Lemmy.ml tankie censorship problem
I feel like we need to talk about Lemmy's massive tankie censorship problem. A lot of popular lemmy communities are hosted on lemmy.ml. It's been well known for a while that the admins/mods of that instance have, let's say, rather extremist and onesided political views. In short, they're what's colloquially referred to as tankies. This wouldn't be much of an issue if they didn't regularly abuse their admin/mod status to censor and silence people who dissent with their political beliefs and for example, post things critical of China, Russia, the USSR, socialism, ...
As an example, there was a thread today about the anniversary of the Tiananmen Massacre. When I was reading it, there were mostly posts critical of China in the thread and some whataboutist/denialist replies critical of the USA and the west. In terms of votes, the posts critical of China were definitely getting the most support.
I posted a comment in this thread linking to "https://archive.ph/2020.07.12-074312/https://imgur.com/a/AIIbbPs" (WARNING: graphical content), which describes aspects of the atrocities that aren't widely known even in the West, and supporting evidence. My comment was promptly removed for violating the "Be nice and civil" rule. When I looked back at the thread, I noticed that all posts critical of China had been removed while the whataboutist and denialist comments were left in place.
This is what the modlog of the instance looks like:
Definitely a trend there wouldn't you say?
When I called them out on their one sided censorship, with a screenshot of the modlog above, I promptly received a community ban on all communities on lemmy.ml that I had ever participated in.
Proof:
So many of you will now probably think something like: "So what, it's the fediverse, you can use another instance."
The problem with this reasoning is that many of the popular communities are actually on lemmy.ml, and they're not so easy to replace. I mean, in terms of content and engagement lemmy is already a pretty small place as it is. So it's rather pointless sitting for example in /c/linux@some.random.other.instance.world where there's nobody to discuss anything with.
I'm not sure if there's a solution here, but I'd like to urge people to avoid lemmy.ml hosted communities in favor of communities on more reasonable instances.
Did that months ago; defederated completely when they turned into Lemmygrad-lite. At first I missed some more active FOSS communities, but since then, others on different instances have become more active.
programming.devhas a lot of communities that overlap with some of the bigger FOSS ones on.mlso maybe check out what they've got.If there's a community that only exists there, be the change you want to see: create it somewhere else, nurture it, and give it time to grow. You're not the only one making this complaint about
.ml, and you probably won't be the last.Related: I genuinely feel that
mlbeing the official or at least de-facto flagship instance is turning people away.Edit: Oh yeah. Didn't recognize your username at first, but I was looking at the modlog the other day from my LW account, and saw a bunch of individual community bans from Dessalines and wondered what was up. Figured it was something exactly like this, and it was. Thanks for sharing.
Maybe we should open a thread on !fedigrow@lemm.ee about this
TIL that community existed. thanks!
What? I thought I pinged you there a while ago! Anyway, have a look, there should be some topics you might find interesting
May have been my LW account? I mostly use it for my mod role, but I'll switch to it sometimes and browse all there to look for new communities I might like. Perhaps it was that account and I only interacted from there? (My memory is terrible these days 😆)
I had actually considered Lemmy before The Great Reddit Exodus. Lemmy.ml turned me off from that.
Now we have Kbin (you can make it, my love!) and Lemmy.world, and I feel much better.
I... don't think Kbin.social is going to make it. Even if it comes back, too much trust has been lost. Ernst should have stuck to just working on his coding project, not also administering his own instance, b/c that carries with it a certain level of "always-on" responsibility - e.g. I have unfortunately had to block Kbin.social lately, b/c nearly all (>>99%) of the spam that I currently see on the Fediverse was coming from the communities on it. Since I blocked it, I think I've seen like 1 single spam post for the past month.
So Kbin.social is turning people away too, for different reasons.
Mbin seems healthy though?:-)
Kbin, please come back to me
Is it possible to see who is behind a mod action? I've figured something like world news on ml has some compromised fascist actors as mods but if it's the main creator doing this then that's crazy
There's an instance level setting to hide moderator names from unauthenticated and/or non-mod users. They probably have that enabled. Those actions federate, though, so the mod names won't be hidden if viewed from an instance that doesn't hide the mod names.
Is there a way to search for/browse communities on a single instance?
I use https://lemmyverse.net/
You can search for all communities of all instances, or click in a specific instance.
https://lemmyverse.net/instance/programming.dev/communities
Literal fucking tankies. I wonder if they will ever come to their senses. Oh well, it's not as if there aren't Nazi instances somewhere on fedi as well.
A hexbear in that thread is literally claiming that "the soldiers did everything they could to avoid hurting him" when there's a photo of him lying dead on the street after the tanks have gone through. They don't think it's fine, they're saying it didn't happen (curious)
Was it actually him? I was under the impression that history did not relate what happened to him afterwards, nor who he was. That's not to say the CCP did not murder a couple of thousand people during the crackdown regardless, because they did, but I have never seen a verifiable claim that a picture of any particular corpse actually was the Tank Man. There are numerous theories I've seen floated over the years alleging what may have happened to him afterwards ranging from him being caught and imprisoned, executed, living anonymously in China, or fleeing to Taiwan. All of them are unverified and, of course, mutually exclusive.
The tank operators absolutely did attempt to (and succeeded at) avoid running him over. That much is plainly visible in the video. Whatever happened after the video ended is undocumented and pure conjecture. Plenty of well documented atrocities actually were committed that day, before and after that moment, so there's not much sense in inventing new ones and bickering over details we haven't actually got.
Of tank man? The guy in the famous photo?
Where's the picture of this? I've never heard that before. It doesn't appear in his Wikipedia page, it just says there nobody knows what happened to him after.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man
That photo (I've seen it circulate on the internet myself) is a photoshop. Every reputable source says that no one knows what happened to that man, and we have no evidence whatsoever of him getting run over.
He is bundled off to the left by other protestors, nobody knows what happened to him, there is no photo of him dead.
This loony bullshit is why tankies go full useful idiot and parrot shit most of them know isn't true. The right-wing disinfo about Tianamen square - or any other communist atrocity - is so widespread. Tankies think that the most ultra counter-narrative will somehow combat that even if its just as loony.
ah the trolly problem defence
Inaccurate - the tankie pulling the switch would be smiling
Just a heads up, while it is established that the CCCP killed tons of people on that day, the idea that people were crushed with tanks is disputed in academia and mostly considered inaccurate news reporting.
