Is this not treason? Like legitimately, technically.
It may be a violation of the Logan Act, which makes it illegal for private citizens to interfere with foreign relations.
The Logan Act deals with private citizens negotiating with foreign governments. Unless he fucked with Starlink at the direct request of the Russian gov't, I don't see how the Logan Act applies. EDIT: apparently he did it after speaking with Russian government officials. So never mind, Logan Act is absolutely implicated.
*Foreign governments having a dispute with the United States. I don’t think this qualifies. Unfortunately.
Against Ukraine certainly, but since he's not a citizen of Ukraine, then no. If these were US forces that he sabotaged, or the US was actually fighting in the war then it would also qualify, but once again that doesn't apply. It definitely runs counter to US foreign interests, but that's not enough to qualify (and probably good it doesn't, a LOT of stuff people regularly do it could be argued would run counter to US foreign interests).
He did this with federal funds. And the US hasn’t declared war since, what, WW2? The Rosenbergs were executed for treason, and we never declared war with USSR.
The Rosenbergs were convicted on espionage charges. They were sending classified info to the USSR. That's different from treason although it's related. The funding angle is an interesting question though. It still wouldn't be treason, but it could qualify as... breach of contract maybe? Not sure exactly what the charge is when the government pays you for a service and you don't fullfill the service in a satisfactory manner.
Would this not be espionage? Or would he have to have been acting under the direction of a state actor?
Espionage would require providing confidential intel to a foreign power. As far as I'm aware he didn't share any intel, merely disabled the internet service he was providing within key areas. Even then, leaking Unkranian intel to Russia while arguably espionage against Ukraine would likely not qualify. He would need to provide confidential US material to Russia (or another foreign power) for it to be espionage.
Espionage can also encompass acts of sabotage, there are ways this could qualify if it was American forces affected. It's also a glaring example of why many countries maintain state share in major defence companies. No idiot scrolling conspiracy theories on Twitter should be able to not only breach operational security, which he clearly was since he knew the operation was underway, but also sabotage it.
He did not actually do it with federal funds. These were donated Starlink terminals and service was paid for by SpaceX.
That's the whole point, the US government allowed civilian technology to be used in war by a foreign government.
He did this with federal funds
Apparently this was before he got federal funds.
Didn’t he get subsidies for spaceX and Tesla?
Tesla got some preferential loans in 2010, it paid them off by 2013. Now it benefits from buyers of any brand electric car getting subsidies... so, "kind of"?
SpaceX got government contracts for specific services... which could have been inflated or not, but didn't include Starlink (at least not officially).
This is different from direct subsidies like those given to Boeing, which also gets inflated contracts (see NASA's SLS), but in addition gets preferential tax discounts and lowered export taxes.
This reeks of espionage. With a slight hint of war crimes?
This has nothing to do with being Ukrainian, but everything to do with being American, and actively working against American interests and official national and White house policies.
He is actively working against the support USA is providing, and has paid him for, and has ordered him not to sabotage or diminish.
This is treason, which is logical, since Elon Musk is a Trump supporter and they are both traitors and Elon Musk is a pedophile Nazi.
While I think we can all agree that it's treasonous or at least treason adjacent, it however does not meet the specific legal definition of Treason used by the US. Like most of the rich and powerful he's threading legal loopholes to do what he wants without actually violating the letter of any laws while simultaneously stomping all over the spirit of them. There's a strong argument to be made that he is committing sabotage against Ukraine, but once again that's not technically illegal in the US. I don't even think Ukraine has an extradition treaty with the US, so even if Musk was charged and convicted in Ukraine, there isn't really anything they could do about it.
At the end of the day, Ukraine fucked up by trusting and relying on a private contractor for their critical infrastructure. They were in a bind and needed a solution so they leapt at the first one that was dangled in front of them, but it was a hasty decision that has bitten them in the long run. For better or worse there's a reason that no nation relies on infrastructure they don't control for military support, and it's exactly this situation. Even if the hardware was manufactured by a contractor, they would make sure their country was the ones in control of it. Starlink should have been at best an emergency stopgap while Ukraine found another long term solution specifically because it puts their military at the mercy of the whims of a foreign national (not to mention the operational security nightmare where now they have a private US corporation able to literally watch and track their military movements in real time).
Elon Musk is a pedophile Nazi.
While I think Musk is a slimy piece of shit that's made a career out of stealing credit for other peoples ideas, this might be going too far.
While I think Musk is a slimy piece of shit that’s made a career out of stealing credit for other peoples ideas, this might be going too far.
Pedophile is something Elon Musk himself apparently finds it appropriate to call people he disagree with. So I call him a pedophile because I disagree with him.
A Nazi is because he has shown quite a bit of Nazi like opinions and sympathies.
Also I think it's fair to call Russia a Nazi regime, and Musk has shown several times he sympathizes with Russia, and he has used Russian talking points about Ukraine.
Same goes for Trump and his very clear Russian sympathies and connections, and Elon Musk is a Trump supporter.
So all in all, it's seems to me absolutely fair to call Elon Musk a pedophile Nazi. It's not a title I generally use about other people, only Elon Musk, because he deserves that title 100%.
Treason is very narrowly defined in US law. The US is not at war with Russia, and the US is not Ukraine, so no, it's not.
Sedition?
Again. The US government is not the Ukrainian government.
The most painful thing the government could do would be to sanction Musk and his companies for taking actions counter to US foreign policy prerogatives, but then Musk would just pull the plug on Starlink altogether. So nothing will be done.
Seeing as musk could unilaterally act in a fashion contrary to US foreign policy, in the interest of national security the government should take control of the company then.
Obviously that would be an extreme step but... how bad would that get?
That's basically a variant of eminent domain, but I suspect it would be a hard case to argue. Ukraine chose to use Starlink, and the US governments power to invoke eminent domain is based on the common good provided to the US public via the seized property. It's arguable whether the US public would see much if any value from the US government running Starlink unless they're going to start providing free service to US citizens. There's also the problem that there are plenty of other options that don't require seizing of property.
The US could just nationalise it. SpaceX is basically running on government money anyway, just fold it into NASA.
