Kenneth Smith ‘struggled for life’ for 22 minutes in Alabama nitrogen gas execution: Updates
independent.co.uk
“Kenny just began to gasp for air repeatedly and the execution took about 25 minutes total.”
Pretty compassionate way to kill a person.
Once again, the Law in the south is brutal.
I’m curious how they implemented this. The air completely has to be replaced with nitrogen, no breathing in a mix of nitrogen and outside air, no oxygen at all. People that enter confined spaces with no oxygen pretty much just drop and are dead quickly, so this doesn’t sound like they did it right.
They used a mask rather than the more appropriate method which would be to use a sealed chamber that was forcefully evacuated of oxygen and replaced by nitrogen the way the suicide pods are supposed to function.
The problem with a mask is it can't be a perfectly sealed system. The issue with the execution from a logistical standpoint was the redneck engineering they employed and not the actual science behind nitrogen hypoxia.
Please don't come at me, I'm not making a value judgment about the use of the death penalty, I'm just explaining the issue with their shoddy ass methodology.
Edit: accidentally a word.
Edit #2 (YouTube Link): Here is some additional information about why a gas mask is an ineffective and dangerous way to conduct an execution via nitrogen hypoxia from Dr. Philip Nitschke, a leading advocate of the right to die movement and an expert in the field of voluntary euthanasia. He personally examined the execution method being used in Alabama, and told them he felt it would be ineffective for many of the same reasons stated above.
FTR I’m generally against the death penalty, so same, don’t give me grief. I’m of the opinion that if it’s gonna be done, don’t fuck it up.
Ok. So regarding the implementation it sounds like they fucked it up. As you said (and I previously implied) it sounds like they didn’t properly exclude oxygen/remove waste CO2. Kinda hard to believe they fucked up something so simple considering the ton of evidence on hypoxic accidents.
Precisely. They apparently either felt it was fine to cut corners, do not fully understand how nitrogen hypoxia actually works, or a little bit of suffering was intentionally part of the process because it still is Alabama after all.....
Was gonna say, in Alabama you could give them a step by step guide and they'd take shortcuts.
You're assuming they could read the steps in the first place. That guide better include pictures!
Of course it was. They also didn't want to use nitrogen, as there is no awareness at all if done correctly. The drugs they use with lethal injection likely induce panic and pain because they do not induce unconsciousness before it.
Executions have never been intended to be humane. They are punishment, vindication for the wronged. A childish obsession with a horrible misunderstanding of justice.
The big, really big issue, and I hate to say it. Is that, depending on the jurisdiction and laws in place, executions cannot be done by professionals. Most of the people who would know how to do it properly, medics, nurses, engineers, are ethically banned from participating or facilitating executions. Not that this stops them all from participating, and in some contexts some do, but on the general, executions on the USA are performed by completely incompetent individuals.
The more reason to just not fucking do them in the first place. How did they botched it using a mask when almost every single expert on medically assisted death recommends at least a sealed hood.
The people with the most experience with nitrogen suffocation are scientists working with animals. It's the current best ethical euthanasia method.
Very good point.
Hot take, they don't care because they are killing someone. The humanity part of it is completely removed. They care that they did the deed and it didn't work. It should have been immediate. Someone should be losing their job. An Internet search could have prevented this.
Plus it's Alabama. The cruelty has always been the point for as long as they have been a state
I'm willing to bet my left testicle they thought in their lead-addled brain that it would work like a diver's mask. Pumping in gas pushes out the water, so it must also push out the air, I tell you hwat! I don't consider myself to be a very bright person, but even I know that water and air work differently.
I think the bigger issue is that he was aware of when the nitrogen started, so tried holding his breath for as long as possible.
If he had the mask on and it was pumping breathable air, and then at some point switched to pure nitrogen without any warning that would be more humane because he wouldn't know what was happening or when.
In case you didn't know, that should be "shoddy" as in "made or done poorly"
Yes, that is what I was going for, thank you. I have now corrected my shoddy spelling 🙃😉
You shouldn't really need a seal if you have positive pressure. Agree that this was half-assed, though
Why not use like a scuba mask with a tank of nitrogen instead of oxygen? Scuba masks are seemingly airtight.
Or even a collar with a helmet like an astronaut suit. A lot easier to evacuate oxygen from a suit than an entire room.
I personally experienced breathing nitrogen until loss of consciousness under controlled and supervised conditions for training purposes with the RCAF. I was in a room with seven other people who were all doing the same thing as well as instructors who were in here with us for safety.
