Hilarious. Logitech’s software has always been an afterthought and now they want me to pay for it? Goooo fuck yourselves. I had to sell a perfectly good keyboard and mouse because their stupid g-hub is harder to navigate than a g-spot.
It kept doing updates and every time it did, it would clobber all my macros and bindings and basically factory reset. I had a txt document on my desktop with all my configs so I could set them back up whenever it decided the configuration gods required a sacrifice.
.....I feel sorry for your girlfriend/wife.
Go on, tell us how you work the spot, G Man.
You basically have to go behind the clitoris and stimulate it from the back while working it from the front with your tongue.
Damn you got a lucky mouse
Almost spat out my food, thanks
Our boys dick looks like the lower case letter 'u' well done
🤷♂️ My girl just lays on top of me and rides up and down along me, and that seems to do the trick. Not every time, mind you. But that's the position that does it, if it happens.
Which is freaking great for me because I love that position. 🤤 Lots of skin on skin.
For hours.
Hours! Then you ain't hittin' it, son.
My girlfriend doesn’t have one, teehee 🤭
G-hub also doesn't work on Linux, which is actually a massive advantage. I use Solaar with a couple of shell scripts and it's amazing. (edit) Actually it's a Python app, so it might even work on Windows.
I've also had to blacklist the HID++ kernel module because high-res scrolling on a loose, mushy ratcheting wheel is awful.
I started boycotting them when they started forcing a program to be downloaded, installed and run automatically on any pc running Windows 10 just by plugging a Logitech mouse/keyboard in to the USB port.
It installes through Windows Update, and is called Logitech Download Helper.
I am fine with Windows Update supplying and installing drivers, but using it to deploy program is scummy...
So now, I am on Xtrfy mice and Ducky keyboards.
G Hub doesn't work with my old trusty G11 keyboard either. Since it's both required for Logitech's newer peripherals and also requires uninstalling the old Logitech Gaming Software which would reduce the functionality of my keyboard, it effectively banishes any future consideration for Logitech's peripherals.
It's basically moot since I run Linux now, but I don't fancy the quality of Logitech's products either these days. It's a shame since their stuff used to be really solid. My X540 speakers are as old as my keyboard (16 years) and also refuse to die.
Oh man I was hoping this would be a sub for alternatives to subscriptions, rather than just pointing out that everything is going to a subscription model.
It's not against the rules of that community to post alternatives. I suspect the community members would love that.
Alternative to subscription based mouse.......any other fucking mouse. Hell, I'd rather use that piece of crap they sell at walgreens for $15.99. It looks like crap, has only 2 buttons, is wired, but it doesn't have a damn subscription.
are mice not supposed to have only 2 buttons????? (excluding scroll wheel)
Mine has left click, right click, scroll wheel, back, forward, and a programable button which I use to switch windows.
I got two like that from China for about 2 bucks each, shipping included.
Nowadays a shitty 15 cent microcontroller comes with built-in USB hardware support and you can use the manufacturer's libraries or even Arduino to make it talk as a keyboard or mouse with any computer (which doesn't even need drivers since support for it is built-in) and it's actually the mechanical stuff that's the most expensive bit.
There really is no reason or need to endure this mouse subscription shit.
I like my Intellimouse Pro. I haven't had a single issue with clicking or scrolling for as long as I've had it (5+ years?). It's a bit pricey, but it works well. I've spent more replacing Logitech mice in the time I've had that one.
That way datasets are harder to correlate and I know who leaked 😝
That’s what I’ve been doing since 2002. If I get spam, I set up a forward to their customer service.
Lol! I need to start doing something like this when one of those email addresses eventually ends up in a breach. :D
Be wary though, it might get your domain blacklisted for spam. I’ve been lucky so far.
Good to know! Thanks for the warning. c: My default course of action will likely be just disabling the old alias and making a new one.
Oh neat, I think I might subscribe to that community.
Wait a goddamned minute
A comment on the article: "I will go back to a command line before I pay a fucking subscription for a mouse."
A mouse is not a complex device. African countries can produce computer mice. I mean, using USB requires paying for the license and circuitry for the USB controller, which is why I hate USB for simple periphery, older interfaces solve the problem better. Anyways, they can produce USB mice too. They can even easier produce PS/2 mice.
Damn, that's pretty racist. You know I come from an "African country" that produces Mercedes right, or like, did the first heart transplant.
Im not sure what you're trying to infer by what you're saying, like we're all some backwards ass fuckwits with 0 ability to do anything?
Fuck, we used to produce our own RAM at a stage. Nuclear bombs even.
South Africa excluded as a former colonial state.
Im not sure what you’re trying to infer by what you’re saying, like we’re all some backwards ass fuckwits with 0 ability to do anything? Fuck, we used to produce our own RAM at a stage. Nuclear bombs even.
I live in Russia, I could have written "ex-USSR and African countries" so that you'd not feel offended. Would have the same meaning.
Point being having actual electronics production and not assembly.
The irony of somebody from Russia calling anywhere else a shithole is just profound. Don't you guys have to pour water in your toilets to flush them? The rest of the world has indoor plumbing mate, even Africa.
Anyway everyone knows that China produces all of the cheap crap anyway, so why wouldn't you go at them?
Don’t you guys have to pour water in your toilets to flush them?
Are you high or something? Why would we?
The rest of the world has indoor plumbing mate, even Africa.
I would expect an entire continent to have some variability.
Anyway everyone knows that China produces all of the cheap crap anyway, so why wouldn’t you go at them?
China produces all of the crap. Without the "cheap" constraint.
Russia is a shithole
Not in every dimension, but in that of producing computer mice yes it is. Which is all that is relevant to this conversation.
By the way, I know that sub-Saharan Africa in general is becoming better very fast, and that Sahel has record population growth, and that Africa as a continent has bright future.
While Russia may hope for that only after a fucking revolution.
These are just irrelevant.
Isn't USB like...a mandatory standard now on all devices?
It's complex enough if you are making some hobbyist device.
I'm imagining some world with production of anything related to personal computers being as decentralized as that of hand screwdrivers.
In that context USB is complex.
USB is better for modern computing since it doesnt operate on an interrupt basis, like PS2, that's the problem with PS2, USB is polling based, so it always calls, which also means it's a lot more versatile and flexible, because you can just call and receive whatever the fuck you want from it.
If you were to use PS2 today, you would likely see a significant performance impact.
Apparently nobody understood in which context this was said.
I meant a Star Wars Expanded Universe-like or solarpunk-like or some other imagined future (but with that element of utopia) world where computers are produced as widely as screwdrivers, are more modular and interoperable and competencies are also more widespread, and where computing is radically simpler due to these two requirements. Because you can't have TSMC fabs everywhere.
USB is by far too complex a protocol for this when you don't necessarily need it.
Also many motherboards still have PS/2 , no significant performance impacts, you might have mixed something up. Anyway, from a computer mouse you don't need much.
Also many motherboards still have PS/2
it's mostly a legacy thing, either industry boards which are used with windows 95, or boards that just include PS2 because, features™
no significant performance impacts
well, part of the problem is that in order to handle mouse inputs, the PS2 calls an interrupt which stops the entire cpu and forces it to focus on the user input, until it kills it likely over a cycle count metric, and then returns back to what it was doing, though perhaps this was back in the day when interrupts were more common, i wouldn't be surprised if modern PS2 is just conversion into USB lmao.
you can argue that USB is complex, and it's not all that complex, it's just serialized data transmission, the benefit of it's "complexity" being the massively increased transmission bandwidth compared to something like serial, which is like 32kb/s historically.
Yes, I know. I should clarify that all this was in the context of some imagined future sustainable computing with decentralized production and a bit of luddism.
As in "how would we live in spacefaring future if the PCs we could have were all comparable to Amiga 500".
that's definitely an interesting thought, i would figure it's probably the most primitive source of communication, I.E. directly managed serial, or probably ethernet, which has an extremely broad range of applications, and standards, from anything from coaxial cables and ring networks, to twisted pair serialized transmission and switched tree networks.
I plug it in, it needs no updates because it's a fucking mouse.
I was intrigued by the idea, I was like, "oooh a modular mouse where it could be a trackball or vertical mouse or multi-sensor components with obvious replacement parts that they'd sell to make it easy on repair"!
Then I saw software and I'm like wtf? do I look like I need something else to Crowdstrike me? "Can't work today boss, credit card didn't update my mouse subscription hang on...."
corporate brain rot
Uh, what would I be paying for, exactly? I don't really see what Software support a mouse really needs, as long as it doesn't ship buggy. Also, I've been using my (Logitech, funnily) mouse for 6 years now, and if you ignore the few scratches it has gathered, it still works pretty much perfectly.
Also, if their solution for a longer lasting mouse really is repairability, isn't that just their way of saying "we designed our other products to be thrown away"?
You would be paying for the privilege of using a Logitech mouse of course!
The company has to grow indefinitely and you my friendly consumer are the back on which they will walk to do so.
Don't worry I'm sure they'll never acquire smaller and successful manufacturers that risk undermining their profit structures.
You've had more luck than us. My wife went through two Logitech G305s in like 2 years, so I switched her to a Razor DeathAddr and she's been much happier.
At work, I use macOS so I went with MX Master 3 and had constant issues with the thumb button not working. It's better now (I guess their SW improved?), and ironically I had far fewer issues with my Triathlon (when I WFH), which is much cheaper.
On my personal devices (Linux), I use Microsoft Intellimouse Pro. It has been solid for over 5 years. I plugged it in and it just works. The only thing remarkable about it is how little I think about it, it clicks, scrolls, and reads input consistently. If Logitech could do that, I'd probably buy more of their stuff, but I've mostly had issues.
It's a MX Master 2S, funnily enough. I still have a over 10 year old working M705 Marathon, on second thought, that I had once bought for my laptop. Had to open it up and bend the mechanism for the left click back into shape once, but no Problems besides.
Make it repairable if you want it to last forever.
I think cleanable is more important.
I had a Razer Diamondback for like 20 years, and let me tell you, the insides of that were not a pretty sight when I took it apart to work out why the mouse wheel was glitchy. Two decades of crumbs and pubes and assorted hand gunk.
Plus the rubber tends to get a bit tacky after a while, and I'm not sure of a good way to clean that.
I think ten years is a decent lifespan for something I use all the time like that. More is a bonus, but I'm happy to replace after that time.
Mice seem to be a stagnant tech, not sure I need another one for the rest of my life.. if I could fix middle wheel click and replace parts like the rubber side that has worn away.
