I could never go back to Windows, after having tasted the freedom of Linux.
Linux has its flaws, but so does Windows. And for me, the flaws in Windows became much more annoying than the ones in Linux. Game compatibility was the main factor that kept me backt from using it on a desktop, and that's a non issue nowadays.
Game compatibility
Steam+Proton is pretty impressive. I can play Baldur's Gate 3 on my Thelio. Does get a little toasty, though ....
I'm still dualbooting Windows to play games with a controller until I can get off my ass and buy a USB hub. Reason being that the Xbox Series controllers has issues with my mobo's Bluetooth chipset, even when updating the firmware. Bluetooth support is particularly inconsistent with these.
But outside of the odd app that needs Windows (and I can just boot a VM for that), Linux has been really good on the desktop.
I invested in an Icy Box IB-AC6110 powered 10 port usb hub a while ago too, but it is more for additional controllers, specifically joysticks and the likes. Mainboards just don't have enough USB ports for all that. Dual sticks or a hotas? Two gone. Maybe some pedals? Now it is 3. How about a camera and a head tracker? Well, 4-5 depending on your product solution. Defo gives me some peace of mind to be good on USB ports.
For me it's the basic things that drive me crazy in Windows: the Start menu doesn't work half of the time, and it shows web results above the program you want to run. File operations are slow and the File Explorer crashes a lot. Application windows constantly steal focus from the one I'm typing in, leading to passwords being typed into code, documents, web browsers or other unsafe places. Background indexing is constant and eats up CPU, and the file search still takes forever despite all this indexing.
These are all basic things that Microsoft has had decades to get working, and they're all still broken. Microsoft always seem to be paying attention to anything but the quality of the user's experience.
By contrast, Linux is just relaxing.
Man that MS indexing is so terrible. I shut it off because it was robbing my system when trying to work, and as you said it is slow anyway. Compared to GNOME desktop where the indexing is invisible to user, I hit the Suoer key type a few letters it instantly shows me results as you would expect indexing to work.
I always see people say this but does no one here use professional apps like solidworks or revit? Are there good Linux alternatives? I’d switch to Linux but I need solidworks for work I do.
Windows is the defacto standard for desktop PCs for a reason. In a corporate setting it's kind of the ideal.
Because of the sheer number of users, most software is built with Windows in mind and therefore has the most support. It's pretty rare that you find an application that doesn't have a Windows build available.
On top of that tools like Active Directory, and group policy makes managing thousands of machines at scale a reasonably simple affair.
Microsoft is a corporation rather than a community so you can always expect their main goals to be profit-driven and that comes with some nasty baggage, but it's not enough that it's easy for professionals to make the switch.
Linux has made lightspeed progress over the last decade, especially with Proton making games mostly work cross platform, but outside of specialist use cases, the vast majority of business PCs and by extension home PCs will be running Windows for the foreseeable future.
The popularity of Windows is largely due to the fact it's pre installed on most PC's when you buy them, people literally think Windows 'is the computer'. Such popularity has little to do with Windows being a great OS. In many ways Windows is like McDonalds: It's not the best, it's not the worst, it just fills that hump in the bell curve.
Due to the fact Linux has no marketing department, it's unlikely this will ever change.
I work in software and I haven’t touched windows in a very long time. Even back whenever I worked on FPGA development all of that software ram on Linux, so I think you’ll find that this is very field dependent.
Closest thing I use to a professional app is DaVinci Resolve Studio on a distribution that is not officially supported by Blackmagic. Not only does Resolve Studio work perfectly, I am able to use Blackmagic hardware (Intensity Pro 4k, Speed Editor) without having to mess around with settings, config files, permissions, packages, etc.
The caveat here is the initial setup: I use an AMD GPU, and it’s a bit of a pain to get the free and licensed versions of Resolve working with those under Linux. However, once that’s out of the way, it’s completely seamless.
As for CAD…yeah that’s where everything falls over. There are tons of FOSS alternatives out there but I have yet to see any of them in a professional setting. Even Fusion360 is hit or miss under Wine, I spun up a Windows VM just to use that for my 3D printer tinkering.
Enough with the fan wars. Let's be perfectly honest for once. Windows, Linux, MacOS - they all suck. Sometimes in similar ways, sometimes in different ways. But they all suck.
Windows users - I get you, you use it because it sorta works 40%, of the time and sucks in the way you understand.
Linux users - I get you, you know all of the arcane incantations you need to quickly install, update, and troubleshoot your os in a terminal window. It works - once you apply your custom bash script that applies every change you need to get everything exactly how you like it. But again, it sucks in the way you understand.
MacOS users - well I don't really get you. You know what you've done.
We deserve better than this, guys. We deserve an os that just works, is easy to use, easy to configure, doesn't require an IT degree to use, and that we can recommend to our grandma without a second thought.
just works, is easy to use, easy to configure, doesn't require an IT degree to use, and that we can recommend to our grandma
TempleOS satisfies all of these conditions
Okay, this quote from the Wikipedia page made me laugh.
TempleOS received mostly "sympathetic" reviews. Tech journalist David Cassel opined that "programming websites tried to find the necessary patience and understanding to accommodate Davis".
MacOS users - well I don’t really get you. You know what you’ve done.
Probably an unpopular opinion on here, but the OS I recommend for grandparents and parents is ChromeOS. It's so locked down that it's almost indestructible, and they almost never need any specialized software that you'd use Windows/MacOS for. If you're savvy enough you can also use Linux on it in a container, which is how I prefer to use it for day to day stuff (in my case, data related workflows).
No that's fair. It just assumes that everything you'll ever need is on a browser, which in the case of grandparents, is probably true.
I would just um....never tell them about the Android app store because that can get real messy real quick.
Yep. I'm in IT, so every time my parents' computer "does something weird," I get a call. Bought them Chromebooks a few Christmases ago and the calls have all but stopped.
Macbooks just make really nice ssh terminals for accessing your Linux dev environment. Though these days there are decent options for Linux terminals with a similar form factor, they just don't tend to be much cheaper.
I think that something like 20% of what's keeping me using Mac is iTerm2's integration with ‘tmux -CC‘
It kinda felt like you were gonna break into song about the Year of the BSD Desktop for a second there!
macOS is BSD-based—so technically that’s been true for about 22 years
Originally but afaik they rewrote basically the whole OS over the years and nothing of the original BSD remains. That's what I heard but I never verified.
When I worked as a IT Tech at a University years ago we had a lot of MacOS users who believed they could just pick it up and use it like their iPhone. It was absurd how well their marketing worked because those users either forced themselves to learn it or dropped it and went back to Windows.
I know a lot of iOS users who have iPads and iPhones but still have windows PCs because they don't have to worry about compatibility issues.
I know you made a joke about MacOS, but I am genuinely interested with what issue you have of it.
It sucks in the way you understand and know because nothing else even exists. No one is interested in having to cater to their walled garden unless there's money to be made. Meanwhile both Linux and Windows have many open source projects and hobbyists working on things. So you might get a mac driver for something you buy but most of the time macos is an afterthought at best in many hobby projects. Also lol mac gaming is a joke. Even Linux is getting better support now than macos in that regard since the Steamdeck.
Yeah it was just a joke because I love to piss off the MacOS guys. But its like a brotherly teasing. Like, I love you guys, but I gotta rib you, you know.
I think Apple's biggest sin is that everything works as long as all of your hardware, software, and co-workers have an apple emblazoned on their back. But the moment you have to work with anything or anyone that doesnt use Apple, you have problems. And Apple seems to encourage this because it gets their users to dread working with Windows or Linux users.
The sad thing is that I like a lot of their software. But using their OS is like having Steve Jobs standing over your shoulder and smacking you on the head when you try to shift outside of their intended workflow. I keep running into situations where Windows and Linux would let me go left or right (after finding a hidden and misnamed switch or running a well researched and crafted bash command), and MacOS just put a roadblock on the left because fuck you we said no.
I know that my ideal of a perfect OS is unrealistic. MacOS is more stable because it's more rigid. Windows and Linux prove that the more flexible you are, the harder it is to use. But settling for one option and looking down at everyone who chose different isn't going to help. We should all keep criticising our chosen option and root for others that are criticising their own. Because it seems like Apple, Microsoft, and the Open Source community are all in a rut, safely ignoring basic fucking usage issues because of an implicit assumption that their user base isn't going anywhere.
I live in a mixed OS household. My wife and I both use windows and Apple machines for various purposes (my wife's work requires both, my mac is just for dabbling) and I have some linux boxes for streaming or storage or whatever. And while that gives me the benefits of all three, I also have to deal with the problems of all three. And its a lot, guys. Not to mention they all refuse to work together.
This is a pointless argument even saying that everyone sucks, linux runs worse on the desktop because it doesn't get even 1/10th the investment from consumer hardware manufacturers compared to windows or mac to make it compatible.
nevertheless linux is undoubtedly less difficult and more efficient to integrate than windows, for example the steam deck is done very well but it could be done better since KDE, wayland and arch do not have the same number of employees as microsoft.
It depends. It could also be a better idea to introduce a sort of "IT driver's license" for everyone to have basic understanding/skills to use their devices. Sure, modern software stacks are ridiculously complex and no one understands every detail down to each machine code/assembly instruction, so there's always a big amount of abstraction or simplification needed, but I don't think it's a good idea to request that someone with literal zero knowledge whatsoever should be able to perfectly use an OS or device. That's also not even possible. I see it with my mother, she started from zero knowledge but she had to learn some basics to be able to do the few things she needs to do. Of course she uses Linux. No prior Windows knowledge means a much easier start with Linux of course. She wouldn't have been able to use Windows either with zero knowledge. So this is a point that some forget: even Windows users need knowledge to be able to use Windows, and they probably already earned that knowledge in much earlier years. This Windows knowledge also works against you building up Linux (or even OS X) knowledge because Windows works quite differently from a Unix-like OS. This is not irrelevant: a Windows user who spent like 30 years in Windows has a much harder time learning Linux, than someone who didn't have that. But, again, not really the fault of Linux that you indoctrinated yourself with Windows-only MS product specific knowledge over the last decades. This is probably the biggest problem there is, because almost everyone on the planet has already acquired some amount of Windows knowledge in the past. This works against you when trying to switch. Windows knowledge is mostly Windows-specific. When learning about IT, you should make sure that you learn things in a preferably OS agnostic way. Which is also the reason why schools etc. should never teach "using MS products". They should always teach fundamentals, irrelevant of what you use afterwards. And those fundamentals should of course not be taught using commercial products, but rather open source software.
Then there are some fantasies which MS and Apple could establish in the broader population which aren't true, for example that CLI/terminal usage is archaic and has no place on modern desktops anymore. CLI usage will always remain as a fast alternative to a lot of tasks which are hard or even impossible to do via GUI. Even MS has realized this and introduced Powershell, a new terminal, and winget, for example. As well as WSL (which was originally and still mostly is being used to have access to powerful Linux-based CLI utilities).
Yet still a lot of people seem to think that CLI is obsolete or that it's "hard". Sure, if you do some scripting or complex one-liners, it can be too hard for someone without strong IT knowledge. But most commands are really basic and easy to understand. Even my mother is able to use basic commandline utilities, and she even prefers it sometimes over clicking around in the GUI. To claim that this is impossible or too hard to learn for a Windows user is, I don't know. At least untrue. Probably even an insult to your own intelligence.
And the main reason why most Linux users suggest doing things via commandline is that this is an almost distro- and desktop-independent way of doing things.
Also, not a big fan of the "fan" label here. Regardless of whether or not you like Linux (I like Linux as an OS more than Windows, because I think the Unix-way is better, but it's also about so much more), I see a neutral, free/libre open source (FLOSS) operating system as the base for our digital lives as a necessity, and so I see Windows or OS X as intrinsically worse. I don't see it as a kind of war between different products on equal footing. One product denies you any rights and control (and in more recent times, also extracts even more value and data from you than just the price you paid for the license to use it), and one that gives you full rights and control (and pretty much never extracts any more from you). It's not OK that we use our devices for so many things in life nowadays, that all aspects of your life are being done via digital means nowadays, and yet the most popular operating systems are still 100% proprietary black boxes fully controlled by big US companies. This needs to change, and it should have happened a long time ago already. And Linux is simply the most mature and most well supported FLOSS operating system out of all of them. I actually wouldn't care if it would be FreeBSD or OpenBSD or whatever instead, but I see Linux as being the most mature, well-supported and mainstream-viable option here. I only care that it's not a damn black box I don't have any real control over.
We need (almost) everyone on such open technologies like Linux, because the future (or even present) for Windows users looks like this: no control, no privacy (plus AI being trained on your work/data as well), big vulnerability when (not if) MS gets hacked (and they're a huge, juicy target, and we already saw them being compromised twice in the last couple of years), pricey subscription to MS' services which continues to get pricier once you're successfully vendor-locked-in (once all your servers, desktops and data is in MS' cloud, you won't be able to easily leave their services anymore, so they are free to increase prices until it hurts you). Even if you happen to like the offering MS gives you, does that really seem like "the future" of computing to you? To me, that's backwards. Or mainframe history repeating itself. Moving into proprietary clouds with vendor-lock-in only really benefits the cloud provider, which is why they want all users to join the "party".
I'm not a big fan of Stallman in general, but his fundamental propositions e.g. that FLOSS software is intrinsically better than proprietary black boxes, is true. I wonder how long we still need as a society, to arrive at that realization. I assumed that the Snowden revelations as well as the desaster that Windows 10 was for privacy, would have already started a change in thinking about such things. But that probably wasn't enough (strangely). I'm not sure what else would need to happen, but I guess something like first MS shoving all their users into their cloud, and then MS being hacked (again) but this time with malicious auto-updates being pushed to all MS software users as well, impacting tons of businesses. Then, maybe, people will start thinking whether this was such a great idea to begin with to play along with what MS envisioned as the "grand future". Unfortunately I see parallels with the human behavior concerning climate change here as well. It's like we have to first destroy our climate and suffer the consequences, before we realize it's a bad idea and we should do it differently RIGHT NOW. We are just incredibly short-sighted and we only learn AFTER disasters, which were even announced long before. It's tragic.
And for those people who know or think they could start using Linux but still use Windows because it's more "aesthetically pleasing" or whatever else irrelevant aspect they make up to "justify" still staying on that sinking MS ship in 2023, please reconsider your priorities.
Windows: "We dropped support for that thing you bought brand new 5 years ago"
Linux: "We are considering dropping support for something that has existed for longer than you had"
Linux: “We're dropping support for this device because we're fairly sure we had the last one in existence and it just died.”
Hell, I can get a 30 year old HP LaserJet 4 printer working just fine on almost any version of Linux with the official HPLIP CLI software provided by (shockingly) HP, which was updated 2 months ago with support for over 50 new printers and the following OSes:
LinuxMint 21.1
MxLinux 21.3
Elementary OS 7
Ubuntu 22.10
RHEL 8.6
RHEL 8.7
RHEL 9.1
Fedora 37
I HATE HP and their printers (PC LOAD LETTER WTF FOR LIFE) but I will admit that this is impressive support.
Gentoo: yeah I'll run on a potato if you tell me how to do it.
NetBSD: we already run on the potato, oh and that yam over there.
Still can't believe they dropped support for i386 😤
It's not even a matter of when. I was recently given an i7 6700K, and no game, old or new, comes close to fully using it, and it's not even overclocked. If anyone is in doubt about the requirement being artificial, try this CPU.
The windows 11 cpu requirement isn’t a requirement per se but a "it’s validated to work on this or newer".
6th gen Intel is no problem. Even 4th gen or older aren’t a problem, performance wise. The problem is the mandatory TPM 2.0 support. Intel CPUs only massively support that from 6th gen on and AMD CPUs even later (I think Zen 2). On some older boards you might have luck, especially if you buy a hardware TPM but my PC for example, running a i7 3770, only has a TPM 1.2 and no way to upgrade to 2.0.
Now, there are ways to circumvent the need for a TPM all together on Win 11 but tbh, Win 10 installs perfectly well still on Hardware as old as Athlon 64 and in my experience even better than 11 anyways.
