Maybe you haven't noticed it, but many people are deeply irrational.
Happy cake day!
Thanks!
They are taught about it from childhood and many of us don't questions stuff we've learnt in our childhood.
Education fails to instil scientific temper in them
Lack of proper mental health awareness and support.
Even if they do question, it’s not like they are in a safe environment to do so openly. They have to be prepared to give up community, friends, family, potentially their physical safety, and a worldview that says exactly who to be and how to live to be living a good life. That’s a huge step.
I know for a fact there are religious people going through the motions because the alternative is too frightening, just like people stay in bad marriages.
Right. Throughout human history, if someone was cast out of a community, they didn’t survive. We’ve been trained through evolution to go along with the tribe because it’s unsafe to question anything and get cast out.
Survival of the fittest. Evolution does not value truth or mortality, so for example secret rapists are a highly successful adaptation regardless of the morality of the action. If evolution is a correct model of reality, this pesky religion and moral agency will diminish with time. True progress. Maybe we can start counting the years from the big bang instead of that Jesus event or w/e!
I agree. The support aspect is very strong. Can't go against it, unless you are lucky and/or skilled. Or very brave.
They are taught about it from childhood
in one single word >> Indoctrinated
OP this is why people believe in religion, and it's nearly impossible to get them out of it, you can't reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into in the first place
I find this a seemingly straight-forward point I've never gotten a religious person to acknowledge.
99.99999% of people follow the religion they do because their parents did. Not because it's true. That Christian, that Hindu, that Jew. It's just because they were told it was true at birth.
If their religion was actually the Truth, why would that be the case...?
I find this a seemingly straight-forward point I've never gotten a religious person to acknowledge.
because they don't see it that way, they have their own understanding of free will, religion sells itself as test ( for the most part ), if you pass the test ( temptation or whatever you wanna call it ) you're qualified to enter heaven, so in a way even if you're born christian or a Muslim you still going to get tested, so in their view it doesn't change anything, but from our perspective, it changes everything because we bet that if their parents didn't make them that way, they would never go that route on their own...
99.99999% of people follow the religion they do because their parents did. Not because it's true. That Christian, that Hindu, that Jew. It's just because they were told it was true at birth.
That's why we must address the root cause of all this, which is religion, in Islam for example "Prophet" Mohammed piss be upon him, said
“Every child is born in a state of fitrah, then his parents make him into a Jew or a Christian or a Magian.” (Agreed upon)
As you can see, Mohammed doesn't apply his own observation on his beliefs and because people glorify him, they will never dare to question his reasoning, which is also their own reasoning now..
You can tell a religious person to criticise everything and everyone, and they can, tell them to redirect their critism to their own belief, and suddenly they'll become intellectually handicapped
Education fails to instil scientific temper in them
Islam used to be the forefront of scientific and mathematical discovery. Believing in god have nothing to do with science or math, it's superstition, something that cannot be proven or unproven, it's that irrational thought that make us human.
Islam used to be the forefront of scientific and mathematical discovery.
People of all religions have contributed to scientific growth.
The average religious person and the person discovering scientific/mathematical stuff are generally different tho.
Universal basic education has gained focus in many parts of the world, only relatively recently.
I think improved scientific temper would obviously clash with many mainstresm religions.
Presence of some supreme creator may not be proven or disproven, but I think the anti-evolution stuff and similar things in most mainstream religions would face more questions when scientific temper improves.
And I'm not saying that non-religious people are safe from similar stuff too. Just that it is easily spread and maintained when you have a community on it.
Presence of some supreme creator may not be proven or disproven, but I think most of the anti-evolution stuff and similar things in most mainstream religions would face more questions when scientific temper improves.
And religions can evolve with this (or die from declining membership), as long as the leaders don’t stick to the “These actually scientifically proven facts are lies sent by the Devil” line.
Islam used to be the forefront of scientific and mathematical discovery.
No, Islamic COUNTRIES did. They didn't achieve excellence in science because Islam benefitted science.
They achieved excellence in science compared to Christian countries in large part because their religious authority figures didn't stand in the way anywhere near as much. Not because religion helped.
Believing in god have nothing to do with science
Not true. They are polar opposites. That's why scientists are disproportionately atheist and agnostic: the evidence based mode of thinking employed in science doesn't mix with the superstitious and unquestioningly convinced thinking of religion without some SERIOUS cognitive dissonance.
it's that irrational thought that make us human
No. That's not being human, that's being brainwashed and/or obedient to authority.
You're right that it's irrational and that irrationality is an inherent part of being human, but the SPECIFIC irrationality of religion is learned and enforced, NOT inherent.
Thank you, I think people often overlook how faith and scientific thought can be complimentary. In any case, for questions of religious/spiritual matters, people are basically just running with a hypothesis that works for them. As long as they're capable of being self-critical and aren't pushing their beliefs on people who aren't interested, then it seems fine to me.
Because belief is intrinsic to humanity even if we don't believe in religion.
I believe in a lot of human concepts, including kindness, altruism, democracy and humanism. They are all still effectively made up human ideas.
I also believe when I sit down that the chair below me really exists but I cannot truly trust my own senses 100% either. So effectively I "believe" what my sensory organs and brain interpretation tell me, but the reality is the brain and its interpretations can be wrong.
Look at the USA, the founders of the nation are often treated with a reverence akin to that of religious figures.
People have all kinds of delusions. People worship all kinds of weird things. Religion is just one of many.
Finally, someone like Ayn Rand shows that a human can have pretty reprehensible and hypocritical beliefs even if they are an atheist. She promoted bullshit "great men" theories of humanity and argued that selfishness could be used for good.
She also died penniless and on government benefits while spending her whole life preaching against things like government benefits.
People are deeply irrational even without religion.
As an atheist who is not anti-religion, I wholeheartedly agree. The religious do not have a monopoly on irrationality, or weaponizing ideology.
I see many atheists on forums proposing the idea that if we could only just get rid of religion, the world would be a harmonious and rational place. As if human beings wouldn't still be perfectly able to come up with new and interesting ways to rationalize conflict and division amongst themselves.
I like to say "Humans aren't rational creatures, humans are rationalizing creatures."
We can rationalize nearly anything and justify it, in our own minds.
Thank you for being honest.
Humans are emotional creatures. We can’t change that. Even when we’re being rational we’re still basing every decision we make on emotions. “I’ve researched this and I feel this is the right decision.”
I like this explanation most
I believe in a lot of human concepts, ...
We believe in those things because they're practices we can observe and measure. The real question is why do theists not have the same standard of evidence for theistic claims.
I also believe when I sit down that the chair below me really exists ...
Your trust (or "faith") in the chair existing and supporting your weight is because of your experience with chairs in the past. I don't think many people would say they have "absolute certainty" the chair exists and would hold them.
If you had a history of hallucinating you might have a higher standard of evidence, but it's still there to be tested. The problem with religion is it seems like you need a standard of "none at all" to accept theistic claims.
Finally, someone like Ayn Rand shows ...
"They do it too" doesn't really get us to an answer, just another "why" question. She believes her claims with little to no evidence, theists believe their claims with little to no evidence, but like...why?
Here are a few reasons people believe:
Meaning and Purpose: Religion can offer a framework for understanding the universe and our place in it. It can provide answers to big questions about life, death, and morality.
Community and Belonging: Religious communities can provide social support, a sense of belonging, and shared values. This can be especially important during difficult times.
Comfort and Hope: Religion can offer comfort in times of grief or hardship. It can also provide hope for the afterlife or a better future.
Tradition and Identity: Religion can be a core part of a person's cultural heritage or family identity. People may feel a connection to their ancestors or cultural background through their faith.
Ethics and Morality: Many religions provide a moral code that guides people's behavior. This can be helpful in making decisions about right and wrong.
I don't believe, but I can see why people stick with it and don't look beyond it. You can get all these things without religion, its just not something that's taught/passed down in the same way as religion is. Additionally, deconstructing is very difficult. You're raised to believe something to be real and you're expected to just drop it and step out of Plato's cave? You'd look like a madman to any friends/family who aren't willing and ready to step out and look around.
As a large language model, I cannot endorse any one religion
Come on, this list of reasons was written by an LLM
It makes people feel better, not in general but better than others, most religions are about "this is how I'm better then you heathen"
The one point I can really agree with is the meaning and purpose part. I’m not religious and the whole what happens after death part really fucks me up quite a bit. It’d be really damn nice if I could just go “I’ll go to Heaven” and be done
Personally I don't see what the afterlife has to do with your purpose or sense of meaning in this life. For me, I figure my purpose is whatever I find fulfilling in life while hopefully helping others do the same. Anything that comes after that is a bonus.
Part of the identity crises that comes with(out) religion is the ultimate question of purpose: why are we suffering, surely it has a reason? Some of us are content to accept that there is no purpose, and therefore we must define our own; others need a purpose greater than themselves and/or to have one defined for them, and look to religion for that purpose. There is no right answer, and the struggle of identity and purpose are well documented in religion, fiction, history, and philosophy.
Also, it can depend on certain other factors.
My partner and I had a difficult conversation recently about how we plan to handle her brother when her mother passes.
Her mother is obviously religious and raised him religiously Christian.
He is a sweet man with a severe developmental disability. Things literally take a very long time for him to learn. He still acts like a teen and he's pushing 40. That's not his fault, that's just life. We love him.
The thing is though...
We don't believe in religion, but we also think that when his mother finally passes, it would not be wise to try to turn him from Christianity.
He struggled and still struggles years later due to the passing of his father. The idea of being able to see his father in heaven is big to him.
At one point, he panicked because he was playing DOOM 2016 on his game console, and he asked my partner (his sister) if he was going to go to hell for playing it. She reminded him that the Doomslayer kills demons and loves bunnies and reminded him the themes of the game say demons are bad, even if the game itself is violent.
We don't think it's worth it to try to break his brain when he's over 40 and his mom finally passes. Hell, she's in good health, he could be over 50 when it happens. He has a learning disability and it would literally be unfair to him to try to force a change in belief on him at such a late stage with such a disability.
It's not worth it to wreck his mental health so we can feel better about being "truthful" with him. We're focusing on trying to relate healthy interpretations of Christianity to him.
Serious answer:
I can't speak for anyone else, but I believe in a religion because I've found it to be personally beneficial.
I was a pastor for many years and saw much of the best and worst religion had to offer. I haven't stepped foot inside a church since COVID broke out and don't know that I ever will again.
My personal beliefs are still a significant part of my life, but I understand why someone would ask the question that spawned this discussion.
You find it personally beneficial, but you haven't actually answered the question.
I think that does answer the question - for a lot of people, the reason they're religious is because they find it personally beneficial for one reason or another.
yup, religion has made me mentally stable so I guess it's beneficial to me at least.
I guess I'm putting emphasis on the word "believe" and you seem to be seeing religion as a way to find comfort. This is why I feel you are not actually answering the question that OP posed.
Perhaps I'm taking the question too literally.
Adding more to this. The question is why do you believe in religion, not why you are religious. To me, there's a difference between the two of these.
There is a significant difference, but, in my limited experience, many people are religious, but don't actually believe, but they think they do believe. When the rubber hits the road you find it what a person actually thinks is
true.
Think of your closest friend or family member. Do you "believe in" them?
I'm not religious at all. But in responding to your question OP: we don't have to understand why people believe. Religion just isn't for us, and that's fine. Other people find it has value, and that's fine too. The fact that religion has lasted this long with this many people is proof in itself that there's some value people get out of it. We don't have to get it to understand that.
All the comments here that explain religion solely as dumb or irrational are just as closed minded as the people they're criticising.
On point, additionally religion has also effectively associated itself with spirituality. It's also associated itself with caring for others, volunteering, community, togetherness and acceptance. Additionally it's a great place to network and organize communities. Even if belief has faded, tradition is usually important with that group of people.
It's only recently in the past century or so that serious spirituality in our culture has been able to detach itself from religion, sometimes forming new ones
Hard disagree. Religion has a measurable impact on people voting against the rights of minorities, and it deserves every bit of scrutiny it has coming its way.
It's not like Bigfoot or flat earth. This shit is having serious consequences for others, physically and mentally.
Religion itself? Or man using religious dogma to justify the uglier natures of their internal belief systems and cherry-picking religious quotes to shoehorn their false righteousness into moral discussion? Religion is a powerful tool and it can be used to drum up donations for an orphanage, or leveraged and wielded by people who aren't seeking to enlighten themselves at all apart from learning how to use religion to control people.
I agree with you. Using religion to manipulate people for political reasons is not really a religion problem. If you eradicate religion, there are many other levers to pull. In fact, manipulating religious groups these days also requires using these other weaknesses against people and then convincing them to ignore the conflict with their religious teachings.
Ahh yes, agreed. Like prosperity Jesus wanting you to be wealthy despite saying in the Bible "it's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven."
Or a year round favorite: "Love thy neighbor" (unless they're people we don't like, such as LGBT, immigrants, liberals etc. )
It's also a great path to getting people to do what you want. I was already an atheist when my father and I had a philosophical discussion regarding religion when I was an adolescent. He brought up this point early in the discussion. I only need to look around at all the bullshit laws getting passed that religious zealots vote for against their own interest to confirm that this is true.
The Southern Baptist Church just had their annual conference and decided that their position on Invitro Fertilization is against the procedure. How does that help anyone? It doesn't.
It is just as easy to point to the ideas of the extreme members of the “new atheist” movement as evidence that they are a dangerous cult.
Using the Southern Baptist Church as your example of religion is not a very good argument. Implying that atheists are somehow more rational as a group is not really a great argument either.
By the way, I am an atheist. I do no consider my beliefs to be unassailable scientific conclusions though. I recognize that many of my beliefs and preferences lack the robust rational foundation I would like them to. I doubt I am the pinnacle of morality or ethics ( more than doubt - but I am not looking to trash my own reputation here ).
Voting against your own interests or scapegoating others for what you see as damage against yourself or even just plain old hate do not require religion. Humans have lots of ways at arriving at those and being manipulated into them.
The year has little to do with it. The only things we've really undeniably progressed in over the past century are scientific knowledge and the level of technology. Existential philosophy hasn't exactly made breakthroughs recently, to my knowledge.
Each person still needs to find their own answer to the fundamental questions of "why am I here" and "wtf is death and how do I deal with it".
Our mechanical, scientific understanding of reality provides fairly depressing answers to these questions. Religion? Sunshine and roses.
Also, on a more practical factor: childhood indoctrination and cultural inertia. Most people are raised in religion and they find it "good enough", so religion continues.
I find it more depressing that there is a God that decides what is good and what isn't and gives us "free will" just so He can torture us for eternity if we dont do what He wants... kinda fucked up ngl
Fortunately I don't need any more reasons to live than enjoying my day to day, being with the people I love, doing my little projects etc.
Oh, continuing down that line of thinking leads to far worse then "kinda fucked up." If the judeo christian deity exists and is accurately described by their books than it is a total monster not worthy of praise or devotion...
What I understand about the judeo christian god is that they are believed to have created everything that has ever been or will ever be. They have total knowledge of everything past present and future, and they "knew me" prior to them creating me, knew what kind of person I would be, and knew without doubt that I wouldn't believe in or worship them... so they created me with full knowledge that I'll spend eternity being tortured in hell. What kind of benevolent deity brings a creature into existence just so they can be tortured? If that's not full blown fucked up, then I don't know what is.
