America's nonreligious are a growing, diverse phenomenon. They really don't like organized religion
apnews.com
Mike Dulak grew up Catholic in Southern California, but by his teen years, he began skipping Mass and driving straight to the shore to play guitar, watch the waves and enjoy the beauty of the morning. “And it felt more spiritual than any time I set foot in a church,” he recalled.
Nothing has changed that view in the ensuing decades.
“Most religions are there to control people and get money from them,” said Dulak, now 76, of Rocheport, Missouri. He also cited sex abuse scandals in Catholic and Southern Baptist churches. “I can’t buy into that,” he said.
Religion ruins everything.
Besides architecture. Cathedrals are dope. But everything else, yeah.
I don't hate some older religious music.
Religion was at the center of everything 500 years ago. It's gonna take credit for a lot of stuff because you could barely do anything art related without religious involvement.
And every now and then they'd go on a rampage destroying other people's and eras' art.
Don't forget about the part where the only way you could be somewhat literate was if you were indoctrinated into their little cult.
I do like the sense of harmony that comes from singing together, but yes you don't need a church for that.
The Shining's opening theme was based on a medieval Christian hymn, day of wrath or Dies Irae. I love deep vocals and latin lyrics, it's so soothing.
Not all musicians believe in god but all believe in Bach.
Gregorian chants are epic
But maybe stay out of rock?
I agree...except the Sagrada Familia which fills me with irrational anger. Looks like Poseidon walked on shore and squeezed out a sand turd. It's so goddamn hideous to me. If I was the god who Gaudi built it for, he would not make it into heaven. I hate it so much.
Not really, it’s just that people can’t stand by this
Even religious groups hate organized religion. They just make an exception for the one they happen to be part of.
Ricky Gervais said something super interesting to Stephen Colbert, who is a Catholic. It was something like "We actually agree on a lot more than you think. You think that thousands of other religions aren't true. I think the same thing, plus one more."
Early Christians were accused of being atheists by the Romans, since they didn't believe in most gods.
Sometimes I wonder what Abraham would think knowing literal billions of people worldwide worship the god he made up.
And what he thinks about how all the different sects all hate each other so much.
The one thing most religions agree on is that all other religions should be eradicated from the world until only the true one remains. Turns out they are ALL right!
I don’t mind people going to Church and practicing their religion, as long as they stay in their lanes and they’re not trying to force their religious beliefs on everybody else. Trying to better yourself and your community is great, there’s a ton of really nice people out there who go to Church and are just all around good people. It’s all the assholes that think their belief trumps everyone else’s rights that need to eat shit.
Not minding your own business is pretty much why Europeans settled North America...
The Pilgrims love to say they escaped persecution, but really they were far right extremists who were all pissed off most of Europe wouldn't follow their strict rules.
So they came to America and started pumping out as many kids as possible. With the goal to become the majority so they could force everyone to follow their rules.
We're worse off because there's no more "empty" land to send them all too. If we ever colonize another planet, it's 100% going to be extremists overwhelmingly signing up to go first. Until then, we're stuck with them.
The sun would be a good place, plenty of space.
"Staying in your lane" is the exact opposite of what Christians and Muslims are explicitly ordered to do. Convert acquisition is the primary objective of both faiths.
The Bible says if a family member considers another religion (or you just suspect they are) it's your duty to God to kill them before it spreads to other people in your family.
It's why ill never trust the people who claim they have to follow the bible literally. Either they don't know what it says, or they're absolute psychos.
Edit:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2013:6-10&version=KJV
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage
Well, I heard somewhere that it is written in the bible that those who scorn the bible will be visited by apocalypse, fire, earthquake, and flood which will obliterate your cities, but for those who believe in the bible will save themselves and find true redemption.
And I also heard somewhere it may have also stated in the Bible that the power and the greatness of God cannot be denied. Those who reject the Path to enlightenment must be destroyed.
Quote from the Bible?
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2013:6-10&version=KJV
Exactly this.
Dont forget the part about having as many children as possible and convert them too.
There is no religion telling their servants to love their children even if they are not religious.
Honestly while I get that the whole "you do you" mantra is the politically appropriate line these days...
No, I'm fucking not ok with people practicing their religions.
I'm really not ok with people telling their children that it's not only possible for dead bodies to get back up and float up into the sky, but that it 100% happened and is the only reason they aren't going to suffer eternally.
I'll not ok with getting together to talk about how men are inherently better than women and that it was fine that an old dude raped a 9 year old because she was mature for her age.
I'm not ok with passing along the instructions that who your parents were defines an appropriate social caste for the rest of your life based on the supposed mechanics of resurrection.
These are not appropriate things for a modern society, and honestly I'm tired of pretending that it is fine.
Yes, I think the right to have the government not interfere in religion is important, but that's a separate issue from whether or not I'm 'fine' with the superstitions from an age when people peed on their hands to clean them continuing to be given a social pass purely out of respect for ancestral tradition.
The thing is the whole purpose of religion is to force beliefs into others to attract them into the religion and make them pay money. THAT'S LITERALLY WHY RELIGIONS WERE INVENTED.
There is no "Im religious but I let other live their lifes." They are constantly being told to invite friends and family to convert them and to have 10 children, so the children can be converted too.
I wouldn't say I mind it but like seeing someone passed out from drug use I would rather they didn't do that.
They need to start paying taxes too. Church is a business of graft.
Religion is a mass delusion.
Not a fan.
I am a Christian and am willing to throw myself into the ring.