The point of the exercise was to sit in a room with a mask on, recognize the symptoms of hypoxia when we experienced them and throw a lever that would resume normal air breathing once we had enough. We were given tablets with simple games to play to simulate having our minds occupied on accomplishing some tasks. We knew they were going to switch or air supplies with pure nitrogen at some point to cause hypoxia but we didn't know when it was going to happen. The room was also a hypobaric chamber but it didn't stimulate a high enough altitude to induce hypoxia by itself, it was only there to simulate the environmental signs of decompression ( fogging of the air, percieved drop in pressure, cooling sensation, etc)
We sat there for a few minutes accomplishing the tasks on the tablets (basically paying candy crush) with nothing special going on. Then I noticed that we all started breathing deeper and harder. When I looked around people were also red in the face but strangely did not feel any discomfort from it and some people were even still playing on their tablets without noticing. Some of them threw their personal lever immediately because the point of the exercise was to recognize the signs of hypoxia. But others including my competitive ass wanted to see how far I could take it and if I could outlast others so we kept going.
My breathing naturally got deeper and harder but strangely I wasn't feeling like I was suffocating. I started feeling pins and needles in my extremities. Concentrating on the tasks in the tablet became increasingly difficult and slower. A few moments later I got tunnel vision and my hearing started to sound muffled. These two effects progressively got worse until I could almost not see or hear anything anymore at which point I finally threw the lever just before passing out due to a phenomenon called oxygen paradox where when oxygen supply is resumed the hypoxia symptoms briefly get worse before going away. I didn't even notice passing out. I woke up a few moments later and from my perspective it seemed that time had skipped forward a minute. Had I not thrown the lever and there were no instructors to do it for me I would have died a few moments later.
All of this took less than 5 minutes and I never experienced anything worse than mild discomfort throughout. I don't know how they managed to make it last 25 minutes other than maybe the brain stem running on fumes and keeping the heart beating but there is no consciousness at that point. If I ever had to pick a way to be executed this would be it, provided that it is done correctly.
Sounds like they didn't remove the CO2, just gave him a mask that forced him to breathe nitrogen. Like a standard medical respirator, so he spent half an hour rebreathing his CO2 and whatever oxygen slipped in around the mask.
I know that CO2 is what the body uses to push the sensation of "needing" air. So I wonder if that would have changed his CO2 content from what it would be in just nitrogen...
You did that in a safe situation where nobody was trying to kill you. I don't suffer when holding my breath underwater, but the moment someone holds me down I am going to panic.
Try to hold your breath for as much as you can, and you will feel an very strong urge to breathe. This doesn't happen with nitrogen.
Sure, the person is mad scared, but he's not suffering because of the nitrogen.
It is not fair to liken this to being held underwater. When forced to hold your breathyour lungs fill with CO2 which will cause pain, an urge to breathe and a primal urge to panic because your body has evolved the ability to sense this excess of CO2 to force you to breathe. But when breathing pure nitrogen your body doesn't have an evolved way to detect it besides minor symptoms that you may or may not notice until you pass out.
Yes, the very idea that you will die can be emotionally distressing but this will be common to all methods of execution.
A lot of people are focused on this quote:
Which says to me that from the time they brought him in and strapped him down until he died lasted about 22 minutes and the murderer struggled physically against the restraints the entire time.
This quote farther down suggests from the time they started administering the gas until he died only took a couple of minutes:
Several could be 25, and he could have been shaking from pain and agony, but it seems more likely he was holding his breath and shaking out of fear while trying to fight and get free.
Keep in mind that the first quote is from his anti-death penalty spiritual advisor and this entire article is brought to us by a magazine with an "end the death penalty campaign".
I'm generally anti-death penalty myself, but nitrogen asphyxiation seems way better than electrocution, lethal injection, or hanging. They could probably do it better by using some kind of general anesthesia to render him unconscious and then flood the room with pure nitrogen, or even just get rid if the death penalty all together. Unfortunately this is the world we live in and so fae this is the least bad option we've seen.
How dare you actually read the story!?
I do have some reservations about the idea of a compassionate execution method. It's kinda like tasers. Yes, they are a huge improvement on the alternative, but that also means they get used a lot more frequently.
The death penalty is barbaric.
Tom Scott did a video on this as well.
25 minutes does seem like an awfully long time.
State fucked it up ..dude it's Alabama.
So they fucked it up and then there's a real gem in the article. The jury voted to give him life without parole. A judge overruled that jury to give him the death penalty anyways.
There are no more laws. Only the whims of judges.
Was this based on sentencing guidelines at the time?
But yeah... Brought to you by the same people who convince juries that nullification is not a real thing for malum-prohibitum crimes.
If it was then why even have a sentencing jury? Wouldn't that qualify as false hope torture and as such a violation of the 8th amendment?
The American system of elected judges is bonkers to me. Here in Canada even your basic judge has to be a lawyer in good standing for a decade before being reviewed by a panel of seniors judges and recommended to the position. Their job isn't to play "tough on crime" to the crowd and do everything possible to obtain convictions so that people will like them. Until they retire up here their whole job is to uphold and defend the presumption of innocence so a defendant gets the full benefit of the law and an innocent person is not unjustly punished. Their job is to put into practice the ethics and design of the law as written to afford the humane treatment to other humans by the state and defer the ultimate judgement of guilt or innocence to a jury of peers.
