'A lot of money': Trump owes $87K in interest per day until he pays the fine in his civil fraud case
Former President Donald Trump owes an additional $87,502 in post-judgment interest every day until he pays the $354 million fine ordered by Judge Arthur Engoron in his civil fraud case, according to ABC News' calculations based on the judge's lengthy ruling in the case.
Judge Engoron on Friday fined Trump $354 million plus approximately $100 million in pre-judgment interest in the civil fraud case brought by New York Attorney General Letitia James, after he found that Trump and his adult sons had inflated Trump's net worth in order to get more favorable loan terms. The former president has denied all wrongdoing and has said he will appeal.
Engoron ordered Trump to pay pre-judgment interest on each ill-gotten gain -- with interest accruing based on the date of each transaction -- as well as a 9% post-judgment interest rate once the court enters the judgment in the case.
Thats hilarious. Wake me up when he actually pays the $300 bajillion dollars.
To be fair, Letitia James is now saying she is going to try to seize his assets if he doesn't pay up.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/feb/21/letitia-james-trump-assets-seizure-buildings
I hope she is able to do so. It’s pretty clear that TFG will not willingly pay any amount of money.
TFG? the fucking grapefruit? I have no idea what that acronym means.
Probably Trump Financial Group.
Possibly Tiny Flaccid Gimp
The Fucking Grifter
I like this acronym.
So
Many
Possibilities.
Also: The Foreign Goon; and, the Freaking Gonzo
I read it in a thread a while back, That Fucking Guy.
...the former guy...
A judgement is a judgement.
We also live in a world where having enough money allows one to rewrite the rules as they go.
Yeah it's becoming pretty clear this nerd doesn't have any money
Yeah, he has been coasting by on class solidarity and an army of rabid idiots for a while now.
Nerd? I can't tell if you're 12 or 70. We took back that term and Dump is anything but a nerd.
Oh my god... Does that mean.... that.....
.... Something might actually HAPPEN?
Take that hope behind the fucking house and beat it to death, and then shove it way deep down inside where it can never fucking escape again
...where it belongs!
It would be nice. Who knows? It sure is worth trying and she seems to have been doing pretty well so far.
amazing
Imagine having been president and contemplating bankruptcy to nullify the case/repayment
(I'm just thinking aloud, hypothetical situation... but lol)
While some judgments can be cleared with bankruptcy... Judgements based on fraud are not one of those.
I'm not sure that will absolve him of his lawsuit debts.
Would love to see him go bankrupt, though, that golden facade crumbling.
How would it crumble? He's declared bankruptcy so many times, people can't decide if it's 4 or 6.
In spite of that, dumb asses think he's a financial genius.
Because despite declaring bankruptcy, he'd still owe the $350MM + interest.
Bankrupt morally AND financially.
Seizing his gold toilet would be appropriate, since his finances would be in the crapper at that point.
He won't. His estate will be seized and liquidated and it won't even begin to cover the fine, because the value of everything he owns is criminally overinflated.
He's about to get a huge paper wealth injection with his truth social thing about to go public. Usually you've got to prove certain arduous financial metrics to do that, but the SEC is all, "lulz, you're fine. Go ahead and offer your worthless stock!"
I'll be curious to see who the biggest "investors" are in that stock. This is set up to be one helluva laundry.
And Truth Social can be openly sold to foreign "investors."Is not like campaign money where they have to launder the money first.
It's the same reason he has NFTs and sneakers. It's all to get that Saudi and Russian money.
My brain: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pravda
I wonder if Musk will be a big investor. He buys Twotter and ruins it, while Trump opens a competitor platform. Musk buys stock in that so when it IPOs he rakes in the money, all while Twitter users move over to TS to help it sell at the stock price they want.
It's all make belief, but maybe...
You say that now, but just wait until the cult starts collecting money to pay those overinflated prices for their lord and savior...
I once typed in the wrong number in my electric bill and got my lights shut off. It was like 10 dollars. Somehow when you're rich enough you can just choose to pay things or not.
Wow. That's shit. And if it happened in US, then it is unlikely to be illegal like in the rest of the world.
To him…. That’s a lot of others peoples money.
Other people who will pay for this instead of donating to the RNC. Still a win.
My entire mortgage is his fucking interest payment, but if I stop paying the fractional payments on it -- which this asshole spends in a day on overcooked steaks and too-long ties -- they'd take my house. Start fucking taking his stuff, goddammit.
$10k would entirely change my life. That's it, that's all I'd need.
I could pay off my debt, then I'd be able to afford a roof over my head.
Fucking seriously... There is so much money in these asshats hands that he's dealing with daily interest that amounts to 1.5x my YEARLY income...
the highest salary I've ever seen on a tech job posting was 900K, offered by Netflix for a networking god.
Even that guy would be broke by lunch on day 11.
