Reblog if youre american

PP_GIRL_@lemmy.world to Lemmy Shitpost@lemmy.world – 728 points –
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Yeah fuck circumcisions. Child abuse is what it is. I want my fucking foreskin back

My mother used to hate it when people would get baby girls' ears pierced. Called it child abuse and mutilation.

I'm circumcised.

Damn. That's pretty fucking shit.

Not sure how badly you want it back, but it is possible to restore. Non-sugically. Basically skin under tension causes Mitosis (skin cells dividing to make more skin) - think putting on weight, gaining muscle, getting pregnant, or ear gauges. You tug the skin long enough and eventually have your hoodie back. The results are surprisingly impressive. r/restoring_foreskin has a bunch of info

bruh. I don't necessarily want it back and was just angry about the fact that it was taken from without my consent in the first place. But thanks for the info anyway, tho not sure what I'm gonna do with it.

Just make sure to double, triple, quadruple check any foreskin restoration advice you get. Some of the ways people suggest can be really dangerous.

Oh, I’ve seen that. It’s fascinating. There’s a ball with outer clamps and varying degrees of weights you can add on a dangly bit. You attach the contraption for some number of increasing minutes per day, and it stretches the skin surrounding the glans until it’s long enough to encompass the glans. After a while, the little ball will be encompassed by the new foreskin.

He says it’s not painful and I believe him, but not being the owner of a penis, it looks at least uncomfortable to me. Then again, I’ve never used gauges, either, and as you said, it’s pretty similar to that.

I don't want much just want my foreskin back again
No it's not TMI I shared it 'cause we're friends
My parents chose this road but I'll choose where it ends
Don't I deserve it all? Gonna grow it back again

Grow It Back Again - foreskin restoration anthem from How To with John Wilson (HBO 2020)

(Piped mirror)

Oh yeah I remember this guy. He has a good cause (anti circumcision) but had to ruin it with Bill Gates conspiracy theory nonsense. Also I love How to with John Wilson

edit: hmm actually there is some stuff about bill gates and circumcision so I should probably fact check myself here

As an American who’s uncut… there’s a scar?

What's fucked is I had no idea that was a scar until I was well into adulthood.

This is something I do not wish to google. Is it noticeable? I would assume a small surgical cut that occurs at infancy leaves no significant scar

Not to be crude but this pretty much is what I'm talking about. It's almost like having a two toned penis...

NSFW btw... Although it is just a drawing

Wow the frenulum gets removed as well sometimes? What an outdated and ridiculous thing to be doing to children for absolutely no good reason. Yeah sure, some studies show it improves hygiene I've been told. To me that's about as proportionate as removing all your healthy teeth so you don't get cavities in the future...

The studies where it 'improves' hygiene are poorly designed as they don't control for education and understanding.

In other words - what's better: teaching our baby boys the simple act of cleaning under their foreskin in the bath, along with the rest of their body or cutting off a sensitive and important part of their body to make masturbation and sex more difficult?

Ok wait the rest of this is important but sidebar, my peehole is called a MEATUS??

Biden needs to bring this up at the next State of the Union address

A meatus is a hole/tunnel, with some specific properties. You also, just as a by the by thing, have an external acoustic meatus on each side of your head.

Are you saying all those vitiligo penises in porn are actually just circumcised?

Let's just say there is a definitive line where what once was my foreskin now just is a smooth piece of skin connected by another. I wouldn't call it a scar because like I said I had no idea it was not normal. There's definitely a noticeable difference between the top part and the rest of it. I'm not sure how else to put this delicately. Honestly, I would just google it.

Unacceptable. Upload a pic of the tip of your dick pls.

I mean if you really want it I'll do it. It's just anatomy. Plus I have a wide angle lens...

Always weird to be reminded that the World’s eminent superpower is obsessed with cutting bits off babies’ dicks. But then, maybe that’s the secret behind their economic strength?

After all, the Romans did some pretty wild stuff, like making their horses generals.

I mean, the Middle East and Africa have even higher circumcision rates and it doesn't seem to be working out for them

I'm Canadian they do this here as well

I didn't realise you had horse generals.

I mixed up a few words and in the context interpreted this as "horse genitals".

As a Canadian can we try to convince people that this is true about all Canadians.

Omg me too and I didn't realize it was generals until I read this comment. I need sleep

Amazing. That'll confuse people when dropping a random comment in.

"My money's on the blue team. They're doing really well this season" "I didn't realise you had horse genitals"

Perhaps the next natural step is joining that with their love of firearms. Circumcision by mass shootings or something.

I don't really care. My dick works great, I wouldn't do this to my kids but my parents trusted the doctor. I still love my parents anyway.

E: also, this illustrated girl looks really weird, and this is a really weird conversation. Real women do not look like this, and I wouldn't get naked in front of a girl who looked like this. Eeesh.

oh, the parents? for the most part unknowing, the doctor on the other hand? ya, hate him

I don't hate the doctor either. It was a long time ago, and intent matters. I don't think the doctor wanted to hurt me, they likely bought into the studies and groupthink that were prevalent at the time.

The result is unfortunate, but it happened, and we all strive to do better with our own kids, especially now that we have things like the internet.

Supposedly is super safe and has health benefits, I once compared it to female genital mutilation and ooh boy was I corrected.

Edit: the above is far from an endorsement. Some of yall could use some practice critical reading.

The health benefits are overblown and the evidence is largely from flawed studies. While not as debilitating as clitoris circumcision, it's still genital mutilation and it's regularly done in the US for no good reason beyond cultural pressure.

There's health benefits to removing the appendix and tonsils too - so why isn't it done wholesale on every kid born?

Because it's fucking barbaric chopping bits of you up without necessity.

On top of that as science has progressed - guess what? They think both the tonsils and appendix have a purpose. They're important for immunity.

But there was never a fucking doubt that the foreskin has a purpose in human beings. So the removal of it for "health benefits" really is scraping the fucking barrel.

No. It's not done because it's invasive surgery. Like, are you for real?

Ask anyone who had their appendix rupture if they wish it could have been removed while they were barely aware of the world and had nothing else going on in their life.

Weird that they don’t remove appendixes after birth tbh. /s

It's a major surgery. But I've worked with a guy who had his removed preemptively after watching his brother's rupture. It's rare, though, because again, it's major surgery to remove that ticking time bomb.

There is strong evidence that it causes long term trauma. Just because you can’t remember something doesn’t mean it doesn’t have an effect on you. They literally strap you down, rip open the skin, and chop it off without any kind of pain management.

It is absolutely insane. Go watch the procedure on YouTube or something to understand what actually happens. Then take into consideration you’re likely seeing a “best case” outcome.