Elections in a system like law create natural conflicts of interest and once someone is convicted once on shitty practice by a judge with no prior qualifications getting that person out of the system is like trying to swim against a riptide. The American system seems primed to create victims of the state, not to uphold justice.
As always, the cruelty is the point.
There are many accounts of workers accidentally entering confined spaces that have been purged with nitrogen and they were all unconscious in seconds. (OSHA records). If it took the prison 22 MINUTES to execute this guy, then they totally botched that execution.
The gas mixture clearly had oxygen still in it. If he's gasping for air for 22 minutes, he was still receiving low amounts of O2.
Yeah I think when an airplane depressurizes at high altitude it's something like 5 minutes and people are unconscious. And people just act like drunken idiots after one minute.
Remember in the event of depressurization, put your own mask on before helping others. Because you're likely to be a just complete idiot that's just getting in the way if your brain isn't properly oxygenated.
But anyway... yeah these guys fucked up. A big problem with executions that people don't talk about is that there isn't a lot of overlap on the Venn diagram of people that are competent enough to perform an execution vs. the people who are willing to perform an execution.
Not defending what they did, but he was probably unconscious. His body was fighting for its life.
The state tells you murder is illegal. Except when the state does it. You can't expect people to follow, "do what I say, not what I do."
It's cruel, it's a reflection of our morals. The death penalty is not a deterrent for murder. The death penalty is hypocrisy. The death penalty is for an unserious society.
But the death penalty is just a symptom of a greater chronic illness we suffer from. We'll just continue to kill ourselves until we find a cure for the disease.
Edit: I see many do not like my wording for state sanctioned murder. If you are reading this and don't understand, imagine if listening to George Bush (can't remember which) tell the tv America doesn't negotiate with terrorists. He's drawing a moral line in the sand with terrorism. That's my point. We need to figure out where our moral line in the sand is with the death penalty, because right now it's all over the place. Do I think outlawing the death penalty will solve our societal woes? No, I do not. The people will demand it until it is reinstated. For me I ask what is the purpose of the death penalty? Does it serve a greater good for a society? Obviously it does not. Americans are murdered all the time, so it serves no purpose.
The cure is education. Unfortunately they are killing that, too.
I want to preface this by saying I am against the death penalty.
The argument
really falls apart when you consider all the other things the state is allowed to do that would be otherwise illegal. The simplest comparison is imprisonment but there are dozens of others.
Exactly, the government has a monopoly on a lot of things, among them violence and as an extent of that monopoly also incarceration.
I can see how some people have a hard time grasping that. I mean most of us would like to have no violence at all, so allowing some that power can seem strange. But how about traffic laws?
You can't get in your car and go 200km/h down the road, which I sometimes would like to, but I hope we all can see how everyone doing 200, where 80 is more appropriate, would be a problem. So we're ok with police/fire/rescue being the only ones allowed to break the speed limits and running red lights, right? It's the same thing.
We've got specially trained people, who have been given strict guidelines for doing stuff ordinary citizens can't do, because the society need something done that can't be done without these powers ... and who have oversight (hopefully), so these powers aren't abused.
I think you are onto something. The cure will be found when nobody is left. /S
Only situation I'd accept a death sentence is if a person indisputably poses a credible threat to other peoples lives, even while imprisoned.
Essentially, anybody previously convicted of murder who then proceeds to (beyond any doubt) attempt murder again. At that point it's not about punishment, it's about protecting human life.
Stop executions.
Imagine actually allowing the government to murder people, dumbest thing we ever allowed 🙄
What about billionaires? Can we at least execute them?
Every day you wake up and think, "There's no way America can get even more fucked up than it was yesterday".
And every day some asshole says "wanna bet...watch this."
USA, USA, USA!
Fuckin Merica fuck yea.
Gruesome.
I'm not convinced the death penalty is worthwhile except to feed someone's wrath.
What if, (and hear me out,) we did for corrections the sort of thing that countries with low recidivism do? Like, not use for-profit prisons with incentive to turn out re-offenders, and not use prisons that turn out hardened criminals that aren't equipped to function in the world without resorting to crime, and actually take the 'corrections' or 'rehabilitation' parts of their nomenclature seriously?
If all we do with our prisons is punish and humiliate (and squeeze slave labor out of) convicts, we're just creating future crime and all that's left at that point is killing convicts at industrial pace unless you can figure out that crime is more driven by poverty than anything else, and the USA just doesn't want to figure that out because it just doesn't want to solve poverty or crime, it wants to make money creating and punishing both.
It is seriously incredible that in the United States prisons are for profit. Healthcare and water are for profit too...
Only 8 percent of US prisoners are in for profit prisons. This is definitely a problem, but it's not the main problem with our justice system, by any means. The way we focus on punishment instead of rehabilitation is a bigger problem than the fact that for profit prisons exist. I mean, getting rid of for profit prisons is a start, but the whole thing needs reform.