Cleaning is maintenance, a part of repair in my eyes 😊
It's like TEL9 (a piece of technology that is so perfected, that at this point there's no further improvements that can be made to it, see the paper clip, TEL10 is literally obsolete technology like the bow and arrow). The weird thing is there are companies out there that still seem to think that they can make money off of TEL9 tech.
No one thinks they can make big bucks off of paper clips, but CEO's brains turn to mush as soon as it's got a circuit board.
That was specifically one of the goals talked about in the actual interview and the CEO spent a lot more time on that than the topic in the headline.
Lol I actually had to check to make sure this wasn't published on April 1st.
Missed joke opportunity, this is hilarious
This is so absurd. The only updates peripherals need are firmware bug fixes. And it's a standard that these updates are free. Having subscriptions for hardware is kinda dystopic tbh
From the podcast:
Some only have a mouse or only a keyboard, but many of them have both. But the thing that shocked me was that the average spend on that globally is $26, which is really so low. This is stuff you use every day, that sits on your desk every day, that you look at every day. That’s like the price of four coffees at Starbucks or less than a Nike running shirt. There is so much room to create more value in that space as we make people more productive — to extend human potential.
You know why on average people spend so little? Because a mouse is just a mouse. It doesn't need to do anything besides controlling the cursor. It doesn't need a "dedicated AI button that launches Logi AI Prompt Builder" (which is just a ChatGPT wrapper btw)
I don't want to be that one person that just complains about capitalism under every post, but things like this make it hard. We have already perfected the design of a mouse. But every year publicly traded companies need to make more money than in the previous year, so let's add subscriptions to everything. And also AI, because investors love it
Having subscriptions for hardware
actually how i understand that model, the subscription would not be for the "hardware" (which you would still have to 'buy' and pay for all of its repairs by yourself) but only for the software which would actually block you from using your own hardware if you stop paying the then-later-by-them-to-be-definded-price for the 'licence' to use that software, rendering the hardware a useless piece of junkscrap whenever and as long as they whish or their cloud runs on MShitsoft or is maybe ClownStricken, MacAfff'ed, CEO'ed, CTO'ed, Shareholder'ed or such).
That f*up-idea is afaik explicitly NOT a renting model for hardware where they'ld had to make sure that it actually works before you have to pay the rent, but only a licensing software for that only software that is vendor-locked-in on that vendor-poisoned hardware.
As i know myself, i guess i'll discontinue to buy or suggest any of their stuff for a few decades from now, for that "idea" only.
Have a nice(r) day without logitech!
Yeah, apparently the subscription for the mouse would be on top of the upfront cost. I'm honestly baffled that Logitech's CEO thinks anyone would buy it, this feels like an april fools joke
Wait so the subscription literally doesn't cover anything it's just the money I pay to Logitech for no reason?
I just skimmed through the podcast so I might be wrong, but it looks like the subscription would only cover updates to their AI "features":
'[...] is there a vision beyond “the software will do more for you” than just drive your mouse around?'
[...] Should the mouse do more than just move the cursor? Absolutely. And it does that today, and I think similarly about being more productive with shortcuts to the large language models and all kinds of other things. The guy that I met at a barbecue over the weekend who has programmed 120 shortcuts on his mouse, that’s the kind of stuff that can extend human potential in ways that are healthier.
i believe such happens only bcs society lets people into such positions without checking them to be fit in any way for anything except them having a bank account for receiving millions and a lawyer to check contracts and tell them what they should not say in public and receive parts of these millions in return for changing their customers "pampers".
or maybe that brainfart was just part of a trip on randomly mind altering illegal substances?
or maybe a brain tumor?
or maybe a brain parasite?
or maybe a parasite brain?
or maybe just normal capitalism?
or maybe a tumor that grows in society?
i guess we will never know for sure.
What can I say? I see "Capitalism bad" and I upvote.
I agree. We collectively overconsume, where are the manufacturers with pride in building quality devices that just work?
I'm a hardware engineer, I'd be embarrassed to release some of the shit I've seen onto the market for public consumption.
The rules are simple: solid state where you can, robust enclosures that can withstand common cleaners & IV exposure, geometry that makes it difficult for those cleaning fluids to get into the electronics. That's it, you've got most people covered with a reliable device to interact with daily. Pinch pennies on the RGB LEDs, not the housing!
But the thing that shocked me was that the average spend on that globally is $26, which is really so low.
Yeah because it's a mouse. What extra features is it going to have if I paid $100.
When companies that sell physical products like peripherals (as an example) try to invoke the subscription model, it just says that they are failing and desperate for profits.
Which means that other products are available and better.
I’m kind of surprised they haven’t decided to do what MS does with controller, or smart watch manufacturers do with watch bands. Create unique collectible colors, have a design lab, etc. Let people treat mice like sunglasses. A fashion accessory that you occasionally change or augment for aesthetic reasons.
I don’t need a new mouse ever year, but I might be down to change it’s shell.
Please don't. we already produce and waste a lot of plastic as it is
Except their mice are built better and last longer than any of the popular gaming brands. I've owned 4 logitech nice in my life and that would be every mouse I've owned since 1995 and only one of those actually died. People complain about their razer mice lasting 3 years and then go out and buy another one as if that's normal meanwhile you can easily get 5+ years out of a logitech mouse.
I have owned 3 G203 mice (never again) and they have all failed the same way, with the left mouse button switch failing and causing double clicks/inability to select anything without resetting.
Quality must depend on which model you get.
I only go for their higher end productivity mice so I can't say much about their gaming gear. It seems like gaming mice, regardless of the brand, typically have shorter lifespans. Either that or gamers are just more vocal when there are issues.
5 years isn't a long lifespan.
Only one ever died on me (brother spilled beer on it) and that was after 6ish years. The rest were upgrades to newer models. My current mouse (mx master) is coming up on 8 years and I'm debating between replacing the battery or getting a newer model but it still works as well as it ever has.
I used to only buy logitech, but having a $125. mouse freak out after a few years, and I never game, that's sad.
What the actual ever living fuck happened in their brain to create this thought
Endless meetings all focused around creating value for shareholders at any expense
Capitalism
That's just it - his brain is in a state of decay.
They're putting fentanyl in the cocaine now.
I think she's a her in this case.
I only saw "exec" in the description, mb.
I will learn to build a mouse and write my own damn drivers first.
I actually know how to do this off the top of my head and you don't need to write a driver for it, you could simply use an Arduino Micro.
The Micro (and other Arduino-compatible Atmel ATMEGA 32u4-based microcontrollers) have native USB support so they have a library you can import that will work with generic USB keyboard/mouse drivers. It would be up to you to rig up the sensors and buttons, make a case and write a little firmware.
Nice! Thank you!
Coming from the same side as you, in my experience just about any microcontroller that includes USB hardware support (which is very common even in the stupidly cheap ones) has software support for acting as a mouse or keyboard, not just via the Arduino framework but also in the manufacturer's libraries.
This is because the comms for that stuff in USB is an USB standard called USB HID (stands for Human Interface Device) which works not just for mice and keyboards but also for stuff like joysticks, game controllers and so on.
Meanwhile on the computer side, also because of all of this being standardized, support comes include in the OS and no drivers are needed. In fact even back in Windows 7 when you might need to install a driver, all that the "driver" was, was a text file telling the OS to, for a USB device with a specific ID (USB devices identify themselves using a two number code), use the OS' built-in USB HID support.
Nowadays the difficult part in making a good mouse or a keyboard is the mechanical side, not the hardware or software.
Unsurprisingly you can buy a basic mouse for 2 bucks from places like Aliexpress that's actually decent and reliable.
I really have no clue how Logitech expects to get away with this idea of theirs. Maybe they intend to leverage Brand loyalty for it?
Yeah what Arduino brings to the table is easily purchasable electronics and reference material/tutorials written for middle schoolers and not electrical engineers to understand. They invent basically nothing but make things more accessible.
The thing I would need to do the most googling on is the actual XY sensor. I don't know off the top of my head how available an optical mouse sensor is, or if you'd have to build a ball mouse, etc. I have occasionally played with USB HIDs but never for anything legitimate.
I have an idea for Logitech: Go fuck yourselves
logitech's software is trash across the board.
Have their MX keyboard and their logi+ software regualrly craps out making the function/special keys unusable until i log off/back on. Sometimes WHILE im using the keyboard.
And their gaming stuff is no better. Many times just having the logitech g suite software running means my mic will randomly stop working, if i remove the software the headset runs fine.
Their hardware is solid, but there is a 0% chance i would pay for their software.
I use their G Hub to remap my mouse buttons and sometimes my config just gets ignored and I increase mouse sensibility instead of pausing the music
Give autohotkey a try instead. I was able to get rid of the Logitech software because of it.
I've found that's because their mice will go to sleep and upon first waking they'll briefly use an onboard profile before switching to the G Hub profile. This is also why it might feel like it has a different DPI briefly or different light settings for just a flash. The only way to fix this is to use their totally separate OnboardMemoryManager software to change the onboard settings while running G Hub. It solved this issue for me and it's infuriating that this isn't built into G Hub...
Interesting, I'll give that a try before switching to something else entirely. Thank you.
Try just directly using something like xmodmap. You want to interface with your OS as much as possible really, especially to get rid of the "need" for shitty software like this.
I used to swear by their K350 keyboard unified with their mouse, so much so that I bought the exact same models at work. After 10+ years and key prints rubbing off one of them started to get choppy...and around the same time the other did as well. Since they don't make them anymore and are pure Bluetooth with connections I had to find a refurbed one on Amazon. And even that one got questionable after a few months.
I will stop using a mouse and get really good with hotkeys rather than pay a subscription.
Tiling window managers and vim keybindings are your friends
Nah, emacs keybindings are better for things like window managers, and I say this as a vim-o-phile. Use emacs-style keybindings for anything interactive, use vim-style keybindings for text.
I do this as much as I can already, but certain tasks have no hotkey in aware of :/
Gonna be trapped in a VM forever when my mouse dies.
Then they'll make you get a keyboard subscription...
Logitech has an idea for a “forever mouse”
Great, my money is good to go. I'll pay big for something that's easy to keep clean and doesn't have that horrible sticky rubber after a few years.
that requires a subscription
I'm out.
This was my reaction too when I read the title, complete with curiosity about what they mean with "forever".
Forever: until we decide that we no longer want to maintain the product, rendering it useless and forcing you to by whatever we replace it with
In other words: They want me to never buy a Logitech product ever again. Fuck you greedy corporate shitpiles!
I don't want a hardware that always needs updates. Are they stupid?
Here's my rule of thumb:
if it connects to the internet, it should receive security updates
if it doesn't need to connect to the internet, it shouldn't, and it doesn't need updates
Mice are firmly in the second category. In fact, I think cars are in the second, and any features that need internet access should go through my phone.
