What are some double standards in society for men ?
For example workplace harrasment by women towards males like touching or groping being ignored because the victim is male but if it where to happen to a woman by a male the male would be fired
For example workplace harrasment by women towards males like touching or groping being ignored because the victim is male but if it where to happen to a woman by a male the male would be fired
Cut bits of a girl baby's genitals: jail.
Cut bits off a boy baby's genitals: An occasion for a fucking party.
And old men can suck on the wound.
Say what ?!? Is this real ?
Yes, rabbi use to suck on baby dicks after mutilating them. Iirc a lot of them stopped doing it after giving a few babies herpes.
One of the early chapters in The God Delusion (Richard Dawkins) covers this.
One subgroup does it.
They also cnut it with a freaky pinky nail
Also to add on to this
Mothers showing pictures of their naked boys as babies, totally fine
Father's showing images of their naked daughters as babies, people go wtf
I wish people didn't show those images at all or even take them reguardless of gender
My understanding is that infant labiaplasty and other female genital cosmetic surgeries are pretty common as well in western countries. Luckily there is a growing protest to these practices on ethical grounds, since they're all medically unnecessary surgeries performed on babies that can't consent to it.
This journal publication seems to put it into perspective decently. It also points out some of the racist hypocrasy surrounding it, like how we classify these actions being done by non-western cultures as 'mutilation' which is unlawful, while classifying ones aligned with our own culture as 'cosmetic' and still allow them.
As a guy who's trying dating again, there's something that keeps coming up that kinda bugs me: talking to women who just put in the bare minimum of effort, expect me to carry the conversation and make all the first moves.
I don't give two shits about traditional gender roles and I'm all about subverting them. However, I think if you're in the same boat but still wanna call yourself a "passenger princess" and expect the guy to do everything, you're kind of a hypocrite.
Just want to let you know that you aren't alone. I have talked to a number of women who advocate for things like DEI and acceptance (which is something I also believe quite strongly in) but often default to preferring more traditional gender norms in dating. When pressed on the issue (not like I'm interrogating them just through normal conversations and getting to know them) they will inevitably say that it is ultimately "just their preference".
What I find so odd about that "preference" is if a man behaves in accordance with the traditional/societal gender norms in the beginning of the courting process, why is it surprising that they do the same thing later in the relationship when it comes to sharing emotional labor or various types of household chores?
I know the below is taking it to a bit of an extreme example but that behavior and "preference" often reminds me the sentiment "the only moral abortion is my abortion". Like I get it, there are a lot of shitty people out there who have no interest in putting in the effort, and they absolutely are not worth the time and effort, but when you do meet someone who is willing to put in that effort, it isn't really fair to treat them like all those other people.
Men are in a kind of catch-22. Women say they want one thing but their actions usually say they want the opposite.
Not really. It's quite easy to understand. They generally want feminism when it benefits them, but traditional gender roles when it benefits them.
I don't blame them though, I also want things that benefit them. But it's a dick move to do it with feminism, which is supposed to mean equality.
It's not equality when they can pick and choose when to be equal.
Isn't egalitarianism the term for equality?
NGL I searched the term. Egalitarianism is about all people.
Feminism is only about eliminating the unfair inequalities between men and women.
Yeah and then you got the "marrying kind" type of guys who cheat on their wife cause shes "frigid"
I've got a theory that women put more effort into dating apps than we think. It's just spread across so many more people.
Oh yeah, I've seen the other side of things through female friends. They generally have the opposite problem as men.
I'd heard about guys doing stupid shit on dating apps like sending unsolicited dick pics or just going straight for sexual stuff and figured it was maybe a "yeah it happens once in a while" kinda thing, because I'd personally never do something like that. But in fact it seems like a large portion of the interactions are just that bad.
So I can understand not putting in a lot of effort initially. Starting with small talk and making sure it's not a waste of your time. I do the exact same thing.
But even after it feels like I've started to establish a rapport with someone, the conversation still can feel incredibly one-sided. It's like, okay, at this point you're just kinda being disrespectful. And it happens over and over again.
Drop these conversations, let them go cold. This person clearly has no affinity with you or doesn't value you. Move on.
Yes, thank you, I never would have figured that out without your brilliant insight.
Unfortunately, because of the aforementioned probationary period at the start of any conversation, it can take some time before it becomes clear that the other person just isn't that interested.
Can I still be annoyed at my time and effort being wasted? Or is it just my fault for being a man on a dating app?
No wonder. Good luck
I mean, I think alittle? Not because of the reasons you think, though, and it's not really 'your fault'. More of a pitfall that most people fall into.
TLDR: ditch the apps and try to get out into more social situations through clubs and sports. The 'right one' will come along when you are more socially able an mm you'll likely make friends along the way (genuine friends are WAY more important for staying sane).
So, tinder specifically objectifies and compresses you into a blurb and some photos - it basically cans you for mass consumption. When you finally get 'bought', you only get a chat box to communicate unless you actually exchange contacts, and the whole thing's kind of terrible in general because of that. I've tried bumble and it's pretty much a similar thing.
There's this thing sometimes called the 'predator/prey relationship model' by feminists, and dating apps explicitly reinforce this model, with the only minor change being that bumble required the woman to open the interaction. The predator/prey relationship makes it so that in our society, dudes are expected to go out, find a random woman they fancy, and 'pounce' them, essentially. Originally, this was quite literal if you have heard some stories of relationships starting in the 40s and 50s where a couple got together because the guy was just constantly unrelenting. This has shifted to being more egalitarian and consensual but still requires the guy to basically peacock to gain the woman's approval. Once it officially becomes a relationship, the woman is expected to be submissive while the man is expected to be dominant. It's a pretty old-fashioned relationship style that still affects modern dating today. Some folks even still subscribe to it.
The better model that I think is more natural is to just go out and find new friends and groups I can participate in. This way, anyone you might date sees you in more context. You get more practice being social, which can be helpful in actually getting someone to become attracted to you, at which point they might actually start putting in effort.
This kind of thing drives me mad.
If we both like each other, why don't we communicate like adults instead of playing some stupid game?
Exactly.
I think the number of women* who are looking for a man to spend time with because she enjoys his personality are outnumbered by women who like the attention they get when they post a picture of the meal her date paid for to Instagram.
*here defined as "adult female humans somewhere between the age of majority and menopause existing in the present day found in the Western, English-speaking world" for those of you who want to so helpfully remind me that women in South Sudan or Mongolia that aren't like that.
Well, then there's another stupid game... "Hey hon' do I look fat in these jeans?"
"Positively rotund. How'd you even fit through the door to get in here? I'm amazed your shins haven't given out under the strain."
Push those """"tests"""" right back down their throats with a second hand toilet plunger.
Same, I am bi, and that is the reason I stopped trying to date women, or anyone who behaves like that for good measure, because some guys try to pull that same stunt.
I want a partner who is as interested and as into dating me as I am into dating them, someone who puts the time in and makes an effort, makes me and my time feel valued, and is also willing to to invest themselves and their time on me, and I don't know if I was just unlucky, but I never found a woman who was into that. But then again, I pretty much only dated teens and women in their early 20s, as I liked dating people on my own age group and it was at those ages that I was actively dating women.
But from an outsider's perspective, now on my late 30s, the straight dating market looks awful, I think I'll stick with men.
I keep hearing horror stories on lesbian dating market, males seems to be doing fine and only group getting along lol
also, all these theories on domestic abuse but don't lesbians have the highest rates of abuse?
They do, according to the studies I have read. And unlike a lot of studies, that default to male violence in straight cases of domestic violence, a lot of the lesbic cases seem to be tagged as mutual violence.
Don't know if it is bias on the measuring bodies, since a lot of people claim female on male violence is not a thing, and that the moment a man strikes a woman, no matter the circumstances, it is male on female. Including a case I witnessed, where a female family member attacked her boyfriend with a knife, he disarmed her and since he bruised her while doing so, he was removed from the house and lost custody of his own daughter.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10751048/
This study found no significant differences in victimization types between same-sex and opposite-sex intimate partner violence for females, and no differences in physical and sexual abuse for males. Small sample sizes might have affected these findings.
I don't see much problem with this. It's one thing to advocate for everyone having greater freedoms to form non-heteronormative-style relationships, and an entire other thing to necessarily want that for yourself. That's what Feminism is about after all, a broadening of accepted lifestyles and freedoms - not necessarily a complete shift to a paradigm that prohibits the previous one. In this kind of case, it just sounds like you are discovering up front that you two are not seeking the same type of relationship, which is good to find out early.