NASA is basically being forced by Congress to funnel SLS program money into select contractors against NASA's own assessments. I don't think you want any of their hands near SpaceX if you want it to stay operational.
Also no. Americans do not legally owe any loyalty to the Ukrainian government.
Hang on... That's sabotage. Straight up. That's a criminal offence no?
Yes. Assisting putler's genocide against Ukrainian children is a war crime.
Yep, but he's rich. I fully expect nothing to happen.
Yeah. According to the article, he straight up told the top military brass of the Biden administration right afterwards and they did nothing. No prosecution, no whistle-blowing to the press about a war crime. Nothing.
If he loves Russia so much, we should deport him there, and nationalize all his assets since SpaceX is a critical security apparatus and he's clearly the foreign agent of a hostile power.
No no, give him to Ukrain, where they can charge and try him. Hopefully end up with life in prison or something better (worse?). Giving him to Russia just makes him more of a Russian asset.
Or OR we ask him to emerge from the Black Sea in his swim trunks to beguile both sides with his majestic beauty and raw sexuality, thereby ending the conflict and bringing peace to the region
needs less hair transplant
He looks like Buffalo Bill here: "I'd fuck me!".
(As Q Lazarus blasts in the background.)
This right here is why I think he was honeypotted by Russian agents who now have kompromat on him.
Then again, being a greedy douche seems his default mode.
This assumes he provides something of value beyond his money
Of value or not, he needs to be trotted out in front of Ukrainian justice. Giving him a free pass to live with his Russian buddies is NOT justice and is not a deterrent for others who would also practice such treachery. Stop trying to save him, you Russian sympathizer.
I think you misunderstand, I'm just saying what kind of "asset" would he be? I'm making a disparaging comment against him.
Perhaps save some of those knee-jerks for the doctor
Elon is not the president, a leader, the military, nor a government. This parasite should be in a prison or a brig at the very least. This is fucking treason.
He controls 10K satellites, the electric car charging infrastructure, and a massive global communications platform. He's too big to control. Good thing we hero-worshipped him for years. 🫢 🤭
He doesn't personally control any of that. Each of those organizations could continue on without him, probably happier to be rid of him.
Yep. It's always good to remind everyone that he didn't build anything, nor did he found Tesla.
The boards and probably kick him out and be better off.
But people think he controls that. And, just as with hundred-dollar bills, what we believe gives things power.
Too big? Hold my TCP/IP stack......
He's the richest man in the world. He could buy his own fucking island and never be arrested. Can one country shut down Twitter, Tesla, or SpaceX?
I've heard this a bit. Treason is a crime against your own country, no? How is this treason?
He's twarthing the war effort of a country the US is supporting. I don't know if he broke any laws but he's defenitely on the government's shitlist now.
Fucking charge him with something. This is insane... If it's not treason, it sure as hell is undermining the billions of dollars in aid were sending Ukraine. We've sent 76 billion dollars so far.
Yeah, if an unelected CEO can tell a democratically elected government what it can and can't do we're no better than medieval peasants who had to bow and scrape for the nobles' favor
we're no better than medieval peasants who had to bow and scrape for the nobles' favor
It's been like that for decades(centuries?). The rich do as they please and the rest of us are treated like livestock. It's impressive citizens don't revolt more than they do these days.
But they keep giving us beer and bread so we arre happy.
That won't work forever.
Especially when the price of bread keeps rising faster than wages.
I know it's an anathema to most in the US but the government needs to step up and take Starlink and Space X off Musk for a fair price. He's way too unstable to be trusted with tech that important.
A fair price would be musk in jail for his crimes.
I was gonna say $3.50, but jail works too.
Elon would want $4.20 cos he’s a fucking dolt
How about .420?
Loch Ness Monster 2024
The older I get the more socialist I am. Yeah, take it away from his dumb ass, but don't keep it ffs. Make it employee owned. Make every business employee owned.
Make it a Co-op with government oversight and maybe security. Its too stategically important to be allowed market level independence.
This is how I feel about Starship. Amazing progress is being made and he's going to fuck it all up before it ever has a real mission. It's sad. World's first fully reusable launch vehicle capable of building real shit in space like colonies and infrastructure and it had to be him that did it.
Did he really do it? I'm pretty sure that was the engineers, which Musk is not.
But he says big words about rockets on Twitter. That means he's an engineer, right?
What I meant was it had to be him that became the figurehead. I want someone with the drive and passion for space exploration, not someone with the passion for profit. A humble engineer or scientist who exists only to expand their knowledge and with plenty of fascination about the universe, not this dollar store Tony Stark wannabe narcissistic blowhard.
I guess I'm shouting at clouds though, because that's how the system is set up. People don't start companies because they want to do something awesome. They start them to make money.
Those people are too busy working to become figureheads
As much as I hate Musk, I doubt something that ambitious would be tried without him or someone like him. Same with starting a fully EV car company when everyone thought we were just but ready for it. Yes the engineers are the ones who do the work, but it takes someone willing to risk a lot of money, and the ability to bring in more money, to make that stuff happen.
I’m pretty sure someone at Tesla or SpaceX put the Twitter idea in his head so he would fuck off and meddle with something else and let them do their actual work instead of dealing with his stupidity, micromanaging and narcissism.
Folks at the Boring Co are just keeping their heads down hoping he forgets they exist
He borrowed a billion from it to buy Twatter. What happens the next time he needs money?
Any system capable of manipulating the outcomes of international conflict needs to become property of the government via eminent domain...especially if that system is used...especially if used by an entrepreneur operating without oversight.
Deactivating US military hardware in the middle of a conflict sounds a lot like an act of treason...
From what I understand he didn't deactivate it.. it was already deactivated and he refused to turn it on.
He had disabled starlink systems over Russian territories - in order to help Ukraine. This included Crimea. Ukraine last year wanted to do a drone-strike on Crimea, so they asked Musk to turn them on. He refused, claiming he was scared of war escalation and that he didn't want to be involved in offensive war operations.
The way you put it is at the very least a rationale. Obviously it can be debated one way or the other, but it makes more sense than him being overtly pro-Russia. I don't think he's so dumb as to make it obvious.
