higher wages for the servers... by the customers. Fnbs
Went to a restaurant in LA today and when I got the check I noticed that it was a bit higher than it should be. Then I noticed this 18% service charge. So... We, as customers, need to help pay for their servers instead of the owners paying their servers a living wage. And on top of that they have suggested tip. I called bs on this. I will bet you that the servers do not see a dime of this 18% service charge. [deleted a word so it wasn't a grammatical horror to read]
So it's a mandatory tip, and it's also suggested you voluntarily leave a secondary tip.
Tip culture in America is so aggressive.
It’s getting stupid in Canada too despite our laws being different (as in, you cannot make less than minimum wage if you work in a place that allows tips).
I got my oil changed a few months ago and the machine prompted me for a tip. For what? The mechanic did their job, I paid for said job. Transaction concluded.
I tried Crumbl cookies for the first (and last, holy crap overpriced) time. Got asked for a tip. For what? I got six cookies in a box and then had to leave the store because there’s no seating to eat them there. The person who helped me took my order. That’s it. Another employee put six cookies in a box and put them on a counter and said my number. Not a lot of wiggle room to go “above and beyond.”
What’s next? A tip at the grocery store for the cashier scanning my groceries? A tip at the drive-thru?
Here’s a tip. Don’t work for an employer who doesn’t pay you what you’re worth.
EDIT: Actually, the tip at the drive-thru is already a thing. Starbucks prompts for a tip at the drive-thru. For what? The barista took my order and made my coffee. I drove up to a window, took it, and fucked off.
I booked a hotel online the other day and was asked if I want to leave a tip... A tip for what? I didn't even interact with a human. Just clicked a few buttons on a website. Am I tipping the web developer?? Lol
As a developer, I never get tips. Even on my open-source stuff, I have a “tip jar” PayPal link on the very bottom of my readme files. Never asked, never required. Know how much I’ve made in tips over the years? Exactly $0.
Have you tried walking into your software's users' homes to clear away empty plates and refill their water?
I know it feels gross, but asking is how you get people to do things. This is true for pretty much everything. That’s why mobile apps have a popup asking people to leave a rating, and Apple even has a standardized API for showing that popup since it’s so common.
So you should try something similar for you projects. Come up with an (ideally non-intrusive) ask that feels like a personal request rather than just a link dumped somewhere in a readme.
And if you feel bad about it, just remember that getting people to pay for OSS is a win for the whole ecosystem!
I've definitely tipped developers (through the 'buy me a coffee' site, or occasionally patreon). But I'm unusual I think..
I got prompted for a tip from an online pharmacy last week. So we're apparently tipping on medicine now.
Starbucks barista doesn't even "make" the coffee. They use superautomatic espresso machines. Starbucks coffee sucks ass.
Does it suck because of or despite the machines?
Superautomatic machines make inferior espresso shots objectively. For various mechanical reasons they will never make espresso as well as non-automatic machine.
That being said, I own one at my house. It's very convenient and it's passable espresso (when using decent beans, Starbucks burns their espresso beans and that's the main reason it sucks). However, if I'm paying $5+ for a couple shots of espresso in whatever form I'm expecting it to be made right. Not worse than my mid range home machine makes with a couple button taps.
In the US you generally cannot make less than minimum wage, the employer can directly pay you less as long as your full compensation (pay + tips) are at least minimum wage, if not they are supposed to pay more.
I think the explosion of tip questions is due to the card processors figuring out there was an untapped area where they could pressure people to tip and skim off a percentage of that.
That’s the thing here - the employer must pay you the same regardless of tips. Tips are always a bonus, not part of your wage.
Service charge I would presume is primarily paid out to the non-wait staff at the restaurant. The kitchen in particular.
Tips go to the wait staff, and they will pay some of that out to other staff (e.g. front staff) depending on how the restaurant works.
These are going to be separate. The service charge is there so they can increase prices by a tightly controlled amount without needing to fuck up the carefully targeted price points ($8 or $7.99 is a lot better than $9.44). Which is shitty, to be clear: it's a hidden way to increase prices while still advertising the same price. But it's not something that replaces or complements the tip, it's just a shitty price-adjustment.
A waiter or waitress is still going to be dependent on the actual tip.
Why don’t the restaurants just pay actual living wage then?
THIS^
pay them , what You want to ... And increase the price on your menu ... BUT DO NOT STICK 😞 YOUR CUSTOMER WITH A HIDDEN FEE ...
Especially when we(customers) HAVE to pay tip 😉 ... {{ Like 'TF was the person who came up with the hidden fee even thinking... 😞🤔 ? }}
flips table
Someone needs to ban this account.
If I share the little green pieces of paper, I can afford a used Toyota. If I keep them all to myself, I can buy a new Cadillac and drive past my starving workers in style.
Can’t hear them crying over a V8 exhaust right?
Because they're allowed not to do so. The answer is shitty yet simple.
Someone not tipping won't change that either; all that will do is stiff a worker. This needs to be fixed by changing labor laws.
That’s entirely bullshit. A restaurant can absolutely pay a living wage and not do tips. Plenty of restaurants do it.
The simple fact is that servers don’t want that. They make more in tips.
I hear this repeated so often and it ignores one glaringly obvious fact, servers aren’t the ones making any decisions…literally anywhere. They are the absolute bottom rung of decision-making. It is most definitely the restaurants that are just fine paying as little as possible. Servers do love mandatory gratuity however. Working a party of 10 when only one person tips on their own meal can mess up your whole night.
Point to your credit here: it's illegal in this state to pay less than minimum wage whether the employee is tipped or not. ALL workers make at least $15.74/hr here, except for 14 and 15 year olds who can be paid 80% of minimum wage.
... I didn't say they can't do so. I said they're allowed not to. Since it's allowed, that's what they do.