It's kind of like advocating for a bike lane in your city despite you not biking and having no interest in biking. I don't think you're a hypocrite for not using freedoms you advocate for.
This one so absolutely fucking much, holy shit. After a year of dating apps and literally only getting one actual conversation (that didn't go anywhere, but they were very nice) I've pretty much just said fuck it, I do well enough being a hermit I don't need to be dating.
Frankly a lot less stress.
In favor of men: when we get angry, people listen. When women get angry, people stop listening.
Against men: men being around children is seen as suspect. Women being around children is seen as healthy.
Dude. I was at an MLB baseball game about a year ago. It was the 6th inning. I walked into the bathroom while play is still going on. I specifically picked that time because it was the other team at bat, and not their best hitters. My logic was "nobody will be in the bathroom, but nothing will happen in the game either! I'm so smart for going to pee now!"
I walk into the bathroom. First thing I see is a row of about 20 urinals, and deadset in the middle is a 5 year old boy with his pants around his ankles. Bare ass on display. No parent in sight.
I walked in, saw that, walked right back out. Like Aberaham Simpson when he walked into the strip club and saw Bart.
I was like noooooooope. I am NOT going to be in that room when the dad comes in. Even if I'm 10 urinals away. I can wait to pee in the 7th inning, and totally abandon my amazing pee stratagy.
Last thing I need is a protective parent walking in, and asking why I'm in the room with a bare assed 5 year old. Even if nothing happened. I'll just wait an inning.
Your country is bizarre 😅 in europe: who the hell cares? Everyone pees.
No, it's the same way here. People invent these imaginary fears. Same with OC about children in general. Nobody gives a shit or is looking at dads.
Like sure, maybe you hit the jackpot and find the crazy but the vast majority of parents so not give a shit in the states.
The consequences in the US are so severe it's not worth the risk. Just an accusation can ruin someone's life.
🙄👌👍
Said as someone who has never had to deal with it
Because it doesn't happen lol
Take that shit and sell it to someone who hasn’t experienced it
I would ask where the dad is but if its like butters dad hes likely losing a wrestling match somewhere.
if?
Y'all imagine crazy stories. That shit happenes all the time and nobody cares.
Fucking bizarre
I had a girlfriend once and i was absolutely mad at her for reasons i don't remember. She said she would go home. I knew her for about 2 years and she herself said she never even heard me getting loud or angry with anyone. Anyway, after she left for 15 minutes she came back in and started arguing again. I asked her if she could please just leave. But she kept going. I really didn't know what to do, because i didn't just want to grab her and throw her out or anything, so i kept telling her to leave. I went to the toilet and hoped that she would be gone by the time i was done peeing. But she didn't, she came into the bathroom to keep arguing. That's where i totally flipped and grabbed her arm and threw her out and told her to go home.
I can't even imagine doing that to a woman. Like just refusing to leave after i yelled at her for 30 minutes and all she said was: just please leave. Following her into the bathroom to keep yelling at her. I would go straight to jail, while she didn't even really understood that something went wrong.
This happens a lot more than society is willing to admit.
Camera phones are changing this slowly similar with the police and karen issues.
It is now subgenre on youtube. It was weird realizing that some women will just act that way because "wtf is u gonnd do about it, pussy, call the police? Try me!!!!!"
One of the two presidential candidates has five children with three different partners. The coverage of that fact would be very different it it were the female.
This is going to be my new way to antagonize conservatives I know:
ME: Did you know Harris has had 5 kids with 3 different partners?!
MORON: I don't doubt it. She's a whore!
ME: Oh sorry, I meant Trump.
Yeah, he's a good looking stud, what do you expect.
downvoters did not pick up on sarcasm?
Absolutely not. Satire of Trump supporters and Trump supporters are indistinguishable. The ear bandages, the diaper wearing. The complete and utter nonsense they swallow and spout. Being proud of "grab 'em by the pussy" and openly supporting KKK and walking the streets with actual swastikas. There's nothing too extreme to be even remotely too absurd to be true from MAGA. So no, unless you're putting a /s on your fake utterly stupid moronic take Republican opinion, I absolutely can't tell that you're ridiculing them instead of just being that stupid.
Oh no, instead she has step-children so was referred to as a "Childless cat lady" by checks notes the running mate of the opposing party.
The only place to the conservative crowd for a woman to be in is in a single relationship with her own kids. Though I'm sure they'd have a way to gripe about it too.
Men are often expected to swallow their emotions and just "function", while women are allowed and even encouraged to display them openly
That's a funny one because men are celebrated for suppressing emotions and women are penalisd for showing them.
Its sort of crazy how there's no real effort to help people develop their emotional intelligence as a kid or beyond. It should be like no later than grade 1 or 2 where people learn about their feelings and setting limits with people.
So many parents gasp at the idea of their child actually having boundaries that are to be respected because muh dominion or they never learned about it themselves and aren't open to everyone simply being more observant and respectful of them
One reason we chose the school my kids go to is because they do teach about emotions and friendship and so on.
Thats awesome! Super important stuff for being well and a good person to have around for others
Yeah, it is one of the things I love about the district we are in. They are big on EQ and also very inclusive (my kids are on the spectrum, so I like that they actively teach about inclusion).
This is called Social Emotional Learning and is a big thing in the school I teach in, but has big pushback from many conservatives because it talks about respecting people for their differences, even if they are gay or trans or a poc.
There's a huge discrepancy in how people understand the word respect.
The "blindly follow what I say and override all your reactions to the pain it will probably cost" and hold your tongue/bottle your emotions shit needs to die in a fire. That is blind control, it is very different and it means much more work and negative outcomes for all involved.
Love this, thanks for giving such shape to the form I was getting at
Np. It's not mine of course, but unfortunately I don't know what the source is.
Yeah the patriarchy is really just the ruling class using us to suppress each other.
Which is also funny because that leads directly to a lot of mental problems for these men.
I see a change is this trend, but a lot of damage has already been done and it will take quite a while to recover from this.
Unless that emotion is anger. That's the one exception.
Yes! 100%.
Hmmm, I think Kyle Rittenhouse and Gus Walz might have a different perspective. One displayed remorse through blubbering "tears" to play-act out of murder charges and one displayed genuine emotion for a successful family member. Both were pilloried for displaying emotion, fake or real.
Magic Eight Ball says: Concentrate and ask again
Women absolutely are penalized for showing emotion. Socially between friends there is a lot better support, and that is probably what you are thinking of. In a workplace environment though, there can be serious consequences for expressing anything other than congeniality. If you're socially withdrawn you're an ice queen, if you get angry (no matter how justifiable) you're a bitch or a dragon lady. If you're stressed and not perfectly composed you're weak "unable to handle the pressure". I get that men are subject to the same kind of judgments but there seems to be more leeway.
It's not that women are "allowed," it's more so that women are expected to be emotional because they're oh such emotional creatures and of course she's crying.
😏
😔
I would counter this and say any woman with a career can absolutely not show emotion. They’re expected to behave like men, which are in turn not supposed to show emotion in the workplace. It’s less of a double standard and more of a toxic standard.
Commenter didn't say work. It's true in all circumstances.
You recognizing it as true in the work place by understanding women are expected to be like men in the work place. Because men are not expected to show emotions.
Your counter is actually an example.
Well, for one, the ability to freely talk about issues specific to their gender without judgement by ~20% of the population
I was also confused by the amount of downvotes
One that constantly comes up between me and my partner is fashion related. She is very liberal but when it comes to our relationship is the exact opposite. She buys everything from lacy thongs and g-strings to boy shorts underwear. She hates that I as a man wear thong and bikini underwear, too. I’m athletic, lift and workout 5 days a week, and get hot very easily. I like the support and minimalism of thongs for that, but she always buys me boxers which are uncomfortable and bunch up and all the extra fabric and cotton makes me hot and sweaty and chafe. When I bring up she wears thongs just do she doesn’t have panty lines and I wear them for comfort and support she doesn’t understand. She also mentioned she thinks guys wearing thongs is weird but then says it’s so “brave” when gay guys do it during pride. I once called her out and homophobic for assuming it’s a fetishized gay guys only thing and she got mad, but am I wrong?
You're definitely not wrong. If she's willing to undermine or criticize your clothes preference after you've already told her why you like them and you don't want to change, what else is she willing to undermine?