Yeah don't trust headlines. They create the best possible headline to make as many people as interested as possible.. forget about the truth or nuance. During this same period, remember that the US didn't want to give fighter jets or tanks to Ukraine out of fear of escalation. Musk was essentially following official US military policy.
Don't trust billionaires to do the right thing.
I agree. No one man should have all that power.
But we're not really talking about "what ifs" or "ideal worlds"
This is the world we have and this is what happened.
No, I'm saying billionaires should not have that power.
again.. i agree but this is the world we live and we are discussing reality not what ifs. i also think people shouldn't go hungry but here we are with hundreds of millions living in malnutrition
all i'm trying to do is give context so people can actually try and understand what is happening instead of having the wool pulled over their eyes by some other group of rich men
"As Ukrainian submarine drones strapped with explosives approached the Russian fleet, they “lost connectivity and washed ashore harmlessly,” Isaacson writes."
That's from the CNN article over this. The drones were in the middle of their approach when they got deactivated.
There's a reason there's weird wording in all of these articles. The reason the drones would have gotten "deactivated" as they got close to Crimea is because before they were near Crimea, they were connected to the system. Once they got close, they got disconnected since the satellites over Crimea were disabled. This is because Musk disabled Starlink over Russian territory very early on. Ukrainian officials would have been well aware before any operation. There are even sanctions in place since 2014 that Obama put in that restricts any company from doing business in Crimea.
The articles are wording it in a way that's meant to imply that he turned something off mid-operation in an attempt to stop a specific attack. This simply isn't the case.
I'm honestly impressed at the level of blatant twisting of the truth that's going around on the news. Are journalists lazy? Is this just click-seeking behavior? Or is it deliberate misinformation and misdirection?
Here's a quote from the article you linked
the Starlink service provided by his company SpaceX was never active over Crimea and that the Ukrainian government made an “emergency request” to him to turn on service.
“There was an emergency request from government authorities to activate Starlink all the way to Sevastopol,” Musk posted on X, the platform formally known as Twitter that he owns. Sevastopol is a port city in Crimea. “The obvious intent being to sink most of the Russian fleet at anchor. If I had agreed to their request, then SpaceX would be explicitly complicit in a major act of war and conflict escalation.”
SpaceX has disabled Starlink over Russian-controlled regions of Ukraine. As per Business Insider, some have suggested it may have been shut off over certain regions to prevent Russia from exploiting the network.
prompting speculation that it [starlink system] had been shut off in areas controlled by Russia — perhaps to prevent the Kremlin from exploiting the network.
Speaking to political analyst Ian Bremmer from the Eurasia Group, Musk said that Ukraine’s government had urged him to turn on Starlink in Crimea, which Russia invaded and forcibly occupied in 2014
In September Ukrainian officials told The Economist that Mr Musk had rejected a Ukrainian request to allow Starlink to be used in Crimea, a part of Ukraine which Russia invaded and annexed in 2014, ... SpaceX has continued to restrict the use of Starlink in Russian-occupied territory, according to Ukrainian officials
I think Musk is scummy, but I appreciate your response here clearing things up. It makes sense why he wouldn't re-activate it, but at least it's not like he shut it off mid-flight. They just went out of the known range.
I still think Musk is scummy, but for other reasons.
Yeah I understand why he wouldn't wanna get involved. Start facilitating aggressive operations and you're all of a sudden a legitimate military target. I have doubts Russia would shoot down a SpaceX satellite.. but you never know.
We generally don't expect US companies to actively participate in wars, especially a war that the US isn't officially involved in.
I think Musk's decision to offer Starlink access for free to Ukraine is an interesting one. On one hand, they get a bunch of good PR for helping out a country during an aggressive invasion - we're talking hundreds of millions they essentially donated to Ukraine. On the other hand, any good PR they got has probably been canceled out by now. Which I think is ironic - no good deed goes unpunished.
However, I don't think Musk helped just for good PR. I think he felt it was a good opportunity to show off the capacities of his system during a globally publicized war. And it seems like it has definitely met expectations - the Ukrainians have come to rely on the system. So other countries are taking notice. China and Russia are both developing similar systems.
So yeah, I'd probably do the same thing if I were him. He's probably just following the advice of his advisors. I think Musk is scummy too. I don't like him for a number of reasons, the prime being that it seems he's putting all his eggs on fascists coming to power in the US.
But this specific news cycle I think is a psyop meant to discredit Musk. Which fuck it, I don't care really. But I like to know the truth, not propaganda. If I dislike someone, I want to dislike them for actual reasons not lies told to me by a news headline.
Honestly, it's just that journalists want to make Elon Musk look like the bad guy. And thank you so much for taking the time to write this out so that it is far more obvious what's happening because it's just so confusing what they're saying
except Musk said none of these things did he? His response seemed to be in the other direction.
Whose government though? That's the issue with this thinking. As a person who does not live in the US, I'm not sure I want the US to own everything that can be used in war.
It would obviously be the government of the country of origin.
Starlink was designed, built, and deployed from the United States, by SpaceX (a US company) which is owned by Elon Musk (a US citizen), and launched from US soil. Obviously all that junk and and people are subject to US governance, so when I say this specific stuff should be seized by eminent domain, I mean seized by the US Government.
Other junk in other countries built by other people of similar magnitude and ability to interfere with global conflicts would be subjected to those other governments. I wouldn't expect the US Government to seize, under eminent domain, foreign owned stuff in other countries.
If true, my respect for Musk just dropped a .... well, none at all. It would be totally in character.
Make sure to save this for the next time that shitbird or one of his moron suckups tries to say he helped Ukraine. Fucker oughtta be treated the same as any Russian collaborator.
But the truly galaxy brain move is in this article:
After CNN’s reporting, Musk reversed course, tweeting “the hell with it … we’ll just keep funding Ukraine govt for free.”
Gwynne Shotwell, Musk’s president at SpaceX, was livid at Musk’s reversal, according to Isaacson.
“The Pentagon had a $145 million check ready to hand to me, literally,” Isaacson quotes Shotwell as saying. “Then Elon succumbed to the bullshit on Twitter and to the haters at the Pentagon who leaked the story.”
Yeah we keep finding out more and more ways this mofo sucks. Somebody needs to strap him to the front of his stupid rocket and launch him into orbit.