The famous "tank man" photo shows a guy standing in front of a tank in order to prevent them from moving tanks to another part where the protesters had gone. We have no evidence that he was driven over by that tank.
Those "academics" are wrong.
We know this because there are photos of bodies and bicycles smeared into a paste [Source. Warning Blood/Gore].
And because people who were there literally said that's what happened:
The CCP has desperately tried to cleanse the most brutal images and interviews of the massacre from the Internet, but even 30 years on they can't completely scrub it clean. There's a reason The Pillar of Shame monument is designed as it is.
There are photos of people clearly crushed by tanks?
Imo, when tankies get that bad, they might as well be nazis.
I've defended lemmy.ml in the past when people have blamed the entire instance for the actions of a solitary, overzealous moderator, but this genuinely concerns me:
This must have been action taken at the instance admin level, considering all those communities have different moderators.
Is there any way to probe the modlog to see which account it was?
I can't see those, specifically, but a similar pattern of mass community bans after even remotely criticizing an authoritarian regime is completely on brand for Dessalines.
I don't have record of the comment that triggered these, but when it's something like civility, it's usually just a comment removal and maybe a single community ban.
Imagine that - a white dude who appropriates the moniker of an actual slave revolutionary as a symbol for his "cause" might be cringe and unhinged.
Gonna put this out there. Ended up in a thread on ML the other day. The poster/admin got a little unhinged, over 4 down votes. 4. Took to the admin panel to see who dared down vote him. Convinced he had been the victim of the tiniest not swarm ever.
It's troubling behavior for anyone with power.
Lol, is that why they removed scores from the API? 😆
I would imagine that if an admin is doing this the modlog could simply be faked, you wouldn't be able to trust anything that the instance is reporting to the outside world.
This is actually more evidence that the Lemmy devs run a modified version of the code which gives them the ability to, eg do things like dole out mass community bans. There is also some evidence that they selectively federate the mod log as well. It all points to the obvious conclusion that these people can and will abuse their power in any way they can.
I'm pretty sure any admin could do that with their Lemmy server, couldn't they?
Only admins can do site bans. What you're seeing is a hacky/temporary feature of the upcoming Lemmy v19.4, of which lemmy.ml is running the pre-release: when an admin bans someone from the site (temp or otherwise), it also automatically bans them from any community they have ever participated in. Lemmy.ml has always been the "beta" instance for new releases.
They specifically obfuscate which mods take what actions so you can't appeal or even defend.
Tbh, also harass a mod. People get quite worked out when being moderated, and being a mod is enough work without people chasing you to argue with you or straight up harass you, I suppose. At least, I can see plenty of good reasons to hide the moderator name.
People are naive if they think the .ml admins and devs don't intend to keep their thumb on the Lemmy scale. More instances need to take this threat seriously and defederate from .ml, and possibly even fork the Lemmy repos for when the devs inevitably decide they want to start building quiet exploits into the code. There are serious cyber security implications here that people are sleeping on
Yep. Something needs to change if we want Lemmy to be something besides a place for Soviet simps to hide from criticism. Authoritarianism cannot be tolerated.
No, there are not.
At most, if they decide to kill the project by adding malicious code they can affect Lemmy itself. 99% of users don't run Lemmy (which is where the "quiet exploits" would run), and the frontend simply doesn't allow you to have a serious impact, unless you think they will stumble upon a browser 0-day and they decide to burn it by committing the exploit to an open source repo instead of selling it for millions (or use it elsewhere).
What's with the fearmongering? Their stance is crystal clear since ever.
Right, and who maintains the fork? Who, among the large population of external contributor, I mean?
I've been banned from .ml for being a 'racist' for being anti-Xi, despite the fact that I am Chinese, and pointed out my ethnicity as such in the discussion. I guess antisemitic Jews aren't the only weird accusation getting thrown about nowadays.
I don't think any of this is even real to them. The same way that a majority of the white-nationalist 4-channers are just roleplaying and losing themselves in the storylines, as a species we tend to do that, we just get lost in a narrative because it explains how we feel.
The tankies are doing the same exact thing. They're not impacting policy, they're not marching for anything, they're not taken seriously and it's just another in-club that has its own language and imagery and secret handshakes and a unifying message to rally behind (America bad!) and instead of turning that criticism into actionable plans for changing representation and making anything better, they put on WW2 Russian Tanker helmets and have erotic fantasies about a communist uprising that will never happen.
I got a ban for pointing out the nuclear strikes on Japan killed less than the conventional firebombing runs leading up to it, and if nukes wouldn't have been used a shit ton more people would have died.
Like, no opinion on if what was morally right or not, just what the numbers worked out.
It's all trolls over there, when a rational person makes a community, the admins start drama there and troll the mods till they leave or get kicked out for stupid shit.
I just blocked the whole instance. I never see any of their posts now, and as an unintended bonus I don't even get notifications when their users reply to my comments.
Like, it would be best if we defederated from them and that hilariouschaos troll instance.
But I can just block them, works the same.
More people were killed in the firebombing.
The theory that more people would have died of the nukes weren't dropped is FAR from settled fact. The Japanese were already looking to surrender and it's not likely the bomb played a big part in that decision.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki?wprov=sfla1
Regardless it's nothing to get banned over, that's for sure.
I honestly disagree that blocking works the same. Social media relies on a network effect, and if they keep being allowed to operate popular communities then they will have that network effect in their favour, and new users that don't know any better will keep joining.
Defederation is an important tool to turn certain instances into pariahs for bad behaviour, and individual blocks don't achieve that.
If anyone would like more context about the kind of think they were posting:
As others have said, the only option available currently is to leave the instance and re-create your beloved communities elsewhere. The Lemmy.ml Admins also happen to be the ones actively developing the Lemmy code base, and they’re not gonna change because they feel entitled to do whatever they want, and technically, they can because they run the instance.
My best advice is to move on from the instance.
If you want to get away from the Lemmy codebase entirely I can vouch that mBin works quite nicely. I've been on fedia.io for months now and only once or twice hit some kind of technical problem, which was resolved quickly.
MBIN FTW. KBIN has been "We are working on resolving the issues" for some days now. I hope Ernest is ok.