I think we deserve all the hate we are receiving and more. I am a firm believer of the separation of church and state, because I actually have studied the history of that phrase, and I know Christians wrote it in blood.
Very little of that matters though, because the balance of power has been shifted too much into our area.
We were supposed to minister to people, wash people's feet, love their neighbor.
Christian's were supposed to be servants of our communities, and instead we became the rulers. Instead of showing compassion and understanding, we are tyrants with no passion, logic, or understanding for our fellow people.
Just the love of Money. "In God we Trust"
There will be a power shift back, and I don't think Christian's are ready for the blow-back. But I will say, we will deserve it, for we have become vile tyrants.
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
― Mahatma Gandhi
this is insane
Best response would be to say they might just not be Christian enough
I personally hope Christians use the blowback as a way to reconnect to the core principles of their faith and reflect on the precepts of radical kindness at the core of Jesus's teachings. I feel very fortunate that my family drifted wide from religion back in my Grandparents day. I grew up an outcast in my wider community but there was never any question we were loved.
A lot of people who joined our open family did so with a lot of baggage. Families that figured them as failures for not living up to expectations or who had some kind of isolating pain their religion told them they basically deserved. It made me feel rich in a way so many were poor just being cherished by my family for being unreservedly me. It becomes an armour that makes me very resilient.
Being queer I see a lot of the people I know deal with this broken part of them, this rejection that who they are is not loved by the people for whom our society posits their natural attachments should entitle them love... and am able to be there for them. A lot of those who flee from religion do so as true refugees. They have to build from nothing. The reason queer communities are tight knit is because they realize that people can't exist without some kind of family and if you don't have one you make one from scratch.
A lot of the people in this position don't nessisarily hate the religion but they intimately know what it has taken from them. When your neighbours love you more than your family your neighbours become your family.
This is what I fear most. But it happens every day. Most Christian's paths don't start until they leave the church and most never do.
I am glad to read this. Communities are a big part of growth. I think the modern Christianity lost that bit somewhere along the way.
They will, the problem is it will take time. I just wish we didn't have to hurt everyone seeking that growth.
In many ways queer culture is sort of a radically inclusive space informed by decades of response and radical fighting against the forces of trauma. Drag Queen's have lineages of Mothers and Daughters, Drag Kings tend to form packs to perform. Queer events hold barbeques and brunches, create taverns and diners where queer culture is passed between generations as a way to keep old lessons alive and give people safe places to go to ask whatever they need. It is a community of outcasts who decided that the world needed less outcasts.
Here in Vancouver the last time I went to a drag event the Queens were advising everyone to keep more cash on them because homeless people often could not access free places to cool down to keep them safe in extreme heat events. Radical inclusion and the willingness to see flawed people as humans is one of the queer community's strengths. It's often paired with a lot of black humour and silliness but the core of the thing sometimes make me think that but for the lack of emphasis on spiritual belief there's a lot of underlying philosophy that Jesus probably wouldn't be too upset about.
I mean, you threw yourself in here, so I feel this is fair game...
Listen, while I certainly respect some of the concessions you are making here in acknowledging the issues with the broader issues of modern Christianity, at a very fundamental level the core beliefs are problematic for a modern society.
My guess is that you believe a dead body came back to life and floated up into the sky.
In part, I make this assumption because Paul effectively mandated this as a litmus test in 1 Cor 15 in response to Christians at the time who rejected that belief.
So you believe that things outside the scope of what is naturally possible has occurred.
This is then tied to a belief of inherent unworthiness such that without this event having occurred, you are somehow deserving of suffering and it is only through this event that you could have avoided such a fate.
You were most likely fed these beliefs as a child - beliefs people in the first generation after Jesus weren't even all that keen on - and you will likely continue to pass them along generationally.
The entire time effectively ignoring that the version of Christianity which survived was simply the one that had successfully adapted beliefs in line with supporting authoritarianism of the Roman monarchy, of slavery, and of financing the organization out of the pockets of its members, etc - ideas that I'm skeptical you'd end up endorsing if they were positioned to you on their own, and are each beliefs that can be individually challenged on their connection to a historical Jesus in the first place.
So the social exchange of even a "good Christianity" minus the worst parts of today's oversteps is still one in which children are raised to believe in magic, in their inherent unworthiness without the religion, of continuing on outdated and obsolete social norms and practices, and on preserving ideas that benefit authoritarianism.
Much as I think you'd probably agree it wouldn't be good for people growing up in a world of science and technology to be indoctrinated with beliefs about Muhammad having been able to split the moon in half or a belief that the universe is in fact the dream of a giant turtle, beliefs that you yourself subscribe to happen to run counter to everything from an evidenced based approach to understanding the world and our place in it.
Christian certainty in their beliefs led to suppression of ideas ranging from the notion matter was made up of indivisible parts (atomism) to the idea life that existed around us was not from intelligent design but simply based on what survived to reproduce and what did not - both ideas present and broadly discussed in Jesus's day.
With all due respect for the freedom to have faith in something, at a certain point faith should not be put on a pedestal over evidence backed evaluations and it is necessary to let go of the past in order to embrace the future.
Fellow Christian here, well said! I am so sickened by Christmas who want to use the government to force their beliefs on everyone else.
Name checks out.
Luckily there are no Christian babies to abort
You are the only person (so far) that’s understood this distinction in my name.
It’s intended to be inflammatory but also to make the point you did.
Isn't there at least one sect out there that believes in "Christian while a fetus"? There are so many denominations it's hard to tell. I just had a quick look at the wiki page on original sin and at least the LDS people believe there's no need for children under 8 to be baptized, though I'm not sure if that means the kids are LDS while younger than that (or fetal). There was a bit about some Quakers rejecting original sin as well, but again I'm not too sure of the implications.