It's a requirement both on paper and in that, even though Microsoft document an official way to bypass it, they will warn you that they do not even guarantee security updates unless your CPU is supported. Moreover, we know of at least one game, Valorant, that will not work on Windows 11 unless you are meeting its hardware requirements. The bottom line is that installing Windows 11 is a risk.
I've worked exclusively with Linux servers since 2002 and exclusively Linux desktop since 2004 and I've come to the point where I prettyuch refuse to touch windows for fear it will infect me somehow.
I know most people don't know any better but it's insanity to me that anyone still pays money for windows. It's a scam, no other words for it.
Don't even get me started on Windows servers. It's just sad to see how much money is spent on a company that has so litte focus on quality.
Even the online services suck. Dear God Microsoft, would it kill you to understand that people might have gasp TWO tabs open with your teams "app"?
Even azure runs Linux
To think that even daedric prince would do that.
I guess I pay for the convenience that I get when I buy a new game, simply press Install and start playing. I spend most of my free time playing games on PC, I have no other reasons to stick to Windows. I'll happily switch to Linux on the day when every new release works with no extra problems, tinkering, waiting or searching caused by my choice of OS.
This is going to sound selfish, but I don't have the "energy" of fighting against whatever the current meta is - I just have to appreciate the more invested people that drive Linux forward. I'll just follow and use the OS where I get the smoothest overall experience for gaming (including thing like mouse/kb driver support). Windows is the current answer for this, one day it'll be something else - hopefully Linux.
Shit's been progressing really fast recently - I guess Steam Deck is doing some heavy lifting when it comes to motivating developers to keep Linux in mind. Direct support will always give the best results for everyone.
I'll happily switch to Linux on the day when every new release works with no extra problems, tinkering, waiting or searching caused by my choice of OS.
Let me give you an honest answer that no Linux users is willing to give you (certainly because they fear to scare people off of Linux): you will never see the day where Linux will be equal if not better than Windows for gaming (which it can be sometimes, but it's not always the case) if not a certain amount of people get out of their comfort zone and are willing to try something new. In fact, nobody can improve anything in their life if they're not willing to get out of their comfort zone.
You're already using a PC to play video games, I did this choice too, so trust me, you definitely have the energy to change for a better OS, something ever you recognize as having qualities outside of games. Otherwise, you would've played exclusively on console where you actually have a plug and play experience... unfortunately at the cost of your freedom to use the machine you bought however you want, besides all the other considerable disadvantages.
For me, Linux made as much progress as it can do, meaning now, for Linux to be viable for gaming, either companies start to move their asses and make Linux native games (which they can easily do, if they're willing to use the right tools for their game like Vulkan) but I hardly see that coming any time soon, or new users have to come to Linux so that companies would finally care.
Personally, I made my choice by making the first step.
Games don't always run perfectly under Windows on release either.
I specifically remember one of the CoD games running just long enough to use up all my vram, whereby it would promotly crash. Took about about two weeks to sort that one out.
My tinkering under Linux consists of downloading a game under Steam, ticking a compatibility checkbox, and playing the game. For other launchers, I simply open Bottles and install the launcher of my choosing. Been playing Diablo 4 under Battle.net just fine since launch.
It blows my mind just how bad file system performance is under Windows compared to Linux. I mean, you literally have to have an SSD in order for the OS to be responsive. Granted, most have SSD's these days, but performance on spinning rust shouldn't be that bad.
I’ll happily switch to Linux on the day when every new release works with no extra problems, tinkering, waiting or searching caused by my choice of OS.
I've used Linux since about 2004 for personal use. On my homer server(s) and desktop. 95% of them Gentoo (stable).
For my relatives I've installed some EL workstation distro. Especially my father needs a install-and-forget system, which Windows isn't.
But I do install and fix Windows PCs at my work. It's because how Windows works (or rather not work) I get paid.
That said, the more I use Windows the more I get frustrated with it.
One of the worst things lately was the accidental activation of BitLocker. It got activated even when the user didn't have Microsoft account (from where he/she would retrieve the encryption key to decrypt the data if Windows decides to lock the drive). "Oh I'm sorry, but because M$ fuckup your data is gone. Do you have backups? 😇"
To avoid any BitLocker issues the secure boot should be disabled. BitLocker shouldn't then be available for activation.
Some of the frustrating sides of Windows can be avoided by using Pro version of Windows. But that's simply not enough.
IMO the only reason to use (suffer from) Windows is if you play some games that require it.
My personal solution to that problem ist to not play those games. There's plenty of stuff to play on Steam that runs fine on Linux.
It's the professional software that's lacking in Linux, and that's the only reason I keep a Windows machine around. For music production, video production, design work, photography and so on, Windows has good commercial software that is well established in these professions.
But for most people, including gamers, Linux is a very good option right now.
I recently setup a Windows vm for my mum because she also needs photo and video editing sw and isn't happy with the Linux alternatives. This works astonishingly well. Virtualbox even has a mode now to fully integrate the vm into the existing desktop, so basically she just gets the windows status bar in addition to the Linux one when she starts the vm. Windows programs open as if they were running natively. Might be worth a try for you.
Windows requirements: sprawling list of unsupported hardware based on an arbitrary requirment for a security chip that doesn't actually improve security at all
Linux: CPU (optional)
As a person who has used linux i can confirm that my daughter runs linux
I don't think microcontrollers count as CPU, right? Do they have an ALU?
Yes they do. Microcontrollers contain a microprocessor that is optimized for branching instructions and already include memory and peripheral interfaces which are connected directly to the processor bus (opposed to general purpose CPUs).
carefully select hardware
lmao, i've exclusively run linux on franken pcs cobbled together out of mostly second hand parts
Pop OS has native drivers for nVidia GPUs even 😎🐧
Correction: POP!_OS has their own APT deb farm that has the latest hardware stack. This includes the proprietary 535 nvidia driver and later as well as the kernel and mesa.
This is part of the history of the distribution as it was made to support system76's latest hardware lineup on top of an Ubuntu base.
Nouveau is the libre driver for Nvidia on GNU/Linux with Nvidia slowly segregating their proprietary driver into a firmware blob.
I think this is a bit misleading.
Most or at least the majority of distros offer the proprietary nvidia driver.
Pop, Zorin, Ubuntu, Garuda, etc just bundle it in the install media as an option.
The first thing I installed windows on was an discarded office tower that I had to put new memory And hard drives in. Shit was ancient and specifically did not want anything but windows installed on it. Installed Linux anyway. Works great. No specific hardware
Linux has always been my go to for that specific use case as well, and I honestly have very little Linux experience. Linux just makes bizarre half broken hardware, like bad ram, work.
I upgraded my Intel system to AMD today. And I didn't have to reinstall a damn thing, because my existing Linux installation Just Worked™. It really is to the point that I could never imagine going back to Windows.
CPU vendors are usually pretty seamless to swap on Winblows, other than the fact that Windows will possibly whine that you've modified your system too much and need a new license 🤓
I've encountered issues swapping a Windows install between machines equipped with an Intel processor to one equipped with a current AMD processor.
In the meantime, my KDE Neon install has been swapped between four different PC's now without a single issue.
Same, I've always had issues with swaps on Windows. Never a single one on Linux -- plus no chasing a license/activation.
Windows will possibly whine that you've modified your system too much and need a new license
If the MAC address changes, Windows activation will always fail. I just don't see any of that as worth the trouble anymore since The Windows Difference™ is just telemetry overhead and updates that need to happen while I'm trying to get something done.
I like Linux a lot, but saying you can't understand why someone would run Windows on a server just shows a lack of knowledge. Linux is great in a lot of server applications in the application realm. However, it doesn't get close to the power of Active Directory and Group Policy for Windows device management. Besides that, a lot of people are more comfortable with a UI for managing DHCP, DNA, etc in a SMB environment. Even if they prefer a command line for those tools PowerShell allows those people to coexist with those that prefer a GUI. Under certain circumstances, (mainly ones where a business is forgoing AD for AAD), Linux can be the right choice. Pretending that there's no place for Windows Server, though, is asinine.
This community is very much a "Windows bad" community. I personally find that annoying as I use Windows and Linux. Both have their pros and cons. Windows though is seen here as the shitest OS out there which far from the truth.
PowerShell is amazing and I install it on my Linux desktop.
The main problem are companies forcing windows servers and technologies when they are not the good ones for the task.
If one needs to set up desktops for accounting, windows is fine. But I saw companies setting shared NFS drives used by Linux severs on windows machines! Not joking!
I know companies that even deploy kubernetes clusters on windows servers!
Just because finding cheap windows engineers is easy, everyone has had an experience on windows to put on a cv. Than some of that cheap labor go up the hierarchy as head of a random infrastructure team because all good sys engineers moved to manage linux servers after some time, he recruits people like-minded, and in few years you ends up with a team refusing to do the right thing because "we know windows and windows can do the same as Linux and Microsoft is good for governance and Linux bad". Execs don't understand the difference and force architecture to go along because they don't believe it's worthy to rebuild a team, we are anyway using windows for accounting and execs laptops, it can't be that bad! Even accenture and mckinsey consultants us it! And they told us that wls2 is the holy grail
Corporate IT is the peak of suboptimal tools for the job because politics and money
We use both. Its not my department but i know the server guys are using windows for some servers and linux for others and the decision is normally made based on which is going to be best for the specific needs of the function of that server.
Pretending one is outright better than the other is childish. Just use whats best at the time.
There's this thing I notice. If windows asks you to learn something or put up with some BS it's seen as the cost of business, reasonable, or simply not even noticed. If Linux requires you to learn something, like read one article about which distro might work best for you, it's seen as an insurmountable difficulty or an absurd ask.
it's sunk cost bias. I have this trying to use windows or macos, after using linux exclusively for half my life - everything feels foreign and frustrating, with an obnoxious amount of UX patterns you're expected to know in order to find anything. ugh, I could rant for hours on how obtuse macos is (mainly because I have to interact with it for work right now - if you force me to use windows, I'll rant about that too)
The nice thing about Linux is you can pick a DE that apes whatever OS you're used to so the transition from Windows or Mac to desktop Linux can be very painless.
dear god if I could just run xmonad and dmenu on windows or mac I'd hate employers that tried to force me to use one or the other so much less.
oh my god another xmonad user. You can get almost close with some paid tiling window managers in mac but you can't recreate the managed layouts of xmonad.
yep stuck on Xorg forever gang
Cries in perfectly managed window layouts and reasonable defaults.
It definitely is ya. I use mac for work and that shit sucks
Every time I've been asked to learn about Windows this year has resulted in "Haha fuck you who do you think you are? The owner of this computer? Eat shit pleb you belong to steve balmer now".
You wouldn't believe the amount of bullshit you have to go through to exorcise Edge. Some people told me "This is to protect the user" so i sent them back a picture of system.32 in the recycle bin.
I quit windows after I spent a few hours trying to get permission to delete a file I knew I didn't need but but windows just refused to allow even admin accounts to touch. Had to dig so deep into windows settings.
I had same problem multiple times when I tried Windows. The recommendations I could find on internet were to disable fast startup and boot into live Linux disc.
I don't use linux because a linux computer is not usable for me. I use mine for blender(works on Linux), Creo(does not work), DCS(no linux support, people say it's hard to get working with wine/proton game things) and Destiny (anti cheat will ban you if you run it through one of the linux game things). Like it or not, "just learn an entire new os and new software for all the things you want to do" is not an option for most people.
No I'll never deny that. Some things do only work in very specific environments. I'll also never pretend learning is a task with zero effort or that everyone is interested in doing. What bugs me is when people are dishonest about it. Linux is not impossibly difficult to use nor is Windows a sublime user experience with no friction.
Anticheat though ya that's fucked. Hate that. I'll admit I have a Windows partition solely for playing the few games that require it. Though haven't booted it in a year or so.
I was flirting with Linux for 20 years. There was always something that put me off an I went back to Windows. Recently I installed ubuntu with Kde plasma and I'm not going back. It just works and is heaps faster on older hardware. The old driver issues are gone, compatibility is awesome. The only issue is getting used to new software names.
Same. I started with Ubuntu like a decade ago. I hated it and didn't really see the fuss, kind of gave up.
But then I started putting in tons of time in rasbian, and windows kept getting more and more.. Well, windows. I eventually realized how much more I liked working on stuff on the pi, and just needed proper hardware. That's also when I started to understand the differences between distros. I'm not flaming Ubuntu (I'm not really smart enough to have an opinion), it was just a lot of hastle for something I didn't understand the upside of yet.
Been wrestling with my first all Linux (Debian) box. It's a bit of a learning curve but there's this weird headspace it frees up. It does what I tell it. There's no random software that shows up. There's nothing I can't nuke. No surveys on my favorite BBQ dish in my Taskbar (true story). It's so godamn nice. It's the opposite of a black box.
Im getting another (3rd) box specifically to slowly replace my current desktop. Ill be fooling around with WINE and whatnot for the software I need for work, probably setting up a small windows partition for when I absolutely need it. But all in all I'll be 90% penguin by years end.
I dual boot fedora with plasma (it has all my laptop drivers without me having to install anything) with Windows and it's pretty great, but I was out of Linux for a long time and there's things I don't remember. So I'm missing stuff and don't have the time to relearn what I knew 20 years ago.
It works well enough for day to day tasks and dev work. Windows works well enough to run some games.
Everyone acts like nvidia support on linux is completely broken. I game with nvidia on mine regularly and have never had a driver bug.
It's not that it's broken, it's that the open source driver stack and AMD cards are a superior experience. The Nvidia Linux driver is just like the Windows driver.
I think it's more that they are broken (esp. on Wayland) and that they are closed source and that they are not pre-installed in Mesa and that they lack basic features such as GAMMA_LUT for night light on Wayland...
You know, I've been using Linux on desktops and laptops for like 20 years now. I can count on one hand then number of times I've had hardware support issues. Outside of a fingerprint scanner, I've been able to solve all of those issues.
Meanwhile, my adventures across the years dealing with Windows drivers led me to finally say "fuck it" earlier this year and nuke the Windows install on my gaming rig in favor of Nobara.
I'll take Linux hardware support over Microsoft any day of the week.
I have the opposite experience. For 15 years I've been installing windows on laptops and desktops. Never did I had to 'solve' driver issues. They were either easy to find, by clicking 'search in windows update' or were supported directly through windows itself. No need to solve anything...
The opposite was true for my few Linux (Ubuntu and Linux mint) adventures. Every time something would just not work. The most frustrating for me was the broken sleep function. There was no way to get my laptop to sleep properly. It would wake up at random times or just not boot anymore thereafter.
Just saying that these kind of things really depend on what you work with and what you want to get out of a system
I totally get that. The world is a funny place, and no two people will habe the same lived experience.
And FTR, as weird as this may sound to you, the big deal to me was that on Linux (usually Debian/Ubuntu, Fedora, Arch, or a derivative of those three) there were significantly fewer problems in the first place, never mind whether or not they got solved. I may just have gotten a lucky spin on the Great Hardware Roulette Wheel.
That reminds me of a Microsoft-branded USB WiFi adapter that I was making heavy use of back in mid-2000s. The MN-510. You could buy it brand-new circa 2006. It had a $75 launch MSRP, about $114 adjusted for inflation. Come 2009, we find out that Windows 7 wasn't going to support it. And given what we know about OS development cycles, they presumably made that call in '08 or even '07. Looking back on it, I think this was one of the major catalysts for me to reconsider Linux as a drop-in replacement. Because, wouldn't you know, the adapter kept working just fine when I tried it out in Ubuntu. Support was simply there in the kernel. Plug-and-play. I suddenly had this whole other operating system providing an it-just-works network connection, for free. It was amazing. So I used that adapter for several more years until I could afford a network upgrade. And I'm still using Linux the majority of the time today.
I switched to arch using qtile wm a few months ago. Couldn't be happier. If a game doesn't run on my rig either though stream or lutris well I just don't play it, there's way more games to discover and play.
This! I literally give Windows a chance every version. I even kind of liked Windows 11 this go around.
But something always breaks and no matter how much I trouble shoot the fix is to reinstall windows. To which I say screw that and start distro hoping.
11 with 2022 gaming laptop just stopped updating. The only non native app I had on the thing was STEAM! I have been using Linux for 18 years because it's the only way I know how to fix Windows.