Strap him to a rocket and aim it at a wall
Waste of a good rocket. Strap him in a Tesla and put it on autopilot
Waste of good scrap, hang him and stab him with a spear.
Just take his money away, he'll kill himself.
But that might damage the wall.
Maybe we could use an old 7-11 that’s scheduled for demolition anyway.
OH YEAH!
I don't know... I'd like if like to see him reunited with the tesla he shot up there. It'd be kind of poetic.
Between the drag and the weight it’d be a waste of payload capacity.
So use him as ejection mass to help the propulsion?
Muskovite belongs in prison with the other russian war criminals.
From the moment he gutted 80% of twitter staff very soon after a secret meeting with Putin, its all been pretty obvious Musk is a Russian asset. Twitter helped rally international support for Ukraine and he hasnt been subtle in sabotaging it
Musk is whatever his narcissistic personality wants him to be to get the most attention.
I think the implication is compromat.
“Starlink was not meant to be involved in wars. It was so people can watch Netflix and chill and get online for school and do good peaceful things, not drone strikes.”
Yes my satellite that is actively being used in a war should be designed only for Netflix and chill.
Exactly. This rule should have made clear from the start (instead of gifting Ukraine access to Starlink at the beginning of the conflict), not taken back later on - and silently, too, with a high cost for the Ukrainian army.
Musk / Starlink is absolutely in the wrong here. But since we're seeing Musk stray further and further from grace, is this surprising?
Throw that fuck in prison and nationalize all his shit.
Fuck you, Elon - you festering vomit of a man.
Musk is a war criminal. This is a crime against humanity.
It's neither of those things. Words have meanings, and legal terms have very specific meanings.
Hey look a rational person.
Get a stick and kill it!
Spoken like a true ttrpg player.
'You didn't technically use the attack action.
Legally though, does he still qualify as a piece of shit? Cause he is a piece of shit.
It is neither of those things, but he may be subject to an act of retorsion, which isn't bound by the rule of "proportionate response," from both the government of the US, and the government of Ukraine. I don't expect that to happen, but that's what would happen to any of us doing something like that.
He sould absolutely be in prison. He interfered with a military conflict.
That technically isn't illegal
It isn't legally treason or insurrection. I'm not sure what the legal term would be for what he did, but it does open him up directly for an act of retorsion from either the US or Ukraine, so it is illegal under international law.
The fun thing about an act of retorsion is that it doesn't have to follow the "proportionate response" rule, so Ukraine can go as nuclear as they want against Musk, and The Hague will support them.
If he's not careful the US will simply nationalize SpaceX. It's not going to happen in the next couple of years, but this kind of shit will cause it to happen eventually.
He'd probably love that, gives him more reasons to complain about the left on Twitter.
The reason Space X had suck an easy start was lack of competition in the launch business.
Boeing and Lockheed had so fucked up a competition for launch vehicles, the only way to avoid eternal lawsuirlts was to form United Launch Allliance, initially a 50/50 ownership split between the only 2 launch providers.
The military and alphabet agencies want to buy launches not build big rockets. ICBMs being the exception.
That's why he's a billionaire: no sense of ethics or morality. Dude has outgrown the moral demands of the invisible hand since he's its undeniable winner. So, like...why should he not interfere in war?
I would reverse it: That's why he has no morals, he's a billionaire. Having social or financial power reduces the brain's capacity for empathy - the rich and powerful become evil.
Biologically, that's how power works. You can't grow up with money (esp. South African diamond money) without being evil.
I think it was emerald mining, FYI.
It’s absolutely impossible to become a billionaire and have anything resembling a conscience. Some folks get rich and then have an “oh shit” moment (like Bill Gates) but most just continue abusing every mechanism they can to get richer.
Gates cheated on his wife and was a total asshole through this tenure with Microsoft. Dolly Parton, meanwhile, would be a billionaire if she’d just stop donating all her money and time to charities, underprivileged groups, and other noble causes.
No crazy person should be allowed to have this much power. Starlink should be nationalized, and instead of a payout Elon can go to jail for all that market manipulation he's constantly getting away with.
Nationalised? More like INTERnationalised! Those things aren’t just clogging up the skies over the US, they’re blocking the whole freaking planet.
I don't think starlink should be nationalized, but i do think the US government should create their own satellite internet system. Creating a satellite network like starlink is relatively easy if you already have the capability to frequently launch satellites into low earth orbit. The physical satellites themselves are relatively simple devices, and the software to make it all operate would take some work but also is relatively easy.
(Note that when I say "relatively easy" I'm talking about relative to other large hightech undertakings, like for example the James Webb telescope)
War-related crime maybe, but I don't think this is against any Geneva Conventions
“How am I in this war?” Musk asked Isaacson. “Starlink was not meant to be involved in wars. It was so people can watch Netflix and chill and get online for school and do good peaceful things, not drone strikes.”
Lol, this from the guy that literally turned his satellites off on purpose to influence a war. This guy has poo brain.
This is a great article on the subject posted recently:
This makes Musk a foreign agent by definition, unwitting, semi-witting or otherwise this is textbook foreign agent behavior.
Time to nationalize Starlink
Secretly posted on Twitter that he did this because who is going to hold him accountable?
“How am I in this war?” Musk asked Isaacson. “Starlink was not meant to be involved in wars. It was so people can watch Netflix and chill and get online for school and do good peaceful things, not drone strikes.”
What a fucking douche. As usual.
It goes beyond douche I'm afraid
Absolutely, I’m just tired of committing significant wordage towards him.
JFC - this guy.
I’ll need more info on this. However, if true, it wouldn’t surprise me.
Elon Musk should be 'secretly' stuffed into a tiny cell on a black site and have his wealth redistributed. All secretly and in the name of helping the world, of course.
Can't wait to see how many times the ElmoBois will use Worthington's Law to "defend" the Space Karen.
Is this not treason? Like legitimately, technically.
It may be a violation of the Logan Act, which makes it illegal for private citizens to interfere with foreign relations.
The Logan Act deals with private citizens negotiating with foreign governments. Unless he fucked with Starlink at the direct request of the Russian gov't, I don't see how the Logan Act applies. EDIT: apparently he did it after speaking with Russian government officials. So never mind, Logan Act is absolutely implicated.
