Fantasy rednecks

Flying Squid@lemmy.worldmod to Lemmy Shitpost@lemmy.world – 1006 points –
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Ancient city-sized dragon that is eons older that any surviving historical text or man-made structures in the world, speaking to the dwarf that stands bravely before her: "Well ain't chu just the most precious lil' thang I ever did lay eyes on! Wut's yer name, sugah?"

Yer here ta kill me? Oh, honey, bless yer heart!

My papy were what you would call an elder dragon, so unless you got the fire power to take down Mrs. Tiamat you don't stand a chance against me, sugah.

So why don't you just cool your heels, I'll go make us some tea, and you can tell me about what's going on in the world these days.

No one decided that, if you’re looking at Tolkien based fantasy then of course it’s British because it’s British fantasy

All of the Asian fantasy I’ve seen has been populated by people of their respective country.

Everyone knows the Grim Reaper is Jamaican

This post is stupid, just write your desired fantasy

True. I never interpreted those all caps as having an accent, I just had them as words so heavy you heard them with your bones, not your ears.

Not to mention the history and lore of such things are immense in well-documented European and Asian history. The majority of that fantasy stuff comes from ancient cultures and societies peppered around those geographical areas. I'm sure that would be much the same everywhere if it weren't for the lack of it being so heavily documented.

I don't want none of them there dragons yonder.

Got daym goblins stole mah moonshine.

I tell you what them there walking skeletons ain't right.

Yeah man talkin bout dang ol 𝔖𝔴𝔬𝔯𝔑 𝔬𝔣 𝔱π”₯𝔒 π”˜π”«π”‘π”’π”žπ”‘ and back o' the dang ol cave man. Talkin about fighting off dang ol skeletons with my bb gun man and dang ol sunuvaguns just come right back man. Just ain't right.

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This gave me an idea for a fantasy dramedy about hobbit moonshiners. Unfortunately, I'm not a writer so if anyone wants to take my four word pitch and run with it please do

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Hey! We don't take kindly to dragons 'round here!

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American accents sound too 'modern' because American English wasn't a thing until the Medieval period had long passed, and most fantasy is medieval or medieval-adjacent.

I'm all for broadening the use, though. I love that the Witcher games gave Geralt and the other Witchers of the School of the Wolf American accents. And Dragon Age (back when it was good) giving the dwarves American accents.

New England accent is actually closest to English of the Middle Ages.

I heard it was Southern English which was closest to Elizabethan English.

In any case, reality doesn't matter. Perceptions matter. Britain is an old country, and America is a new country - so in 'translating' an accent to a past period, we tend to see the accent of the 'old country' as more appropriate.

I wonder how they measure such a thing

I'm not sure how they measure how close an accent is. But, they can tell how old accents sounded by looking at songs and poetry for the meter and rhyme of words. If two words rhymed, they were probably pronounced the same way. For example, in Shakespeare's time they know that "proved" and "loved" rhymed.

well for one from times and places where there was a lot of casual writing there are just straight up people writing about how people speak, which is pretty convenient.

but additionally you can compare different recorded and modern speakers to figure out trends which let you at least vaguely reconstruct what people from the past would probably have sounded like.

and more specifically with new england that's just wholesale a bunch of people from england who settled a colony, so you effectively have a twin study where you can compare it to modern england.

American English wasn’t a thing until the Medieval period had long passed

Nor was modern British English. One of the defining features of modern British English is the lack of rhoticity (dropping the "r" sound), but that's very modern, only happening in the 19th century. They have managed to recreate how English sounded in Shakespeare's time by looking at words that were supposed to rhyme, and their meter. To me, it sounds like "pirate English".

https://youtu.be/uQc5ZpAoU4c?t=299

Whether modern American English is closer to Shakespeare's English is a matter for debate. I'd say it's closer than RP, but not as close as some rural British accents.

That may be true for regional us dialects, but the core of American pronunciation is older than Received Pronunciation

Actually, modern American English apparently is closer to the English from old days than modern day British English is. Always found that to be an interesting tidbit.

Shakespeare apparently rhymes better in American accents than British ones, since it was written before the Great Vowel Shift. I'm not cultured enough to notice but I like this piece of trivia.