I have a login for lemmy.ml, as I have several from when I was switching over from Reddit. I'm thinking from what I'm reading here, that it's not an instance I want to associate with.
Yeah, nothing against Ernest but developing and running kbin is just too big to be a one-man show.
Dude's a superhero, and needn't be a 'lone ranger'. Agreed. As the Fediverse expands, it will be the work of many; it just has to be that way.
Are there mobile apps yet? Because if no that's one huge advantage Lemmy still has over Kbin/Mbin, and it's why I switched to Lemmy when Artemis started having issues (it went down completely since) instead of going back to Kbin.
https://github.com/jwr1/interstellar
Don’t forget about piefed it’s amazing and lets you subscribe to posts and/or comments. Theres someone who contributed Lemmy API compatibility to use some Lemmy apps with Piefed instances. Its still very early but so far its extremely promising and the codebase is in python and the main developer is focused on ensuring it wasy to contribute. Check it out: https://piefed.social
Code is on codeberg which is great too https://codeberg.org/rimu/pyfedi
Well since all major lemmy instances seem to hide mod names in their logs, we don't know who the banning mods are.
Lemmy.ml also has the funny quirk that it doesnt have a proper legal imprint or team list afaik. So we don't have actual transparent information on who is on that instances admin team and who is not. Iirc only one of dessalines and nutomic is on that admin team anymore.
This Dessalines?
Creeping the admin logs to find out who dared down vote him.
I hardly see what that would accomplish if we could.
As a marxist, I'm myself tired of how tankies deals with criticism. And I don't even understand how people can stay with "Stalin was not so bad", knowing that he never planned to apply the last state of the Communist theory, and even if it did, massacre are not acceptable (sounds obvious), same applying with China and their open market.
In my country (France), Stalinism isn't a thing, all communists are against what happend in USSR, and most are anti-china.
It's because tankies are just contrarians that use communist ideology as a vehicle to be anti-west / anti-United States (anti-liberal democracy). Tankies will defend any cause or ideology that is against 'the west' even if that means happily ignoring the blatant homophobic, genocidal and repressive authoritarianism.
That describes them well imo
And capitalist regimes. The Russian Federation was literally founded by a betrayal of a reformist movement in the USSR, and China consulted with Milton Goddamn Friedman on their economy, ending up with billionaires. I even saw .ml users crying about Russian *oligarchs" having their assets seized ("stolen," as they said), and unironically citing Matt Taibbi. Not even "back in the day" Taibbi, but literally The Twitter Files. Using bought & paid for corporate propaganda to make their point.
They're just campists. I don't want to run afoul of a "No True Scotsman" situation, but fuck, for people who seem to think they're the Only True Socialists, they're willing to drop socialism in an instant if it means they can be edgy dickheads on the internet.
as a communism sympathizing leftist, i hated these mods on reddit and i hate them here. the behavior is idiotic
That's the most frustrating part. These "leftists" are the stupid kind who seem to care more about relitigating idiotic cold war drama than evolving or pushing forward leftist philosophy. It's straight up brain rot, mixed with obvious right wing agitprop disguised as leftist ideology. That fact that anyone other than trolls, spies and teenagers would engage with it is astounding.
They're not, that's just a cover for spreading CCP propaganda.
Let's play identify the ml propaganda! Is it CCP or from the Kremlin?
Tough game, as part of their "super authentic bff" relationship they seem to be loosely coordinating social media disinformation operations.
Cold war drama is still alive and well. You could see it when people call freaking Bernie, or even more laughably Biden, a communist, or in the fall out of every country in the global south, from Latin America to the Middle East, from propped up divisions of countries in East Asia, to the poor former Soviet block of Eastern European countries looted in the wake of the fall of the USSR. Our present interference in South Korea, Taiwan, Cubs Afghanistan, Yemen, and elsewhere are all relics of that time. The US has never really left the red scare mindset, and the global geopolitics of that era will reverberate for generations to come. It's why everyone celebrated when Kissinger died.
Still, saying all that commie and socialist stuff, I still think lemmy.ml is too ban happy. I like that they don't defederate as fast as Lemmy.world, which I think is too eager on that front. But in terms of their posting moderation, I think lemmy.ml is way too heavy handed, and hence I don't like their moderation style at all. It's why I made sure not to choose either of those instances despite them being the biggest and most default. I do like having the choice, though, which is one big thing I like about the fediverse. There's no way to avoid that kind of shit on Reddit. I just wish people would split up the communities among different instances better, though.
Some people just have daddy issues and need an image of a power figure to guide their life. It's obvious on the right, but I've seen various shades of it in the left as well.
The mods of the non-political subs need to move elsewhere, eventually after that the content will just be tankie bullshit and everyone can just defederate them.
We can defederate them now. Content will move as it reaches fewer eyes.
Even the non political .ml communities are full of power-tripping, ban-happy, thread-nuking tyrants in my experience.
Thanks for shedding light on this! I will do my part and no longer post in communities tied to lemmy.ml!
I think all instances need to defederate. This is totally inexcusable. We shouldn't be attached and well connected to a CCP-controlled (influenced or directly) community. This is propaganda, pure and simple.
It's not a problem to have dissenting opinions to widely held beliefs, but it is a problem to have those injected constantly into our streams while all opposition is silently erased and curated to artifically support state-sponsored CCP propaganda.
Sad to see. Feels like Lemmy has no bright future with people in charge of it thinking russia's and China's government is good and ban difference of thoughts, opinions, and beliefs.
Thanks for spreading the word. We get these complaints every few weeks. More people need to be educated and move away from these instances to make the Threadiverse a better place.
Lemmy.ml is a cancer on the Fediverse. If we want it to survive, we need to cut it off.
Not only do they delete truthful responses that contradict their ideology, they often do it in such a way that it is untraceable by other mods. I'm not sure how they accomplish that, nor is the admin who messaged me letting me know that it was happening and he couldn't figure out how. Anyways, my solution has been to completely block that instance, and delete my account there. If they want to exist in a little untruthful echo chamber, then so be it, but I don't need to be a part of it. I recommend you do the same thing.
If they have database access, which they would have being the admins, they can do anything.
The Lemmy devs are .ml admins to boot.