A person so singularly gifted that one of the highest paying companies on the planet had to offer that just to find them, and this fucking bag of sewer gas has that in his coat he hasn't worn since the 80's. Really makes it easy to justify hating these absolute parasites that contribute nothing and own everything.
Uh, he probably doesn't have it in cash. He doesn't have the total amount he owes ($450 million). He might actually need to declare personal bankruptcy to delay payment.
That's the funniest thing about the GoFundMe set up for him. It's probably just a scam, but even if they send it to him it's nowhere near enough. Every day it goes up it just covers the interest owed for that day!
It makes it really easy to justify more than just hating these people. 😉
Don't ever look up what football coaches at state universities earn.
I've seen 1M job posting by STMicroelectronics for ASIC god.
So this guy would be broke on by lunchtime on day 12?
Visualisation of vast wealth - https://mkorostoff.github.io/1-pixel-wealth/?v=3
Sadly a majority of Americans would find 10k quite liberating and it would be a big help.
I make plenty of money, but the dumb decisions in my past among other things made it so it's always going to debt, but I can't climb out of it because of interest, and now that I've lost my home (staying with in laws now), my wife spends insane money on door dash, and I can't get it through her head how expensive and unhealthy it is, and if she really wants fast food, I can go get it. I will literally cook an entire meal, plate it, then hear the doorbell for door dash.
It's so frustrating and it feels never ending.
That needs to be a serious sit-down conversation. I'd advise against making it about her health because that's more likely to put her on the defensive and ignore everything else. You could print out a credit card statement to show her how much it's costing you and what that money could be going towards. Also, it would be worth pointing out how much of the door dash bill is going to tips and delivery fees. I think the issue a lot of people have with door dash is the lack of sticker shock. You don't notice the impact of a bunch of smaller purchases anywhere near as much as a single big purchase.
That's only 220 pairs of sneakers a day
This could really hurt his other legal cases. Lawyers will be less enthused to represent him if he might go bankrupt on them and not pay the bill.
And they will be more likely to demand retainer at onset. One recently demanded $3M retainer before starting.
Unfortunately, there are always more lawyers stupid enough to work for him and assume they'll get paid. I think the quality on average just gradually goes down.
Which is doing him unfavors. Appealing this is going to be really hard because Habba didn't lodge any objections to any of the evidence, cutting down grounds for appeal.
They are getting paid via "exposure"
You think Habba is getting a lot of work from her exposure?
For her next pivot to right wingnut commentator, yep
Have you heard her talk? She already is. She's a true believer.
I'm not sure how the quality can possibly go any lower
I remember thinking this 5-10 Trump lawyers ago. It can always go lower.
His lawyers have already been quitting left and right. His lead counsel in the E. Jean Carroll defamation case withdrew in January, leaving Alina Habba, who has very little trial experience, to handle the damages portion of the case. Her inexperience got her in a lot of trouble with the judge. She kept violating basic trial etiquette and trying to argue facts of the case that had already been established (remember, Trump had already been found liable and they were just supposed to be arguing the amount of harm to establish damages).
He wasn't going to pay them anyway.
Can we please get a 90 day cap at which point straight to jail?
This is a civil trial. He won’t go to jail, they’ll just start seizing his assets.
I’ll take that too. Looking forward to seizures. Concerned it’ll just never happen :/
Alex Jones still hasn’t paid shit.
I'm pretty sure that's still advancing. Last I heard the families who won against him were moving towards seizing his assets.
They gonna seize his shit too. Either pay up or lose it all
He’s played this weird shell game with his assets and claimed poverty through complex bankruptcy litigations. It’s far from what’s going on with Trump.
And while Jones may have delayed his fate, he’s still not gonna get away with that shit. Those cases are progressing, we just aren’t hearing a lot about it in the news. 
Yea he did one of the things you never do (unless you're Trump), fuck with judges. He started hiding his shit after the judge told him to pay up. They're out for blood.
oh, he was shuffling his assets around long before the judges told him to stop because he knew what was coming.
Seize building
Search building
Find more classified documents
I bet you could even strategically seize ones you suspected might have compromising things?
Seizing assets in a civil case is not the same as searching with a warrant and it must not be conflated. Evidence must only be obtained in a lawful manner with the appropriate warrants. Now if something pops up by chance while seizing his assets that's nice. But the instrument shouldn't be misused for that.
If the property changes ownership (aka seized by NY,) the new owners could authorize a search and it would be completely lawful.
As far as selection of which properties, targeting specific properties may be a bit sus, but i doubt there’s anything opposing it. They have to decide somehow.
I wish they'd start with his headets.
What?
Head-ets, like ass-ets. Took me a sec
There’s no assets in his head to speak of.
Sure there is. It would make a good conversation piece stuffed and mounted on the wall of Letitia James's den.
Or mounted on a pike at the gate of either the White House or the Capitol.
lmao
Does anyone actually believe he's going to pay any of this? I highly doubt it.