I'd rather stick my head in the rotating blades of a combine harvester than deal with HP printer drivers...
Well, you've got me on that one.
I'll take Linux hardware support over Microsoft any day of the week.
I'm really undecided on this. It really depends on the type of hardware, for example when dealing with graphics card drivers, especially nvidia I'll take windows over linux any day. On the other hand on Linux I don't have to install drivers for almost anything and things mostly just work unless the device is brand new.
I've been using all of the major OSs and they're all good and they all suck in their own way. Windows does suck a bit more than the others, but I don't think it's as terrible as diehard Linux fanboys make it out to be.
I still use Windows on my home PC because bideo gaems and music production. I'd prefer to use Linux instead but oh well it's not the worst thing.
Gaming on Linux has gotten to the point that if it won't play on linux, I just shrug and play something else. Their are more native games, and games that aren't native usually run under Proton, Proton GE, or Wine. There's not much left that won't play.
The Nvidia thing is less of a problem these days with distros like Nobara, Gardua, and Vanilla installing proprietary Nvidia drivers out of the box. Heck, you can even do it with almost 0 extra effort on plain Fedora.
I can't help you with music production, though. Linux has some good stuff for that, but my understanding is that Mac and Windows are still the best choice.
Anyway, like I said to someone else, everyone's different, and everyone's threshold for horse hockey gets set off by different things. It's all perspective, really.
Unless you care about privacy. That one's more empirical than perceptual.
Ps3. Raspberry pi. Phones. All computers ive ever tried to install it on.. and even M-chip macs.
I had a pile of old parts of all sorts of machines sitting in some boxes. Was poking through and thought "hang on"... Bing bang boom threw some bits together and built a new PC to run a jellyfin media server on Mint. Don't even know what most of the parts are...
The new CPU requirements for Windows 11 are why I wiped it and am now on Linux Mint. No dual-booting.
Wha? Even a bleeping potato can run Linux nowadays, with zero issues at day 1.
t. Got a Orange pi zero 3, and the lil' bastard is rocking solid -- even with (near zero) support.
Imagine not having all your drivers baked in into your kernel
Imagine not knowing about kernel modules 🤣
shit like this comment thread is why regular people use windows. who the fuck wants to learn about this kind of stuff when you can just point and click? especially when the people who should be helping you post brain-dead self-congratulatory gate-keeping shit like this.
if y'all want people to use linux maybe make it palatable instead of maintaining its difficulty so you can get a chubby about how smart you are
shit like this comment thread is why regular people use windows
No, regular people use Windows because that's what their device they purchased came with. If they bought a Chromebook instead for example, they'd be using ChromeOS which is based on Linux, and if they bought a Smart TV, it'd probably be running some sort of Linux-based OS as well.
Regular people don't know or care about Linux, nor what operating system their device is running - they just want a device that's easy to use, looks good, has a good price and can let them use Facebook, Zoom etc or whatever it is they're expecting from that device.
who the fuck wants to learn about this kind of stuff when you can just point and click
There's no need to learn about this stuff, Linux is already just point and click. The main hurdle these days is installing it on a PC, egular people don't mess around with the OS on their device, they just use whatever it is that came on their device. They shouldn't have any big issues using Linux (especially if it's a user-friendly distro like Zorin OS), as long as it's already installed on their machines.
if y'all want people to use linux maybe make it palatable
It is already palatable, we just haven't gotten mainstream manufactures to sell preloaded devices to the masses. There are some OEMs like System76 that are doing a good job, but they haven't hit mass market yet. What Linux needs is a partnership with mainstream manufacturers and some big $$$ invested into marketing, plus partnering with retail outets like Best Buy etc. And maybe have a hardware certification program, like how Windows has the WHQL. Market the hell out of it, pass out shiny "Linux compatible" stickers to vendors, put Linux on sleek and shiny MacBook-like devices, and you'll find regular people getting into Linux.
i sort of get them, actually. as a nontech person who shifted to Linux out of necessity, i just wanted it to work.
i dont have to imagine not knowing what a kernel module because i still dont, despite using it for years.
I guess I would also be pretty sore if I didn't have... checks notes - all my drivers baked into my kernel?
I think the main trouble makers for consumers are the odd network or bluetooth controllers, especially in laptops, which often come with some exotic bullshit.
They have a point. I'm in the market for a new laptop and I have, so far, returned two of them.
First, I tried a Huawei Matebook 16. I was foolish, but I thought it was "easy". No NVidia, no dGPU at all - just part that looked very standard. It was based on the info I had gathered from a few years of Linux usage: "Basically avoid NVidia and you're good". It was anything but. Broken suspend, WiFi was horrible, random deadlocks, extreme slowness at times (as if the RYZEN 7 wasn't Ryzen 7-ing) to become less smooth than my 5 year old Intel laptop, and broken audio codec (Senary Audio) that didn't work at all on the live, and worked erratically on the installed system using generic hd-audio drivers.
I had a ~€1500 budget, but I raised it to buy a €1700 ThinkPad P16s AMD. No dGPU to speak of, sold with pre loaded Linux, boasting Canonical and Red Hat hardware certifications.
I had:
Broken standby on Linux
GPU bugs and screen flickering on Linux
Various hangs and crashed
Malfunctioning wifi and non working 6e mode. I dug, and apparently the soldered Wi-Fi adapter does not have any kind of Linux support at all, but the kernel uses a quirk to load the firmware of an older Qualcomm card that's kinda similar on it and get it to work in Wi-Fi 6 compatibility mode.
Boggles my mind that the 2 biggest enterprise Linux vendors took this laptop, ran a "thorough hardware certification process" on it and let it pass. Is this a pass? How long have they tried it? Have they even tried suspending?
Of course, that was a return. But when I think about new laptops and Windows 11, basically anything works. You don't have to pay attention to anything: suspend will work, WiFi will work, audio and speakers as well, if you need fractional scaling you aren't in for a world of pain, and if you want an NVidia dGPU, it does work.
Furthermore, the Windows 11 compatible CPU list is completely unofficial arbitrary, since you can still sideload Windows 11 on "unsupported" hardware and it will run with a far higher success rate than Linux on a random laptop you buy in store now. Like, it has been confirmed to run well on ancient Intel CPUs with screens below the minimum resolution. It's basically a skin over 10 and there are no significant kernel modifications.
To be clear: I don't like Windows, but I hate this post as a consumer of bleeding edge hardware because it hides the problem under the rug - most new hardware is Windows-centric, and Linux supported options are few and far between. Nowdays not even the manufacturer declaring Linux support is enough. This friend of mine got a Dell XPS 13 Plus Developer Edition, and if he uses ANY ISO except the default Dell-customized Ubuntu 20.04 audio doesn't work at all! And my other friend with a Dell XPS 13 Developer Edition has various GPU artifacts on the screen on anything except the relative Dell-customized Ubuntu 20.04 image. It's such a minefield.
I have effectively added €500 to my budget, to now reach an outrageous €2000 for a premium Linux laptop with no significant trade-offs (mostly, I want a good screen and good performance). I am considering taking a shot in the dark and pre ordering the Framework 16, effectively swaying from traditional laptop makers entirely and hoping a fully customized laptop by a company that has been long committed to Linux support will be different.
I've thrown Linux on every laptop I've ever owned, and a couple of family members laptops as well and the past 15 years and haven't encountered 1/10th of the issues they you have.
Complaining about broken suspend is funny because Microsoft basically killed S3 sleep in favour of the battery sucking S0. If anything it works better in Linux because you won't open up your laptop to find that Windows Update fucking ran in the background while it was sitting closed in your backpack and rebooted.
I think your issue might be more of an AMD issue. They have a long history of buggy mobile hardware even on Windows.
I mean hell I threw Fedora on to my Intel MacBook Pro and the only real annoyance I had was not being able to reliably disable the SPDIF light in the 3.5mm jack.
I'm currently using the non-linux version of the XPS 13 2-in-1 and my OS experience is actually the opposite of your friends. I can install any Linux ISO without issue, but the standard Win 11 ISO refuses to work because it can't detect any storage drives.
As far as daily driving Linux on it, the only things that don't work are the fingerprint reader and webcam. It's a bit of a piss off given that non-touchscreen version uses similar spec hardware that does support it but it doesn't really affect daily use.
Buy a framework. Only Linux issue is screen tearing on X11 with fractional scaling. Wayland is fine.
I've never had suspend work correctly on Linux. It's always been buggy in Windows as well. You can boot from SSDs about just as fast as waking from suspend, so I don't even try to use it anymore.
Linux does support more CPU architecture (x86 Arm PowerPC RISC) while Windows only support x86 and some Arm CPU so technically Linux support more CPU but Windows does support more GPU and Plug and Play devices (controller, external sound card...)
Windows 11 inherently does not support my CPU because of their fake secure boot requirement. You have to have UEFI.
I've had zero issues with any of my plug and play usb devices. Elgato key light, stream deck, fiio DAC, scarlet solo audio interface, Logitech Webcam, steel series arctis usb headset, etc. All work great without any faffing about.
For stream desk and keylight you aren't using elgato's software but there are pretty good open source options I installed from the graphical package manager in my OS. The audio stuff just all worked when plugged in. I'm missing zero functionality from windows and spent a lot less time "setting up" everything compared to windows.
I would probably rephrase it as "external plug 'n' play devices supporting Windows". You can be fairly certain Microsoft wasn't the one doing the work.
I've had way more plug-and-play success with USB-serial devices under Linux than Windows. Maybe just me though...
Even with x86 only, Linux supports more CPUs. For example, the Ryzen 5 1500x in my old PC isn't supported by Windows 11.
To be fair, Nvidia support on Linux has been historically quite poor, with users having to manually install drivers (something the average person shouldn't have to think about). Though even that has gotten much better recently, with Debian now allowing forks to have proprietary drivers built in.
I would say Nvidia historically (10+ years) had great support for Linux.
They were officially releasing drivers with feature parity to Windows. To get real manufacturer supported drivers, for a GPU none the less, was a breath of fresh air. This was in the era of having to be careful what wifi card you choose.
Sure, you had to manually install the drivers, which was not the norm with Linux, but that was still the case with Windows too. It wasn't until Windows 7 that "search for a driver" feature in Windows actually did something.
It's really only been recently, with AMD releasing official GPU drivers for the kernel, that things have changed. If you were putting a GPU in a Linux computer 10 years ago it absolutely would have been Nvidia.
By the way, Ubuntu and probably most Ubuntu-based distros (like Linux Mint) also have driver manager (ubuntu-drivers) that handles drivers similarly to the "search for driver" feature. Except that ubuntu-drivers also let's you select between multiple drivers and let's you easily uninstall them.
Don't you have to do that anyway if you install Windows yourself?
More important IMO is the fact that Linux re-detects hardware on every boot! Try moving a Windows hard drive to completely new hardware and getting it to boot. Not a chance...
Well, more like 7 onwards. XP was quite hit and miss unless you did a load of prep first.
Yup. though for GPU drivers you'll need to cleanly reinstall them if you downloaded them separately from windows update (which is a requirement for most gaming GPU users)
At least on linux its [insert distro command here] and it'll have your new drivers up and running for you without bloatware
Active directory and it's integration with services such as DNS and DHCP is pretty great though. I wish Microsoft started focusing less on cloud and improved the user (or rather admin) experience of their server tools, they are quite awful is some cases.
I swear to god most of Windows Server’s tools have barely changed since NT 4.0
And sometimes they make a new tool that's better, kinda. And then they never bother updating it to make it good. Looking at you AD admin center.
GPedit is the most annoying tool ever. Why the hell can't I just edit GPO settings values from the active settings menu, without having to open the entire GPO and navigate the huge mess of settings.
AD is the easiest in Windows. We can argue about DNS, but DHCP? You can't even change the subnet size after the fact without destroying and remaking the scope.
I know hardware compatibility has massively improved, but back when I was messing with Linux in high school compatibility was a huge issue.
I managed to end up with two laptops and some desktop hardware that were truly difficult to get running. It's like I somehow found a list of incompatible hardware and chose the worst options.
The most frustrating were an evil Broadcom (I think) wireless card and an AMD switchable card (they did actually make a few).
That graphics card wasn't supported for very long and was a bother even in Windows.
Edit to add: I was just saying that to point out why some people might have that opinion, even if it isn't valid anymore. I'm actually thinking of jumping back on the Linux bandwagon.
The only real hardware problems I come across these days with Linux is WiFi cards being shit. As far as I'm concerned, carefully selecting hardware is a problem for the *BSDs at this point. Am I missing something?
Yep, really new hardware is still an issue.
My new Zenbook (AMD CPU/GPU) had pretty major issues until the chip family was around a year old.
Previous to this laptop, I always got older hardware when it went on sale (usually from Dell), chip sets and CPU's that have had a while to "mature" I never had any issues with. Except of course with Nvidia drivers, those are always shit.
If you stick with older hardware, you very likely wouldn't ever experience hardware issues.
I've been running various distributions at my primary OS since around 2006. Hardware support these days is amazing.
People say that Nvidia just doesn't work right on Linux. I'd never know that except for everyone saying it. My desktop has Nvidia and all Linux distro I've tried on it are like perfectly fine. Yes for gaming also.
Congrats, You've been blessed with good luck.
Doesnt invalidate other people (like me) who have had tons of trouble with trying to get nvidia cards working/nvidia drivers installed over the years. Even with new distros that bake the drivers in, like Pop!, I still had issues and and headaches that ultimately made it not worth the effort.
What card do you run? I went from a 970 to a 3080ti and both drivers just automagically worked. The 970 used to have dkms issues but it randomly stopped at some point.
It's a combination of Nvidia not supporting mixed refresh rates and mixed DPIs until like really recently and the open source driver not being nearly as performant as the closed one.
I've been running Linux for 100% of my productive work since about 1995. Used to compile every kernel release and run it for the hell of it from about 1998 until something like 2002 and work for a company that sold and supported Linux servers as firewalls and file servers etc.
I had used et4000's, S3 968's and trio 64's, the original i740, Matrox g400's with dual CRT monitors and tons of different Nvidia GPU's throughout the years and hadn't had a whole lot of trouble.
The Nvidia Linux driver made me despair for desktop Linux for the last few years. Not enough to actually run anything different, but it did seem like things were on a downward slide.
I had weird flashing of sections of other windows when dragging a window around. Individual screens that would just start flashing sometimes. Chunky slideshow window dragging when playing video on another screen. Screens re-arranging themselves in baffling orientations after the machine came back from the screen being locked. I had crap with the animation rate running at 60hz on three 170hz monitors because I also had a TV connected to display network graphs ( that update once a minute ). I must have reset up the panels on cinnamon, or later on KDE a hundred times because they would move to another monitor, sometimes underneath a different one or just disappeared altogether when I unlocked the screen. My desktop environment at home would sometimes just freeze up if the screen was DPMS blanked for more than a couple of hours requiring me to log in from another machine and restart X. I had two different 6gb 1060's and a 1080ti in different machines that would all have different combinations of these issues.
I fixed maybe half of the issues that I had. Loaded custom EDID on specific monitors to avoid KDE swapping them around, did wacky stuff with environment variables to change the sync behaviour, used a totally different machine ( a little NUC ) to drive the graphs on the TV on the wall.
Because I had got bit pretty hard by the Radeon driver being a piece of trash back in something like 2012, I had the dated opinion that the proprietary Nvidia driver was better than the Radeon driver. It wasn't til I saw multiple other folks adamant that the current amdgpu driver is pretty good that I bought some ex-mining AMD cards to try them out on my desktop machines. I found out that most of the bugs that were driving me nuts were just Nvidia bugs rather than xorg or any other Linux component. KDE also did a bunch of awesome work on multi monitor support which meant I could stop all the hackery with custom EDIDs.
A little after that I built a whole new work desktop PC with an AMD GPU ( and CPU FWIW ) . It has been great. I'm down from about 15 annoying bugs to none that I can think of offhand running KDE. It all feels pretty fluid and tight now without any real work from a fresh install.
I have an nvidia discrete GPU in my laptop. It works fine.
I think that's probably a bit of misunderstanding. Nvidia doesn't work right in gamescope due to some missing vulkan extensions. Linux gaming is primarily focused around using gamescope as a compositor, specifically with gaming focused distros. You can see where the idea comes from following that trend.