*Foreign governments having a dispute with the United States. I don’t think this qualifies. Unfortunately.
Against Ukraine certainly, but since he's not a citizen of Ukraine, then no. If these were US forces that he sabotaged, or the US was actually fighting in the war then it would also qualify, but once again that doesn't apply. It definitely runs counter to US foreign interests, but that's not enough to qualify (and probably good it doesn't, a LOT of stuff people regularly do it could be argued would run counter to US foreign interests).
He did this with federal funds. And the US hasn’t declared war since, what, WW2? The Rosenbergs were executed for treason, and we never declared war with USSR.
Espionage, actually.
The Rosenbergs were convicted on espionage charges. They were sending classified info to the USSR. That's different from treason although it's related. The funding angle is an interesting question though. It still wouldn't be treason, but it could qualify as... breach of contract maybe? Not sure exactly what the charge is when the government pays you for a service and you don't fullfill the service in a satisfactory manner.
Would this not be espionage? Or would he have to have been acting under the direction of a state actor?
Espionage would require providing confidential intel to a foreign power. As far as I'm aware he didn't share any intel, merely disabled the internet service he was providing within key areas. Even then, leaking Unkranian intel to Russia while arguably espionage against Ukraine would likely not qualify. He would need to provide confidential US material to Russia (or another foreign power) for it to be espionage.
Espionage can also encompass acts of sabotage, there are ways this could qualify if it was American forces affected. It's also a glaring example of why many countries maintain state share in major defence companies. No idiot scrolling conspiracy theories on Twitter should be able to not only breach operational security, which he clearly was since he knew the operation was underway, but also sabotage it.
He did not actually do it with federal funds. These were donated Starlink terminals and service was paid for by SpaceX.
That's the whole point, the US government allowed civilian technology to be used in war by a foreign government.
Apparently this was before he got federal funds.
Didn’t he get subsidies for spaceX and Tesla?
Tesla got some preferential loans in 2010, it paid them off by 2013. Now it benefits from buyers of any brand electric car getting subsidies... so, "kind of"?
SpaceX got government contracts for specific services... which could have been inflated or not, but didn't include Starlink (at least not officially).
This is different from direct subsidies like those given to Boeing, which also gets inflated contracts (see NASA's SLS), but in addition gets preferential tax discounts and lowered export taxes.
This reeks of espionage. With a slight hint of war crimes?
This has nothing to do with being Ukrainian, but everything to do with being American, and actively working against American interests and official national and White house policies.
He is actively working against the support USA is providing, and has paid him for, and has ordered him not to sabotage or diminish.
This is treason, which is logical, since Elon Musk is a Trump supporter and they are both traitors and Elon Musk is a pedophile Nazi.
While I think we can all agree that it's treasonous or at least treason adjacent, it however does not meet the specific legal definition of Treason used by the US. Like most of the rich and powerful he's threading legal loopholes to do what he wants without actually violating the letter of any laws while simultaneously stomping all over the spirit of them. There's a strong argument to be made that he is committing sabotage against Ukraine, but once again that's not technically illegal in the US. I don't even think Ukraine has an extradition treaty with the US, so even if Musk was charged and convicted in Ukraine, there isn't really anything they could do about it.
At the end of the day, Ukraine fucked up by trusting and relying on a private contractor for their critical infrastructure. They were in a bind and needed a solution so they leapt at the first one that was dangled in front of them, but it was a hasty decision that has bitten them in the long run. For better or worse there's a reason that no nation relies on infrastructure they don't control for military support, and it's exactly this situation. Even if the hardware was manufactured by a contractor, they would make sure their country was the ones in control of it. Starlink should have been at best an emergency stopgap while Ukraine found another long term solution specifically because it puts their military at the mercy of the whims of a foreign national (not to mention the operational security nightmare where now they have a private US corporation able to literally watch and track their military movements in real time).
While I think Musk is a slimy piece of shit that's made a career out of stealing credit for other peoples ideas, this might be going too far.
Pedophile is something Elon Musk himself apparently finds it appropriate to call people he disagree with. So I call him a pedophile because I disagree with him.
A Nazi is because he has shown quite a bit of Nazi like opinions and sympathies.
Here he is literally using Nazi imagery: https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-shared-twitter-meme-nazi-soldier-image-2022-11?r=US&IR=T
Also I think it's fair to call Russia a Nazi regime, and Musk has shown several times he sympathizes with Russia, and he has used Russian talking points about Ukraine.
Same goes for Trump and his very clear Russian sympathies and connections, and Elon Musk is a Trump supporter.
So all in all, it's seems to me absolutely fair to call Elon Musk a pedophile Nazi. It's not a title I generally use about other people, only Elon Musk, because he deserves that title 100%.
Treason is very narrowly defined in US law. The US is not at war with Russia, and the US is not Ukraine, so no, it's not.
Sedition?
Again. The US government is not the Ukrainian government.
The most painful thing the government could do would be to sanction Musk and his companies for taking actions counter to US foreign policy prerogatives, but then Musk would just pull the plug on Starlink altogether. So nothing will be done.
Seeing as musk could unilaterally act in a fashion contrary to US foreign policy, in the interest of national security the government should take control of the company then.
Obviously that would be an extreme step but... how bad would that get?
That's basically a variant of eminent domain, but I suspect it would be a hard case to argue. Ukraine chose to use Starlink, and the US governments power to invoke eminent domain is based on the common good provided to the US public via the seized property. It's arguable whether the US public would see much if any value from the US government running Starlink unless they're going to start providing free service to US citizens. There's also the problem that there are plenty of other options that don't require seizing of property.
The US could just nationalise it. SpaceX is basically running on government money anyway, just fold it into NASA.
NASA is basically being forced by Congress to funnel SLS program money into select contractors against NASA's own assessments. I don't think you want any of their hands near SpaceX if you want it to stay operational.
Also no. Americans do not legally owe any loyalty to the Ukrainian government.
Nope, he wasn't trying to overthrow the government of country he is a citizen of. He could be considered a non state actor though.
Enemy combatant? I’m running out of words here?
The Ukrainians can certainly call him that.
Notable examples of Non State Actors are: Blackwater(American security company) Wagner (Russian).
