native Americans.
Do the books have accents?
I'll admit I haven't read them, but I imagine the original version was British English with all the extra U's and such.
Could be Canadian.
@WoodenBleachers But his sources were Norse, primarily, so by extension the argument can be made that the characters should all have Scandinavian accents.
@FlyingSquid
Thatβs cool. I wouldnβt mind fantasy characters having accents (itβs fantasy after all) just providing context for why itβs predominantly English
No, only folks that never read what Tolkien said about LotR think it is a fake History for England.
I read the Silmarillion, he was sad about the fact that England had no real βmythologyβ so he made his own
Because New Zealand is a fantasy hence why it doesn't exist on many world maps.
Let's see.
Dwarves: Billy-Bob Thornton's accent from Sling Blade.
Elves: Transatlantic accent. Used by stars in the 1930s/1940s.
Hobbits: Cajun. Makes sense, they love food, live a rural life, etc.
Orcs: NYC accent
Goblins: Chicago Accent
Or, if you wanted to go international.
Dwarves: Gotta go with the classic. Glasgow.
Elves: South African. I think it can sound smart but foreign-influenced, as elves should.
Hobbits: Aussie
Orcs: NYC accent again
Goblins: Newfoundland accent
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Sling Blade
Transatlantic accent
Cajun
NYC accent
Chicago Accent
Glasgow
South African.
Aussie
NYC accent
Newfoundland accent
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Transatlantic for the elves is a stroke of fucking genius
Edit: Iβd also like to advocate for southern Appalachian for hobbits, prohibition era gangsters for orcs, and Midwestern for Tom Bombadil specifically
Most have Eurocentric accents because those are the areas the various legends and stories originated.
Various depictions of leprechauns make them pretty much Irish rednecks. I love Mad Sweeney's depiction in American Gods.
We do, they just tend to be the Orcs or Goblins lol
I would like to take this moment recommend Not Another D&D Podcast solely because of the Crick Elves
Seconded, for the Russian frost Dwarves.
Fuck you, I love you, eat a rat
Tolkien, the father of modern fantasy based Middle Earth a lot on old Britain and the affects industrialisation was having.
I'd love to see more fantasy based on Native American mythology for sure.
I absolutely despise how 99% of native American fantasy representation in media is some variation of a wendigo.
Native American culture is slept on, fr.
Aztec sacrificing intensifies in the background unnoticed
Geralt has an American accent in the games.
In Polish?
Well. No, probably not, but I haven't checked.
Because for fantasy we think of middle ages, and middle ages america is full of natives, not a single English speaker in sight
In Dragon Age, the dwarves speak with an American accent, which was pretty unique during the time.
But Shale has an American accent! Ohhhhhh...
Yes we collectively decided it. We all had a big vote, but you weren't invited.
I know you are making fun and all, but things like this are indeed reproduced.
Basicly it's a process of cultural and collective copy and pasting, where media and indivulas reproduce a concept by either activly using it (or not) or passives acepting it.
It's a bit more complex than that, but you probably get the idea.
Thanks for educating me πππ
I mean go and watch true blood or read the books ots based off of ?
Ironically the main actress is a New Zealander.
Also wasn't aware aussie/kiwi accents were a fantasy trope, especially as those countries didn't really participate in the medieval period.
There is a popular lit rpg series that is all kiwi
The first few seasons, anyways
True Blood is amazing, and it's deeply enhanced by the hick accents and the protagonist being named Sookie Stackhouse. It's well worth a watch!
Modern fantasy is heavily based on ancient European fairytales and folklore
So the characters should sound like Scandinavian or Germanic people? English didn't even exist in its modern form until the 1600s.
Also, you know... Latin and Ancient Greek.
It's not like Germanic or Scandinavian languages haven't changed during that time
Icelandic hasn't changed as much as other languages. Plus we are just trying to get as close as possible.