No. Everything you said is wrong or unproven. Just stop making shit up or floating around these bizarre internet cults.

Here is an article summarizing a number of sources, and providing the sources summarized: https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/moral-landscapes/201501/circumcision-s-psychological-damage

Lotta bad science in there.

  1. Pain is only shown in the control group with zero management.
  2. Behavioral tests were animals exclusively, with no pain management.
  3. The fact that there are people online upset about their dicks doesn't necessarily relate to circumcision and could be multiple factors like mate rejection, erectile disfunction, sense of lack of control in the rest of their lives.

The reasons go on and on for what could make a person blame something they perceive as outside themselves for the bad in their lives. Ex: "My dick doesn't work not because of work stress and substance abuse! It must be because I was circumcised!"

After the 4th bit of bad science in a row, I stopped reading their article because it was only going down hill from there as more conclusions got based on the initial studies. The author also called into question the validity of the study done in Africa, but this is rebutted by the CDC last year in their open letter regarding criticism of their stance.

If you were uncircumcised now, would you choose to have it done at your current age? No. Then, why do it to a baby without their consent? It’s a bodily autonomy issue.

I chose to when I was 13 because ejaculating felt like my urethra was going to rip in half. If I somehow made it like that another thirty years I would absolutely have it done again.

My father had to have his removed for the same reason (I know this because we had a conversation when I was pregnant with my son and said I wasn’t going to have him circumcised). That can happen, and I’m sorry it happened to you.

I still didn’t have my son circumcised, and would make the same decision today because those issues are comparatively rare. It sucks a lot if you have to go through that, but preemptively removing the foreskin seems harsh considering how rare complications are.

I don’t disagree with you at all. I have two sons, first one is circumcised due to medical advice from our doctor and our second one isn’t. I try to inform myself as much as possible but ultimately depend on medical professionals that I trust to help me make the best decisions I can. I’m certain I’ll never get them all correct but I do my best to be informed. I’m fairly certain the online narrative of vitriol towards circumcising isn’t aimed at medically advised procedures but the loudest voices seem to be the most ignorant towards the realities of life’s nuances. While it is mostly black and white their is still some gray area that gets lost in what I assume is well meaning commentary.

Sorry that happened to you. It may have been God’s way of telling you to stop masturbating. /s All jokes aside, it should always be the individual’s choice.

I agree it should be the individuals choice and when medically necessary. Sometimes I feel the narrative swings too far the other way as there are medically necessary reasons.

For context I don’t recognize uncircumcised penises when compared to my own even as a young teen. The head of my dick extended beyond the foreskin before I was circumcised. I had three strands of skin that connected between the head and skin around top of the shaft. One of the thinner strands tore once when I got an erection. The other two were significantly larger strands and would stretch and pull the head of my dick to the side when I got an erection. That bent angle hurt like hell inside when I ejaculated and just getting a boner would hurt from the strands of connective skin.

All that to say the doctor told me I was getting a circumcision but other than those strands of skin I already appeared circumcised to my knowledge. I was left with scars on the head and shaft tissue from where they were cut off though.

Not a real comparison. A baby is given some sugar water and already lives in diapers. They don't even bleed after it's done, and you just put some jelly on the front of the diaper for the first few weeks. They experience no discernable discomfort.

An adult male has gone through puberty and has a life that doesn't involve sleeping through 18 hours of it and getting changed every couple of hours. The risk of infection is greater because you are an adult who doesn't get the luxury of having every single need met 24/7 and getting to rest through your entire recovery.

Exactly. Babies can’t consent to have their bodies altered. Unless it is medically necessary, it should not be performed.

That's not the criteria for making medical decisions for your child, though. You have a kid, you know this. We make decisions that might have lasting physical ramifications for them for years.

I believe in vaccines and vaccinated my kid, but if someone felt the risks of them were too high, we don't call it child abuse. And if someone delayed vaccinations, that's not child abuse either.

We can phrase things in extremes like abuse all day, but it doesn't make it true. Injecting babies with modified hepatitis c in the first 12 hours of their life sounds like assaulting a child unless you know those words just mean they got a vaccine.

I think the reason people don't give a shit about online circumcision protesting is because most of them are cringe sycophants, using the worst language possible to alter someone's opinion on the issue.

Watch a video of a circumcision and get back to me. If it’s not necessary, it shouldn’t be done. When my son was born, circumcision shouldn’t have even been an option. The “cringe sycophants” are the religious and miseducated nurses that asked me if I wanted it done.

I've seen it live. No video was needed. It's not a decision to be made in the room, though. We were asked at the 20-week appointment by our doctor. She went through the merits and downsides. She was also younger than my wife and I, so it's not just old-school doctors who ask or think there's merit. She didn't push either way, though.

We weren’t asked until after birth. I was prepared and it had been discussed. But I’m sure many are unprepared. That’s why I’m advocating on here. Know before you go. Don’t look back in hindsight and think “oh well.”

It’s a totally valid comparison.

Removing the foreskin has real ramifications for not only looks but sexual pleasure (which, by the way, was why it was popularised by puritan Christians in the US – the original point was to stop teenage boys from masturbating by making it less pleasurable).

Cutting off the foreskin at birth takes something from a man that he can’t really restore later, whereas doing nothing gives him the bodily autonomy to make that decision later. You can always remove it if you want, but once it’s gone, you can’t just grow it back.

A baby is at your mercy and has no choice in the matter.

No, you only have a short window to make it a nothing surgery vs. a week+ recovery time.

A baby will always be at their parents' mercy. And if a parent feels the medical benefits outweigh the risks, they get to make that choice.

Also, I don't get why people keep bringing up Kellog and his ilk. It's irrelevant. WHO and the CDC both cite benefits. That's relevant enough for a person today without pretending the reasoning has to be based on old information.

Again, cite sources?

Yes, I’m aware it’s a week of recovery time later. I made the decision not to circumcise my son after talking to my father who had the procedure in his teens after he developed a condition. He told me exactly what it was like. (My father is 88 and was born before circumcision was common.)

You can do almost anything to an infant and they won’t remember the trauma. Infants have been subjected to near-fatal child abuse, including having their femurs broken, and they don’t remember it. That doesn’t make it right.

Having your wisdom teeth removed takes at least a week of recovery and we do that in late teens or early twenties. There are lots of things that take a week to recover from, and having to have your foreskin removed because it’s causing issues is far, far more rare. That’s not a reason to take that choice away.

Like I said, they can always have that procedure later if they want to, but once it’s done, that choice is basically gone.