Their mod actions usually do federate out, but their outgoing federation is a bit borked right now with some instances, perhaps due to the recent upgrade to Lemmy 0.19.4-rc.6. I believe they are at least aware of it now, though they have been basically non-responsive to the issue so far.
So it seems they do indeed clean up the modlog... my bans are still in there, but all mod actions where they removed China critical comments are no longer there.
It is extremely obvious that the .ml admins run a malicious version of the Lemmy code which gives them additional levers of control. This alone makes them a serious threat to the entire fediverse.
It is not obvious, most likely not necessary and in any case completely unproven. Why are you so busy making stuff up in this thread?
I've had this happen to me, I was chatting in a thread with some guy about IP theft and plagiarism at universities- a legitimate discussion about a current topic- and all my comments were suddenly deleted for "xenophobia". I let it go but its still really jarring and annoying.
I'll go out on a limb and guess China was mentioned somewhere
Which community was that?
world news lol, Thats probably why. It was a comment under an article on that topic and they went censor-crazy.
Tankies warming up to call you and Lemmy.World fascists in 3, 2, 1...
Thanks for bringing this up, it's really needed.
Your example is just one of many I've seen. The entire instance seems to be engaged in an opinion shaping campaign where only this gross mix of Western doomerism with Russia/China-glorifying fascism is allowed to thrive.
I don't know how to best deal with such indoctrination chambers. Their members become completely divorced from reality and there's no way to pull them back from the brink because anything you could say to that effect gets moderator-deleted. Yet vice versa, they can freely spread their propaganda and engage in "raids" on other instances.
I don't think we can help them. They're praising the authoritarian state capitalist nation of China as an ideal form of government just because the country lies about being socialist. (The "Chinese characteristics" are billionaires and capitalism.) They need cult deprogramming to re-enter reality. Just like the Trumpanzees who think Donald did a good job.
For the rest of us, a team should fork the code and the rest of us cut them loose. I came to Lemmy to get away from delusional far-right redditors. I don't want to read similar idiotic doublethink from "communists" who love capitalism and think North Korea has done nothing wrong.
That's too subtle a statement. It is a willful, bad-faith, full-on attack on objective reality via the rewriting of historical facts, redaction of massive volumes of information and constant aggressive, knee-jerk silencing of voices.
As such, it can also be described as a malicious assault on the mental health of individuals and society as a whole. Their actions a clear example of the type of repressive, miserable society they would have us live in, if given the chance by hook or by crook.
Whenever this topic comes up, I find myself wondering what these folks do all day. Not in a Boomer "don't these people have jobs?!?" way, but more ... what is it like to be them? Do they just sit in front of the computer looking for conversations to disrupt? What is their daily existence? Because I find their volume and dedication to what they do fascinating. Cancerous and absurd, but also fascinating.
This was my experience. My first interaction was me asking a question in good faith. I was then attacked en masse and banned. When I asked about it, I was told how I was a terrible person for not already knowing and believing what they do.
This is their job. They get half a yuan (wumao) per post.
I really want to understand their relationship with the CCP.
Do they genuinely believe the shit they're peddling or are they paid propagandists or is their something more nefarious afoot.
Its about time people bring up the .ml tankie problem. Lemmygrad was defederated but .ml was ignored due to basically being their PR instance. This is the main reason I have stuck to kbin social despite it having a lot of spam and errors and why I am now on Mbin.
Decentralization is good for everyone.
Tell that to the Chinese government lol
I'm all for defederating from tankie instances. They suck.
Yes, we should all recognize that Lemmy.ml is a tankie instance.
Unfortunately, lemmy.ml is run by lemmy's actual developers and will likely remain one of the most popular instances. Best thing to do is block the instance and host new communities on other instances.
That kind of makes me a bit more skeptical of Lemmy as a whole if I'm being honest. Not necessarily the instance owners, but the system as a whole.
LW is already much more active than lemmy.ml (18k monthly active users vs 2.5k: https://fedidb.org/software/lemmy/), so the system is working, people have left for a less politically biased instance
Lemmy.world is biased, but in a way that's harder to see. They're more liberal and centrist, which isn't political in the same way being white "isn't". It seems like it isn't because it's the default of the English speaking West.
But still, ya, lemmy.ml needs to cool it with the bans and heavy handed moderation. I'm glad it's not the biggest anymore but now I think everything is too much on Lemmy.world. I wish people would split up their accounts and communities on more instances instead of putting it all on one (or two). This and Reddit is a great example of why we shouldn't be giving the same people power over everything.
We all have to wrestle with those ethics ourselves, but fwiw most of us have come down to the idea that writing code is one thing whereas administering an instance is something else altogether. People are working on other implementations of the ActivityPub protocol e.g. Kbin, its community fork Mbin, and things like sublinks that doesn't fully exist yet.
Yeah, I've been eyeing kbin/mbin for a bit, which can actually federate with lemmy.
I moved from .ml because of this. Haven't had a ban since and can still interact with .ml communities
Everyone should defederate from .ml, and most have already got rid of hexbear and lemmygrad.
It's an absolute shit show of an instance, and the rest of us don't want to be subject to their nonsense.
I just wish the instance block prevented me from seeing their users as well.
Thanks for calling this out. I will stop posting content to lemmy.ml. What is the next best alternative to lemmy.world? I have nothing against lemmy.world, but would like to spread out content to different sites.
Really depends on the topic.
!movies@lemm.ee for instance is more active than !movies@lemmy.world
!games@sh.itjust.works is a good alternative to !gaming@lemmy.world
There is !til@lemmy.ca vs !todayilearned@lemmy.world
But LW communities are mostly fine. The top priority on Lemmy is to get communities active, we can always migrate them later if needed.
Good. Lemmy communities need to be as instance-agnostic as possible.
I am one of the removed comments and just found out about it here. Does the Lemmy standard really not send direct messages to users when one of their messages was removed? If it was an actual Rule 1 violation (which of course, it wasn't) I'd like to know.
Saying anything negative about China is a violation of rule 1 on lemmy.ml from the admins perspective. They classify anything critical that gains any attention as Sinophobia and file it under bigotry.
It honestly reminds me of fascists saying that harsh criticism of Israel is inherently antisemitic. It's a dishonest rhetorical game.
I would have become a socialist way sooner if Tankies weren't so prominent. 'USSR good' is not a great selling point.