You've basically touched on one of the core logical issues at play in Abrahamic religions (and others). God is omnipotent and omniscient, or people have free will. It can't be both.
Here is a nice visualisation of the logical paradox:
In some religions walking away from the church means being excluded from family, social, and business contacts. So cutting ties with everyone you know basically.
So better start believing in some magic men.
You can just like, say you do. I think a lot of people who check “Christian” in the US have little to no involvement in it beyond saying “thank God” occasionally.
I remember reading a story in my Spanish lit class about a guy who wasn’t attending church, and his mother was freaking out, so the family priest went to talk to him. And the priest was like, “I totally get it. After all the evil I’ve seen I don’t really believe either. But I continue in this because it is my life, and I can provide comfort to people. Consider attending because you love your mother and it will help her.”
In 2024 life is hard and you can't do anything about it in most cases. Religion gives you an excuse for why it must be so, so that you can keep grinding away.
Need psychological support in times of distress
Gullible
sense of community and shared experience
You're definitely not gullible right?
Not religious either.
Indoctrination.
This is a pretty broad question, it really depends on what you mean by "believe in religion":
Believe that a particular holy book is literal, historical truth.
Believe in the moral teachings of a particular holy book and follow its practices.
Believe in the existence of a universal higher consciousness (God)
1 is a vocal minority, and the reasons have been sufficiently explained elsewhere in this thread.
2 is much more common, and can derive from a number of reasons. Cultural identity generally determines which holy book (and interpretation thereof) you follow, but the attraction to moral framework is deeper than cultural identity. Having a set of guidelines to inform moral behavior, and a method of alignment and focus (prayer) is very valuable.
3 is a metaphysical consideration, and pops up even in 2024 because consciousness is still a mysterious phenomenon. Every explanation leads to roughly the same conclusion: if consciousness is an emergent property of complex interconnected systems, then it stands to reason that the most complex interconnected system (the universe) is more likely than not to be conscious; if consciousness is some external force that complex systems can "tune into" like a radio, then it stands to reason that "consciousness" permeates the universe; if consciousness is something else which defies scientific description, then it stands to reason that there exists some agency to dictate the rules.
Those are, broadly, the rational explanations of consciousness of which I'm aware, and they all imply a universal consciousness of one variety or another. If you can think of another I'd love to consider it.
If you meant something else by "believe in religion", let me know.
Another big reason is reason number 4
Gives a sense of community and cultural connection that other things don't quite provide.
I've met a not so inconsequential amount of people in my life that when pressed admitted, they don't believe in god, don't believe in the moral teachings, but attend a place of worship because they think there is no replacement for the interwoven community and cultural connection their place of worship provides. Many people simply like the community connection of their root culture. This is especially true in minority groups (black church, synagogue).
This is me and my family right now. Two days ago we had lunch with our pastor to discuss the design of the church's nursery and I came out as atheist and my wife came out as Buddhist. The pastor didn't challenge us on any of that and we ended talking about what drew us to social justice causes. We believe in each other and that is enough.
That's another big reason to practice for sure, but I think it's a stretch to call that belief.
None of the things by themselves fully justify "belief" in a religion yet many people claim they are without a true belief in the entire system. It's the problem with such a vague question. By a narrower definition very few people attending a place of worship are true believers. Someone can believe in god, but not really believe in the rules, and still say they are "religious". Someone can believe in the rules, but not god, and say the same. I think if you are practicing the religion to some extent then you have a right to call yourself religious if that's how you view yourself regardless of your true beliefs on god, rules, etc. Cultural impact matters more than we give it credit for.
It's very rare that you find anyone on Lemmy/Reddit that actually takes more than eight seconds to critically think about the significance of "religion," and not just immediately monkey brain into "religion is for idiots." Alas, I hoped that this particular group think would've stayed behind.
A belief is not a religion, and a religion is not a belief. Any one person can be varying degrees of "religious," and any one person can hold varying levels of belief in a higher power.
I don't have much else to add because your comment was pretty well thought-out.
This 👉🏼 #3 👆🏼
They are raised with it and old habits die hard.
The fact that some people start as atheists and later become religious demonstrates there has to be more reasons than just that.
You are correct. However, relatively there are a tiny amount of them and their reasons are not good reasons.
Almost always, they are in a vulnerable state and at that time have also been exposed to some kind of religious indoctrination specifically tailored to take advantage of that.
It's easy to see this from the perspective of brainwashing techniques used by cults. Religion just has more developed techniques for longevity.
some people start as atheists
We all do. It takes effort to instill beliefs and usually greater effort to change them. Education is the most common inoculation.
Your understanding of their reasoning comes from a fundamental assumption that your choice is the correct choice for every person. They willingly made the wrong decision, therefore they must have been manipulated into doing so.
Many people do just become religious without outside influence. On a large scale, every society will create its own version of religion without fail. Clearly, they have something to gain psychologically by doing so.
While religious indoctrination obviously exists and obviously is a problem, it doesn't discount the actual benefits that religion seems to have, and by extension the reasoning with which some people become religious.
We all do.
When I said "start", it was in reference to the process of changing your religious identity, not your life as a whole.
Never personally met an atheist that had found religion or heard about one, other than in American evangelical stories, but I've met a few non-religions people who have later in life found religion. Although I live in a quite atheaistic country, so there is a lack of peer pressure or need to talk about such things.
I had a friend whose dad was a pastor at a decently sized church. I never believed in religion and he was cool because he would actually listen to what I said rather than plugging his ears and yelling. (you know what I mean). I went to his church one Sunday to humor him and it was Ok. His dad was relating current events to the bible and it wasn't total horseshit.... UNTIL, they passed the plate thing around for donations. "Give your money to GOD" is what was said. I asked my friend what the hell does god need my money for? He made the earth in seven days, he can make his own damn money. My friend said the money goes to the church to put on events for the children and feeding the needy and honestly, good things. I said ok, then tell me to donate my money to the church to support this instead of god.
Many years later he has his own church and when they pass the plate around, he says donate to the church and explains where the money goes. I call it a little victory. Religion is still a load of crap though.
You're very lucky to have such friends.
Isn't the firey interpretation popularized by Dante's Inferno?
Dante's Inferno went into detail that was not biblical, but there's enough in the bible that writing it off completely is cherry picking.
"They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Like it or not, people who went to prayer house or religious gatherings socialise more than people who stay indoor and only interact with limited amount of people. Assuming there's no fishy business going on with that particular chapter, they tend to be happier considering the fact human are social animal and the feeling of loneliness due to lack of human to human interaction is the build-in alarm system to warn us against solitude. It's this reason religion is so success because it's enforce togetherness and make you feels like you're part of something.
If we're going into a utopian world where human doesn't need to work anymore and social security is guaranteed, religious will be something even bigger than today.
Edit: forgot to mentioned, am atheist and give no shit to skyman, but somehow on the internet atheist can't have opinion that's not shitting on people with faith.
Nah, I like my community without the side of eternal suffering that so many religions like to threaten you with for varioua reasons.
I'd put my money on huge adoption of D&D in the utopian future before I put it on religion.
I too don't like my community centered around religion, but everywhere i look, religion tend to be the biggest community gathering around the world.
Like it or not, people who went to prayer house or religious gatherings socialise more than people who stay indoor and only interact with limited amount of people.
While this statement is true, its also true even if you're not religious. I was not raised religious at all but always got together with family/cousins/friends nearly every weekend.
... they tend to be happier considering the fact human are social animal and the feeling of loneliness due to lack of human to human interaction is the build-in alarm system to warn us against solitude. It’s this reason religion is so success because it’s enforce togetherness and make you feels like you’re part of something.
Kinda. This study [0] of 3,942 19-year-old in Sweden put it best:
... religion and religiousness per se have little impact on happiness. In particular, we find that social networks tend to be positively associated with happiness, and that this effect is driven by co-organizational membership among friends.
So while religious upbringing can force people to socialize, that doesn't mean the lack of religiosity will have a negative impact as the lack of religion does not dictate that you will not congregate/gather with peers/friends/family and feel the same level of "belonging" to a group - even if its not a well defined group.
If we’re going into a utopian world where human doesn’t need to work anymore and social security is guaranteed, religious will be something even bigger than today.
I'd say this claim is unfounded. Why must we turn to religion? There are clubs, groups, meetups, friends, events and niches of never ending categories that easily fulfill the need of "belonging" to a group - it's actually one thing humans are really good at - forming "in" and "out" groups.
Yes, i do agree on all the thing you said, what i'm saying is it's not mutually exclusive. Religious people can and will go to religious meetup and all the other non-religious gathering too. I know that because i have some friend that do both. It's not the case of black and white, this or that, do and don't.
The issue i have with OP's question and a lot of atheist is they tend to put religious people as a one dimension entity and think highly of themselves because they "aren't like that", that irrationality is what they accuse religious people have. It's that sort of tribalism that cause a lot of conflict, and i fear tribalism more than i fear religion.
We don't need religion, we did at one time. When we didn't know why or how people got sick, why sometimes crops would be plentiful and other times famine or why the ground shook sometimes or even just figuring out morals
But we know those things now and when we encounter something we don't we have the knowledge and tools to figure out what's up.
We don't need churches for a common social place, we have parks, libraries, community centers and community wide events to invest in. We can socialize and learn other cultures around the world in an instant. We don't just have random villages and tiny cities any more, we have large and diverse cities so we everyone can have a little of everything they're interested in.
At this point, all religion does is serve as yet another thing to divide us.
It is very difficult to accept mortality if you don't believe in an afterlife. Religion brings comfort, and comfort improves mental health (at the cost of some delusion).
Not really. Altruism is ultimately self-serving whether an afterlife exists or not. People generally don't want to spend their life being wronged by others or have their life taken altogether, so we have a pretty good incentive to not do those things.
I'm not sure how that relates to what I said. Morality ≠ mortality.
Ooooh I 100% read "morality" lol, my bad
All good. Yeah I think morality is not really something religion helps with.
Ignoring the inherit assumption that religion is de facto an issue or backwards, and ignoring the fallacy that "progress" is co-liniar with the passage of time, logic is not in of itself a perfect humanistic process of thought, rather it has been developed by humans over the millennia.
There is great comfort in the process of growing into and exploring one's faith. Growing up in a theologically liberal Christian church, I was invited to find ways to meld the kingdom of God and the kingdom of man is such a way that I find purpose and vocation within my life. Religion also offers a place for community among people committed to a mission, be it good or bad. These communities preserve and honor cultural traditions, again, the good and the bad. These are just a few reasons I think people are now, and will remain well into the future, religious.
I definitely get the sense of community aspect of religion.
The social aspect might be underappreciated. My guess is people are mainly introduced by family and friends and it becomes a big part of their identity. It becomes difficult to separate the individual elements.
You have a cult following around celebrities and you are surprised by religion which is older than you?
The difference is we have evidence that celebrities exist
Gods are literally just a psychological comfort blanket to explain the unexplainable. Most religious people don’t put that much thought into what they believe, challenging concepts are just tucked nicely away in the “Gods will” box and they move on. I think everyone copes with those brain shattering concepts in their own creative way or risk getting buried alive in anxiety.
Indoctrination and ignorance, notice how a big chunk of its members are old people. Younger people are less interested, thankfully. Also, for some people, it is a social club.
Weirdly I know quite a few people who converted to being religious as adults. As children, they weren't raised with any particular religion.
I think people just want something to do and some encouraging people around them.
Because the lowest common denominator is much MUCH lower than you think it is.
This means it's easy to indoctrinate and easy to maintain that for a massive number of people.
Scientific illiteracy is extremely high, and actual "6th grade reading comprehension" is the highest level of literacy for > 50% of a country like the U.S. and ~20% are low literacy or actually illiterate.
This means that half of everyone in the U.S. can read and understand what they read at or below a 6th grade level. This isn't "reading big words", it's "tell us about what you read", "what is the relationship between x & y" type questions.
This comment for example, up to this point only, would be difficult to understand & comprehend for > 50% of people in the U.S. (it demands an 11th grade reading comprehension). And may be misread, misunderstood, or not understood at all.
People are driven to religions to cults and alt conspiracy theories when they don't understand how the world works around them. They latch onto extremely simple often misleading or incorrect ideas of how the world works because they can understand it and it "makes sense" within their sphere of ignorance (we all have one, this isn't meant to be a disparaging term).
This means that the problem is that humans are just not smart enough to escape religion yet. It's the simplest answer, and it appears to be correct.
Add to that the fact that there are people who use this fact, and try and control people using religion for personal gain.
I agree. At the root of it, people want to feel safe. This is a fundamental need. Religion does this for them because they don’t need to make decisions and they’re promised that if they follow it they will indeed be kept safe. Also spiritual bypass is awesome.
Having been raised in a religious household and having escaped it later in life to become an engineer/science nerd, while being ostracized by my, incredibly, incredibly disappointing parents because they refuse to learn new things or acknowledge scientific studies that conflict with their religious views:
This answer is unequivocally, absolutely, a 100% correct take on humanity and their need for the "simplistic" and incorrect answers religion gives about the world around them.
It's like asking why people smoke.
Is it bad for you? Yes.
Is it a burden on society? Yes.
Is it addictive and does it make you feel good? For some, yes.
I'm an effort to get you an answer that isn't dismissive:
Youth indoctrination, social conformity, and cultural isolation. If your parents, friends, and most of your community tells you something is true, you are unlikely to challenge it for a variety of reasons including trust (most of what they've taught you works for your daily life), tribal identity, etc
People naturally fear death, and one coping strategy for the existential fear of death is to convince yourself that the death of your body is not the end of your existence. Science does not provide a pathway to this coping strategy so people will accept or create belief systems that quell that fear, even in the face of contradictory evidence. Relieving the pressure of that fear is a strong motivator.
Release of responsibility. When there is no higher power to dictate moral absolutes, we are left feeling responsible for the complex decisions around what is or isn't the appropriate course of action. And that shit is complicated and often anxiety inducing. Many people find comfort in offloading that work to a third party.
The alternative is absolutely unfathomable. Like I am an atheist and the fact we exist in any capacity is insane. Where did everything come from? Where will it go? People
believe in religion because it's easier.
When I have an existential crisis over it I sometimes wish I was religious.
I feel the same way when I think about how when ever you get a whole bunch bunch of stuff together in one spot, it frickin warps time and space and that's why I'm standing and not floating.
I, for real, want to know if there are any religious/spiritual people here commenting because yikes. I think a lot of people also interpreted your question to be about organized religion, and specifically christianity of the US variety. Please seek out other religious thoughts - I've found much Jewish thought on religion to be of interest. For myself, I'm not christian and not Jewish.
I'm religious because growing up, I adopted the values of the religion I was taught - values of kindness, openness, and inclusion. It's as core a part of my being as my ways of cooking or socializing. To not be religious would feel like hiding parts of myself.
The routine of following the practices, as well as religion/spirituality being able to help us face the unknown we still have in our lives. It can provide internal strength and belief in our ability. I also find the routine a way to connect to my family, my culture, and to my day-to-day. My religious time is more a time of internal reflection on my own actions and if they align with my values. Do folks without a routine religious/spiritual practice do the same?