Technically correct is the best kind of correct!
I've heard about the "rise of the nones" for fucking years now. I'm in my mid 30s. When the fuck will this trend translate into policy reform
When the all 80+ year olds in congress
retiredie outYep.
Doesn't matter how religious voters are when the options are both hardcore Christian.
Like, Biden not being actively anti-abortion was enough to get American bishops to start talking if they should try and get every Catholic church in America to refuse to give him communion.
He's still not really pro-abortion, and we'll never really know if that's because his incredibly organized church is against it, or if he just doesn't care enough to push for codifying abortion rights.
He's the most high profile because he's president, but lots of House Reps and Senators are in the same boat.
Organising nones is like herding cats. The evangelicals do not get their power from their number. They vote uniformly and reliably, turning out for every primary, local, and federal election.
We are a diverse bunch with diverse opinions.
The moment we start voting
Have you looked at the age of the average politician? It'll change when they all die of old age and someone sensible from the younger generation takes over.
my concern is that they seem to have indoctrinated or allied with enough young people that i'm no longer certain it will matter.
When the nones outnumber the religious which is still a while away.
Around the time the majority of our lawmakers learned about the Vietnam war in a history book.
This is a question of attrition. Religiosity is dying out and so, in a sense, is neo-conservativism, and that’s why there is such a huge push to the right in many parts of the world. It’s the last desperate gasp of people who know that their time is up. They are doing everything they can to stop it from happening but it’s inevitable.
The problem is that as moderate critical thinkers leave religious organizations the organizations are becoming more polarized by the foolhardy remnants which leads to large organizational efforts to do stupid nonsensical things.
Instead of having anti lgbt protests, or anti abortion protests, we should really start having anti religion protests. They are really a cancer to society.
I think the only thing we lose is community -- I'm jealous that religious people automatically have that.
The solution of course is trying to return to having neighborhood communities.
Join a bowling league.
Do anything every week with the same group and you'll establish that same community...but without the grifting and shaming.
Instructions unclear, now stuck in MLM organization with grifting and shaming. :D
10/10 can confirm though it was Friday Magic Night for me.
But I'm introverted and my hobbies are video games :c
Exactly I started playing pool at a local hall right by my house. Great way of meeting new people.
Getting out and doing stuff in public is a great way of communicating.
Sounds great, but the local bowling alley in my rural redneck town was just sold and converted to a community church. 🫤
Go bowl down the isle of that church.
Not like they need it on any day except Sundays.
Actually, I quite like the idea of secretly setting up some pins and rolling the ball down the aisle on a Sunday.
You're outta your element Donnie!
Love the idea here, but I wonder if there could be an alternative to religion/churches that still allows us to congregate and deliberate about meaningful, philosophical affairs that religion poked and prodded at.
I know The Satanic Temple seeks to do this in a way, but I wonder if our universities and colleges held more opportunities to engage with the general public on meta/physics, epistemology, ethics, etc., topics also challenged by religion, we might fill the rational void people might be seeking.
I'm telling you from experience that their "community" is fake. The people are fake. Under the fake stuff that looks nice on the outside is a deep culture of judgment and shame and fear. It's not any community I would ever want. Like family get together for family's that hate each other but they fake it.
To those who will try to tell me "well not ME or MY church." I don't care and I don't believe you. I have been harmed too much too consistently by these groups.
Yeah I guess there's an inherent danger with a community where going against groupthink is a sin
There are for sure exceptions to this. But by and large this is absolutely spot on in my experience. It feels like getting together with paid actors that are hired to be your friend or sell you sometime in the end sometimes.
Funny, that's what Christianity seems to be mostly about anyway.
Try Humanism. Find your local chapter. Its the community of "church" without the need for god(s)
The solution could be more rooted in philosophy too, but it's been a long time, at least since the time of the Greeks or Romans, since we've had Schools dedicated to the deliberation of meta/physics, ethics, epistemology, etc.
And I'm not talking about modern education here, the education that's meant to bring up the youth and develop them into functioning adults. The Greek/Roman Schools to me seemed like places of conversation, debate, etc. that anyone could join (I know that philosophy was mostly restricted to the aristocracy in ancient times, but that would be the goal today).
Maybe the answer is modern schools today, but with an effort to host local communities for thought discourse. Maybe it would look like wrapping together TED Talks with the minds of debates you see in New York that are like full blown events.
And maybe universities do deliver this kind of activity for their community that I nor you have access to because they're not near us. Dunno.
I think another aspect to consider is that after the pandemic, multigenerational homes have become more common. There could be a really great sense of community in having a bunch of large families raise their children as a village.
All I want is separation of church and state, like it's supposed to be.
Even according to Jesus
Jesus is a real G compared to supply side right wing Jesus. If he ever does return, we'll kill him again because he won't be relatable to the rich.
Even if that dude were to return, he'd take one look at the modern day Pharisees his followers have become and think of the adage "burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me" and keep his mouth shut this time around.
It turns out that no, in fact there was no one with two good ears in the crowd after all, and only a fool would make that mistake twice.
Or, you know, we could just ditch the church part entirely. Playing pretend about your favorite book is okay as a hobby I guess, but it doesn't deserve government sanction or protection.
I say this as someone who went to religious school until 9th grade, and was deeply involved in church through 12th grade.