If he doesn't, the state has the authority to sell off his assets to recoup the money.
He might not have much cash, but New York real estate isn't cheap.
has that bag of shit Alex Jones paid a fucking dime yet?
Not yet but his creditors voted to liquidate his assets yesterday (?). The gears are slowly grinding.
It's still being drug out. He's lost the case, but tried to hide his assets so that he could declare bankruptcy without actually being bankrupt. The current legal fight is basically to show that he's being a greedy cunt and to force him to sell the assets he has tried to hide.
They have him dead to rights though. He can drag it out, maybe even for several more years, but they will get their pound of flesh.
why would you compare that grifter with this basically identical grifter
Jones isn't really analogous.
Trump won't declare bankruptcy.
True.
Him being super rich is an major part of his self-image.
He has done it several times before.
That's fine. He has a lot of properties tha they can -and will- take. He can still appeal, but that might make it even worse, and in the mean time interest is running.
I believe to appeal he first has to put 110% of the amount owing in escrow
110% plus interest
If there's one thing I've learned about Trump over the past decade, it is that he always finds a way to weasel out and somehow manage to get millions of conservative votes in the process.
They've already said they'll seize his ny assets if he refuses to pay.
That's only $32M per year, seems like not much of a penalty compared to what he's not paying.
A life-ruining amount of daily interest for a normal person is even a blip for a fake, likely broke billionaire.
Until he goes to jail, that interest and that fine isn't going to matter to him. He can just ride it out until he's dead.
They need to give him a maximum of 4 months to pay it off or he goes to prison.
Maybe he'll get Epstiened in there and we can be rid of him for good.
No, they need to just start seizing assets immediately once the deadline is reached.
Letitia James has made it absolutely clear that is precisely what she will be doing. 
So that he could use not just his life, but also his death to irrevocably harm our democratic norms? Nah, let him hie in hospice while some nurse treats him like the tiresome burden he always has been
I just hope the dementia holds off so he knows and understands how much he's suffering. It's still going to be nothing compared to the suffering this piece of shit has caused so many others.
He's not broke, but he's also not as wealthy as he claims. The wealth he does have is all tied up in real estate assets, which again aren't worth as much as he likes to claim. That's what this whole case was about.
I'm still confused on this one. So he claimed his real estate was worth more than it actually was to try to get better loan terms, the bank never bothered to look at the property at all (normally they have someone assess assets like that or other things that don't have a clear fixed value), they gave him the loan, he repaid it and both he and the bank were both happy with the result? Who was defrauded, then?
I barely grasp it too but I believe what you stated is half of the issue. The other half is that he claimed to the irs that the same building was worth significantly less in order to pay less taxes. Ergo he lied to both the bank and the government.
Also I'm not actually sure if he finished paying the bank, even if he had a perfect payment record so far if he decided to stop paying and they had to sell the building they wouldn't necessarily get all of the loan money back because the building isn't worth what they loaned him based on his false claims, assuming I explained it in a way that makes sense.
The fraud is the act, whether or not it was successful. It’s not just a crime when he fails, the bank doesn’t have the assets they were promised, and the government has to bail them out.
The more confusing thing is that the bank just took his word for it. When I got my mortgage refinanced in 2021 they didn't simply ask me what I thought my house was worth. They made me pay for someone to come look at it and take pictures of it.
The crime was against the state of New York who has an interest in people believing New York has a free and fair financial market and that fraud is not tolerated.
The bank WAS also harmed. They were taking a bigger risk than they were being paid for. They would have asked for MORE interest if he'd been honest.
Yes, and that's illegal whether anyone was actually hurt or not. Because it could potentially cause a lot of harm to both the banks and the government that would have to step in if the banks can't cover the potential losses. That then gets passed on to the tax payers. And it's not like he just did it once and said he was sorry. He did it repeatedly for decades, and shows no indication that he intends to stop doing it in the future unless someone holds him accountable.
We don't give people speeding tickets because we think they ran over a pedestrian 5 miles back. We do it to try and get them to stop before that happens.
I can't imagine 87k per day.
Can I get this in a better metric like number of trump jumps per mooch?
87 cofefes per hectamooch.
Ahah you misspleeled it
That’s more than I make in 3 years. In one day. But anyone thinking he’s going to pay anything should go buy a bridge. This is America, people. The most corrupt place on earth.
Criminals run the country, and criminals protect each other.
I'd give up my avocado toast AND soy frappucinos for that kind of money.
At least 5 Hamberders
Don't worry guys. His supporters will give him money. I hope anyone with trumpy parents is cool with not getting any inheritance.
His fundraising has kind of fallen off, I understand the donations aren't keeping up with all this money going out. It's hysterical honestly, dude is prob going to die a pauper and ruin his entire legacy which honestly he deserves after what he did to this country.
Woe to the person who is going to have to scrub the shit and piss off that gravesite.