Basically the cultured elves should be speaking Ancient Greek, men can speak with Germanic accents, and dwarves Icelandic. That makes more sense than everyone just speaking different English accents.
Good lord no. Here in the US I hear plenty of that. It's the last thing I want to hear in a fantasy.
If you watch Critical Role I like Imogen's accent.
And Fjord
Why?
It's by and large the dialect of the uneducated and the impoverished right leaning southerners and widwesterners that are hurting themselves and others by supporting the GOP and spreading hate and discrimination. Fully aware that is a stereotype, but I see enough of it in real life that for me that accent just has a negative connotation.
The German translation of Baldur's Gate decided for some reason that elves spoke in an east-German accent. Imagine Legolas sounding like he was from Texas.
YEE-HAW, I'm the FASTEST BOW IN THESE HERE WOODS
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I'm a bit torn on this. On the one hand: you're completely right. On the other: It sounded goofy as fuck.
But missing variety in dialects in German dubs is something I really dislike. Everyone in German dubs sounds like they're from Hannover.
They don't just sound like they're from Hannover. They sound like they're a Hannover stereotype. Every fucking vowel is sounded out completely. Like, I'm from Mecklenburg Vorpommern, we speak pretty clear Hochdeutsch here for the most part and it still all sounds stilted as fuck to me.
It also doesn't help that they always use their "voice actor" voice when dubbong live action, where the original actors will use a more normal/natural voice compared to when they're doing VA for a cartoon or something. Then the audio mixing is all fucked and all semblance of a natural conversation is lost. Genuinely the only thing I can watch in German is animated stuff.
Yup. I really hate that notion that people think that one dialect is "normal" and the other ways to speak are degenerated deviations for the underclass. Everyone has a dialect and they're all equally valid.
You can't even watch the Sendung mit der Maus? ;_;
Oh no, German productions are fine, it's just dubs. They don't fuck up the audio on their own productions.
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Oh god, which East German? Sachsen? Berlin-Brandenburg?
I think it was Sachsen.
A great example of this is Not Another D&D Podcast, a comedy D&D podcast. The first campaign has a player character who sounds like sheβs from Appalachia!
And she has one of the best Possum familiars ever!
Yes! (Also, hi fellow NADDpole! Thereβs at least two of us here! Lol)
At least three, PawPaw and Moonshine were my first though reading this post
"y'all want some fairy dust?"
I did a dnd campaign once where it had a Louisiana bayou theme. Rednecks? Southern belles, and swamp gnomes with Cajun French accents. Was a lot of fun!
Fantasy species are supposed to be ancient.
America is a toddler of a nation, in age and behavior.
But back then they just called fantasy speech sprech.
I give you Tex of the Black Pants Legion talking about playing D&D in rural Texas. We gonna praise Palor up in hyaugh!
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Because English speaking viewers don't want to read subtitles
Do you know where Tennessee is?
Yes. Subtitles would still be required
The Seanchan would like a slowly drawled word.
Imperial conquerors from across the sea with slave sorceresses and Texan accents.
Wheel of Time is top tier.
There's a DnD podcast called "Not Another DnD Podcast", where one of the characters is a redneck elf. That one's played by Emily Axford, who's also part of D20: https://open.spotify.com/show/5GcTIDkgnB9wP6CmUyOSqa?si=2FX7y8bcTfitOVluc7pVcw
Careful what you wish for. I believe itβs in the first book* of Wheel of Time that suddenly there's a group of "darkfriends"** (basically worshippers of the ultimate evil) who all speak in a dialect that sounds like they're from rural Georgia.
Even with Rosamund Pike doing a fantastic job reading the audio book, that was immersion breaking as fuck π
*Second book
** not all darkfriends, see reply below
the seanchan are described as having a drawl, but you're not introduced to them until book2 and they're not uniformly darkfriends.