Read charitably, the Christian Bible is a bunch of fantasy role-playing bullshit. Read realistically, anything not attributed directly to Jesus is a bunch of pedantic repressive bullshit, with the occasional nice axiom thrown in ("grey hair is the splendor of the old" etc). The Apostle Paul, for example, was the original TCOT, and would be a megachurch pastor today. He just loved telling everyone how to live.
Jesus - if he actually existed - went into temples with a whip and literally started flipping tables. Today, he'd be exiled from the church his followers founded because he's too "liberal" and "weak."
Religion, and in particular the vast cult of that is American Evangelical Christianity, has no place in the modern world. If there is a God, they only take us further from him. It's a tax-free business built on graft and hatred, which they relabel as "tolerance" and "love."
Cut off the tax-exempt status of any church or ministry that speaks to a political end (e.g. "Julie Green Ministries"). If they're really that altruistic and pure of heart with clarity of purpose, it shouldn't stop their mission.
There is nothing special about expert knowledge in the fantasy world of the 1st and 2nd centuries. Theology is strictly a study of invented bullshit, with the aim of subjugating others. Even majoring in Harry Potter or the Star Wars Expanded Universe would be of greater benefit to society.
Religion has no positive use.
I used to have that really common thought of "I don't care what you believe in. Just don't try to push your opinion on me."
No. It's bullshit.
The very existence of religion is a psychological drain on society. We are all worse off the longer it stays around. There is no such thing as a good religious person and anyone who says they are religious I immediately distrust.
Yeah. It's at the root of a lot of the problems with conservatives in the US. Religion trains people in believing because they were told to believe, and holding to these beliefs in the face of all suffering and hardship. It's a gateway drug to conspiracy theories and paranoid delusions.
Gateway drug to conspiracy theories?
Religion IS a conspiracy theory
I don't immediately distrust religious people but I do kind of roll my eyes and smirk a little bit on the inside.
If I'm lucky I can manage to keep the eyeroll and smirk on the inside. I'm kind of inelegant with social graces though.
That's a bridge too far for me.
Yes, faith is in and off itself detrimental to our society. Religiosity is a strong detrimental force, a mind-virus, a meme that damages the ability to clearly perceive reality.
But just like people who are infected with an infectious virus aren't bad, not all religious people are automatically bad people. I don't think they are good because they are religious, but that doesn't mean they are not good or not religious. So let us not fall into the same absolutist thoughts as the fervent deniers of secular goodness.
The good ones enable the shitty ones.
Agreed.
I have met good people who are Christian. They usually don't cowl all their behavior behind god.
There you're friends dad, who barely knows you, who helps you get your car running so his kid and friends can make it to a metal show. He didn't like metal, but he kept it to himself other than saying it wasn't his genre, which is a fair statement.
Why did he devote an afternoon and a couple trips to auto zone? Because all in all we were good kids. He wanted us to have fun, but to arrive (and ultimately) come home safe.
The comment you are responding to is reactionary in nature and surely the result of a great deal of pain and trauma at the hands of the sort of people they are referring to. In this case, I think it is ok to let someone express their emotions and assume that they don't really mean for it to be a universal statement.
I've known extremely religious people that were very kind to everyone around them, only focused on doing good in the world, and never pushed their beliefs on anyone else. "Good" and "evil" are very reductive and simplistic terms. Good people can have beliefs that are not good for society and they are not completely defined by that. If we go to that absolute then there isn't a good person that exists. Pretty much everyone harbors beliefs, irrespective of religion, that when examined may be detrimental to society, they just don't know their own blind spots.
Well said. Though I will say that we need to stop giving religions passes for bigotry.
Churches in the US get huge tax breaks, can set up explicitly racist schools, or they can operate worse than the worst MLM. Some of the followers are somewhat to blame, but really it's the organizations as a whole that need to be revisited.
Why should my tax dollars subsidize a church building where the pastor tells their congregation that people like me are an evil that should be purged from society? Why should they subsidize a pastor that has a private jet? Or a church that actively protects child abusers and/or wife beaters?
And frankly, it's only certain religions that receive these sort of benefits. Any sort of native religion or niche religion won't get half the benefits we give to multimillion dollar religions.
Being religious is not a requirement for doing good in the world. If the religion did not exist these extremely religious people you know could continue to do good in the world while not simultaneously supporting organizations that enable corruption, abuse, dishonesty, violence, oppression, etc, etc..
If anyone is still believing in these hokey stories or exploitative organizations they are either willfully ignorant to the world around them, gullible rubes who are victims of a centuries old scam, or actively benefitting from that exploitation.
I stand by my statements. Religion is a virus. It's a net negative in the world that stands in the way of all human progress.
As a gay person, I have a saying that is similar: "When I meet someone who says they are conservative, I know that I have just met someone who wants me to suffer."
What is it you hate so much about religion? I could see disliking specific religious practices, but what problem does every religion share that makes you immediately distrust all religious people?
Religious people push their beliefs on people all the time, that's what it is made to do so people can concentrate power. If a religious person has kids, you can guess how they are going to think. The whole idea is just complete bullshit and so stupid that anybody with a capacity to think critically knows it is false. Only people incapable of self reflection or thinking actually believe it.
I don't mind organized religion. What I do hate is that religion pushing their beliefs onto everyone they meet, pushing their religion beliefs throughout school systems, etc. If religious can keep to themselves, I see it like yoga or CrossFit.
A crossfit trainer, an ex-marine, and a born-again christian all walk into a bar.
We know that, because they won't stop telling everyone.