It's cute how if Ukraine fights back that risks nuclear war, but when Russia invades a sovereign country it doesn't
It's like the rule of money, but with nukes: those who have the money/nukes, make the rules.
Hang on... That's sabotage. Straight up. That's a criminal offence no?
Yes. Assisting putler's genocide against Ukrainian children is a war crime.
Yep, but he's rich. I fully expect nothing to happen.
Yeah. According to the article, he straight up told the top military brass of the Biden administration right afterwards and they did nothing. No prosecution, no whistle-blowing to the press about a war crime. Nothing.
Check his party affiliation
If he loves Russia so much, we should deport him there, and nationalize all his assets since SpaceX is a critical security apparatus and he's clearly the foreign agent of a hostile power.
No no, give him to Ukrain, where they can charge and try him. Hopefully end up with life in prison or something better (worse?). Giving him to Russia just makes him more of a Russian asset.
needs less hair transplant
He looks like Buffalo Bill here: "I'd fuck me!".
(As Q Lazarus blasts in the background.)
This right here is why I think he was honeypotted by Russian agents who now have kompromat on him.
Then again, being a greedy douche seems his default mode.
This assumes he provides something of value beyond his money
Of value or not, he needs to be trotted out in front of Ukrainian justice. Giving him a free pass to live with his Russian buddies is NOT justice and is not a deterrent for others who would also practice such treachery. Stop trying to save him, you Russian sympathizer.
I think you misunderstand, I'm just saying what kind of "asset" would he be? I'm making a disparaging comment against him.
Perhaps save some of those knee-jerks for the doctor
Elon is not the president, a leader, the military, nor a government. This parasite should be in a prison or a brig at the very least. This is fucking treason.
He controls 10K satellites, the electric car charging infrastructure, and a massive global communications platform. He's too big to control. Good thing we hero-worshipped him for years. 🫢 🤭
He doesn't personally control any of that. Each of those organizations could continue on without him, probably happier to be rid of him.
Yep. It's always good to remind everyone that he didn't build anything, nor did he found Tesla.
The boards and probably kick him out and be better off.
But people think he controls that. And, just as with hundred-dollar bills, what we believe gives things power.
Too big? Hold my TCP/IP stack......
He's the richest man in the world. He could buy his own fucking island and never be arrested. Can one country shut down Twitter, Tesla, or SpaceX?
I've heard this a bit. Treason is a crime against your own country, no? How is this treason?
He's twarthing the war effort of a country the US is supporting. I don't know if he broke any laws but he's defenitely on the government's shitlist now.
Fucking charge him with something. This is insane... If it's not treason, it sure as hell is undermining the billions of dollars in aid were sending Ukraine. We've sent 76 billion dollars so far.
Yeah, if an unelected CEO can tell a democratically elected government what it can and can't do we're no better than medieval peasants who had to bow and scrape for the nobles' favor
It's been like that for decades(centuries?). The rich do as they please and the rest of us are treated like livestock. It's impressive citizens don't revolt more than they do these days.
But they keep giving us beer and bread so we arre happy.
That won't work forever.
Especially when the price of bread keeps rising faster than wages.
I know it's an anathema to most in the US but the government needs to step up and take Starlink and Space X off Musk for a fair price. He's way too unstable to be trusted with tech that important.
A fair price would be musk in jail for his crimes.
I was gonna say $3.50, but jail works too.
Elon would want $4.20 cos he’s a fucking dolt
How about .420?
Loch Ness Monster 2024
The older I get the more socialist I am. Yeah, take it away from his dumb ass, but don't keep it ffs. Make it employee owned. Make every business employee owned.
Make it a Co-op with government oversight and maybe security. Its too stategically important to be allowed market level independence.
This is how I feel about Starship. Amazing progress is being made and he's going to fuck it all up before it ever has a real mission. It's sad. World's first fully reusable launch vehicle capable of building real shit in space like colonies and infrastructure and it had to be him that did it.
Did he really do it? I'm pretty sure that was the engineers, which Musk is not.
But he says big words about rockets on Twitter. That means he's an engineer, right?
What I meant was it had to be him that became the figurehead. I want someone with the drive and passion for space exploration, not someone with the passion for profit. A humble engineer or scientist who exists only to expand their knowledge and with plenty of fascination about the universe, not this dollar store Tony Stark wannabe narcissistic blowhard.
I guess I'm shouting at clouds though, because that's how the system is set up. People don't start companies because they want to do something awesome. They start them to make money.
Those people are too busy working to become figureheads
As much as I hate Musk, I doubt something that ambitious would be tried without him or someone like him. Same with starting a fully EV car company when everyone thought we were just but ready for it. Yes the engineers are the ones who do the work, but it takes someone willing to risk a lot of money, and the ability to bring in more money, to make that stuff happen.
Elon didn't start shit. He bought Tesla.
He didnt start a fully EV car company, HE BOUGHT ONE.
Quit holding people on high regard based on their cult of personality.
I’m pretty sure someone at Tesla or SpaceX put the Twitter idea in his head so he would fuck off and meddle with something else and let them do their actual work instead of dealing with his stupidity, micromanaging and narcissism.
Folks at the Boring Co are just keeping their heads down hoping he forgets they exist
He borrowed a billion from it to buy Twatter. What happens the next time he needs money?
I would love a SpaceX without Elon.
But the thing that made SpaceX what it is now is largely that it is not a government entity.
Any system capable of manipulating the outcomes of international conflict needs to become property of the government via eminent domain...especially if that system is used...especially if used by an entrepreneur operating without oversight.
Deactivating US military hardware in the middle of a conflict sounds a lot like an act of treason...
From what I understand he didn't deactivate it.. it was already deactivated and he refused to turn it on.
He had disabled starlink systems over Russian territories - in order to help Ukraine. This included Crimea. Ukraine last year wanted to do a drone-strike on Crimea, so they asked Musk to turn them on. He refused, claiming he was scared of war escalation and that he didn't want to be involved in offensive war operations.
The way you put it is at the very least a rationale. Obviously it can be debated one way or the other, but it makes more sense than him being overtly pro-Russia. I don't think he's so dumb as to make it obvious.