Also like I said, I’m not trying to make people feel bad for having done it when we didn’t really know better. I’m not shaming anyone. It’s just what we did until recently. Going forward, though, it’s not justified and we shouldn’t be advocating for it now that we know better.

eta: and Kellogg isn’t irrelevant. That’s exactly why the practice has been embedded in American culture, so when we’re talking about why we do it, he’s extremely relevant.

You are profoundly uninformed and clearly huffing copium to deal with the fact that you chose to mutilate your own newborn sons penis. Great work bro.

I trust the doctors over internet weirdos obsessed with kids penises.

Who's more obsessed, those who leave well enough alone or those who perform drastic, unnecessary, life-altering surgery as soon as a baby enters the world?

You seem pretty obsessed to me. You keep bringing it up.

Less than you have. And it takes zero action to not cut a babies dick. Whereas it takes a special kind of obsession to do so.

Some people believe in doctors, the CDC, the World Health Organization, and countless other institutions, and some people don't. You're the latter, and the last 4 years taught me that people in your camp are wrong about too many things, but also that you need to be told you are wrong before you get emboldened by your recklessness and idiocy.

It also showed me that you're depraved sycophants that are almost always projecting some weird perv shit.

There's more to science literacy than you are capable of, apparently. Otherwise, you know that there's a biological purpose foreskin serves and the choice to remove it is weighed against risk factors that are very low and able to be mitigated.

Grow up, wash your dick, and use a condom. Get a circumcision if you want when you're an adult. It's not that hard for the vast majority of the world and history. You aren't "right", you're just an asshole. Talking about genital mutilation in terms of camps, get over yourself.

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It is as safe as any similar procedure, and comes with inherent risk. There’s a reason people talk about “botched circumcisions” which do indeed happen.

The health benefits aren’t even a full percentage point difference. We are talking minuscule differences, and most of it is based on bad science. How can I know this? The studies were often done on grown adults, in third world countries. Disease is already rampant there, and considering rape is so prevalent in many of the areas that anti-rape condoms were created and distributed, there are no social barriers in place to prevent the spread of disease. And finally, they tested to see if there was disease spread almost immediately after the procedure had fully healed. Meaning the men who didn’t get circumcised had been fucking around for a much, much longer time than the circumcised men.

And FGM is a pretty good allegory. We are talking about Male Genital Mutilation, why wouldn’t Female Genital Mutilation be similar? Because it’s normalized in some first world countries? You’re removing double the nerve endings when you remove foreskin vs destroy the clit, I’d say they line up close enough.

Look at it this way, we all agree declawing cats is super safe and has health benefits. But it’s being outlawed all over the place because it’s barbaric. But we still cut baby dicks. It’s pretty fucked up.

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Yeah, my parents didn’t do it, and I ended up getting phimosis in my early twenties and having to get it done then.

On the one hand I do appreciate that they left it up to me, but on the other hand it was intense pain for a couple of weeks and at the time I was really wishing that they had just gotten it out of the way.

For me, it’s a wash. That may or may not be typical but it’s probably slightly better that they left me the choice? Can’t put the foreskin back on the penis I guess.

My son was born with hypospadias, so I didn’t really have a choice with him. Had to get it done or he would be peeing out of the bottom of his dick forever, which saved me and my wife a difficult decision.

All of this said though, I personally prefer being circumcised. Cleaning is way way easier, and in my own personal experience I have a lot more sensitivity when doing anything fun with my hog. My partners have also preferred it, and some of them shared with me that they had previously gotten UTIs from uncircumcised partners.

Like I said, I appreciate that my parents left it up to me, but at the same time I think the genital mutilation trope is way overblown in the majority of cases. Not all of course.

For me, it’s a wash.

It's certainly close enough that we shouldn't be trying to butt into other people's lives over it.

You should need a strong reason to have the state invade people's lives. This ain't it. I wouldn't pierce my baby's ears either, but I'm not looking to put anyone in prison over it.

Oh, so you’re good with female circumcision then? Since we shouldn’t be trying to butt into other people’s lives?…

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So glad that didn't happen to me.

Me too, were the lucky ones

Mine only stayed uncut because there was a protest going on outside the hospital where I was born, where dudes were demanding their foreskins back lol

I love when this topic comes up because people definitely don't have a weird fixation on foreskin and totally have balanced discussions that calmly hears both sides.

Not a fixation on foreskins but on personal freedoms and the right to choose what happens to your own body:

Are you an adult? Cut off what ever part of your body you want to. I don't care.

Are you an adult who wants to cut of body parts from others? No. Stop it. Let them decided themselves when they are old enough.

I'm so glad it was done to me when I was a baby. 100% the proper way to do it.

If you intentionally do not recognize it as a legitimate medical procedure with lots of science backed behind it, then you're purposefully spreading misinfo. That's just a fact. Just like how some people in this thread are saying it reduces sexual pleasure, scientific evidence states this is not true. It's also significantly safer and less risk when they're a baby. These are just peer-reviewed objective facts that have been extensively tested and confirmed.

https://stacks.cdc.gov/view/cdc/58456/cdc_58456_DS1.pdf

Haha the irony of you coming out so strongly after your original statement is gold.

Not really, I'm open to seeing any evidence as to why the CDC is factually wrong.

"You know, I'm really tired of having to clean my nails and trim them. I know, I should just cut my fucking fingertips off. That way I don't have to worry about pesky things like dirt or germs living under the nails!"

Don't ask me, I think we should just cut the whole thing off.

Hey, as long as you own what you're cutting I'm cool

No. All of 'em. Americans do go far enough. Everyone should walk around with little nubs.

ignoring bodily autonomy and the right for your OWN CHILD to choose what their penis will look like for a medical procedure that only should be used when a phimosis diagnosis has been made or when you join specific religions (and not for "so he looks like dad" or "my religions imaginary friend collects foreskins of infants")

When my son (2) was born there was decent pressure to circumcise, we were asked leading up to birth, before birth at hospital many times, and many times after.

I'm sure there's plenty of single mothers who don't know any better and just eventually agree. I've been told hospitals sell the cut off for woman's make up stuff

I don't know where you're from, but in the US, hospitals are strictly forbidden from doing anything with biological material post-procedure except 1) biopsy, 2) disposing it in accordance with biohazard containment practices, or 3) limited instances of release to the patient (think kidney stone).