That’s a good question, and the easy answer is ‘they should.’ As the commenter above you mentioned, they use it as a tactic to advertise the same (competitive to other local restaurants) price people are used to. A more transparent way of doing business would be raising the price of the menu items to compensate staff fairly. The restaurant owners/management fear that if they do this it would drive away customers who believe the food is overpriced and look to their competitors. It’s easy to say, ‘just pay the staff a fair wage,’ but not quite as easy in practice. Most restaurants are small businesses just barely scraping by. The OP is right to be annoyed, but as always, context and a basic understanding of a situation’s underlying principles make the easy answer difficult to implement.
Put a banner outside saying "no gratuity necessary, the price you see is the price you pay!" and watch what happens.
I worked in restaurants for years and this is the correct answer. I also die a little inside at how many posts say to pay servers a living wage but then balk at the idea of paying extra for the meal. Where else would the money come from??! As you said, if they raise menu prices, their competition will undercut and do this. It would also affect takeout prices where tips are usually lower. People hate tipping and want a magic solution where waiters make more but also nobody’s charged more.
Because then they'd have to raise prices.
Especially nowadays with so many people looking up menu prices online before going somewhere, it's a way to present your prices as lower than they actually are.
It sounds like a hidden fee to me... Which is like lying to someone .. anyways at least that's what it looks like to me if not Fraud
Because liberal mystification with fancy-sounding concepts made to make you feel dumb so you don’t realize it’s just creative surplus labor value expropriation
Biden was in the news saying he wants to get rid of hidden fees. I was surprised that restaraunts weren't on the list of industries being targeted. This kind of fee should be illegal. It should be required to be a part of the up-front price.
Hell, I feel the same about sales tax. It should be baked in to the price you see on the shelf or menu.
Found their website. They use a lot of flowery words, but I think you sum it up pretty well.
https://www.jonandvinnys.com/service-charge
Lol. this makes me want to stand in front of their restraunt with a protest sign saying " this restraunt likes to charge hidden fees "
Or they can get a less shitty employer. I see a hidden "service" fee, that's the tip, take it to up with the owner, I'm not responsible for this. Restaurant staff really need to start directing their anger and efforts at their employer instead of customers.
Ya... That doesn't seem realistic to me. Very few people will "direct their anger" toward someone with power over them. There's always risk in a addressing issues with your employer because they can make your life worse. They can fire you, reduce your income or working hours, become inflexible with scheduling and demands, remove benefits, etc. No, it doesn't always go this way and there are plenty of fine employers. But even if you have a reasonable employer and are free to raise concerns, there's still risk and confrontation.
And what about alternate employers? Restaurant staff can go find a better employer, right? Except, job searches are very difficult and it's near impossible to identify a good employer from a bad one while interviewing. Very real chance that you make a change and end up with more problems.
Don't get me wrong. These hidden fees are 100% bs. It's just not the employee's responsibility to fix things. They usually have zero power in these situations. "Be good to the customer or I won't get a tip. Be good to the employer or I won't be scheduled to work."
Thank you for posting this you are correct the fee goes to the restaurant and they use the money to pay the back of house. In my experience it is just so the restaurant can provide the same wages as before to back of house but not out of the restaurants pocket. This tends to result in people tipping less so the server directly makes less money. There is also often no accounting/oversight into how the restaurant uses the fee. If I recall correctly the city of Los Angeles is looking into the legality of how these fees are presented to the customer and the fact there is no oversight.
So what’s to stop them from setting all prices to 1 cent and having the rest as service fee?
There are restaurants who don't show you the price, so nothing I guess
Reminds me of how dealerships can sell cars above the MSRP ... SMH
(( They do it in US but not in Europe; or so I heard ))
The S in MSRP is "suggested", so I don't see any technical problem with it. I think we need a separate term if it's meant to be a locked price point across sellers.
Owner wants to get his cut, server wants to put gas in their car. We’re a country of 350 million attempted unique make it rich stories and it’s a goddamn mess.
We need UBI and jobs programs aka Trek after WW3…but I fear we may have to fight the war to get it
How is this any different than just raising the price of everything by 18%? But you see service charge and a percentage and its an outrage.
If you raise the price of everything by 18% the prices on the menu will be 18% higher, possibly discouraging people from eating there. If you add it at the end people will still choose to eat there at least once. It is practically the same as raising prices, just a lot more dishonest.
Also illegal. It's called bait and switch. Advertise one price, provide the service, then change the price. What if you went to get $50 in gas, and after you put the nozzle back the price suddenly changed to $59. Unless there's a very visible sign saying it would happen before you started pumping, it's illegal.
I'm sure that they have a sign by the front stating that they do this. Probably on the menu as well. I doubt that most people are doing the math themselves and are more likely to see a $10 menu item and think it's $10 + tax and fees. Basically the extra fees are an afterthought.
Because raising the price of everything lets you know ahead of time that you are paying more. I'm fine with a price hike if it means servers get better pay, but hiding it like this is scummy and borderline fraudulent.
It isn’t hidden. They tell you upfront there is an 18% charge, however they rely on people ignoring that or psychologically not caring and only looking at the item price.
I wonder how many people would see the warning and assume it just means an 18% auto gratuity? Because that's very common and the amount is exactly what many auto gratuities have (or at least had when I last was in the US, which was several years ago). Because if I saw something saying there was an 18% service fee, that's what I'd assume. I would not think there'd be a tip on top of that.
That said, the US custom of not including the final price (including taxes) in the posted prices is a shitty, toxic practice and should be illegal.
They are trying to tell you to not ask for a livable wage.
It does make sense to increase all menu prices in order to pay higher wages, but it's a sleazy dishonest practice to hide that increase from the customers until it's too late.