I want to use Linux at the desktop, but I want HDR and Freesync support. Not sure if Linux supports either in a big way.
Freesync yes, HDR soon™
Freesync and any vrr for that matter is supported on Wayland and X.org.
HDR is supported on sway and some other compositors, but I don't think there is too much adoption from apps yet
VRR only works on Xorg if you only have 1 screen. And XWayland is broken on Nvidia.
Linux OSes have always been the ones to run on everything lol, it took Microsoft like a decade to make Windows run on ARM
Which is weird because WinNT 4.0 had several CPU architecture ports. Then MSFT dropped them all for only x86.
Linux has better support for the long tail of hardware. Windows has better support for bleeding-edge hardware. The main reason for this is money.
Except for my AMD 1800x that was 4 years old when W11 launched and not supported.
I hate to break it to you but 4 years old is nowhere close to “bleeding edge” when it comes to PC hardware.
It's also not obsolete.
That’s kind of my point. Linux supports it, but Windows doesn’t anymore. Why? Money - OEMs aren’t selling them anymore, so why spend time to support new features on them? On the flip side, the heterogeneous chiplet structure of the 7950X3D was supported on Windows from day 1, while on Linux the scheduler is still unaware of the different perf characteristics to this day. Why? Same answer - money. AMD doesn’t make money selling 7950X3D on Linux, so they’re not going to spend time writing a kernel driver to optimize perf on it.
You get to choose between hardware dependency hell and software dependency hell these days.
Why not both!
This is Windows 7 users. I just can't understand them. Why use an old os for the feel and look of it when you can just use Linux and customize it to your liking. ( I know, I know software compability and such. )
I've used Linux on my private laptop for the past few years, never had any major issues. Work desktop is running Ubuntu, no major problems except for the odd bit of poorly maintained software (niche science things, so that's not really a Linux issue). Laptop breaks, I get a Windows 11 laptop from work...and I've had so many problems. Updates keep breaking everything, and I've had to do a factory reset more than once since the recovery after those updates also always failed. Wish I had my good old Linux laptop back :(
Hell, i personally run into MORE issues on windows than linux which is why in 2020 when proton became pretty big news i made the final switch and have not looked back. I use windows in my work laptop cause work makes me, other than that i dont touch windows based systems and i live with more stability running mint.
Windows 11 and its goddamn picky-ass CPU requirements... What the actual fuck, Microsoft? Did someone over there drink a tall glass of stupid juice and think, "Hey, let's royally piss off a chunk of our user base just because we can?" This is tech elitism at its absolute shittiest.
It’s like Microsoft's throwing a party, and instead of a guest list, they've got some half-baked, cockamamie CPU blacklist. "Oh, you're rocking a perfectly functional CPU from a few years ago? Tough titties! Go fuck yourself with a USB stick!"
This isn't progress; it’s goddamn techno-discrimination. It's like being invited to a buffet and then being told you can only eat if your fork is from the latest silverware collection. I mean, who's making these decisions over there? A drunk leprechaun playing darts with a list of CPUs?
Look, I get wanting to advance, to push the boundaries of what's possible. But this? It's like serving someone a gourmet meal and then punching them in the gut for not having the right kind of fucking taste buds.
Windows 11, with its bizarre-ass CPU criteria, is a masterclass in how to cock up a product launch. Dear Microsoft, next time you decide to drop a steaming turd of a decision on your users, at least have the decency to hand out some goddamn air fresheners, because this shit STINKS.
I have found Linux to have excellent HW support for all older hardware. Only notable exception is fingerprint readers. Granted, it's been years since I tried gaming.
Isn't the CPU support reason solely specific to a new feature Windows 11 was going to use, and you can just use Windows 10 while it's still in support? Plus Windows 10 knows this and won't even try to update your PC to windows 11?
It's not a really strong argument when most hardware drivers are made with Windows in mind first, and maybe someone is going to write up a Linux driver if they're interested. I mean Linux went for years having to do some hack&slash solution to broadcom drivers until they were finally added in. That affected at least 2 laptops in my lifetime.
I will stop to say that currently, I think Linux is in a good spot. But you can't just pretend the issue absolutely doesn't exist because your specific setup works.
I don't think people are pretending Linux is perfect. More people than expected though, are simping for windows despite the fact that the money and energy spent on it truly ought to have led to a better product than what we got.
I officially switched my desktop and server to Linux. If I could switch my work computer I would. I bought a MacBook Air recently because I didn’t know Linux laptops were getting so popular. But I like the Mac and can still do some Linux like stuff in the terminal.
Yall miss the point. Im guessing willfully. No average desktop user wants to be forced to use command line to do anything.
Linux will never see mainstream desktop usage.
My mom is in her 70s, never has been techy, and has been using Linux as her daily driver for a solid eight years now. I have to do less troubleshooting for her now that she's on Linux than I ever did when she used Windows. "You have to use the command line" is an extremely outdated criticism of desktop Linux.
Yup. I got relatives started on Mint dual booted with Windows. They don't use Windows as Linux just works.
I've been using various distros for the past 6 months trying to find the right fit for my work. I do remote desktop support of many windows based enterprises.
I use Linux desktop every single day for 8 hours. I also play games of all sorts.
KDE neon was what I had when I started out and it was great. Zero problems. There's no reason you'd ever need CLI in plasma desktop that I can see.
Fedora/plasma is a no go. Too complex with selinux and you really do need to know what you're doing. Still quite usable for 90% of day to day
For the past month I've been on mint 21 and have had zero issues and zero CLI time.
Been enjoying baldurs gate 3 out of the box, using outlook, teams, various browsers and whatnot. Not going to give a comprehensive list here, but everything works perfectly and almost everything has been installed straight from the software manager.
I've installed ZorinOS on a non tech savvy friends computer so she could get more life out of her old laptop and she was fine without using any terminal
The average Linux distro doesn’t need to use command line for anything. Literally just click on Firefox or google chrome and you’re done lol.
As for gamers, if you take 5 hours to mod games but cant learn to use CLI for 5 minutes then idk what to tell you chief. Though right now it won’t be mainstream because devs don’t want to update their anti cheats for Linux, not because of compatibility
The whole “waste time, value freedom” super duper complexity shit is just propaganda regurgitated by people who heard about Linux through a game of telephone, Hollywood, and YouTube videos. That’s not to say the Linux community is very good at marketing or giving troubleshooting suggestions for tech illiterate people
GUI alternatives are constantly improving and becoming more visually pleasing throughout distros, and besides, there's real scenarios where normal people HAVE to use Powershell or CMD to get stuff done on Windows. This is becoming less and less of a hurdle.
It wasn't always the case. Windows 3x gui had to be started from a dos prompt. But this anti cli sentiment swings both ways for all OS's.
The bigger issue I have though is a general unwillingness to learn how to do things beyond click icons for apps. Devices now are engineered to be as simple as possible. Which ya, for most people is fine. But these devices in turn are generally way more challenging to fix. So it encourages just buying a new one instead. Creating more ewaste for something that should be easier to fix, all because of software, or physical assembly.
I think you're right. For the average desktop user, it's more about being able to use the software they need, without a terminal.
I think that desktop in linux has advanced a lot in the last few years, and now I'm running my games on a KDE desktop, too! But I keep having to go to the terminal to do stuff I took for granted on other systems, like OS security updates.
What OS security updates are you doing from the terminal?
The linux developers have done an awesome job and linux has come so far it's amazing. But for the vast majority of computer users they don't even know what a terminal is, period, and linux is useless to them unless a Linux user sets it up for them for a very specific use case and that's all they ever do with it.
If all they want is an email and web appliance, a typical computer ignorant user can use linux if it is given to them by someone else.
Yet an ignorant computer user can go and buy a Mac or a windows machine from a retailer and get the job done without having to know anything at all other than they want a computer for x y or z.
Its like the linux developers can't fathom a PC experience without the terminal as a vital participant.
Its like the linux developers can’t fathom a PC experience without the terminal as a vital participant.
That's not wrong. I'm now struggling to do things on Windows without the terminal. Thinking in terms of commands and processes and files is a great way to do computing. Learning all that stuff has a payoff and it genuinely is difficult to imagine trying to get by without knowing it. Once you do know it you reach for it all the time.
I think an issue is that people tend to think of Linux as meaning "all distributions." So if something is compatible with X distro version yy.zz, the general idea is "it's compatible with Linux." This, in my experience, is one of the things that leads to mandatory command-line usage --- it definitely is possible to get it to work under a different flavor of Linux, but it's not necessarily easy if you're uncomfortable with a command line.
Another is drivers --- if it's mainlined, it will Just Work, but if it's not...well, it may work, but you might have to jump through hoops and get busy with the command line.
In short: if you view your distro the same way you view a particular Windows release, then I really don't think you need the command line for desktop Linux. But you need to accept that some software isn't "compatible," in the above, user-friendly sense of the word.
There is no such operating system as Linux, but there are operating systems built on top of the kernel called Linux. In other words, Linux (a kernel) is not an alternative to Windows (an operating system), but a specific Linux-based OS could be.
IMO it would help if we stopped pretending that Linux is an operating system unto itself and started promoting the actual operating systems that are built on Linux. I see people in this thread arguing over whether "Linux" is user-friendly or not and it's meaningless because they aren't actually talking about Linux, but rather some unspecified thing that runs on top of Linux, and may not even be talking about the same thing.
You can use Ubuntu and Zorin just fine without the terminal.
I'd love to switch to Linux. I've used Linux off and on for almost two decades now. At one point I was triple booting Windows XP, Windows 7, and Fedora. The one thing holding me back is, strangely enough, game compatibility. I know Proton has made huge strides as I've seen it first hand on the Steam Deck, a lovely little machine. The problem is, I have a huge library, and while I'm okay with slightly less than ideal performance here and there on the Deck (40hz mode anyone?), I absolutely refuse to lose any performance due to running Linux. Benchmarks still show some titles losing 5-15% performance when running through Proton.
Don't get me wrong. I love FOSS. I donate and try to spread the word as much as I can when I find a passion project, and find it particularly useful. Even though this may seem to go against what I previously said, I'm debating on switching to Linux when Windows 10 loses support. I do not want to enable fTPM on my motherboard or update my BIOS if I don't have to. My PC is stable, no thank you. I feel like I'll have to troubleshoot whether I choose Linux or Windows 11. Ugh.
You haven't tried it recently. Every game I play works flawlessly and is just as good or you can't tell vs windows. I've been back and forth for 20 years and now I'm 100% and have been since February. I love it, and I'm happy to have my OS be my OS and do what I want it to do.
Now, to be somewhat fair, I built my new PC with the plan to go Linux. I went team red and a single ultra wide monitor. I wasn't sure about the single monitor at all at first but now, man I love it. I have it setup so when I hit the windows key I can pick a new desktop. The only thing I can't do is watch video's while I play games and it doesn't bother me at all.
Seriously though, outside of work I kicked windows out of my house in 2020 and haven't needed to go back. To be fair, my job doesn't have any software requirements that would tether me to windows, but the gaming performance this year has been nearly flawless for the majority of my library, beyond anticheat some games actually run better on linux when you consider the reduced overhead in a lighter distro
God forbids you ever have to run a game with two or three frames per second less than on Windows. The horror! /s
Joking aside, DRM is the actual roadblock. And it's not even Linux's fault. Just stubbornness and lack of will from developers. Even then, it's just a handful of AAA online games. For some, like me, it has zero effect in my enjoyment of games as I don't play online competitive games. Every other piece in my library actually runs better on Linux no matter how old it is. As Wine/Proton holds a better backwards compatibility than windows 10. Games that no longer run on windows still run on a modern fully specced Linux. No hassle involved. And some modern games actually run as fast or better than on windows nowadays.
Benchmarks also highlight a number of titles actually performing better under Linux than native Windows, especially where Vulkan is concerned. My gaming performance under Linux is fantastic, the advancements in the last five years alone have been astounding.
A good linux distro(32 bit if needed) will run a lot faster!
There's not a lot of things that stupid people can say, that would genuinely frustrate me, but when you make uneducated, factless statements, and then decide to fanboy about something in the same sentence, that genuinely frustrates me
Just so we are clear, are you hating on Linux or windows fan boys?
I'll probably transition my AMD 8350 build over to Linux when Win10 stops being supported. As opposed to my mom's FX-8370 build, which I'll probably just have to replace with a new Windows 11 system, as there's no way I'm expecting her (an elderly woman) to learn anything other than Windows. Especially since she's reliant on Windows-only apps.
The actual hardware she's using will probably be converted to a Linux Desktop, but I'll have to migrate her data to a new mini Windows 11 PC or something.
I know someone (86 yeard old) that never had a computer before her mid-70s. I built her several Xubuntu machines over the years, and she manages getting online, social media, e-mail and solitaire games just fine.
She didn't need much teaching from me at all. And it goes without saying that support requests are very rare and I've never had to reinstall her system because of some malware ate her files.
Oh, another Linux circlejerk. Man I like my Debian but this stuff is so obnoxious…
I guess I don't see it as a circle jerk. It seems more that there are a bunch of windows fans that haven't tried Linux in the last 5 or 10 years (or ever) trying to convince the Linux community that Linux has a bunch of pitfalls and shortcomings that we don't seem to run into.
I try using Linux on my desktop PC from time to time. Whenever I buy a new rig, I try Linux, as I want to reinstall the system anyway. It never worked. I always tried with brand new hardware -> something is not properly supported -> install current windows. Rinse and repeat every 4 or 5 years whenever I get my hand on a new desktop or laptop. That never changed for the last 20 years.
You are doning it wrong. Whenever I buy new hardware, I read up on linux support before. Formated my last windows partition at home 5 years ago.
when you say "something is not properly supported" what do you mean? like nvidia/amd haven't released graphics drivers yet for linux? or some peripheral isn't recognized?
basically, by buying new hardware just after it launches, you're effectively one of the very first people to boot that hardware with linux. you can usually make it work but most hardware manufacturers don't work with the linux devs to make sure support is in place. so devs have to get ahold of the hardware retail and then fix whatever is broken. the exception to this is AMD and Intel - both companies have people working on linux so they will merge support for new hardware into the kernel before that new hardware is even announced to the public. so if you stick to cpus and video cards from those two manufacturers, you'll make your linux life easier.
even then, though, the support might exist in the latest version of the kernel, but the last Ubuntu or Mint release is still several versions behind. so you're effectively forced to use a distro that releases updates much faster (ie rolling release), or be willing to make modifications to the system post-install to get it to work.
tl;dr: you've got a constellation of requirements that can't all be met at the same time. either give it 3 to 6 months after release of new hardware or be willing to learn how to make it work. expecting software to work with hardware it hasn't yet been designed to work with is always going to be a recipe for failure.
Just the other day I was posting complaining about a thing I was trying to do that should have been simple but Linux made really hard for some reason. Still prefer it to Windows tbh.
The other day, I dug out an old scanner to use. No mac drivers ever and no Win10 drivers. Worked on my Mint laptop with no drivers to install.
Oh, that's why I moved from W10. My audio card refused to work with this OS. The solution: go back to W8.1 which I just skipped as hell. I could never get rid of that problem in W10, BSOD as soon as it rebooted into W10. No matter what I tried, couldn't debug the problem. Fuck it, Linux may be complicated, but at least you end up knowing what's going on. I can't go back to not knowing.
The company I work at only works with windows Servers
I could never go back to Windows, after having tasted the freedom of Linux.
Linux has its flaws, but so does Windows. And for me, the flaws in Windows became much more annoying than the ones in Linux. Game compatibility was the main factor that kept me backt from using it on a desktop, and that's a non issue nowadays.
Steam+Proton is pretty impressive. I can play Baldur's Gate 3 on my Thelio. Does get a little toasty, though ....
Flaws I didn't pay for piss me off a lot less.
I'm still dualbooting Windows to play games with a controller until I can get off my ass and buy a USB hub. Reason being that the Xbox Series controllers has issues with my mobo's Bluetooth chipset, even when updating the firmware. Bluetooth support is particularly inconsistent with these.
But outside of the odd app that needs Windows (and I can just boot a VM for that), Linux has been really good on the desktop.