The problem is ALL of the other subscription services available now are thriving even with all the massive price hikes this just invited companies like this to jump on the bandwagon. It's ridiculous how nearly everything has some kind of subscription service...
Well, libratbag doesn't.
How exactly are software updates supposed to extend the life of a mouse?
I get that theoretically with a subscription, they could offer to replace your mouse if the hardware broke. (Sortof like an extended warranty that you reup every month or year or whatever. Not that that isn't a scam, but I can at least see how it could maybe look good on paper to certain people.) But that has nothing to do with software.
If the software breaks due to a software problem (and, be honest, how many people in the history of the world have ever had a mouse break due to a software problem?), I'd think it would be unlikely you could get an update to the mouse. And if the hardware breaks, the chance that it can be fixed (or even worked around) with a software update seems negligible.
Are they thinking with software updates they'll make it continue to support newer wireless communication protocols that don't exist yet or some BS like that? Not that that makes sense either.
Am I missing something or is the BS in this idea more evident than in most?
That's exactly the point I don't get. Every single mouse I owned, I've replaced it because something physically broke. My previous mouse (Logi btw) was replaced because the scroll wheel and middle click stopped working, no software or firmware update would amend that!
some of their higher end mice let you call specific functions of popular productivity software, like using the scroll wheel to change the brush size in Photoshop for example
(and, be honest, how many people in the history of the world have ever had a mouse break due to a software problem?)
Many moons ago, in the dark ages of Windows Vista, I had a laptop where the trackpad stopped working permanently after a specific Windows Update.
Haha more like a never mouse
It really feels like they developed a revenue stream prior to developing a product. All we've heard is some "Ai features" would be a subscription service, but their software has been preety universally mid at best, and AI is starting to see some backlash. We are seeing companies try to cram AI into everything even when it has no purpose being there. I get the feeling that companies are starting to catch onto this AI investments have become ridiculously expensive and have provided nearly zero additional value to their products and services.
It really feels like they developed a revenue stream prior to developing a product.
That's what everyone big and well bribed in with regulators and such does today.
This is obviously true.
Not that a commercial company shouldn't do that.
It's just - what exactly are they going to sell? What need are they going to fulfill, what bottleneck are they going to widen, what river cross with a bridge? For customers, of course.
As a Linux user, I don't even know what features their software has, nor do I particularly care. If it points and clicks, I'm happy.
What I want from Logitech is to make mice that point and click more reliably, and ideally make them repairable. I hate throwing out mice just because of a double-click issue when I could just replace a sensor or something.
Here's my proposal:
make a handful of base models with varying core features (wireless, low-latency, lots of inputs)
sell parts like shells, sensors, PCBs, etc that customers can replace on their own - no need to replace a mouse because you don't like the feel, just get a new chassis
there is no step 3
I really hope there aren't people stupid enough to buy or even want that.
Side question since this concept is obviously rent seeking... Why is there not a market for premium custom mice like there are for keyboards?
All the mice over the ~$80 range seem to only be gamer mice or focus on adding more and more buttons. Why aren't there options that are customizable or more premium?
I get that no one wants a solid machined aluminum mouse but surely there is something more premium than adding more buttons.
Custom keyboards took off because of mechanical switches. Back in the day people wanted mechanical switches because they last longer than membrane ones, and so you wound up with a bunch of companies producing relatively easy to manufacture mechanical switches. Those switches all felt and sounded a little different so you got people who wanted a specific feel and sound and it grew from there.
There hasn't really been the same push with mice because even really cheap ones work really well. Optical sensors are way harder to produce than key switches, and while there are a few different ones on the market other than dpi and polling rate they kind of all act the same - it kind of either tracks right or it doesn't. There's no differentiation unlike switches that are "tactile" or "linear" or "scratchy". And because of size restrictions you can't really have the same kind of switches as keyboards use for the buttons. And unlike the really niche keyboard people who do their own PCB and machine their own case, making a good mouse on your own from scratch is way more difficult. They're weird shaped and it's much more difficult to change things like optical tracking algorithms compared to macros on a 40% keyboard. You can do a run of 100 super niche keyboards and make it work, but just the injection molds for one mouse mean you need to make 10000, which stops it being a project and makes it a business.
There are premium mice manufacturers, but in general they either are going super light, super ergonomic, or super functional - and honestly they have a hard time competing with a company like Logitech that can produce really similar features for a fraction of the cost and have a decent reputation to boot.
This concept should be expanded to every industry to show the idea itself is unscrupulous.
When subscription services is shown it should alert consumers to predatory practices
It's trackball that are premium in fact
This shit is so absurd. I've had to replace several mouses because of the scroll wheel, until I began opening and saw that it was basically programmed obsolescence that was easy to fix. Logitech has seen how rampant programmed obsolescence is in cheap mouses and is basically taking advantage of it.
My issue is double-clicking. I would like it to be much easier to replace switches.
I've found liberal amounts of contact cleaner to solve inadvertent double clicking.
mice
Meece
I live in a heece that's full of meece.
That crazy moose is loose in the hoose
Hehe :)
No thank you, and get fucked.
my forever mouse is a 15+ years old mx518
Right? If it was a g604 I might be tempted...
Luckily I can buy a perfectly decent mouse that lasts forever for £5
As long as it's not that god awful ThinkPad mouse that every corporation seems to give people.
this type of shit should be illegal
Maybe they could, like, put good switches in their high end mice? And building them in a modular, repairable way?
I had a G903 with the wireless charging pad. The switches starting going bad within a year. I tried replacing those switches with higher quality ones, but a ribbon cable broke while getting it apart. The ribbon cable had one end sealed inside a module, so you have the replace that whole thing. Ended up writing the whole thing off and bought a Glorious (which are quite nice).
Won't touch their high end mouses anymore. Their cheap wireless mice are still pretty good and will run on a single AA battery forever (how? I don't know). Why do they cut corners on the high end of the market?
I have 15 year old Logitech mice and kids. They were the reference brand. I recently bought a pebble mouse, because of the dual connectivity. It’s crap
A 15 year old Logitech probably isn't a comparison to a new one Planned obsolescence was a thing 15 years ago but not nearly as widespread as it is now.
Wait is this an onion?
Arent mouse already "forever" mice. Like what goes wrong in them? I've never had a wired laser mouse fail, and the batteries ones I usually lose the adapter or let it corrode before the mouse actually fails
And if anything I only buy a new mouse for aesthetics. Or when their old mouse is grody
The switches eventually fail, but most mice use the same Omron switches and they are easy enough to replace if you know how to solder. The teflon skates wear out too, but you can find replacement for most name brand mice online.
I've had buttons stop working. The mechanism inside that registers the click is a mechanical switch and they eventually die
I had the wheel button stop working on it once, it was still usable, just annoying, when I needed to do a middle click.
Also that happened after a decade of use.
Or when their old mouse is grody
That's planned obsolescence. They cover the mouse in soft touch plastic that turns to glue in 5 years. It ensures that you buy a new mouse every 5 years while claiming they are reliable.
I read that acetone transforms the gluely soft touch coating to hard plastic. I did it to my old Logitech when it got grody and it is still not grody after 20 years.
They cover the mouse in soft touch plastic that turns to glue in 5 years
This is my pet peeve of modern electronics in general. Even my $3000 work-supplied Dell laptop is coated in this soft touch material that will inevitably turn into a gooey mess after a few years 🤦♂️
Also own a second-hand tablet computer that feels disgusting and sticky to hold because the soft touch coating has degraded so badly on it 😭
I fixed a bunch of ThinkPad laptops that were turning into sticky messes, I put a movie on, used a whole bunch of goo off and stripped all of the sticky plastic off of the devices. Now they feel great
By "forever" they mean you will be paying them forever for the privilege of using the mouse. Unless you break it that is, or they feel like they no longer want to support it at which point it will likely become a forever brick.
Ask a razer user if their mouse/keyboard last forever.
Yes, mice are forever mice. That’s the problem, it’s just a one time sell.
I don't know how they think I could afford subscriptions for every object in my life. There's no way
You have several 'backup' organs, just saying.
Well… they don’t think about you at all except for wanting to squeeze money out of you. If that takes literally squeezing you in a hydraulic press they’d do it as long as the penalty was financial (not jail time for the CEO) but also that the penalty cost was less than the profit they got from murdering you.
This is how every company is now, every billionaire. It sounds like an extreme thought, yes, but .. the absolute ultimate greed is also extreme 🤷♂️
To be fair... I read the whole interview a few days ago, she was kind of pushed into this statement. The idea from the CEO was presented as a high-end luxury mouse that you'd treat like a fancy watch you could just repair and never need to replace. The closest we got to Logitech saying this was the interviewer asking if they could ever see a subscription being attached to the mouse and the CEO saying 'possibly' and then implying that it could be something like a maintenance/repair contract so that you would never have to worry about your mouse.
This whole ordeal was mostly just poor form in interviewing where the interviewer pushed the interviewee into a statement that they knew would be good clickbait.
Unless it were like $0.20 a month which is equivalent to buying a $25 every ten years, there's no point.
But they will probably try and charge something stupid like $5 a month or $10 a month for their supreme collectors edition package.
And even then, I'd rather not have to keep paying for a subscription that could stop and brick my mouse at any time when they decide to "consolidate their product offerings" like Spotify did with the Car Thing. (plus, card fees would mean they'd actually be losing $0.05-$0.10 or more off the purchase price every time your card gets charged, at that price point)
Well that means I need to find a new mouse because of them even suggesting this crap. I really like my MX Master. Beefy with some weight.
Or just buy 4-5 now and last the next decade.
Shame there’s no a mechanical mouse movement to create an industry of high quality alternatives we can buy.
There's some OSH designs for trackballs and "ultra light weight gaming mice", not much for the more standard stuff, just like with most mech keyboards, which are primarily for enthusiasts, often with "deck flex" for a "softer bottom out feel" (and shorter life).
I already pay a subscription when I have to keep buying the hardware designed to break. I don't think I've ever had a middle mouse button working for long.
It's so much bullshit and it's getting shittier.
I can vouch for that. For me it's the scroll wheel.
I've been through a Logitech G703 and a Corsair Sabre Pro and both failed the same way. I've also seen it happen to a Razer Deathadder Essential. The shitty mechanical encoder goes janky after a few months and basically makes scrolling unusable, as scrolling the mouse wheel either doesn't get detected or is interpreted as going the opposite direction. Yeah they can be 'fixed' by either blasting air into it which sometimes works for a bit or worst case, soldering on a replacement encoder, but even that's just a temporary fix as it's only a matter of time before that fails too. I can't deal with unreliability like that.