I'm surprised this comment has lasted 6 hours without anyone saying "there's no such thing as an ex-marine"
I, too, am disappointed by the lack of offended ex-marine comments.
why ?
Because SEMPER FI !!! OOORAH!!
Clearly, you haven't met crossfitters
Clearly you don't own an airfryer
Or an instapot!
Or an ARCH user.
No, but my wife wants us to :(
Or a bidet
IDK about equalizing religion and yoga. At minimum, the yoga exercises seem pretty useful for getting a flexible and healthy body, and (judeo-christian) religous ceremonies are mostly just a reason for people to get together, which many other activities can do as well.
The positives that people get from religion are mostly about the feeling of being part of a community, with their own lore, rules, codex and ceremonies. Just like DnD groups, with the major difference that some members actually belief all of that stuff, which is spooky and dangerous, because that opens these people to all sorts of other crazy ideas.
Since religions compete, that doesn't sound feasible.
Although all religions are useless and shouldn't have any privilege, only to be practiced in their own spaces, I am aware that not all religions compete in a proselytistic way. I understand that, for example, Judaism doesn't proselytise and that "converting" to Judaism is even a long and difficult process, which makes me think it is like discouraging conversion, in some way, by making it so uphill.
I mind the normalization of magical thinking. It's the same reason I bristle at astrology and tarot and luck charms.
Unfortunately you can't have religion without people trying to evangelize. It's part of the problem.
But... you can. It already exists
its like they dont realize that christianity isn't the only religion in the world
That's not correct. Where I live, religion is intertwined with daily life and yet nobody ever tried to talk me into anything
There's a world of difference between "you should join my religion, we don't eat fish" and "my religion says you can't eat fish."
“Never do business with a religious son-of-a-bitch. His word ain't worth a shit -- not with the Good Lord telling him how to fuck you on the deal.”
― William S. Burroughs
When your congregation are loud bigots, racists, and assholes, or when your clergy fuck kids and cover it up, or when the religion as a whole surpresses or hates certain genders or sexualities... This is not a surprising trend at all to anyone reasonable.
I really cant wrap my head that religion still exist in this age. Like we have mass destruction weapons, rockets that go beyond earth, have proof of how vast the universe is and then what we fight over is how some God has dictated our life to be.
It's so dumb and pretentious. Like nobody knows why we're here, if there is a creator or not, what happens when we die, etc. Religious people act like they really have the answers to these when they are so comically wrong and fooled by people pulling stuff out of their ass.
Then, on top of that, to deny all of the things we have actually figured out about our universe and our place in it, the things we have actually observed. It's a plague on humanity, stifling our progress.
Yes. Exactly 💯.
If the god was so powerful, where was he during CoVID? Why didnt the holy water treat COVID?
"GoD aCtS iN mIsTiRiOuS wAyS"
aka: Sky daddy doesn't exist.
The only purpose religion serves is copium for people who can't face reality/don't want to think, and exploitation of power. If God existed and gave a shit, it would be clear, but it's so obviously man-made to anyone who wasn't brainwashed to be religious.
Every time I think about the fact that the belief that a dead body came back to life, floated up into the sky, and is expected to float back down at the end of the world isn't considered to be a psychotic delusion because it's so commonplace as to be normative I feel like I'm on crazy pills.
How?
How the heck do we live in an age of measuring how long it takes for light to cross a hydrogen atom, of seeing the complete observable universe, of building our own virtual universes - and yet intelligent people who are aware of or even involved in such efforts genuinely think magic is real?
I get that there's a lot of people who just don't have a good grasp on reality and think lizards running world governments is somehow a probable explanation for the state of things, but the part that destroys a bit of my soul is seeing people who clearly should know better but don't.
How are we supposed to collectively solve real problems when so many are unwilling to come face to face with what is actually real?
Yup. Like how we tell kids there are no ghosts, we should tell me there is no God.
Well, at very least "there's no objective evidence for either ghosts or God."
100%.
I have that same problem with meat eaters too. How is it possible that we know we are brutally mass breeding and killing animals for food we don't need, is fucking up the planet and isn't all that healthy either, while at the same time also pretending to be civilized human beings that care about animals and the climare. And every time I raise the issue people make the dumbest excuses I have heard a thousand times...
People, once brainwashed into a way of thinking and behaving, can just be really hard to change even if you have all the arguments on your side.
I have the same problem with monarchy. The only thing that disturbs me more than the existence of royals with their archaic rituals and inbred lines of succession is the fact that there are so many people who love that shit.
Monarchies are also deeply intertwined with religion, which makes it extra problematic.
I read a really interesting book called How Minds Change: The Surprising Science of Belief, Opinion, and Persuasion, and the author made some very interesting points.
It takes a seismic change in perspectives to change closely-held beliefs that are intertwined with our identities. I grew up as a devout Christian in an extremely conservative protestent young-earth-creationist denomination. I spent my Sundays and Wednesdays listening to the values preached from the pulpit: love, humility, repentance, understanding, protecting the vulnerable, meekness, charity, and unconditional love.
However, these same people when outside of church would spew tirades about "the gays", how poor people are just lazy, and how prayer wasn't allowed in school anymore. The love that was exalted above all other values on Sunday was just a platitude to give cover to hateful grievance.
And that was almost thirty years ago; they've only gotten worse. That's why people are abandoning religion in droves. The values that they sell are not aligned with the actual values of their congregants. Like the old Jim Croce song, their philosophy is "Let him live in freedom - if he lives like me."
Furthermore, losing one's religion nowadays is not the social exile it once was. People have support structures outside of organized religion. It's one of the reasons that Evangelical churches are so against a social safety net: it keeps the excommunicated from crawling back.