Nobody is selling infants foeskins for makeup. That's fucking stupid conspiracy bullshit.

https://www.allohealth.care/healthfeed/sexual-anatomy/do-hospitals-sell-foreskin

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/hnzg5a/what_do_you_think_hospitals_do_with_foreskins/

Doesn't seem like bullshit, however it is used for more than make up, like skin grafts and bio science. Apparently Oprah Famously said she uses a cream with foreskin in it

Ah, let's see... An SEO article from a clinic in India about the possibilities of what can be done (with absolutely zero citations), a reddit thread and the Coup de Grace, Oprah, who famously gave us "Dr." Oz. I'm gonna go ahead and not choose to give a bunch of credibility to those sources.

It's kind of you to worry about the aesthetics of your child's penis, which studies have shown that it improves body image and sexual satisfaction anyways. You should really leave the medical suggestions to the professionals. There's so much anti-science in this thread going on, I'd assume that I was in a crazy 5G anti vax conspiracy bullshit forum. What is it about medical scientific evidence that makes people so upset? All I'm doing is repeating and sharing established medical studies after all, but apparently that makes people a little emotional. Kind of like vaccinations!

this is NOT about aesthetics. this is about robbing a child of a deeply personal choice.

Suppose we should just not name children until they're old enough to choose their own name too. We're talking about some fuckin skin on the tip of the dick lol. Most will never even know the difference until they go see it in a health class or Google what the differences even look like.

What are the pros and cons here again? The cons of the situation is that they might end up wanting some extra skin at the tip of the dick for whatever reason. The pros is health and self confidence improvement. The pros outweigh the cons here, it's a no brainer. It's a simple medical procedure has been factually proven to improve health and self confidence, and it's by far the safest to perform on a new born.

This is the most idiotic thing I've ever read. They can change their name if they want to. How old they have to be is different from country to country.

Equating naming a child with cutting off stuff from their bodies is fucking stupid.

I had to laugh when they used naming a child as an example. What a dipshit.

like @CurlyMoustache@lemmy.world said: names can be changed. and if your confidence is based on a mutilated sexual organ, then go cut yourself as much as you like, but leave others alone. don't do something irreversible to someone without their consent.

i dont like my given birth name, i could legally change if it i please. In fact i don't like the concept of legal names much at all, but thats a different story.

Lets throw in some similar cases here. Ear lobes, why not just chop those off at birth? They dangle around weirdly and are places to put jewelry. Which can cause injury.

Ever heard of scarification? It's like a tattoo, but subtractive instead of additive.

You ever heard of penile subincision? You just yeet a massive slit into the bottom of the penis, that leads into the urethra.

Why not just do those things to children upon birth?

Multilating childrens genitals for appearance is pretty fucked up.

That choice should be left to themselves and no one else. Unless absolutely necessary of course.

The supposed benefits are very very small and the majority of the world is doing absolutely fine without removing the foreskin of children.

Maybe go back and read all the text you ignored about the other benefits. Would love to see you link any established peer-reviewed studies that can back up your neanderthal level reading comprehension.

I don't give a fuck about those "benefits" which have miniscule impact and can absolutely be achieved by means other than cutting a baby's foreskin.

Adults can cut their dick off if they want, surely a lot of men would do it if those benefits are so impressive.

Parents should not have the freedom to mutilate their babies because they say so. Only if a doctor recommends it because of an actual disease (phimosis or whatever).

That is basic ethics. Don't make unneeded permanent choices for a baby. If it is a decision that can easily wait until the baby is an adult, it is evil to make it for them.

Honest question, did you read this study before you posted it? The sample size is 37 Turkish men who voluntarily applied for circumcision. Do you not find that sample to be extremely small? Don't you think there would be some inherent bias when assessing the psychological effect in people who had chosen to undergo the procedure? If anything, this study reinforces that circumcision should be left to the individual to choose, rather than having the procedure done against their will as an infant.

you're an idiot and so is anyone that agrees to circumcision for an infant.

Very level headed statement after being shown evidence

I've been reading your comments, it's amazing how someone can link an article to 37 grown men voluntarily circumcising themselves and use that as evidence towards why children would like to be circumcised.

You fucking dumb my guy.

That document is regarding the spread of STIs. There's plenty of other methods to avoid those that don't involve cutting part of your dick off.

Science is different than peer reviewed science. The STI study has some big problems (especially moral problems) - one practical problem though is the hiv test in the study isn't accurate for some time (3 months I think) and that messes with their data and wasn't accounted for properly (some test candidates definitely had HIV before the study). Another huge oversight was that a freshly cut man isn't going to have sex for weeks while he heals, deceasing the chances of contracting HIV. Another sign that something is wrong is European countries that have less HIV than the USA. But even if it was guaranteed that you contact HIV 10% less often if circumcised, that's still not even close to a good enough benefit to justify the procedure.

The "data" on why circumcision is beneficial is mostly just cut men trying to justify why they're superior and is biased. The sensitivity being the same claims are silly. Studies done are controversial because measuring sensitivity is hard. A big red flag is reading testimants of adults who got cut - usually they say it was super painful while healing, then crazy sensitive, underwear was uncomfortable and they had trouble lasting during sex. But a couple years later and they'd lost sensitivity. Underwear feels fine, refactory period goes up. This is because of keratinization of the glans of the penis. Similar to a callous on skin tissue

Sure. As I said: adults can cut of anything they want. Babies cannot decide for themselves. It is immoral and barbaric to cut of parts from the bodies of babies.

Condoms gives insanely more protection than a circumcised penis. The health benefits are therefore just a fart in the wind and should not be used as a an argument for cutting people without their consent. Teach healthy sex practices in schools

Cum, I love how your replies are more than happy to pick apart your sources without providing any of their own. A casual scroll through the other comments will reveal that most people who weren't circumcized at birth have issues with it or regret having to have the procedure done later in life.

There's a reason the procedure is so ubiquitous for so long, the science and health research is there to prove it. Same way getting vaccines is mandatory in the US for going to school. Same way abortion would be if politicians didn't keep getting involved in legitimate medical research. These procedures have been studied and peer reviewed for decades by experts, best leave it to them. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/articles/2012/10/greater-benefits-of-infant-circumcision

If you want to have a real argument with myself and cum (lmao) bring your own sources and maybe other people will take you seriously.

Exactly, you get it lol. This is a funny topic because you can simply drop a fact sheet by medical professionals that all overwhelmingly agree on this topic, and then people will lose their mind. That's why I'm only interested in looking for scientifically backed viewpoints instead of people getting so emotional. Reality disagrees with their traditions so they really hate it.

Findings from the University of Sydney suggest that around 38% of the male population globally is circumcised.

Circumcision is the exception. I’m sure the 60% of uncircumcised men across the world live tortured lives. Source

And?