The cruelty (and profit it generates) is the point
It's not just the prison system that's fucked. It's society in general.
A former prisoner will always be shunned. No matter if rehabilitated or not, people will always fear a former prisoner (at least in cases of brutality or sexuality) and often even former accused people. That also makes the whole system absurd. If people don't trust in rehabilitation and therefore always push former criminals away and back into one corner or another, we might as well continue/intensify killing them right away; society decided that there is no way back, so why bother. And that sucks.
As someone well versed in inhaling Nitrous Oxide, why not not just use Nitrous Oxide? That'd be a quick way out, and it's cheap, you can buy enough to kill a person on Amazon for like $30. Even if you fuck it up, they're unconscious and feeling nothing.
Same reason they don't just OD them on morphine: those are enjoyable drugs, and we can't be giving our death row inmates that.
There's functionally no difference. The way that they messed this up would have still created suffering because they weren't letting carbon dioxide escape.
The suffocation feeling comes from CO2 buildup, not lack of oxygen. The same issue can happen with nitrous oxide if you don't let the CO2 escape.
Also, and keep in mind I have never killed myself using this method, so I don't know first hand, but, nitrogen is lighter than carbon dioxide, so if the person had 100% pure nitrogen to breathe, and no carbon dioxide, and is maintained with their head near the top of the pod, they would have died fast and allegedly without feeling it.
However, I am absolutely convinced that the people responsible for this execution did research on how to make this method as painful as possible (done right, it is apparently euphoric, and there is NO WAY they would even remotely take the risk of this happening), so they probably went out of their way to have a nitrogen-oxygen mix (like our atmosphere), but with lower amounts of oxygen, and forced the person to stay in a position that would guarantee they would die from CO2 asphyxiation rather than nitrogen.
It is even more inhumane than just using CO2 (as is done in meat "production"), because it prolongs the suffering quite a lot... The whole point of using CO2 on animals is to expedite the process... at the expense of their suffering.
I don't support capital punishment.
But hypoxia in humans is well studied. Unless they were using monumental stupid gas like CO2 (which triggers your breathing reflex) then the problem wasn't the method, in principle.
I wouldn't put it past a execution supporter to fuck it up somehow, though.
This was discussed in another thread. Apparently they did not scrub the CO2 he expelled (which presumably under high anxiety and adrenaline would be way higher) and he simply rebreathed that CO2 back in, mixed with the nitrogen.
For those unaware, CO2 buildup in our blood is what triggers our brainstem to go crazy and gasp for air and convulse and generally have that terrible sense of asphyxiation/drowning. Lack of oxygen does not.
So,.like --- was this guy in a relatively large volume chamber/booth and they just trickled the N2 gas in?
If there was enough volume, it could take a long time for the O2 levels to get low enough for him to pass out... BUT does a human body produce enough CO2 to fill that space to the point of triggering the suffocation response? Seems unlikely...
OR did they just strap a rebreather mask to his face and turn on a few l/min?
Were any specifics about the actual setup published?
I don't have any details about the setup but a CO2 concentration of 0.3% would be noticeable. Humans are extremely sensitive to CO2 so it really doesn't take that much to be a problem.
But if he was in something the size of a phone booth (does America have them) then the volume probably is small enough that the CO2 concentration would add up. A breather mask would actually have been better because it would have pulled the CO2 out (they are designed for diving), if they're not going to pull the CO2 out then they need to increase the volume to something the size of a porta cabin.
Many people do believe it was botched, because the dude struggled for almost 30 minutes. Nobody can stay awake without oxygen for that long under normal circumstances. Hell, the world record for breath holding is ~25 minutes. So he almost certainly had oxygen bleeding in from somewhere, which prolonged his death. Because we all know this dude wasn’t on a world record attempt as a lifelong free diver with years of experience and training.
Cruelty is the point in America.
Use a bolt gun. It is good enough for the cows and pigs it is fast, it probably hurts but likely less time than even a needle.
I suggest starting by testing it out on the person that though slow suffocation for 25 minutes was humane.
another good one. Not quite as theatrical as a canon execution, but a funny idea nonetheless.
Pro Life!
“Pro-life” is just the label they put on it to seem pious. It’s not pro-life. It’s anti-women. With conservatives the suffering is the point.
Look. Execution is inhumane. You can't make it gentle, peaceful, or nice. All you can do is make it quick, which it sounds like they failed to do here. But if the good people of Alabama aren't comfortable with someone struggling for half an hour and then dying, they shouldn't execute people at all.
That said, the person quoted in this article is the executed's spiritual advisor. If I was Smith's spiritual advisor, I'd also be claiming the method was inhumane, violent, and awful. The reality is that it's a lot more cruel that Smith went back into the execution chamber despite them botching the job the first time than that they half-assed the nitrogen asphyxiation. It was an untested method, but every method of execution has a first person to be executed with it.