Listen to this scam.
I stopped at a Starbucks kiosk to get my kid a juice box the other day. When I paid for it by card the card machine prompted for a tip, 25%, 20%, and 15%. Here's the kicker, 25% was selected by default! You actually have to use button on the machine to move through the selections to get to NONE. To top it off the lady behind the counter casually said, "Oh you're using a card? Just press the green accept button when the menu comes up." which would have selected the 25 option.
It's not a tip. They've literally just increased the prices without showing and lying about it on the menu.
All the arguments about tipping here are missing the point. The restaurant owner just came up with a bullshit way of raising the prices without showing larger numbers on the menu. That should honestly be illegal.
A lottt of restaurants in socal do this, unfortunately. I've never seen it this high, though.
maybe it’s to allow take-away at a lower price, like a dine in vs eat out charge.
Very rare, I’m from Ireland & have only seen it once in a Chinese restaurant. They were very clear about it in the menu though so it wasn’t a sticker shock price
we have that in Egypt. normally like 15% service charge when eating in the restaurant but nothing when taking out.
I've seen some restaurants adding a take-out fee recently. It's fucking insane.
Won’t somebody think of the poor restaurant owners?? They need all the money they can squeeze out of us!
The thing is, by paying for food we should be paying the employees - that's how salaries work. But in an effort to out-compete each other in the razor-thin margin business that is most restaurants, they don't want their menu prices to go up, because that discourages customer spending. So many restaurants use underhanded tactics to screw customers instead. Hidden menu prices, sneaky service fees, and begging for point-of-sale tips at places where they're not getting paid shitty server salaries (like fast food).
Best to cook at home
I’ll be the one to stoop to a name and shame. From the receipt, that’s Jon & Vinny's Brentwood. Thanks—will now be sure to avoid going there.
i went to the one in Fairfax. i should have known something was up. when my wife (who wanted to go, she doesn't speak english so she was just looking at the pictures) showed me this place, i saw that their rating wasn't as good as i thought it would be. but since i was driving i didn't check. now i know why.
Jon and Vinny's is such great food too, it's a shame that they pull this shit. Last time I went, I just rounded up to the nearest $ and paid with cash. I'm not tipping on top of an 18% auto gratuity. I would say they should just raise their prices, but that place is already very expensive...
All wages are paid by customers. Where do you think the money to pay them comes from? Heaven?
The underhanded and sneaky part is that the menu prices are a lie. If they want to pay a decent wage to their employees, good on them, but they should just raise all menu prices by 18% instead of surprising you later.
Kids pasta shells are already $16.25. I don't think they can raise them any more.
Of course they can raise prices higher.
Sadly, there have been studies (too lazy to find a link) that indicate being sneaky like this, instead of raising prices, leads to a better reaction from customers.
if by better reaction you mean never ever return there, then for sure...
You nailed it. It's artificially deflated prices, and dishonest..
Would be the last time I visited them.
Upvoted, but just want to say that the payment usually goes customer -> owner -> employee. Don’t let the owners trick anyone into thinking that someone other than themerlves are responsible for paying employees.
If the service charge is always there then just raise prices by 18% and stop misleading people ffs…
Corporations invented Jaywalking to pass the problem of death by vehicle from the manufacturer to the victim. Corporations invented the concept of Litterbug to shift blame from the makers of trash to the disposers of trash. Corporations invented the concept of the personal carbon footprint to shift the blame from the makers of carbon to the users of carbon.
This is just the same thing. Corporations are good at this.
What a joke. Just raise your prices and put it on the menu. I would refuse to pay that. That was not listed anywhere before you ordered.
Those prices are already wack, holy cow
It's California pricing with added 9% inflation.
I don't know why this logic hadn't occurred to me until you said it. Strikingly obvious argument for raising prices on the menu.
They aren't doing that because nobody can do the math in their head to figure out what the actual cost of the menu items will be. Much better (for them) to hit you up with a charge at the end and blindside you with percentage surcharges.
It's alarmingly frequent in California and should be fucking illegal.
I thought the point of paying servers a living wage was to make tipping unnecessary.
Any auto-grat on a bill is an instant big fat 0 on the tip line for me. Fuck double dipping on customers subsidizing shitty wages. It shouldn’t even need to happen once. If the restaurant can’t pay a reasonable wage it shouldn’t be in business.
I would be completely okay with a restaurant charging a bit more for meals if they also had a “do not tip” policy. Wait staff should be expected to do their jobs, the restaurant should be expected to pay their employees. As a customer I should be expected to pay the restaurant, full stop.
What is this nonsense? I mean, since the customers are the only source of income for a restaurant, of course the customers pay for the wages.
But why hide that behind obscure markups (that's all a service charge/tip is)? Why not just price the food 18% higher and drop the service charge?
That way, the restaurant earns the same money, but the customers actually know what they are going to pay and the restaurant visit doesn't end on a down note when paying.
People look at the menu, decide the prices are reasonable and eat. They then get hit with an 18% service charge and (in the US) a 20% tip on top.
The restaurant could increase their prices by 18%, but then people would decide to eat elsewhere. Of course they'll do that anyway after being hit with all the charges, but the owner thinks it's worth it to get the custom once.
Wild that somebody would decide $22.25 is reasonable for chicken wings. Maybe for 100 of them ...
They seem to be massively overcharging, which makes the whole thing a lot wilder. At those prices they could afford to pay their staff well and abolish both tips and service charge..
Suspect the owner is just a knob.
It’s in LA, everything is expensive and well is very relative. Minimum wage is almost $17.
Why would you tip when the restaurant just pre-charged an 18% tip? They say it isn't a tip but it goes to the employees so, unless the service staff was beyond exemplary, just don't tip. It's less than I would have anyway.