The community aspect some touched on is huge. I read a book, Palaces for the People, where it mentioned that those with strong social connections fare better in times of crisis. While there are institutions that are getting to the same influence of religious institutions, they are still far less impactful.
I guess this is all less a belief and more why do people still engage with religion. But why do we believe, what is the act of believing? I don't have to believe that the sun will rise every morning, but, I do still believe it will rise every morning. Belief is a whole area of study alone I'm sure.
It seems like you're equating being religious with everything except accepting theistic claims. You can have everything you've mentioned without religion. What OP is asking is why do people accept theistic claims despite there being little to no evidence for them?
I don't have to believe that the sun will rise every morning, but, I do still believe it will rise every morning
You believe it'll rise because you have more than thousands of instances of this happening at the same time every day. You didn't just decide to believe it, you believe it because you found good reasons to believe it.
Try deciding to believe you're a levitating purple dinosaur. I can't, can you?
One popular answer is that sometimes people just experience things that they find scientific answers to not be able to answer adequately. We as a species are still far from knowing everything.
aka "God of the Gaps"
Humans psyche is a meaning inference recursive engine, semiotically I mean, following Charles Sanders Peirce's Theory of Signs, it generates meaning and thus needs a story to explain it, or simply to tell itself.
The story doesn't need to hold sound logic or any objectivity true to reality, it only needs to convey the meaning that it generated so that the mind can believe it more than questioning its validity.
Long story short, humans really likes being told and believing stories, and often they are the ones telling the story right to themselves.
Cause a lot of people care more about feeling comfortable than feeling statistically probable.
This is likely not the best place to get answers for this question.
I like how all these answers involving science fail to realize that the scientific method was used exclusively by many scholars and students who had no historical evidence of giving up their religion.
Empirical evidence is as old as humans, and afaik the modern scientific method has been in use since the Islamic golden age if not older.
The key here is that many of these people did not consider religion an empirical issue but a philosophical and ethical one. Particularly with the monotheistic religions, this would make sense because you can easily argue that it would be impractical to test for the existence of God.
I think a better question would be why do people believe in their respective religion if it contains a glaring contradiction(s).
I think there's something that always seems to get left out of these conversations and that's that "when I practice my religion, I feel something that I don't feel otherwise" is frequently a true statement for the religious.
I've often heard self-described atheists say that, often when conversing/debating with religious folks about why they believe, the conversation comes to a point where the religious person will say "I've just had a personal experience" and the atheist, unable to relate to that, really has no way to advance the conversation beyond that.
Were I opposite some fundamentalist Christian or something in such a situation, my response would be "yeah, me too! That's totally normal."
I think the beligerantly nonreligious either can't relate to religious experiences or don't want to admit to having had them for fear of embarassment or maybe rhetorical concessions. And the religious typically haven't had such experiences outside the context of their religious practices, or if they have they still attribute it to their religious beliefs, and so take it as proof of their beliefs.
And these religious experiences are very real and very normal. Probably some people are more prone to such experiences than others. But despite how the religious tend to interpret them they have little to no relationship to one's beliefs. One can have experiences of anatta ("no-self" in Theravada Buddhism) or satori (sudden, typically-temporary, enlightenment in Japanese Zen Buddhism) or recollection (a term from Christian mysticism) or kavana (Jewish mysticism) or whatever without accepting any particular belief system. There are secularized mindfulness and meditation practices that can increase one's chances and frequency of experiencing these states.
But, unfortunately, the history of these experiences has been one of large religious organizations claiming and mostly exercising a monopoly on such experiences.
These experiences feel very deep and profound and can be a very positive (or negative!) thing, even affecting the overall course of one's life. And they can be kindof addictive in a good way.
All that to say that I think any conversation about why people believe in religions today is incomplete without taking into account that for many people, their religion is their means of connection with some extremely profound and beautiful experiences. Though people only accept beliefs along with those experiences because they don't know these experiences aren't actually exclusive to any one religion or any set of beliefs. And those experiences are 100% real and tangible to them. (Whether they correspond to anything real in consensus reality is a whole other conversation, but the experiences themselves are a normal human phenomenon like orgasm or schadenfreude.)
Just some followup thoughts:
Like I alluded to earlier, meditation can be dangerous. Do your research first and know the risks.
If you want to know my personal beliefs, my beliefs are that beliefs don't matter. Personal experience does. "But do you believe god exists?" Honestly it'd take me a good hour or more to give a proper answer to that question. Let's go with "neither yes nor no" for the short version.
Every culture has these experiences. Humans likely have had them since humans have existed.
Thanks, I had the same hunch but I didn't yet put into proper words and ideas.
Do you think, should we extrapolate those experiences to something beyond or just accept it as part of human nature?
There's a western meditation guy named "Daniel Ingram" who I have a certain amount of respect for. He readily answers questions about the risks and benefits of meditation-related things as well as the subjective experience of them. But any time he is asked about the "real world" (like, the metaphysical implications of these experiences), he responds that he's "a pragmatist" and won't speculate about the nature of reality or the existence/nonexistence of entities or powers.
(That said, there is one and only one story he tells that seems to have made him believe certain supernatural claims about the real world. He was "practicing magic" and drew an amber pentagram in the air and someone who hadn't been present at the time later walked into the room and said "you just drew an amber pentagram in the air right here." Or at least that's roughly how he tells the story. And he does seem to believe there's something to that beyond the natural.)
I'm not quite the purist he is. I don't think it's necessary to straight up refuse to believe anything about the real world or the nature of reality. And I don't think that there's nothing that can/should be gleaned about metaphysics from subjective ("religious") experiences. (My experiences with contemplative practices has definitely changed my mind about some metaphysical things. The nature of conscious and of reality, the existence of capital-G-"God" (though the answer I find most compelling now definitely isn't "yes" or "no"), etc.)
But it's also important to keep it in perspective. Some of these experiences can feel like the most important thing every to happen to anyone. (That's probably how many/most religions start, honestly. Someone has a mind-blowing experience and tells everybody about it and everybody else grossly misinterprets it because these experiences are ineffable -- can't be put into words -- and before you know it you have the crusades and witch burnings and abstinance-only sex ed.) But a contemplative practice, done well, will tell you not to hold too closely to, well, anything really (potentially "except god"). Coming to some belief and holding it as the most important thing ever or basing your whole personality on it is absolutely problematic.
My advice is to hold any beliefs you come to from a religious experience (and any other beliefs you have for that matter) "loosely". And I think this is helped by not restricting yourself to one religious system. Borrow from both western and eastern religious traditions. Monotheistic, pantheistic, pagan, etc. Indigenous spiritual practices. Even left-hand-path stuff. The more you do that, the better you drive home to your reptilian brain the point that nobody has a monopoly on religious experience and often those experiences even contradict each other.
I guess one other thing to mention is that adpting a particular set of religious beliefs can potentially be a boon to one's contemplative practice. But for the reasons above, it can be dangerous.
Thank you for taking the time to write this out, I probably would've been busy for a couple of hours trying to formulate my fairly similar take!
Maybe to add another aspect for - I think that the sheer ability of humans to have religious experiences in all denominations, which are often described as feelings of connectedness, does not necessarily mean that there is a higher being or reality "out there" that is being connected to in those moments.
But it does mean that our brains have religious experience as an in-built function (which, as you described, has been needlessly enshrined in religious institutions), which might mean that being able to have these experiences is an important part of being able to survive, or maybe even to thrive, as a human being, which also means as a community.
But it does mean that our brains have religious experience as an in-built function (which, as you described, has been needlessly enshrined in religious institutions), which might mean that being able to have these experiences is an important part of being able to survive, or maybe even to thrive, as a human being, which also means as a community.
And that's a take that I couldn't have put as well as you did, and I wholeheartedly agree with.
I think whatever cognitive faculties separate us from "the animals" (or at least some animals) comes at a cost. Most animals live very in the moment. We're largely the only creatures that have panic attacks because of some imagined future event, and we worry constantly. The default mode network and the internal monologue let us plan for the future, but also makes us worry for the future, which is definitely maladaptive.
Religious experiences let us greatly mitigate that by showing us, even if only temporarily (and sometimes people can achieve permanence in this), by suspending the DMN and internal monologue.
Suspending worry for the future might be a plausible function for religious experience as an evolved feature of the human mind, yes.
I would also point towards the biological fact that while the existence of a higher being, consciousness or reality, is still ineffable, even after having had an experience that felt like there might be one, there is also an empirically true, measurable interconnectedness for humans that can be tapped into.
We live, and have evolved, in and through ecosystems that highly depend on interconnected species and processes that are so complex and intricate that we are still working on fully grasping them, and still discovering new connections (unfortunately, it's becoming more and more because we have disrupted the connections by environmental damage, and the ecosystems start to fail due to that, making the connection obvious only after it ceased to exist). Connection between humans in the form of love in its many forms is also the ultimate glue that keeps societies together, and if that capacity diminishes due to circumstances, bad things tend to happen.
The myriad of connections we need to live, and to thrive and to feel like we are whole - all of this fully seen and experienced in their abstracted totality could in my eyes be one of the bases for religious experience.
And if that is true, it gives also another function - then, religious experience is the anchor and has a rebalancing function that makes sure that we don't get lost in our own heads and human constructs, and keeps reminding us that we are part of the ecosystem, too, and keeps us from using it in a self-destructive manner. There are several deeply spiritual, nature-connected societies that only became so after a local environmental crisis caused by themselves. Tapping into the interconnectedness through religious experience has helped them find another, arguably better way.
(Of course, it doesn't seem to be a hard, global fail-safe in human history, given the current state of the world, so I don't know how direct this function would be.)
I honestly think it’s a coping mechanism that is hard wired into us.
Most if not all ancient civilizations independently had some sort of belief in a higher power.
It’s a way to deal with the death of a loved one and your own mortality.
Alternative ways of explaining the world have been around for like a century and a half, and religious conversion is slow.
Why we did religion in the first place instead of just "I dunno where stuff came from or why" is a much more interesting question IMO.
I don't find it surprising given that the vast majority of people don't research the claims that other people make. For example, during the GameStop short squeeze, people came to the conclusion that corruption or collusion was at play, when in reality it wasn't for the most part.
People would rather listen to a guy who says something confidently than a guy who says "I don't know." The former gets to spread their word, and the latter gets ignored.
Yeah, we seem to just be gullible on average, when it comes to certain things.
I believe it started with a sense of security. Don't worry, there's a reason and someone is in control of this shit show. Feels better than we're on this crazy freight train called life that is almost completely out of control, no one knows where we're going, no one knows how we're going to get there, and we basically have no control over any of it.
Oh someone is in control don't worry about that!
That's just the Catholics. We're talking about all religions.
If this is referring to Buddhism, I believe that's considered a philosophy and not a religion. I think you need a god for it to be a religion.
Or both, idk it's all up for interpretation? Just looked it up and "they" can't agree. 🤷♂️
There's a degree of just feeling viscerally like the supernatural is around us, too. Not everyone has that, but some people certainly do. Then yeah, we also want to answers the big questions in a satisfying, even comforting way. Particularly modern monotheism has a deep component of offering a way the world is fair, actually, despite all appearances.
It looks like religion is a thing that started with modern humans, just based on archeological finds, but I don't know why or if it was adaptive. Some scholars will talk about the beginning of religious finds as a beginning of abstract thought, but it seems to me that even a damn dog can make a creative guess about how the world works, so that's not it.
but it seems to me that even a damn dog can make a creative guess about how the world works
In my view, there are two components to “religion”.
1 - it typically starts with an attempt to explain why and how things are
2 - it becomes a human administration - this becomes more about politics than “religion”
Most of the problems with religion stem from the second part. I see the politics as the far bigger problem there. So people that want to create political movements around “science” are absolutely no better in my view.
If you read the question being asked in this thread critically, do you find it a scientific question? A political one?
So what you're saying is that here in 2024 we've got it all figured out?
*Note that: 2024, everything figured out.
“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” -Shakespeare
There's physics. And there's metaphysics. One does not come to Faith the same way one produces a hypothesis.
I disagree with your last line. A hypothesis is a great analogy for faith. It’s a belief that something is true. Science involves testing the hypothesis, just as faith can be tested.
It’s important to remember that science, by definition, does not prove anything either. There are only supported and unsupported theories.
I think that for most people it's nothing more than a social club. I have always been skeptical ever since hearing absurd stories about arks and being eaten by whales, but every once in a while (especially after sobering up) I went into various churches to see if I might have been missing out on something. Invariably I just found a social club of people just looking for excuses to feel better about themselves. Anything good that happens is a direct blessing from a doting god; anything bad is always the devil....personal responsibility is never part of the answer. Many are just uneducated and dont know how to think; they accept whatever Grandpa says as truth without any consideration, and this extends to pastors.
I am atheist; my wife is a devout believer...but more and more she sees something horrible happen and can't deny it when I point out that religion did that. She still has her higher power but is starting to see the brainrot and brainwashing in her friends and family and can't understand why they do what they do while calling themselves 'christians'. It's not faith; it's just social self-service.
Objective reality doesn't matter to you if you close your eyes, cover your ears and insist on living in a fantasy world.
Let's put it this way, if I went around basing my entire understanding of reality on Greek gods, people would rightly think I was fucking nuts.
Do it with the bible though...
Or Islam, Judaism, Hinduism or any other major religion.
But no, suddenly I am the maniac for believing that – in reality – we are pink elephants, hopping on the moon and imagining life as we believe it to be true. No one can prove I am wrong. But uh oh, sky grandpa mad.
(/s I don't believe anything. Just making a sarcastic point.)
I'd say it's partly to find some comfort with life's many uncertainties, and one of several ways to achieve a sense of purpose when struggling for some.
Religion dissolves uncertainty. Why does….? Because the sky man said so. How does….? Because the sky man made it that way. What should I do with my life and how should I live it? Here’s a book written by the sky man and it has all the answers. No more thinking… I suppose it’s probably of great comfort to many.
Because (Christian) "Faith" is a unique, arguably delusional, cyclical belief system based on feelings. It's similar to the anti-vaccine mentality of "that's just your opinion" when it's not. The biggest difference being that there is no proving or disproving the existence of God.
And Faith is built on this self-referential system of "you gotta have Faith in God because God is real and God is good and strong Faith will help you continue believing in God when you are otherwise challenged, and weak Faith is a sign that you are straying from God and you should strengthen your Faith by believing in God harder because God is real and God is good..."
I used to be more religious and also thought "believe in whatever you want to believe in as long as you don't be a dick about it," but that's really been changing a lot lately.
Christianity has fallen so far and so many self-diagnosed Christians are just the worst type of people that I just couldn't relate to them anymore and felt the need to distance myself.
There have probably been (speculation because I don't feel like looking up details right now) more deaths in the name of Christianity and the Christian God than any other religion and that continues to this day.
I contribute modern day deaths from pregnancy complications deprived of needed health care, general lack of other health care for low income families, LGBTQIA2A+ suicides or other deaths, and more to "traditional Christian values".
Christian Nationalists can go fuck themselves and rot in their own hell they hate so much.
Because they keep having experiences they can’t or have no interest in explaining.
The existence of one or more gods can't be conclusively proven or disproven. So it makes sense to me that some people believe in it and others don't.