And you’re profoundly misinformed

How is listening to the CDC being misinformed lol

The new CDC guidelines highlight methodologically flawed studies from Africa that have no relevance to the United States. They chose to ignore studies that were conducted in the United States and show no link between circumcision and the risk of sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV (Thomas et al., 2004).

Media literacy necessitates consideration of opposing viewpoints from reputable sources. Not all “experts” agree with the CDC. Source.

Of course they don't. Still, the CDC is very reputable and I trust them over it. It's also ridiculous to say the CDC is misinformation.

I didn’t say the CDC is misinformation, just that other scientists have shown the flaws in their methodology. Science. I have a healthy uncircumcised son. I would have circumcised him at birth if the science warranted it. It does not. If parents circumcise for religious reasons that’s their choice. But it must be recognized that the science used to validate this religious belief is weak.

I think part of the problem with this discussion is that a lot of us who were circumcised without consent spend most of our early years thinking it's normal and there is nothing to be upset about. So when people point out the practice is generally very harmful, it is upsetting. It can be hard to process at first, and I think, unfortunately, some people double down on traditional rationalizations as a defense mechanism.

That being said, I am not a fan of people referring to my genitalia as mutilated/mangled or to me as damaged. It is completely valid to be upset about having your foreskin removed without your consent, but I feel sometimes people veer a little too far in projecting their own hurt onto others. Many people live fulfilling lives with circumcised penises, and some even do it by choice, so, speaking strictly for myself, I generally am glass half-full about it.

Yeah, I think since the practice is based on organized religion and there's no consent when circumcised, the validity of circumcision is quite questionable.

But, medically speaking, is circumcision harmful?

That's a genuine question and I see a lot of uncircumcised people complain about phimosis and the skin flap getting tighter and more uncomfortable as they grow older, being cut sounds better.

It can be very very harmful, with pretty much no benefits. The claim that it helps prevent spread of sti's is thoroughly debunked, and a person's risk of getting penile cancer is way lower than the risk of complications from circumcision. The claim that is easier as a baby is also VERY thoroughly bullshit, on account of a baby's foreskin is literally attached to their penis and has to be ripped away. All that pain and risk and long-term damage for basically nothing, it's kinda fucked up that it's still as common as it is

Your entire post is simply false and outright misinformation.

Absolutely nothing you said is even remotely true.

Shame on you.

Be careful not to offer too much evidence with your dramatic accusations.

But, medically speaking, is circumcision harmful?

Seems to be among the hysterical crowd who's not actually familiar with the medical opinions on this topic. Not surprising.

Oddly, I happen to know a plastic surgeon who performs the procedure in my city, he's apparently the go to guy for it so when given the opportunity to talk about children's genitals I just had to take it up with him....he told me, to my surprise that the vast bulk of his patients now are recently immigrated from Africa. Wasn't expecting that, was more just curious how much bullshit he got on a day to day basis given his specialty.

last i checked according to the ole reliable wikipedia, circumcision is still pretty big in other parts of the world, notably africa iirc.

Society is weird.

It's odd to me, and the specialist that the majority of his work now involves African people rather than the clientele he's been working with for the past 30ish years of his practice was the point he emphasized.

yeah, it's a fair observation, i just felt the need to mention that for some reason. Often times weird things have fairly simple explanations.

  1. Kids can't consent. Parents do it for them in every aspect. This is no different. Making medical decisions for your kids is normal.
  2. You have no reason to be bitter about a legitimate pre emptive procedure to prevent smegma and potential phimosis
  3. Male circ is a safe and sometimes necessary procedure.
  4. Why cant you people be honest? You're bitter we get it. But lying about circumcision is just stupid and doesn't convince anyone to not do it.
  5. Everyone should Google phimosis. Anti circ ppl love to lie about there being no medical reason or excuse it away.
  6. It's none of your business what other people do with their bodies.
  7. There is nothing harmful here at all. It's no different than removing a skin tag. Demonizing it is laughable.

Google says phimosis is fixed easily and is rare to begin with. I think being passionate on either side is silly

Harming babies unnecessarily tends to bring out passion in some.

I'm circumcised and happy about it because of conversations I've had various women about dicks in general and my dick in particular with a few of them. That being said if I ever have a son, he won't be circumcised. Unless his mom is Jewish I guess. But I don't understand the anger around the subject at all.

I’m circumcised, my son is not. If it is your religion, have at it. But forcing religious traditions onto those that don’t have a say is problematic. It’s getting better, but it’s still pushed in hospitals unnecessarily.

It's good you're able to talk sanely about it.

But I don't understand the anger around the subject at all.

It's simply a subject of personal autonomy and body integrity.

Imagine being a grown man or just a teenager and being forced to perform that operation without your consent nor any explanation (as it's mostly useless out of social norms and potentially harmful). I guess you'd be furious, at least.

That's it.

But it's not happening to grown men or teenagers against their will. It's happening to people when they won't remember it and the idea is it prevents minor annoyances about being a man. Archaic and unnecessary? Definitely. But getting mad at people isn't going to change their mind and doesn't help people understand it's unnecessary. That said, being someone who has a mentally unhealthy aversion to bathing, I'm really glad I don't have to even think about "smegma" I didn't even know it was a thing until I was fully grown.

Edit: to be clear, I don't think anyone should do that to their kids. If you can't teach your kid to clean themselves you probably shouldn't have them to begin with. I just think it's more helpful for future kids if their parents aren't circumcising them because they don't want to agree with the annoying angry people online. It would be more helpful to spread knowledge without judgement or making people feel shameful for something they thought was good. That's how you get people to double down.

This is the dumbest fucking list of bullshit

  1. Kids can't consent. Eyup.
  2. Cutting of a body part to avoid cleaning it is a unique kind of stupid argument.
  3. Nobody is against it when it's necessary. That's what is known as a strawman argument.
  4. No one is lying. You are the one trying to convince someone to do something. Not doing anything is the fucking default.
  5. Again, addressing phimosis is NOT the issue people are against.
  6. Babies are not capable of doing anything to their bodies.
  7. It can absolutely be harmful and comparing the removal of nerves and tissue from genitalia to a skin tag is so stupid that I actually think you're trolling.

Thanks for this lol. I started to respond yesterday but as I was thinking about their arguments halfway through I decided it wasn't worth my time or energy (validated by their response to this comment LOL).

You're being 100% dishonest and misinformative in your post.

Why u guys gotta double down on your complete lies when called out?
It's pathetic. Mind u own business and cope with ur sad doggy penis.

Lol. This mf here getting their bs called out point by point with simple rhetorical counters and retorts with a solid "No u. And you have a dumb pee pee." Epic.