I feel very comfortable sharing with her, especially since I grew up in an extremely conservative area of the south and she grew up in an upper class suburb in the Bay Area in California. She knows when I’m feeling “off” because it manifests in body language she picks up on and tries to get me to share (I.e. when I’m having work or family problems) but it’s been hard to break that “men don’t share their feelings” attitude I was raised with. She actually buys me clothing that is vibrant and traditionally female brands (lulu, Madewell, etc..). That’s why I was kind of taken aback when I first started wearing my thongs around her and she was like “are those women’s panties?” Because they were brightly colored pink pair of a male thong from MeUndies. I explained they are the comfortable for support when engaging in cardio and lifting and she was like, “I don’t like seeing you in them”.
In the same way I grew up in a very conservative area and this is a unique way to express myself and enjoy feeling sexy, I think she grew up in the opposite and that’s why she was attracted to stoic, lumbering me. She has jokingly called me a “brute” in a loving way and says she is fascinated how I just “power through” manual labor for 12 hours at a time on the weekend doing projects and lifting heavy stuff around our house. I think she just has a biological urge to see me as that big protector.
Also, she always talks about how she doesn’t like muscle on guys, but since we have been together I have put on a lot of muscle and the more I put on the more she is constantly squeezing my arms and shoulders and putting her head on my chest… but she has also noticed that other women will feel my arms in public and I think she gets a little jealous
Other women touching you in public without your consent is harassment
She chooses for image. She's sympathetic. But, she's no empathy for you valuing different facets in your choice. Is it just underwear or does this extend to more, possibly all choices?
We agree on the overwhelming majority of important things (politics, cleanliness, nutrition, children) but obviously we have different tastes within those areas, I love cashews, she hates them, I prefer lifting weights, she prefers Pilates, etc… This is just the one weird thing we get hung up on.
This is more like her insisting you not eat cashews, because she hates cashews.
Only in this case her hate is homophobic/transphobic. Women can wear boy stuff. And men can, in theory, wear 'queer' stuff. As long as it's not her partner doing it.
Women love feminine men, but they won't date one.
Yeah, it’s very strange. They talk about masculinity like it’s a negative trait but then that’s all they want in a relationship. Nature > Nurture
Which leaves men playing this crazy game where we need to be very masculine but never acknowledge it.
What’s crazy is I started “squaring up” on my spouse in the same way I would before fighting someone, I.e. standing upright, puffing out chest, flexing my lats out and staring down at her just for fun sometimes and I can tell in instant change in her body language where she gets turned on. I also started doing this with female friends randomly that I have no interest in, but just testing out how they respond. I would say like 70% of the time they end up touching you in some way, not sexually but like moving to my side and grabbing my arm and leaning into me. I’m surprised I don’t hear about this more. I think it’s a biological response.
She obviously likes the way you look in boxers. Maybe ask her to buy you some Saxx brand boxers: synthetic stretchy, great support, durable. Two pairs got me about 1k trail miles. I've since replaced everything.
How does their synthetic hold up?
I’ve always bought their cotton boxer briefs and it seems that in recent years the durability has gone down. They used to last a few years a pair, but new pairs start to look baggy and sad after about 4-6 months. (They’re honestly off the list of products I buy right now.)
Mine are all a couple years old. I'd expect the same enshitification across the product line.
I find my clothing by asking ultralight hikers, runners, and bicyclists.
interesting first choice 🤡
Dude, I know this is a weird question, but where do you buy your underwear. I've been wanting to try it out, but I can't really find a site that doesn't fetishize thong underwear for men.
Btw, I think there's nothing wrong with wearing something you're comfortable in.
MeUndies. They have tons of colors, great return policy if you don’t like them or they don’t fit, and they don’t fetishize it. I know what you are saying, when I first started looking they had a very obvious “target demographic” that I’m not a part of. I just wanted a solid, normal, comfortable man thong. Before that, jockey had great men’s thongs and some women’s thongs that definitely fit men and don’t look feminine. I’m hoping that Meundies starts to do more fabric types in men’s thongs, women get all the light and silky fabrics….
Oh no! My husband just started wearing thongy underwear and I'm enjoying the view ;)
Also he is really enjoying them as well, guess they feel better than boxers
I’m glad for both of you and that you are both enjoying it! It’s honestly such a small thing to get hung up on in our relationship that I just brush it off and move on.
The thong, right?
I'm getting mixed signals here
Yes the thong
Try. https://moonieco.com/pages/monies like you're not wearing under crackers at all
I am not always wearing thongs, and I really like MeUndies thongs and I have a lot of their trunks, too. She calls the trunks “my booty shorts” jokingly. She doesn’t mind when I wear those.
Domestic violence against men is usually ignored or blamed on the victim.
Here's another thing that I was just reminded of in this very thread, lmfao:
Men are expected to accept unsolicited advice at face value when they want to vent, because we're supposed to be the ones with all the answers, and if a man is complaining about a problem, then he's obviously just missing the answer.
This actually blew up my last relationship, right at the beginning of the pandemic, when my girlfriend at the time was stressed from being laid off and we weren't able to see each other due to the isolation orders.
She would try to vent to me about her problems, looking for support in a time of emotional vulnerability, and I, an inexperienced idiot just trying to be helpful, would suggest solutions that I thought she hadn't considered. If you can't guess exactly how that went, you've almost certainly never been in a serious relationship.
What made it worse is she would then say to stop mansplaining, which made me defensive because I thought she was tacitly accusing me of being intentionally misogynistic when I was honestly just trying to be helpful. At the time, I figured I just needed to adjust my approach a little bit, not completely change course. Unsurprisingly, that didn't work.
It was only in hindsight, some time after she had dumped my dumb ass, and I had blocked and deleted her number, that I was complaining to my friends and getting the exact same kind of thing back that I realized, "oh wow, I get it now, that is actually really fucking annoying and invalidating."
It was also around this time, while discussing my experiences with friends who have been diagnosed, that I realized that I might have ADHD. So that definitely hadn't helped.
In the extremely unlikely event you're reading this, K, I'm sorry. I figured out what I did wrong, just a little too late.
It's not entirely on you. Accusing you of mansplaining is not cool, she should've just said something like "i'm sharing this because I'm looking for emotional support, not solutions, so please stop trying to solve my problems when I'm just venting".
In a sense, how people react to having problems shared with them is a cultural difference, neither is right or wrong but they can be jarring and confusing when you're used to one culture but interact with a different one. But it's not fair to just assume the other culture is acting in bad faith
With my brother I’ve started asking “are you looking for advice or do you just want someone to vent to?”. I think most people can do better playing both roles.
In all fairness, she was pretty patient with me for a bit, but as I alluded to, I attempted to apply small course corrections when I should have tried a different course entirely. In reality, this was the cumulative effect of multiple different occasions.
See, my dumb ass didn't think it was an issue with what I was saying, but how I was saying it. So I figured it was just a matter of trying to be more tactful with my suggestions. Obviously, that wasn't it.
Sure, she could have been more mature and introspective about it, but so could I. So it's kind of a wash.
I can't really blame her because of the shit she was going through. There's a bit more context that I don't really want to get into on a public forum, but in hindsight her reaction is understandable.
Kinda hard not to blame myself when it was ultimately my fuck up, however. I'm still dealing with that over 4 years later.
Had a gf way back in the day explain this to me. "When we're venting we want emotional support. Stop trying to give us solutions."
Dated many women in the 25-years since I was given these wise words, seen the truth of that advice over and over. Yet I still struggle to STFU. It's so prevalent among men, I wonder if we're not hardwired to go into problem solving mode when confronted with an issue.
I think it's because we feel that we can find the solution to the problem, it will stop the pain that our partner is feeling at the situation.
Because it is, right? Right?!? When your car brakes makes weird noises you replace them to fix it and stop whining. Why doesn't this work with women too? /s
I'm sorry you equated me saying we want to help our partner feel better with 'stop whining'.
I mean, if it's a problem, fix it. If you don't want it fixed, shut your cake hole.
Holy shit, it's almost like men and women sometimes have different motivations! Maybe the problem isn't the event, but how she feels about it. And maybe the solution is to let her get it off her chest instead of suppressing it. I know, us guys generally don't like to deal with our feelings, but that doesn't mean they don't exist, or that it wouldn't be healthier if we did.
Feelings are shit. And no, I'm not being dismissive, I'm being metaphorical.
When you eat, you mash up the food with your mouth and saliva is added and then it gets pushed into your stomach with various glandular juices and it gets squished around into a paste and then pushed through your intestines where it is attacked by yet more enzymes and bacteria, nutrients and fluids are extracted and the unusable brown sludge that gets pushed out as a waste product is what we call "shit." Who's hungry?