I am a socialist, but I will not simp for authoritarian technocrats
Are you even a real socialist, then? If you aren't excusing absolutely everything from an authoritarian country that calls themselves socialist but produces hundreds of billionaires?
You had me for a moment there
Thanks for illustrating that I was banned from not just one community I don’t participate in aside from upvoting, but several that I have never even visited. All for “Rule 4,” which as far as I can tell is spamming ads, which I have never done. I’ve tried to message the mods of those communities, but haven’t gotten any kind of response.
It’s really disappointing that this is how Lemmy seems to work. As a new user, I had to actively persevere through the .ml bullshit to understand that lemmy as a whole is not like that. But it’s almost impossible to be a progressive (but not full blown anti-western communist) on an awful lot of this platform.
It really does the other large instances a disservice that those mod/admin practices are so commonplace.
I know the answer is to defederate/block them, but I genuinely find the news and posts interesting, and .ml was one of the instances that I was first looking into, because I literally didn’t understand how the fediverse worked but kept hearing “just pick an instance, there no wrong choice since you have access to all the other instances.”
But even those posts about topics I am educated in and care about, it all just literally seems to be a vessel for a specific type of (dis/mis)information in the comments, which actively preys on the gullible and shuts out even moderately different views.
Edit: mobile formatting fix
Same. I've only ever made one post, and it wasn't to lemmy.ml, nor have I made a significant number of comments, yet I was banned first from the instance, then from the communities, for allegedly spamming. I asked in the Matrix chat linked in their sidebar, and they suggested I message dessalines, so I did. He rejected the message request.
If this is their ideal of Lemmy, then Lemmy is dead on arrival.
Agree.
On the other hand nowadays now most of the communities are on LW (https://lemmyverse.net/communities?order=active) so at least it's a bit better compared to a year ago.
It’s a good trend, but I still think it would behoove the admin of more reasonable instances to make it more obvious that there is a sizable and aggressive group of people with nearly unlimited (internet) power, and making it clear that they do not associate at all with those instances/individual practices.
There is a huge dearth of naming and shaming bad actors, and it’s going to reach a size where people won’t do their research as I did, but will assume that all of the fediverse is run by authoritarian Communists and (not) engage based on that.
And that wouldn’t be an unfair understanding, given who the creators of Lemmy are, who their disciples/mods are, and their influence across the platform.
Lemmy really runs the risk of being “left wing Truth Social” otherwise.
Indeed. I'm still on /r/RedditAlternatives to talk about Lemmy, and I usually have to explain that most of the instances do not share the political stances of the main devs.
The situation here is a bit tricky: instance admins still have to debug the software (as they are the ones using it), and they have to interact with the Lemmy devs. Getting too much friction with them could break that collaboration, and leave everyone with worse software.
https://sublinks.org/ is still under development, hopefully once it will be ready instance admins will have another option to potentially replace Lemmy
The thing is, the Fediverse, link the original concept of the Internet is flexible and can survive losing nodes - it just routes around and issue. If there are problems it can mutate and survive.
This is the best solution - the answers are in our hands. Communities only thrive because the users are.posting and interacting on it. If the Mod goes inactive or an instances goes down, we can switch to a new community. That then gains the momentum and goes on to thrive. It's survival of the fittest and why having more than one community on a topic (especially big topics) is a feature not a bug because it gives the network flexibility and resilience.
So if there's an issue with lemmy.ml, boycott it - unsubscribe, give the other communities on more agreeable instances your time and they will grow and prosper. If there isn't a relevant alternative start one.
Lemmy prevails.
This is a good answer and probably the right solution (still not 100% convinced defederating isn't, ultimately, going to be the answer though).
But your Jane/Joe Average User doesn't look to see which instance that
pr0ncute picture of a cat holding a teddy bear is on. They probably don't even understand the concept of different instances showing content from others. Hell I've been online since 1992 and it took me a couple of days to get my head around it when I joined.So I think we need some kind of step by step "If you see X, then do Y" sticked to the instances that care about this for the people who (like me) do care about this issue.
this is why you fediblock lemmy ml and h*xbear
Yeah, but for example !linux@lemmy.ml is the only reasonably active community on Linux, and one of the communities I frequent the most.
If enough people block it and move on to another instance it won't be a problem.
!linux@lemmy.world seems ok, I guess if any people move to it it will become even more active
!linux@programming.dev could probably be a nice one too if people want to avoid hypercentralization on LW
And lemmygrad.ml too, though most instances seem to do that by default now (yours has, as well as hexbear.net too:-).
So just so I know, if I took your advice and blocked lemmy.ml, does that mean I'm also blocking comments from all lemmy.ml users on communities on other instances?
You just made me realize that I have been banned from some of the communities over there while never having posted on them, mods are reading conversations in other communities and preemptively banning people...
Oh, boy. Back to the old Reddit patterns. How long before they start using bots to preemptively ban anyone who has ever posted on certain communities regardless of context as a time saving measure, because that was a thing on Reddit as well?
Any idea which subs are banning like that already?
Ah reminds me of good ol' reddit
As you say OP, the solution here is to use the fediverse model as intended and use different instances/communities. It sucks because it fragments the community, but that’s the way it is. I’ve long held the opinion that I’m grateful to the lemmy developers for building this whole thing that we all get to enjoy, but their approach to administering an instance is reprehensible and actively damaging to the relatively free and open exchange of ideas that should happen on the fediverse.
The threat is bigger than that though. These people control the code base and can easily just start running modified code to fuck with various aspects of federation to generally keep their finger on the scale of any instance which federates with them. At best they have shown they have no shame and cannot be trusted. If there is any means of abusing their power, it must be assumed that they will embrace it.
Sure, to an extent. ActivityPub is an independent protocol not controlled by lemmy or any lemmy devs, so there’s a layer of protection there. This is also a trick that can only be pulled once, because any other instances would likely defederate in response and ML would render itself irreparably untrustworthy. I don’t mean to downplay your concerns as they are valid, but I also don’t think it’s an existential threat.
People are working on alternatives - Ernst started Kbin and then kinda got stuck in it but refused to allow others to help so a community fork Mbin was created, and sublinks will eventually exist as well. However, this stuff takes time. You can help by contributing code or funds or activity to one of those if you like.