The funny thing is that people believe very specific things about gods, like that there's only one, or that they're nice or at least have similar values to us.
Or give a shit at All about you ...that one's hilarious.
Vast incalculable cosmos to rule but God gives a shit about an ant? Ok buddy. U just want my $10 for this week's plate
Or literally look like a specifically male human. What he does with those two legs when he already exists everywhere, nobody knows. It's not just the Abrahamic religions either, all the myths of the world have a bit of anthropocentrism to them. That was excusable when we had no better ideas.
My favorite interpretation of that was in Mage: The Ascension. Man being "in God's image" wasn't morphological, it was in man's ability to reshape reality to his whims.
On the subject of fiction, I was thinking about H.P Lovecraft when I wrote this. His whole thing was making a mythology that's not anthropocentric, and incorporates that character of vast incomprehensibility that our modern science has.
Dear (my) god, you folks are irrational. If someone acts a certain way, judge them for it! But judging anyone with faith just because you don't believe in that!? I can't prove God exists any more than you can prove they don't. If a religious person acts kind, fair, and rational, you shouldn't have anything against them, should you? But this post isn't about American right-wingers, or extremist Islamic Muslims, is it? It's about anyone who has any faith at all, just because you don't believe the same thing. Caring Christians literally building homes for people internationally, Sikhs feeding anyone, no matter their beliefs...
I know I'm going to get downvoted for this, but that's literally small-minded.
It’s a post asking why people believe in religion. People who don’t believe in religion or spirituality really have no reason to comment other than to condemn. The arrogance of atheists on Lemmy is very disappointing.
Disappointing, but not surprising.
What would you think of someone who goes door to door trying to convince you a blubbery clown rules the universe from planet zebulon?
Is that a normal person just doing normal person things?
For the non-religious, there is no difference between the person above and a relgious believer.
I think it's reasonable to ask why people still hold unfounded beliefs with the greater interconnectedness of the world making it pretty plain that not all these religions can be divinely inspired truth, so many of them are necessarily imaginary.
For me, I just do. It's just who I am and what I feel. I don't really talk about it outside of my church friends, but I just believe. I don't think the Bible is terribly accurate and regard it much as I do Arabian Nights, a book of fantastic stories based loosely on events. I also think it has much to offer in teaching you how to treat others and live your life as a good person, and that's what I take away from it. I find Jesus honestly a touch creepy, but I never stop believing in a higher power of sorts.
Also I honestly have made the best friends I've ever made in my church life. Horrible homophobic Christians aside, there's some really excellent people who genuinely love you and do good things to meet there.
Search Engine is a great podcast and that was a great interview. For me it didn't really answer the question though, but I guess the answer is very individual.
It is a great podcast. I liked his answers but my perspective is different, that's ok.
We've proved the popular religions wrong definitively, but the truth's turned out to be unbearably horrifying for most people.
Because they did in 2023
When you're brainwashed from birth, it's difficult to recognize you've been brainwashed.
Religion is primarily a social phenomenon, so as long as people want to belong to a larger group then there will always be people willing to believe whatever non-falsifiable truths they need to in order to belong to one.
I mean... In my life I've gone from a (naive child that took my parents words for fact) theist, to agnostic atheist, all the way to whatever the fuck I am now. It's all a matter of perspective.
You go deep enough into metaphysics you can trip yourself the fuck out.
Our tendency to perceive agency in ambiguous situations sheds light on the origins of cognitive biases like religion. Our minds, shaped by eons of natural selection, are finely tuned to err on the side of caution. Think of a group of ancient hunters traversing the savanna. A rustle in the tall grass could be merely the wind, or it could be a lurking predator. Those who instinctively assume the worst and flee are more likely to survive than those who dismiss the sound and remain vulnerable.
Over time, this survival advantage has led to the evolution of cognitive models that favor the perception of agency, even when there is none. We are prone to seeing patterns, faces, and intentions in random events because the cost of mistakenly attributing agency is far less than the cost of failing to detect a real threat. This explains why we might see a face in the clouds or feel a presence in a dark room. Religion is a direct byproduct of this phenomenon.
Furthermore, it's important to keep in mind that every contemporary belief system stems from an uninterrupted chain of development, tracing back to the earliest human societies. This implies that every ideology has enjoyed a measure of success, having endured the test of time. This makes it difficult to definitively assert that one set of beliefs is fundamentally "more correct" than another, as truth is often subjective and dependent on context. After all, the effectiveness of a belief system in enabling a culture to thrive and grow is perhaps the most relevant measure of its "truthfulness."
If somebody grows up in a religious environment, then religion becomes central to their world model. It's not an isolated concept, it's an integral part of the tapestry of their mind. Our brains, like all physical systems, operate within the constraints of energy efficiency. Assimilating a new idea requires mental effort, as it necessitates restructuring our existing cognitive framework to accommodate the newcomer. This, in turn, translates to expending energy to rebalance the connections within the neural networks of our brain. If a novel concept clashes significantly with our established beliefs, the energetic cost of integration can be substantial. Radical ideas that demand a significant restructuring of our mental models, such as challenging deeply held religious beliefs or political ideologies, may be discarded, deemed "too expensive" from an energetic standpoint.
This principle helps explain why it's often so difficult to change the views of others, regardless of the soundness of your argument. The strength of the argument alone may not be enough to overcome the inherent inertia of our entrenched belief systems.
I think it's comfort. That can be if different things for different people and it can be many things at once.
Spiritual comfort that your god loves you.
Emotional comfort that you can do no wrong.
Community comfort that you and the people like you are the chosen people.
Life/death comfort for what happens after death.
Intellectual comfort to know all the answers.
Vindictive comfort to hate the people you want to.
It can just keep going.
Also, confort for having a higher being supposedly take care of you like your parents did when you were a child. Anything to soothe the loss of infancy.
Because religion evolved to thrive in us.
It's like a parasite, and our mind is the host. It competes with other mind-parasites like other religions, or even scientific ideas. They compete for explanatory niches, for feeling relevant and important, and maybe most of all for attention.
Religions evolved traits which support their survival. Because all the other variants which didn't have these beneficial traits went extinct.
Like religions who have the idea of being super-important, and that it's necessary to spread your belief to others, are 'somehow' more spread out than religions who don't convey that need.
This thread is a nice collection of traits and techniques which religions have collected to support their survival.
This perspective is based on what Dawkins called memetics. It's funny that this idea is reciprocally just another mind-parasite, which attempted to replicate in this comment.
“Fifty thousand years ago there were these three guys spread out across the plain and they each heard something rustling in the grass. The first one thought it was a tiger, and he ran like hell, and it was a tiger but the guy got away. The second one thought the rustling was a tiger and he ran like hell, but it was only the wind and his friends all laughed at him for being such a chickenshit. But the third guy thought it was only the wind, so he shrugged it off and the tiger had him for dinner. And the same thing happened a million times across ten thousand generations - and after a while everyone was seeing tigers in the grass even when there were`t any tigers, because even chickenshits have more kids than corpses do. And from those humble beginnings we learn to see faces in the clouds and portents in the stars, to see agency in randomness, because natural selection favours the paranoid. Even here in the 21st century we can make people more honest just by scribbling a pair of eyes on the wall with a Sharpie. Even now we are wired to believe that unseen things are watching us.”
― Peter Watts, Echopraxia
Because they're convinced it's true. Given that billions of people in the world ( I strongly expect it's the majority) would claim to be religious - perhaps the better question is: "why does anyone not believe in religion?"
Simple, if any religion was true and objectively based in reality, why the fuck do they need missionaries to spread it?
If any religion was true, it would have measurable, verifiable, and predictable traits that would be discovered in isolated societies. If all of mankind's knowledge was erased, we would eventually rebuild our understandings of physics, biology, chemistry and mathematics as they are today. If all knowledge of religions were erased, we would never get the same religions back.
Education is the reason
I guess a part is that science seems to meticulously avoid the question "why do we live", in a non-technical way, in a way that actually gives people a sense of meaning.
That and mental inertia, i.e. some things change very slowly.
I believe in religion. It definitely exists. Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism etc. They all exist. Guaranteed.
How can you not believe in them?
Humans are tribalistic, like leaders who are assertive and charismatic, like simple answers, are easily swayed by emotions, fall victim to logical fallacies, and a plethora of other things that all work just fine if you're operating on a tribal level as we did for most of human history, or rather prehistory. Now that we are in a different phase of technological growth, which has brought with it massive social change, getting rid of all of that superstitious nonsense is very difficult because of aforementioned characteristics. What were beneficial as it tribal species, and arguably even after that, is now a liability. Or at least more of a hindrance to progress.
Because it's been the way it always has been, because people also hate change, are lazy, and tended to prefer both avoiding cognitive dissidents and minimizing effort to achieve desired results, getting rid of religion is a nightmare hassle. Even when the evidence is right there in front of them, people don't care. At least not enough of them. They'd rather listen to their authority figure, or do what all their friends are doing. Which if you're doing what all your friends are doing it just turns into a circle jerk. But since they're in that circle jerk, they tend to just stay in it, and because the people in it are their friends or family, they defend it because it's their tribe. We're kind of hardwired that way.
TLDR, people are dumb monkeys.
A big part of all of this is indoctrination of children. If you didn't introduce religion to children while they are at a vulnerable state, religion would quickly be relegated to a fringe cult.
The percentage of people that aren't flooded with this garbage as children that turn to religion once they are adults is miniscule and could easily be ignored.
The problem is that religion is so powerful and ingrained that they are able to sustain bombard children at a steady pace.
Because they have enough evidence to satisfy them that they should, if they're rational; because they were taught to and never questioned it through self-examination, if they're not.
Note that evidence is not the same as proof; other users have pointed out examples of evidence such as 'testimony from trusted authorities such as parents' and 'personal spiritual experiences' and since those answers were very detailed I won't repeat them here.
I am not even remotely religious. But I take science pretty seriously.
Please tell me, scientifically, why you are so sure that people of faith are wrong?
There is some decent science that prayer does not work. I am not aware of anything offers anything at all testable concerning God.
And if we are simply pushing our preferences on others, I think a more important question is what makes people that claim to be evidence driven to adopt such strong opinions on things ( without evidence ) that they feel comfortable publicly slamming the preferences and values of others ( again with no evidence at all ).
As a science fan, you can say that absence of evidence means you do not have to believe. Correct. You cannot say that an absence of evidence proves your guess correct such that you can treat people who believe otherwise as stupid. Incorrect.
And “they have to show me the evidence” is a moronic stance. As a fan of the scientific method, evidence is YOUR burden of proof. For people that adhere to a religion, their standard is FAITH. So, they are holding up their end and you are dropping the ball. So what gives you the right to be the abuser?
So, I guess my answer to “why do people believe in religion would be”, “well, people still have faith and tradition and science has not produced any evidence that credibly calls that into question”.
Why are people not arriving at this conclusion on their own in 2024? Why have we failed so badly to explain the scientific method that people can still make wild pronouncements like this one.
I don’t like religion because it makes people easy to manipulate. People that treat science like a religion exhibit the same problems. I am not a fan of that.
I am certain that Russel's teapot is not orbiting Jupiter.
If you want to hypothesize about the existence of some kind of demiurge then that's one thing, but religions are about some really and weirdly specific gods with very specific rules and systems and laws without a shred of evidence for anything.
That teapot is orbiting somewhere. I have no idea if my universe is the one.
Saying that you “know” there is no God is an extraordinary claim. Do you demand extraordinary evidence from people that make that claim? Or do you only demand it from people following a philosophy that requires them to believe independent of evidence?
Honestly, this is about as smart as religious people demanding miracles before they will believe in Science.
I do not demand evidence that Ruasel's teapot is not orbiting Jupiter. It's clearly not and anyone who thinks it is is a quack.
Please tell me, scientifically, why you are so sure that people of faith are wrong?
Because they all offer competing and mutually exclusive hypotheses.
Christianity tells us that the one true path to salvation is by accepting Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour.
Hinduism tells us that our next life will take place in this world, based on our actions in this life.
Islam tells us that Mohammed is the one true prophet.
Buddhism says that there are no prophets, enlightenment only comes from within.
They make contradictory claims, so by definition they can't all be right, and they typically claim that they are correct and the other explanations are false, so even if one religion is correct, the rest (comprising of the majority of the faithful) must be wrong.
Religion is an old form of it is what is, hope, direction, tradition, and community.
Can't explain a thing or understand it God's will or only God knows. Can't do anything to help a person because they are in surgery pray or talk to God to wish for good outcomes.
Don't feel loved or know what to do or wanted. God loves you, will show you the way, and wants you.
Most traditions and communities in the west were founded on a religion so you have hundreds of people to connect with at a church and maybe millions world wide that will help. Those raised on books of wisdom or what is right and wrong still tend to keep the values even after they move away from the religion but realize they can have values without divine beings
Lastly control. Just like businesses it is easier to control people under a religion so if you can get people indebted, traditionalized, and ostracized otherwise. You can control people easily. Lots of people don't know what to do and why trust another human being but if a human being says wisely God said this it is easier to accept and gain a direction
In vsauses video "The Future of Reason" he talks about how logic is a best seen in a group context, (a group consensus). So if a group of people agree on something, that is how it is. You can also put in some "if its not important to change the consensus for the group, don't change it" as to why belief in groups doesn't change very fast. Also the social and economic aspect, groups have people, people need people, you can also more easily find skilled people in a group.
(both religious and secular groups). Examples of belief, god cannot be observed directly, but religious people still believe : scientists can't find dark matter, but they still believe that it exists. The most important reason is that groups in general serve the people that are in them. Religions keep together well because the majority of people believe in the group consensus (e.g. god), and get to contribute and gain the benefits of the group. Universities are a good example aswell, as they provide employment, teach skills, and foster community and independence.
Good question btw
I can think of four possible reasons:-
It works on my system - We are shaped by our experiences. To someone who had their life turned around by a religious order (or a religious individual), it would make sense to follow their teachings.
Opium of the masses - Life is filled with suffering. It is nice to imagine that there is someone looking out for you. An afterlife free of suffering is even better.
Just following orders - If you want to do something, but don't think your community will support you, it is easier if you say 'god told me to do it'. It might also make it easier to justify the action to yourself.
Church of England - You don't care much either way, but it's too much of a hassle to leave. Plus meeting your friends and neighbours every week is fun.
First of all, I want to make it clear that I'm glad to answer genuine questions made in good faith (no pun intended), but I won't argue with anyone.
I'm a practicing Hellenic Polytheist and this is my personal experience. I do not only worship deities with names and myths, but also the twinkling of stars, the waves of the ocean, the colors of a sunset, the kindling of a fire on a cold winter day, and the rustling of leaves in the treetops. Sometimes I look at the sky and see stars so far away that we will (probably) never reach them, and that feels divine to me. There's something that can't be described with words that is too great for a human to understand, and I find that something so beautiful that I will worship it.
Got a bit poetic there, but I also think that my relationship with religion has also been influenced by the good old autism a lot. I find the psychology behind religion very fascinating, and I think that for some people, especially those who have been raised in a certain faith, it is a "home" that provides comfort in difficult situations. For some people, the thought that a recently deceased loved one is now in Heaven or has been reincarnated as someone/something else is probably a lot easier to accept than that they don't exist anymore in any shape or form.