Yeah don't trust headlines. They create the best possible headline to make as many people as interested as possible.. forget about the truth or nuance. During this same period, remember that the US didn't want to give fighter jets or tanks to Ukraine out of fear of escalation. Musk was essentially following official US military policy.
Don't trust billionaires to do the right thing.
I agree. No one man should have all that power.
But we're not really talking about "what ifs" or "ideal worlds"
This is the world we have and this is what happened.
No, I'm saying billionaires should not have that power.
again.. i agree but this is the world we live and we are discussing reality not what ifs. i also think people shouldn't go hungry but here we are with hundreds of millions living in malnutrition
all i'm trying to do is give context so people can actually try and understand what is happening instead of having the wool pulled over their eyes by some other group of rich men
That's from the CNN article over this. The drones were in the middle of their approach when they got deactivated.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/07/politics/elon-musk-biography-walter-isaacson-ukraine-starlink/index.html
There's a reason there's weird wording in all of these articles. The reason the drones would have gotten "deactivated" as they got close to Crimea is because before they were near Crimea, they were connected to the system. Once they got close, they got disconnected since the satellites over Crimea were disabled. This is because Musk disabled Starlink over Russian territory very early on. Ukrainian officials would have been well aware before any operation. There are even sanctions in place since 2014 that Obama put in that restricts any company from doing business in Crimea.
The articles are wording it in a way that's meant to imply that he turned something off mid-operation in an attempt to stop a specific attack. This simply isn't the case.
I'm honestly impressed at the level of blatant twisting of the truth that's going around on the news. Are journalists lazy? Is this just click-seeking behavior? Or is it deliberate misinformation and misdirection?
Here's a quote from the article you linked
Here are some articles from 2022
https://interestingengineering.com/culture/musk-denies-blocking-starlink-crimea
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-blocks-starlink-in-crimea-amid-nuclear-fears-report-2022-10
https://news.yahoo.com/elon-musk-blocks-ukraine-using-174508012.html?guccounter=1
That quote is clear and to the point. He didn't turn anything off. He refused to turn something on.
https://www.eurasiantimes.com/no-starlink-for-ukraine-elon-musk-makes-a-u-turn-turns-down/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/31/elon-musk-starlink-ukraine-drone-attack-crimea/
https://www.economist.com/briefing/2023/01/05/how-elon-musks-satellites-have-saved-ukraine-and-changed-warfare
I think Musk is scummy, but I appreciate your response here clearing things up. It makes sense why he wouldn't re-activate it, but at least it's not like he shut it off mid-flight. They just went out of the known range.
I still think Musk is scummy, but for other reasons.
Yeah I understand why he wouldn't wanna get involved. Start facilitating aggressive operations and you're all of a sudden a legitimate military target. I have doubts Russia would shoot down a SpaceX satellite.. but you never know.
We generally don't expect US companies to actively participate in wars, especially a war that the US isn't officially involved in.
I think Musk's decision to offer Starlink access for free to Ukraine is an interesting one. On one hand, they get a bunch of good PR for helping out a country during an aggressive invasion - we're talking hundreds of millions they essentially donated to Ukraine. On the other hand, any good PR they got has probably been canceled out by now. Which I think is ironic - no good deed goes unpunished.
However, I don't think Musk helped just for good PR. I think he felt it was a good opportunity to show off the capacities of his system during a globally publicized war. And it seems like it has definitely met expectations - the Ukrainians have come to rely on the system. So other countries are taking notice. China and Russia are both developing similar systems.
So yeah, I'd probably do the same thing if I were him. He's probably just following the advice of his advisors. I think Musk is scummy too. I don't like him for a number of reasons, the prime being that it seems he's putting all his eggs on fascists coming to power in the US.
But this specific news cycle I think is a psyop meant to discredit Musk. Which fuck it, I don't care really. But I like to know the truth, not propaganda. If I dislike someone, I want to dislike them for actual reasons not lies told to me by a news headline.
Honestly, it's just that journalists want to make Elon Musk look like the bad guy. And thank you so much for taking the time to write this out so that it is far more obvious what's happening because it's just so confusing what they're saying
except Musk said none of these things did he? His response seemed to be in the other direction.
You mean Ukrainian military hardware?
Whose government though? That's the issue with this thinking. As a person who does not live in the US, I'm not sure I want the US to own everything that can be used in war.
It would obviously be the government of the country of origin.
Starlink was designed, built, and deployed from the United States, by SpaceX (a US company) which is owned by Elon Musk (a US citizen), and launched from US soil. Obviously all that junk and and people are subject to US governance, so when I say this specific stuff should be seized by eminent domain, I mean seized by the US Government.
Other junk in other countries built by other people of similar magnitude and ability to interfere with global conflicts would be subjected to those other governments. I wouldn't expect the US Government to seize, under eminent domain, foreign owned stuff in other countries.
Elon is a Russian bitch just like the rest of the billionaires.
It seems like privatization is working out great for us 👍
If true, my respect for Musk just dropped a .... well, none at all. It would be totally in character.
Make sure to save this for the next time that shitbird or one of his moron suckups tries to say he helped Ukraine. Fucker oughtta be treated the same as any Russian collaborator.
But the truly galaxy brain move is in this article:
After CNN’s reporting, Musk reversed course, tweeting “the hell with it … we’ll just keep funding Ukraine govt for free.”
Gwynne Shotwell, Musk’s president at SpaceX, was livid at Musk’s reversal, according to Isaacson.
“The Pentagon had a $145 million check ready to hand to me, literally,” Isaacson quotes Shotwell as saying. “Then Elon succumbed to the bullshit on Twitter and to the haters at the Pentagon who leaked the story.”
Musk confirmed idiot
That has been confirmed many times before this.
but he has money, thus he is extra super smart!
Worthington's Law!
https://inv.tux.pizza/watch?v=aDOXhJ_mSGY
Yeah we keep finding out more and more ways this mofo sucks. Somebody needs to strap him to the front of his stupid rocket and launch him into orbit.
Strap him to a rocket and aim it at a wall
Waste of a good rocket. Strap him in a Tesla and put it on autopilot
Waste of good scrap, hang him and stab him with a spear.
Just take his money away, he'll kill himself.