Sorry, my ADHD memory lol. I'm currently at book 3 and knew for sure that it was one of the previous ones π
ah. well i haven't heard rosamund's narration, but the previous recordings by michael kramer and kate redding did not have either the stereotypical british accent nor did they stretch to give the seanchan a southerndrawl. you might find that less jarring if you can get past the first few books where they seem to never pre-read and, so, frequently misstep in meter or emphasis and sometimes just mispronounce names and places altogether.
edit
an example of stumbling over meter or emphasis:
Nah, they don't appear that much so far and as I said she's doing a fantastic job overall so I'm gonna stick with her. Thanks anyway π
I have to admit, I want to hear the story of aemons field as read by moraine.
Not sure how you got that impression from reading a book. It's not like he references rural Georgia.
By listening to the audio book version. The point about Rosamund Pike reading should have been a clue for you
When people talk about books, they generally mean books, not audio books. Yes, the narrator of an audio book can choose to use a certain accent, but that's not necessarily what the author intended. In this case, the author didn't make any suggestion that the characters sound like that, it was a choice made by Ms. Pike or by the audio book director.
You can't say that the characters in the book have that accent, all you can say is that in the audio book they're given that accent.
Audio books are books and I made it clear which kind of book I was talking about, as mentioning the excellent reader would only make sense in the context of that medium or a public reading, which is usually done by the author.
As per the other guy replying, that's flat out false as the text describes them as having a drawl. It doesn't specify Georgia specifically, but suggests specific dialect groups, of which Southern American English is the one most people worldwide associate with a drawl.
Wrong again. The audio book IS the book. It's a different way to express the same text.
You came in hot without knowing what you're talking about. It's ok. That happens to most of us sometimes. Just own up to your mistakes in stead of doubling down like a Republican.
No, you said " I believe itβs in the first book* of Wheel of Time". Without context that refers to... you know, the book. Not the audio book.
You then said: "who all speak in a dialect that sounds like theyβre from rural Georgia". You had not mentioned audio books at all at that point. Your claim was that the books had multiple characters who all sounded like they were from rural Georgia.
Your first mention of the audio book was in the next paragraph. If you had wanted to make it clear you were talking about her choice to interpret the accent that way, a reasonable way to phrase it would have been: "In the audio book for one of the Wheel of Time books, Rosamund Pike chooses to interpret their accent as if it were a rural Georgia accent, and that was immersion breaking."
The way you actually phrased it was as if the accent was carefully described as if it were a rural Georgian accent in the book, and that she faithfully interpreted that for the audio book. Instead, what the book said was that it was a drawl. But, a drawl can be any slow, diphthong-heavy dialect. There are multiple English drawls in the world, including multiple drawls within England.
Do you even know what a drawl is?
It doesn't mean "a dialect that sounds like theyβre from rural Georgia". All it is is an accent that is slower with longer vowel sounds and more diphthongs. Yes, rural Georgia might count, but so would broad Australian, New Zealand, Texas, Louisiana, even some maritime accents in Canada. In England, the posh aristocratic accent and the Liverpool accent are considered drawls. In fact, the exaggerated slow and calm tone that pilots use over the intercom is considered a drawl, but one associated with a job, not a region.
The audio book is the audio book adaptation of the book. The books are The Eye of the World, The Great Hunt, The Dragon Reborn, etc. written by Robert Jordan. Those are the definitive words on the characters and how they sound. Your confusion over the accent applies only to the adaptation, not the original book.
Fuck it. You're still wrong but it's not worth my time and effort to further dumb already simple concepts down so you can understand them. Have the day you deserve.
Ha. You can't admit you're wrong, but you also can't find any fault in my argument, so you pretend...
Hey, I found a picture of you!
You're right, I do shed light on things. Thanks for noticing. Is this your way of admitting you were wrong?
Nope, it's a projector projecting. Like you.
Ah, projecting information into the darkness, which you refuse to look at.
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posh aristocratic accent
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Monsters, Inc. Fairy trailer trash with a southern accent. You're welcome.