I wouldn't tip on that either.
You're stating the obvious. The owners are making a political statement.
Does anyone now if the restaurant pays different taxes on food/drinks sold and tip/service fees?
In Washington (everywhere is different) a service fee is taxed as income to the restaurant. A restaurant is not taxed on tips. It's better for the restaurant to not do a service fee (less taxes) than tips
If a Washington restaurant is charging a service fee, it has to be posted. The verbiage has to say how it's being used/if the restaurant is taking any portion
Name and shame. Fuck this place.
Also “kids shells” for $22? Please tell me this is not macaroni and cheese.
It's almost certainly a Mac & Cheese variant. Stuff like this is why I heavily research restaurant prices before going out.
Gem lettuce for $22? Wtf is the US smoking?
Just Los Angeles things 🤷♂️
Since it is L.A. the markup is because of the volume of people willing/able to pay $22 for a kids Mac and cheese. At that point the tip is just mocking the workers of the restaurant.
the most concerning part for me is the "LA woman" charge... is that just a restaurant?
I mean, that's basically the way it works. Here it's just 'transparent'.
Want to pay workers more - food gets more expensive. It's the same thing with America not adding sales tax to the sticker price. When I get something for 2 bucks in Europe, it's 2 bucks including the vat. In America, it's 2 bucks before vat.
But yeah, it's probably not properly implemented and just a scheme to get more money out of people.
Except it's contingent on people making purchases. If there is a slow day, you work the same amount of hours but earn less because your pay isn't tied to how many hours you worked, but how many sales were made. By doing it this way, it takes the risk of running business off the owners shoulders and puts it on the workers instead.
What i meant is that, in a theoretical mathematically sound world, to support higher wages, you need higher prices. The service charge shouldn't be put as a 'bonus salary' - basically the 'service charge' in most countries is included in the price of the food, and is paid out as the hourly wage to staff.
Wait a minute, are you suggesting restaurants are just normal businesses that can be run like any other? Because that's heresy. Restaurants are Special, because Reasons.
This is the opposite of transparent. When I order food, I’m agreeing the pay the listed price for the item I ordered. Adding 18% on top of that when it comes time to pay is hiding that fee.
If they want to charge more, they should raise their prices
Also by making it a service fee instead of a tip, management and the owners are able to tale part of it. Tips legally have to go to the employees, service fees can go into the owner's pockets.
The service they're giving you is information. Specifically, information on where to never eat again.
I hate tipping culture, but this is just on another level of bullshit. I'll begrudgingly subsidize a server's wage, but there ain't no way I'm about to help line the pockets of the greedy fucks who refuse to pay a living wage.
I'm not in america, in our country when we buy a meal the tax is included, as is the cost of paying staff a living wage and tips are really only given (volunteerily, without prompt) in certain scenarios where service might genuinely be extraordinary.
It's always been fascinating to me that it could be done any other way and to be honest it sounds incredibly complicated and quite shitty the way america does it, it seems to me like it's an old fashioned relic from the swashbuckling 1800's, pay your maiden well and she'll make sure your mead is always topped up.. But in 2023 it seems absurd, prepared food and drink is just a product like anything else, do you tip at Walmart when you buy a TV?
Knowing some of the absurd stories I've heard from americans (tipping car salesmen, pharmacies..) then tipping walmart wouldn't surprise me at all.
Sure, the tipping culture is out of control, but anyone who tips a pharmacist or a car salesman is just a moron.
Walmart has a policy where you are not allowed to accept tips. If you are caught you are fired. People try to tip all the time for the grocery delivery stuff and if they manage to get money into your hand or the delivery basket you have to inform a member of the management staff. Granted this might not be true at every location but it is part of the corporate training you have to do if you work there longer than 4 months.
"We want to charge you more, but we want to make sure you blame our wait staff for it."
I wouldn't be surprised if the QR code sends you to a website bitching about "the current administration".
EDIT: https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2023-07-03/after-lawsuit-jon-and-vinnys-change-service-fee-language-on-bill
From the site they link to:
Maybe they should change the "Suggested Tips" with "Had exceptional service? Feel free to add a tip." and start at 5%
Also, they should be clear if all or part of the "service charge" goes towards employee salaries.
From:
https://www.jonandvinnys.com/service-charge
How about businesses pay their fucking employees? What a concept
And just how are they going to be able to pay thier employees Mr smartguy? From the crazy over priced dishes they serve? Huh? What, from the $650 pizza making course they offer? You think they could have four sister restaurants and have any profits? Please, inform us where they could possibly get enough money to pay thier employees real life adult wages.
Isnt that what they are doing here in theory? (assuming they arent just keeping it and not paying them higher wages)
At the very least there should be no tip option since thats what the service fee should be doing, but in theory this is what everyone online appears to want... higher prices and better pay for the employees (unless everyone really just wants the same prices, no tipping, and higher pay for the employees)
A list of L.A. restaurants doing this shit from a Reddit sub:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1EEPzeytrva770H2xPFFPDUUNdpnL_VQL4vbzFph-jus/edit#gid=0
Of course it's in L.A.
They definitely have it in other California cities too. And not just in restaurants.
A chain resale/consignment hipster shop in NorCal started adding a percentage service charge years ago with the same excuse, and you'd only find out about it if you looked at your receipt. The fucked up part is that they also raised their prices so high that I couldn't shop there anymore. It's one of those buy/sell/trade clothing stores, so the whole point was to pay less for decent clothes. But if they're already raising prices significantly, why the fuck do they need yet another charge to pay their workers.
I also think they really must believe it makes them seem "progressive" somehow. Like "oh look, we're on the workers' side!" and they hope no one eating/shopping there will think about it any more deeply than that.