When you perceive stimuli, electromagnetic, mechanical or chemical signals enter your senses, are transduced into action potentials which fire across synapses, signals travel along nerve cells to your brain where the processes of filtering and attending, perception and decoding happens, in a process I don't think we fully understand yet, these perceptions are compared to memories, recognition, learning or insight occurs and the energy left over from this experience gets pushed out as a waste product that we call "feelings."
If you take a bad shit, if it hurts, if it's difficult, if it's messy, it can be an indication that your body or your diet are unhealthy. If it's too much of a problem for too long it's time to talk to a healthcare professional because maybe you've got a condition. But if everything was fine and then you ate that suspiciously room temperature shrimp cocktail at that non-chain steakhouse 150 miles inland that hasn't changed its decor since the 1980s, probably that's the problem.
Deal with your bad feelings the same way you deal with a bad shit: troubleshoot, diagnose, take corrective action, return to service, monitor for further issues. Or do what women do and use your acquaintances and/or your Tiktok audience as feelings toilets, I guess. Just dump your shit onto other people to deal with.
The overall topic here is gender double standards, right? Well, I don't get to use people as feelings toilets. So people don't get to use me as a feelings toilet.
And you don't perhaps think your attitude is guided by your feelings? Why should others around you have to be the toilet where you deal with your feelings by having such a negative attitude? Or perhaps none of us are sufficient to do this on our own, and sometimes we rely on those close to us to get us through the parts we find difficult.
The fact you liken emotions to a waste product, and not an equally vital part of the entire process, says it all.
Nope. Fair is fair no matter how you feel about it.
OP asked a question.
All men are required to be sufficient to do this on our own. If he isn't he is discarded. We should also discard women for the same reasons. Fuck that double standard.
Taking a shit is a pretty important part of life as a mammal, but you're expected to shut the fucking door while you're on the can.
Yeah, this reads like, "I suck at this skill, so this skill must be useless and the people who do use it are wrong."
More like "if I attempt to engage in this activity, I will be punished for it, so I have no intention of tolerating it from others."
I don't get to cry on anyone's shoulder. So no one gets to cry on mine. End of discussion.
And there's the toxic form of that sentiment
Yeah not wanting to be someone's feelings toilet sure is toxic.
I struggle with this too. I think it's because it feels so damned nonproductive to not try and figure out how to make things better. Matter of fact, it feels like how I approach people dumping personal problems at work...indifference I suppose. And that's the last thing I want to show someone I care about. So it weighs me down.
I've taken to asking questions from different angles during the venting, and this seems to be my best strategy. Results are mixed.
I've accepted that I can't be one of these "there, there" people because I don't enjoy feeling useless. I care, what's being said matters to me, but I can't be myself in the situation. And that feels bad.
Ah, the "it's not about the nail" situation. https://youtu.be/-4EDhdAHrOg
Well, kind of the exact opposite of that. I realize that's meant to be satire, but that kind of attitude is what got me into trouble.
I left out the exact details for brevity and privacy, but it was a situation where there wasn't a simple answer. I just didn't have a good grasp of the concept of active listening.
I was trying to engage with what she was saying, because she had previously told me that it seemed like I didn't care about her problems. But I just wasn't saying the right things.
In reality, my previous approach had revolved around keeping my mouth shut because then there was no way I could say anything to fuck it up. But then, in large part thanks to my undiagnosed ADHD, I would tune out without realizing it.
So I engaged in the only way I knew how, by trying to rationalize her experiences when I should have been empathizing with them.
Ah, ok. I'm essentially the same as the person in the video. I didn't talk about something unless I want help and the situation fixed. Otherwise, I kept to myself, and I treated others the same. It was a rough young adulthood.
I definitely had to have a chat with my SO about letting me vent without problem solving. I still have to remind them from time to time. Some people are just solution-minded like that.
Had to learn this the hard way myself.
Now I literally ask when it isn't obvious. Do you want support or solutions? It's rarely the latter but at least we're both on the same page.
be happy it turned out the way it did.
Here it is, folks, case in fucking point.
Did I ask, at any point, for opinions on how I should be feeling about any of this? I don't think so.
Yes. You posted it on the internet. We're not your ex. This is a public forum. Go blog if you want to vent without someone else saying something.
you invited ths beast to appear, now deal with it like a man.
No one calls a woman a babysitter or says she's "giving dad a break" when she's somewhere with her own children.
I'm about 30. I have friends my age with young (toddler) daughters. They've had the police called on them walking with their own child. I've had the police called on me watching their daughter for them (these are friends I've had for 12 years, I'm basically her uncle).
Men are assumed to be predators if they are near children.
I used to take my twin daughters to the park and we would have daddy day while their mom was at work swing shifts.
We had pizza at the park, and it worked out because changing their diapers on a shitty blanket was easier than fumbling around on a bench since no one thought to put a diaper tray in any of the men’s restrooms.
Had the police called on me a few times. Never did they take the call seriously after showing up. One female officer told a Karen that she is annotating this as a fraud call because anyone with half a brain would realize it’s a dad eating pizza with his kids rather than a kidnapper molesting children in public.
Mom changes a diaper? No one cares.
I think its the larger double standard; men are sex monsters. A woman and a man can't be friends. A child with a man is in danger.
This is connected to; Intimacy is feminine. Men can only be vulnerable or gentle with their partners or families, if then. Its not universal, obviously, but the callous lover and the distant father are not so uncommon so as to be unrecognizable. Intimacy between men is also considered feminine, unless in the military or team sports.
It's a world we created as well. Every double standard listed in this thread is a double standard. But it is also something cultivated by the Patriarchy.
doing oppositely gendered activities.
my girlfriend can change the oil in her car and lifts weights?
cool. healthy.
i can sew my own clothes and bake?
Weird. Creepy.
Hard disagree. I wish I knew how (and had the time to) make my own clothes. And, who doesn’t love baked goods? These both sound awesome.
"Girly" things are ok as a career, but not a hobby.
If you're a professional Tailor, it's a respectable job that people seek you out for, but if you just like to sew...
Chefs are predominantly male, but if you're a guy that just likes to cook, "what are you, a housewife?"
I guess it’s cultural, or regional, or just who you spend time around. Among my male friends, most of whom are straight and married with children, I don’t think any of them would even blink an eye at either of these things.
I do have colleagues from other cultures and US regions (US Italian, Central America, rust belt) who I’d bet would act the way you describe. I’m not jealous of that aspect of those cultures.
For sure, and I appreciate that.
They're great skills, and if you watch a couple YouTube videos on making your own clothes, you'll be shocked at how simple it is and how little time it takes.
I feel very comfortable sewing and baking, this is just the best answers I have for the question.
You can find a used machine to practice with and start by fixing and altering.
Local indy sewing shops that I've encountered have been happy to advise and some have open sewing days.
I fix my outdoors gear and clothes routinely, often with hand-stitching, just takes practice.
Thankfully, I’m not completely void of any sewing skill. I can hem pants, or repair some outdoor gear, as you mentioned. But, I don’t think I could make a complete shirt that didn’t look homemade.
I have a massive wingspan:weight ratio, so I always have to choose between sleeves being long enough on a shirt that’s 4x too big, or sleeves that end 3 inches short on a shirt that mostly fits. If I could make my own shirts and hoodies from scratch, it would be great. I just have too many other hobbies, and not enough time to dedicate to learning a new one right now.
So you look like you just sauntered out of Auschwitz?
You’re the reason why most shirts don’t fit me. I hate “slim fit” shirts, and anything fashionable is so slim fit you would have trouble fitting it over a skeleton or a 1,000-year-old Sahara-desiccated corpse. Why is your kind so common that the marketplace gets flooded with clothing that can only fit a famine victim?
And I’m not obese in the least. I just have a 50-inch chest with a 36-inch waist. I have pecs, not some wafer-thin slabs of barely-there muscle that would have trouble bench-pressing an onion scape.
About the only thing that fits me are 2XL tops that are regular or relaxed fit. Even jackets have gotten into the “reverse-vanity-sizing” madness that has recently beset Canada, with many “size 50” suit jackets really being a size 46 or even a 44.
.
even just knowing enough to not consider clothes ruined when a button pops out or a tear forms would be nice
Yeah, I was in Costco buying new cookie sheets and an old lady said it was so nice that I was helping out. Lady, they’re for me, I’m the baker here.