I agree with you overall, but do not agree with this point. There are very few non-commercial support structures in America for adults outside of organized religion, and even some of them (e.g. AA) are somewhat religious in nature.
I think they meant outside friends and family
Growing up in a super religious family and watching all the nonsense up close is why I’m an atheist today. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MOTHERFUCKERS
Hail Satan and donate to your local Satanic temple
Also grew up in a super religious family (homeschooled pk) and joined TST 4 years ago.
IMO brainwashing children from the time they're born into a religion that spreads hate is wrong.
Religion is cancer.
It's about time. I have been fed up with religion since 1978.
Proud to be in the statistic! Jesus freak to agnostic and very anti organized religion. Glad I got away from religion, I didn't realize what a drain on my life it was until I got out. I'm upset at the years I wasted, but live and learn I guess!
I'm with you. It was scary at first but quite liberating.
I feel you. Escaping a fatih is one hell of an experience, but so liberating when you can finally see if for what it is.
The older I get the more angry the concept of God makes me. It's hit the point where I hope I'm wrong, so when I die I can spit in his face and call Him a useless God
The idea that their "love" god kills, maims, allows horrendous birth defects, molestation, etc of children is one of the multiple proofs that god doesn't exist. Oh, and wasps and mosquitoes.
The bible describes God as a manchild that gets upset and throws a tantrum when his playthings don't function the way he wants them to. The loving, benevolent God only exists when things are going his will and then he gives out presents of kindness. It's pretty much the definition of an abusive relationship with a narcissist.
Abusive narcissists control people, so why not make up a magical abusive narcissist to control a lot of people?
Oh oh oh, let's make him omnipotent and gaslight everyone by saying all the abuse is just his way of showing love so we can excuse our own toxic traits as holy.
Speaking of controlling people, isn't it an interesting coincidence that the religions that tend to survive are the ones that say that the political leader (king, emperor, kaiser, tsar, chief, raj) has a divine right to rule, and is chosen by god? Also, what an interesting coincidence that whenever the king has a divine right to rule, the religious head seems to have a cushy life? How unusual is it that the suffering of common people is something that is good for your soul, especially if you bear the suffering silently.
It's like every successful religion coincidentally also sets up a society that's easy for a leader to rule over. Crazy huh?!
I just have more and more trouble believing that actual functional adults believe in this crap. My mom is one of them, and I keep boggling at her ideas.
Like, if she misplaces her keys then finds them, she thanks her god for finding them for her. Never blames it for hiding / losing the keys, of course. She's absolutely confident that her beliefs match what her god wants, despite hers being picking and choosing from the various holy books. Her church isn't quite mainstream for her religion. Her beliefs don't quite match her church. But, of course, she's right.
A family friend of hers is dying of dementia. He is non-verbal and can no longer feed himself. Soon he'll have to be on a feeding tube because he'll no longer be able to swallow. This, of course, is her god's plan. He wants a nurse to have to handle his waste and feed him with a tube. But, naturally, her god doesn't want those same medical professionals to assist someone in dying with dignity.
She also literally believes stories that are less believable than fairy tales. Apparently some holy person didn't eat or drink for years! This other one healed people! Another one predicted future events! We know these are true because other people from that religion verified it, and if you can't trust people of her religion, who can you trust?
How can an adult stop believing in things like Santa Claus and underpants gnomes, but keep believing in this religious stuff?
Religious orgs are cancer, they also steal tax dollars by avoiding taxes, corrupt organizations and their mansions
Not just mansions but the private jets are ridiculous. Seriously, some megachurch "leaders" have private jets. Some plural as in they have more then one for themself. It's sickening.
See: Joel Osteen
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=joel+osteen+private+jet&t=fpas&ia=web
Cancer is really a very good analogy. It is parasitic, self preserving, good for nothing, preys on the weak, always trying to expand and lure you deeper and total garbage.
Jim Jeffries said it best though:
https://youtu.be/m4GEhbQQdpo?si=a6TjBMj95pU7sH7Q
Organized religion is a poison masquerading as a cure. The opium of the people as it were. I will never cause trouble for a religious person who doesn't cause trouble for others, but organized religion I can not abide.
I always thought that the success of Religion boiled down to two things:
Now that I can’t abide.
all religions are based on lies and fairy tales
Not growing fast enough, sadly.
And I say this as one of them.
people identifying as irrelegious has grown from 5% to 30% in the past 50 years, but some skeptics say, like with left-handedness, LGBTQ+, trans folks, the actual number hasn't changed, just the reporting and the stigma around identifying as such has.
Honestly, from the people I've talked to in the furry community, there have been a few of them who are either A) still christian (though often with unorthodox views on what "sin" is, or what is required for someone to be "saved") or B) hold christian beliefs and believe that Jesus is a good role model (as he's portrayed in the "canon" biblical texts).
However, if you asked them point blank if they're religious they'd probably give you answers ranging from, "hell no" to "eh, kinda" or "it's complicated". All of them have expressed some level of distaste for organized religion though, which I agree with.
Imo religion's fine so long as you're using your brain and you aren't hurting others; we live in a fucked up world, if that's the drug you have to smoke to get through the day, then cool, go for it. However, everything starts going wrong when religion becomes organized.
One of the least spiritual things you can do is go sit on a pew and listen to a boring person talk.