That doesn't say "on the worker's side" though. It says anti-consumer and selfish. They're not willing to pay any more if it means they make a little less, they're just comfortable taking more money from other people.
You realize 100% of the money they’d use to pay their workers more would come from consumers right?
It could come from profit margin, but that would require the higher ups to not be greedy assholes.
Of course it would. It doesn't have to (Dan Price is an example of a different model), but it would. At least by wrapping it into the prices consumers can clearly see that increase, instead of this shoddily hidden tactic.
Buffalo Exchange?
The alternative is that they just jack up the menu prices to accomplish the same thing. This is just the equivalent of pricing things at $19.99 because people don't understand that really means $20 which sounds like a lot more money.
So let's say you checkout at the grocery store tomorrow and your $100 of groceries has a $20 "employee wellness" fee tacked on. You see that and pricing an item 1 penny below a round number as the same thing. Really?
No, you'd leave the store having paid $120 for groceries with no wellness fee tacked on.
Yeah, please if you're going to charge me 40 bucks for a salad just put 40 bucks on the menu. Or 39.99 If you must. I greatly prefer that over listing the salad as $30 on the menu, only get blindsided by a separate $10 service charge on the bill. Matter of fact can we just go to putting the entire cost of the item on the menu?
Everything should be on the wheel and out the door pricing. Doing any other way is absolute bullshit.
You'll get no disagreement from me!
No, because the difference of seeing a $19.99 price versus a $20.00 price is that I see it up front. That's more honest than tacking on a $21.50 hidden fee after the fact.
Why don't they just raise their prices a bit? Adding a "not" tip to the bill just seems odd.
Because then the owner can't advertise a lower price for the food and then sneak in the hidden "service fee" at the end.
That should be considered bait and switch.
It's pretty much the dictionary definition of bait and switch fraud, yeah. Whether it de jure is in a legal system so obviously disfavoring workers in the vast majority of cases is another matter entirely, though 😮💨
😥 Horrible. Over $150 for chicken wings and macaroni, and still prompted for a large tip.
I bet legally, the establishment owners aren't required to give "service charges" to their staff the same way they are required to give 100% of the tips...
This is some shady shit, IMO.
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer (so I don't know WTF I am talking about), so if someone here that knows the law could comment on "service charges" vs. "tips" in this context, I would love to know.
Looks like a couple of their employees are suing over exactly that.
https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2023-07-03/after-lawsuit-jon-and-vinnys-change-service-fee-language-on-bill
Jesus. They try to be altruistic and say that tip culture isn't fair (and it's not), but you know the altruistic thing would be to... Not have tipping then! I'm in Seattle and there are tons of restaurants like this that have a fee, but then tipping is genuinely not allowed, they don't accept them. Everyone gets a fair wage.
That 18% is definitely not going to the staff.
And for the owners, here's an idea, why not just make the menu items 18% more expensive and remove the fee altogether?? And if that means your food is too expensive... Literally yes. Why does your food cost that much?
Tyvm for finding this article!!
" The announcement and change in billing language comes after a Los Angeles Times article published on June 21 about the class-action lawsuit filed in Los Angeles Superior Court against Joint Venture Restaurant Group Inc., which owns Jon & Vinny’s. The workers claim that the company denied them tips and therefore shortchanged them on their take-home pay because of confusion resulting from the 18% service fee.
California’s gratuity law requires that tips be remitted in full to non-managerial service staff. "
SMH ... What a bunch of assholes; screwed their customers and then their staff...
Hope they get fucked / hope justice is served
The word that should be there is "gratuity." I'm quite sure you're right, and I know there are horrible owners for sure, but I would have to think it would be impossible for a restaurant nice enough to charge $22.50 for a mini plate of pasta to retain good servers if they did that. Restaurant owners who operate fancy high-priced places would have more sense than to alienate their salespeople.
It's LA, so I assume there are plenty of douchy "haute cuisine" wannabe places that charge $50 for a handful of steamed rice served in a styrofoam coffee cup under the name "Riz Derelicte" or some stupid shit like that.
what a unique and lovely culture.. and so, specific..
DAMNIT MAN, i already filed the lawsuit and put your name on top as a reference
Makes me think 🤔 if I went to a grocery store and they charged me a membership like Costco without actually disclosing it... Sounds like fraud if they don't disclose this service charge / fee at the very beginning... They should have it plastered big all over the place because looks like most of us wouldn't expect something like this...
"Restraunt" food is expensive as it is IMHO, even fast food isn't a great deal unless you buy with a coupon or some 2 burgers deal 🤝... Otherwise it's not worth it... Not to me anyways ... :/
If only I could simply use a coupon to get a decent price from a fast food place. Nah, instead they all demand that you install a datamining app to maybe get you prices that would've been the regular price just a few years ago.
Ye... I hear Ya
Frankly, the prices to sit in and be served and the prices to get the food and leave should be different. But this should be pre-informed so patrons can make the decision whether to dine-in or take-out.
Those prices are about what I'd expect to pay at a restaurant here in Finland too, maybe a little more here but somehow they're able to pay a living wage to the staff from that without extra "service charge" or tips.
Are you paying your servers a living wage or not? If yes, I'm not tipping.
Even if all the money does make into into the staff's pockets, the owner still averts financial risk by making worker pay a function of sales. An employer must have higher business risks than their staff, because otherwise the staff wouldn't need an employer anyways! This absolutely goes against the high risk - high reward scheme that is common place elsewhere. Want to earn more? Take a risky choice! Just want stable support for your life? Get employed and earn a regular wage.
[face palm] that is an amazingly important point I hadn't thought of / not heard discussed before, about the service fee vs actual increase hourly wages. I mean it's totally obvious now that you said it.