Jokes on you, i already wasn't getting an inheritance
So you are saying they are now taxing stupid?
I love that for him.
I wonder if this will just be another OJ Simpson situation where he owes money but fucks around paying it and the courts never enforce the ruling.
Will this ruling prevent him in any way from taking public office?
That's $87 000 per day that's not being spent on campaign advertising and RNC activities, so it may be effectively stopping him get elected in a sense.
It would be worth more than that to people who want to get him elected, and he probably has friends in russia who are willing to spend much more than that on campaign advertising on his behalf.
Nah, it's another one of those "there's no laws about this because we assumed no one would elect an overtly corrupt grifter" type situations.
Nope.
In a well ordered world it should, but apparently he can even run if he's in prison...
How do you think it plays out if they are successful in their attempts to get trump not to be able to run for election?
Nikki Haley runs instead?
Only big business likes Haley. Do you not think the MAGA people wont get angry and could rightly say the election has been tampered with?
The MAGA people will write in "Trump" no matter what
But then he will still lose, and they will rightly feel that the election was tampered with. Do you think they will just accept that?
What are you talking about. This is a due justice process, with a sentencing. I was just curious if such a sentencing would prevent taking public office.
Its due process in an unjust way. Do you think that all of these cases just happen to pop up when he was running for president? Its using the government to attack a political rival.
No, it's not the one about the 14th amendment. You know this.
Not everyone knows the difference. Or they could be asking if the financial impact could disable him from running.
Fair. I assumed more bad faith than may have actually been present. I've seen so many Trump posts I forgot that some people are living the good life where they aren't seeing multiple lawsuit posts per day...
Also I heard some rumors that a few dozen internet users are from other places than the US and may not have a clue about laws and rules in a foreign country - or may have only heard a few bits and words and are trying to make sense of them.
Other places than the US? Where would they even come from, space? /s
It’s all Ohio.
https://youtu.be/WoAfTheymqg?si=ECOdLF5lqzk4HQ6c
There are literally dozens of us
That's exactly why I asked.
Will his GoFundMe keep up with the interest rates? How many Mooches will the rubes last?
Less than one. They’re already broke paying his lawyers and, like, voting for corporations and shit.
A Mooch becoming a unit of time and Sean Spicer hiding in the bushes were the best part of his presidency
I believe it's currently in excess of the interest. I don't expect it to stay that way.
Will Papa Putin help him out with this?
Absolutely. Putin is said to be a trillionaire. The difference between Trump's net worth and Putin's is "about a trillion". Putin is just going to purchase the US by bankrolling Trump and the Republican party.
Net worth ≠ liquid cash. Just like Elon Musk never has the cash for the shit he says he’s going to buy. Putin is not some 4D chess player.
Yet, Musk (along with a bunch of financiers) did actually pay 44Bn for something…
It doesn’t take a 4D chess player to realize that .05% of one’s net worth would be a good ROI to own the President (again). Putin has such a deep grasp on not only his own country’s wealth, but it’s also no 4D chess move for Putin to shell-company a few tens-of-billions here and there all over the world before invading his neighbor. The hard part is that Trumps finances are being watched pretty closely, so getting the rubles to him without raising suspicion is the 4D chess part.
The man is stuck in a political-suicide quagmire from being surrounded by yes men. His politically savvy days are behind him, he’s flailing desperately while attempting to hold power. I do not envy the position he’s in, but, dictatorship will do that. I will admit, he used to be extremely politically adept, but, I highly doubt the intelligence services around him anymore.
I do hope you’re correct!
NARRATOR: He never paid it.
Why should he, when he constantly tries (and somewhat succeed) to find other people that are paying for him?
Pretty sure that rat will figure it out.
That’s a lot of shoes.
Reading up on them, apparently they made 1000, 10 signed by el cheeto himself, and they were priced at $400. So even assuming he makes 100% of that as profit (which he might if the manufacturer didn't insist he pay up front for them), that's still less than a business week worth of interest. Though the price of those 10 signed could add another day or two, depending on how ridiculous he went with the price.
Damn that's like 5 seconds or almost a full American of debt a day https://www.usdebtclock.org/
When the fuck was the last time you got an interest rate of less than 1%? Look at that shit, that's barely a million over the year, like 0.03%.
Going down in $87k flames is nice, but i'd be happier if it were bigger, that's what I'm saying.
It's a 9% interest rate according to the article.
EDIT, and your math is way off:
$87,000 x 365 = $31,755,000
$31,755,000 / $355,000,000 = 8.95%
$87K x 365 is almost $32M.
=/= Enough
dumpster fire?
hmm and more.
Let's see America doesn't have much IN Country FIGHTING unlike other countries ie: Europe, Russia, Iran, Iraq,etc
figure it out before blasting it out and making yourself Ugly
simple mind indeed! but i did think better of that line and removed it, and now your comment doesn't make any sense in addition to being flag-waving jackoffery.
good choice! enough said! but flag waving? so anyone stands up for America is Flag Waving? I guess you are Anti-USA good job! that is all!