Why is this a both sides thing? Circumcision is a Jewish rite that became a larger thing because of a couple mentions in the Christian New Testament. It also has some medical application for individuals with certain conditions.

Doing it to all male babies doesn’t make rational sense unless you are a specific type of religious.

While circumcision has been a Jewish tradition historically, it has come a long way since then. There are decades of medical research and studies that prove that it is a safe procedure for newborns and bring numerous benefits later in life. Please trust the science and not the religious rhetoric.

8 more...
8 more...
12 more...

Mine was at 16 because my foreskin stopped growing. I honestly would have preferred to have it done at birth before I could remember the pain (like my brothers).

Okay, but that's not a good reason to make it standard practice.

Did I say it was?

The point is that there are exceptions and it's not always "mutilation."

Okay? I don't think anyone was arguing against medically necessary stuff

an amputation, even for medical reasons, is a mutilation

I never learned to roll back my foreskin when I was a wee lad and so once when I was 8 it got infected and I had to apply ointment to it and keep gradually peeling it back from its swollen and cemented position like trying to squeeze a tennis ball out of a tight gym sock. it hurt to pee for a week. Still, Im glad to have my foreskin.

I am for one happy to be circumcised (i had a really awful, treatment resistant inflammation, circumcision on young people for no reason is shit)

I had the same experience. Circumcision made my life so much better.

I'm uncircumcised and after fapping when my head is still exposed i cannot wear underwear or pants omfg it's so fucking uncomfortable touching anything dry, IDK how circumcised people live, it's like constant pain.

Desensitization.

Kinda like how martial artists slam their shin into a bat. eventually the shin strengthens and you don't feel it near as bad as you did at the start.

Kertinization. A layer of keratin forms around the head to protect it when circumcized.

I love it, and I have no idea what you are talking about, it's never bothered by being in clothes.

you know I don’t get with no wormies

-Francine Smith

I just wish they weren't doing a 50% off special when I was born...

oh my god, too real 😂 except I was there, my scar is more brutal and I'm all the more stupid for letting it happen. I'll explain, and I'm going to do so in more detail than I ever have before.

I was living in China in 2017 and I got an infection on my guy. In hindsight because I had a new girlfriend, was having a lot of sex, and wasn't cleaning very much. My girlfriend takes me to the local hospital in this "small town" (different meaning in China), and I sit down in front of this miserable looking bloke with a fat, fancy golden wristwatch who says: "你有两个选择 。。。either take this medication and the infection will probably return, or 'peel skin' and be free of it forever."

I looked at my girlfriend with a grin and asked what she thought would be best. How bad could it be anyway if they do it to babies. Probably like getting your ears pierced.

She drags her thumb across her throat and screams "off with his head!" or more likely she calmly says "peel skin." All I remember is that she said it without hesitation. The slimy looking doctor slithers upstairs to the operating room and I get on the table where there's a large light above my head which, turned off, is acting as a mirror. I can see everything as his assistant passes him the syringe to knock out my guy and then the scalpel to begin the scalping. All I could see was a bloody mess when his phone rang in his pocket. I could smell the blood as his assistant removed the phone from his pocket and answered the call. "They want to speak to you" she said. So the doctor puts the phone between his ear and his shoulder and continues cutting and chatting away. "That's my dick you prick!"

The next day my guy is bandaged from head to toe. I tell my girlfriend to stop visiting because every time I get an erection I drop to the floor in writhing pain. Limping along the pavement a group of 80-somethings breeze past me. The pedestrian light goes green and I barely make it to the island in the middle of the road before it goes red again. I lie awake every night, plagued by spontaneous erections and excruciating pain. As the wound healed a grotesque scar formed as a reminder that the body is sacred.

Appreciate your story. Sorry for the pain.

The worst experiences I've had in my life always make the best stories 😄

Genital mutilation under the guise of “easier to clean” is stupid. Cutting off your legs also makes them easier to clean.

What's even funnier to me is how people will full on rage when someone brings up female genital mutilation while in the same breath saying circumcision is fine

Dude, yeah. It’s so weird.

I refused circumcision for my son (25 years ago, US hospital), and had to remind the staff several times because it was just assumed it would be done. I stopped them 3 times during different shifts when they were about to take him from our room for the procedure.

Then when it came up in conversation when he was an infant, people would say to me ‘you should have done it’, because he would get infections (he never did), or he’d be bullied in gym showers (he never did to my knowledge), or whatever. My take was it should be his decision, not mine.

The pressure was really intense, though. It’s weird how interested people can be in someone else’s infant’s penis. We’ve never talked about it, but reading stories from other men, I assume he’s happy being uncut, and I’m glad I didn’t do it.

e: for anyone reading this days later, I did ask my son for his opinion prompted by this conversation, mostly because of responses I got elsewhere in this thread that made me question my decision:

Me: Hey man, so feel free not to answer this if it’s too personal, but I was having a debate about circumcision and another parent challenged me saying I’d made the wrong decision. So yes/no/I don’t want to talk about it cuz that’s weird, do you regret my decision?

Son: I don’t, and none of my partners have, either. I only get thumbs up and compliments. I hope that wasn’t too personal.

Me: Not at all. Thank you for giving me your and your partners’ review!

So yeah, it’s not just my assumptions. And no regrets.

My take was it should be his decision, not mine.

It's not though. They'll never be able to go back and have it done as an infant. Time machines don't exist.

The procedure is much, much easier as an infant than it is as a boy or teenager or adult.

I respect whatever decision you made. There are reasons for both. But no, he didn't have the option to go back and have it done easily.

And sorry about the pressure. You shouldn't have to go through that, and I hope/expect that aspect is better after 25 years.

every slice and dice would be easier as an infant as you wouldn't remember it anyway. you're an idiot

I actually think about the ignored psychological effects of dealing with that level of physical pain so soon after being born a lot.

Birth is already a traumatic experience for both mother and infant. But to then immediately, with no anesthesia, cut an extremely sensitive part of the infants body off? That has to leave some kind of mental scarring.

I can actually speak to this.

I was born with a genetic condition affecting my collagen (Ehlers Danlos), which meant my bones were overly soft and, since I was breach til moments before birth, my legs were bowed pretty severely. This was in 1971, and the treatment at that time was the doctors literally bent my legs into position manually and then braced them for my first few years. That’s not how they deal with it nowadays, because they learnt it was horribly painful.

I don’t remember that initial experience, obviously, but my mother tells me several years later when I was a young child and having problems walking, she took me to the doctor and they finally worked out that I was in excruciating pain all the time. They asked why I hadn’t said anything and I told them it was because everyone was always in excruciating pain, but nobody else was complaining about it, so I shouldn’t either. I’d been in pain since birth, and just figured it was normal.