If your society is bickering over which way it should kill the condemned, you've already ceded the moral high ground. We have already solved execution, and we've had it solved for decades, even centuries arguably. Hanging, firing squad, electrocution, beheading, lethal injection--every method has its proponents and detractors, but every method is to the same end. If you're too squeamish for what happened in Alabama, an alternative method of killing people isn't going to fix that for you. The solution is staring you right in the face, and it's life without parole.
Well said.
Yes, the person who actually cares about the person being killed speaks up for the person being killed. Does that make their opinion less valid than all the liars who said he was going to just pass peacefully, which of course did not happen?
... Yes. Yes it does. It's literally his job. It doesn't make the opinion invalid, but it absolutely makes it less valid than the opinion of a neutral observer. That's just what bias is.
personally i think we should start doing a slightly modified version of the traditional british canon execution.
For those who aren't familar, you strap a dude to the front of a canon, with a dud charge (i don't believe there is a projectile) and then set it off and run. Apparently it's pretty "spectacular" I say we do the same thing but delete the head in the process. Or perhaps add a canon ball because why not.
If we're executing people theres no need to pretend what we're doing is "good"
Too expensive and dangerous. A 2-ton tungsten cube dropped on the head is quick, painless, cheap, and puts on a show that can be cleaned up with a power washer.
We’re going to adopt your proposal but all that’s in the budget is a 45 lb plate from a local gym that closed down. Next execution is scheduled for next week, we hope to see you there!
I imagine that a two ton cube of anything would probably work.
A two ton cube of mattress foam probably wouldnt. But there is literally only one way to know for sure
Let me suggest duck beaks.
Ahh, 2 tons of duck beaks actually aren't heavy enough, actually
Tungsten is very dense. It is space efficient.
Apparently, getting compressed by seawater inside a collapsing carbon fibre tube at a depth of 8kms is ultra quick.
Maybe we should just force condemned prisoners to test-pilot oceangate submarines.
actually, i like this idea. I think someone else mentioned just dropping a massive concrete cube on people for execution. It's a funny one for sure.
Concrete spall would be too dangerous. Trust the tungsten state sponsored murder cube; it is the death of the future, today!
Tungsten is not cheap, also it might fracture
It costs about $1.25m to execute one person currently. 2 tons of tungsten costs $60k spot, $240k with government contract as a one-time purchase. If it were to become damaged, it can be recycled into a new state sanctioned penal murder cube. Given the price of tungsten will increase in value approximately 100% per decade, it is a viable government investment.
Elect me to be king of America. I will balance the budget and establish a stranger economy with a dollar backed by state sanctioned penal murder cubes and other innovative and cost-effective measures. We will all be equal in death and that is a promise you can count your votes on.
Lmao
I can't agree with this, everyone knows you're supposed to reuse before recycle. The murder cube will look way more badass with some chips and cracks in it
You act like running a country is hard. The only hard part of running America is hiding all your bribes.
Hello? It's called "lobbying" and you don't have to hide anything.
Under my administration I will have a website that will clearly show contributions to my throne with one of those donations thermometers that will be updated live and never surpass 7/8th full because the goal is always just a bit more money. Under it you will find about 10 clickbait user-targeted ads, a leaderboard, loser board, and the last 10 donations. There will also be links to my Patreon, Venmo, CashApp, Fansly, and Onlyfans. I am all about transparency and honesty in my rule.
I will use those mandatory contributions to pay for universal healthcare and cutting edge wars of aggression against states with viable economic exploitation possibilities or usable land for battery factories to supply a green infinite rail system that services all major cities without using fossil-fuels to move people and goods.
And it's reusable!
Environmentally safe!
tungsten isn't cheap. look up the prices
and that's a pretty small rod
That is a finished machined tungsten rod from a distributor, not a 15 inch cube from a manufacturer. Metal rod is more costly to machine than billet.
Even extrapolating from that invalid example, volume of it would be 2.36 cu in. Volume of 2 tons of tungsten is roughly 3375 cu in. So the price of a 3375 cu in cube at the price of a 1/2x12 tungsten rod would be $594,028.60. Even at a half million per cube, or about $2 million in government spending contracts, the cost savings over just 2 executions is apparent given the $1.25-1.5m cost of one execution.
The cube is reusable and therefore environmentally friendly. We could end up dropping the same cube on generations of victims of state sponsored penal murders in multiple states instead of having to go through vet clinics or welding gas suppliers for unsustainable forms of capital punishment.
When the actual cost of a state sponsored murder cube is closer to $240k($30k per ton plus government contract pricing), it doesn't make financial sense to continue our inhumane state sponsored murder techniques as we do. In 2023 the prison system has murdered 24 people, which cost roughly $30 million dollars of wasted tax-payer dollars. With the Capital Punishment Cube, we could have saved the tax-payers over $25 million by using only 4 cubes plus transport(<$5 per 1000 miles) and powerwashing($200/hr).