But that might damage the wall.
Maybe we could use an old 7-11 that’s scheduled for demolition anyway.
OH YEAH!
I don't know... I'd like if like to see him reunited with the tesla he shot up there. It'd be kind of poetic.
Between the drag and the weight it’d be a waste of payload capacity.
So use him as ejection mass to help the propulsion?
Muskovite belongs in prison with the other russian war criminals.
From the moment he gutted 80% of twitter staff very soon after a secret meeting with Putin, its all been pretty obvious Musk is a Russian asset. Twitter helped rally international support for Ukraine and he hasnt been subtle in sabotaging it
Musk is whatever his narcissistic personality wants him to be to get the most attention.
I think the implication is compromat.
Yes my satellite that is actively being used in a war should be designed only for Netflix and chill.
Exactly. This rule should have made clear from the start (instead of gifting Ukraine access to Starlink at the beginning of the conflict), not taken back later on - and silently, too, with a high cost for the Ukrainian army.
Musk / Starlink is absolutely in the wrong here. But since we're seeing Musk stray further and further from grace, is this surprising?
Throw that fuck in prison and nationalize all his shit.
Fuck you, Elon - you festering vomit of a man.
Musk is a war criminal. This is a crime against humanity.
It's neither of those things. Words have meanings, and legal terms have very specific meanings.
Hey look a rational person.
Get a stick and kill it!
Spoken like a true ttrpg player.
'You didn't technically use the attack action.
Legally though, does he still qualify as a piece of shit? Cause he is a piece of shit.
It is neither of those things, but he may be subject to an act of retorsion, which isn't bound by the rule of "proportionate response," from both the government of the US, and the government of Ukraine. I don't expect that to happen, but that's what would happen to any of us doing something like that.
He sould absolutely be in prison. He interfered with a military conflict.
That technically isn't illegal
It isn't legally treason or insurrection. I'm not sure what the legal term would be for what he did, but it does open him up directly for an act of retorsion from either the US or Ukraine, so it is illegal under international law.
The fun thing about an act of retorsion is that it doesn't have to follow the "proportionate response" rule, so Ukraine can go as nuclear as they want against Musk, and The Hague will support them.
File this under war crimes, charge him, and throw away the key.
So there is an Elon piss-tape kompromat?
Working theory is the P in P-tape is from pedophile, as in pootin has serious kompromat lorded over drumft. Among other financial leverage.
Same could easily be true for Elon. Where did the billions in Twitter purchasing money come from? Etc.
Throw him in jail. That's it, an individual has disengaged from America elected leadership to act as an independent agent. Also known as: a spy.
Like is this even a debate? Any citizen that did this would be in a CIA black site hoping they got to see their family again.
*Out of loyalty to Putin
If he's not careful the US will simply nationalize SpaceX. It's not going to happen in the next couple of years, but this kind of shit will cause it to happen eventually.
He'd probably love that, gives him more reasons to complain about the left on Twitter.
The reason Space X had suck an easy start was lack of competition in the launch business.
Boeing and Lockheed had so fucked up a competition for launch vehicles, the only way to avoid eternal lawsuirlts was to form United Launch Allliance, initially a 50/50 ownership split between the only 2 launch providers.
The military and alphabet agencies want to buy launches not build big rockets. ICBMs being the exception.
That's why he's a billionaire: no sense of ethics or morality. Dude has outgrown the moral demands of the invisible hand since he's its undeniable winner. So, like...why should he not interfere in war?
I would reverse it: That's why he has no morals, he's a billionaire. Having social or financial power reduces the brain's capacity for empathy - the rich and powerful become evil.
Biologically, that's how power works. You can't grow up with money (esp. South African diamond money) without being evil.
I think it was emerald mining, FYI.
It’s absolutely impossible to become a billionaire and have anything resembling a conscience. Some folks get rich and then have an “oh shit” moment (like Bill Gates) but most just continue abusing every mechanism they can to get richer.
Gates cheated on his wife and was a total asshole through this tenure with Microsoft. Dolly Parton, meanwhile, would be a billionaire if she’d just stop donating all her money and time to charities, underprivileged groups, and other noble causes.
No crazy person should be allowed to have this much power. Starlink should be nationalized, and instead of a payout Elon can go to jail for all that market manipulation he's constantly getting away with.
Nationalised? More like INTERnationalised! Those things aren’t just clogging up the skies over the US, they’re blocking the whole freaking planet.
I don't think starlink should be nationalized, but i do think the US government should create their own satellite internet system. Creating a satellite network like starlink is relatively easy if you already have the capability to frequently launch satellites into low earth orbit. The physical satellites themselves are relatively simple devices, and the software to make it all operate would take some work but also is relatively easy.
(Note that when I say "relatively easy" I'm talking about relative to other large hightech undertakings, like for example the James Webb telescope)
Smells like a war crime to me
War-related crime maybe, but I don't think this is against any Geneva Conventions
“How am I in this war?” Musk asked Isaacson. “Starlink was not meant to be involved in wars. It was so people can watch Netflix and chill and get online for school and do good peaceful things, not drone strikes.”
Lol, this from the guy that literally turned his satellites off on purpose to influence a war. This guy has poo brain.
This is a great article on the subject posted recently:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/08/28/elon-musks-shadow-rule
This makes Musk a foreign agent by definition, unwitting, semi-witting or otherwise this is textbook foreign agent behavior.
Time to nationalize Starlink
Secretly posted on Twitter that he did this because who is going to hold him accountable?
“How am I in this war?” Musk asked Isaacson. “Starlink was not meant to be involved in wars. It was so people can watch Netflix and chill and get online for school and do good peaceful things, not drone strikes.”
What a fucking douche. As usual.
It goes beyond douche I'm afraid
Absolutely, I’m just tired of committing significant wordage towards him.
JFC - this guy.
I’ll need more info on this. However, if true, it wouldn’t surprise me.
Elon Musk should be 'secretly' stuffed into a tiny cell on a black site and have his wealth redistributed. All secretly and in the name of helping the world, of course.
Can't wait to see how many times the ElmoBois will use Worthington's Law to "defend" the Space Karen.
https://inv.tux.pizza/watch?v=aDOXhJ_mSGY