It took decades before Hasbro Easy Bake Ovens were marketed in the US in Yellow and Black rather than Mattel Barbie™️ Fuchsia Pink (💕) which is still the standard in US department stores. Curiously gender neutral colors started from demand in Sweden and expanded outward.
In the nineties, Barbie was built like only a select few Playboy Bunnies (Jessica Rabbit's dimensions are physiologically impossible. A robot, maybe) and Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader action figures were ripped like He-Man (or soon-to-be Governor of California Arnold Schwarzenegger).
Gender roles are (to me) extremely weird.
Eh, if she's old that's excusable. Expectations were different back then
I lift and I sew. Fuck that noise, you do you.
You gotta learn to sew when you're constantly ripping your shirt with each flex.
No one thinks it's creepy for a guy to sew and bake.
no one you know.
that's nice, really.
Anyone who would think that would not be worth my time. I would never give them that power over me.
that's good, they're not.
and you shouldn't.
You'd be surprised how hard it is to get on in life if you're surrounded by people like this, you can't just ignore half the people around you all the time, especially if you're forced to interact with them.
I don't think that's exactly true. As a woman I've had situations where I was questioned even when I knew exactly what I was talking about just because it was a traditionally male activity.
Yes, I know what type of battery I want for my car. Yes, I know it's uncommon, I checked if you had it in your website before I came here. Yes, I know how to install it and I don't want to pay you to do it. Shut up and take my money so I can leave.
I have several stories like this. In home renovation stores men that work there are always super opinionated on the problem that I'm trying to solve. I'm just looking for the supplies I want, I didn't ask for opinions.
It doesn't help that I'm small and look young, but still they should mind their own business.
No, it is. I had women joke and say “what are you, gay?”, then laugh when they find out I can sew. Have stitched up many a stuffed animal. The guys ask me where did I learn that?
“The army”
Oh, that’s cool.
I agree that men also get flack for doing activities associated with women, my answer to the original comment is disagreeing with the double standard part. I think it's bad both ways and therefore not a double standard
Probably mostly to do with being a woman, though even if a nerdy looking dude came in they'd probably get similar treatment. Partially just how they expect someone who "knows what they're doing" to look like (mechanics knowledge = man in jeans)
Also, it's not just targeted at people perceived as "other" in many of these traditionally masculine realms.
Often, it seems like so many of these men see patronizing and second guessing as the only ways to establish and defend their own credibility on their given subject. It's not just the "oh it's a woman/someone who doesn't look the part...I bet they don't know what they're doing" factor, it's also that they're a product of the culture that tells them that the most important thing is that they're perceived as more knowledgeable than anyone else, and that the only way to establish that is to have their own opinions and views on every subject in the field, and then aggressively defend and promote those views while dismissing, undermining, and discouraging any views that conflict with theirs...or the people who hold those views.
And it's not just big picture "world view" type stuff. It's crap like, "which brand makes the best widget in your hobby?". If they're a "brand red" guy, they feel the need to not only let everyone know that they like brand red...they have to let everyone know that brand red is the best, and that it's objective, and that if you prefer brand blue, you're just a clueless newbie who hasn't learned yet. If you like brand green, well you've just been taken in by their marketing. And if you're one of those brand orange people, well you know what they say about those people...
Are you sure those home renovation workers weren't trying to make conversation, might even being bragging about their own project attempts and you being a women had nothing to do with how they interact with any other customer?
I can never be sure, I'm not inside their heads, but I don't remember ever seeing this behavior directed at my husband or dad when tagging along with them in similar situations.
Disagree but upvoting because I'm sure this is true for some.
As a man, I have never gotten any shit for sewing. But I do give plenty of people shit for not sewing.
Fix your clothes people, a needle and thread are not that freaking complicated. You don't need to learn how to use it, just push the needle through the fabric, you'll figure it out.
Sure, with practice you can make it prettier, but whatever.
People who think that are creepy and weird.
They are also the majority.
I sew and bake and no one ever says anything negative about it. It’s usually a topic of conversation. And back in the day when I had been called gay for enjoying baking by some insecure guy or weirdo girl I just laughed it off. Because it was usually after they finished eating a delicious treat I made and brought into the office or something.
OK there are some "feminine activities" where people would bat an eye but sewing and baking? Lmao I don't think anyone would care.
Except if you fuck up making cookies, like me last week 😭
haha, woo! those are some hockey pucks!
i get eyes a-fluttering anytime either is brought up, but it's good you have faith in your community.
Clothes in general, I could borrow my husband's shirt and nobody would bat an eye but I'd he borrowed mine (he can't because I'm smaller, but assuming we were the same size-ish) would look strange.
I don't think groping is gonna be ignored in any workplace, in any direction.
I've read enough accounts from both men and women to know that sexual harassment is not taken seriously at many places.
In some workplaces it's even ignored in both directions. At last, true gender equality! /s
Many (basically all) companies will completely ignore an issue until they're absolutely forced to act on it, it's pretty par for the course.
Huh? Groping is ignored much of the time if done by a woman to a man
Groping is very much ignored in both directions at work
ITT about male victims of sexism-based double-standard, we see
Wow, Lemmy. Be better than Reddit.
That is exactly why I'm downvoting many of the comments here. Not personal stories, but all the "men have it so much worse" comments, which are ultimately just toxic against women.
Because holy fuck, that was exactly Reddit, and I do not want this place to end up the same. We already have a massive imbalance between the genders and if we men start discrediting women, they're most fucking definitely not going to show up here.
I do want men to be able to speak about abuse stories. That is where our patriarchical society kills men, in that it does not allow us to show weakness. But it cannot fucking devolve into a us vs. them discussion, which this whole question is locked and loaded towards. That is not helpful to anyone.
I'm aghast at the comments in here lol
Like... I'm speechless.
This thread and ones like it just prove the point
In dating or marriage: If a female partner criticizes on her male’s choice of outfit, it’s totally normal. If a male criticizes the choice of outfit of his female partner… a fight is imminent.
Insane expectations being placed on women around beauty and appearance, and the resulting insecurities that creates, play a big role in this
Sounds like an unhealthy relationship to me instead of a double standard but whatever.
The whole question of double standards is in a sense, asking about common unhealthy traits
Both are very common, so it's easy to confuse them.
I see this all the time and my wife can give to hoots what I wear so I have no realtionship issue, but I see it all the time. Honestly it is a realtionship thing. Anyone can criticize a males outfit without to much blowback. If asked an not in a realtionship with a women a man can criticize a womens outfit minorly. If in a relationship they have to have an especially easy going significant other. Like my wife.
Being held culpable for the brutality some powerful men wield against women because of the "patriarchy". But also being at fault when women with power exploit or abuse men.
The problem is dominance hierarchy, which expresses itself as patriarchy most of the time.
But not always, and places on this earth exist where a matriarchic hierarchy is similarly asserted.
Obligatorily, no war but class war.
I find it hilarious when people get upset about "no war but class war" as if the sexist and racist systems we experience aren't just symptoms of a heavily stratified society
This comes from my own observations, and might not be a popular take, but men are often encouraged or celebrated for having multiple partners and not using protection.
This attitude puts men(especially young men) at risk for STI's, some of which can affect fertility even if a course of antibiotics will take care of it. Others don't have cures yet, or are not as easy to treat like herpes, the different hepatitis strains, HIV, genital warts ect.
This attitude towards sex for men puts their health at risk and their partners.
The amount of times I've seen dudes encourage each other to not use condoms is kinda distressing. I don't think guys are being educated on how a condom should fit and how to find the right size. They shouldn't be uncomfortable. If they are try a different kind.
Women often have to try different birth control pills until they find one with minimal side effects. Try different condoms until you find the right ones for you. It's to protect your dick from diseases, not just to stop pregnancy.
Take care of yourselves guys. Your health is important.
I mean maybe its just my circles but I found there was a type of guy that was a small minority who had a lot of partners and the average guy had a few and a goodly amount had trouble having one while women on average had a few. I guess what im saying it to me the average women has more partners than the average guy but like there is an above average area where the men have more than the women and then also guys obsess more over it (and lie). Granted at the extremes the extreme case women is likely going to overtake the extreme case guys.
This is probably 10 years ago that I read it, but I don't expect that the numbers have changed much: The median number of lifetime partners for men is 4, while the median for women is 7. The median means that half of the group had that many or more, and half had that many or fewer. If every heterosexual encounter by definition has to include a male and a female, the way that that works out is that there's a subgroup of men who have a partner count way over four.