Older mice more commonly used to use optical encoders which tend to last much longer but finding a new mouse with an optical encoder isn't as easy. I finally broke down and got a Zowie the other day which should hold up a bit better in theory and only time will tell. I feel silly spending so much on a mouse, but I just want one that works.
It’s so much bullshit and it’s getting shittier.
Unclear if you're talking about technology, or life.
Hmm.... yes.
I don't understand what you all are doing with your mice. I've had mine for years, and the one before it, years. I only changed because I wanted to upgrade, too.
Meanwhile I'm always on Discord with my buddy complaining that his mouse broke, again. This mf fingers must weigh a fk ton bruh.
I just like to middle-click things. I opened a Logitech mouse once and found out that the bridge that presses the button internally is way thinner than a toothpick and my frail little fingers are stronger than it for inexplicable reasons. :(
lots of people smack their mice on the table out of rage.
Do that a lot, and they will not last very long
I wish it were my unmanageable rage, but it's usually a regular old click that does them in. Maybe I have superhuman strength in my index finger and haven't noticed it.
If it's a G502/702, they've got a very fucky scroll wheel & middle click; it's actually a lemon, but since nothing else works with the wireless pads they're the only options.
I miss when they had good hardware for a reasonable price. Some of my cheap original Logitech laser mice are still going, almost 2 decades later. Obviously not super heavy use as the switches have not worn out, but they've been shifted about the house as other mice break. So certainly not 0 use either.
The tasks have been things like our old media centre mouse died, the old Logi mouse "temporarily" replaced it until we replaced the media centre. It's not been unused any longer than a few months at a time.
We tried buying some recently but the new ones are all optical so they had shit performance and died after maybe 3 months of light use.
Ah yes, the industry first MaaS. What will they think of next. nuclear facepalm
Yeah, maybe work on making their switches not start double-clicking after a couple of years first.
I'm on my third-or-fourth one that has done this to me. Once this one gets too bad (they inevitably do) I am through with them. It's a shame because I really do like their peripherals. The mouse that convinced to keep buying them was an excellent device that lasted a very long time and I only replaced because it was a dinosaur. I used their solar powered keyboard for a decade-and-a-half, too, until I accidentally dropped something on it and broke it. Now, the switches in their mice die on me after a year or two without fail. They've clearly cheaped out on components. Fuck em. Goodbye Logitech. I will not miss their software.
I went down a rabbit hole when my mouse started double clicking wanting to know why, especially compared to older mice that seem to last forever. turns out the switches themselves technically haven't changed or even dropped in quality much over the years, they've always used the same shit-tier switches. many modern mice use too low of a voltage and operate out of spec, and the otherwise good enough switches don't hold up. here's an hour+ long youtube video about it if you want all the details.
it's bullshit that it's necessary, but if you're willing to solder in new switches you can get better quality ones that will outlast the rest of the mouse for ~$5-10.
willing to solder in new switches you can get better quality ones that will outlast the rest of the mouse for ~$5-10.
That might be worth it. I'll have to see if I can find those switches.
most logitech mice use the same switches, any Japanese Omron switches will work (avoid the Chinese Omrons). here's an amazon link to a 2-pack. there's also a bunch of other switch types nearly as varied as keyboard switches, these are what I put in my mouse, but if you're just looking to stop the double-clicking the Japanese Omrons are the way to go.
Oooh. I'm sure I can find those in Korea. Thanks!
I just wish I could find another mouse with the same form factor as the G602/604. That button layout on the side is so nice. I go looking for an alternative every now and then but nothing I've found matches it so I'm stuck. I'm on my third 602 and fortunately it seems to be the charm because I've had this one for several years and it's still going strong but it's certainly annoying that I had to RMA 2 of them to get a lasting one. I also had to do the same with 2 of their headsets. They didn't even have me send the mouse back last time so I have a second one with a double click problem laying around here somewhere I might see about swapping the switch out one of these days. and yea, the software does suck.
the switches are pretty straightforward to swap out, fwiw. fairly large and reasonably spaced pins to solder compared to any other mouse hardware. tbh the disassembly and reassembly of my g604 to get to them was more effort than replacing the switches themselves.
Yea, I actually replaced the spring inside the switch on the mouse with one out of a mouse I "disposed of" at the place I was working at the time. It got me a few more years out of it.
604
That's the one I'm using now. I like the buttons, too. I also find I only really use them in some pretty niche cases, so I can probably do without.
On my 602 I have them set for switching browser tabs, forward, back, copy, paste, right click>save as, and shift. Those get a lot of use. Then I have specific profiles for some games/apps I use. I would miss that a lot if I had to switch.
Oooh, some of those sound like a really good idea. I'm only using mine for forward and back in browser, but next tab sounds good. Copy and paste, too.
The annoying thing is that fixing the double click is stupidly easy. Years ago, I got frustrated with that exact problem (after a string of 3 mice that each lasted only a few months); so I opened one up and soldered on a random capacitor I had lieing around.
Capacitors like that cost literally less than a penny, and are no more complicated to install at production time than any other component already on the circuit board.
I didn't know it was a capacitor. I thought it was bent springs. I managed to fix one once by opening up the switches and bending the springs back, but it went back to double clicking within a month, and the process was not easy. I've got huge hands, and those switches are tiny.
The actual difference between a working new mouse and a failing double click mouse is in the button itself (mechanical parts are almost always the problem).
However, it is not some exotic failure mode. All mechanical switches have a "bounce", where the contact makes and breaks a few times before settling into the connected position. Switches are typically designed to make the actual contact spring loaded (which is the origin of the click sound you here). As they age, this mechanism degrades, making the bouncing problem worse.
However, this is a well understood problem that any electrical engineer should be familiar with. One solution is to install a filter capacitor. Now it takes longer to switch between the on and off state, so the inherent bounce in the switch is smoothed out to the point where you cannot detect it.
They probably did testing with a new switch, and decided that they didn't need to include any explicit debounce component, ignoring the fact that the switch would degrade over its lifetime.
So, the capacitor can mitigate the spring weakening. Good to know. Replacing a cap is probably much easier than taking the switches apart and bending the springs.
I’ll pass
I have mice that I bought 35 years ago that still work. I had to replace the buttons on one I got 20yrs ago, but it’s a daily driver and the switches are hella cheap and like a 5min solder job. Make them socketed and it’s now a forever mouse. Done.
The site apparently doesn’t resizes images in a smart way.
Or these mice need a diet.
That's a $130 (US, I'm assuming) mouse. Looks dope, though
$100 - $135 Canada style monies.
+$27 for shipping to New Zealand. So up $160CAD....very expensive for a mouse, but not as crazy as some gaming mice.
Low supply / small batch, with open source software and (it seems) hardware. Logitech MX Master 3S is $140 CAD, and it's fully closed source. I'd say their price is in line with these types of premium mice. BUT it's too much for mouse anyway lol
This is awesome. Totally open source mouse. You can 3D print new pieces, you can update the QMK firmware with your own custom firmware, you can change the buttons....
Company that makes Mice: Hey, what if we actually built a good mouse!
This is why Chinese knock offs are winning.
Not because of price, but because of shit like this.
This is moronic if we let this nonsense continue how long until we have to subscribe for a microwave, tv, hifi, salt grinder etc.
Stop giving these things money please.
An idea for a mouse I will never buy in a million years
Really, I'm not against this model if it were simply a low monthly fee to rent hardware and have it perpetually fixed and maintained. For a mouse I couldn't imagine more than $1-2. I would feel good paying that knowing that the mouse wouldn't go onto the trash heap when it stopped working well.
But of course that's not what they are thinking. They are thinking you still pay an exorbitant up front cost, plus you pay an exorbitant subscription on top of that.
plus if it ever breaks they're 100% just swapping a new one in and deleting the old one, it's not cost effective to repair a fucking mouse lmao.
Yes the idea of fixing is less compelling for a mouse than other technologies. But I would still feel better if I knew they did fix just the part that was broken rather than chucking the whole thing out.
i can see the appeal, but it's also a mouse, so i would rather it just not be built like shit from the get go, but that's me.
That or be built and designed to be repairable, that way i can fix it, or someone near me could fix it for me, something like that is also acceptable. I'd be curious whether the shipping and man hours prior to and post to fixing the mouse would actually incur more cost and waste than just, deleting it from existence.
it would need to be a damn low monthly fee, I paid like 20$ for my razer deathaddr on sale(I know not Logitech), and it's going on year 7 or 8 with daily use no issues, I expect I'll have to replace it soon but, in my eyes even 1-2$ monthly is too expensive for a mouse and only would really be good if you tend to go through a mouse a year. but any of the more expensive mice will outlast what you're paying on a sub
ofc that's assuming it's not like you stated in your last line
Yeah, even my $50-$60 logitechs will probably last me at least 5-10 years so even $1 would be steep but would be nice for example just to get a new case as the rubbery stuff starts wearing off which is something I'd probably just put up with otherwise.
Tangential: Is there any community for mice akin to the mechanical keyboard community?
Would love to buy an alternative but every time I do any research it boils down to "razer or logitech" with everything else being orders of magnitude shittier.
"Oooh! we wanna help the environment! Look at how green we are! It's gonna last you a lifetime. Such quality. Such emotional investment into your personal mouse!"
Bitch! You are just inventing stupid ideas about how to turn a hardware company into a service company, because you know that is where the money is.
lmfao. At one point the Logitech mouse driver for MacOS was a 1GB download. They want me to pay for that shit???? gtfo.
It was a mouse driver in a windows XP VM. Really saves on development costs that way.
I'd rather just spend a few coins on a cheap mouse every 5-7 years which don't require a subscription to use and also don't bother me by asking me to update them either.
forever subscription, you say?
I’d be more willing to pay Logitech for a subscription to never have to touch their software again.
Even assuming that I wasn't put off by having a subscription for a physical object, how could it possibly be financially viable for me to do that.
It would be cheaper for me to simply buy a new mouse every 4 or 5 years, and realistically I don't replace my mice that often. It's a mouse they don't really get to be that expensive even if you go for all the optional bells and whistles.
Yeah that's the point at the price point they have in mind it's definitely not viable
Oh no, anyway. Glad I never touched their peripherals because they're overpriced like Razer and other bigger companies.
clicking away with my knockoff OEM reliable gaming mouse
Imo software update for Mouse is not that necessarily crucial unless you had nasty bugs like Cooler Master during launching their mouse. My endgame mouse is MM712 and happy with that👍🏼
Also you can build your own mouse though iirc may be harder than building DIY keyboard (sc: built custom macropad for college project).