Though it is a great way to catch up on sleep! Back when I was a "true believer" a lifetime ago I used to catch some serious Z's during a sermon, because even then I realized that the way sermons work requires an inaccurate view of the Bible as a cohesive work rather than an internally inconsistent anthology. Had there been an iota of academic or historical rigor I might have taken longer to become an atheist. But actual church history is anathema to faith, which is why pastors have to pretend the text speaks for itself and is timeless, rather than a collection of texts representing the thoughts of various groups, some of which were almost certainly diametrically opposed to each other (e.g., even the so-called synoptic gospels present vastly different conceptions of the "point" of Jesus, if you have eyes to see).
I actually really enjoyed that part when I was a young Agnostic at a private religious school.
I wouldn't actively participate in services, but was required to be there, and the sermons were pretty neat in truth.
Honestly I think if society got together on a weekly basis to listen to discussions on ethics and mortality without the supernatural BS it wouldn't be a bad idea at all.
It's the supernatural part that's super fucked up, and the guilt tripping. And the concept of inherent sin and unworthiness. And the authoritarianism. And the discouraging of critical thinking.
But the talks about the nature of the human experience and interdependency of society aren't that bad at all.
Of all the things organised religion promotes, being spiritual is very fucking far down the list.
Religion gave my family and the closed groups I was forced to be raised around excuses for all their abuse and desire to judge others. Religion is a core part of all my childhood abuse and trauma and my own adult issues. I have zero interaction with any of them anymore, and I cannot respect anyone who proselytizes in the slightest about anything.
In my lifetime, those who followed organized religion of many types are always those who are the meanest, most ruthless, judgmental critical assholes I have ever dealt with. They sure put on a good show, but I've seen who they truly are enough to spot it anymore. All bullshit. Excuses for liars to hide behind.
Agreed, and this is coming from a religious person. I think people who proselytize are extremely misguided. I understand wanting other people to be a part of something that is such an important part of your life, but that's not the way to do it at all.
I was raised agnostic and became religious later. I couldn't have the relationship with my religion I do now if I was solicited by someone else to do it. You can't give someone that experience if they don't want it. All you can do is be nice to them and help them if they are genuinely interested.
I'm just here to remind everyone that DISORGANIZED religion is an option! Not that we want you to join us! Fuck that shit! Consult your pineal gland if you're so god damned determined! Mine is fucking busy!
My disconnect is when they consider Trump a saint, but then say Obama is a bad guy
Turns out that if you can convince people that unless they behave in a certain way and follow a specific set of rules, they'll be dropped into a burning lake of fire when they die, they are pretty easy to manipulate for political reasons.
But shouldn't the ones they worship also hold to that very same specific sets of rules?
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." [Mark 10:25]
They're mostly concerned with one specific difference between the two. I'll give you three guesses.
I'm happy to be a part of that demographic. My upbringing only contributed to my irreligiosity.
I probably wouldn't have lost my faith if I was t constantly called a commie socialist for espousing 'christian' values and wanting to help the less fortunate by the very people who instilled those very values into my moral code.
Anymore I'm just a non-denominational pagan because at least pagans aren't such raging goddamned hypocrites.
Supply side jesus is always one of the funniest figures to exist.
I prefer to call myself a heretic whenever in the presence of someone who really cares, it's fun seeing the reactions.
Check some social gospel, those folks are basically what happened when the socialists in America decided to start their own church with blackjack and hookers
I hope that as more of the world gets access to the Internet and information that more and more people will leave religions. When I was able to freely read the history of different religions and critical analysis by atheists it made my mind up fairly quickly.
We are all born atheists. Religion is the oddity.
We are all born as social animals predisposed to superstition. Religion is practically inevitable.
Ok so, here's the funny thing, there might actually be a neural disorder to blame for the original polytheistic religions that morphed into modern religions.
There is the phenomenon that some people have an internal narration while others don't, but there's a hypothetical phenomenon within that phenomenon where someone has the internal narration, but doesn't recognize the narrator as their own voice, but rather as an outside presence instructing them on what to do next.
First time I heard of this my mind immediately went to the evangelicals who swear up and down that they have a personal communicative relationship with God.
Ok, but followers of Judaism and Islam do not believe in a "personal relationship" with God. In those religions only the prophets got instructions directly from God, everyone else has to read their respective holy books.
I had the narrator when I was a kid and even asked other people if they could hear the person talking, which creeped out my siblings occasionally. Fortunately grew out of that by presumably realizing that was myself talking to me.
IIRC this is the idea behind avatar therapy for folks with vivid hallucinations
"Growing out of it" by slowly taking more and more control over how the hallucinations behave until they're basically just a sensory extension of the internal monologue
Not really.
Magical thinking and rationalizing randomness are very innate features of humanity (and most animals, I.e. Skinner's box).
Overcoming this is both a noble and difficult pursuit, and it's arguably more worthwhile to recognize this than to incorrectly assume that we'd fall into rationality by default.
We wouldn't. We didn't. And that's exactly why religion exists in the first place and remains so successful.
We need to actively work hard to be better.
I agree with your sentiment. The takeaway for me is that we are influenced by our environment. Our experience is one of learning through experimenting with our reality, so it does come down to what we are presented with. I was raised around a temple that my parents were very active in, but it was reform, so I could ask lots of questions. I was told the narrative, but was allowed to interrogate it a bit and pretty much had the rabbi provide the evidence against religion by asking the right questions and getting fair responses. Others don’t get this opportunity and are instead force-fed religion and told not to question it. I still remember the moment that it clicked for me that it was all a charade. I basically asked the rabbi that, if all life is lived now per Judaism and we don’t have the concept of heaven or hell, then why do we need to do these practices and he basically said to make us feel happier. I was pretty much like ok, I’d rather go to space camp then.