And I really do agree with owners taking the risk if they want the reward. I will only say that there IS a place for balance, and reward for performance. I think the current tip system is tilted WAY WAY WAY too much to the server's risk and needs to go away. I also think restaurant margins are actually too thin to go 100% wage based and put all that risk on the owners. I fear the bankruptcy churn in restaurants would be too much.
And yet it seems to work out in Europe so I'm probably wrong.
In Europe everyone charges what's needed to pay the staff, with varying tip/no tip cultures. There's no added risk. In the US unless everyone suddenly switched at once (eg. making tipping illegal overnight) then the restaurants that increased prices would be taking a financial risk because it might drive customers away.
In truth, food price probably works out about the same anyway.. in the US the menu price has service charges tax and another 20% added on top of that for a tip. In Europe the price on the menu is what you pay. . it already includes everything except the tip, and tipping is voluntary for good service (depending on country, Europe isn't one culture).
Found it by the "helens shazzy" https://www.jonandvinnys.com/menu I don't live in LA so everything I see is based solely on the website. I read zero google reviews.l and just dove right in. TLdr -op you got finessed. Stop eating here my guy.
It seems by their website that fee is ONLY mentioned on the wine page (also based on this receipt and op statement, this fee is EXCLUSIVE to wine buyers for some reason) where they also charge a $50 corkage fee (most normal restaurants are 20-40), and also stock rotates "so frequently we can't maintain an updated list" which seems silly, but maybe stock at all 3 locations changes often enough that this really would would be a pain. The restaurant itself is....all over the place. Italian, and breakfast foods? But also there's Helen's Winery attached? And on weekends they act as a bakery? And they have "pizza classes" for $650? Idk they have several "sister" type restaurants that are either owned by the same owner or its some kind of franchising thing, but they're all equally VERY expensive for the food you get. Very upscale. For example [buttermilk pancakes, salted butter, maple syrup 16.25] compared to IHOP "chicken and pancakes" for $14 where you get not just 2 pancakes and butter, but 2 drumsticks. ADDITIONALLY on the Wine page "Modifications are politely declined." what does this even mean? No changes to wine? Or no modifications to your MENU? Dawg if I'm paying you 20.50 for a rigatoni, you're not putting "broccolini" in it.This shit ain't mom's house where I go to bed hungry if I don't like it. I sit at the big kids table and get a big kid fork.
For those just reading the slip, these are indeed all full dishes (not just single line items), in LA where everything costs more. Overall 0/10 I wouldn't eat here based on all this above, before even being infuriated by the "we pass the bill to you" shtick. I'm mildly infuriated just reading through this website.
WTH is a corkage fee?
A few charged for opening a bottle of wine. It used to only be charged if you brought your own bottle to the restaurant.
How are they supposed to sell wine without opening the bottle? Is it optional? Can I open it myself instead?
In most places its not legal to serve yourself alcohol you brought to the restaurant yourself. So as a compromise many restraunt owners will allow you to bring a bottle of wine that they dont carry, and then charge you a fee to serve it to you. This means they are staying within the law with respect to liquor laws.
For example where I it is illegal to give away alcohol tor free. If a restaurant serves it to you, even if you purchased it before hand, they would be serving it for free and thus a violation of the liquor laws; hence the corkage fee which allows restaurants to so serve you your wine within the law.
https://www.touchbistro.com/blog/corkage-fee/
Right, I finally got it now. I thought a customer had been charged this fee on top of their bottle of wine, but I see now that “corkage fee” is just something that was found on their wine menu, and then it makes sense with your context. Thanks!
There better be a big noticeable sign at the entrance telling you this. Otherwise, this is a bait and switch scam. Advertising one price, giving the service, and then changing the price. You can't advertise a price and then charge more for it without ensuring that the customer is informed about it. The only exception is tax, since it is something the average person should already expect. Even mandatory gratuity for large parties has to be communicated ahead of time. And this specifically says it's not gratuity, it's a charge for the service.
As soon as a customer is served something, it's too late. You can't just put it on the bill. Doesn't matter what they say it's for either. It's not your responsibility to pay the servers anymore than it's your responsibility to separately pay for the ingredients of the food. Unless they want to detail it all out up front. But then you'd see the huge profit margin.
Still seems mad to me that usalanders don't have tax included in their advertised prices.
The primary reason is that taxing is done at state, country, and city levels and they all apply different amounts in different areas. The tax can vary just crossing out of a city and into an unincorporated area or between neighboring cities. So rather than having different prices when you provide services for customers in different locations, it's easier to separate it out.
Like I used to do tech support for small home based businesses mostly, and so I didn't have a "place of business". I had three sets of customers, one lived in my city and county, another lived in my city but a different county, and another lived in that second county in a different city.
Originally, I was just charging a set hourly rate and eating the tax cost even though it was a pain to figure out the math. The problem came when with some of those rates, because of rounding, charging that amount for one hour might work ok, but charging that same amount for 2 hours or 3 hours would make it off by one cent and there was no way to reconcile it for the accounting software and tax forms and such. And I didn't want to charge pennies. So I just made it easy and all new customers I charged tax separately.
When I worked delivery, at multiple places, we did in fact not see a dime of this fee. Got chewed out by customers a couple of times over it though.
This is a fascist tactic to turn people against the servers and shame those who want higher wages
Huh? It’s just greedy owners. Don’t overthink it
Since the receipt says the 18% "helps facilitate a higher living base wage for all our employees", then that's already the tip. So I would write the word "ZERO" on the tip line, and never return to that restaurant.
I've already stopped going to anywhere that:
Pulls stuff like this, or
Wants me to input a "tip" for fast food (which includes coffee shops - looking at you, Starbucks) and other places that don't use the traditional waitstaff model for pampering and serving your table, or
Makes me input a tip up front before I get "service" or even product.