Vance Packard warned us, in his book, The Waste Makers.
"Forever subscription mouse"
To be fair they only said having a subscription for the accompanying software was a 'possibility', not that it would need one, and that it would be likely to be in the ~$200 price range, and with upgradeability and repairability in mind, as well as reliant on software updates.
Honestly depending on how much they lean toward the subscription and/or software update reliance having a mouse designed to last a lifetime and be upgradeable and repairable would be nice, even at a rather higher price point.
They already have a forever mouse - its called Logitech MX518 - at this point its over 18 years old, and beside some small paint deficiencies it has no other issues. And it was used quite heavily - it survived years of intensive button mashing in Diablo2 and many other games...
Hilarious. Logitech’s software has always been an afterthought and now they want me to pay for it? Goooo fuck yourselves. I had to sell a perfectly good keyboard and mouse because their stupid g-hub is harder to navigate than a g-spot.
It kept doing updates and every time it did, it would clobber all my macros and bindings and basically factory reset. I had a txt document on my desktop with all my configs so I could set them back up whenever it decided the configuration gods required a sacrifice.
.....I feel sorry for your girlfriend/wife.
Go on, tell us how you work the spot, G Man.
You basically have to go behind the clitoris and stimulate it from the back while working it from the front with your tongue.
Damn you got a lucky mouse
Almost spat out my food, thanks
Our boys dick looks like the lower case letter 'u' well done
🤷♂️ My girl just lays on top of me and rides up and down along me, and that seems to do the trick. Not every time, mind you. But that's the position that does it, if it happens.
Which is freaking great for me because I love that position. 🤤 Lots of skin on skin.
For hours.
Hours! Then you ain't hittin' it, son.
My girlfriend doesn’t have one, teehee 🤭
G-hub also doesn't work on Linux, which is actually a massive advantage. I use Solaar with a couple of shell scripts and it's amazing. (edit) Actually it's a Python app, so it might even work on Windows.
I've also had to blacklist the HID++ kernel module because high-res scrolling on a loose, mushy ratcheting wheel is awful.
I started boycotting them when they started forcing a program to be downloaded, installed and run automatically on any pc running Windows 10 just by plugging a Logitech mouse/keyboard in to the USB port.
It installes through Windows Update, and is called Logitech Download Helper.
I am fine with Windows Update supplying and installing drivers, but using it to deploy program is scummy...
So now, I am on Xtrfy mice and Ducky keyboards.
G Hub doesn't work with my old trusty G11 keyboard either. Since it's both required for Logitech's newer peripherals and also requires uninstalling the old Logitech Gaming Software which would reduce the functionality of my keyboard, it effectively banishes any future consideration for Logitech's peripherals.
It's basically moot since I run Linux now, but I don't fancy the quality of Logitech's products either these days. It's a shame since their stuff used to be really solid. My X540 speakers are as old as my keyboard (16 years) and also refuse to die.
!fucksubscriptions@lemmy.world
Oh man I was hoping this would be a sub for alternatives to subscriptions, rather than just pointing out that everything is going to a subscription model.
It's not against the rules of that community to post alternatives. I suspect the community members would love that.
Alternative to subscription based mouse.......any other fucking mouse. Hell, I'd rather use that piece of crap they sell at walgreens for $15.99. It looks like crap, has only 2 buttons, is wired, but it doesn't have a damn subscription.
are mice not supposed to have only 2 buttons????? (excluding scroll wheel)
Mine has left click, right click, scroll wheel, back, forward, and a programable button which I use to switch windows.
I got two like that from China for about 2 bucks each, shipping included.
Nowadays a shitty 15 cent microcontroller comes with built-in USB hardware support and you can use the manufacturer's libraries or even Arduino to make it talk as a keyboard or mouse with any computer (which doesn't even need drivers since support for it is built-in) and it's actually the mechanical stuff that's the most expensive bit.
There really is no reason or need to endure this mouse subscription shit.
I like my Intellimouse Pro. I haven't had a single issue with clicking or scrolling for as long as I've had it (5+ years?). It's a bit pricey, but it works well. I've spent more replacing Logitech mice in the time I've had that one.
My Halo account name is fuckmandatorysignins@personalDomain.com
Fuck you Microsoft, fuck you Logitech, if the Internet goes down, I'm fucked...
I always give “companyname@personaldomain.com”
That way datasets are harder to correlate and I know who leaked 😝
That’s what I’ve been doing since 2002. If I get spam, I set up a forward to their customer service.
Lol! I need to start doing something like this when one of those email addresses eventually ends up in a breach. :D
Be wary though, it might get your domain blacklisted for spam. I’ve been lucky so far.
Good to know! Thanks for the warning. c: My default course of action will likely be just disabling the old alias and making a new one.
Oh neat, I think I might subscribe to that community.
Wait a goddamned minute
A comment on the article: "I will go back to a command line before I pay a fucking subscription for a mouse."
A mouse is not a complex device. African countries can produce computer mice. I mean, using USB requires paying for the license and circuitry for the USB controller, which is why I hate USB for simple periphery, older interfaces solve the problem better. Anyways, they can produce USB mice too. They can even easier produce PS/2 mice.
Damn, that's pretty racist. You know I come from an "African country" that produces Mercedes right, or like, did the first heart transplant.
Im not sure what you're trying to infer by what you're saying, like we're all some backwards ass fuckwits with 0 ability to do anything? Fuck, we used to produce our own RAM at a stage. Nuclear bombs even.
South Africa excluded as a former colonial state.
I live in Russia, I could have written "ex-USSR and African countries" so that you'd not feel offended. Would have the same meaning.
Point being having actual electronics production and not assembly.
The irony of somebody from Russia calling anywhere else a shithole is just profound. Don't you guys have to pour water in your toilets to flush them? The rest of the world has indoor plumbing mate, even Africa.
Anyway everyone knows that China produces all of the cheap crap anyway, so why wouldn't you go at them?
Are you high or something? Why would we?
I would expect an entire continent to have some variability.
China produces all of the crap. Without the "cheap" constraint.
Russia is a shithole
Not in every dimension, but in that of producing computer mice yes it is. Which is all that is relevant to this conversation.
By the way, I know that sub-Saharan Africa in general is becoming better very fast, and that Sahel has record population growth, and that Africa as a continent has bright future.
While Russia may hope for that only after a fucking revolution.
These are just irrelevant.
Isn't USB like...a mandatory standard now on all devices?
It's complex enough if you are making some hobbyist device.
I'm imagining some world with production of anything related to personal computers being as decentralized as that of hand screwdrivers.
In that context USB is complex.
USB is better for modern computing since it doesnt operate on an interrupt basis, like PS2, that's the problem with PS2, USB is polling based, so it always calls, which also means it's a lot more versatile and flexible, because you can just call and receive whatever the fuck you want from it.
If you were to use PS2 today, you would likely see a significant performance impact.
Apparently nobody understood in which context this was said.
I meant a Star Wars Expanded Universe-like or solarpunk-like or some other imagined future (but with that element of utopia) world where computers are produced as widely as screwdrivers, are more modular and interoperable and competencies are also more widespread, and where computing is radically simpler due to these two requirements. Because you can't have TSMC fabs everywhere.
USB is by far too complex a protocol for this when you don't necessarily need it.
Also many motherboards still have PS/2 , no significant performance impacts, you might have mixed something up. Anyway, from a computer mouse you don't need much.
it's mostly a legacy thing, either industry boards which are used with windows 95, or boards that just include PS2 because, features™
well, part of the problem is that in order to handle mouse inputs, the PS2 calls an interrupt which stops the entire cpu and forces it to focus on the user input, until it kills it likely over a cycle count metric, and then returns back to what it was doing, though perhaps this was back in the day when interrupts were more common, i wouldn't be surprised if modern PS2 is just conversion into USB lmao.
you can argue that USB is complex, and it's not all that complex, it's just serialized data transmission, the benefit of it's "complexity" being the massively increased transmission bandwidth compared to something like serial, which is like 32kb/s historically.
Yes, I know. I should clarify that all this was in the context of some imagined future sustainable computing with decentralized production and a bit of luddism.
As in "how would we live in spacefaring future if the PCs we could have were all comparable to Amiga 500".
that's definitely an interesting thought, i would figure it's probably the most primitive source of communication, I.E. directly managed serial, or probably ethernet, which has an extremely broad range of applications, and standards, from anything from coaxial cables and ring networks, to twisted pair serialized transmission and switched tree networks.
I've already got a "forever mouse".
I plug it in, it needs no updates because it's a fucking mouse.
I was intrigued by the idea, I was like, "oooh a modular mouse where it could be a trackball or vertical mouse or multi-sensor components with obvious replacement parts that they'd sell to make it easy on repair"!
Then I saw software and I'm like wtf? do I look like I need something else to Crowdstrike me? "Can't work today boss, credit card didn't update my mouse subscription hang on...."
corporate brain rot
Uh, what would I be paying for, exactly? I don't really see what Software support a mouse really needs, as long as it doesn't ship buggy. Also, I've been using my (Logitech, funnily) mouse for 6 years now, and if you ignore the few scratches it has gathered, it still works pretty much perfectly.
Also, if their solution for a longer lasting mouse really is repairability, isn't that just their way of saying "we designed our other products to be thrown away"?
You would be paying for the privilege of using a Logitech mouse of course!
The company has to grow indefinitely and you my friendly consumer are the back on which they will walk to do so.
Don't worry I'm sure they'll never acquire smaller and successful manufacturers that risk undermining their profit structures.
You've had more luck than us. My wife went through two Logitech G305s in like 2 years, so I switched her to a Razor DeathAddr and she's been much happier.
At work, I use macOS so I went with MX Master 3 and had constant issues with the thumb button not working. It's better now (I guess their SW improved?), and ironically I had far fewer issues with my Triathlon (when I WFH), which is much cheaper.
On my personal devices (Linux), I use Microsoft Intellimouse Pro. It has been solid for over 5 years. I plugged it in and it just works. The only thing remarkable about it is how little I think about it, it clicks, scrolls, and reads input consistently. If Logitech could do that, I'd probably buy more of their stuff, but I've mostly had issues.
It's a MX Master 2S, funnily enough. I still have a over 10 year old working M705 Marathon, on second thought, that I had once bought for my laptop. Had to open it up and bend the mechanism for the left click back into shape once, but no Problems besides.
Make it repairable if you want it to last forever.
I think cleanable is more important.