I invested in an Icy Box IB-AC6110 powered 10 port usb hub a while ago too, but it is more for additional controllers, specifically joysticks and the likes. Mainboards just don't have enough USB ports for all that. Dual sticks or a hotas? Two gone. Maybe some pedals? Now it is 3. How about a camera and a head tracker? Well, 4-5 depending on your product solution. Defo gives me some peace of mind to be good on USB ports.
For me it's the basic things that drive me crazy in Windows: the Start menu doesn't work half of the time, and it shows web results above the program you want to run. File operations are slow and the File Explorer crashes a lot. Application windows constantly steal focus from the one I'm typing in, leading to passwords being typed into code, documents, web browsers or other unsafe places. Background indexing is constant and eats up CPU, and the file search still takes forever despite all this indexing.
These are all basic things that Microsoft has had decades to get working, and they're all still broken. Microsoft always seem to be paying attention to anything but the quality of the user's experience.
By contrast, Linux is just relaxing.
Man that MS indexing is so terrible. I shut it off because it was robbing my system when trying to work, and as you said it is slow anyway. Compared to GNOME desktop where the indexing is invisible to user, I hit the Suoer key type a few letters it instantly shows me results as you would expect indexing to work.
Mine is VST’s and games. Never had much luck using a vst bridge/wine, so i just went back to windows.
I always see people say this but does no one here use professional apps like solidworks or revit? Are there good Linux alternatives? I’d switch to Linux but I need solidworks for work I do.
Windows is the defacto standard for desktop PCs for a reason. In a corporate setting it's kind of the ideal.
Because of the sheer number of users, most software is built with Windows in mind and therefore has the most support. It's pretty rare that you find an application that doesn't have a Windows build available.
On top of that tools like Active Directory, and group policy makes managing thousands of machines at scale a reasonably simple affair.
Microsoft is a corporation rather than a community so you can always expect their main goals to be profit-driven and that comes with some nasty baggage, but it's not enough that it's easy for professionals to make the switch.
Linux has made lightspeed progress over the last decade, especially with Proton making games mostly work cross platform, but outside of specialist use cases, the vast majority of business PCs and by extension home PCs will be running Windows for the foreseeable future.
The popularity of Windows is largely due to the fact it's pre installed on most PC's when you buy them, people literally think Windows 'is the computer'. Such popularity has little to do with Windows being a great OS. In many ways Windows is like McDonalds: It's not the best, it's not the worst, it just fills that hump in the bell curve.
Due to the fact Linux has no marketing department, it's unlikely this will ever change.
I work in software and I haven’t touched windows in a very long time. Even back whenever I worked on FPGA development all of that software ram on Linux, so I think you’ll find that this is very field dependent.
Closest thing I use to a professional app is DaVinci Resolve Studio on a distribution that is not officially supported by Blackmagic. Not only does Resolve Studio work perfectly, I am able to use Blackmagic hardware (Intensity Pro 4k, Speed Editor) without having to mess around with settings, config files, permissions, packages, etc.
The caveat here is the initial setup: I use an AMD GPU, and it’s a bit of a pain to get the free and licensed versions of Resolve working with those under Linux. However, once that’s out of the way, it’s completely seamless.
As for CAD…yeah that’s where everything falls over. There are tons of FOSS alternatives out there but I have yet to see any of them in a professional setting. Even Fusion360 is hit or miss under Wine, I spun up a Windows VM just to use that for my 3D printer tinkering.
Enough with the fan wars. Let's be perfectly honest for once. Windows, Linux, MacOS - they all suck. Sometimes in similar ways, sometimes in different ways. But they all suck.
Windows users - I get you, you use it because it sorta works 40%, of the time and sucks in the way you understand.
Linux users - I get you, you know all of the arcane incantations you need to quickly install, update, and troubleshoot your os in a terminal window. It works - once you apply your custom bash script that applies every change you need to get everything exactly how you like it. But again, it sucks in the way you understand.
MacOS users - well I don't really get you. You know what you've done.
We deserve better than this, guys. We deserve an os that just works, is easy to use, easy to configure, doesn't require an IT degree to use, and that we can recommend to our grandma without a second thought.
TempleOS satisfies all of these conditions
Okay, this quote from the Wikipedia page made me laugh.
I laughed hard on this one hahahahaha
Probably an unpopular opinion on here, but the OS I recommend for grandparents and parents is ChromeOS. It's so locked down that it's almost indestructible, and they almost never need any specialized software that you'd use Windows/MacOS for. If you're savvy enough you can also use Linux on it in a container, which is how I prefer to use it for day to day stuff (in my case, data related workflows).
No that's fair. It just assumes that everything you'll ever need is on a browser, which in the case of grandparents, is probably true.
I would just um....never tell them about the Android app store because that can get real messy real quick.
Yep. I'm in IT, so every time my parents' computer "does something weird," I get a call. Bought them Chromebooks a few Christmases ago and the calls have all but stopped.
Macbooks just make really nice ssh terminals for accessing your Linux dev environment. Though these days there are decent options for Linux terminals with a similar form factor, they just don't tend to be much cheaper.
I think that something like 20% of what's keeping me using Mac is iTerm2's integration with ‘tmux -CC‘
It kinda felt like you were gonna break into song about the Year of the BSD Desktop for a second there!
macOS is BSD-based—so technically that’s been true for about 22 years
Originally but afaik they rewrote basically the whole OS over the years and nothing of the original BSD remains. That's what I heard but I never verified.
When I worked as a IT Tech at a University years ago we had a lot of MacOS users who believed they could just pick it up and use it like their iPhone. It was absurd how well their marketing worked because those users either forced themselves to learn it or dropped it and went back to Windows.
I know a lot of iOS users who have iPads and iPhones but still have windows PCs because they don't have to worry about compatibility issues.
I know you made a joke about MacOS, but I am genuinely interested with what issue you have of it.
It sucks in the way you understand and know because nothing else even exists. No one is interested in having to cater to their walled garden unless there's money to be made. Meanwhile both Linux and Windows have many open source projects and hobbyists working on things. So you might get a mac driver for something you buy but most of the time macos is an afterthought at best in many hobby projects. Also lol mac gaming is a joke. Even Linux is getting better support now than macos in that regard since the Steamdeck.
Yeah it was just a joke because I love to piss off the MacOS guys. But its like a brotherly teasing. Like, I love you guys, but I gotta rib you, you know.
I think Apple's biggest sin is that everything works as long as all of your hardware, software, and co-workers have an apple emblazoned on their back. But the moment you have to work with anything or anyone that doesnt use Apple, you have problems. And Apple seems to encourage this because it gets their users to dread working with Windows or Linux users.
The sad thing is that I like a lot of their software. But using their OS is like having Steve Jobs standing over your shoulder and smacking you on the head when you try to shift outside of their intended workflow. I keep running into situations where Windows and Linux would let me go left or right (after finding a hidden and misnamed switch or running a well researched and crafted bash command), and MacOS just put a roadblock on the left because fuck you we said no.
I know that my ideal of a perfect OS is unrealistic. MacOS is more stable because it's more rigid. Windows and Linux prove that the more flexible you are, the harder it is to use. But settling for one option and looking down at everyone who chose different isn't going to help. We should all keep criticising our chosen option and root for others that are criticising their own. Because it seems like Apple, Microsoft, and the Open Source community are all in a rut, safely ignoring basic fucking usage issues because of an implicit assumption that their user base isn't going anywhere.
I live in a mixed OS household. My wife and I both use windows and Apple machines for various purposes (my wife's work requires both, my mac is just for dabbling) and I have some linux boxes for streaming or storage or whatever. And while that gives me the benefits of all three, I also have to deal with the problems of all three. And its a lot, guys. Not to mention they all refuse to work together.
This is a pointless argument even saying that everyone sucks, linux runs worse on the desktop because it doesn't get even 1/10th the investment from consumer hardware manufacturers compared to windows or mac to make it compatible. nevertheless linux is undoubtedly less difficult and more efficient to integrate than windows, for example the steam deck is done very well but it could be done better since KDE, wayland and arch do not have the same number of employees as microsoft.
It depends. It could also be a better idea to introduce a sort of "IT driver's license" for everyone to have basic understanding/skills to use their devices. Sure, modern software stacks are ridiculously complex and no one understands every detail down to each machine code/assembly instruction, so there's always a big amount of abstraction or simplification needed, but I don't think it's a good idea to request that someone with literal zero knowledge whatsoever should be able to perfectly use an OS or device. That's also not even possible. I see it with my mother, she started from zero knowledge but she had to learn some basics to be able to do the few things she needs to do. Of course she uses Linux. No prior Windows knowledge means a much easier start with Linux of course. She wouldn't have been able to use Windows either with zero knowledge. So this is a point that some forget: even Windows users need knowledge to be able to use Windows, and they probably already earned that knowledge in much earlier years. This Windows knowledge also works against you building up Linux (or even OS X) knowledge because Windows works quite differently from a Unix-like OS. This is not irrelevant: a Windows user who spent like 30 years in Windows has a much harder time learning Linux, than someone who didn't have that. But, again, not really the fault of Linux that you indoctrinated yourself with Windows-only MS product specific knowledge over the last decades. This is probably the biggest problem there is, because almost everyone on the planet has already acquired some amount of Windows knowledge in the past. This works against you when trying to switch. Windows knowledge is mostly Windows-specific. When learning about IT, you should make sure that you learn things in a preferably OS agnostic way. Which is also the reason why schools etc. should never teach "using MS products". They should always teach fundamentals, irrelevant of what you use afterwards. And those fundamentals should of course not be taught using commercial products, but rather open source software.
Then there are some fantasies which MS and Apple could establish in the broader population which aren't true, for example that CLI/terminal usage is archaic and has no place on modern desktops anymore. CLI usage will always remain as a fast alternative to a lot of tasks which are hard or even impossible to do via GUI. Even MS has realized this and introduced Powershell, a new terminal, and winget, for example. As well as WSL (which was originally and still mostly is being used to have access to powerful Linux-based CLI utilities). Yet still a lot of people seem to think that CLI is obsolete or that it's "hard". Sure, if you do some scripting or complex one-liners, it can be too hard for someone without strong IT knowledge. But most commands are really basic and easy to understand. Even my mother is able to use basic commandline utilities, and she even prefers it sometimes over clicking around in the GUI. To claim that this is impossible or too hard to learn for a Windows user is, I don't know. At least untrue. Probably even an insult to your own intelligence. And the main reason why most Linux users suggest doing things via commandline is that this is an almost distro- and desktop-independent way of doing things.
Also, not a big fan of the "fan" label here. Regardless of whether or not you like Linux (I like Linux as an OS more than Windows, because I think the Unix-way is better, but it's also about so much more), I see a neutral, free/libre open source (FLOSS) operating system as the base for our digital lives as a necessity, and so I see Windows or OS X as intrinsically worse. I don't see it as a kind of war between different products on equal footing. One product denies you any rights and control (and in more recent times, also extracts even more value and data from you than just the price you paid for the license to use it), and one that gives you full rights and control (and pretty much never extracts any more from you). It's not OK that we use our devices for so many things in life nowadays, that all aspects of your life are being done via digital means nowadays, and yet the most popular operating systems are still 100% proprietary black boxes fully controlled by big US companies. This needs to change, and it should have happened a long time ago already. And Linux is simply the most mature and most well supported FLOSS operating system out of all of them. I actually wouldn't care if it would be FreeBSD or OpenBSD or whatever instead, but I see Linux as being the most mature, well-supported and mainstream-viable option here. I only care that it's not a damn black box I don't have any real control over.
We need (almost) everyone on such open technologies like Linux, because the future (or even present) for Windows users looks like this: no control, no privacy (plus AI being trained on your work/data as well), big vulnerability when (not if) MS gets hacked (and they're a huge, juicy target, and we already saw them being compromised twice in the last couple of years), pricey subscription to MS' services which continues to get pricier once you're successfully vendor-locked-in (once all your servers, desktops and data is in MS' cloud, you won't be able to easily leave their services anymore, so they are free to increase prices until it hurts you). Even if you happen to like the offering MS gives you, does that really seem like "the future" of computing to you? To me, that's backwards. Or mainframe history repeating itself. Moving into proprietary clouds with vendor-lock-in only really benefits the cloud provider, which is why they want all users to join the "party".
I'm not a big fan of Stallman in general, but his fundamental propositions e.g. that FLOSS software is intrinsically better than proprietary black boxes, is true. I wonder how long we still need as a society, to arrive at that realization. I assumed that the Snowden revelations as well as the desaster that Windows 10 was for privacy, would have already started a change in thinking about such things. But that probably wasn't enough (strangely). I'm not sure what else would need to happen, but I guess something like first MS shoving all their users into their cloud, and then MS being hacked (again) but this time with malicious auto-updates being pushed to all MS software users as well, impacting tons of businesses. Then, maybe, people will start thinking whether this was such a great idea to begin with to play along with what MS envisioned as the "grand future". Unfortunately I see parallels with the human behavior concerning climate change here as well. It's like we have to first destroy our climate and suffer the consequences, before we realize it's a bad idea and we should do it differently RIGHT NOW. We are just incredibly short-sighted and we only learn AFTER disasters, which were even announced long before. It's tragic.
And for those people who know or think they could start using Linux but still use Windows because it's more "aesthetically pleasing" or whatever else irrelevant aspect they make up to "justify" still staying on that sinking MS ship in 2023, please reconsider your priorities.
Windows: "We dropped support for that thing you bought brand new 5 years ago"
Linux: "We are considering dropping support for something that has existed for longer than you had"
Linux: “We're dropping support for this device because we're fairly sure we had the last one in existence and it just died.”
Hell, I can get a 30 year old HP LaserJet 4 printer working just fine on almost any version of Linux with the official HPLIP CLI software provided by (shockingly) HP, which was updated 2 months ago with support for over 50 new printers and the following OSes:
I HATE HP and their printers (PC LOAD LETTER WTF FOR LIFE) but I will admit that this is impressive support.
Gentoo: yeah I'll run on a potato if you tell me how to do it.
NetBSD: we already run on the potato, oh and that yam over there.
Still can't believe they dropped support for i386 😤
It's not even a matter of when. I was recently given an i7 6700K, and no game, old or new, comes close to fully using it, and it's not even overclocked. If anyone is in doubt about the requirement being artificial, try this CPU.
The windows 11 cpu requirement isn’t a requirement per se but a "it’s validated to work on this or newer". 6th gen Intel is no problem. Even 4th gen or older aren’t a problem, performance wise. The problem is the mandatory TPM 2.0 support. Intel CPUs only massively support that from 6th gen on and AMD CPUs even later (I think Zen 2). On some older boards you might have luck, especially if you buy a hardware TPM but my PC for example, running a i7 3770, only has a TPM 1.2 and no way to upgrade to 2.0. Now, there are ways to circumvent the need for a TPM all together on Win 11 but tbh, Win 10 installs perfectly well still on Hardware as old as Athlon 64 and in my experience even better than 11 anyways.
It's a requirement both on paper and in that, even though Microsoft document an official way to bypass it, they will warn you that they do not even guarantee security updates unless your CPU is supported. Moreover, we know of at least one game, Valorant, that will not work on Windows 11 unless you are meeting its hardware requirements. The bottom line is that installing Windows 11 is a risk.
I've worked exclusively with Linux servers since 2002 and exclusively Linux desktop since 2004 and I've come to the point where I prettyuch refuse to touch windows for fear it will infect me somehow.
I know most people don't know any better but it's insanity to me that anyone still pays money for windows. It's a scam, no other words for it.
Don't even get me started on Windows servers. It's just sad to see how much money is spent on a company that has so litte focus on quality.
Even the online services suck. Dear God Microsoft, would it kill you to understand that people might have gasp TWO tabs open with your teams "app"?
Even azure runs Linux
To think that even daedric prince would do that.
I guess I pay for the convenience that I get when I buy a new game, simply press Install and start playing. I spend most of my free time playing games on PC, I have no other reasons to stick to Windows. I'll happily switch to Linux on the day when every new release works with no extra problems, tinkering, waiting or searching caused by my choice of OS.