Frankly? Yeah. The USA mostly fucking sucks these days. The American dream has become to move to Europe. We still have a chance to turn it around but that chance is being squandered.
you sound like a LOSER bye kid! get a F* clue kid. Look at other countries, how messed up they are! Iran/China/Korea/Japan go figure, go back to grade school punk
Good. Grab em by the property. They let you do it, y'know, if you're AG.
https://youtu.be/TcpHOpPzgOk?si=dpke1i9NKAQqbOTo
Because these sorts of things never get stayed while appeals are conducted.
Doesn't he need to put up the money in order to appeal?
yes. in order to appeal this judgement, Trump would have to put up between 120-125% of the $355M judgement (to cover the judgement + interest) in order to file an appeal. He can do this in cash, or he can secure a bond by leveraging his assets as collateral. It's unclear whether he has that much liquid cash, and it's unlikely that anyone would be willing to issue a bond for him, especially since any of his assets he might use are marked for asset forfeiture by the State of New York should his appeal fail, as it most assuredly will.
FTA:
(emphasis added)
What happens if he never pays?
They start seizing property
Yes but when?
After 30 days, enforcement mechanisms can be employed. Not only seizing property, but also garnishment of wages, putting liens on other properties, etc. Trump probably doesn’t completely own all of his properties, and some of his other properties may be already mortgaged up to the hilt, so they may not bear much if they are sold. During the discovery, for all of these enforcement actions, we may all find out that Trump is actually completely broke. That would also be fun.
Wait, other debts take priority over collection by the state?
some, maybe. it’s extremely complicated. and Trump may declare bankruptcy, which would cause his repayments to get reassessed and restructured.
but one thing is certain: Trump will be made to pay. He’s extremely fucked, at least financially. There’s no way now to delay or prevent it.
No. Even says something to that effect that at the end of this article. This whole thing isn't surviving appeals anyways. Absolute shrill hyperbole over interest rates on loans, not even whether or not he'd have received the loan, but on interest rates. Value of properties is debatable....I remember when I last filled out a mortgage application and valued my possessions, valued my old bike at 5000. The loan officer erased that and wrote in 20 thou. This judge would have called that fraud, but the value really was debatable, I paid 4500 for the bike in a different province a couple years before, meanwhile people were asking 18-20k for them on the local internet sites.
Sorry, do you really think your bike is analogous to millions of dollars worth of property?
Did you have an army of accountants with which to determine an appropriate value for said bike?
Way to miss the fucking point
Well one of us sure has.
Um you are completely wrong, he does have to post bond or put the money up in order to appeal.
If you think there is no way to appeal a judgement against you without paying it first, I have a bridge to sell you. Regardless, I didn't say anything about a bond being required, I said he doesn't have to pay it to appeal. He doesn't.
At the end of the article moron.
"While Trump's appeal will prompt an automatic stay of the enforcement of Engoron's ruling, Trump needs to first put money into an escrow account or post a bond in order to appeal."
He cannot appeal unless he puts up the money, and the bitch doesn't have enough money. So his only option is getting it from someone else, which will be hard for him. Maybe Putin will help our orange wannabe dictator out though ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah.. right... When's the last time that actually happened? Not even a Trump jab... Fuck politics.
I'll be back in a few months when something happens
Everyone ITT: "unreasonable and excessive punishment is great as long as it happens to someone I hate"
What’s unreasonable and excessive about any of this?
Because he did nothing wrong. The fact that the left side is celebrating this judgement (and the rape one) tells me they dont care about that justice system, they just want to use it.
If only there were some way to determine whether someone did something they were accused of. Maybe like an independent person to weigh up all the arguments and make a decision. You could have supporters and detractors make their cases.
Yeah, thats the part that is dangerous, I am telling you as a real estate person, he did nothing wrong, and there is not victim in the real estate case, but the person that decided he was guilty believes something wrong or is doing it for bad reasons. Do you understand the danger there?
I'm kind of astonished.
I'm telling you as an accounting person, fraudulent misrepresentation of one financial circumstances is an egregious crime.
This whole "victimless crime" thing is incredibly naive.
Cool, who was the victim? How were they victimized?
As you well know, there is no victim, as in no single person who was harmed. Yet Trump's actions are a crime nonetheless. The whole victimless crime angle is a derivative of a straw man fallacy.
As a society we prescribe a minimum acceptable level of behaviour through laws. When people contravene these laws we impose penalties. There is no requirement for someone to be harmed.
That said, I'm sure you can imagine what would happen if fraud was not a crime. It's just not possible to conduct business of any kind if there is no penalty for fraud.