I had a Razer Diamondback for like 20 years, and let me tell you, the insides of that were not a pretty sight when I took it apart to work out why the mouse wheel was glitchy. Two decades of crumbs and pubes and assorted hand gunk.
Plus the rubber tends to get a bit tacky after a while, and I'm not sure of a good way to clean that.
I think ten years is a decent lifespan for something I use all the time like that. More is a bonus, but I'm happy to replace after that time.
Mice seem to be a stagnant tech, not sure I need another one for the rest of my life.. if I could fix middle wheel click and replace parts like the rubber side that has worn away.
Cleaning is maintenance, a part of repair in my eyes 😊
It's like TEL9 (a piece of technology that is so perfected, that at this point there's no further improvements that can be made to it, see the paper clip, TEL10 is literally obsolete technology like the bow and arrow). The weird thing is there are companies out there that still seem to think that they can make money off of TEL9 tech.
No one thinks they can make big bucks off of paper clips, but CEO's brains turn to mush as soon as it's got a circuit board.
That was specifically one of the goals talked about in the actual interview and the CEO spent a lot more time on that than the topic in the headline.
Lol I actually had to check to make sure this wasn't published on April 1st. Missed joke opportunity, this is hilarious
This is so absurd. The only updates peripherals need are firmware bug fixes. And it's a standard that these updates are free. Having subscriptions for hardware is kinda dystopic tbh
From the podcast:
You know why on average people spend so little? Because a mouse is just a mouse. It doesn't need to do anything besides controlling the cursor. It doesn't need a "dedicated AI button that launches Logi AI Prompt Builder" (which is just a ChatGPT wrapper btw)
I don't want to be that one person that just complains about capitalism under every post, but things like this make it hard. We have already perfected the design of a mouse. But every year publicly traded companies need to make more money than in the previous year, so let's add subscriptions to everything. And also AI, because investors love it
actually how i understand that model, the subscription would not be for the "hardware" (which you would still have to 'buy' and pay for all of its repairs by yourself) but only for the software which would actually block you from using your own hardware if you stop paying the then-later-by-them-to-be-definded-price for the 'licence' to use that software, rendering the hardware a useless piece of junkscrap whenever and as long as they whish or their cloud runs on MShitsoft or is maybe ClownStricken, MacAfff'ed, CEO'ed, CTO'ed, Shareholder'ed or such).
That f*up-idea is afaik explicitly NOT a renting model for hardware where they'ld had to make sure that it actually works before you have to pay the rent, but only a licensing software for that only software that is vendor-locked-in on that vendor-poisoned hardware.
As i know myself, i guess i'll discontinue to buy or suggest any of their stuff for a few decades from now, for that "idea" only.
Have a nice(r) day without logitech!
Yeah, apparently the subscription for the mouse would be on top of the upfront cost. I'm honestly baffled that Logitech's CEO thinks anyone would buy it, this feels like an april fools joke
Wait so the subscription literally doesn't cover anything it's just the money I pay to Logitech for no reason?
I just skimmed through the podcast so I might be wrong, but it looks like the subscription would only cover updates to their AI "features":
i believe such happens only bcs society lets people into such positions without checking them to be fit in any way for anything except them having a bank account for receiving millions and a lawyer to check contracts and tell them what they should not say in public and receive parts of these millions in return for changing their customers "pampers".
or maybe that brainfart was just part of a trip on randomly mind altering illegal substances? or maybe a brain tumor? or maybe a brain parasite? or maybe a parasite brain? or maybe just normal capitalism? or maybe a tumor that grows in society?
i guess we will never know for sure.
What can I say? I see "Capitalism bad" and I upvote.
I agree. We collectively overconsume, where are the manufacturers with pride in building quality devices that just work?
I'm a hardware engineer, I'd be embarrassed to release some of the shit I've seen onto the market for public consumption.
The rules are simple: solid state where you can, robust enclosures that can withstand common cleaners & IV exposure, geometry that makes it difficult for those cleaning fluids to get into the electronics. That's it, you've got most people covered with a reliable device to interact with daily. Pinch pennies on the RGB LEDs, not the housing!
Yeah because it's a mouse. What extra features is it going to have if I paid $100.
When companies that sell physical products like peripherals (as an example) try to invoke the subscription model, it just says that they are failing and desperate for profits. Which means that other products are available and better.
I’m kind of surprised they haven’t decided to do what MS does with controller, or smart watch manufacturers do with watch bands. Create unique collectible colors, have a design lab, etc. Let people treat mice like sunglasses. A fashion accessory that you occasionally change or augment for aesthetic reasons.
I don’t need a new mouse ever year, but I might be down to change it’s shell.
Please don't. we already produce and waste a lot of plastic as it is
Except their mice are built better and last longer than any of the popular gaming brands. I've owned 4 logitech nice in my life and that would be every mouse I've owned since 1995 and only one of those actually died. People complain about their razer mice lasting 3 years and then go out and buy another one as if that's normal meanwhile you can easily get 5+ years out of a logitech mouse.
I have owned 3 G203 mice (never again) and they have all failed the same way, with the left mouse button switch failing and causing double clicks/inability to select anything without resetting.
Quality must depend on which model you get.
I only go for their higher end productivity mice so I can't say much about their gaming gear. It seems like gaming mice, regardless of the brand, typically have shorter lifespans. Either that or gamers are just more vocal when there are issues.
5 years isn't a long lifespan.
Only one ever died on me (brother spilled beer on it) and that was after 6ish years. The rest were upgrades to newer models. My current mouse (mx master) is coming up on 8 years and I'm debating between replacing the battery or getting a newer model but it still works as well as it ever has.
I used to only buy logitech, but having a $125. mouse freak out after a few years, and I never game, that's sad.
What the actual ever living fuck happened in their brain to create this thought
Endless meetings all focused around creating value for shareholders at any expense
Capitalism
That's just it - his brain is in a state of decay.
They're putting fentanyl in the cocaine now.
I think she's a her in this case.
I only saw "exec" in the description, mb.
I will learn to build a mouse and write my own damn drivers first.
I actually know how to do this off the top of my head and you don't need to write a driver for it, you could simply use an Arduino Micro.
The Micro (and other Arduino-compatible Atmel ATMEGA 32u4-based microcontrollers) have native USB support so they have a library you can import that will work with generic USB keyboard/mouse drivers. It would be up to you to rig up the sensors and buttons, make a case and write a little firmware.
Nice! Thank you!
Coming from the same side as you, in my experience just about any microcontroller that includes USB hardware support (which is very common even in the stupidly cheap ones) has software support for acting as a mouse or keyboard, not just via the Arduino framework but also in the manufacturer's libraries.
This is because the comms for that stuff in USB is an USB standard called USB HID (stands for Human Interface Device) which works not just for mice and keyboards but also for stuff like joysticks, game controllers and so on.
Meanwhile on the computer side, also because of all of this being standardized, support comes include in the OS and no drivers are needed. In fact even back in Windows 7 when you might need to install a driver, all that the "driver" was, was a text file telling the OS to, for a USB device with a specific ID (USB devices identify themselves using a two number code), use the OS' built-in USB HID support.
Nowadays the difficult part in making a good mouse or a keyboard is the mechanical side, not the hardware or software.
Unsurprisingly you can buy a basic mouse for 2 bucks from places like Aliexpress that's actually decent and reliable.
I really have no clue how Logitech expects to get away with this idea of theirs. Maybe they intend to leverage Brand loyalty for it?
Yeah what Arduino brings to the table is easily purchasable electronics and reference material/tutorials written for middle schoolers and not electrical engineers to understand. They invent basically nothing but make things more accessible.
The thing I would need to do the most googling on is the actual XY sensor. I don't know off the top of my head how available an optical mouse sensor is, or if you'd have to build a ball mouse, etc. I have occasionally played with USB HIDs but never for anything legitimate.
I have an idea for Logitech: Go fuck yourselves
logitech's software is trash across the board.
Have their MX keyboard and their logi+ software regualrly craps out making the function/special keys unusable until i log off/back on. Sometimes WHILE im using the keyboard.
And their gaming stuff is no better. Many times just having the logitech g suite software running means my mic will randomly stop working, if i remove the software the headset runs fine.
Their hardware is solid, but there is a 0% chance i would pay for their software.
I use their G Hub to remap my mouse buttons and sometimes my config just gets ignored and I increase mouse sensibility instead of pausing the music
Give autohotkey a try instead. I was able to get rid of the Logitech software because of it.
I've found that's because their mice will go to sleep and upon first waking they'll briefly use an onboard profile before switching to the G Hub profile. This is also why it might feel like it has a different DPI briefly or different light settings for just a flash. The only way to fix this is to use their totally separate OnboardMemoryManager software to change the onboard settings while running G Hub. It solved this issue for me and it's infuriating that this isn't built into G Hub...
Interesting, I'll give that a try before switching to something else entirely. Thank you.
Try just directly using something like xmodmap. You want to interface with your OS as much as possible really, especially to get rid of the "need" for shitty software like this.
I used to swear by their K350 keyboard unified with their mouse, so much so that I bought the exact same models at work. After 10+ years and key prints rubbing off one of them started to get choppy...and around the same time the other did as well. Since they don't make them anymore and are pure Bluetooth with connections I had to find a refurbed one on Amazon. And even that one got questionable after a few months.
I will stop using a mouse and get really good with hotkeys rather than pay a subscription.
Tiling window managers and vim keybindings are your friends
Nah, emacs keybindings are better for things like window managers, and I say this as a vim-o-phile. Use emacs-style keybindings for anything interactive, use vim-style keybindings for text.
I do this as much as I can already, but certain tasks have no hotkey in aware of :/
Gonna be trapped in a VM forever when my mouse dies.
Then they'll make you get a keyboard subscription...
Great, my money is good to go. I'll pay big for something that's easy to keep clean and doesn't have that horrible sticky rubber after a few years.
I'm out.
This was my reaction too when I read the title, complete with curiosity about what they mean with "forever".
Forever: until we decide that we no longer want to maintain the product, rendering it useless and forcing you to by whatever we replace it with
In other words: They want me to never buy a Logitech product ever again. Fuck you greedy corporate shitpiles!
I don't want a hardware that always needs updates. Are they stupid?
Here's my rule of thumb:
Mice are firmly in the second category. In fact, I think cars are in the second, and any features that need internet access should go through my phone.
The problem is ALL of the other subscription services available now are thriving even with all the massive price hikes this just invited companies like this to jump on the bandwagon. It's ridiculous how nearly everything has some kind of subscription service...
Well, libratbag doesn't.
How exactly are software updates supposed to extend the life of a mouse?