All of the above also means I'm eating a lot less garbagey and/or overpriced food-stuffs from restaurants these days. Better health. More money in my pocket. Higher quality food.
Wait, $17 for Lettuce??
What the devil?
Insert copypasta
22.25 I'd say
You're reading it wrong. The Coke is $3.75. Match the prices to items up from there.
as you wish lol
The crazy thing is, Los Angeles' minimum wage is already 16.78, and restaurants are required to pay servers at least minimum wage in California. None of this lower minimum for tipped workers. So they are adding at least 18% to that, unless the 18% service fee brings their workers up to minimum wage, which is dishonest, but wouldn't put it past a restaurant to do. After all that, they have the gall to sti ask for a tip!?! It's beyond bs.
if the waiter gets all the 18% (lol) thats more than an hours wage for a table. and then tip expected on top.
Sorry, the whole system over there is just bonkers. drop the tips and charges and just pay fair and be done with it. that actually seems like a semi reasonable minimum wage too tbh, although without any tipping could go a few dollars higher
Is it even legal to force you to pay more than the menu reads? I know tipping 18% is a social norm now in the states, but you can technically say no to that. Can you say no to this service tax?
The menu clearly states the service fee.
“Per CA state law, water is only served upon request”
Because we all know that the biggest contributor to the water crisis: glasses of water sitting untouched at restaurant tables.
I've stopped going to restaurants because of shit like this.
My favorite Mexican place that I've been eating at for 15+ years is still offering a fair price. I've never really paid attention to prices before but it's been a real kick in the balls lately to dine out! My wife and I can eat there for $20. Vegetable fajita and garden quesadilla with waters. Their delicious salsa is made in house too, not sure about the chips. The kitchen doesn't always hit a home run but most of the time it's phenomenal. Not kidding, I feel like I'm taking advantage of them, $20! That's literally what I paid on date night in 1994.
This is bonkers. Just include it in the price... I would definitely refuse it and have done it one time, when it was not clearly stated in the menu that service will be added. The waiter claimed it is "a standard fee". No, it's not and should never be.
Did you pay $16.95 for lettuce? Tf kinda restaurant did you go to?
think of it as a very expensive salad. it was good but.... not $17 good.
Idk, I don't even pay that much for kosher food and the smallest and cheapest kosher burger I've ever seen cost $5 with $10 being closer to the average
A nice one. :)
OP post the QR code, I would love to know what restaurant this is, so I can stay clear away.
https://www.jonandvinnys.com/service-charge
I don't understand what the difference is between adding the service charge and increasing prices. Literally no justification for this, just a "trust us, bro".
The difference is "We don't want to raise the listed prices on our menu."
Wow. Fuck that restaurant. Fuck it to death. Fuck it to hell. Fuck it F O R E V E R. This shit should be illegal. If this is permanently part of the price IT SHOULD BE THE LIST PRICE ON THE ITEMS. PERIOD.
And that is why in some places in the world, service fee is illegal.
…only mildly infuriating?!
At least this restaurant due is showing their own ass.
All I want to know is .. What the flying fuck is a "shazzy" and is it delicious?
I love to spread the shazzy on the LA woman
I spread the shazzy on the kids' shells. It's delicious!
I don't like my kids with shells they hurt my teeth
Kids Shells are expensive, bro, don’t sully them with your cheap shazzy.
The woman was cheap though
I think it's okay if there's a service charge, but it should be obvious like this and tipping afterwards shouldn't even be brought up. It's not the best solution for everyone but it's a step in the right direction of no fucking tipping
Ok yeah what you are complaining about is valid but I can't get over the $22.50 for Kids Shells... Like a fucking a pasta serving for children?! This restaurant seems insane to begin with.
Edit: Realizing it looks like prices are a line off but still $16 for kids food?
$22.50 for kids shells? Please tell me where this is so I can never go there.
Demand they give the service charge to the server. I’ve done this with a manager recently and he was so embarrassed when it was brought to public attention he promised he would. Then I said, it was simply disgraceful to see an attempt to double dip with a mandatory charge a server wouldn’t see. But I’m a large man, so might not be easy for everyone.
Turns out my local casinos restaurant does this aswell but its called a forced gratuity.
Those prices are bloody insane to begin with. >22$ plus tax for chicken wings??? I can eat for 3 days just for that.
I live in a Asia where service fees of 10% are normal with no tipping culture.
I can see why people may think 18% is too much, but honestly tipping culture should just be gone entirely. Waiters shouldn't have to rely on customer tips, which can vary for different reasons even ones that may be outside their control, to earn a living wage.
Forgive my ignorance but what's the difference between a service fee and tip in this context?
A tip is consensual
You must pay the service fee.
Also, usually the fee is a stated amount - with tip, you pick the amount (though you get guilt trippee into picking higher amounts).
Let the manager know that you won't be returning and make sure they understand why, then never return.
It's great if they include it in the bill, it gets rid of the tipping culture. If they still ask you for tips then tell them to GTFO
They should then adjust their prices by 18% on all items and not have this bullshit on the receipt. Let the customer choose when ordering how much they are willing to spend instead of this. It will make the process much clearer and avoid confrontation. Bad judgement on the owners.
I agree, but I'm okay with this as a compromise. I'm in Seattle and we've been fighting tipping culture for a while now. I'll take an 18% fee over those bullshit "suggested tips" that are now starting at 25%
I think the service charge bit, that is widespread as an alternative to tipping in Europe, makes a lot of sense in general.
Key word in the above sentence is: alternative
Exactly...
This to me sounds like ;
A High tax
A High tip
A High hidden fee
((At least to me ... I am not poor, but I am cheap / frugal at least when it comes to food))
That's exactly why so many restaurants are adding service charges nowadays. It's a way to legally take tip money from servers.