That being said, I also want to state that I always try to maintain a healthy sense of scepticism with my beliefs, whether they be religious, moral, or political, because blind belief never leads to anything good. I think that sadly the darker aspects of religion, such as cults and using religion to justify unjust power structures (the patriarchy or the divine right of kings for example) are hard to get rid of.
Because we're more akin to LLMs than we might be comfortable to admit. Or at least parts of us, subsystems of our psyches... Brains are belief engines more than they are objective parsers of reality.
Maybe you haven't noticed it, but many people are deeply irrational.
Happy cake day!
Thanks!
They are taught about it from childhood and many of us don't questions stuff we've learnt in our childhood.
Education fails to instil scientific temper in them
Lack of proper mental health awareness and support.
Even if they do question, it’s not like they are in a safe environment to do so openly. They have to be prepared to give up community, friends, family, potentially their physical safety, and a worldview that says exactly who to be and how to live to be living a good life. That’s a huge step.
I know for a fact there are religious people going through the motions because the alternative is too frightening, just like people stay in bad marriages.
Right. Throughout human history, if someone was cast out of a community, they didn’t survive. We’ve been trained through evolution to go along with the tribe because it’s unsafe to question anything and get cast out.
Survival of the fittest. Evolution does not value truth or mortality, so for example secret rapists are a highly successful adaptation regardless of the morality of the action. If evolution is a correct model of reality, this pesky religion and moral agency will diminish with time. True progress. Maybe we can start counting the years from the big bang instead of that Jesus event or w/e!
I agree. The support aspect is very strong. Can't go against it, unless you are lucky and/or skilled. Or very brave.
in one single word >> Indoctrinated
OP this is why people believe in religion, and it's nearly impossible to get them out of it, you can't reason someone out of something they weren't reasoned into in the first place
I find this a seemingly straight-forward point I've never gotten a religious person to acknowledge.
99.99999% of people follow the religion they do because their parents did. Not because it's true. That Christian, that Hindu, that Jew. It's just because they were told it was true at birth.
If their religion was actually the Truth, why would that be the case...?
because they don't see it that way, they have their own understanding of free will, religion sells itself as test ( for the most part ), if you pass the test ( temptation or whatever you wanna call it ) you're qualified to enter heaven, so in a way even if you're born christian or a Muslim you still going to get tested, so in their view it doesn't change anything, but from our perspective, it changes everything because we bet that if their parents didn't make them that way, they would never go that route on their own...
That's why we must address the root cause of all this, which is religion, in Islam for example "Prophet" Mohammed piss be upon him, said
“Every child is born in a state of fitrah, then his parents make him into a Jew or a Christian or a Magian.” (Agreed upon)
As you can see, Mohammed doesn't apply his own observation on his beliefs and because people glorify him, they will never dare to question his reasoning, which is also their own reasoning now..
You can tell a religious person to criticise everything and everyone, and they can, tell them to redirect their critism to their own belief, and suddenly they'll become intellectually handicapped
Islam used to be the forefront of scientific and mathematical discovery. Believing in god have nothing to do with science or math, it's superstition, something that cannot be proven or unproven, it's that irrational thought that make us human.
People of all religions have contributed to scientific growth.
The average religious person and the person discovering scientific/mathematical stuff are generally different tho.
Universal basic education has gained focus in many parts of the world, only relatively recently.
I think improved scientific temper would obviously clash with many mainstresm religions.
Presence of some supreme creator may not be proven or disproven, but I think the anti-evolution stuff and similar things in most mainstream religions would face more questions when scientific temper improves.
And I'm not saying that non-religious people are safe from similar stuff too. Just that it is easily spread and maintained when you have a community on it.
And religions can evolve with this (or die from declining membership), as long as the leaders don’t stick to the “These actually scientifically proven facts are lies sent by the Devil” line.
No, Islamic COUNTRIES did. They didn't achieve excellence in science because Islam benefitted science.
They achieved excellence in science compared to Christian countries in large part because their religious authority figures didn't stand in the way anywhere near as much. Not because religion helped.
Not true. They are polar opposites. That's why scientists are disproportionately atheist and agnostic: the evidence based mode of thinking employed in science doesn't mix with the superstitious and unquestioningly convinced thinking of religion without some SERIOUS cognitive dissonance.
No. That's not being human, that's being brainwashed and/or obedient to authority.
You're right that it's irrational and that irrationality is an inherent part of being human, but the SPECIFIC irrationality of religion is learned and enforced, NOT inherent.
Thank you, I think people often overlook how faith and scientific thought can be complimentary. In any case, for questions of religious/spiritual matters, people are basically just running with a hypothesis that works for them. As long as they're capable of being self-critical and aren't pushing their beliefs on people who aren't interested, then it seems fine to me.
Because belief is intrinsic to humanity even if we don't believe in religion.
I believe in a lot of human concepts, including kindness, altruism, democracy and humanism. They are all still effectively made up human ideas.
I also believe when I sit down that the chair below me really exists but I cannot truly trust my own senses 100% either. So effectively I "believe" what my sensory organs and brain interpretation tell me, but the reality is the brain and its interpretations can be wrong.
Look at the USA, the founders of the nation are often treated with a reverence akin to that of religious figures.
People have all kinds of delusions. People worship all kinds of weird things. Religion is just one of many.
Finally, someone like Ayn Rand shows that a human can have pretty reprehensible and hypocritical beliefs even if they are an atheist. She promoted bullshit "great men" theories of humanity and argued that selfishness could be used for good.
She also died penniless and on government benefits while spending her whole life preaching against things like government benefits.
People are deeply irrational even without religion.
As an atheist who is not anti-religion, I wholeheartedly agree. The religious do not have a monopoly on irrationality, or weaponizing ideology.
I see many atheists on forums proposing the idea that if we could only just get rid of religion, the world would be a harmonious and rational place. As if human beings wouldn't still be perfectly able to come up with new and interesting ways to rationalize conflict and division amongst themselves.
I like to say "Humans aren't rational creatures, humans are rationalizing creatures."
We can rationalize nearly anything and justify it, in our own minds.
Thank you for being honest.
Humans are emotional creatures. We can’t change that. Even when we’re being rational we’re still basing every decision we make on emotions. “I’ve researched this and I feel this is the right decision.”
I like this explanation most
We believe in those things because they're practices we can observe and measure. The real question is why do theists not have the same standard of evidence for theistic claims.
Your trust (or "faith") in the chair existing and supporting your weight is because of your experience with chairs in the past. I don't think many people would say they have "absolute certainty" the chair exists and would hold them.
If you had a history of hallucinating you might have a higher standard of evidence, but it's still there to be tested. The problem with religion is it seems like you need a standard of "none at all" to accept theistic claims.
"They do it too" doesn't really get us to an answer, just another "why" question. She believes her claims with little to no evidence, theists believe their claims with little to no evidence, but like...why?
Here are a few reasons people believe:
Meaning and Purpose: Religion can offer a framework for understanding the universe and our place in it. It can provide answers to big questions about life, death, and morality.
Community and Belonging: Religious communities can provide social support, a sense of belonging, and shared values. This can be especially important during difficult times.
Comfort and Hope: Religion can offer comfort in times of grief or hardship. It can also provide hope for the afterlife or a better future.
Tradition and Identity: Religion can be a core part of a person's cultural heritage or family identity. People may feel a connection to their ancestors or cultural background through their faith.
Ethics and Morality: Many religions provide a moral code that guides people's behavior. This can be helpful in making decisions about right and wrong.
I don't believe, but I can see why people stick with it and don't look beyond it. You can get all these things without religion, its just not something that's taught/passed down in the same way as religion is. Additionally, deconstructing is very difficult. You're raised to believe something to be real and you're expected to just drop it and step out of Plato's cave? You'd look like a madman to any friends/family who aren't willing and ready to step out and look around.
As a large language model, I cannot endorse any one religion
Come on, this list of reasons was written by an LLM
It makes people feel better, not in general but better than others, most religions are about "this is how I'm better then you heathen"
The one point I can really agree with is the meaning and purpose part. I’m not religious and the whole what happens after death part really fucks me up quite a bit. It’d be really damn nice if I could just go “I’ll go to Heaven” and be done
Personally I don't see what the afterlife has to do with your purpose or sense of meaning in this life. For me, I figure my purpose is whatever I find fulfilling in life while hopefully helping others do the same. Anything that comes after that is a bonus.
Part of the identity crises that comes with(out) religion is the ultimate question of purpose: why are we suffering, surely it has a reason? Some of us are content to accept that there is no purpose, and therefore we must define our own; others need a purpose greater than themselves and/or to have one defined for them, and look to religion for that purpose. There is no right answer, and the struggle of identity and purpose are well documented in religion, fiction, history, and philosophy.
Also, it can depend on certain other factors.
My partner and I had a difficult conversation recently about how we plan to handle her brother when her mother passes.
Her mother is obviously religious and raised him religiously Christian.
He is a sweet man with a severe developmental disability. Things literally take a very long time for him to learn. He still acts like a teen and he's pushing 40. That's not his fault, that's just life. We love him.
The thing is though...
We don't believe in religion, but we also think that when his mother finally passes, it would not be wise to try to turn him from Christianity.
He struggled and still struggles years later due to the passing of his father. The idea of being able to see his father in heaven is big to him.
At one point, he panicked because he was playing DOOM 2016 on his game console, and he asked my partner (his sister) if he was going to go to hell for playing it. She reminded him that the Doomslayer kills demons and loves bunnies and reminded him the themes of the game say demons are bad, even if the game itself is violent.
We don't think it's worth it to try to break his brain when he's over 40 and his mom finally passes. Hell, she's in good health, he could be over 50 when it happens. He has a learning disability and it would literally be unfair to him to try to force a change in belief on him at such a late stage with such a disability.
It's not worth it to wreck his mental health so we can feel better about being "truthful" with him. We're focusing on trying to relate healthy interpretations of Christianity to him.
Serious answer:
I can't speak for anyone else, but I believe in a religion because I've found it to be personally beneficial.
I was a pastor for many years and saw much of the best and worst religion had to offer. I haven't stepped foot inside a church since COVID broke out and don't know that I ever will again.
My personal beliefs are still a significant part of my life, but I understand why someone would ask the question that spawned this discussion.
You find it personally beneficial, but you haven't actually answered the question.
I think that does answer the question - for a lot of people, the reason they're religious is because they find it personally beneficial for one reason or another.
yup, religion has made me mentally stable so I guess it's beneficial to me at least.
I guess I'm putting emphasis on the word "believe" and you seem to be seeing religion as a way to find comfort. This is why I feel you are not actually answering the question that OP posed. Perhaps I'm taking the question too literally.
Adding more to this. The question is why do you believe in religion, not why you are religious. To me, there's a difference between the two of these.
There is a significant difference, but, in my limited experience, many people are religious, but don't actually believe, but they think they do believe. When the rubber hits the road you find it what a person actually thinks is true.
Think of your closest friend or family member. Do you "believe in" them?
I'm not religious at all. But in responding to your question OP: we don't have to understand why people believe. Religion just isn't for us, and that's fine. Other people find it has value, and that's fine too. The fact that religion has lasted this long with this many people is proof in itself that there's some value people get out of it. We don't have to get it to understand that.
All the comments here that explain religion solely as dumb or irrational are just as closed minded as the people they're criticising.
On point, additionally religion has also effectively associated itself with spirituality. It's also associated itself with caring for others, volunteering, community, togetherness and acceptance. Additionally it's a great place to network and organize communities. Even if belief has faded, tradition is usually important with that group of people.
It's only recently in the past century or so that serious spirituality in our culture has been able to detach itself from religion, sometimes forming new ones
Hard disagree. Religion has a measurable impact on people voting against the rights of minorities, and it deserves every bit of scrutiny it has coming its way.
It's not like Bigfoot or flat earth. This shit is having serious consequences for others, physically and mentally.
Religion itself? Or man using religious dogma to justify the uglier natures of their internal belief systems and cherry-picking religious quotes to shoehorn their false righteousness into moral discussion? Religion is a powerful tool and it can be used to drum up donations for an orphanage, or leveraged and wielded by people who aren't seeking to enlighten themselves at all apart from learning how to use religion to control people.
I agree with you. Using religion to manipulate people for political reasons is not really a religion problem. If you eradicate religion, there are many other levers to pull. In fact, manipulating religious groups these days also requires using these other weaknesses against people and then convincing them to ignore the conflict with their religious teachings.
Ahh yes, agreed. Like prosperity Jesus wanting you to be wealthy despite saying in the Bible "it's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven."
Or a year round favorite: "Love thy neighbor" (unless they're people we don't like, such as LGBT, immigrants, liberals etc. )
It's also a great path to getting people to do what you want. I was already an atheist when my father and I had a philosophical discussion regarding religion when I was an adolescent. He brought up this point early in the discussion. I only need to look around at all the bullshit laws getting passed that religious zealots vote for against their own interest to confirm that this is true.
The Southern Baptist Church just had their annual conference and decided that their position on Invitro Fertilization is against the procedure. How does that help anyone? It doesn't.
It is just as easy to point to the ideas of the extreme members of the “new atheist” movement as evidence that they are a dangerous cult.
Using the Southern Baptist Church as your example of religion is not a very good argument. Implying that atheists are somehow more rational as a group is not really a great argument either.
By the way, I am an atheist. I do no consider my beliefs to be unassailable scientific conclusions though. I recognize that many of my beliefs and preferences lack the robust rational foundation I would like them to. I doubt I am the pinnacle of morality or ethics ( more than doubt - but I am not looking to trash my own reputation here ).
Voting against your own interests or scapegoating others for what you see as damage against yourself or even just plain old hate do not require religion. Humans have lots of ways at arriving at those and being manipulated into them.
For the same reasons they always have.
The year has little to do with it. The only things we've really undeniably progressed in over the past century are scientific knowledge and the level of technology. Existential philosophy hasn't exactly made breakthroughs recently, to my knowledge.
Each person still needs to find their own answer to the fundamental questions of "why am I here" and "wtf is death and how do I deal with it".
Our mechanical, scientific understanding of reality provides fairly depressing answers to these questions. Religion? Sunshine and roses.
Also, on a more practical factor: childhood indoctrination and cultural inertia. Most people are raised in religion and they find it "good enough", so religion continues.
I find it more depressing that there is a God that decides what is good and what isn't and gives us "free will" just so He can torture us for eternity if we dont do what He wants... kinda fucked up ngl
Fortunately I don't need any more reasons to live than enjoying my day to day, being with the people I love, doing my little projects etc.
Oh, continuing down that line of thinking leads to far worse then "kinda fucked up." If the judeo christian deity exists and is accurately described by their books than it is a total monster not worthy of praise or devotion...
What I understand about the judeo christian god is that they are believed to have created everything that has ever been or will ever be. They have total knowledge of everything past present and future, and they "knew me" prior to them creating me, knew what kind of person I would be, and knew without doubt that I wouldn't believe in or worship them... so they created me with full knowledge that I'll spend eternity being tortured in hell. What kind of benevolent deity brings a creature into existence just so they can be tortured? If that's not full blown fucked up, then I don't know what is.