This is going to sound selfish, but I don't have the "energy" of fighting against whatever the current meta is - I just have to appreciate the more invested people that drive Linux forward. I'll just follow and use the OS where I get the smoothest overall experience for gaming (including thing like mouse/kb driver support). Windows is the current answer for this, one day it'll be something else - hopefully Linux.
Shit's been progressing really fast recently - I guess Steam Deck is doing some heavy lifting when it comes to motivating developers to keep Linux in mind. Direct support will always give the best results for everyone.
Let me give you an honest answer that no Linux users is willing to give you (certainly because they fear to scare people off of Linux): you will never see the day where Linux will be equal if not better than Windows for gaming (which it can be sometimes, but it's not always the case) if not a certain amount of people get out of their comfort zone and are willing to try something new. In fact, nobody can improve anything in their life if they're not willing to get out of their comfort zone.
You're already using a PC to play video games, I did this choice too, so trust me, you definitely have the energy to change for a better OS, something ever you recognize as having qualities outside of games. Otherwise, you would've played exclusively on console where you actually have a plug and play experience... unfortunately at the cost of your freedom to use the machine you bought however you want, besides all the other considerable disadvantages.
For me, Linux made as much progress as it can do, meaning now, for Linux to be viable for gaming, either companies start to move their asses and make Linux native games (which they can easily do, if they're willing to use the right tools for their game like Vulkan) but I hardly see that coming any time soon, or new users have to come to Linux so that companies would finally care. Personally, I made my choice by making the first step.
Games don't always run perfectly under Windows on release either.
I specifically remember one of the CoD games running just long enough to use up all my vram, whereby it would promotly crash. Took about about two weeks to sort that one out.
My tinkering under Linux consists of downloading a game under Steam, ticking a compatibility checkbox, and playing the game. For other launchers, I simply open Bottles and install the launcher of my choosing. Been playing Diablo 4 under Battle.net just fine since launch.
It blows my mind just how bad file system performance is under Windows compared to Linux. I mean, you literally have to have an SSD in order for the OS to be responsive. Granted, most have SSD's these days, but performance on spinning rust shouldn't be that bad.
Yes, it's definitely getting close now...
I've used Linux since about 2004 for personal use. On my homer server(s) and desktop. 95% of them Gentoo (stable). For my relatives I've installed some EL workstation distro. Especially my father needs a install-and-forget system, which Windows isn't.
But I do install and fix Windows PCs at my work. It's because how Windows works (or rather not work) I get paid. That said, the more I use Windows the more I get frustrated with it.
One of the worst things lately was the accidental activation of BitLocker. It got activated even when the user didn't have Microsoft account (from where he/she would retrieve the encryption key to decrypt the data if Windows decides to lock the drive). "Oh I'm sorry, but because M$ fuckup your data is gone. Do you have backups? 😇" To avoid any BitLocker issues the secure boot should be disabled. BitLocker shouldn't then be available for activation.
Some of the frustrating sides of Windows can be avoided by using Pro version of Windows. But that's simply not enough.
IMO the only reason to use (suffer from) Windows is if you play some games that require it.
My personal solution to that problem ist to not play those games. There's plenty of stuff to play on Steam that runs fine on Linux.
My tactic as well. 😉
It's the professional software that's lacking in Linux, and that's the only reason I keep a Windows machine around. For music production, video production, design work, photography and so on, Windows has good commercial software that is well established in these professions.
But for most people, including gamers, Linux is a very good option right now.
I recently setup a Windows vm for my mum because she also needs photo and video editing sw and isn't happy with the Linux alternatives. This works astonishingly well. Virtualbox even has a mode now to fully integrate the vm into the existing desktop, so basically she just gets the windows status bar in addition to the Linux one when she starts the vm. Windows programs open as if they were running natively. Might be worth a try for you.
Windows requirements: sprawling list of unsupported hardware based on an arbitrary requirment for a security chip that doesn't actually improve security at all
Linux: CPU (optional)
As a person who has used linux i can confirm that my daughter runs linux
I don't think microcontrollers count as CPU, right? Do they have an ALU?
Yes they do. Microcontrollers contain a microprocessor that is optimized for branching instructions and already include memory and peripheral interfaces which are connected directly to the processor bus (opposed to general purpose CPUs).
lmao, i've exclusively run linux on franken pcs cobbled together out of mostly second hand parts
Pop OS has native drivers for nVidia GPUs even 😎🐧
Correction: POP!_OS has their own APT deb farm that has the latest hardware stack. This includes the proprietary 535 nvidia driver and later as well as the kernel and mesa.
This is part of the history of the distribution as it was made to support system76's latest hardware lineup on top of an Ubuntu base.
Nouveau is the libre driver for Nvidia on GNU/Linux with Nvidia slowly segregating their proprietary driver into a firmware blob.
I think this is a bit misleading.
Most or at least the majority of distros offer the proprietary nvidia driver.
Pop, Zorin, Ubuntu, Garuda, etc just bundle it in the install media as an option.
The first thing I installed windows on was an discarded office tower that I had to put new memory And hard drives in. Shit was ancient and specifically did not want anything but windows installed on it. Installed Linux anyway. Works great. No specific hardware
Linux has always been my go to for that specific use case as well, and I honestly have very little Linux experience. Linux just makes bizarre half broken hardware, like bad ram, work.
I upgraded my Intel system to AMD today. And I didn't have to reinstall a damn thing, because my existing Linux installation Just Worked™. It really is to the point that I could never imagine going back to Windows.
CPU vendors are usually pretty seamless to swap on Winblows, other than the fact that Windows will possibly whine that you've modified your system too much and need a new license 🤓
I've encountered issues swapping a Windows install between machines equipped with an Intel processor to one equipped with a current AMD processor.
In the meantime, my KDE Neon install has been swapped between four different PC's now without a single issue.
Same, I've always had issues with swaps on Windows. Never a single one on Linux -- plus no chasing a license/activation.
If the MAC address changes, Windows activation will always fail. I just don't see any of that as worth the trouble anymore since The Windows Difference™ is just telemetry overhead and updates that need to happen while I'm trying to get something done.
I like Linux a lot, but saying you can't understand why someone would run Windows on a server just shows a lack of knowledge. Linux is great in a lot of server applications in the application realm. However, it doesn't get close to the power of Active Directory and Group Policy for Windows device management. Besides that, a lot of people are more comfortable with a UI for managing DHCP, DNA, etc in a SMB environment. Even if they prefer a command line for those tools PowerShell allows those people to coexist with those that prefer a GUI. Under certain circumstances, (mainly ones where a business is forgoing AD for AAD), Linux can be the right choice. Pretending that there's no place for Windows Server, though, is asinine.
This community is very much a "Windows bad" community. I personally find that annoying as I use Windows and Linux. Both have their pros and cons. Windows though is seen here as the shitest OS out there which far from the truth.
PowerShell is amazing and I install it on my Linux desktop.
The main problem are companies forcing windows servers and technologies when they are not the good ones for the task.
If one needs to set up desktops for accounting, windows is fine. But I saw companies setting shared NFS drives used by Linux severs on windows machines! Not joking!
I know companies that even deploy kubernetes clusters on windows servers!
Just because finding cheap windows engineers is easy, everyone has had an experience on windows to put on a cv. Than some of that cheap labor go up the hierarchy as head of a random infrastructure team because all good sys engineers moved to manage linux servers after some time, he recruits people like-minded, and in few years you ends up with a team refusing to do the right thing because "we know windows and windows can do the same as Linux and Microsoft is good for governance and Linux bad". Execs don't understand the difference and force architecture to go along because they don't believe it's worthy to rebuild a team, we are anyway using windows for accounting and execs laptops, it can't be that bad! Even accenture and mckinsey consultants us it! And they told us that wls2 is the holy grail
Corporate IT is the peak of suboptimal tools for the job because politics and money
We use both. Its not my department but i know the server guys are using windows for some servers and linux for others and the decision is normally made based on which is going to be best for the specific needs of the function of that server.
Pretending one is outright better than the other is childish. Just use whats best at the time.
There's this thing I notice. If windows asks you to learn something or put up with some BS it's seen as the cost of business, reasonable, or simply not even noticed. If Linux requires you to learn something, like read one article about which distro might work best for you, it's seen as an insurmountable difficulty or an absurd ask.
it's sunk cost bias. I have this trying to use windows or macos, after using linux exclusively for half my life - everything feels foreign and frustrating, with an obnoxious amount of UX patterns you're expected to know in order to find anything. ugh, I could rant for hours on how obtuse macos is (mainly because I have to interact with it for work right now - if you force me to use windows, I'll rant about that too)
The nice thing about Linux is you can pick a DE that apes whatever OS you're used to so the transition from Windows or Mac to desktop Linux can be very painless.
dear god if I could just run xmonad and dmenu on windows or mac I'd hate employers that tried to force me to use one or the other so much less.
oh my god another xmonad user. You can get almost close with some paid tiling window managers in mac but you can't recreate the managed layouts of xmonad.
yep stuck on Xorg forever gang
Cries in perfectly managed window layouts and reasonable defaults.
It definitely is ya. I use mac for work and that shit sucks
Every time I've been asked to learn about Windows this year has resulted in "Haha fuck you who do you think you are? The owner of this computer? Eat shit pleb you belong to steve balmer now".
You wouldn't believe the amount of bullshit you have to go through to exorcise Edge. Some people told me "This is to protect the user" so i sent them back a picture of system.32 in the recycle bin.
I quit windows after I spent a few hours trying to get permission to delete a file I knew I didn't need but but windows just refused to allow even admin accounts to touch. Had to dig so deep into windows settings.
I had same problem multiple times when I tried Windows. The recommendations I could find on internet were to disable fast startup and boot into live Linux disc.
I don't use linux because a linux computer is not usable for me. I use mine for blender(works on Linux), Creo(does not work), DCS(no linux support, people say it's hard to get working with wine/proton game things) and Destiny (anti cheat will ban you if you run it through one of the linux game things). Like it or not, "just learn an entire new os and new software for all the things you want to do" is not an option for most people.
No I'll never deny that. Some things do only work in very specific environments. I'll also never pretend learning is a task with zero effort or that everyone is interested in doing. What bugs me is when people are dishonest about it. Linux is not impossibly difficult to use nor is Windows a sublime user experience with no friction.
Anticheat though ya that's fucked. Hate that. I'll admit I have a Windows partition solely for playing the few games that require it. Though haven't booted it in a year or so.
I was flirting with Linux for 20 years. There was always something that put me off an I went back to Windows. Recently I installed ubuntu with Kde plasma and I'm not going back. It just works and is heaps faster on older hardware. The old driver issues are gone, compatibility is awesome. The only issue is getting used to new software names.
Same. I started with Ubuntu like a decade ago. I hated it and didn't really see the fuss, kind of gave up.
But then I started putting in tons of time in rasbian, and windows kept getting more and more.. Well, windows. I eventually realized how much more I liked working on stuff on the pi, and just needed proper hardware. That's also when I started to understand the differences between distros. I'm not flaming Ubuntu (I'm not really smart enough to have an opinion), it was just a lot of hastle for something I didn't understand the upside of yet.
Been wrestling with my first all Linux (Debian) box. It's a bit of a learning curve but there's this weird headspace it frees up. It does what I tell it. There's no random software that shows up. There's nothing I can't nuke. No surveys on my favorite BBQ dish in my Taskbar (true story). It's so godamn nice. It's the opposite of a black box.
Im getting another (3rd) box specifically to slowly replace my current desktop. Ill be fooling around with WINE and whatnot for the software I need for work, probably setting up a small windows partition for when I absolutely need it. But all in all I'll be 90% penguin by years end.
I dual boot fedora with plasma (it has all my laptop drivers without me having to install anything) with Windows and it's pretty great, but I was out of Linux for a long time and there's things I don't remember. So I'm missing stuff and don't have the time to relearn what I knew 20 years ago.
It works well enough for day to day tasks and dev work. Windows works well enough to run some games.
Everyone acts like nvidia support on linux is completely broken. I game with nvidia on mine regularly and have never had a driver bug.
It's not that it's broken, it's that the open source driver stack and AMD cards are a superior experience. The Nvidia Linux driver is just like the Windows driver.
I think it's more that they are broken (esp. on Wayland) and that they are closed source and that they are not pre-installed in Mesa and that they lack basic features such as GAMMA_LUT for night light on Wayland...
You know, I've been using Linux on desktops and laptops for like 20 years now. I can count on one hand then number of times I've had hardware support issues. Outside of a fingerprint scanner, I've been able to solve all of those issues.
Meanwhile, my adventures across the years dealing with Windows drivers led me to finally say "fuck it" earlier this year and nuke the Windows install on my gaming rig in favor of Nobara.
I'll take Linux hardware support over Microsoft any day of the week.
I have the opposite experience. For 15 years I've been installing windows on laptops and desktops. Never did I had to 'solve' driver issues. They were either easy to find, by clicking 'search in windows update' or were supported directly through windows itself. No need to solve anything...
The opposite was true for my few Linux (Ubuntu and Linux mint) adventures. Every time something would just not work. The most frustrating for me was the broken sleep function. There was no way to get my laptop to sleep properly. It would wake up at random times or just not boot anymore thereafter.
Just saying that these kind of things really depend on what you work with and what you want to get out of a system
I totally get that. The world is a funny place, and no two people will habe the same lived experience.
And FTR, as weird as this may sound to you, the big deal to me was that on Linux (usually Debian/Ubuntu, Fedora, Arch, or a derivative of those three) there were significantly fewer problems in the first place, never mind whether or not they got solved. I may just have gotten a lucky spin on the Great Hardware Roulette Wheel.
That reminds me of a Microsoft-branded USB WiFi adapter that I was making heavy use of back in mid-2000s. The MN-510. You could buy it brand-new circa 2006. It had a $75 launch MSRP, about $114 adjusted for inflation. Come 2009, we find out that Windows 7 wasn't going to support it. And given what we know about OS development cycles, they presumably made that call in '08 or even '07. Looking back on it, I think this was one of the major catalysts for me to reconsider Linux as a drop-in replacement. Because, wouldn't you know, the adapter kept working just fine when I tried it out in Ubuntu. Support was simply there in the kernel. Plug-and-play. I suddenly had this whole other operating system providing an it-just-works network connection, for free. It was amazing. So I used that adapter for several more years until I could afford a network upgrade. And I'm still using Linux the majority of the time today.
I switched to arch using qtile wm a few months ago. Couldn't be happier. If a game doesn't run on my rig either though stream or lutris well I just don't play it, there's way more games to discover and play.
This! I literally give Windows a chance every version. I even kind of liked Windows 11 this go around.
But something always breaks and no matter how much I trouble shoot the fix is to reinstall windows. To which I say screw that and start distro hoping.
11 with 2022 gaming laptop just stopped updating. The only non native app I had on the thing was STEAM! I have been using Linux for 18 years because it's the only way I know how to fix Windows.
I'd rather stick my head in the rotating blades of a combine harvester than deal with HP printer drivers...
Well, you've got me on that one.
I'm really undecided on this. It really depends on the type of hardware, for example when dealing with graphics card drivers, especially nvidia I'll take windows over linux any day. On the other hand on Linux I don't have to install drivers for almost anything and things mostly just work unless the device is brand new.
I've been using all of the major OSs and they're all good and they all suck in their own way. Windows does suck a bit more than the others, but I don't think it's as terrible as diehard Linux fanboys make it out to be.
I still use Windows on my home PC because bideo gaems and music production. I'd prefer to use Linux instead but oh well it's not the worst thing.
Gaming on Linux has gotten to the point that if it won't play on linux, I just shrug and play something else. Their are more native games, and games that aren't native usually run under Proton, Proton GE, or Wine. There's not much left that won't play.
The Nvidia thing is less of a problem these days with distros like Nobara, Gardua, and Vanilla installing proprietary Nvidia drivers out of the box. Heck, you can even do it with almost 0 extra effort on plain Fedora.
I can't help you with music production, though. Linux has some good stuff for that, but my understanding is that Mac and Windows are still the best choice.
Anyway, like I said to someone else, everyone's different, and everyone's threshold for horse hockey gets set off by different things. It's all perspective, really.
Unless you care about privacy. That one's more empirical than perceptual.
Linux will run on anything
Ps3. Raspberry pi. Phones. All computers ive ever tried to install it on.. and even M-chip macs.