The apologists are out and about it seems. The rich sycophants I get, wanting lower taxes and all. What I'll never get is being middle or lower class and being so cucked as to defend some bourgeois criminal like he was a friend.
"Temporarily embarrassed millionaires".
My parents are broke. They will always vote conservative despite the benefits going to the wealthy, because they feel like they ought to be wealthy.
There was no victim because he did nothing wrong. Should a person be able to list their house for more than its true value, have someone agree to the price and then apply for a loan?
Of course not.
Should a company be allowed to make up the numbers shown on its financial reports?
No, but that is not what happened. Do you actually understand what they did that was so wrong?
That's exactly what happened.
Because it was literally a victimless crime.
I don't care how much you hate Trump, this is just plain dirty, like kicking your opponent in the nuts in a fist fight.
I dunno. Lying to the government/banks about your finances to the tune of billions of dollars is a huge waste of time and resources, which are paid for by the average taxpayer/bank customer who actually pays taxes and doesn't inflate their holdings. Victimless in the sense that no one was physically harmed, but not harmless.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/01/politics/trump-fraud-168-million/index.html
You're literally cheering for big banks to make extra profit just because you want to stick it to someone you hate. And I'm sure you've also never inflated your skillset or exaggerated your past experience on a resume in order to get a job that would make you more money... right?
So your legal defence on behalf of Trump is, “your honour, who did my law-breaking hurt?”
You’re myopically fixated on a single case, too. Do the other 90 open cases against him somehow bolster your confidence in his innocence here? He’s being “attacked” because he’s a fucking crook. They will win some and lose others, but where he legally fucked up, he’ll face consequences. Period.
“Who’d he hurt?” Ri-goddamned-diculous.
No, that's literally his own defense, I just happen to agree with it.
Imagine you lie on your resume and inflate your experience in order to get a certain job. They hire you and pay you 20% over what you would have qualified for based on your actual experience, but you do a good job and your manager just happy with your performance, and when you leave, they give you a good recommendation for you next job. Five or ten years later, you're just about to make a downpayment for your first house, and suddenly, not your employer, but the government shows up and sues you because lying on your resume is illegal, and they demand you pay all the extra money you earned PLUS interest and fines.
That's sorta how petty this case is. And if you cheer for this kinda stuff, you deserve for it to happen to you.
Here is where the comparison falls apart
How so? The banks declined to sue and said they'd be happy to work with him again.
Who gives a toss what the banks say? They aren't the real victim, rules based society is.
Okay, I hope you never end up breaking any rule in our rules-based society, because I ain't bailing you out.
Being an average law abiding citizen and not an infamous, law breaking billionare, I'm not too worried. See, rules-based societies work great for people who can follow the rules.
Okay, let's do a little thought exercise here, shall we?
Smoking and selling marijuana was illegal for much of the last century or so. Now both is legal in many states. While it was still illegal, many people all over the country were convicted under that law. Do you agree, then, that because what they did was illegal at the time, them being punished was justice being served AT THE TIME, regardless of whether it is now legal?
Should people who were convicted unter the old law be forced to sit out their sentences in full because at the time, their conviction was fully in accordance with rules-based society, or is it possible that rules can be wrong, regardless of how technically legal they are?
Your thought exercise is about something legal that used to be illegal. Has fraud suddenly become legal? No? So what's your point? Your 'lying on a resume' example made more sense, even if it was ridiculous.
Quick question: What are your thoughts on Hunter Biden?
He should probably be in jail, and definitely on some sort of drug rehab program.
Also, you gotta wonder what sort of shitty dad Joe was for his son to turn out the way he did.
So forgiving past crimes with no victims is only for Trump then?
You must see how your scenario differs… It isn’t illegal to lie on a resume, and in this case Trump’s not being asked to give back anywhere near the amount his lies earned him.
Perhaps, but it's morally objectionable in the same way and for the same reasons as what Trump did. You're basically just saying "my crime isn't a crime because it's technically not illegal".
Oh and you're flat out wrong about the last part, because Trump was fined not only the amount of interest the banks lost out on, but additionally also all of the profit he made from transactions that the money helped facilitate. Plus 9% interest.
https://fortune.com/2024/02/19/donald-trumps-355-million-civil-fraud-verdict-what-next/
I mean the definition of crime is literally "an illegal act for which someone can be punished by the government". So it being "technically illegal" is the basis for it being a crime or not.
Cool, I hope you never get caught doing something that’s technically illegal, such as running a red light on an empty intersection.
Either way, don’t expect my sympathy when you get caught.
You run red on 'empty' intersections? Why not just follow the rules...
Not usually, but I’d be lying if I said I’ve never done it.
The fraudulent valuations went both ways. He artificially inflated the values for lines of credit and loans, and artificially deflated the values for the purpose of tax evasion. Letitia James pulled an Elliot Ness on him with this case.
As far as I can tell, this case was only about him inflating the value of his properties in order to obtain more favorable terms on his loan.