.ml = Marxism-Leninism
This wasn't obvious to me because ML could also mean the country of Mali or machine learning, but based on their content and moderation patterns, it's unmistakable that the ".ml" in Lemmy instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad.ml stands for Marxism-Leninism.
Hope that clears things up.
They will ban you for comments that are so inert it's impossible to even know what offended them, it's ridiculous.
I am surprised that my comments on that post weren't removed.
It is pretty horrifying that there are people in positions of moderating what thoughts are allowed to propagate who deny or cover up the events that took place in Tienanmen Square.
Tankies are modding many communities here as well. The solution is to fight them tooth and nail.
Oh they are all over the politics communities. Both as mods and as trolls.
So what you're essentially saying is that these moderators are effectively propagandists/state actors for China, Russia, and so on. I left Reddit to get away from psychic attacks like that, so I'm perfectly happy to defed from the instance. Glad I have the option, too.
Tankies gonna tank. Just block their shit instance and move on with your life.
The issue at hand is there are way too many neutral / unrelated communities which are resident on .ml, and it'd be nice if we could manage to move some of them off.
You can. Create a new community and tell the most active people in the original about it. Once everyone posts in the new comm you're done.
It's not like it hasn't been done before.
Ten forward is a good example, the big posters in c/risa got fed up with the mods and made ten forward on Lemmy.world. Now I almost never see risa anymore but ten forward is always on the front page.
I think this is a core problem of lemmy as it is right now. This place is meant to be federated and decentralized. Instead it is heavily centralized as communities lie on one instance. What one needs should be federated communities as well. Like say c/linux@lemmy.world is the same as c/linux@someotherinstance.com. this way one could subscribe to communities on your home instance and if the home instance defederates from one other instance the community can defederate from the community on that instance without completely breaking apart
What you are describing is basically Mastodon (or, if you like porn and hatespeech, twitter... non-consensual porn because a lot of Mastodon instances are REALLY horny).
The moment you aggregate communities across instances you remove the ability to moderate them. Because maybe a hexbear mod wants to remove all mention of the Uyghur people, an ml mod wants to remove all mention of genocide against them, and a zip mod wants to remove all the comments about why genocide is good in a thread about god damned Bluey.
Do they all get to delete everything across every instance? Do you start having different views of the same community depending on your home instance?
I’ve been making fun of Lemmy.Ml for months, I’m glad to see I’m not the only one
They're also hyper sensitive and generally toxic with their reflex delete/ban/block. They'll see what they want to see in the most mundane comments and nuke an entire thread. Best to just block them and ignore.
The confusion about how the protocol works for new users is real, and suggestions that 'any instance is fine', although true in a technical sense - is a little misleading, firstly when you're not used to how fediverse stuff works, but also when bizarre rules about no swearing or NSFW content are applied at an admin level. I first started on .ml, but moved here after some deliberation because people can tailor their feed and content through joining communities, not having their instance hyper-politicised by ban-happy tankies. (I'm very progressive myself, before it's claimed otherwise)
I think the blurring of the lines between developers of the Lemmy open source project, and admins of the lemmy.ml instance is a self-sabotaging and tone-deaf reflection on the site, and hurts chances of wider adoption. Of course admins are entitled to their own opinions, but the entire purpose of communities like this is to try and decentralise the problematic censorship which has ruined reddit (among other issues). Having faith in the users and mods to consider content and conduct with as impartial as possible development and administration is vital to the site having any chance of being transparent and worth-contributing to.
I don't want to see the whole concept of Lemmy written off by outsiders because their first experiences of the site are of the rabid circlejerk messageboards instead of a new and exciting format for online content with greater interoperability and user control. To this effect, I'm still on the fence about defederating with those communities at a user level, but I think that I'm going to make a more concerted effort to make content and foster the communities I want here, so that .ml fades into insignificance - I don't want to feed into their narratives of persecution.
I wanna call on @dessalines, and @Nutomic, among others, with the greatest respect for their views and contributions to the project, to put the future of the platform ahead of turning it into an echo chamber - either by relinquishing themselves from one or the other (admin/dev), or by the admins collectively creating a clear policy about politicised banning to acknowledge people's concerns about this behaviour.
When people ask about generalist instance recommendations, here's my list
That's pretty much it. Other instances are either topic-based or regional, but then people have to look them up on lemmyverse or fedidb
I don't mind being banned from the ml instance. The issue is their users come to all the other instances and use the same old strategies to stifle any speech by engaging extremely hyperbolic language and name-calling. The goal is to have a chilling effect on any discourse where their opinions are scrutinized in the slightest.
They can't engage with any topics or offer counter arguments. Every response is:
"I don't know how to respond to your argument. You must be a _____________[insert 'racist' or 'genocide defending' or 'fascist' or my new favorite 'zionist']"
Or a bunch of memes that are on the same level as what a MAGA idiot would make.
I've been censored/shadowbanned in a couple .ml instances for calling out their overzealous comment-nuking mods. Not even political in nature, just seeing threads where 80-90% of the comments are 'removed by moderator' and commenting how suspicious it was.
Then they removed that comment, and after taking a screenshot of the new comment calling out that, I got shadowbanned and can't even vote there anymore.
That's just a regular ban. If you were shadowbanned, you would be able to vote but it wouldn't do anything. As far as I know, Lemmy doesn't have shadowbanning.
I was imagining something like this in hexbear or lemmygrad, as people there seemed quite dogmatic at times, but even on Lemmy.ml? Sad to see this, as I had mostly positive interactions there till now
I think unlike on hexbear and lemmygrad, most lemmy.ml users simply don't know, and many communities hosted there are bona fide. I'm not throwing stones at them, it's the admins of the instance that I have a beef with.
Stuff trickles down though, so that it's not solely the admins, even if a large number of the userbase are innocent.
I'm throwing stones. Lemmy.ml is toxic and people managing communities there are partly to blame.
The hexbears realized that EVERYONE blocks them. One particularly humorous youtube even did a "One of the great things about lemmy is that you can block particularly problematic communities. Let's use hexbear as an example. Please follow along" gag to show how to block an entire instance at the user level.
Since ml was generally sympathetic to tankies, if not full of the idiots, the hexbears basically just joined that en masse.