I get that theoretically with a subscription, they could offer to replace your mouse if the hardware broke. (Sortof like an extended warranty that you reup every month or year or whatever. Not that that isn't a scam, but I can at least see how it could maybe look good on paper to certain people.) But that has nothing to do with software.
If the software breaks due to a software problem (and, be honest, how many people in the history of the world have ever had a mouse break due to a software problem?), I'd think it would be unlikely you could get an update to the mouse. And if the hardware breaks, the chance that it can be fixed (or even worked around) with a software update seems negligible.
Are they thinking with software updates they'll make it continue to support newer wireless communication protocols that don't exist yet or some BS like that? Not that that makes sense either.
Am I missing something or is the BS in this idea more evident than in most?
That's exactly the point I don't get. Every single mouse I owned, I've replaced it because something physically broke. My previous mouse (Logi btw) was replaced because the scroll wheel and middle click stopped working, no software or firmware update would amend that!
some of their higher end mice let you call specific functions of popular productivity software, like using the scroll wheel to change the brush size in Photoshop for example
Many moons ago, in the dark ages of Windows Vista, I had a laptop where the trackpad stopped working permanently after a specific Windows Update.
Haha more like a never mouse
It really feels like they developed a revenue stream prior to developing a product. All we've heard is some "Ai features" would be a subscription service, but their software has been preety universally mid at best, and AI is starting to see some backlash. We are seeing companies try to cram AI into everything even when it has no purpose being there. I get the feeling that companies are starting to catch onto this AI investments have become ridiculously expensive and have provided nearly zero additional value to their products and services.
That's what everyone big and well bribed in with regulators and such does today.
This is obviously true.
Not that a commercial company shouldn't do that.
It's just - what exactly are they going to sell? What need are they going to fulfill, what bottleneck are they going to widen, what river cross with a bridge? For customers, of course.
As a Linux user, I don't even know what features their software has, nor do I particularly care. If it points and clicks, I'm happy.
What I want from Logitech is to make mice that point and click more reliably, and ideally make them repairable. I hate throwing out mice just because of a double-click issue when I could just replace a sensor or something.
Here's my proposal:
I really hope there aren't people stupid enough to buy or even want that.
Side question since this concept is obviously rent seeking... Why is there not a market for premium custom mice like there are for keyboards?
All the mice over the ~$80 range seem to only be gamer mice or focus on adding more and more buttons. Why aren't there options that are customizable or more premium?
I get that no one wants a solid machined aluminum mouse but surely there is something more premium than adding more buttons.
Custom keyboards took off because of mechanical switches. Back in the day people wanted mechanical switches because they last longer than membrane ones, and so you wound up with a bunch of companies producing relatively easy to manufacture mechanical switches. Those switches all felt and sounded a little different so you got people who wanted a specific feel and sound and it grew from there.
There hasn't really been the same push with mice because even really cheap ones work really well. Optical sensors are way harder to produce than key switches, and while there are a few different ones on the market other than dpi and polling rate they kind of all act the same - it kind of either tracks right or it doesn't. There's no differentiation unlike switches that are "tactile" or "linear" or "scratchy". And because of size restrictions you can't really have the same kind of switches as keyboards use for the buttons. And unlike the really niche keyboard people who do their own PCB and machine their own case, making a good mouse on your own from scratch is way more difficult. They're weird shaped and it's much more difficult to change things like optical tracking algorithms compared to macros on a 40% keyboard. You can do a run of 100 super niche keyboards and make it work, but just the injection molds for one mouse mean you need to make 10000, which stops it being a project and makes it a business.
There are premium mice manufacturers, but in general they either are going super light, super ergonomic, or super functional - and honestly they have a hard time competing with a company like Logitech that can produce really similar features for a fraction of the cost and have a decent reputation to boot.
But the Ploopy mouse already exists.
This concept should be expanded to every industry to show the idea itself is unscrupulous.
When subscription services is shown it should alert consumers to predatory practices
It's trackball that are premium in fact
This shit is so absurd. I've had to replace several mouses because of the scroll wheel, until I began opening and saw that it was basically programmed obsolescence that was easy to fix. Logitech has seen how rampant programmed obsolescence is in cheap mouses and is basically taking advantage of it.
My issue is double-clicking. I would like it to be much easier to replace switches.
I've found liberal amounts of contact cleaner to solve inadvertent double clicking.
mice
Meece
I live in a heece that's full of meece.
That crazy moose is loose in the hoose
Hehe :)
No thank you, and get fucked.
my forever mouse is a 15+ years old mx518
Right? If it was a g604 I might be tempted...
Luckily I can buy a perfectly decent mouse that lasts forever for £5
As long as it's not that god awful ThinkPad mouse that every corporation seems to give people.
this type of shit should be illegal
Maybe they could, like, put good switches in their high end mice? And building them in a modular, repairable way?
I had a G903 with the wireless charging pad. The switches starting going bad within a year. I tried replacing those switches with higher quality ones, but a ribbon cable broke while getting it apart. The ribbon cable had one end sealed inside a module, so you have the replace that whole thing. Ended up writing the whole thing off and bought a Glorious (which are quite nice).
Won't touch their high end mouses anymore. Their cheap wireless mice are still pretty good and will run on a single AA battery forever (how? I don't know). Why do they cut corners on the high end of the market?
I have 15 year old Logitech mice and kids. They were the reference brand. I recently bought a pebble mouse, because of the dual connectivity. It’s crap
A 15 year old Logitech probably isn't a comparison to a new one Planned obsolescence was a thing 15 years ago but not nearly as widespread as it is now.
Wait is this an onion?
Arent mouse already "forever" mice. Like what goes wrong in them? I've never had a wired laser mouse fail, and the batteries ones I usually lose the adapter or let it corrode before the mouse actually fails
And if anything I only buy a new mouse for aesthetics. Or when their old mouse is grody
The switches eventually fail, but most mice use the same Omron switches and they are easy enough to replace if you know how to solder. The teflon skates wear out too, but you can find replacement for most name brand mice online.
I've had buttons stop working. The mechanism inside that registers the click is a mechanical switch and they eventually die
I had the wheel button stop working on it once, it was still usable, just annoying, when I needed to do a middle click.
Also that happened after a decade of use.
That's planned obsolescence. They cover the mouse in soft touch plastic that turns to glue in 5 years. It ensures that you buy a new mouse every 5 years while claiming they are reliable.
I read that acetone transforms the gluely soft touch coating to hard plastic. I did it to my old Logitech when it got grody and it is still not grody after 20 years.
This is my pet peeve of modern electronics in general. Even my $3000 work-supplied Dell laptop is coated in this soft touch material that will inevitably turn into a gooey mess after a few years 🤦♂️
Also own a second-hand tablet computer that feels disgusting and sticky to hold because the soft touch coating has degraded so badly on it 😭
I fixed a bunch of ThinkPad laptops that were turning into sticky messes, I put a movie on, used a whole bunch of goo off and stripped all of the sticky plastic off of the devices. Now they feel great
By "forever" they mean you will be paying them forever for the privilege of using the mouse. Unless you break it that is, or they feel like they no longer want to support it at which point it will likely become a forever brick.
Ask a razer user if their mouse/keyboard last forever.
Yes, mice are forever mice. That’s the problem, it’s just a one time sell.
I don't know how they think I could afford subscriptions for every object in my life. There's no way
You have several 'backup' organs, just saying.
Well… they don’t think about you at all except for wanting to squeeze money out of you. If that takes literally squeezing you in a hydraulic press they’d do it as long as the penalty was financial (not jail time for the CEO) but also that the penalty cost was less than the profit they got from murdering you.
This is how every company is now, every billionaire. It sounds like an extreme thought, yes, but .. the absolute ultimate greed is also extreme 🤷♂️
To be fair... I read the whole interview a few days ago, she was kind of pushed into this statement. The idea from the CEO was presented as a high-end luxury mouse that you'd treat like a fancy watch you could just repair and never need to replace. The closest we got to Logitech saying this was the interviewer asking if they could ever see a subscription being attached to the mouse and the CEO saying 'possibly' and then implying that it could be something like a maintenance/repair contract so that you would never have to worry about your mouse.
This whole ordeal was mostly just poor form in interviewing where the interviewer pushed the interviewee into a statement that they knew would be good clickbait.
Unless it were like $0.20 a month which is equivalent to buying a $25 every ten years, there's no point.
But they will probably try and charge something stupid like $5 a month or $10 a month for their supreme collectors edition package.
And even then, I'd rather not have to keep paying for a subscription that could stop and brick my mouse at any time when they decide to "consolidate their product offerings" like Spotify did with the Car Thing. (plus, card fees would mean they'd actually be losing $0.05-$0.10 or more off the purchase price every time your card gets charged, at that price point)
Well that means I need to find a new mouse because of them even suggesting this crap. I really like my MX Master. Beefy with some weight.
Or just buy 4-5 now and last the next decade.
Shame there’s no a mechanical mouse movement to create an industry of high quality alternatives we can buy.
There's some OSH designs for trackballs and "ultra light weight gaming mice", not much for the more standard stuff, just like with most mech keyboards, which are primarily for enthusiasts, often with "deck flex" for a "softer bottom out feel" (and shorter life).
I already pay a subscription when I have to keep buying the hardware designed to break. I don't think I've ever had a middle mouse button working for long.
It's so much bullshit and it's getting shittier.
I can vouch for that. For me it's the scroll wheel.
I've been through a Logitech G703 and a Corsair Sabre Pro and both failed the same way. I've also seen it happen to a Razer Deathadder Essential. The shitty mechanical encoder goes janky after a few months and basically makes scrolling unusable, as scrolling the mouse wheel either doesn't get detected or is interpreted as going the opposite direction. Yeah they can be 'fixed' by either blasting air into it which sometimes works for a bit or worst case, soldering on a replacement encoder, but even that's just a temporary fix as it's only a matter of time before that fails too. I can't deal with unreliability like that.
Older mice more commonly used to use optical encoders which tend to last much longer but finding a new mouse with an optical encoder isn't as easy. I finally broke down and got a Zowie the other day which should hold up a bit better in theory and only time will tell. I feel silly spending so much on a mouse, but I just want one that works.
Unclear if you're talking about technology, or life.
Hmm.... yes.
I don't understand what you all are doing with your mice. I've had mine for years, and the one before it, years. I only changed because I wanted to upgrade, too.
Meanwhile I'm always on Discord with my buddy complaining that his mouse broke, again. This mf fingers must weigh a fk ton bruh.
I just like to middle-click things. I opened a Logitech mouse once and found out that the bridge that presses the button internally is way thinner than a toothpick and my frail little fingers are stronger than it for inexplicable reasons. :(
lots of people smack their mice on the table out of rage.