That experience prevented me from getting proper care and made my early childhood hell. I still have emotional trauma from it. So yeah, early pain is not benign.

I've seen people lose their shit over babies with pierced ears and young children getting tattoos. There's all sorts of dental work you go through as a kid that you have functionally no control over.

Even had someone chew me out because a foster kid I was taking care of got a haircut (three years old and she'd literally never had one before).

At some point, it is the parent's duty to take care of the child, and that extends to medical decisions with profound long-term consequences. I get wanting to change the culture, but the degree to which people exaggerate the harm of circumcision struggles to eclipse the degree to which it is defended.

Cutting off your legs also makes them easier to clean.

There is some substantive utility to legs that doesn't extend to the bit of flesh around the tip of your dick.

Yeah but as a dad, i don’t like legs. I want my kid to look like me. I was amputated voluntarily. Legs get dirty anyway.

Actually, why not just cut off the penis and replace it with a tube? That’s a lot cleaner and still functional!

Yeah but as a dad, i don’t like legs.

Correlating ear-piercing with decapitation, and holding a picket in front of "Forever 21" with a big sign that reads "STOP MURDERING CHILDREN" and a picture of a tunnel drill going through a baby's forehead.

Are you confident you understand what gentials are?

What about your understanding of consent?

Are you confident you understand what gentials are?

Its when you're not jewish.

Yes, you are correct. Only jewish people have genitals. Thank you for playing.

I think they’re trying to make a pun based on how the word “gentile” (which literally means not jewish) sounds very similar to “genital”.

Yeah, I got it thanks. I wish my autocorrect wouldn’t interject itself into conversations but here we are.

Good laugh. 10/10 would laugh again.

If this is /s its verry funny and asys somthing interesting, im frustrated that the thread has fallen into a false dichotomy,

Its not 'not okay' in the same way its 'not okay' to cut off someones leg because thats unamniguiosly being crippled. (Good spoof though!) its amniguiosly immoral.

Yeah a better analogy would probably be female genital mutilation but americans generally aren’t familiar with that.

The real issue is consent. I get that parents consent for their children, but that doesn’t mean the parents are correctly predicting the kid’s preferences.

It’s just a strange practice that we do in america, not due to religion, but due to .. reasons? Cleanliness? “I want my son’s cock to look like mine?” it’s weird as hell, but accepted for some stupid reason.

female genital mutilation

okay.... wow.

circumcision is a harder to understand, wrapped in the cloak of medical hospitality to be blunt, its a different form of female genital mutilation.

I believe its a remnant from old Christianity (Judaism?), where it would mark and/or purify the child in some way. If I'm not mistaken, the god of Abraham communicated that things like sacrificing lambs and other rituals isn't useful as a sign of good will.

but yet this literally unholy practice remains to this day.

to be absolutely fair, mom said yes, telling me the doctors said there was some kind of health benefit, somthing about infections.

Oh jesus christ can we please leave this stupid circumcision bullshit on reddit?

Well, you didn't leave your dumbass comments there either so, pot calling the kettle black

Would you rather talk about the Genocide in Gaza?

Sure; it's absolutely awful and I hope somebody intervenes soon. It's also embarrassing that as an American our money goes in part to fund it. What else would you like to say about it?

Oh right, you're just once again being a disingenuous douchebag who is trying to equate real world harm reduction voting strategy with implicit endorsement of a genocide as if the alternative wouldn't only exacerbate the situation, still refusing to actually use your own words but rather relying on the better words of others, only now in this totally unrelated thread.

Good job falsely assuming I have pro-zionist opinions just because I believe in practical application of real world policies and strategies though! I had to unblock you and the other dude from that thread temporarily so I could restore a removed comment; I appreciate the reminder to block you again.

Finally to your other point in the previous thread, I don't block opposition discourse, I block disingenuous bad faith actors. You know, like you.

For all necessary context, see the following thread in full: https://lemm.ee/comment/8402332

It looks better cut than uncut. Change my mind.

"the human form looks better in a certain color"

yes i realize this isn't inherently racist, im making a joke to point out how silly this is

I'm in the minority here but I got it done to me as a kid (no choice, barely aware etc) and I'm grateful for it. Just way cleaner overall and no discernible difference - there's the rumor that it affects sensitivity but I'm just as horny as the rest of the damn men are. Also because I was so young (or maybe the docs at the hospital were skilled), the only scar is a tiny scab on the under side that doesn't affect anything. I wouldn't endorse it for children but I can't argue it was terrible either.

It affecting sensitivity is not a rumour, it's a fact. There are nerve endings in the foreskin. Ergo, it must remove sensitivity. And this can be corroborated by many who get the procedure done as adults.

And the "way cleaner" thing makes zero sense unless you don't have access to running water. The world outside of the US + Middle East aren't walking around with dirty dicks, and if you don't have running water, all of you will be dirty regardless.

There are babies in the US that die each year from circumcision complications. It causes pain. It reduces sensitivity. Plenty of them are done "traditionally' - i.e. without any pain relief or sterilisation. It leaves scars. 5% of circumcisions are botched, sometimes causing pain and discomfort - particularly during sex - for the man's whole lifetime.

It's completely unnecessary, and barbaric.

The fact that we're in 2024 and there's still places out there cutting parts of the dick off of babies as a religious or quasi-religious (in the case of the US) ceremony is crazy.

It's "way cleaner" in the same way that spraying fabric freshener on a pair of shit stained underwear is "way cleaner'.

If you wash your dick the cleanliness isn't a problem

Also sensitivity has nothing to do with how horny you are.

the reason he mentioned the horny bit was ironically the exact reason this was started in the first place, because the man who tried to make a cereal so boring it would kill morning wood, said it would make people less horny (well not just Kellogg but many others as well)

Fun fact: the same guy also wanted to burn girls' clits with acid so they wouldn't masturbate either, though that didn't catch on.

I'm not saying cleanliness is a problem, it's just easier to clean. If you exercise often, it's easier to maintain a short hairstyle clean than a long one for example.

'Horny' may have not been the best term to use but I hope the message got across. If I was more sensitive before getting cc'd, then I must have had one hell of a hair trigger

Dude, as someone who was cut as an adult (medical reasons) i can tell you that the change in sensitivity is H.U.G.E.

I have WAY less sensitivity afterwards and it gets worse over time.

Here is an alternative Piped link(s):

hair trigger

Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.

I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.

Lol how is it cleaner? You just wash your dick and it is clean anyways. You are juat trying to justify it because you dont want to blame your parents for cutting pieces off you to fit their aesthetic.