I had a pile of old parts of all sorts of machines sitting in some boxes. Was poking through and thought "hang on"... Bing bang boom threw some bits together and built a new PC to run a jellyfin media server on Mint. Don't even know what most of the parts are...
Even the gotdam Leapfrog runs Linux
https://youtu.be/hZM2zpRA95E
Here is an alternative Piped link(s): https://piped.video/hZM2zpRA95E
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source, check me out at GitHub.
Add PS4 to that
The new CPU requirements for Windows 11 are why I wiped it and am now on Linux Mint. No dual-booting.
Wha? Even a bleeping potato can run Linux nowadays, with zero issues at day 1.
t. Got a Orange pi zero 3, and the lil' bastard is rocking solid -- even with (near zero) support.
Imagine not having all your drivers baked in into your kernel
Imagine not knowing about kernel modules 🤣
shit like this comment thread is why regular people use windows. who the fuck wants to learn about this kind of stuff when you can just point and click? especially when the people who should be helping you post brain-dead self-congratulatory gate-keeping shit like this.
if y'all want people to use linux maybe make it palatable instead of maintaining its difficulty so you can get a chubby about how smart you are
No, regular people use Windows because that's what their device they purchased came with. If they bought a Chromebook instead for example, they'd be using ChromeOS which is based on Linux, and if they bought a Smart TV, it'd probably be running some sort of Linux-based OS as well.
Regular people don't know or care about Linux, nor what operating system their device is running - they just want a device that's easy to use, looks good, has a good price and can let them use Facebook, Zoom etc or whatever it is they're expecting from that device.
There's no need to learn about this stuff, Linux is already just point and click. The main hurdle these days is installing it on a PC, egular people don't mess around with the OS on their device, they just use whatever it is that came on their device. They shouldn't have any big issues using Linux (especially if it's a user-friendly distro like Zorin OS), as long as it's already installed on their machines.
It is already palatable, we just haven't gotten mainstream manufactures to sell preloaded devices to the masses. There are some OEMs like System76 that are doing a good job, but they haven't hit mass market yet. What Linux needs is a partnership with mainstream manufacturers and some big $$$ invested into marketing, plus partnering with retail outets like Best Buy etc. And maybe have a hardware certification program, like how Windows has the WHQL. Market the hell out of it, pass out shiny "Linux compatible" stickers to vendors, put Linux on sleek and shiny MacBook-like devices, and you'll find regular people getting into Linux.
What a weirdly specific thing to get mad about.
i sort of get them, actually. as a nontech person who shifted to Linux out of necessity, i just wanted it to work.
i dont have to imagine not knowing what a kernel module because i still dont, despite using it for years.
I guess I would also be pretty sore if I didn't have... checks notes - all my drivers baked into my kernel?
You might need another muffin. You're a little hangry.
I think the main trouble makers for consumers are the odd network or bluetooth controllers, especially in laptops, which often come with some exotic bullshit.
They have a point. I'm in the market for a new laptop and I have, so far, returned two of them.
First, I tried a Huawei Matebook 16. I was foolish, but I thought it was "easy". No NVidia, no dGPU at all - just part that looked very standard. It was based on the info I had gathered from a few years of Linux usage: "Basically avoid NVidia and you're good". It was anything but. Broken suspend, WiFi was horrible, random deadlocks, extreme slowness at times (as if the RYZEN 7 wasn't Ryzen 7-ing) to become less smooth than my 5 year old Intel laptop, and broken audio codec (Senary Audio) that didn't work at all on the live, and worked erratically on the installed system using generic hd-audio drivers.
I had a ~€1500 budget, but I raised it to buy a €1700 ThinkPad P16s AMD. No dGPU to speak of, sold with pre loaded Linux, boasting Canonical and Red Hat hardware certifications.
I had:
Boggles my mind that the 2 biggest enterprise Linux vendors took this laptop, ran a "thorough hardware certification process" on it and let it pass. Is this a pass? How long have they tried it? Have they even tried suspending?
Of course, that was a return. But when I think about new laptops and Windows 11, basically anything works. You don't have to pay attention to anything: suspend will work, WiFi will work, audio and speakers as well, if you need fractional scaling you aren't in for a world of pain, and if you want an NVidia dGPU, it does work.
Furthermore, the Windows 11 compatible CPU list is completely
unofficialarbitrary, since you can still sideload Windows 11 on "unsupported" hardware and it will run with a far higher success rate than Linux on a random laptop you buy in store now. Like, it has been confirmed to run well on ancient Intel CPUs with screens below the minimum resolution. It's basically a skin over 10 and there are no significant kernel modifications.To be clear: I don't like Windows, but I hate this post as a consumer of bleeding edge hardware because it hides the problem under the rug - most new hardware is Windows-centric, and Linux supported options are few and far between. Nowdays not even the manufacturer declaring Linux support is enough. This friend of mine got a Dell XPS 13 Plus Developer Edition, and if he uses ANY ISO except the default Dell-customized Ubuntu 20.04 audio doesn't work at all! And my other friend with a Dell XPS 13 Developer Edition has various GPU artifacts on the screen on anything except the relative Dell-customized Ubuntu 20.04 image. It's such a minefield.
I have effectively added €500 to my budget, to now reach an outrageous €2000 for a premium Linux laptop with no significant trade-offs (mostly, I want a good screen and good performance). I am considering taking a shot in the dark and pre ordering the Framework 16, effectively swaying from traditional laptop makers entirely and hoping a fully customized laptop by a company that has been long committed to Linux support will be different.
I've thrown Linux on every laptop I've ever owned, and a couple of family members laptops as well and the past 15 years and haven't encountered 1/10th of the issues they you have.
Complaining about broken suspend is funny because Microsoft basically killed S3 sleep in favour of the battery sucking S0. If anything it works better in Linux because you won't open up your laptop to find that Windows Update fucking ran in the background while it was sitting closed in your backpack and rebooted.
I think your issue might be more of an AMD issue. They have a long history of buggy mobile hardware even on Windows.
I mean hell I threw Fedora on to my Intel MacBook Pro and the only real annoyance I had was not being able to reliably disable the SPDIF light in the 3.5mm jack.
I'm currently using the non-linux version of the XPS 13 2-in-1 and my OS experience is actually the opposite of your friends. I can install any Linux ISO without issue, but the standard Win 11 ISO refuses to work because it can't detect any storage drives.
As far as daily driving Linux on it, the only things that don't work are the fingerprint reader and webcam. It's a bit of a piss off given that non-touchscreen version uses similar spec hardware that does support it but it doesn't really affect daily use.
Buy a framework. Only Linux issue is screen tearing on X11 with fractional scaling. Wayland is fine.
I've never had suspend work correctly on Linux. It's always been buggy in Windows as well. You can boot from SSDs about just as fast as waking from suspend, so I don't even try to use it anymore.
Linux does support more CPU architecture (x86 Arm PowerPC RISC) while Windows only support x86 and some Arm CPU so technically Linux support more CPU but Windows does support more GPU and Plug and Play devices (controller, external sound card...)
Windows 11 inherently does not support my CPU because of their fake secure boot requirement. You have to have UEFI.
I've had zero issues with any of my plug and play usb devices. Elgato key light, stream deck, fiio DAC, scarlet solo audio interface, Logitech Webcam, steel series arctis usb headset, etc. All work great without any faffing about.
For stream desk and keylight you aren't using elgato's software but there are pretty good open source options I installed from the graphical package manager in my OS. The audio stuff just all worked when plugged in. I'm missing zero functionality from windows and spent a lot less time "setting up" everything compared to windows.
I would probably rephrase it as "external plug 'n' play devices supporting Windows". You can be fairly certain Microsoft wasn't the one doing the work.
I've had way more plug-and-play success with USB-serial devices under Linux than Windows. Maybe just me though...
Even with x86 only, Linux supports more CPUs. For example, the Ryzen 5 1500x in my old PC isn't supported by Windows 11.
Blows my mind that anyone would use windows.
To be fair, Nvidia support on Linux has been historically quite poor, with users having to manually install drivers (something the average person shouldn't have to think about). Though even that has gotten much better recently, with Debian now allowing forks to have proprietary drivers built in.
I would say Nvidia historically (10+ years) had great support for Linux.
They were officially releasing drivers with feature parity to Windows. To get real manufacturer supported drivers, for a GPU none the less, was a breath of fresh air. This was in the era of having to be careful what wifi card you choose.
Sure, you had to manually install the drivers, which was not the norm with Linux, but that was still the case with Windows too. It wasn't until Windows 7 that "search for a driver" feature in Windows actually did something.
It's really only been recently, with AMD releasing official GPU drivers for the kernel, that things have changed. If you were putting a GPU in a Linux computer 10 years ago it absolutely would have been Nvidia.
By the way, Ubuntu and probably most Ubuntu-based distros (like Linux Mint) also have driver manager (
ubuntu-drivers) that handles drivers similarly to the "search for driver" feature. Except thatubuntu-driversalso let's you select between multiple drivers and let's you easily uninstall them.Don't you have to do that anyway if you install Windows yourself?
There's also pop!_OS which can come preinstalled with Nvidia drivers
More important IMO is the fact that Linux re-detects hardware on every boot! Try moving a Windows hard drive to completely new hardware and getting it to boot. Not a chance...
I've done that multiple times without issue.
That actually works fine since like XP
Until it marks you as unlicensed because you used a new motherboard.
Well, more like 7 onwards. XP was quite hit and miss unless you did a load of prep first.
Yup. though for GPU drivers you'll need to cleanly reinstall them if you downloaded them separately from windows update (which is a requirement for most gaming GPU users)
At least on linux its [insert distro command here] and it'll have your new drivers up and running for you without bloatware
Active directory and it's integration with services such as DNS and DHCP is pretty great though. I wish Microsoft started focusing less on cloud and improved the user (or rather admin) experience of their server tools, they are quite awful is some cases.
I swear to god most of Windows Server’s tools have barely changed since NT 4.0
And sometimes they make a new tool that's better, kinda. And then they never bother updating it to make it good. Looking at you AD admin center.
GPedit is the most annoying tool ever. Why the hell can't I just edit GPO settings values from the active settings menu, without having to open the entire GPO and navigate the huge mess of settings.
AD is the easiest in Windows. We can argue about DNS, but DHCP? You can't even change the subnet size after the fact without destroying and remaking the scope.
I know hardware compatibility has massively improved, but back when I was messing with Linux in high school compatibility was a huge issue. I managed to end up with two laptops and some desktop hardware that were truly difficult to get running. It's like I somehow found a list of incompatible hardware and chose the worst options.
The most frustrating were an evil Broadcom (I think) wireless card and an AMD switchable card (they did actually make a few). That graphics card wasn't supported for very long and was a bother even in Windows.
Edit to add: I was just saying that to point out why some people might have that opinion, even if it isn't valid anymore. I'm actually thinking of jumping back on the Linux bandwagon.
The only real hardware problems I come across these days with Linux is WiFi cards being shit. As far as I'm concerned, carefully selecting hardware is a problem for the *BSDs at this point. Am I missing something?
Yep, really new hardware is still an issue.
My new Zenbook (AMD CPU/GPU) had pretty major issues until the chip family was around a year old.
Previous to this laptop, I always got older hardware when it went on sale (usually from Dell), chip sets and CPU's that have had a while to "mature" I never had any issues with. Except of course with Nvidia drivers, those are always shit.
If you stick with older hardware, you very likely wouldn't ever experience hardware issues.
I've been running various distributions at my primary OS since around 2006. Hardware support these days is amazing.
People say that Nvidia just doesn't work right on Linux. I'd never know that except for everyone saying it. My desktop has Nvidia and all Linux distro I've tried on it are like perfectly fine. Yes for gaming also.
Congrats, You've been blessed with good luck.
Doesnt invalidate other people (like me) who have had tons of trouble with trying to get nvidia cards working/nvidia drivers installed over the years. Even with new distros that bake the drivers in, like Pop!, I still had issues and and headaches that ultimately made it not worth the effort.
What card do you run? I went from a 970 to a 3080ti and both drivers just automagically worked. The 970 used to have dkms issues but it randomly stopped at some point.
It's a combination of Nvidia not supporting mixed refresh rates and mixed DPIs until like really recently and the open source driver not being nearly as performant as the closed one.
I've been running Linux for 100% of my productive work since about 1995. Used to compile every kernel release and run it for the hell of it from about 1998 until something like 2002 and work for a company that sold and supported Linux servers as firewalls and file servers etc.
I had used et4000's, S3 968's and trio 64's, the original i740, Matrox g400's with dual CRT monitors and tons of different Nvidia GPU's throughout the years and hadn't had a whole lot of trouble.
The Nvidia Linux driver made me despair for desktop Linux for the last few years. Not enough to actually run anything different, but it did seem like things were on a downward slide.
I had weird flashing of sections of other windows when dragging a window around. Individual screens that would just start flashing sometimes. Chunky slideshow window dragging when playing video on another screen. Screens re-arranging themselves in baffling orientations after the machine came back from the screen being locked. I had crap with the animation rate running at 60hz on three 170hz monitors because I also had a TV connected to display network graphs ( that update once a minute ). I must have reset up the panels on cinnamon, or later on KDE a hundred times because they would move to another monitor, sometimes underneath a different one or just disappeared altogether when I unlocked the screen. My desktop environment at home would sometimes just freeze up if the screen was DPMS blanked for more than a couple of hours requiring me to log in from another machine and restart X. I had two different 6gb 1060's and a 1080ti in different machines that would all have different combinations of these issues.
I fixed maybe half of the issues that I had. Loaded custom EDID on specific monitors to avoid KDE swapping them around, did wacky stuff with environment variables to change the sync behaviour, used a totally different machine ( a little NUC ) to drive the graphs on the TV on the wall.
Because I had got bit pretty hard by the Radeon driver being a piece of trash back in something like 2012, I had the dated opinion that the proprietary Nvidia driver was better than the Radeon driver. It wasn't til I saw multiple other folks adamant that the current amdgpu driver is pretty good that I bought some ex-mining AMD cards to try them out on my desktop machines. I found out that most of the bugs that were driving me nuts were just Nvidia bugs rather than xorg or any other Linux component. KDE also did a bunch of awesome work on multi monitor support which meant I could stop all the hackery with custom EDIDs.
A little after that I built a whole new work desktop PC with an AMD GPU ( and CPU FWIW ) . It has been great. I'm down from about 15 annoying bugs to none that I can think of offhand running KDE. It all feels pretty fluid and tight now without any real work from a fresh install.
I have an nvidia discrete GPU in my laptop. It works fine.
I think that's probably a bit of misunderstanding. Nvidia doesn't work right in gamescope due to some missing vulkan extensions. Linux gaming is primarily focused around using gamescope as a compositor, specifically with gaming focused distros. You can see where the idea comes from following that trend.
But also, fuck you Nvidia.
Ah yes... it is easy as long as you do something difficult first.
Reminds me of that comment on Dropbox where some guy said it's going to fail because he can easily build something similar with an ftp server.
Dropbox is even making money....(I am shocked as it sends tech firms rarely do.)
Surely we can admit that Linux is ready for general population on the desktop? It's the better choice overall, but the barrier to entry is very high.
Edit: I mistyped and missed the word "not". It's "not ready for general population on the desktop". Sorry guys.
The barrier of entry is basically the same as Windows if you buy a laptop with Linux pre-installed
Eh, it runs most games now which was the only thing it was missing for me.
I want to use Linux at the desktop, but I want HDR and Freesync support. Not sure if Linux supports either in a big way.
Freesync yes, HDR soon™
Freesync and any vrr for that matter is supported on Wayland and X.org. HDR is supported on sway and some other compositors, but I don't think there is too much adoption from apps yet
VRR only works on Xorg if you only have 1 screen. And XWayland is broken on Nvidia.
Linux OSes have always been the ones to run on everything lol, it took Microsoft like a decade to make Windows run on ARM
Which is weird because WinNT 4.0 had several CPU architecture ports. Then MSFT dropped them all for only x86.
Linux has better support for the long tail of hardware. Windows has better support for bleeding-edge hardware. The main reason for this is money.
Except for my AMD 1800x that was 4 years old when W11 launched and not supported.