This is actually a misconception. The modern English accents are a result of fashionable language of London. This developed after the United States of America was formed. So after the Middle ages. It's more likely English speakers in the middle ages sounded more American than English.

Xenoblade 2 had a nice use of the various English accents, generally each nation/group in the game used a particular accent (eg Mor Ardain = Scottish, villain group Torna spoke American English). One unique character (a blade) had a southern grew-up-on-a-farm accent.

American accents sound too β€˜modern’ because American English wasn’t a thing until the Medieval period had long passed, and most fantasy is medieval or medieval-adjacent.

OP mentions Australia, which wasn't even established as a penal colony until 5 years after the US was recognized as an independent nation under the Treaty of Paris.

Because its fantasy no ones fantasising about American accents.

I feel like the existence of Matthew McConaughey disproves this

Alright, alright, alright.

That's what I love about interstellar travel, everyone else gets older, I stay the same age.

The rule says that no one is fantasizing about American accents, but I see a lot of lawbreakers up in this house

Why not? American culture and linguistics are extremely popular around the world.

Maybe since modern America is so young, people dont associate it to fantasy?

Alternatively, Native American accents aren't uncommon in fantasy I feel like

I imagine it's because Americans use foreign accents to make the fantasy more foreign itself. If the wizard who cast a spell to alter the passage of time starts talking like the dude that runs the gas station on the corner, maybe it takes away some of the magic.

Good point, Avatar is basically US Marines in spaaaaace vs. spaaaace Pocahontas sci-fi/fantasy.

Yeah sure buddy, "American Culture" is extremely popular. It isn't that you people just try to appropriate the culture of the migrants lol

Damn, someone got you with a downvote within 3 minutes of posting. That shit was quick, didn't think the Fediverse got down like that. Wasn't me for the record

But, you don't believe the "American Culture" is popular? I'd be real interested in a counter argument to the fact it is popular. It's pretty easy to show that American media and politics are pretty discussed or enjoyed around the world.

And I'm not sure what you mean about us appropriating from migrants. Do you consider every American a migrant due to the fact that America is so young?

Something like the last thing you said. I mean they killed most of their natives and the traditions they had, I'm sure there's even more latinos there that there is people decending from the native nations.

So if their "culture" didn't came from their own land, then from where? People who came there: Migrants.

Edit: Mispellings (if it isn't clear enough, english is not my first language lol).

hollywood and americas massive industry has effectively given it a chokehold on western culture, to the point where western culture practically just means 'cultures that take their cue from the usa'

Fantasy is based upon the middle ages.

During the middle ages the US did not exist.

Iroquois Confederacy would like a word....

The middle ages ended in 1453 with the fall of Constantinople, which coincided with the birth of the Renaissance in Italy having already taken place.

The Iroquois Confederacy was founded (most likely) in the 1500s, with the earliest record of the first capital being in 1609.

The United States itself was founded in the 1700s.

Their comment was correct, the Iroquois Confederacy was founded during the age of the Renaissance and our modern conception of America came much later

Also, why are all dwarfs Scottish?

Because both are proud and mountanious nations?

Apparently, Tolkien's dwarven language just naturally works well with a Scottish accent. Earlier radio, tv, readings leant into this and other writings including fantasy dwarves followed suit.

You can't pick a Scottish accent for your character in Baldurs Gate 3 and now my Dwarf just sounds British. It sounds, well... off

Pretty sure because the β€œoriginal” fantasy was written as a false history for England (LoTR was this). So it makes sense that the people would bear an English accent

I hope one day we can have a (respectful) mainstream fantasy world for Native America, It could be so cool.

Not exactly what you're looking for, but most characters in A Wizard of Earthsea resemble Native Americans.

@WoodenBleachers But his sources were Norse, primarily, so by extension the argument can be made that the characters should all have Scandinavian accents.

@FlyingSquid

That’s cool. I wouldn’t mind fantasy characters having accents (it’s fantasy after all) just providing context for why it’s predominantly English

No, only folks that never read what Tolkien said about LotR think it is a fake History for England.

I read the Silmarillion, he was sad about the fact that England had no real β€œmythology” so he made his own

Because New Zealand is a fantasy hence why it doesn't exist on many world maps.

Let's see.

Dwarves: Billy-Bob Thornton's accent from Sling Blade.

Elves: Transatlantic accent. Used by stars in the 1930s/1940s.