In short, yeah, that observation checks out in the research. Among men, there are a few Wilt Chamberlains balanced by thousands with only a partner or two. (NB: extreme example for rhetorical purposes)
Regardless of whatever the case may be, men should be encouraged to protect their sexual health.
Women have gynecologists they see to monitor and do preventative care, discuss birth control methods ect.
Men don't typically see a urologist unless theres an issue, and because of that there are less opportunities for them to ask questions, or be educated about STI's and ways to protect themselves. Or know the potential long term risks of common STIs or even the symptoms.
Add to that common misconceptions about condoms, user error while using them, and cultural attitudes and men are kinda set up to not use them in way. Men's health is important. I worry for my nephews who are getting into their early 20's. I hope what I tried to teach them makes a difference.
Yeah I getcha. I actually always mention to my wife I sorta wish men could have a mens health doctor along with a primary care.
Everyone says to talk about your problems but the second you do, you're told that women either have it worse or how they have some worse problem. I've largely stopped talking about my problems because I'm never heard, just talked past or worse, made out to be the problem. The older I get the more reinforced my silence is because evey time I open up it's used against me and this is just normal.
Meanwhile I'm expected to play therapist when someone else talks about their problems and I have to stop my autistic ass from telling them I really don't want to hear about you. I can't even get the silence I give returned to me.
"For example workplace harassment by women towards males like touching or groping being ignored"
This is absolutely not a double standard in society in most workplaces. I've never encountered an HR department that wouldn't take this extremely seriously. I'm not saying those HR depts don't exist, but they're certainly not the norm
I'm a pretty built dude and my coworkers bring it up constantly. Like my appearance is a regular topic of conversation. It's not unflattering or rude but if it were a woman they were talking about everyone would think it was super weird to have, for example, the CEO commenting on some woman's appearance all the time, even to say something positive.
HR response isn’t the only thing though. A number of years ago, my (F) partner (M) was sexually harassed by his female boss. He didn’t report it to HR, but he did sometimes bring it up around his friends. He had multiple people who base a lot of their identity on their feminism/acceptance/equality views tell him it wasn’t possible for him to be a victim of sexual harassment.
And then if he brought it up around more normie people, especially guys, the most frequent first question was, “Is she hot?”
The responses he got from so many people were part of why he never took it to HR. The other part was that she was smart enough to never do it in writing, so it would have been he-said-she-said. It was just easier to get a new job.
Agreed. Unless you live outside the first world, HR will intervene because they don't want you to sue the company, regardless of your gender.
If you're a dude and your older female boss forces you to have sex with her under threat of losing your job, everyone just says "that's awesome what's the problem?".
I had a professor do this to me. Was an adult going to night school, in my last year. She was about ten years older than me and we hit it off in a way I assumed was a professional student/teacher relationship. Had this with other professors as well.
She told me to meet her at a hotel once, thought she was joking and when I didn’t show was furious. Told her it just seemed odd, and she told me she is getting another one this weekend and not to worry about it, but if I didn’t show there would be consequences.
Through a lot of double speak she let me know if it didn’t happen, there would be no graduation for me. Not knowing what to do, bought a pack of condoms and showed up to the hotel. “No, we aren’t using those”. And that was several of my weekends until graduation. There was zero possibility of saying no, and no one to complain to. I can tell the story online and that’s about it.
Holy shit dude. Sorry about the rape. Like, for real. I hope you're doing ok.
Wait what? You can't be serious! You did this instead of reporting her to the school?
Yes, I bitched on the internet. It was something that happened almost ten years ago, but it’s not like the school would have ever done anything. Let’s be honest about how this stuff plays out.
I'd have went to the police if the school didn't do shit or threaten with lawyers. I'd escalate all my options since this shit is not going down with me
didn't family guy cover this lol
Some good examples:
Fat acceptance and body positivity. Obesity is glorified (even fetishized) when it's a woman, whereas obese men are shunned. Have you noticed that nobody in the fat acceptance movement is vouching for the 300lb basement dwellers?
Older ladies who date younger guys are called cougars, whereas if you flip the gender roles, an older man dating a younger lady half his age is going to be labelled a pedophile, even if she's of-age. Just look at at the anger surrounding Tobey Maguire (48 years old) dating a 20 year old actress. There are people who legitimately think men like him should be hunted for sport.
The amount of effort you have to put into your dating profile. Women have the opposite problem of being inundated with matches even with minimal effort.
The body positivity one really upsets me. A few years ago Target rearranged the clothing area. The men's area shrank and the women's is like three times are big. The women's area has all manner of plus sized models and mannequins. Nothing of the sort in the men's.
It's like, I've always known body positivity (when it comes to corporations doing it) is extremely one sided and they're only chasing profits but I'd never seen it so literally before. Target was one of my favorite places to shop for clothes.
Body positivity almost doesn't exist for men. As soon as some asshole guy does something, its jokes about their body. Ive seen jokes about being short and no one cares as long as your talking about Putin or Tory Lanes, fat and small dick jokes constantly thrown at Trump. All of these are body shaming that will never be seen by the people they're directed at but will be seen by pleny of others with those features.
I think I get what you're saying but let's be honest in that a larger guy half the time will just need an XL T-shirt. The sizes of these areas for merchandise are relative to consumer demands and consumer volume by sex. As someone who worked at Target for a couple of years back in the day, yes, far more women shop there. And the style of dressing for women has always been more diverse.
With respect to the mannequins, there seems to be a difference in the perception of average body types in reflection based on the gender. Perhaps this is more a trait of conservative men, but no matter how much of a beer belly they have, they seem to want to be perceived like they're macho manly six-pack men. Marketing plays to that. On the flip-side, it has become trendy to give comfort to women who -- by far -- receive far more bullying over being large both online and offline. No doubt as a white male I feel fucking privileged by contrast of what my sisters or wife have gone through at times in their lives.
I'm being honest when I tell you that I need 2X.
Dating apps have fuckloads of problems that work against non-top paying users, but for men the main issue is demographic: 80% of users are men. There just aren't enough women on them.
I am in the dating scene at the moment. I definitely agree that men and women suffer the opposite problem on those apps. I think the apps are generally not designed to be successful and take advantage of choice fatigue. I don't know if it's a double standard per-se but I do think there's a drastic difference in amount of effort applied.
Of course there's no requirement but I do think that the minimum general expectation people have is that there is going to be effort applied to find a partner (aka, communication). That doesn't always seem to be the case, especially from my anecdotal experience, that getting anything more than a 1-3 word reply is considered a success.
On the age thing, TBH anyone under 25 or so should not be dating anyone more than 10 years older than them. It's still a very formative time both physically (brain development) and psychologically/sociologically. It can cause serious power dynamic issues that risk them being unable to end the relationship or deny consent for certain things. That said gender doesn't make a difference in those scenarios beyond the fact that women are at a disadvantage and less likely to be wealthy and use that to control the younger.
But outside of issues where the older person holds power over the younger, I don't think age should even be that big of a thing. Yes, people of different generations are less likely to have things in common and other conflicts can occur that are age related, but that's for them to decide.
So one thing I noticed is that women betraying their partner has become extremely normalized
Every "ethical non monogamous" relationship I've seen IRL is just a woman pressuring their long term monogamous partner into a situation where she has multiple partners and she's struggling
"Monkey Branching", where a woman starts dropping hints at one guy while still seeing another in hopes of making a seamless transition, is pretty accepted. Emotional affairs are only a thing for men apparently
While it's always been acceptable to leave a guy if he can't "provide" for you, it's really fucking stupid in the context of modern feminism
Women who use OLD are often encouraged to have a "roster" of men, who they form a well beyond casual connection to.
There's a large number of 30+ year old women breaking up with their long term partners to "find themselves". I put that in quotations because this usually just involves a ton of casual sex. It's basically the modern day equivalent of a guy leaving his wife for the secretary
There are a million different love triangles on TV. They are almost all two guys and a woman who is disrespectful of both. The guys get mad at each other and the women's behavior is not portrayed as toxic.
Like 80 percent of holiday movies involve a woman leaving her fiance for a man she just met. This is always seen as romantic, instead of psychotic.
In addition to all that, women are extremely reluctant to criticize other women. This stands even when another woman is behaving in an almost objectively toxic way. I moved post covid. The first year I witnessed a fuckton of toxic behavior, but when I tried to point it out I would get dirty glances from women. The second year there I ended up getting close to other women in those conversations who took it upon themselves to tell me in a smaller setting that they actually agreed with me, but they didn't want to appear unsupportive.
Whatever the intention there, the mentality enabled a subset of women to be shitty and probably convinced a lot of men that such behavior was something most women were okay with.