I hate to break it to you but 4 years old is nowhere close to “bleeding edge” when it comes to PC hardware.
It's also not obsolete.
That’s kind of my point. Linux supports it, but Windows doesn’t anymore. Why? Money - OEMs aren’t selling them anymore, so why spend time to support new features on them? On the flip side, the heterogeneous chiplet structure of the 7950X3D was supported on Windows from day 1, while on Linux the scheduler is still unaware of the different perf characteristics to this day. Why? Same answer - money. AMD doesn’t make money selling 7950X3D on Linux, so they’re not going to spend time writing a kernel driver to optimize perf on it.
Linux is cool and all but can it tell if I'm watching porn and suggest me other porn like windows 11?
Is the other porn at least relevant?
I don’t think I’ve met anyone who enjoys windows 11 unless they’re like 75 years old and only click on google chrome and the power off button
You get to choose between hardware dependency hell and software dependency hell these days.
Why not both!
This is Windows 7 users. I just can't understand them. Why use an old os for the feel and look of it when you can just use Linux and customize it to your liking. ( I know, I know software compability and such. )
I've used Linux on my private laptop for the past few years, never had any major issues. Work desktop is running Ubuntu, no major problems except for the odd bit of poorly maintained software (niche science things, so that's not really a Linux issue). Laptop breaks, I get a Windows 11 laptop from work...and I've had so many problems. Updates keep breaking everything, and I've had to do a factory reset more than once since the recovery after those updates also always failed. Wish I had my good old Linux laptop back :(
Hell, i personally run into MORE issues on windows than linux which is why in 2020 when proton became pretty big news i made the final switch and have not looked back. I use windows in my work laptop cause work makes me, other than that i dont touch windows based systems and i live with more stability running mint.
I just put Arch Linux on a tiny laptop that was struggling to run Windows 11 after an upgrade, and it runs smooth like butter now. Feels good.
Windows 11 and its goddamn picky-ass CPU requirements... What the actual fuck, Microsoft? Did someone over there drink a tall glass of stupid juice and think, "Hey, let's royally piss off a chunk of our user base just because we can?" This is tech elitism at its absolute shittiest.
It’s like Microsoft's throwing a party, and instead of a guest list, they've got some half-baked, cockamamie CPU blacklist. "Oh, you're rocking a perfectly functional CPU from a few years ago? Tough titties! Go fuck yourself with a USB stick!"
This isn't progress; it’s goddamn techno-discrimination. It's like being invited to a buffet and then being told you can only eat if your fork is from the latest silverware collection. I mean, who's making these decisions over there? A drunk leprechaun playing darts with a list of CPUs?
Look, I get wanting to advance, to push the boundaries of what's possible. But this? It's like serving someone a gourmet meal and then punching them in the gut for not having the right kind of fucking taste buds.
Windows 11, with its bizarre-ass CPU criteria, is a masterclass in how to cock up a product launch. Dear Microsoft, next time you decide to drop a steaming turd of a decision on your users, at least have the decency to hand out some goddamn air fresheners, because this shit STINKS.
I have found Linux to have excellent HW support for all older hardware. Only notable exception is fingerprint readers. Granted, it's been years since I tried gaming.
Isn't the CPU support reason solely specific to a new feature Windows 11 was going to use, and you can just use Windows 10 while it's still in support? Plus Windows 10 knows this and won't even try to update your PC to windows 11?
It's not a really strong argument when most hardware drivers are made with Windows in mind first, and maybe someone is going to write up a Linux driver if they're interested. I mean Linux went for years having to do some hack&slash solution to broadcom drivers until they were finally added in. That affected at least 2 laptops in my lifetime.
I will stop to say that currently, I think Linux is in a good spot. But you can't just pretend the issue absolutely doesn't exist because your specific setup works.
I don't think people are pretending Linux is perfect. More people than expected though, are simping for windows despite the fact that the money and energy spent on it truly ought to have led to a better product than what we got.
I officially switched my desktop and server to Linux. If I could switch my work computer I would. I bought a MacBook Air recently because I didn’t know Linux laptops were getting so popular. But I like the Mac and can still do some Linux like stuff in the terminal.
Just wish I could stop windows use at work.
My shoe can practically run Linux as a desktop OS.
Though to be fair, there's no real reason anything that runs 10 can't run windows 11 besides Microsoft's artificial compatibility list.
https://www.abyssapexzine.com/2021/04/dead-badger/
It was published well before 2021, but that's what Google turned up.
Yall miss the point. Im guessing willfully. No average desktop user wants to be forced to use command line to do anything.
Linux will never see mainstream desktop usage.
My mom is in her 70s, never has been techy, and has been using Linux as her daily driver for a solid eight years now. I have to do less troubleshooting for her now that she's on Linux than I ever did when she used Windows. "You have to use the command line" is an extremely outdated criticism of desktop Linux.
Yup. I got relatives started on Mint dual booted with Windows. They don't use Windows as Linux just works.
I've been using various distros for the past 6 months trying to find the right fit for my work. I do remote desktop support of many windows based enterprises.
I use Linux desktop every single day for 8 hours. I also play games of all sorts.
KDE neon was what I had when I started out and it was great. Zero problems. There's no reason you'd ever need CLI in plasma desktop that I can see. Fedora/plasma is a no go. Too complex with selinux and you really do need to know what you're doing. Still quite usable for 90% of day to day
For the past month I've been on mint 21 and have had zero issues and zero CLI time. Been enjoying baldurs gate 3 out of the box, using outlook, teams, various browsers and whatnot. Not going to give a comprehensive list here, but everything works perfectly and almost everything has been installed straight from the software manager.
I've installed ZorinOS on a non tech savvy friends computer so she could get more life out of her old laptop and she was fine without using any terminal
The average Linux distro doesn’t need to use command line for anything. Literally just click on Firefox or google chrome and you’re done lol.
As for gamers, if you take 5 hours to mod games but cant learn to use CLI for 5 minutes then idk what to tell you chief. Though right now it won’t be mainstream because devs don’t want to update their anti cheats for Linux, not because of compatibility
The whole “waste time, value freedom” super duper complexity shit is just propaganda regurgitated by people who heard about Linux through a game of telephone, Hollywood, and YouTube videos. That’s not to say the Linux community is very good at marketing or giving troubleshooting suggestions for tech illiterate people
U dont need command line on most just works distros for average use ! My brother and my mom use linux mint and ubuntu on their PCs and it just works !
GUI alternatives are constantly improving and becoming more visually pleasing throughout distros, and besides, there's real scenarios where normal people HAVE to use Powershell or CMD to get stuff done on Windows. This is becoming less and less of a hurdle.
It wasn't always the case. Windows 3x gui had to be started from a dos prompt. But this anti cli sentiment swings both ways for all OS's.
The bigger issue I have though is a general unwillingness to learn how to do things beyond click icons for apps. Devices now are engineered to be as simple as possible. Which ya, for most people is fine. But these devices in turn are generally way more challenging to fix. So it encourages just buying a new one instead. Creating more ewaste for something that should be easier to fix, all because of software, or physical assembly.
noob
I think you're right. For the average desktop user, it's more about being able to use the software they need, without a terminal.
I think that desktop in linux has advanced a lot in the last few years, and now I'm running my games on a KDE desktop, too! But I keep having to go to the terminal to do stuff I took for granted on other systems, like OS security updates.
What OS security updates are you doing from the terminal?
The linux developers have done an awesome job and linux has come so far it's amazing. But for the vast majority of computer users they don't even know what a terminal is, period, and linux is useless to them unless a Linux user sets it up for them for a very specific use case and that's all they ever do with it.
If all they want is an email and web appliance, a typical computer ignorant user can use linux if it is given to them by someone else.
Yet an ignorant computer user can go and buy a Mac or a windows machine from a retailer and get the job done without having to know anything at all other than they want a computer for x y or z.
Its like the linux developers can't fathom a PC experience without the terminal as a vital participant.
That's not wrong. I'm now struggling to do things on Windows without the terminal. Thinking in terms of commands and processes and files is a great way to do computing. Learning all that stuff has a payoff and it genuinely is difficult to imagine trying to get by without knowing it. Once you do know it you reach for it all the time.
I think an issue is that people tend to think of Linux as meaning "all distributions." So if something is compatible with X distro version yy.zz, the general idea is "it's compatible with Linux." This, in my experience, is one of the things that leads to mandatory command-line usage --- it definitely is possible to get it to work under a different flavor of Linux, but it's not necessarily easy if you're uncomfortable with a command line.
Another is drivers --- if it's mainlined, it will Just Work, but if it's not...well, it may work, but you might have to jump through hoops and get busy with the command line.
In short: if you view your distro the same way you view a particular Windows release, then I really don't think you need the command line for desktop Linux. But you need to accept that some software isn't "compatible," in the above, user-friendly sense of the word.
There is no such operating system as Linux, but there are operating systems built on top of the kernel called Linux. In other words, Linux (a kernel) is not an alternative to Windows (an operating system), but a specific Linux-based OS could be.
IMO it would help if we stopped pretending that Linux is an operating system unto itself and started promoting the actual operating systems that are built on Linux. I see people in this thread arguing over whether "Linux" is user-friendly or not and it's meaningless because they aren't actually talking about Linux, but rather some unspecified thing that runs on top of Linux, and may not even be talking about the same thing.
You can use Ubuntu and Zorin just fine without the terminal.
I tend to agree, but more because I think that Linux needs a killer feature to convince people to switch and privacy aint it for most people.
that killer app is soon going to be "doesn't have advertising in every menu"
Linux doesn't force you to use the command line for anything. It's optional.
I'd love to switch to Linux. I've used Linux off and on for almost two decades now. At one point I was triple booting Windows XP, Windows 7, and Fedora. The one thing holding me back is, strangely enough, game compatibility. I know Proton has made huge strides as I've seen it first hand on the Steam Deck, a lovely little machine. The problem is, I have a huge library, and while I'm okay with slightly less than ideal performance here and there on the Deck (40hz mode anyone?), I absolutely refuse to lose any performance due to running Linux. Benchmarks still show some titles losing 5-15% performance when running through Proton.
Don't get me wrong. I love FOSS. I donate and try to spread the word as much as I can when I find a passion project, and find it particularly useful. Even though this may seem to go against what I previously said, I'm debating on switching to Linux when Windows 10 loses support. I do not want to enable fTPM on my motherboard or update my BIOS if I don't have to. My PC is stable, no thank you. I feel like I'll have to troubleshoot whether I choose Linux or Windows 11. Ugh.
You haven't tried it recently. Every game I play works flawlessly and is just as good or you can't tell vs windows. I've been back and forth for 20 years and now I'm 100% and have been since February. I love it, and I'm happy to have my OS be my OS and do what I want it to do.
Now, to be somewhat fair, I built my new PC with the plan to go Linux. I went team red and a single ultra wide monitor. I wasn't sure about the single monitor at all at first but now, man I love it. I have it setup so when I hit the windows key I can pick a new desktop. The only thing I can't do is watch video's while I play games and it doesn't bother me at all.
Seriously though, outside of work I kicked windows out of my house in 2020 and haven't needed to go back. To be fair, my job doesn't have any software requirements that would tether me to windows, but the gaming performance this year has been nearly flawless for the majority of my library, beyond anticheat some games actually run better on linux when you consider the reduced overhead in a lighter distro
God forbids you ever have to run a game with two or three frames per second less than on Windows. The horror! /s
Joking aside, DRM is the actual roadblock. And it's not even Linux's fault. Just stubbornness and lack of will from developers. Even then, it's just a handful of AAA online games. For some, like me, it has zero effect in my enjoyment of games as I don't play online competitive games. Every other piece in my library actually runs better on Linux no matter how old it is. As Wine/Proton holds a better backwards compatibility than windows 10. Games that no longer run on windows still run on a modern fully specced Linux. No hassle involved. And some modern games actually run as fast or better than on windows nowadays.
Benchmarks also highlight a number of titles actually performing better under Linux than native Windows, especially where Vulkan is concerned. My gaming performance under Linux is fantastic, the advancements in the last five years alone have been astounding.
Now I'm interested in seeing that Win11 $upported CPU list. Anyone got the full link?
As long as you dont use nvidia linux works really well.
Even that is a myth nowadays. Wayland is still hit and miss, but with x11, it's as good as Intel or AMD.
And, if the guys at System76 keep their promises (and historically, they have), with the release of COSMIC, even that will be fixed for good :)
Got a Nvidia card. Never had a issue on Linux.
Can confirm, Mint was easier to set up and have everything working than Windows. Couldn't believe Linux had better driver support. What a world.
Windows 11 on a Pentium 4 - barely usable, though
A good linux distro(32 bit if needed) will run a lot faster!
There's not a lot of things that stupid people can say, that would genuinely frustrate me, but when you make uneducated, factless statements, and then decide to fanboy about something in the same sentence, that genuinely frustrates me
Just so we are clear, are you hating on Linux or windows fan boys?
Why not both?
I'll probably transition my AMD 8350 build over to Linux when Win10 stops being supported. As opposed to my mom's FX-8370 build, which I'll probably just have to replace with a new Windows 11 system, as there's no way I'm expecting her (an elderly woman) to learn anything other than Windows. Especially since she's reliant on Windows-only apps.
The actual hardware she's using will probably be converted to a Linux Desktop, but I'll have to migrate her data to a new mini Windows 11 PC or something.
I know someone (86 yeard old) that never had a computer before her mid-70s. I built her several Xubuntu machines over the years, and she manages getting online, social media, e-mail and solitaire games just fine. She didn't need much teaching from me at all. And it goes without saying that support requests are very rare and I've never had to reinstall her system because of some malware ate her files.
Don't underestimate older people.
Oh, another Linux circlejerk. Man I like my Debian but this stuff is so obnoxious…
I guess I don't see it as a circle jerk. It seems more that there are a bunch of windows fans that haven't tried Linux in the last 5 or 10 years (or ever) trying to convince the Linux community that Linux has a bunch of pitfalls and shortcomings that we don't seem to run into.
I try using Linux on my desktop PC from time to time. Whenever I buy a new rig, I try Linux, as I want to reinstall the system anyway. It never worked. I always tried with brand new hardware -> something is not properly supported -> install current windows. Rinse and repeat every 4 or 5 years whenever I get my hand on a new desktop or laptop. That never changed for the last 20 years.
You are doning it wrong. Whenever I buy new hardware, I read up on linux support before. Formated my last windows partition at home 5 years ago.
when you say "something is not properly supported" what do you mean? like nvidia/amd haven't released graphics drivers yet for linux? or some peripheral isn't recognized?
basically, by buying new hardware just after it launches, you're effectively one of the very first people to boot that hardware with linux. you can usually make it work but most hardware manufacturers don't work with the linux devs to make sure support is in place. so devs have to get ahold of the hardware retail and then fix whatever is broken. the exception to this is AMD and Intel - both companies have people working on linux so they will merge support for new hardware into the kernel before that new hardware is even announced to the public. so if you stick to cpus and video cards from those two manufacturers, you'll make your linux life easier.
even then, though, the support might exist in the latest version of the kernel, but the last Ubuntu or Mint release is still several versions behind. so you're effectively forced to use a distro that releases updates much faster (ie rolling release), or be willing to make modifications to the system post-install to get it to work.
tl;dr: you've got a constellation of requirements that can't all be met at the same time. either give it 3 to 6 months after release of new hardware or be willing to learn how to make it work. expecting software to work with hardware it hasn't yet been designed to work with is always going to be a recipe for failure.
Just the other day I was posting complaining about a thing I was trying to do that should have been simple but Linux made really hard for some reason. Still prefer it to Windows tbh.
The other day, I dug out an old scanner to use. No mac drivers ever and no Win10 drivers. Worked on my Mint laptop with no drivers to install.
Oh, that's why I moved from W10. My audio card refused to work with this OS. The solution: go back to W8.1 which I just skipped as hell. I could never get rid of that problem in W10, BSOD as soon as it rebooted into W10. No matter what I tried, couldn't debug the problem. Fuck it, Linux may be complicated, but at least you end up knowing what's going on. I can't go back to not knowing.
The company I work at only works with windows Servers
One word: printers. Linux isnt event plug and pray, it just detects it.