You've basically touched on one of the core logical issues at play in Abrahamic religions (and others). God is omnipotent and omniscient, or people have free will. It can't be both.
Here is a nice visualisation of the logical paradox:
In some religions walking away from the church means being excluded from family, social, and business contacts. So cutting ties with everyone you know basically.
So better start believing in some magic men.
You can just like, say you do. I think a lot of people who check “Christian” in the US have little to no involvement in it beyond saying “thank God” occasionally.
I remember reading a story in my Spanish lit class about a guy who wasn’t attending church, and his mother was freaking out, so the family priest went to talk to him. And the priest was like, “I totally get it. After all the evil I’ve seen I don’t really believe either. But I continue in this because it is my life, and I can provide comfort to people. Consider attending because you love your mother and it will help her.”
In 2024 life is hard and you can't do anything about it in most cases. Religion gives you an excuse for why it must be so, so that you can keep grinding away.
You're definitely not gullible right?
Not religious either.
Indoctrination.
This is a pretty broad question, it really depends on what you mean by "believe in religion":
Believe that a particular holy book is literal, historical truth.
Believe in the moral teachings of a particular holy book and follow its practices.
Believe in the existence of a universal higher consciousness (God)
1 is a vocal minority, and the reasons have been sufficiently explained elsewhere in this thread.
2 is much more common, and can derive from a number of reasons. Cultural identity generally determines which holy book (and interpretation thereof) you follow, but the attraction to moral framework is deeper than cultural identity. Having a set of guidelines to inform moral behavior, and a method of alignment and focus (prayer) is very valuable.
3 is a metaphysical consideration, and pops up even in 2024 because consciousness is still a mysterious phenomenon. Every explanation leads to roughly the same conclusion: if consciousness is an emergent property of complex interconnected systems, then it stands to reason that the most complex interconnected system (the universe) is more likely than not to be conscious; if consciousness is some external force that complex systems can "tune into" like a radio, then it stands to reason that "consciousness" permeates the universe; if consciousness is something else which defies scientific description, then it stands to reason that there exists some agency to dictate the rules.
Those are, broadly, the rational explanations of consciousness of which I'm aware, and they all imply a universal consciousness of one variety or another. If you can think of another I'd love to consider it.
If you meant something else by "believe in religion", let me know.
Another big reason is reason number 4
I've met a not so inconsequential amount of people in my life that when pressed admitted, they don't believe in god, don't believe in the moral teachings, but attend a place of worship because they think there is no replacement for the interwoven community and cultural connection their place of worship provides. Many people simply like the community connection of their root culture. This is especially true in minority groups (black church, synagogue).
This is me and my family right now. Two days ago we had lunch with our pastor to discuss the design of the church's nursery and I came out as atheist and my wife came out as Buddhist. The pastor didn't challenge us on any of that and we ended talking about what drew us to social justice causes. We believe in each other and that is enough.
That's another big reason to practice for sure, but I think it's a stretch to call that belief.
None of the things by themselves fully justify "belief" in a religion yet many people claim they are without a true belief in the entire system. It's the problem with such a vague question. By a narrower definition very few people attending a place of worship are true believers. Someone can believe in god, but not really believe in the rules, and still say they are "religious". Someone can believe in the rules, but not god, and say the same. I think if you are practicing the religion to some extent then you have a right to call yourself religious if that's how you view yourself regardless of your true beliefs on god, rules, etc. Cultural impact matters more than we give it credit for.
It's very rare that you find anyone on Lemmy/Reddit that actually takes more than eight seconds to critically think about the significance of "religion," and not just immediately monkey brain into "religion is for idiots." Alas, I hoped that this particular group think would've stayed behind.
A belief is not a religion, and a religion is not a belief. Any one person can be varying degrees of "religious," and any one person can hold varying levels of belief in a higher power.
I don't have much else to add because your comment was pretty well thought-out.
This 👉🏼 #3 👆🏼
They are raised with it and old habits die hard.
The fact that some people start as atheists and later become religious demonstrates there has to be more reasons than just that.
You are correct. However, relatively there are a tiny amount of them and their reasons are not good reasons.
Almost always, they are in a vulnerable state and at that time have also been exposed to some kind of religious indoctrination specifically tailored to take advantage of that.
It's easy to see this from the perspective of brainwashing techniques used by cults. Religion just has more developed techniques for longevity.
We all do. It takes effort to instill beliefs and usually greater effort to change them. Education is the most common inoculation.
Your understanding of their reasoning comes from a fundamental assumption that your choice is the correct choice for every person. They willingly made the wrong decision, therefore they must have been manipulated into doing so.
Many people do just become religious without outside influence. On a large scale, every society will create its own version of religion without fail. Clearly, they have something to gain psychologically by doing so.
While religious indoctrination obviously exists and obviously is a problem, it doesn't discount the actual benefits that religion seems to have, and by extension the reasoning with which some people become religious.
When I said "start", it was in reference to the process of changing your religious identity, not your life as a whole.
Never personally met an atheist that had found religion or heard about one, other than in American evangelical stories, but I've met a few non-religions people who have later in life found religion. Although I live in a quite atheaistic country, so there is a lack of peer pressure or need to talk about such things.
I had a friend whose dad was a pastor at a decently sized church. I never believed in religion and he was cool because he would actually listen to what I said rather than plugging his ears and yelling. (you know what I mean). I went to his church one Sunday to humor him and it was Ok. His dad was relating current events to the bible and it wasn't total horseshit.... UNTIL, they passed the plate thing around for donations. "Give your money to GOD" is what was said. I asked my friend what the hell does god need my money for? He made the earth in seven days, he can make his own damn money. My friend said the money goes to the church to put on events for the children and feeding the needy and honestly, good things. I said ok, then tell me to donate my money to the church to support this instead of god.
Many years later he has his own church and when they pass the plate around, he says donate to the church and explains where the money goes. I call it a little victory. Religion is still a load of crap though.
You're very lucky to have such friends.
Isn't the firey interpretation popularized by Dante's Inferno?
Dante's Inferno went into detail that was not biblical, but there's enough in the bible that writing it off completely is cherry picking.
"They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
Like it or not, people who went to prayer house or religious gatherings socialise more than people who stay indoor and only interact with limited amount of people. Assuming there's no fishy business going on with that particular chapter, they tend to be happier considering the fact human are social animal and the feeling of loneliness due to lack of human to human interaction is the build-in alarm system to warn us against solitude. It's this reason religion is so success because it's enforce togetherness and make you feels like you're part of something.
If we're going into a utopian world where human doesn't need to work anymore and social security is guaranteed, religious will be something even bigger than today.
Edit: forgot to mentioned, am atheist and give no shit to skyman, but somehow on the internet atheist can't have opinion that's not shitting on people with faith.
Nah, I like my community without the side of eternal suffering that so many religions like to threaten you with for varioua reasons.
I'd put my money on huge adoption of D&D in the utopian future before I put it on religion.
I too don't like my community centered around religion, but everywhere i look, religion tend to be the biggest community gathering around the world.
While this statement is true, its also true even if you're not religious. I was not raised religious at all but always got together with family/cousins/friends nearly every weekend.
Kinda. This study [0] of 3,942 19-year-old in Sweden put it best:
So while religious upbringing can force people to socialize, that doesn't mean the lack of religiosity will have a negative impact as the lack of religion does not dictate that you will not congregate/gather with peers/friends/family and feel the same level of "belonging" to a group - even if its not a well defined group.
I'd say this claim is unfounded. Why must we turn to religion? There are clubs, groups, meetups, friends, events and niches of never ending categories that easily fulfill the need of "belonging" to a group - it's actually one thing humans are really good at - forming "in" and "out" groups.
Source: [0] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/275143707_Faith_or_Social_Foci_Happiness_Religion_and_Social_Networks_in_Sweden
Yes, i do agree on all the thing you said, what i'm saying is it's not mutually exclusive. Religious people can and will go to religious meetup and all the other non-religious gathering too. I know that because i have some friend that do both. It's not the case of black and white, this or that, do and don't.
The issue i have with OP's question and a lot of atheist is they tend to put religious people as a one dimension entity and think highly of themselves because they "aren't like that", that irrationality is what they accuse religious people have. It's that sort of tribalism that cause a lot of conflict, and i fear tribalism more than i fear religion.
We don't need religion, we did at one time. When we didn't know why or how people got sick, why sometimes crops would be plentiful and other times famine or why the ground shook sometimes or even just figuring out morals
But we know those things now and when we encounter something we don't we have the knowledge and tools to figure out what's up.
We don't need churches for a common social place, we have parks, libraries, community centers and community wide events to invest in. We can socialize and learn other cultures around the world in an instant. We don't just have random villages and tiny cities any more, we have large and diverse cities so we everyone can have a little of everything they're interested in.
At this point, all religion does is serve as yet another thing to divide us.
Based on what evidence lmao
Classic.
It is very difficult to accept mortality if you don't believe in an afterlife. Religion brings comfort, and comfort improves mental health (at the cost of some delusion).
Not really. Altruism is ultimately self-serving whether an afterlife exists or not. People generally don't want to spend their life being wronged by others or have their life taken altogether, so we have a pretty good incentive to not do those things.
I'm not sure how that relates to what I said. Morality ≠ mortality.
Ooooh I 100% read "morality" lol, my bad
All good. Yeah I think morality is not really something religion helps with.
Ignoring the inherit assumption that religion is de facto an issue or backwards, and ignoring the fallacy that "progress" is co-liniar with the passage of time, logic is not in of itself a perfect humanistic process of thought, rather it has been developed by humans over the millennia.
There is great comfort in the process of growing into and exploring one's faith. Growing up in a theologically liberal Christian church, I was invited to find ways to meld the kingdom of God and the kingdom of man is such a way that I find purpose and vocation within my life. Religion also offers a place for community among people committed to a mission, be it good or bad. These communities preserve and honor cultural traditions, again, the good and the bad. These are just a few reasons I think people are now, and will remain well into the future, religious.
I definitely get the sense of community aspect of religion.
Indoctrination at a young age.
It's a good coping mechanism.
The Opium of the Masses
This and Parents
It's really a shitty coping mechanism.
The social aspect might be underappreciated. My guess is people are mainly introduced by family and friends and it becomes a big part of their identity. It becomes difficult to separate the individual elements.
You have a cult following around celebrities and you are surprised by religion which is older than you?
The difference is we have evidence that celebrities exist
Gods are literally just a psychological comfort blanket to explain the unexplainable. Most religious people don’t put that much thought into what they believe, challenging concepts are just tucked nicely away in the “Gods will” box and they move on. I think everyone copes with those brain shattering concepts in their own creative way or risk getting buried alive in anxiety.
Indoctrination and ignorance, notice how a big chunk of its members are old people. Younger people are less interested, thankfully. Also, for some people, it is a social club.
Weirdly I know quite a few people who converted to being religious as adults. As children, they weren't raised with any particular religion.
I think people just want something to do and some encouraging people around them.
More comforting than the alternative. Its one reason why when material conditions worsen people faith goes up.
Because the lowest common denominator is much MUCH lower than you think it is.
This means it's easy to indoctrinate and easy to maintain that for a massive number of people.
Scientific illiteracy is extremely high, and actual "6th grade reading comprehension" is the highest level of literacy for > 50% of a country like the U.S. and ~20% are low literacy or actually illiterate.
This means that half of everyone in the U.S. can read and understand what they read at or below a 6th grade level. This isn't "reading big words", it's "tell us about what you read", "what is the relationship between x & y" type questions.
This comment for example, up to this point only, would be difficult to understand & comprehend for > 50% of people in the U.S. (it demands an 11th grade reading comprehension). And may be misread, misunderstood, or not understood at all.
People are driven to religions to cults and alt conspiracy theories when they don't understand how the world works around them. They latch onto extremely simple often misleading or incorrect ideas of how the world works because they can understand it and it "makes sense" within their sphere of ignorance (we all have one, this isn't meant to be a disparaging term).
This means that the problem is that humans are just not smart enough to escape religion yet. It's the simplest answer, and it appears to be correct.
Add to that the fact that there are people who use this fact, and try and control people using religion for personal gain.
I agree. At the root of it, people want to feel safe. This is a fundamental need. Religion does this for them because they don’t need to make decisions and they’re promised that if they follow it they will indeed be kept safe. Also spiritual bypass is awesome.
Having been raised in a religious household and having escaped it later in life to become an engineer/science nerd, while being ostracized by my, incredibly, incredibly disappointing parents because they refuse to learn new things or acknowledge scientific studies that conflict with their religious views:
This answer is unequivocally, absolutely, a 100% correct take on humanity and their need for the "simplistic" and incorrect answers religion gives about the world around them.
It's like asking why people smoke.
Is it bad for you? Yes.
Is it a burden on society? Yes.
Is it addictive and does it make you feel good? For some, yes.
I'm an effort to get you an answer that isn't dismissive:
Youth indoctrination, social conformity, and cultural isolation. If your parents, friends, and most of your community tells you something is true, you are unlikely to challenge it for a variety of reasons including trust (most of what they've taught you works for your daily life), tribal identity, etc
People naturally fear death, and one coping strategy for the existential fear of death is to convince yourself that the death of your body is not the end of your existence. Science does not provide a pathway to this coping strategy so people will accept or create belief systems that quell that fear, even in the face of contradictory evidence. Relieving the pressure of that fear is a strong motivator.
Release of responsibility. When there is no higher power to dictate moral absolutes, we are left feeling responsible for the complex decisions around what is or isn't the appropriate course of action. And that shit is complicated and often anxiety inducing. Many people find comfort in offloading that work to a third party.
The alternative is absolutely unfathomable. Like I am an atheist and the fact we exist in any capacity is insane. Where did everything come from? Where will it go? People believe in religion because it's easier.
When I have an existential crisis over it I sometimes wish I was religious.
I feel the same way when I think about how when ever you get a whole bunch bunch of stuff together in one spot, it frickin warps time and space and that's why I'm standing and not floating.
I, for real, want to know if there are any religious/spiritual people here commenting because yikes. I think a lot of people also interpreted your question to be about organized religion, and specifically christianity of the US variety. Please seek out other religious thoughts - I've found much Jewish thought on religion to be of interest. For myself, I'm not christian and not Jewish.
I'm religious because growing up, I adopted the values of the religion I was taught - values of kindness, openness, and inclusion. It's as core a part of my being as my ways of cooking or socializing. To not be religious would feel like hiding parts of myself.
The routine of following the practices, as well as religion/spirituality being able to help us face the unknown we still have in our lives. It can provide internal strength and belief in our ability. I also find the routine a way to connect to my family, my culture, and to my day-to-day. My religious time is more a time of internal reflection on my own actions and if they align with my values. Do folks without a routine religious/spiritual practice do the same?
The community aspect some touched on is huge. I read a book, Palaces for the People, where it mentioned that those with strong social connections fare better in times of crisis. While there are institutions that are getting to the same influence of religious institutions, they are still far less impactful.
I guess this is all less a belief and more why do people still engage with religion. But why do we believe, what is the act of believing? I don't have to believe that the sun will rise every morning, but, I do still believe it will rise every morning. Belief is a whole area of study alone I'm sure.
It seems like you're equating being religious with everything except accepting theistic claims. You can have everything you've mentioned without religion. What OP is asking is why do people accept theistic claims despite there being little to no evidence for them?