There's already a service charge, why tip more?
You had a los Angeles woman for only 3.75?
That was the coke, but still a damn good street price.
A dish made famous by The Doors
Oh, please help me on this.
I'm Italian and going on a trip to the western US in less than two weeks, and still haven't understood how to behave wrt tipping/service charge.
In my previous trips to the US, before this nonsense was automatically added to the bill, I would tip between 15 and 20% depending on my level of satisfaction with the waiting staff.
What should I do now, when visiting places auto-charging a service fee?
Any advice is appreciated, thanks!
If they're auto-charging it, don't tip any extra on top. Check every receipt because in many places you'll see they automatically add gratuity. This place is definitely shady for adding it as a "service fee" and then still putting suggested tip amount afterwards. I would say do not feel guilty and do not think twice. Service fee implies that it paid for the service.
With any luck, this becomes widespread and ends tipping culture.
Let's hope so, as someone who's not used to it, I find it quite confusing and not really transparent. Plus it's kind of a guilt trip every time. I would take a higher overall bill which covers staff salaries any day. Must also be much better for service workers as they'll know they'll be able to pay THEIR bills, whether the business is doing good or not.
Thanks!
As someone in the Eastern US (grain of salt there), this rarely occurs but if it does it is usually when a place serves a large group (justified as the extra difficulty for serving so many people at once). If I saw this applied in another situation I would 100% consider that a tip, give them nothing, and never eat there again. If it was applied when I went in a large group I'd say it can go both ways, but I'd definitely not go back there with lots of people again because it feels like its an attempt at fleecing the customer for more than the trouble is actually worth. Alternatively I might tip less, taking the 18% into account already as a tip. Overall, I'd say it's bullshit and a good proportion of the people I know would agree.
Hope your trip goes well
Thanks! Seems a reasonable approach
Most places still don't do this. Just look out for it but you probably won't run into it. I would say that these days 20% is kind of the new 15%.
Ok, thanks!
If that 18% ain't on the menu, I ain't paying.
So they think they are a hotel providing a venue and service? I worked in Hospitality as HR and the service charge made sense for the weddings and events we did... But a smaller restaurant using a 'service' tax that they most certainly do not feed back to the employees, is predatory.. and as the consumer eating out... I would be disinclined to tip now... If they really used the service tax for the employees, the tips would not be an option, because the staff would be adequately compensated... They wouldn't need toa sk for the tips... This restaurant wants it's cake and to eat it too
That's absolutely insane. I would let them know that it's the last time I ever set foot in their establishment
This would be one of those rare times where I would wish I had cash.
I'd tip the staff directly, based on the original amount, then leave exactly the price of the ordered items, not including the service fee.
Then I'd leave.
See, I'd check with the waiter to see if the service charge actually was used for higher wages. Just because management says that's what it's for doesn't meant it's true.
It doesn't matter if it is. The way to do that is to increase your prices, not with hidden fees.
I'm okay with the fee IF that means no tipping. If they have a mandatory fee, fine. I prefer when they just raise the prices and I don't see it, you know, like everything else. (There's not a plumbing or electrical fee), but at least everyone gets a fair wage. This is bullshit though, the fee means no tip. Tipping should be gone then if there is a fee.
Absolutely.. service charge or tip, pick one. No double dipping.
Here in the UK service charges are always labelled 'voluntary' to get around the law I think. They're incredibly bad for business though.. people don't like having extra charges slapped on and the servers don't like being asked (not always politely, from what I've seen) to have them removed. People don't go back to such places.. It's been a while since I've seen a restaurant try to do it, but I reckon they're still out there.
Not being from the US, I'm not familiar with the practices there. What kind of shells are suitable for kids? Is 12 necessary? Or is 20 sufficient?
"Kids shells" almost certainly refers to a basic pasta dish, "shells and cheese". It's just macaroni and cheese but with shell pasta instead. And the bill denoting "kids" likely means it's a smaller portion than usual. Quite possibly the cheapest item on the menu to produce. The price for this item is insane.
I'm not sure what you're asking with the 12 or 20.
Edit: ok guys I got the joke, thanks for the subtle hints
It can be hard to gauge what people mean sometimes
You only need three shells
Lol this guy doesn't know how to use the shells!
What do they actually pay their staff?
If they do pay them above the norm, idgaf how they show the pricing; on menu is better, but not vital.
But if they're paying the same shit pay as everyone else, they need to have the shit sued out of them for something
That place is already out of my price range before the 18%!
Ask the waiter?
Yes. The manager will just repeat what they're told to say. Ask a waiter if they're actually being payed significantly more since the fee was added.
Did they charge you 3.75 for being an LA woman? 😂😂
Prices for food in a restaurant is not that hard to calculate: you figure the cost of one plate of food, multiply it by four and that is price to be charged before taxation.
One part is for the pantry. One part is for the kitchen staff. One part is for the room staff. One part is for the house.
Not hard to figure.
Drinks and beverages are basically all profit, unless you want to drink water with a refined meal (the healthiest/best option but most people won't), so you will pay for a soft drink twice or triple what it costs you at the store and lets not start talking about wines, beers or, even worse, spirits.
I rarely use tip based services bc it shouldn't be my concern and it makes me uncomfortable. It's always been a bad business model to make the customer feel like the workers are slaves that don't get paid enough. Never understood why people are so into going out to eat with that dynamic unless they enjoyed the power dynamic of it all, dumb serf get my food or you will go hungry muahhahaha!
Can anyone just fill a complain?
I have a feeling we don't do enough.
It must be something to protest legally as a hidden fee or something. I would put money in a crowdfunding for cases like this.
Citizens against apathy or something.
K, just did my part gonna keep lingering.
More than 10% service charge is unacceptable already where I am. Let alone asking for a tip on top.