If he did also undervalue them for the purpose of paying less taxes, that would be a separate case. And in that case, I wouldn't argue that it was a victimless crime.
The case was about all the fraud involved in the financial statements alongside disingenuous valuations and deed restrictions on his properties.
Why don't you read it yourself?
It says nothing about any alleged tax fraud, only fraudulent financial statements used to obtain a lower interest rate on a loan.
Like I said, if he DID cheat on taxes, that's a different case, and I wouldn't be claiming that there were no victims.
He cheated on his taxes by having the deed to Mar-a-lago restricted to commercial use only while using it and valuing it as if it were a single family residence. It's a massive difference in value when it comes to taxes and that isn't the only property he had deed restrictions or easements on.
Okay, perhaps he did, but that's not what this case is about, is it?
His tax evasion is a significant piece of his fraud. Even if you insist on discounting it, the laws and regulations violated in this case are set up to allow enforcement of fair business practices in New York, and in large part were enacted in the 60's because of how easily businesses were evading the common law fraud regulations. It's less about whether or not there is a victim, but rather about whether or not outside businesses and interests can rely on fair practices and enforcement in New York as a whole.
Who says lying on your resume is illegal? If it was illegal then you broke the law and face the consequences of your actions, the most "conservative" thing you can do: own up to your life choices.
All that said, I personally am "stuck" in the position I'm in because I don't lie on my resume. I don't want to suffer the consequences of my lie.
I didn’t say it was. To be honest, I don’t know if it is, I was just trying to draw a comparison that would be easier to relate to for the average person.
But in doing so you illustrate how you miss the point.
We don’t drag Trump through the courts because we hate him. We hate him for his crimes, and the courts are where we prove them.
Do you hate Biden for his crimes as well? Should he be brought to justice too, or is that different?
If he committed crimes and is found to be guilty then toss him in with the rest of the criminals. I don't think anyone here has an issue with that. The only issue would be with "crimes" that only seem to have evidence in the hands of political actors that never seem to end up in the hands of the justice system so they can actually do something about it, the mysterious hunter laptop that UPS magically lost from the blind repair guy who decided to look into it comes to mind.
Unfortunately in our society we are the only ones that face justice. If you're rich or in politics you get to point the finger elsewhere and cry "unfair bias!" or for the wealthy, just pay a lawyer to make it all go away.
The laptop was authentic, even the FBI has admitted that by now. Stop spreading misinformation.
https://judiciary.house.gov/media/press-releases/testimony-reveals-fbi-employees-who-warned-social-media-companies-about-hack
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/fbi-knew-the-hunter-biden-laptop-was-real-in-2019-irs-whistleblowers-say/ar-AA1cUoyd
The 51 intelligence officials who signed a letter saying that it was "Russian disinformation" have since been identified as part of a Biden campaign operation to help get him elected.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/16/us/politics/republicans-hunter-biden-laptop.html
According to some polls, almost 20% of Biden voters said they would have changed their vote to Trump if they had known that the laptop was authentic (disregard the "false" rating here, that applies to the 53% that was originally claimed. I'm referring to the 19.6% figure they say is accurate, because it likely would have still been enough to change the outcome).
So, now that you know this, what should be done about this? Biden clearly lied to the public and obtained his victory under false pretenses. Seems far more serious of a crime than cheating a bank out of a few million dollars in interest, no?
How about we do Trump first, and then Biden?
Yeah, right.
By "technically" you mean legally. In accordance with the law.
Prove it. And then send that proof to Trump, in sure whatever ambulance chaser is representing him now would interested to have that proof .
It's also legally not allowed to cross an intersection on a red light in order to get to work faster when you're running late, but who's keeping track?
And if fined by a cop nobody would disagree with it.
Yeah, right.
And Trump was caught and fined for his "running of the red light". Stop making mental gymnastics to cover for this rapist.
The police, so by extension tge government
So no proof the judge acted out of malice? Just more bullshit you made up? I'll try to contain my surprise.
I don't know if the judge did, but the AG likely acted out of malice. Just ask yourself who benefits from this ruling? As far as I can tell, the bank doesn't even get any of the money, it all goes to the state. And the Democrat party, of which Letitia James is a member, gets to hurt a political rival in the upcoming federal elections at a critical time in their campaign.
Yes, I know that's not proof, but there's certainly motive.
So now you're saying politicians should only be prosecuted by members of their own party. Go to a doctor, tell them your brain fell out, ask for help.
It's not just the party affiliation, it's also the timing.
Perhaps you should take your own advice there.
Why didn't Trump just not break the law? Why is that too much to ask?
If you rob a bank, then later return the cash... you still robbed a bank, and it's still a crime regardless.
The bank chose to overlook that crime because it made them money, and they want more business. You don't see anything wrong with overlooking a crime for money?