But yeah. Caught a ban for racism/xenophobia because I questioned what positive benefit accelerationism would have for the Palestinian people. Reminded me way too much of attempting to interact with hexbear so I used that as an excuse to just start blocking any .ml community that I see in my feed. Not QUITE at the point of blocking the whole instance but... I expect to be there by the end of the month.
i've noticed a butt load of lemmygrad names appearing as lemmy.ml these days. Seems they got tired of existing in their little de-federated bubble
Interesting, do you have a link to the video?
Not off the top of my head. It was one of the various "tech" youtubers who will do everything ranging from "here is how to set up proxmox" to "I tried five twitter alternatives for a week" videos.
Chinese honey pot
Ironically, .ml seems to be blocked in China.
Pretty much any popular site they can't censor is like that.
Oh, for sure. I just think it's funny.
Definitely lol
Yeah, I've been banned because I said something about Uighur genocide, on the other hand I'm wondering about dessalines' nationality and his knowledge about communism, it's easy to be communist of you only touched it online, I for example live in post communist country and remember some of it, old people are talking about it, it wasn't that good
I'd "understand" if everything would be transparent and they admitted it's tankie instance and you're banned because you don't like China but no, everything is saying their own COC
Do we want someone like that not only administrating the oldest Lemmy instance but developing the whole platform?
lemmy.ml has changed their level of transparency about their political leanings twice. Look at the history of their home page description:
April 2021 to June 2021:
June 2021 to November 2022:
November 2022 to now:
This is almost certainly the case, these kids read about the ideals of communism and think it sounds great, and they know about how things are in the USA and think that's bad. Two fair assessments, but they then deduce that the because capitalist America is bad, then Soviet Russia "communist" China must be good, ignoring the fact that every person who survived/escaped those reigemes described them as hell.
Everyone who wants communism has never lived it, and those who have don't want it.
It sounds great on paper, but humans will always have those who wish to hold power.
For people who want to avoid all content from lemmy.ml, including posts and comments:
I use lemmy.cafe now because it has defederated with lemmy.ml.
As a lemmy.cafe user, I don't see any post/comment from lemmy.ml users at all.
Communities on lemmy.cafe are invisible to lemmy.ml users, so I would recommend creating more communities there.
I agree completely. Blocked the instance only now despite them becoming more and more annoying each month.
LW needs to defederate from LML so that they aren't being spoonfed users from the biggest instance.
Hello,
Are they? Most of the communities are rather on LW: https://lemmyverse.net/communities?order=active
!collapse@lemmy.ml is moving to !collapse@lemm.ee
Is there any community you need that doesn't have a LW or another equivalent on another instance?
I was among reddit refugees a year ago and it took me a moment to notice what was going on ml and their communities were more significant in comparison to what we have today.
One of the reasons I'm on sopuli.xyz now is that it was one of the first reasonably big instances to defederate hexbear outright. Hesitance and outright hostility to defederate it from some instance admins was also worrying.
So long as any active communities on .ml end up on the front page, they will inevitably draw attention away from less censored spaces. An interesting one is !comics@lemmy.ml which tends to rise and fall in popularity in inverse proportion to !comicstrips@lemmy.world.
I agree that other communities have popped up to fill the same niches, so that’s step 1 and 2 done. Completely moving away from them, as OP intends, doesn’t seem like a plausible solution.
I'm sure it's still doable.
Ironically, I've been trying to move a few communities away from LW (to avoid hyper-centralization), and it worked, for instance with !map_enthusiasts@sopuli.xyz (compared to the previous !mapporn@lemmy.world ), same with !casualconversation@lemm.ee which replaced !casualconversation@lemmy.world
Maybe we should bring attention to people about the lemmy.ml kind of moderation (and I guess this post does this quite well) so that they will avoid to post there in the future
Yeah, I made a specific point of avoiding participation in any .ml groups for that very reason.
No, we want EVERYONE to feel welcome.
Pretty sure they are creating alt accounts on non-tankie instances.
They are. Many usernames are strangely familiar despite being relatively new accounts, and there's often a matching .ml or Hexbear user. They know their nonsense is unwelcome.
Is there a way to message instance owners/admins? I would propose that lemmy.world defederates from lemmy.ml asap. Post
Probably start with buying them dinner first
I agree with the facts here but have a slightly different conclusion. This is a problem that exists on many similar platforms like Reddit, etc. If you give mods or admins unlimited power over their users, it is an almost foregone conclusion that it will be abused in some circumstances. While Lemmy.ml is perhaps the perfect storm of a bad example, I’ve seen examples of abuses of mod power from almost every community on both Lemmy and Reddit.
So how do we fix it? Migrating to different communities or instances can sometimes help, but the potential for abuse remains. Having more options for active communities and making migration easier is a step in the right direction. Despite its flaws, Lemmy is an improvement in this respect because its federated nature allows more choice in who has power over you, but the problem remains.
In my view the internet has always worked best when problems are solved democratically rather than autocratically. Content aggregators already allow for this to some extent in what content is presented, but moderation remains quite undemocratic. I think it may be that a new platform with new innovations to make moderation decisions more driven by community consensus instead of owners or founders of communities will be needed. Exactly what this will look like, I don’t know, but some brainstorming might be in order for the next evolution in social media.
We have decades of proof of chuds brigading and building up hate speech hellfests in these "just let capitalism decide" laissez-faire models.
Moderation free environments just turn places into kiwi farms.
I obviously didn’t explain myself clearly if that’s what you took from this. I’m saying the community should be in control of moderation, not that there should be no moderation.
Very true, I saw a post about censorship posted on !mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world that happened in !comics@lemmy.ml (instead of another instance with the same subject community) possibly because of this reason OP mentioned. This complaint post was also deleted from the community because it was violating the rules which I suppose it was since this was the reason:
The title of the post in the picture above was the reason given by the comics mod:
My unpopular opinion however is that simply de-federating won't help as it just promotes those instances into becoming louder echo chambers. I think the simpler solution would be to have a dedicated community for mod abuse (I'm aware of !modabuse@lemmy.world but .world blocked /c/piracy so...) , so users can be aware of said issues and create or migrate to different communities as we see fit. Besides, users can simply block entire instances for themselves. Please don't comment on the paradox of tolerance as I just mentioned blocking for oneself already.
P.S.
Devs please make it easier to browse the modlog, having to press the next button is bafflingly tedious. I had to resort to editing the url to browse faster, add a jump to by time/date or something.