Hobbits: Cajun. Makes sense, they love food, live a rural life, etc.

Orcs: NYC accent

Goblins: Chicago Accent

Or, if you wanted to go international.

Dwarves: Gotta go with the classic. Glasgow.

Elves: South African. I think it can sound smart but foreign-influenced, as elves should.

Hobbits: Aussie

Orcs: NYC accent again

Goblins: Newfoundland accent

Transatlantic for the elves is a stroke of fucking genius

Edit: I’d also like to advocate for southern Appalachian for hobbits, prohibition era gangsters for orcs, and Midwestern for Tom Bombadil specifically

Most have Eurocentric accents because those are the areas the various legends and stories originated.

Various depictions of leprechauns make them pretty much Irish rednecks. I love Mad Sweeney's depiction in American Gods.

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I would like to take this moment recommend Not Another D&D Podcast solely because of the Crick Elves

Because for fantasy we think of middle ages, and middle ages america is full of natives, not a single English speaker in sight

Tolkien, the father of modern fantasy based Middle Earth a lot on old Britain and the affects industrialisation was having.

I'd love to see more fantasy based on Native American mythology for sure.

In Dragon Age, the dwarves speak with an American accent, which was pretty unique during the time.

Yes we collectively decided it. We all had a big vote, but you weren't invited.

I know you are making fun and all, but things like this are indeed reproduced.

Basicly it's a process of cultural and collective copy and pasting, where media and indivulas reproduce a concept by either activly using it (or not) or passives acepting it.

It's a bit more complex than that, but you probably get the idea.

Modern fantasy is heavily based on ancient European fairytales and folklore

So the characters should sound like Scandinavian or Germanic people? English didn't even exist in its modern form until the 1600s.

Also, you know... Latin and Ancient Greek.

It's not like Germanic or Scandinavian languages haven't changed during that time

Icelandic hasn't changed as much as other languages. Plus we are just trying to get as close as possible.

Basically the cultured elves should be speaking Ancient Greek, men can speak with Germanic accents, and dwarves Icelandic. That makes more sense than everyone just speaking different English accents.

I mean go and watch true blood or read the books ots based off of ?

Ironically the main actress is a New Zealander.

Also wasn't aware aussie/kiwi accents were a fantasy trope, especially as those countries didn't really participate in the medieval period.

There is a popular lit rpg series that is all kiwi

True Blood is amazing, and it's deeply enhanced by the hick accents and the protagonist being named Sookie Stackhouse. It's well worth a watch!

Good lord no. Here in the US I hear plenty of that. It's the last thing I want to hear in a fantasy.

Why?

It's by and large the dialect of the uneducated and the impoverished right leaning southerners and widwesterners that are hurting themselves and others by supporting the GOP and spreading hate and discrimination. Fully aware that is a stereotype, but I see enough of it in real life that for me that accent just has a negative connotation.

The German translation of Baldur's Gate decided for some reason that elves spoke in an east-German accent. Imagine Legolas sounding like he was from Texas.

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I'm a bit torn on this. On the one hand: you're completely right. On the other: It sounded goofy as fuck.

But missing variety in dialects in German dubs is something I really dislike. Everyone in German dubs sounds like they're from Hannover.

They don't just sound like they're from Hannover. They sound like they're a Hannover stereotype. Every fucking vowel is sounded out completely. Like, I'm from Mecklenburg Vorpommern, we speak pretty clear Hochdeutsch here for the most part and it still all sounds stilted as fuck to me.

It also doesn't help that they always use their "voice actor" voice when dubbong live action, where the original actors will use a more normal/natural voice compared to when they're doing VA for a cartoon or something. Then the audio mixing is all fucked and all semblance of a natural conversation is lost. Genuinely the only thing I can watch in German is animated stuff.

Yup. I really hate that notion that people think that one dialect is "normal" and the other ways to speak are degenerated deviations for the underclass. Everyone has a dialect and they're all equally valid.

You can't even watch the Sendung mit der Maus? ;_;

Oh no, German productions are fine, it's just dubs. They don't fuck up the audio on their own productions.

I did a dnd campaign once where it had a Louisiana bayou theme. Rednecks? Southern belles, and swamp gnomes with Cajun French accents. Was a lot of fun!