Yeah, it's like the Aristotle quote saying "give me a child until he's seven and I'll show you the man." Not a lot of people have much chance to choose beliefs as opposed to have had them thrust on them.
As an aside, your rabbi's answer was essentially the outlook of the Sadducees in antiquity. They believed that there was no afterlife and that God didn't care what people did or didn't do, and yet followed the religious laws because they saw the law itself as a gift from God.
But I'm inclined to agree, that space camp sounds much better, and perhaps if the Sadducees had space camp too they'd have taken a different stance on things.
In a thousand years, I wonder if humanity will be at war with itself because they can't agree if Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter is the true prophet in their version of creation mythology.
They are both wrong. The prophet is Paul Muad'dib Atreides...Long live Muad'dib. Bi lal kaifa!
I just sorta invented my own idea of what makes sense spiritually and only bothered to share it in a setting where shit was already deep and spiritual/philosophical.
I kinda like just inventing random mythology too every so often, my favorite recent one is that whenever someone says "I love you" for the first time, a Unicorn is born, and because of that a huge chunk of unicorns are in fact born as one of a set of twins, because the first time one person says that is often followed up by the first time the person they're saying it to says it back to them.
Don't believe in any of it as a "this is how the world really works!" kinda thing, I just like telling stories that I feel like would fit in a kid's book.
This tracks closely with my own personal mythology that sheep when seen from a distance on a hillside are actually unicorns.
What happens when someone says " I hate you"?
Honey Badgers.
There is a reason unicorns don't exist my friend, do you really want to know?
Nerevar, there you are. I have just started reading this Lemmy Post about Religion. What an intoxicating and grand waste of my time. Nerevar the only People that are happy without Religion are the Argonians, and you know as well as I, Dagot Ur(the god) how miserable these creatures are.
Not a single Dunmer in all of Morrowind would try to claim that they do not believe in god.
Yes Nerevar, i would kill them but that isn't the point.
the reason i am nonreligious is because i realized it is human made concept, it has nothing to do with my likes or dislikes of the organizations
If I’m going to follow a made up belief system I’ll just make up my own that’s fun and inspiring
For me it's because everyone made a big deal of having a "personal relationship" with God, but nobody was on the other end
This is why strive to keep my relationship with God purely sexual.
I don't mind religion, it's the crazies that use their religion to push hate that are the problem.
Agreed. I even have found myself thinking over years that some people in my life would have been better off if they had found religion, though I am not myself religious.
It really depends on how you're conditioned. If you consider an aliens perspective, anyone who believes in something so important without good enough evidence are crazy, whether they act like it or not.
based
most are just pedophile rings anyway.
Will not have anything to do with these hate groups.
is this the part where twenty somethings on the internet gather to exclaim loudly "I hate hypocrites too"?
then you should love jesus, because he hated religious hypocrites just as much as you do. In fact, it was those hypocrites who killed him.
If jesus returned today, he would be killed at a MAGA rally, probably.
i'm a christian in SPITE of the church, not because of it.
Your not gonna get a lot of love, but I hear you. Jesus is the enemy of modern Christianity.
this isn't about you
I'm not Christian but there are some good bits in the Christian Bible I'd be happy if more people followed. "pray in the closet" , the good Samaritan, and the sheep and the goats mostly.
Unfortunately a lot of people use religion as an excuse to be a huge asshole.
Religion is fine, it's religious people using it to abuse others that I really don't care for.
One of my favorite quotes from Farscape. (For reference, this is a human teenager interviewing a three eyed old lady alien that's part mystic and part crazy old lady.)
Bobby: Do religions hate each other where you come from?
Noranti: Oh, good heavens, no. Religions are grand, lofty ideas. Religious followers, now that's another story.
Bobby: Wars.
Noranti: Unspeakable.
Bobby: So we're not so different.
Noranti: That's nothing to be proud of.
Distinction without a difference imo.
Religion is not fine. It is holding our entire species back.
Religion is basically just “your own hypothesis on how the world works”. People in good faith would encourage progress to see if their hypothesis is correct, not hinder it for fear of being proven wrong.
So how does coathanger abortions and murdering homosexuals factor in?
Because people took the concept of religion and used it as justification for literally everything.
Hell, religion is supposed to be what you think, the whole concept of reading a millennia-old book about unverifiable facts and going “yup, that must be all true” is extremely weird.
The time for organized religion to clean house and save themselves from being taken over by fascist child rapists is long past. Sucks to suck. Would be a silver lining in a sea of shit if I saw religion at least in America wither away and die in my lifetime.
I don't think people are interested in going to a place every Sunday and hearing about how they're going to hell.
I don't like organized anything. People who organize bully and financially dominate those who aren't.
Organised labour is an exception for me
raised in a southern baptist leaning midwestern area. grew to resent being lied to. recall one pastor who got caught cheating on wife. last straw when I found a big-wheel in mom&dad's closet a month before xmas. more lies
we are no different than the bug that just splattered on the windshield. one second your brain is screaming "pull up!". The next next second, _________
I was raised in church, and I would still call myself a 'spiritual' person. But church itself... it's just not it
I'm in Dollywood in Tennessee and almost everybody is wearing T necklaces and/or faith shirts.. it's kinda weird (I'm from d.c. area). I expected to see more red hats but have not seen a single one.
Reject nonreligious communities, join the religious non-communities. Choose your flavour between anarcho-catholics, Sikhs of the woods, or feral Zoroastrians