Every single experience you mentioned I cannot relate to at all. It's really weird to read.
It sounds like you haven't seen any healthy ethnically non-monogamous relationships. That's a shame. As a part of one, I've seen several others as well. It can work, if it's done for the right reasons and if all partners respect each other.
I know it's a typo but I'm cracking up at
You know it's funny. I hear a million different accounts of ethnically monogamous relationships that work, but only on the internet where it's impossible to get the full context.
I almost never meet women like this so maybe it depends on your area. I'd love to be in a woman's roster but they all want monogamous relationships.
Trust me, you don't. These women will often want the full emotional availability of a romantic partner from you, with a fraction of both the emotional and physical availability of a partner from them. They generally want a monogamous relationship, just from an emotionally unavailable guy who is very physically attractive. Above all else, they will not be honest about your "ranking".
Almost any woman who is halfway sane and willing to use online dating tends to get into a relationship in like three months tops. There's also a decent number of women who are either not looking for a relationship, or would like a relationship but think the apps are super toxic.
However around 10 to 15 percent of the women I meet are very much architects of their own misery. These women are extremely vocal, generally shitty to their potential partners, and can always find more partners due to the nature of OLD. The frustrating part is I haven't met a single woman who calls out this behavior, and a significant amount that actually reassure these people.
My GF insists that most women are just trying to be supportive, and that they don't actually approve of the toxic behavior in question. My conversations with closer female friends backs this up. However in my eyes all this does is enable and normalize said behavior. It is also especially frustrating because I'm 100 percent expected to speak out if another guy does something remotely problematic.
That's a whole separate issue from women having a roster of men.
Idk about emotional availability. I just want a fuck buddy. If she can't provide that, she's gone.
That's about you being able to enforce your own boundaries, bro
Okay so what do you suggest I do. Cut out every single female friend in my life? Convince my single male friends, as a man in a relationship, to boycott online dating apps?
The only behavior uncommon enough to actually get away from are ethically non monogamous relationships and straight up cheating. That's 100 percent a red line for me at this point. Everything else is so ubiquitous that I'm basically forced to put up with it if I want to be social.
You just have to worry about being happy in the relationship you're actually in and not project these feelings of disrespectful non-monogamy on to others.
It's completely reasonable not to want to live in a society where infidelity or betrayal is normalized.
You're projecting your own feelings of betrayal onto others. This is a you problem.
Okay so what instances do you think are not betrayals? The only thing that I can see as subjective is the "roster", and I've had a good amount of single friends express their own feelings of betrayal on that.
Unless you're actually just getting salty on me calling out open relationships, in which case the betrayal is assumed because of the inevitable breakup.
Betrayal depends on the boundaries set within each relationship. In open relationships, there's no betrayal if all actions are consensual and agreed upon. It's about honesty and communication. Assuming all open relationships end in breakups ignores the reality that many people are happy in non-monogamous arrangements. Just because it’s not for everyone doesn’t make it wrong or destined to fail.
I’m had 2 women tell me they had this and saw one on OLD. Of them the 2 got so fed up of men and their bullshit. Started having activity buddies with benefits. One was my cousin so I knew the back story of her asshole husband. Other was a neighbour of a good friend.
Oh this is another thing. I know some women who are perpetually single despite heavy usage of OLD. I used to have a lot of sympathy, but at this point I've met many women in relationships via OLD, and the entire process took them six weeks. The second category of women weren't "higher value" or whatever, they just had more realistic expectations and were less shallow.
Hi, ethical non monogamous person here. My wife did not pressure me into this. The only other couple I know IRL that does this it was also the husband who prompted it.
You should listen to women talk more, they're extremely enthusiastic to talk shit about each other.
I actually do agree with some of your points though, but on that point, I've rarely seen a woman reluctant to talk trash about another woman when given a chance (maybe more in he said/she said situations is what you're referring to).
I'm 30 years old, and even when I was 15 I wasn't really friends with the super mean girl gossip types. Throughout my life, I've been friends with women who largely identify as feminist and sort of reject those stereotypes.
The problem is that post #metoo it became normalized to take the whole "support women" thing to such an extreme that it enabled toxic behavior. While there were women who tried to pull the whole "it's sexist to criticize me for making poor life choices" crap, other women would get super offended for them attempting to use feminism in that way.
It's extremely frustrating that the 19 and 20 year old women I knew in college had better moral compasses than the 25 to 40 year old women I know now. That's really not supposed to be how it works.
It's fairly broadly believed that strong male influences benefit a child greatly, but males are looked at with huge skepticism if they attempt to enter most forms of childcare as a profession.
This isn't a blanket statement, but I have, in the past, been introduced to women in my friend group, and talked to them like I would anybody else. But for whatever reason, they get the idea that I'm hitting on them. I can see it in their body language, the way they bring up their significant other (Like, really? I was just introduced to both of you 5 minutes ago?), among others. They make it out like "how could you be hitting on me?" and I'm like, asking about a band she brought up? I wasn't even remotely attracted to her, I was just trying to be friendly, but her demeanor made it seem like she thought I was some insensitive asshole, and it hurt. I excused myself and just fuckin left. I had only gotten there like 20 minutes beforehand.
Another time I was introduced to a woman while we were helping a friend move. This girl I was into (she ranted about recycling <3), and I was planning on asking her out once we were done for the day, but as we were talking, she mentioned her significant other, so I didn't. After we'd finished loading something into the moving truck, I said "hey so, thanks for mentioning your significant other back there, saved me a bit of awkwardness haha." To this, she took offense, and challenged me, "what do you mean? what are you talking about?" like, hands on hips, wide eyes, "how dare you" attitude... and I was dumbfounded. Here I was, thanking her for stopping me from embarrassing myself by asking out a girl that was in a relationship, and I was getting the third degree from it! At this point I didn't know whether it would make the matter worse if I confessed I had almost asked her out, so I just blankly stared, mouth agape (dumbfounded, like I said). I eventually excused myself and went back to loading the truck. Avoided her like the plague since then.
These were just two myopic incidents, probably lasted 5 minutes in total each, but it affected me in such a way that I basically cut myself out from the entire social circle, and only ever hang out with a guy friend that's kind.
However, I feel the need to add a disclaimer so you don't get me wrong.
I've also gone through a lot of personal growth recently, and in the endeavor to understand myself and my sexuality (Go Fightin' Bi's!), I've encountered scenarios that help me understand women better. I've had guy friends who only acted like my friend because they wanted to sleep with me. That hurts, and it makes me feel cheap. Once I tell them definitely "No," or they realize I'm not interested, they stop interacting with me. It's like, is that all I was in your eyes? Some thing to fuck? And even getting to the point where I'd tell these guys "No," was excruciating! I don't want to lose a friendship, or hurt them by saying "No," I'm just not interested! Makes it hard to engage with my fellow LGBT peeps, when I feel like I'm just going to be pushed into hurting someones feelings. This led me to ghost some guys, and I'm not proud of it. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate it when someone is flirty or compliments me, that's nice and can be a real ego boost! But when I'm using all my body language to say "thanks but no thanks," and you are still uncomfortably close? or touching the small of my back like it's nonchalant or something? fucking GROSS.
Additionally, I have an elderly, disabled, female neighbor that I used to help out a lot. Whenever she needed something done around the house, she'd come over and I'd take care of it for her. She is an old pot head, so she'd even smoke me up! We'd pass a joint while watching Amos and Andy or whatever was on TV, it was a nice relationship. Then, once I became single, it got worse. Before, after I fixed her fridge, she wanted to give me a kiss on the cheek, and it came uncomfortably close to my lips. Then she started standing in the doorway while I came inside, so I'd have to press past her to get in. Then she'd touch my arm, leg, small of my back when I was doing chores for her. It got to the point where she would wait till I was high, and then ask how big my dick was, and if I'd let her go down on me. Just repulsive behavior. I've since stopped helping her, and always decline her offers to smoke, despite missing how we used to be.
All of this to say, guys get sexually harassed, Guys get sexually abused, and Guys get unfairly depicted as predators in hurtful ways. But also, girls get sexually harassed, Girls get sexually abused, and Girls get unfairly depicted as cold honey pots in hurtful ways.
What we should all do is try to be more kind.
The fact that any point made in this post, no matter how reasonable a complaint, or how heinous it would be considered if done to a woman, will likely be derided and dismissed as misogyny, mansplaining, whining, etc, and all male participants in the discussion labeled as incels.