A great example of this is Not Another D&D Podcast, a comedy D&D podcast. The first campaign has a player character who sounds like she’s from Appalachia!

Fantasy species are supposed to be ancient.

America is a toddler of a nation, in age and behavior.

But back then they just called fantasy speech sprech.

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The Seanchan would like a slowly drawled word.

Imperial conquerors from across the sea with slave sorceresses and Texan accents.

Wheel of Time is top tier.

Careful what you wish for. I believe it’s in the first book* of Wheel of Time that suddenly there's a group of "darkfriends"** (basically worshippers of the ultimate evil) who all speak in a dialect that sounds like they're from rural Georgia.

Even with Rosamund Pike doing a fantastic job reading the audio book, that was immersion breaking as fuck πŸ˜‚

*Second book

** not all darkfriends, see reply below

the seanchan are described as having a drawl, but you're not introduced to them until book2 and they're not uniformly darkfriends.

Sorry, my ADHD memory lol. I'm currently at book 3 and knew for sure that it was one of the previous ones 😁

ah. well i haven't heard rosamund's narration, but the previous recordings by michael kramer and kate redding did not have either the stereotypical british accent nor did they stretch to give the seanchan a southerndrawl. you might find that less jarring if you can get past the first few books where they seem to never pre-read and, so, frequently misstep in meter or emphasis and sometimes just mispronounce names and places altogether.

edit

an example of stumbling over meter or emphasis:

*i* did not take the money
i did *not* take the money
i did not *take* the money
i did not take the *money*

Nah, they don't appear that much so far and as I said she's doing a fantastic job overall so I'm gonna stick with her. Thanks anyway πŸ™‚

I have to admit, I want to hear the story of aemons field as read by moraine.

there’s a group of β€œdarkfriends” ... who all speak in a dialect that sounds like they’re from rural Georgia

Not sure how you got that impression from reading a book. It's not like he references rural Georgia.

By listening to the audio book version. The point about Rosamund Pike reading should have been a clue for you

in the first book

When people talk about books, they generally mean books, not audio books. Yes, the narrator of an audio book can choose to use a certain accent, but that's not necessarily what the author intended. In this case, the author didn't make any suggestion that the characters sound like that, it was a choice made by Ms. Pike or by the audio book director.

You can't say that the characters in the book have that accent, all you can say is that in the audio book they're given that accent.

When people talk about books, they generally mean books, not audio books

Audio books are books and I made it clear which kind of book I was talking about, as mentioning the excellent reader would only make sense in the context of that medium or a public reading, which is usually done by the author.

In this case, the author didn't make any suggestion that the characters sound like that

As per the other guy replying, that's flat out false as the text describes them as having a drawl. It doesn't specify Georgia specifically, but suggests specific dialect groups, of which Southern American English is the one most people worldwide associate with a drawl.

You can't say that the characters in the book have that accent, all you can say is that in the audio book they're given that accent.

Wrong again. The audio book IS the book. It's a different way to express the same text.

You came in hot without knowing what you're talking about. It's ok. That happens to most of us sometimes. Just own up to your mistakes in stead of doubling down like a Republican.

I made it clear which kind of book I was talking about

No, you said " I believe it’s in the first book* of Wheel of Time". Without context that refers to... you know, the book. Not the audio book.

You then said: "who all speak in a dialect that sounds like they’re from rural Georgia". You had not mentioned audio books at all at that point. Your claim was that the books had multiple characters who all sounded like they were from rural Georgia.

Your first mention of the audio book was in the next paragraph. If you had wanted to make it clear you were talking about her choice to interpret the accent that way, a reasonable way to phrase it would have been: "In the audio book for one of the Wheel of Time books, Rosamund Pike chooses to interpret their accent as if it were a rural Georgia accent, and that was immersion breaking."

The way you actually phrased it was as if the accent was carefully described as if it were a rural Georgian accent in the book, and that she faithfully interpreted that for the audio book. Instead, what the book said was that it was a drawl. But, a drawl can be any slow, diphthong-heavy dialect. There are multiple English drawls in the world, including multiple drawls within England.

Do you even know what a drawl is?