Sentencing the probably rightfully convicted to capitol punishment by state sponsored murder cubes is cheaper, more reliable, more humane, more sustainable, and more environmentally friendly. We owe it to the future generations to enact the changes that will make for a better world; state sponsored penal murder cubes are the change we need to make in order provide that better world for the children.
Capital Punishment Cubes are the future of a humane and green justice system.
Only if they eat glitter as part of their last meal.
When is America going to learn that you can't punish murder with murder? You are literally saying "rules for thee but not for me."
I once saw a slogan on a button at a street vendor in Washington D.C. "Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?" It's stuck with me after two decades.
Is sending them to Australia still a viable option?
Sadly it didn't work out well for the Aboriginals the first time around.
I'm against the death penalty but that's a terrible argument against it. It's not hypocritical to jail someone who was falsely imprisoning their victim. The state has a monopoly on violence, which means a monopoly on punishing wrongdoers, controlled by the will of the people.
The state is allowed to do all sorts of things individual people can't. It has a different role. It taxes, it enforces justice, it regulates business, it provides services that the private sector won't.
What should you punish murder with? Genuinely asking. I see many who want to do away with prisons and switch to rehabilitation. In some cases I can certainly understand that, and I am against for profit prisons, but I also know that a certain portion of society is just fundementally born with dysfunctional brains and no amount of rehabilitation will ever correct that. What do you do with the person who is sadistic and sociopathic in their disdain for other human life?
Lock them away. Because the legal system can and does make mistakes.
Being murdered by the state for a crime you didn't commit is not the sign of a grown up society.
Sounds like a case for a mental institution. Why murder them?
Iran's hanging people in public, America gasses them with private viewing.
For your consideration.
Are you arguing that "at least America is better than Iran"? That's a pretty low bar.
I don't know anything about this other than the guy most have been pretty terrible to be on death row but even a brutal killer should have some rights nobody deserves to die like that
There's also this bit..
He only killed one person too. Seems he killed the wrong person, maybe someone with power/connections. It makes no sense how he gets the death penalty but other murders don't.
I don't believe in the death penalty first off its cheaper just to give someone life Imprisonment and second its morally wrong
... and third sometimes they get it wrong and execute an innocent person. You can release an innocent person from prison when you screw up, but there no undo for an execution.
Fourth, the process of carrying out an execution can get botched. While there are plenty of people that have the necessary skills needed to carry out an execution, nearly all of those people won't do it because of that hippocratic oath thing.
Fifth, it's just a bad look. It feels like it's more about revenge and than justice, and it's important to not get these things confused.
Come on, isn't this america? Why don't they just shoot prisoners?! It's quick, cheap and they love shooting, don't they? Coming up with so many twisted ways to kill a person just to do it differently than the Nazis. If even Belarus is still officially shooting their people, why isn"t the greatest country in the world?
/s because I can't handle this
Mississippi authorizes firing squad if nitrogen hypoxia, lethal injection, and electrocution are held unconstitutional or “otherwise unavailable.”
Oklahoma & Utah have similar rules.
Because guns don't kill people. The NRA said so.
From another report:
Well, that would certainly make things worse for the prisoner and the witnesses.
If that's the case, then he wasn't going to be unconscious in seconds, as it would be expected by breathing the gas.
Instead, he inadvertently caused himself a lot of unnecessary suffering.
That's okay next time we'll just run a tube down his throat! That's not cruel at all!
Or maybe we put them in a room and fill it with the nitrogen gas. Some kind of... Chamber.
It's not really about the nitrogen. Earth's atmosphere is 78% nitrogen already. It's the absence of oxygen that's fatal. Our bodies don't sense a lack of oxygen, just a surplus of CO2. The idea is to remove all the oxygen and the CO2. It's a slow suffocating process but, in theory, the subject would only experience falling asleep. Of course that assumes it's done properly and the subject isn't panicking, neither of which seem likely.
We do it for pigs! Except we use CO2, because it's cheap and apparently we don't give a fuck about pigs.
I'm a rancher and meat lover and still the fact that the slaughterhouse industry chooses to gas animals with CO2 disgusts me. On my farm we dispatch with a rifle shot to the brain, the animal is dead immediately.
Honestly that's the choice I would take if I had to be executed. Though nitrogen gas is fine too, I used to do confined space work and have seen many examples about how you don't even know that you're dead.
No no, too cruel. That would risk them hurting themselves when they fall over. We must strap them tightly in place upside down for security purposes, and then put a tube down (up?) their throat. And if we accidently put it down their food hole
then that's just a bonusthen it was probably their fault for struggling.For the record, fuck the death penalty.
From a purely academic/scientific perspective, is there a reason why they do not administer some form of benzodiazepine to gently sedate the prisoner before conducting the execution protocol? I'm not a medical professional, but I do have prescription benzo and it works miraculously in calming me down and lets me drift off to an incredibly deep sleep.