Theres not enough guns in Fantasy stories to warrant a redneck accent
I know of one.
Ever been to Tennessee? You really don't want that lol
An elf with a heavy Southern California accent.
Valley Girl Elf. Actually, I think I've seen that done somewhere... π€
Definitely listen to the audible book The Hum and the Shiver it has fairies in the Appalachian mountains and definitely has red-neck voiced fairies.
guess they missed True Blood
So you want Neil Stephen's American gods? got it
Neil Gaiman
British Scottish Welsh (Irish is complicated)?
I have English being conflated with British but never the other way round.
I have no idea how I feel about this
Irish isn't complicated - we're a separate island from Britain.
Wrong.
Northern Ireland is brittish. Hence the cimplicated
Also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_naming
As an Irish person born in the six counties of Ireland the British claim as "Northern Ireland", I can assure you that although our identity is complex, we have an international treaty (the Good Friday Agreement) between Britain and Ireland which recognises the residents of this part of Ireland have the right to identify as Irish, OR British OR both.
What's not in dispute is that Ireland has been partitioned and NI has existed for barely 100 years, and that our accents predate this political divide and are distinctly geographical - people from the island of Ireland have Irish accents
You can identify however you wish no treaty changes that. I'm from the other bit of Britain that didn't want to leave the EU and the same prime minister that worked out the gfa also gave me my own parliament.
I have my own complex feelings when it comes to my relationship with Britain yet do not identity as British. Those feelings are nowhere near as complex as Ireland.
You admitted it yourself that was all I stated. Like it or not ni is governed by the same central spot and most of the world regards both island as the British Isles even though the roi does not.
So to get back to the only thing to stated.
It's complicated
Substitute complicated with disputed and I agree lol. The Irish Government strongly dispute the term British Isles being applied against our wishes to this island, as it was invented to legitimise a land claim, not innocently by any neutral geographic body.
Unlike Scotland we've a treaty which now sets out our democratic pathway to getting the British government to finish their withdraw from our island, but we're no closer to holding the vote (and don't control the trigger).
Still raw Scotland missed their chance, but that too is a complicated topic!
Yeh I'm pretty salty about it myself. Even more so with the current shit show.
I remember growing up in the 80s and what that was to this day people I know personally directly involved have complex thoughts in the mess.
On the topic of the geographical status of the island I don't know close enough to anything to have an opinion so am intentionally
chasingchoosing my words carefully.Edit apparently autocorrect is less careful on the word choice
No worries, I'm not trying to trick you, you of course are right, it's complicated.
Back to the original topic, what really gets me is shows like Rings of Power double down on Tolkien classism by accent - intelligent elegant Elf's in posh English, common men in northern English, rough ginger dwarfs in Scottish and then bottom of the class - mud dwelling, starving savage hobbits with Irish accents
Yeh it does get old. I try to take solis that when Holywood needs a bastard or a villain it's usually that posh English twat.
It would be nice if they mixed it up or made the accents fairly agnostic
Has nobody here seen The Wizard of Oz?
Dwarves in the Dragon Age universe have an US-American accent.
They made at least one "southern fantasy" show, it was called Man in the High Castle based on work by American fantasy writer Phillip K Dick.
.....that would be science fiction. Dick was a sci-fi writer.
Aye reckon
Because Tolkien.
Two hick PCs in the current Critical Role cast.
My last character was an orphan (or course), taken in by a dwarf clan, where he worked alongside them in the mines. So, naturally, he was Appalachian
You're doing God's work - an Appalachian
As a Undying Warlock/Death Cleric, he was definitely doing someone's work lol
And I thought there was a remark about the suspiciously missing foreign accents in there... I was disappointed
I mean... there are a couple of them that try to do mine and, honestly? Nah, just stick to what you know.
I'm imaginig everyone just speaking erasmus english
What a gross crop
Only an American would do something like that, but because most Americans can't read...