It doesn't mean "a dialect that sounds like they’re from rural Georgia". All it is is an accent that is slower with longer vowel sounds and more diphthongs. Yes, rural Georgia might count, but so would broad Australian, New Zealand, Texas, Louisiana, even some maritime accents in Canada. In England, the posh aristocratic accent and the Liverpool accent are considered drawls. In fact, the exaggerated slow and calm tone that pilots use over the intercom is considered a drawl, but one associated with a job, not a region.

Wrong again. The audio book IS the book.

The audio book is the audio book adaptation of the book. The books are The Eye of the World, The Great Hunt, The Dragon Reborn, etc. written by Robert Jordan. Those are the definitive words on the characters and how they sound. Your confusion over the accent applies only to the adaptation, not the original book.

Fuck it. You're still wrong but it's not worth my time and effort to further dumb already simple concepts down so you can understand them. Have the day you deserve.

Ha. You can't admit you're wrong, but you also can't find any fault in my argument, so you pretend...

Hey, I found a picture of you!

You're right, I do shed light on things. Thanks for noticing. Is this your way of admitting you were wrong?

Nope, it's a projector projecting. Like you.

Ah, projecting information into the darkness, which you refuse to look at.

Theres not enough guns in Fantasy stories to warrant a redneck accent

Monsters, Inc. Fairy trailer trash with a southern accent. You're welcome.

British Scottish Welsh (Irish is complicated)?

I have English being conflated with British but never the other way round.

I have no idea how I feel about this

Irish isn't complicated - we're a separate island from Britain.

Wrong.

Northern Ireland is brittish. Hence the cimplicated

Also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_naming

As an Irish person born in the six counties of Ireland the British claim as "Northern Ireland", I can assure you that although our identity is complex, we have an international treaty (the Good Friday Agreement) between Britain and Ireland which recognises the residents of this part of Ireland have the right to identify as Irish, OR British OR both.

What's not in dispute is that Ireland has been partitioned and NI has existed for barely 100 years, and that our accents predate this political divide and are distinctly geographical - people from the island of Ireland have Irish accents

You can identify however you wish no treaty changes that. I'm from the other bit of Britain that didn't want to leave the EU and the same prime minister that worked out the gfa also gave me my own parliament.

I have my own complex feelings when it comes to my relationship with Britain yet do not identity as British. Those feelings are nowhere near as complex as Ireland.

You admitted it yourself that was all I stated. Like it or not ni is governed by the same central spot and most of the world regards both island as the British Isles even though the roi does not.

So to get back to the only thing to stated.

It's complicated

Substitute complicated with disputed and I agree lol. The Irish Government strongly dispute the term British Isles being applied against our wishes to this island, as it was invented to legitimise a land claim, not innocently by any neutral geographic body.

Unlike Scotland we've a treaty which now sets out our democratic pathway to getting the British government to finish their withdraw from our island, but we're no closer to holding the vote (and don't control the trigger).

Still raw Scotland missed their chance, but that too is a complicated topic!

Yeh I'm pretty salty about it myself. Even more so with the current shit show.

I remember growing up in the 80s and what that was to this day people I know personally directly involved have complex thoughts in the mess.

On the topic of the geographical status of the island I don't know close enough to anything to have an opinion so am intentionally chasing choosing my words carefully.

Edit apparently autocorrect is less careful on the word choice

No worries, I'm not trying to trick you, you of course are right, it's complicated.

Back to the original topic, what really gets me is shows like Rings of Power double down on Tolkien classism by accent - intelligent elegant Elf's in posh English, common men in northern English, rough ginger dwarfs in Scottish and then bottom of the class - mud dwelling, starving savage hobbits with Irish accents

Yeh it does get old. I try to take solis that when Holywood needs a bastard or a villain it's usually that posh English twat.

It would be nice if they mixed it up or made the accents fairly agnostic

They made at least one "southern fantasy" show, it was called Man in the High Castle based on work by American fantasy writer Phillip K Dick.

And I thought there was a remark about the suspiciously missing foreign accents in there... I was disappointed

I mean... there are a couple of them that try to do mine and, honestly? Nah, just stick to what you know.

My last character was an orphan (or course), taken in by a dwarf clan, where he worked alongside them in the mines. So, naturally, he was Appalachian

You're doing God's work - an Appalachian

As a Undying Warlock/Death Cleric, he was definitely doing someone's work lol

Only an American would do something like that, but because most Americans can't read...