Incel
Last time I checked, women were overwhelmingly likely to be granted custody over men, even when the man is a better parent.
I feel like your example makes claims contrary to reality. Are you saying women never get fired for SH or SA? That's a claim you can make, of course.
This sounds like you're arguing in bad faith but I'll bite. Just replace never with rarely and you got it right
I’m kind of prude before I get to know someone. I can recall at least 5 times my friends tried to push a girl from the bar into my cab because they thought it was funny I didn’t want to take them home.
Just imagine the reverse situation. It’s the same as women calling other women sluts. Sometimes it’s the most vocal men that make the stereotypes worse.
I work in a company that seems to have mostly women in management roles and the area I work in has mostly women in our area as well. The things I've heard women say about men though would get any guy shit-canned within a day if he were to say anything like that about women. Women can straight-up say things like, "I hate men" or "Men are such assholes" or "What is wrong with men?" or "Guys are so stupid!" or "My husband is such a fucking idiot" or saying blatantly sexual shit about men that they have crushes on or find attractive. It's just a joke to them, like whatever. Meanwhile, if a guy were to say anything even remotely approaching to what I've heard in our office, they would be gone like nothing, there's just no tolerance for that.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not offended by women saying sexist things like that or talking sexually about guys, I don't give a shit, I've heard worse from other guys. That doesn't bother me and I'm not looking to get anybody in trouble over it, I just want tolerance from both sides. What bothers me is that men aren't afforded that same courtesy and aren't allowed to talk the same way. Women can talk shit at work all they want about men because "Fuck the patriarchy, old white men are ruining everything, etc", but whooo, if a guy says anything remotely out of line about women, they will be reported like that 🫰.
I don't know any specific cases, but one thing I've heard that police (at least in Brazil) will just laugh at and ignore, is when a man is the victim of an abusive partner.
Of course, it's nowhere as common as men being the violent/abusive partner, but it happens, yet "society" will effectively say "grow a pair"
It's funny how when talking about male victimization, people always feel the need to throw in a disclaimer that men are still "worse"
Which, I mean, they are:
— Source: United Nations Global Study on Homicide: Gender-related killing of women and girls
— https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK499891/
That's not to downplay male victimization incidents, but let's also not pretend the scale is the same.
Most studies show domestic abuse is almost always close 50/50 in perpetrators.
I doubt that very much, especially in relation to physical abuse and coercive control.
Can you show me some of these studies?
Basically everything women cry about men doing to them. If it is done to a man by women it is ignored or considered not real or never happened or okay and normalized as you put it.
Depends very much on the country
The shit older women said (and did) to me when I drove a cab in my twenties.
Also, not wanting to fuck someone, even if they're somewhat attractive.
Dress code at work. I work in investment banking. On a hot summer day I have to wear smart shoes, black socks, long trousers, long sleeved shirt. Women can wear whatever. It's fucking horrible
Go get the traveler suit from suit supply and some lightweight wool /cotton shirts, NOT the “performance” ones made of plastic. I live in the Deep South and I’m a consultant. This is so much better in the hot summer.
It does not address the problem at all. Attire requirements in big office settings are typically anti-men.
Yea, of course changing the materials of your clothes doesn’t change society as a whole. My point is that I work in an industry with a similar issue and have found a way to be comfortable, using fabrics and construction styles that breathe properly and are built to be cooler, mimicking some of the lightweight stuff that the women wear.
It IS helpful and this isn’t an anti-men thread, it’s an asklemmy about dealing with double standards. To be honest investment bankers work such long hours I’m surprised OP sees the daylight/unairconditioned spaces at any frequency to be able to complain about this
It wasn't always this way. When I first started working in the early 70s, women weren't allowed to wear trousers at work. Or have bare legs, even in summer. Women called bullshit, and the rule was relaxed in most places to allow us to wear trouser suits. But as late as the mid-80s I was chastised for wearing trousers at work. I had to point out that the then prime minister, a woman, wore trousers at work!
If you want the dress code to change, then lobby for it to change. I honestly feel sorry for men locked into their own notions of what they're "allowed" to wear. I remember a friend whining enviously about how breezy my summer skirt looked. I suggested he wear a skirt himself. "I can't! People would think I'm gay." Sigh.
Also - men used to make an effort! https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5ec9401b929e439dacc2a56a/master/w_1280%2Cc_limit/Piepenbring-Codpiece02.jpg https://www.thecultureconcept.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/404448.jpg
As someone born in 1980 in Poland I was oblivious to women struggles with attire in the not so distant past. Thank you for sharing your perspective. And I love your sense of humor, those baroque outfits are hilarious
This thread is scary, a lot of you are being upvoted but your statements are just jealousy and anger.
Lots of projection going on here.
Lots of yall mad at women engaging in the type of behavior us men have exhibited forever.
You sure? Because what I'm seeing is a lot of sexual abuse towards guys that's not being taken seriously, or workplace social abuse towards guys that's mostly ignored.
Yeah, I’m pretty sure.
If you think I’m referring to the situations where men are referring to their abuse instead of the comments where people are just whining about women acting selfishly or shitty then that’s on you.
In fact my statement was specifically NOT about that.
https://lemmy.world/comment/11993090
^ women are now dating younger men, it isn’t fair.
https://lemmy.world/comment/11985350
^ women being empowered to find a new partner, sometimes on a whim.
https://lemmy.world/comment/11987028
^ women get away with everything and men nothing
https://lemmy.world/comment/11982251
^ the patriarchy being wielded by women against men … seriously?
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/13517729
^ opposite gendered things being not allowed for men … this one is so telling
https://lemmy.zip/comment/12800294
^ anecdote of this guys shitty relationship.
https://programming.dev/comment/11913607
^ this is just so shockingly blind and ignorant it’s hard to even refute. Women’s appearances have been basically the domain of us men for millennia or more.
Yeah, so, you are talking about exactly the kind of comments I thought you were talking about.
Way to go continuing to ignore legitimate issues, brushing them off as "jealous whining".
I didn’t realize this was an incel community, my bad.
Go back back to othering
It's behaviour like yours that makes the world's problems stay the world's problems. Ironically you're the kind of person this thread is about.
The irony...
If you believe the patriarchy doesn't harm men and can't be enforced or upheld by any gender, you have an incomplete view of what patriarchy is.
You're really representing a lot of these with bad faith. It seems like you came into this thread with a view and used anything said to justify that view.
Your first call out about and ignores the entire point being made and the clear double standard being called out. You seem more willing to play the victim than have an honest conversation on equality.
Imagine if men behaved this way about women discussing double standards, it wouldn't make you feel good. So why do it to men?
Can you please go back to twoX already? We escaped Reddit because we don't like toxic communities. Either don't bring this shit here or just go back to reddit
I'm earning 1.2-1.3x what women in my job are earning, but when we go out to lunch, they want to split the bill according to what each person ordered. That makes me feel guilty, which is very unfair.
That is an intretresting view.
I understand, and respect the sentiment. However, in a co-worker dynamic, it makes sense everyone pays for what they order. I think they would feel guilty if you were buying them lunch. If my co-worker payed for my lunch, I'd want to buy for them next time. Putting a bunch of colleagues in an "I owe you" situation (intentional or not) probably isn't the best idea.
I think you could offer to cover tip for the table and be within reason.
If they were making more money than yourself, would you expect them to cover part of your bill? I think most men would say no, you pay for what you eat.
For a birthday or something, go ahead and push it a little more, but don't refuse when they return the favor (assuming they are decent people).
The fact they want to split the check is a big step from the steryotype of women expecting the man to cover the bill. You're not their wallet, and if they treat you like it, run.
In my experience, the only time a single person will cover most of or all of the bill is when they are celebrating something, like getting a promotion or moving to a new team.
that or if they have the company card
(and are allowed to use it for meals every now and them)
In that case, they're probably your boss.
Thanks very much for the good advice. I think I will pay the tip in addition to my portion going forward. That should even the score.
No problem
If they insist of covering their tip; you can sleep knowing you tried, and they can sleep knowing they can pay for their own food.
This is a troll
pay grade aside, do you mean that it fills that you as a man must pay the full bill
i am leaving this comments since your getting higher down vote ratio without an explanation for why
This was asked 37 million times on Reddit.
Cool, this is Lemmy.
No, this is sparta.
this is a Wendy's?
No, this is Patrick!
And it's refreshing to see what people have to say instead of getting attacked by rabid feminists, getting mass down voted, banned and have your comments removed. If you don't like open discussion reddit is perfect for you