You believe it'll rise because you have more than thousands of instances of this happening at the same time every day. You didn't just decide to believe it, you believe it because you found good reasons to believe it.
Try deciding to believe you're a levitating purple dinosaur. I can't, can you?
One popular answer is that sometimes people just experience things that they find scientific answers to not be able to answer adequately. We as a species are still far from knowing everything.
aka "God of the Gaps"
Humans psyche is a meaning inference recursive engine, semiotically I mean, following Charles Sanders Peirce's Theory of Signs, it generates meaning and thus needs a story to explain it, or simply to tell itself.
The story doesn't need to hold sound logic or any objectivity true to reality, it only needs to convey the meaning that it generated so that the mind can believe it more than questioning its validity.
Long story short, humans really likes being told and believing stories, and often they are the ones telling the story right to themselves.
Cause a lot of people care more about feeling comfortable than feeling statistically probable.
This is likely not the best place to get answers for this question.
I like how all these answers involving science fail to realize that the scientific method was used exclusively by many scholars and students who had no historical evidence of giving up their religion.
Empirical evidence is as old as humans, and afaik the modern scientific method has been in use since the Islamic golden age if not older.
The key here is that many of these people did not consider religion an empirical issue but a philosophical and ethical one. Particularly with the monotheistic religions, this would make sense because you can easily argue that it would be impractical to test for the existence of God.
I think a better question would be why do people believe in their respective religion if it contains a glaring contradiction(s).
I think there's something that always seems to get left out of these conversations and that's that "when I practice my religion, I feel something that I don't feel otherwise" is frequently a true statement for the religious.
I've often heard self-described atheists say that, often when conversing/debating with religious folks about why they believe, the conversation comes to a point where the religious person will say "I've just had a personal experience" and the atheist, unable to relate to that, really has no way to advance the conversation beyond that.
Were I opposite some fundamentalist Christian or something in such a situation, my response would be "yeah, me too! That's totally normal."
I think the beligerantly nonreligious either can't relate to religious experiences or don't want to admit to having had them for fear of embarassment or maybe rhetorical concessions. And the religious typically haven't had such experiences outside the context of their religious practices, or if they have they still attribute it to their religious beliefs, and so take it as proof of their beliefs.
And these religious experiences are very real and very normal. Probably some people are more prone to such experiences than others. But despite how the religious tend to interpret them they have little to no relationship to one's beliefs. One can have experiences of anatta ("no-self" in Theravada Buddhism) or satori (sudden, typically-temporary, enlightenment in Japanese Zen Buddhism) or recollection (a term from Christian mysticism) or kavana (Jewish mysticism) or whatever without accepting any particular belief system. There are secularized mindfulness and meditation practices that can increase one's chances and frequency of experiencing these states.
But, unfortunately, the history of these experiences has been one of large religious organizations claiming and mostly exercising a monopoly on such experiences.
These experiences feel very deep and profound and can be a very positive (or negative!) thing, even affecting the overall course of one's life. And they can be kindof addictive in a good way.
All that to say that I think any conversation about why people believe in religions today is incomplete without taking into account that for many people, their religion is their means of connection with some extremely profound and beautiful experiences. Though people only accept beliefs along with those experiences because they don't know these experiences aren't actually exclusive to any one religion or any set of beliefs. And those experiences are 100% real and tangible to them. (Whether they correspond to anything real in consensus reality is a whole other conversation, but the experiences themselves are a normal human phenomenon like orgasm or schadenfreude.)
Just some followup thoughts:
Thanks, I had the same hunch but I didn't yet put into proper words and ideas.
Do you think, should we extrapolate those experiences to something beyond or just accept it as part of human nature?
There's a western meditation guy named "Daniel Ingram" who I have a certain amount of respect for. He readily answers questions about the risks and benefits of meditation-related things as well as the subjective experience of them. But any time he is asked about the "real world" (like, the metaphysical implications of these experiences), he responds that he's "a pragmatist" and won't speculate about the nature of reality or the existence/nonexistence of entities or powers.
(That said, there is one and only one story he tells that seems to have made him believe certain supernatural claims about the real world. He was "practicing magic" and drew an amber pentagram in the air and someone who hadn't been present at the time later walked into the room and said "you just drew an amber pentagram in the air right here." Or at least that's roughly how he tells the story. And he does seem to believe there's something to that beyond the natural.)
I'm not quite the purist he is. I don't think it's necessary to straight up refuse to believe anything about the real world or the nature of reality. And I don't think that there's nothing that can/should be gleaned about metaphysics from subjective ("religious") experiences. (My experiences with contemplative practices has definitely changed my mind about some metaphysical things. The nature of conscious and of reality, the existence of capital-G-"God" (though the answer I find most compelling now definitely isn't "yes" or "no"), etc.)
But it's also important to keep it in perspective. Some of these experiences can feel like the most important thing every to happen to anyone. (That's probably how many/most religions start, honestly. Someone has a mind-blowing experience and tells everybody about it and everybody else grossly misinterprets it because these experiences are ineffable -- can't be put into words -- and before you know it you have the crusades and witch burnings and abstinance-only sex ed.) But a contemplative practice, done well, will tell you not to hold too closely to, well, anything really (potentially "except god"). Coming to some belief and holding it as the most important thing ever or basing your whole personality on it is absolutely problematic.
My advice is to hold any beliefs you come to from a religious experience (and any other beliefs you have for that matter) "loosely". And I think this is helped by not restricting yourself to one religious system. Borrow from both western and eastern religious traditions. Monotheistic, pantheistic, pagan, etc. Indigenous spiritual practices. Even left-hand-path stuff. The more you do that, the better you drive home to your reptilian brain the point that nobody has a monopoly on religious experience and often those experiences even contradict each other.
I guess one other thing to mention is that adpting a particular set of religious beliefs can potentially be a boon to one's contemplative practice. But for the reasons above, it can be dangerous.
Thank you for taking the time to write this out, I probably would've been busy for a couple of hours trying to formulate my fairly similar take!
Maybe to add another aspect for - I think that the sheer ability of humans to have religious experiences in all denominations, which are often described as feelings of connectedness, does not necessarily mean that there is a higher being or reality "out there" that is being connected to in those moments.
But it does mean that our brains have religious experience as an in-built function (which, as you described, has been needlessly enshrined in religious institutions), which might mean that being able to have these experiences is an important part of being able to survive, or maybe even to thrive, as a human being, which also means as a community.
And that's a take that I couldn't have put as well as you did, and I wholeheartedly agree with.
I think whatever cognitive faculties separate us from "the animals" (or at least some animals) comes at a cost. Most animals live very in the moment. We're largely the only creatures that have panic attacks because of some imagined future event, and we worry constantly. The default mode network and the internal monologue let us plan for the future, but also makes us worry for the future, which is definitely maladaptive.
Religious experiences let us greatly mitigate that by showing us, even if only temporarily (and sometimes people can achieve permanence in this), by suspending the DMN and internal monologue.
Suspending worry for the future might be a plausible function for religious experience as an evolved feature of the human mind, yes.
I would also point towards the biological fact that while the existence of a higher being, consciousness or reality, is still ineffable, even after having had an experience that felt like there might be one, there is also an empirically true, measurable interconnectedness for humans that can be tapped into.
We live, and have evolved, in and through ecosystems that highly depend on interconnected species and processes that are so complex and intricate that we are still working on fully grasping them, and still discovering new connections (unfortunately, it's becoming more and more because we have disrupted the connections by environmental damage, and the ecosystems start to fail due to that, making the connection obvious only after it ceased to exist). Connection between humans in the form of love in its many forms is also the ultimate glue that keeps societies together, and if that capacity diminishes due to circumstances, bad things tend to happen.
The myriad of connections we need to live, and to thrive and to feel like we are whole - all of this fully seen and experienced in their abstracted totality could in my eyes be one of the bases for religious experience.
And if that is true, it gives also another function - then, religious experience is the anchor and has a rebalancing function that makes sure that we don't get lost in our own heads and human constructs, and keeps reminding us that we are part of the ecosystem, too, and keeps us from using it in a self-destructive manner. There are several deeply spiritual, nature-connected societies that only became so after a local environmental crisis caused by themselves. Tapping into the interconnectedness through religious experience has helped them find another, arguably better way.
(Of course, it doesn't seem to be a hard, global fail-safe in human history, given the current state of the world, so I don't know how direct this function would be.)
I honestly think it’s a coping mechanism that is hard wired into us.
Most if not all ancient civilizations independently had some sort of belief in a higher power.
It’s a way to deal with the death of a loved one and your own mortality.
Alternative ways of explaining the world have been around for like a century and a half, and religious conversion is slow.
Why we did religion in the first place instead of just "I dunno where stuff came from or why" is a much more interesting question IMO.
I don't find it surprising given that the vast majority of people don't research the claims that other people make. For example, during the GameStop short squeeze, people came to the conclusion that corruption or collusion was at play, when in reality it wasn't for the most part.
People would rather listen to a guy who says something confidently than a guy who says "I don't know." The former gets to spread their word, and the latter gets ignored.
Yeah, we seem to just be gullible on average, when it comes to certain things.
I believe it started with a sense of security. Don't worry, there's a reason and someone is in control of this shit show. Feels better than we're on this crazy freight train called life that is almost completely out of control, no one knows where we're going, no one knows how we're going to get there, and we basically have no control over any of it.
Oh someone is in control don't worry about that!
That's just the Catholics. We're talking about all religions.
If this is referring to Buddhism, I believe that's considered a philosophy and not a religion. I think you need a god for it to be a religion.
Or both, idk it's all up for interpretation? Just looked it up and "they" can't agree. 🤷♂️
There's a degree of just feeling viscerally like the supernatural is around us, too. Not everyone has that, but some people certainly do. Then yeah, we also want to answers the big questions in a satisfying, even comforting way. Particularly modern monotheism has a deep component of offering a way the world is fair, actually, despite all appearances.
It looks like religion is a thing that started with modern humans, just based on archeological finds, but I don't know why or if it was adaptive. Some scholars will talk about the beginning of religious finds as a beginning of abstract thought, but it seems to me that even a damn dog can make a creative guess about how the world works, so that's not it.
...it can?
In my view, there are two components to “religion”.
1 - it typically starts with an attempt to explain why and how things are
2 - it becomes a human administration - this becomes more about politics than “religion”
Most of the problems with religion stem from the second part. I see the politics as the far bigger problem there. So people that want to create political movements around “science” are absolutely no better in my view.
If you read the question being asked in this thread critically, do you find it a scientific question? A political one?
So what you're saying is that here in 2024 we've got it all figured out?
*Note that: 2024, everything figured out.
“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” -Shakespeare
There's physics. And there's metaphysics. One does not come to Faith the same way one produces a hypothesis.
I disagree with your last line. A hypothesis is a great analogy for faith. It’s a belief that something is true. Science involves testing the hypothesis, just as faith can be tested.
It’s important to remember that science, by definition, does not prove anything either. There are only supported and unsupported theories.
We've got way more figured out than what religious people think.
Faith is the rejection of the possibility of producing a hypothesis.
you can be spiritual and religious without believing in structured religion like the church.
i'm wiccan and spiritual and it means a great deal to me.
Sure you can, why though?
Fear of the unknowable
Nothing is unknowable. It's just unknowable for now.
Fear of the unforknowable.
Yep. The issue is the answers found
I think that for most people it's nothing more than a social club. I have always been skeptical ever since hearing absurd stories about arks and being eaten by whales, but every once in a while (especially after sobering up) I went into various churches to see if I might have been missing out on something. Invariably I just found a social club of people just looking for excuses to feel better about themselves. Anything good that happens is a direct blessing from a doting god; anything bad is always the devil....personal responsibility is never part of the answer. Many are just uneducated and dont know how to think; they accept whatever Grandpa says as truth without any consideration, and this extends to pastors. I am atheist; my wife is a devout believer...but more and more she sees something horrible happen and can't deny it when I point out that religion did that. She still has her higher power but is starting to see the brainrot and brainwashing in her friends and family and can't understand why they do what they do while calling themselves 'christians'. It's not faith; it's just social self-service.
Objective reality doesn't matter to you if you close your eyes, cover your ears and insist on living in a fantasy world.
Let's put it this way, if I went around basing my entire understanding of reality on Greek gods, people would rightly think I was fucking nuts.
Do it with the bible though...
Or Islam, Judaism, Hinduism or any other major religion.
But no, suddenly I am the maniac for believing that – in reality – we are pink elephants, hopping on the moon and imagining life as we believe it to be true. No one can prove I am wrong. But uh oh, sky grandpa mad.
(/s I don't believe anything. Just making a sarcastic point.)
I'd say it's partly to find some comfort with life's many uncertainties, and one of several ways to achieve a sense of purpose when struggling for some.
Religion dissolves uncertainty. Why does….? Because the sky man said so. How does….? Because the sky man made it that way. What should I do with my life and how should I live it? Here’s a book written by the sky man and it has all the answers. No more thinking… I suppose it’s probably of great comfort to many.
Because (Christian) "Faith" is a unique, arguably delusional, cyclical belief system based on feelings. It's similar to the anti-vaccine mentality of "that's just your opinion" when it's not. The biggest difference being that there is no proving or disproving the existence of God.
And Faith is built on this self-referential system of "you gotta have Faith in God because God is real and God is good and strong Faith will help you continue believing in God when you are otherwise challenged, and weak Faith is a sign that you are straying from God and you should strengthen your Faith by believing in God harder because God is real and God is good..."
I used to be more religious and also thought "believe in whatever you want to believe in as long as you don't be a dick about it," but that's really been changing a lot lately.
Christianity has fallen so far and so many self-diagnosed Christians are just the worst type of people that I just couldn't relate to them anymore and felt the need to distance myself.
There have probably been (speculation because I don't feel like looking up details right now) more deaths in the name of Christianity and the Christian God than any other religion and that continues to this day.
I contribute modern day deaths from pregnancy complications deprived of needed health care, general lack of other health care for low income families, LGBTQIA2A+ suicides or other deaths, and more to "traditional Christian values".
Christian Nationalists can go fuck themselves and rot in their own hell they hate so much.
Because they keep having experiences they can’t or have no interest in explaining.
The existence of one or more gods can't be conclusively proven or disproven. So it makes sense to me that some people believe in it and others don't.
The funny thing is that people believe very specific things about gods, like that there's only one, or that they're nice or at least have similar values to us.
Or give a shit at All about you ...that one's hilarious.
Vast incalculable cosmos to rule but God gives a shit about an ant? Ok buddy. U just want my $10 for this week's plate
Or literally look like a specifically male human. What he does with those two legs when he already exists everywhere, nobody knows. It's not just the Abrahamic religions either, all the myths of the world have a bit of anthropocentrism to them. That was excusable when we had no better ideas.
My favorite interpretation of that was in Mage: The Ascension. Man being "in God's image" wasn't morphological, it was in man's ability to reshape reality to his whims.
On the subject of fiction, I was thinking about H.P Lovecraft when I wrote this. His whole thing was making a mythology that's not anthropocentric, and incorporates that character of vast incomprehensibility that our modern science has.