LMAO, I just love how everyone on this site is like “fuck corporations”, “yay communism”, “eat the rich” and “piracy isn’t stealing”, but the moment someone you hate gets caught doing it, everyone’s like “off with his head! How dare he cheat big business like that!”
Hypocritical much?
Not once have I said any of those things. You just see what you want to see and think it's ok to break the rules as long as no one got hurt... but profiting from fraud is a crime. That's the facts and that's why he's paying.
"Yes your honor, my client tried to hire a Hitman to kill his wife. But since the Hitman was an undercover cop, and the wife says she still loves him, there was no victim here and therefore my client is completely innocent."
I think you’re getting a little carried away with your analogy here.
It’s more like, say, you decide to pirate some movies or software because you can’t afford them right now. But over time you become proficient in using the software, and you manage to land a well paying job with your skills. Now you can afford to pay for it, so you decide to clean up your act and pay for a license, and you also buy all the movies you watched for free. None of the movie studios or software companies had to shut down or went out of business because of lost revenue.
Suddenly, there’s a knock on your door. It’s the FBI. “Sir, we’ve been going over BitTorrent logs from five years ago and found a number of movies and software that was downloaded from an IP address we traced to you. Piracy is a federal crime as you know, and we decided we’re going to press charges.” And then they fine you not only the total amount that those items would have cost if you had bought them back then, but also all of the salary you’ve earned up to this date, plus interest.
Oh, and none of that money goes to the movie studies or software companies you stole from, it all goes to the government. Still cool?
I love how in your made up analogy you introduce unnecessary details to make the fictional scenario sound more innocent. "If the fictional analogy is innocent then the thing that actually happened is innocent too" right? Are you actually trying to suggest that self proclaimed billionaire Donald Trump couldn't afford loans?
It's more like, say, you decided physically rob local businesses. Over time you become proficient and thievery and fencing and manage to land a well paying job doing technically legal work. You decide to white wash your past by sending money to all the businesses your previously robbed. Do you think it would be inappropriate for you to be charged for the crimes you very much did commit just because you "paid it back"?
Also, during the trial, you kept insisting that you didn't do anything illegal. Yes, you took things that belonged to other people, but it's perfectly legal because {Insert made up reason here].
Okay, so maybe you CAN afford it but you’d rather use the money for something else. The rest of the analogy stays.
He invested the money legally into real estate, he didn’t buy drugs and sold them or anything like that.
Your analogy still doesn’t make sense, you’re doing the same thing you accuse me of: making it worse than it is in order or imply guilt. And no, he didn’t physically rob anybody, the profits the bank missed out on are purely theoretical, just like the profits a software company misses out on when you don’t buy an app you wouldn’t have bought anyways if you couldn’t have pirated it.
"there was no victim" is not a legal defense. You're trying to compare it to piracy because you're trying to change the argument from "no one was hurt" to "this shouldn't be illegal."
People will argue that piracy shouldn't be illegal, nobody is arguing that fraud shouldn't be illegal. As the judge said: just because it worked out for the bank this time, doesn't mean it will work out okay next time. He did a crime, everyone agrees that it should be a crime, and he needs to face consequences so he and other people don't do it again in the future. It's not only a crime if it doesn't work out for you.
As for no one being harmed: he also undervalued his property to avoid taxes, so the American public was harmed. Hence the DA pressing charges on their behalf.
The bankers testified that they did their own due diligence and did not rely on Trump's exaggerated claims. They knew the figures he gave them were broad estimates and not necessarily correct.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/29/nyregion/trump-fraud-trial-deutsche-bank.html
He didn't default on the loan and paid it back in its entirety, with interest. I fail to see who the victim is? Yes, perhaps the bank could have made more money but if they aren't interested, who got hurt?
That's why I think the piracy analogy holds up, because if you DO end up paying for the stuff you consumed for free at some point, the studios or software companies only have a temporary loss, but they are missing out on potential interest or investment return they could have earned in the meantime, and whatever amount inflation has devalued the money in the meantime.
Also:
If you can pay the fine, don't do the crime.
For anyone confused, LegalEagle did a very good breakdown of the case:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJbgKP-2cFg&t=1331s
Note the timestamp linked where he mentions the harsh penalty from the Judge, and explains that it is due to Trump's multiple previous fraud convictions (Trump Charity, Trump University, etc). He keeps. Committing. Fraud.
"It worked out okay this time even if it didn't the 5 previous times" is not a good defense. Clearly he will not stop committing fraud unless faced with harsher penalties, and the vast majority of the time it is not victimless.
Yeah, okay, I have imaginary lawyer friends too who disagree about the punishment fitting the crime.
https://thefederalist.com/2024/02/23/judge-engorons-inflation-of-trumps-ill-gotten-gains-is-a-financial-crime-in-itself/
Okay, we're tied 1 to 1 here then. I guess will just go to the court's decision for a tie-break.