They’re worried about the prisoner becoming addicted.
pharmaceuticals manufacturers won't sell you this stuff, this already happened with lethal injection
taiwan (?) gets this well, as far as you can get death penalty well. prisoner is sedated with injectable benzos and then shot, no pain, no consciousness at all, very hard to fuck it up and no pretence of subtlety
Medical professionals, particularly doctors who have sworn an oath against causing harm, refuse to take part in the executions. This is partly why lethal injections are so hit and miss. Even if you can get the drugs, the dosages are tricky. IV placement is a skill. All of it being done by untrained individuals leads to a high rate of failure- and that was before the pharmaceutical companies started refusing to supply prisons.
I would imagine that if benzos became part of the nitrogen hypoxia protocols prisons would then have a hard time sourcing them, which is terrible for those other inmates who might need them for other reasons (anxiety, alcohol withdrawal, seizures)
I imagine the "eXpErImEnTaL jAb!" group is fine and dandy with experimental murder.
Flawless logic.
Seriously, fuck USA.
Barbaric.
I'm waiting for the witch trials to restart in the US.
There are people in literally advocating for it and their sycophants support it purely out of the sadistic urge to kill everyone they believe is unworthy of life. See Nick Fuentes, or even to a lesser extent people like Alex Jones who call their detractors traitors. They make it a point to call their opposition demonic and accuse them of witchcraft and blood libel.
IDK about you guys, but in raising our kids we believed it was important that they know where meat comes from. So when slaughtering poultry the kids help out. Maybe apply the same thing here?
If you support capital punishment, then you must sign up for firing squad duty. If less than 50% of voters sign up for firing squad duty, then the death penalty is abolished.
Talk is cheap, conscience is expensive!
How does the delivery method here differ from the euthanasia setup in Switzerland?
IIRC, Switzerland used a hood over the patient, or an airtight pod, that was flooded with nitrogen. It pushed out all other gases so the patient just fell unconscious due to hypoxia without the discomfort caused by CO2 poisoning.
The execution method used a mask, like a rebreather. The nitrogen delivery was inadequate and the convict was able to breathe in some oxygen, either from less-than-pure nitrogen gas, or gaps around the mask.
the swiss method is automated, and calculated.
sounds like there was a guy here goin 'should i have turned the air off?'
Nitrogen gas would be administered through a facemask while the person is restrained (essentially suffocation) ... so hardly a peaceful death by choice.
Weird, everything I saw on Lemmy until yesterday was about how humane and painless this method is, without any suffering. Seems that the tone has changed
as with anything, it can be fucked up... and leave it to this backwoods state to fuck it up.
like if he chose 'firing squad' and the squad start from the legs up. ya know, for target practice. go 2nd amendment.
The nitrogen assisted suicide used a different delivery method. The mistake was using a mask for the execution.
So then what do you use?
Many commenters here have addressed it - use an airtight chamber or pod, and flood it with nitrogen to evacuate other gases. The problem was likely that the inmate was able to breathe in some oxygen through gaps around the mask.
Not enough attention was paid to the delivery mechanism and most of the attention was on Nitrogen gas in the abstract. The lawsuit was a total scattershot approach of throwing everything at the wall in order to delay or prevent this execution. It made it too easy to focus on the things that were absolutely wrong and not examine the delivery mechanism more closely.
And I'll own my part in that - the articles being posted contained a lot of bad science that stood to be corrected. The fact that the mechanism for delivery was a tiny mouth & nose mask that didn't dilute or remove the CO2 wasn't explained - probably because of the clear lack of understanding of how Nitrogen asphyxiation works.
Like, I might argue cottage cheese is safe and humane to feed someone, but when you fire a tub of it out of a cannon into someone's face, I will concede there are ways to do it inhumanely if you are sufficiently stupid or determined, but that shouldn't detract from the argument.
Nitrogen asphyxiation in and of itself is a humane way to go and should be preserved as an option while capital punishment remains. However, it must be performed correctly.
It's humane when done properly, this one sounds botched. Which was probably the point, given that cruelty is part of the death sentence system.
Yeah. Turns out they shouldn't have used an untested execution method. Especially when the judge made a blatantly unconstitutional decision to kill a man anyways. Clearly Alabama has no problem testing on humans.
It's a well-tested method, they botched the methodology.
https://www.ladbible.com/news/us-news/kenneth-smith-execution-euthanasia-pod-creator-193400-20240125
Well shit, they should have at least used a full face covering or a hood at minimum.
I'm still here saying that. Alabama fucked up something that should've been dead simple. Sealed mask with a one way valve, hooked directly up to nitrogen. That or an anoxic chamber for the victim. I'm against capital punishment but if it's going to happen, nitrogen is still the way to go.
Isn't it the same way they let sick people kill themselves? I remember seeing a recent story about someone using a new capsule. They get inside it; it fills with nitrogen; and they drift away.
I'm no fan of the death penalty. Just genuinely interested in whether I'm correctly remembering that the best known voluntary method matches the new execution method.