Dear (my) god, you folks are irrational. If someone acts a certain way, judge them for it! But judging anyone with faith just because you don't believe in that!? I can't prove God exists any more than you can prove they don't. If a religious person acts kind, fair, and rational, you shouldn't have anything against them, should you? But this post isn't about American right-wingers, or extremist Islamic Muslims, is it? It's about anyone who has any faith at all, just because you don't believe the same thing. Caring Christians literally building homes for people internationally, Sikhs feeding anyone, no matter their beliefs...
I know I'm going to get downvoted for this, but that's literally small-minded.
It’s a post asking why people believe in religion. People who don’t believe in religion or spirituality really have no reason to comment other than to condemn. The arrogance of atheists on Lemmy is very disappointing.
Disappointing, but not surprising.
What would you think of someone who goes door to door trying to convince you a blubbery clown rules the universe from planet zebulon?
Is that a normal person just doing normal person things?
For the non-religious, there is no difference between the person above and a relgious believer.
I think it's reasonable to ask why people still hold unfounded beliefs with the greater interconnectedness of the world making it pretty plain that not all these religions can be divinely inspired truth, so many of them are necessarily imaginary.
Man believes in stories. Such as religion, or money, or companies.
Ref. Yuval Noah Harari.
It’s useful to do so. It gives a person meaning and purpose in life.
Because we are convinced it is true.
The vast majority of people believe whatever the fuck they're told to believe.
I listened to a great podcast on the subject last week which was super helpful, https://pjvogt.substack.com/p/what-does-it-feel-like-to-believe.
For me, I just do. It's just who I am and what I feel. I don't really talk about it outside of my church friends, but I just believe. I don't think the Bible is terribly accurate and regard it much as I do Arabian Nights, a book of fantastic stories based loosely on events. I also think it has much to offer in teaching you how to treat others and live your life as a good person, and that's what I take away from it. I find Jesus honestly a touch creepy, but I never stop believing in a higher power of sorts.
Also I honestly have made the best friends I've ever made in my church life. Horrible homophobic Christians aside, there's some really excellent people who genuinely love you and do good things to meet there.
Search Engine is a great podcast and that was a great interview. For me it didn't really answer the question though, but I guess the answer is very individual.
It is a great podcast. I liked his answers but my perspective is different, that's ok.
We've proved the popular religions wrong definitively, but the truth's turned out to be unbearably horrifying for most people.
Because they did in 2023
When you're brainwashed from birth, it's difficult to recognize you've been brainwashed.
Religion is primarily a social phenomenon, so as long as people want to belong to a larger group then there will always be people willing to believe whatever non-falsifiable truths they need to in order to belong to one.
I mean... In my life I've gone from a (naive child that took my parents words for fact) theist, to agnostic atheist, all the way to whatever the fuck I am now. It's all a matter of perspective.
You go deep enough into metaphysics you can trip yourself the fuck out.
If anyone wants to humor me, check out this seemingly innocuous video about a comic book villain. Let's debate some metaphysics!
Our tendency to perceive agency in ambiguous situations sheds light on the origins of cognitive biases like religion. Our minds, shaped by eons of natural selection, are finely tuned to err on the side of caution. Think of a group of ancient hunters traversing the savanna. A rustle in the tall grass could be merely the wind, or it could be a lurking predator. Those who instinctively assume the worst and flee are more likely to survive than those who dismiss the sound and remain vulnerable.
Over time, this survival advantage has led to the evolution of cognitive models that favor the perception of agency, even when there is none. We are prone to seeing patterns, faces, and intentions in random events because the cost of mistakenly attributing agency is far less than the cost of failing to detect a real threat. This explains why we might see a face in the clouds or feel a presence in a dark room. Religion is a direct byproduct of this phenomenon.
Furthermore, it's important to keep in mind that every contemporary belief system stems from an uninterrupted chain of development, tracing back to the earliest human societies. This implies that every ideology has enjoyed a measure of success, having endured the test of time. This makes it difficult to definitively assert that one set of beliefs is fundamentally "more correct" than another, as truth is often subjective and dependent on context. After all, the effectiveness of a belief system in enabling a culture to thrive and grow is perhaps the most relevant measure of its "truthfulness."
If somebody grows up in a religious environment, then religion becomes central to their world model. It's not an isolated concept, it's an integral part of the tapestry of their mind. Our brains, like all physical systems, operate within the constraints of energy efficiency. Assimilating a new idea requires mental effort, as it necessitates restructuring our existing cognitive framework to accommodate the newcomer. This, in turn, translates to expending energy to rebalance the connections within the neural networks of our brain. If a novel concept clashes significantly with our established beliefs, the energetic cost of integration can be substantial. Radical ideas that demand a significant restructuring of our mental models, such as challenging deeply held religious beliefs or political ideologies, may be discarded, deemed "too expensive" from an energetic standpoint.
This principle helps explain why it's often so difficult to change the views of others, regardless of the soundness of your argument. The strength of the argument alone may not be enough to overcome the inherent inertia of our entrenched belief systems.
I think it's comfort. That can be if different things for different people and it can be many things at once.
Spiritual comfort that your god loves you.
Emotional comfort that you can do no wrong.
Community comfort that you and the people like you are the chosen people.
Life/death comfort for what happens after death.
Intellectual comfort to know all the answers.
Vindictive comfort to hate the people you want to.
It can just keep going.
Also, confort for having a higher being supposedly take care of you like your parents did when you were a child. Anything to soothe the loss of infancy.
Because religion evolved to thrive in us.
It's like a parasite, and our mind is the host. It competes with other mind-parasites like other religions, or even scientific ideas. They compete for explanatory niches, for feeling relevant and important, and maybe most of all for attention.
Religions evolved traits which support their survival. Because all the other variants which didn't have these beneficial traits went extinct.
Like religions who have the idea of being super-important, and that it's necessary to spread your belief to others, are 'somehow' more spread out than religions who don't convey that need.
This thread is a nice collection of traits and techniques which religions have collected to support their survival.
This perspective is based on what Dawkins called memetics. It's funny that this idea is reciprocally just another mind-parasite, which attempted to replicate in this comment.
“Fifty thousand years ago there were these three guys spread out across the plain and they each heard something rustling in the grass. The first one thought it was a tiger, and he ran like hell, and it was a tiger but the guy got away. The second one thought the rustling was a tiger and he ran like hell, but it was only the wind and his friends all laughed at him for being such a chickenshit. But the third guy thought it was only the wind, so he shrugged it off and the tiger had him for dinner. And the same thing happened a million times across ten thousand generations - and after a while everyone was seeing tigers in the grass even when there were`t any tigers, because even chickenshits have more kids than corpses do. And from those humble beginnings we learn to see faces in the clouds and portents in the stars, to see agency in randomness, because natural selection favours the paranoid. Even here in the 21st century we can make people more honest just by scribbling a pair of eyes on the wall with a Sharpie. Even now we are wired to believe that unseen things are watching us.”
― Peter Watts, Echopraxia
Because they're convinced it's true. Given that billions of people in the world ( I strongly expect it's the majority) would claim to be religious - perhaps the better question is: "why does anyone not believe in religion?"
Simple, if any religion was true and objectively based in reality, why the fuck do they need missionaries to spread it?
If any religion was true, it would have measurable, verifiable, and predictable traits that would be discovered in isolated societies. If all of mankind's knowledge was erased, we would eventually rebuild our understandings of physics, biology, chemistry and mathematics as they are today. If all knowledge of religions were erased, we would never get the same religions back.
Education is the reason
I guess a part is that science seems to meticulously avoid the question "why do we live", in a non-technical way, in a way that actually gives people a sense of meaning.
That and mental inertia, i.e. some things change very slowly.
I believe in religion. It definitely exists. Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism etc. They all exist. Guaranteed.
How can you not believe in them?
Humans are tribalistic, like leaders who are assertive and charismatic, like simple answers, are easily swayed by emotions, fall victim to logical fallacies, and a plethora of other things that all work just fine if you're operating on a tribal level as we did for most of human history, or rather prehistory. Now that we are in a different phase of technological growth, which has brought with it massive social change, getting rid of all of that superstitious nonsense is very difficult because of aforementioned characteristics. What were beneficial as it tribal species, and arguably even after that, is now a liability. Or at least more of a hindrance to progress.
Because it's been the way it always has been, because people also hate change, are lazy, and tended to prefer both avoiding cognitive dissidents and minimizing effort to achieve desired results, getting rid of religion is a nightmare hassle. Even when the evidence is right there in front of them, people don't care. At least not enough of them. They'd rather listen to their authority figure, or do what all their friends are doing. Which if you're doing what all your friends are doing it just turns into a circle jerk. But since they're in that circle jerk, they tend to just stay in it, and because the people in it are their friends or family, they defend it because it's their tribe. We're kind of hardwired that way.
TLDR, people are dumb monkeys.
A big part of all of this is indoctrination of children. If you didn't introduce religion to children while they are at a vulnerable state, religion would quickly be relegated to a fringe cult.
The percentage of people that aren't flooded with this garbage as children that turn to religion once they are adults is miniscule and could easily be ignored.
The problem is that religion is so powerful and ingrained that they are able to sustain bombard children at a steady pace.
Because they have enough evidence to satisfy them that they should, if they're rational; because they were taught to and never questioned it through self-examination, if they're not.
Note that evidence is not the same as proof; other users have pointed out examples of evidence such as 'testimony from trusted authorities such as parents' and 'personal spiritual experiences' and since those answers were very detailed I won't repeat them here.
I am not even remotely religious. But I take science pretty seriously.
Please tell me, scientifically, why you are so sure that people of faith are wrong?
There is some decent science that prayer does not work. I am not aware of anything offers anything at all testable concerning God.
And if we are simply pushing our preferences on others, I think a more important question is what makes people that claim to be evidence driven to adopt such strong opinions on things ( without evidence ) that they feel comfortable publicly slamming the preferences and values of others ( again with no evidence at all ).
As a science fan, you can say that absence of evidence means you do not have to believe. Correct. You cannot say that an absence of evidence proves your guess correct such that you can treat people who believe otherwise as stupid. Incorrect.
And “they have to show me the evidence” is a moronic stance. As a fan of the scientific method, evidence is YOUR burden of proof. For people that adhere to a religion, their standard is FAITH. So, they are holding up their end and you are dropping the ball. So what gives you the right to be the abuser?
So, I guess my answer to “why do people believe in religion would be”, “well, people still have faith and tradition and science has not produced any evidence that credibly calls that into question”.
Why are people not arriving at this conclusion on their own in 2024? Why have we failed so badly to explain the scientific method that people can still make wild pronouncements like this one.
I don’t like religion because it makes people easy to manipulate. People that treat science like a religion exhibit the same problems. I am not a fan of that.
I am certain that Russel's teapot is not orbiting Jupiter.
If you want to hypothesize about the existence of some kind of demiurge then that's one thing, but religions are about some really and weirdly specific gods with very specific rules and systems and laws without a shred of evidence for anything.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
That teapot is orbiting somewhere. I have no idea if my universe is the one.
Saying that you “know” there is no God is an extraordinary claim. Do you demand extraordinary evidence from people that make that claim? Or do you only demand it from people following a philosophy that requires them to believe independent of evidence?
Honestly, this is about as smart as religious people demanding miracles before they will believe in Science.
I do not demand evidence that Ruasel's teapot is not orbiting Jupiter. It's clearly not and anyone who thinks it is is a quack.
Because they all offer competing and mutually exclusive hypotheses.
Christianity tells us that the one true path to salvation is by accepting Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour.
Hinduism tells us that our next life will take place in this world, based on our actions in this life.
Islam tells us that Mohammed is the one true prophet.
Buddhism says that there are no prophets, enlightenment only comes from within.
They make contradictory claims, so by definition they can't all be right, and they typically claim that they are correct and the other explanations are false, so even if one religion is correct, the rest (comprising of the majority of the faithful) must be wrong.
Religion is an old form of it is what is, hope, direction, tradition, and community.
Can't explain a thing or understand it God's will or only God knows. Can't do anything to help a person because they are in surgery pray or talk to God to wish for good outcomes.
Don't feel loved or know what to do or wanted. God loves you, will show you the way, and wants you.
Most traditions and communities in the west were founded on a religion so you have hundreds of people to connect with at a church and maybe millions world wide that will help. Those raised on books of wisdom or what is right and wrong still tend to keep the values even after they move away from the religion but realize they can have values without divine beings
Lastly control. Just like businesses it is easier to control people under a religion so if you can get people indebted, traditionalized, and ostracized otherwise. You can control people easily. Lots of people don't know what to do and why trust another human being but if a human being says wisely God said this it is easier to accept and gain a direction
In vsauses video "The Future of Reason" he talks about how logic is a best seen in a group context, (a group consensus). So if a group of people agree on something, that is how it is. You can also put in some "if its not important to change the consensus for the group, don't change it" as to why belief in groups doesn't change very fast. Also the social and economic aspect, groups have people, people need people, you can also more easily find skilled people in a group.
(both religious and secular groups). Examples of belief, god cannot be observed directly, but religious people still believe : scientists can't find dark matter, but they still believe that it exists. The most important reason is that groups in general serve the people that are in them. Religions keep together well because the majority of people believe in the group consensus (e.g. god), and get to contribute and gain the benefits of the group. Universities are a good example aswell, as they provide employment, teach skills, and foster community and independence.
Good question btw
I can think of four possible reasons:-
It works on my system - We are shaped by our experiences. To someone who had their life turned around by a religious order (or a religious individual), it would make sense to follow their teachings.
Opium of the masses - Life is filled with suffering. It is nice to imagine that there is someone looking out for you. An afterlife free of suffering is even better.
Just following orders - If you want to do something, but don't think your community will support you, it is easier if you say 'god told me to do it'. It might also make it easier to justify the action to yourself.
Church of England - You don't care much either way, but it's too much of a hassle to leave. Plus meeting your friends and neighbours every week is fun.
First of all, I want to make it clear that I'm glad to answer genuine questions made in good faith (no pun intended), but I won't argue with anyone.
I'm a practicing Hellenic Polytheist and this is my personal experience. I do not only worship deities with names and myths, but also the twinkling of stars, the waves of the ocean, the colors of a sunset, the kindling of a fire on a cold winter day, and the rustling of leaves in the treetops. Sometimes I look at the sky and see stars so far away that we will (probably) never reach them, and that feels divine to me. There's something that can't be described with words that is too great for a human to understand, and I find that something so beautiful that I will worship it.
Got a bit poetic there, but I also think that my relationship with religion has also been influenced by the good old autism a lot. I find the psychology behind religion very fascinating, and I think that for some people, especially those who have been raised in a certain faith, it is a "home" that provides comfort in difficult situations. For some people, the thought that a recently deceased loved one is now in Heaven or has been reincarnated as someone/something else is probably a lot easier to accept than that they don't exist anymore in any shape or form.
That being said, I also want to state that I always try to maintain a healthy sense of scepticism with my beliefs, whether they be religious, moral, or political, because blind belief never leads to anything good. I think that sadly the darker aspects of religion, such as cults and using religion to justify unjust power structures (the patriarchy or the divine right of kings for example) are hard to get rid of.
Because we're more akin to LLMs than we might be comfortable to admit. Or at least parts of us, subsystems of our psyches... Brains are belief engines more than they are objective parsers of reality.