I've had a foreskin all my life and it's just another part of your body that you learn to care for, like ears.

Also like ears, it takes a little bit of extra work to care for your foreskin, but it's worth it because not-unlike ears, foreskin heightens your sensitivity to stimuli.

Also, like ears, the idea of lopping it off is barbaric on its face. We in the west are happy to use the descriptive, and more emotionally resonant term 'genital mutilation' when we talk about the equally barbaric practice that is forced on females in other cultures, but we still hide behind euphemism and branding when talking about mutilating perfectly good penises.

Also, this is intelligent design? You leave at least two defects in the V1 production push, refuse to release a day 1 patch, and your hot fix for one defect is just to cut if off - eventually, meanwhile the appendix is just left to lurk.

Goods not as advertised.

just way cleaner

Man, just wash your dick. Everyone should wash their dick

there's the rumor that it affects sensitivity

rumor

Hmm

Man, just wash your dick. Everyone should wash their dick

While we're at it: No, washing your ass doesn't make you gay, America. Being gay makes you gay.

there's the rumor that it affects sensitivity

Just to offer a correction to this for you, it is not a "rumor" but physiological fact. Circumcision removes the frenar band, which is very densely innervated and a principal errogenous zone for those that are uncircumcised, additonally, the Meissner's corpuscles, which contain thousands of touch receptors and tens of thousands of endings that are biologically specialized for sexual pleasure are amputated.

I can't, personally, attest to the effect as being cut is all that I've ever known but, the evidence is undeniable about the fact that circumcision diminishes the male sexual experience.

You're probably correct. All of this non-consensual body mod shit, for men and women, sucks.

What's done is done, but I won't repeat the mistakes. I also harbor no Ill will about it either, I'm living life with the hand I've been dealt, and having fun too.

Absolutely! Though, if a low-risk procedure becomes avalable to restore it with full biological functionality (all the nerves, glands, etc), I'll absolutely get it, if I can. I don't harbor ill will either as, probably, none of those involved had any idea, with how commonplace it is in the US.

I'm just happy that I wasn't the recipient of a botched circumcision and that they are pretty uncommon in the developed world at somewhere around 0.6% but in some developing nations that shoots up to a reported 5%. And that's a pretty fucked up amount of risk to subject one who cannot consent to such a procedure to.

I got it done as an adult for medical reasons. I stand fully behind everything you said. But: I don’t have any scar whatsoever

Getting it done as an adult is fine. You consented. I'm also fine with piercings or tattoos on adults but not on babies for the same reason. Though that's a bit of a false equivalence as genital mutilation is more dangerous and less reversible than those other two, so I guess I find them less objectionable, though still fucked up.

Getting it done out of medical necessity is also fine, for pretty obvious reasons.

Forcing it upon a baby for no reason isn't.

Why do people downvote you for just sharing your experience in a manner? I’m circumcised too and glad that I am.

Because he's A) talking nonsense, and B) making genital mutilation of babies sound like it's not that bad.

You want part of your dick cut off? Cool. Do it when you're old enough to consent to it. Genuinely. If that's what floats your boat, then do it. People should have the right to body autonomy. Slice your ear off as well if that's what you're into. Anything.

If this were about tattooing babies, or piercing them, or cutting off their earlobes, everyone would rightly be against it (even though all of these are less dangerous and less likely to have complications).

It's only because Americans, Jews, and Muslims are used to this practice that they accept it. If it were a new thing, it would be seen as the barbaric practice that it truly is.

I believe there's also the element of "well if I admit that circumcision of babies is wrong, that means there's something wrong with my penis. And I don't want there to be something wrong with my penis. Therefore I'm on the side of genital mutilation being ok."

God damn you have some serious issues my dude. Sorry your parents traumatized you but you need to calm down and stop attacking people who have different opinions than you. He said he got it done and he was grateful for it, let it go and stop downvote brigading because he doesn’t fall into line with your cronies. The whole Brogan anti circumcision crew from Reddit was one of the cringiest groups that I wish never migrated over to lemmy. They were so self righteous about their stance they would never listen to arguments from the other side, and were 1000% convinced everyone else was a monster.

I for one am happy mine was done, my dick is plenty sensitive and it doesn’t look like a crusty ant eater. My sexual partners have been very thankful for the same, and I’ve received numerous compliments to the same. The truth is, most women find uncircumcised dick to be pretty gross. I can see a few reasons for that, and one of them is simply the look, but the other is because more than a few of them had to deal with a dirty fucking uncut guy who didn’t wash probably and it was nasty af and left them with a bad impression of uncut guys.

No issues here. I'm against mutilating the genitals of babies, like a normal person.

The people who have serious issues are the ones who get happy at the thought of taking a newborn baby and slicing part of their dick off. They are brainwashed.

You'll notice I said it's good that he likes his circumcision. Just that it should've been done as an adult, with consent. Not forced on him as a baby.

I'm sorry that you view cutting off parts of babies' dicks to be a great cause worthy of championing. That's pretty sad. That cutting off parts of babies in a needless procedure that frequently goes wrong is something that gets your mutilated dick hard.

And yeah, being pro baby mutilation is something that a monster would like. Unironically, to mutilate the genitalia of babies is something we should view as being the actions of a monster. But religion drives people to do crazy things.

Hahahaha most women absolutely do not find normal, un-mutilated dicks to be ugly. Quit making shit up.

I'm really sorry you got mutilated as a baby. Genuinely. Hope the scarring isn't too bad and you were one of the lucky majority who don't get a botched circumcision. But you need to get over this insecurity about your dick.

“well if I admit that circumcision of babies is wrong, that means there’s something wrong with my penis. And I don’t want there to be something wrong with my penis. Therefore I’m on the side of genital mutilation being ok.”

Because this particular internet conversation moved beyond any kind of rationality somewhere around 2002

Yeah, the people against mutilating the genitals of babies are irrational when they talk about how fucked up they think forced genital mutilation is.

It's definitely not the people who dogmatically defend cutting off parts of baby genitalia despite all the suffering and issues it causes, who are behaving irrationally.

If you want to have parts of your dick chopped off, more power to ya. But do it when you're a consenting adult.

This is a barbaric practice that itself is only a surrogate for the much more barbaric practice of child sacrifice.

To suggest discussion of it moved beyond any kind of rationality is laughable because its very foundation is a rejection of rationality.

Let's have a rational discussion: what is your best, rational, science-backed reason for supporting the nonconsensual mutilation of male infants?

I know some of those words are emotionally provocative but they are 100% accurate and simply not cloaked in polite euphemism, and you need to engage with each of them on a rational basis.

I eagerly await your thoughts.