Apparently they thought they could skimp on the capsule and just use a mask. Cheap and evil.
The key difference is that you need something to be actively removing the CO2, not just replacing the O2 with nitrogen.
Suffocation, as in the choking and suffering, is caused by carbon dioxide buildup, not lack of oxygen.
In humane suicide or confined space accidents, there's no oxygen but you can freely get rid of CO2. It's why workers test before going into sewer pipes and wear safety harnesses and sensors, and setup ventilation hoses. Without them they wouldn't even notice they were dying until they got loopy and fell over.
Method is important. The medium is the same (nitrogen) But putting an "oxygen" mask on someone and plumbing it to nitrogen is a different method than putting someone in a chamber that is sealed and the oxygen and exhaled carbon dioxide* are quickly displaced.
*Carbon dioxide is what makes you feel like you're suffocating.
Look I can't help but feel deceived.
Every single time the death penalty was brought up, nitrogen asphyxiation was touted as a humane alternative. There were always claims that it would be painless, and that the process itself was extremely well understood. It was usually further implied that the reason states don't do this was because death penalty advocates wanted the prisoner to suffer as long as possible.
Yet the second nitrogen asphyxiation became a viable option, the very same people touting it lined up against it. Suddenly it was completely unproven. Suddenly it was wholly inhumane and inflicted suffering.
It's so incredibly obvious that the push for nitrogen asphyxiation was at least in part a bad faith argument by people who are philosophically opposed to the death penalty.
Being philosophically opposed to the death penalty is a valid opinion, but the dishonesty makes me much less inclined for me to take these people seriously.
I don't think I'm unique in that regard. Nobody likes being deceived or lied to.
It seems weird to base your argument on the grounds that a needlessly cruel ineffective and largely incorrect application of something that has long been scientifically and medically understood means the individuals describing how the mechanism is more humane are suddenly sympathizers....?
You should feel betrayed not to deceived. Imagine if someone told you that tires can roll and then they produce a square tire that doesn't roll. Should you really feel deceived that they failed to produce a round tire? That claims that round things roll are therefore wrong?
It's well understood that breathing inert gases causes hypoxia and hypoxia is well understood. This man should have been unconscious in less than a minute.
We shouldn't have the death penalty to begin with and this is a great example why. Because apparently we just can't get it right even when getting it right is it literally as easy as filling a chamber with pure nitrogen and ensuring that it's cycled out...
Nitrogen is a humane route…. if it’s done right. I’m not a capital punishment person but to say it’s inhumane because they fucked up is a bit ridiculous
There's no humane way to take anyone's life against their will.
There are certainly more humane ways. Would you consider drowning or burning someone equivalent to lethal injection? That doesn't sit right with anyone.
there are more humane ways, but killing someone is never humane. Stabbing someone doesn't become humane just because I could've used a wood chipper instead. Killing is never okay, and certainly never humane
That's the point of "humane". It's a sliding scale of "less cruel".
I raise and butcher livestock so I have hands on experience here. At the end of the day an animal is being turned into meat. Just like with an execution, that fact is already set, and "being humane" is about making it happen in the least cruel way possible.
Back in the bad old days the Halal slaughter method was actually the most humane available. You must cut both arteries with a sharp blade. The animal loses blood pressure immediately and is unconscious in seconds. When all you have are sharp objects this is really the best you can do.
However now that we have guns and captive bolt stunners, we consider shooting the animal in the head before making a cut to release the blood to be "more humane".
Part of being humane is also about the humans doing the killing. Do you want to feel like a psycho or like you did the best you could to avoid causing suffering? Most of us would choose the second option.
Bullet to the head is the best execution method I believe, because you can't hold your breath like this guy did and prolong it. There is no dying process, it's an instant transition to being dead.
Good that there is extensive evidence on the effectiveness of (brutal) death sentences as means to reduce crime!
Oh wait...
Every day I wake up and say: "what the fuck, America?!"
Complain that execution is wrong, not that the method was unpleasant.
Why not both?
Let's say you hypothetically agree that the state should reserve the power to execute some people, in very very rare cases. Well cruel and unusual punishment is supposed to be unconstitutional. And all the chemical companies refuse to sell the injection chemical. And testing out new methods is obviously pretty cruel...
Focusing on the unpleasantness could actually get us closer to a place where effectively no capital punishment occurs due to these limiting factors. Without even getting the average American on board with the idea that executions should be banned entirely.
They tortured him to death.
Bullet to the brain next time.
Shit alternatively just strap an explosive to their head. Seems to be working for Russians in Ukraine when they wanna die.
State sactioned torture and murder. This was no execution, this was torturing someone to death.
Ah yes, state sanctioned... murder.. great...
Very Christian of them...
You're right brother. At times like this, I remember Exodus 21:17, Deuteronomy 22:24 and Genesis 9:5-6.
Yeah, God would rather you bash their head against rocks as they're still babies