Do that a lot, and they will not last very long
I wish it were my unmanageable rage, but it's usually a regular old click that does them in. Maybe I have superhuman strength in my index finger and haven't noticed it.
If it's a G502/702, they've got a very fucky scroll wheel & middle click; it's actually a lemon, but since nothing else works with the wireless pads they're the only options.
I miss when they had good hardware for a reasonable price. Some of my cheap original Logitech laser mice are still going, almost 2 decades later. Obviously not super heavy use as the switches have not worn out, but they've been shifted about the house as other mice break. So certainly not 0 use either.
The tasks have been things like our old media centre mouse died, the old Logi mouse "temporarily" replaced it until we replaced the media centre. It's not been unused any longer than a few months at a time.
We tried buying some recently but the new ones are all optical so they had shit performance and died after maybe 3 months of light use.
Ah yes, the industry first MaaS. What will they think of next. nuclear facepalm
Yeah, maybe work on making their switches not start double-clicking after a couple of years first.
I'm on my third-or-fourth one that has done this to me. Once this one gets too bad (they inevitably do) I am through with them. It's a shame because I really do like their peripherals. The mouse that convinced to keep buying them was an excellent device that lasted a very long time and I only replaced because it was a dinosaur. I used their solar powered keyboard for a decade-and-a-half, too, until I accidentally dropped something on it and broke it. Now, the switches in their mice die on me after a year or two without fail. They've clearly cheaped out on components. Fuck em. Goodbye Logitech. I will not miss their software.
I went down a rabbit hole when my mouse started double clicking wanting to know why, especially compared to older mice that seem to last forever. turns out the switches themselves technically haven't changed or even dropped in quality much over the years, they've always used the same shit-tier switches. many modern mice use too low of a voltage and operate out of spec, and the otherwise good enough switches don't hold up. here's an hour+ long youtube video about it if you want all the details.
it's bullshit that it's necessary, but if you're willing to solder in new switches you can get better quality ones that will outlast the rest of the mouse for ~$5-10.
That might be worth it. I'll have to see if I can find those switches.
most logitech mice use the same switches, any Japanese Omron switches will work (avoid the Chinese Omrons). here's an amazon link to a 2-pack. there's also a bunch of other switch types nearly as varied as keyboard switches, these are what I put in my mouse, but if you're just looking to stop the double-clicking the Japanese Omrons are the way to go.
Oooh. I'm sure I can find those in Korea. Thanks!
I just wish I could find another mouse with the same form factor as the G602/604. That button layout on the side is so nice. I go looking for an alternative every now and then but nothing I've found matches it so I'm stuck. I'm on my third 602 and fortunately it seems to be the charm because I've had this one for several years and it's still going strong but it's certainly annoying that I had to RMA 2 of them to get a lasting one. I also had to do the same with 2 of their headsets. They didn't even have me send the mouse back last time so I have a second one with a double click problem laying around here somewhere I might see about swapping the switch out one of these days. and yea, the software does suck.
the switches are pretty straightforward to swap out, fwiw. fairly large and reasonably spaced pins to solder compared to any other mouse hardware. tbh the disassembly and reassembly of my g604 to get to them was more effort than replacing the switches themselves.
Yea, I actually replaced the spring inside the switch on the mouse with one out of a mouse I "disposed of" at the place I was working at the time. It got me a few more years out of it.
That's the one I'm using now. I like the buttons, too. I also find I only really use them in some pretty niche cases, so I can probably do without.
On my 602 I have them set for switching browser tabs, forward, back, copy, paste, right click>save as, and shift. Those get a lot of use. Then I have specific profiles for some games/apps I use. I would miss that a lot if I had to switch.
Oooh, some of those sound like a really good idea. I'm only using mine for forward and back in browser, but next tab sounds good. Copy and paste, too.
The annoying thing is that fixing the double click is stupidly easy. Years ago, I got frustrated with that exact problem (after a string of 3 mice that each lasted only a few months); so I opened one up and soldered on a random capacitor I had lieing around.
Capacitors like that cost literally less than a penny, and are no more complicated to install at production time than any other component already on the circuit board.
I didn't know it was a capacitor. I thought it was bent springs. I managed to fix one once by opening up the switches and bending the springs back, but it went back to double clicking within a month, and the process was not easy. I've got huge hands, and those switches are tiny.
The actual difference between a working new mouse and a failing double click mouse is in the button itself (mechanical parts are almost always the problem).
However, it is not some exotic failure mode. All mechanical switches have a "bounce", where the contact makes and breaks a few times before settling into the connected position. Switches are typically designed to make the actual contact spring loaded (which is the origin of the click sound you here). As they age, this mechanism degrades, making the bouncing problem worse.
However, this is a well understood problem that any electrical engineer should be familiar with. One solution is to install a filter capacitor. Now it takes longer to switch between the on and off state, so the inherent bounce in the switch is smoothed out to the point where you cannot detect it.
They probably did testing with a new switch, and decided that they didn't need to include any explicit debounce component, ignoring the fact that the switch would degrade over its lifetime.
So, the capacitor can mitigate the spring weakening. Good to know. Replacing a cap is probably much easier than taking the switches apart and bending the springs.
I’ll pass
I have mice that I bought 35 years ago that still work. I had to replace the buttons on one I got 20yrs ago, but it’s a daily driver and the switches are hella cheap and like a 5min solder job. Make them socketed and it’s now a forever mouse. Done.
2 years from now: “Why are Logitech sales down?”
Fucking MBAs
!nottheonion@lemmy.world
I didn’t see Sonos being dropped from my list of companies to buy products from in 2024, is Logitech joining that list this year too?
On the right track it seems!
A brand, that hasn't sold anything with good software/firmware, is trying to make a software-focused product. Peak comedy
Lmao what happens if you don't pay?
Oh Deere!
But the Ploopy mouse already exists.
The site apparently doesn’t resizes images in a smart way.
Or these mice need a diet.
That's a $130 (US, I'm assuming) mouse. Looks dope, though
$100 - $135 Canada style monies. +$27 for shipping to New Zealand. So up $160CAD....very expensive for a mouse, but not as crazy as some gaming mice.
Low supply / small batch, with open source software and (it seems) hardware. Logitech MX Master 3S is $140 CAD, and it's fully closed source. I'd say their price is in line with these types of premium mice. BUT it's too much for mouse anyway lol
This is awesome. Totally open source mouse. You can 3D print new pieces, you can update the QMK firmware with your own custom firmware, you can change the buttons....
Company that makes Mice: Hey, what if we actually built a good mouse!
This is why Chinese knock offs are winning.
Not because of price, but because of shit like this.
This is moronic if we let this nonsense continue how long until we have to subscribe for a microwave, tv, hifi, salt grinder etc.
Stop giving these things money please.
An idea for a mouse I will never buy in a million years
Really, I'm not against this model if it were simply a low monthly fee to rent hardware and have it perpetually fixed and maintained. For a mouse I couldn't imagine more than $1-2. I would feel good paying that knowing that the mouse wouldn't go onto the trash heap when it stopped working well.
But of course that's not what they are thinking. They are thinking you still pay an exorbitant up front cost, plus you pay an exorbitant subscription on top of that.
plus if it ever breaks they're 100% just swapping a new one in and deleting the old one, it's not cost effective to repair a fucking mouse lmao.
Yes the idea of fixing is less compelling for a mouse than other technologies. But I would still feel better if I knew they did fix just the part that was broken rather than chucking the whole thing out.
i can see the appeal, but it's also a mouse, so i would rather it just not be built like shit from the get go, but that's me.
That or be built and designed to be repairable, that way i can fix it, or someone near me could fix it for me, something like that is also acceptable. I'd be curious whether the shipping and man hours prior to and post to fixing the mouse would actually incur more cost and waste than just, deleting it from existence.
it would need to be a damn low monthly fee, I paid like 20$ for my razer deathaddr on sale(I know not Logitech), and it's going on year 7 or 8 with daily use no issues, I expect I'll have to replace it soon but, in my eyes even 1-2$ monthly is too expensive for a mouse and only would really be good if you tend to go through a mouse a year. but any of the more expensive mice will outlast what you're paying on a sub
ofc that's assuming it's not like you stated in your last line
Yeah, even my $50-$60 logitechs will probably last me at least 5-10 years so even $1 would be steep but would be nice for example just to get a new case as the rubbery stuff starts wearing off which is something I'd probably just put up with otherwise.
Tangential: Is there any community for mice akin to the mechanical keyboard community?
Would love to buy an alternative but every time I do any research it boils down to "razer or logitech" with everything else being orders of magnitude shittier.
Bitch! You are just inventing stupid ideas about how to turn a hardware company into a service company, because you know that is where the money is.
lmfao. At one point the Logitech mouse driver for MacOS was a 1GB download. They want me to pay for that shit???? gtfo.
It was a mouse driver in a windows XP VM. Really saves on development costs that way.
I'd rather just spend a few coins on a cheap mouse every 5-7 years which don't require a subscription to use and also don't bother me by asking me to update them either.
forever subscription, you say?
I’d be more willing to pay Logitech for a subscription to never have to touch their software again.
Even assuming that I wasn't put off by having a subscription for a physical object, how could it possibly be financially viable for me to do that.
It would be cheaper for me to simply buy a new mouse every 4 or 5 years, and realistically I don't replace my mice that often. It's a mouse they don't really get to be that expensive even if you go for all the optional bells and whistles.
Yeah that's the point at the price point they have in mind it's definitely not viable
Oh no, anyway. Glad I never touched their peripherals because they're overpriced like Razer and other bigger companies.
clicking away with my knockoff OEM reliable gaming mouse
Imo software update for Mouse is not that necessarily crucial unless you had nasty bugs like Cooler Master during launching their mouse. My endgame mouse is MM712 and happy with that👍🏼
Also you can build your own mouse though iirc may be harder than building DIY keyboard (sc: built custom macropad for college project).
Vance Packard warned us, in his book, The Waste Makers.
"Forever subscription mouse"
To be fair they only said having a subscription for the accompanying software was a 'possibility', not that it would need one, and that it would be likely to be in the ~$200 price range, and with upgradeability and repairability in mind, as well as reliant on software updates.
Honestly depending on how much they lean toward the subscription and/or software update reliance having a mouse designed to last a lifetime and be upgradeable and repairable would be nice, even at a rather higher price point.
They already have a forever mouse - its called Logitech MX518 - at this point its over 18 years old, and beside some small paint deficiencies it has no other issues. And it was used quite heavily - it survived years of intensive button mashing in Diablo2 and many other games...