How about something like elections? A community could vote to change its "base instance" to another instance. Example, ask lemmy community vote to change from .ml to .world. It's possible to do this by just not posting in the "old community", so maybe community cloning and community hopping could be the solution.
This just wouldn't work.
Most mods wouldn't willingly hold an election that potentially saw their fief moved away from their control.
Also most communities just aren't that organised. Like if today everyone decided to move, tomorrow everyone would still visit and participate in the old community.
The "election" is perpetual. People will vote with their participation.
I think any censorship heavy instance doesn't deserve attention in the fediverse.
I fucking hate tankies, but.
The problem i have, every time this conversation happens, is that cutting them out doesn't solve anything, and that I don't want to be coddled.
The 2 main issues we have, as lemmy at large, is that there are some wildly uneven standards enforced across instances and that we have no say about that. There was that hugbox instance that would ban people for being rude and yeeted itself into the void, there was hexbear that got de-federated for its mods actively encouraging being subversive (despite its users receiving intolerable psychic damage after 5 minutes in any lib space where people are free to call them names, or was that lemmygrad?) and now we're talking about removing lemmy.ml for the fact that its mods are somehow sentient pieces of actual shit.
And while I agree to all of those reasons, I don't think defederating is the answer.
Every time we fragment the fediverse we make it overall worse.
Average users don't even understand what they're looking at when it comes to decentralized networks, let alone can they understand that there's politicking between instances and such. If I were told "you can make an account on instance x or y, but they don't talk to eachother so if you want to see stuff on instance y you can't make an account on instance x" as a rando, I would go back to reddit, the only reason I didn't is that i really hate the app and I am tech/net savvy enough to handle this.
I am a tad more radical when it comes to speech than most, and I accept that, but I do believe that these people have no power so long as they can't abuse moderation, so the answer to the question "how do we handle open propagandists", to me, is to create perhaps a "moderation neutrality charter" and making it very clear which instances subscribe to it, having each instance's moderation team maybe be required to weigh in on appeals to bans from other instances to ensure a certain amount of balance.
That would take care of that real quick. They can subscribe to the charter and start abiding by neutral moderation standards agreed to across the board by some democratic standard, or they can defederate themselves.
That's actually something twitter does right with the idea of community notes, that for the note to be published it needs to be agreed on by multiple parties that don't usually agree in those votes, to ensure there is a bipartisan agreement.
I know this is perhaps too lofty for a ragtag group of essentially microblogging self-hosters, but a man can dream.
And thus the inherent dichotomy of a decentralised social network is revealed: social networks require the network effect for good senses of communities which means one instance will end up hosting most of the bigger communities, therefore true decentralisation can't occur on Lemmy but it's a step in the right direction.
I’ve commented there on a /news community with sourced points to make my argument and was basically told to shut the F up and had my comments deleted.
So I blocked the community.
I’m not sure how to deal with extremist mods any other way. Their instance, their community, and other than defederating and putting a lot of effort into restarting and growing any valuable communities on another instance while keeping the undesirable .ml gang out, I’m not sure there is any other solution.
The problem is more that they're holding several large bona fide communities hostage this way. For example !linux@lemmy.ml is by far the most active Linux community on Lemmy, and because of network effect it's not easy to get people to move to another instance.
It would take something huge to get people to move, for example some of the larger instances like lemmy.world defederating lemmy.ml.
Tbh this is one of the reasons why I'm looking forward toward Sublinks
What is that?
Compatible alternative to Lemmy: https://sublinks.org/
If their community mods ban enough people, won't they eventually no longer have the biggest communities?
Sorry you stumbled into the wrong instance. Fortunately, other instances already offer alternative communities that are more active and moderated differently.
This could have been avoided if the UI included a warning about communities with problems. Like how PieFed does: https://piefed.social/post/89659
Best thing to do is to personally ask your instance admin to defederate, as well as other users and admins of other popular instances.
Over the past year on Lemmy I have witnessed a constant fight between people on hexbear, lemmygrad, and ml and people on communuties like tankiejerk, meanwhileongrad, and the like.
Both appear to constantly brigade and overmoderate their respective areas of control. Since my instance: sh.itjustworks, is some combination of defederated to hexbear and lemmygrad, I mostly just see threads like these complaining about tankies. I only assume the effort is being matched by those instances I don't see to warrant this problem being so persistent.
So to me there's so much active bad faith behavior between the camps I assume they all just have a paranoid view of the fediverse and are mostly just perpetuating a cycle of bad faith. Maybe that relationship is terminal if just people can't handle each other.
One side argues “maybe we should be authoritarian buttholes and quietly silence dissent on our website of 10,000” and the other side replies “don’t be an authoritarian butthole or we’ll make fun of you in our community of 200.” I’m not impartial in this, but historical revisionism and whataboutism serving the cause of spreading propaganda is generally not the right direction. Looking at the result of both actions is a decent method for determining what you’d like to support or stifle.
Will the actions of the .ml admins, course unaltered, produce an environment that you're willing to post and interact with? For me, the answer is a big no.
made a community rn !de_ml@lemmy.blahaj.zone
The old cowardly “rule 1” violation. Why not just filter their garbage from your feed and be done with it?
Fuck China's and Fuck Russia's elite.
That said, reasonable is in the eye of the beholder, and I see capitalism's apologists at this late hour (I'm suffering a reckless capitalist growth/metastasis caused heat dome as we speak along with 10s of millions of other Americans) as just as unreasonable as you see socialism proponents.
Modding abuse destroys communities, and that's wrong. But I don't demand all the communities I frequent spend their days agreeing with me, nor do I walk away unless the entire ethos/subject of the sub is to be against what I'm for. By that I mean, I can generally enjoy talking about a movie, for example, with a capitalism proponent because it isn't generally centrally relevant to the topic.
The point of discourse is discourse. An AI chatbot will be better at feeding one's confirmation bias than any community made up of people ever can be.
It’s one thing to believe in and promote a particular political or economic system. The censorship found on instances like Lemmy.ml is an entirely different topic. It hurts the fediverse to have people banned from some of the larger communities for nothing other than wrongthink.
The only thing you can really do is create new communities and wait for them to grow.
Eventually lemmy will grow to a point where these communities are moved off that instance.