I think the real upsetting thing isn't Biden's performance, or having Biden as president for four more years. He achieved quite a bit after all. The real upsetting thing is the DNC being such cunts that they even pushed for this debate, hoping that Biden could win, only to deny and ignore Biden's abhorrent performance immediately after. That Bernie got shafted twice by them, that is the really upsetting part.
It seems pretty obvious to me at this point that the DNC would rather lose than have an actual progressive win. None of the shitty things that Trump wants to do will hurt them, (stupid take if they cared at all about their descendants but they’re either too arrogant or too ignorant to worry about that) but actual progressive policies that helped average people WOULD hurt their way of life. Marginally. Like, the tiniest little amount. Like, your yacht can only have one master bedroom instead of four. But why give that up when you don’t have to?
“It’s a big club, and you ain’t in it”
I’m voting for Biden though, and I’ll keep voting as progressively as possible in the down ballot elections. If a progressive movement from the bottom up can start by doing things like getting rid of FPTP, we still have a chance. And to anyone thinking about not voting, please do. The president is one person. They are the single most powerful person individually, (taking aside impact on the judicial system) but the collective impact on your day to day life is far more influenced by down ballot positions. Research your down ballot candidates and vote. Many of those races are decided by only a handful of votes. Yours matters.
DNC would rather lose than have an actual progressive win
This was made perfectly clear in 2016 when Hillary stole the nom by colluding with Debbie Wasserman-Schultz.
If people haven’t caught on by now, they haven’t been paying attention. Or are just willfully ignorant.
It seems pretty obvious to me at this point that the DNC would rather lose than have an actual progressive win.
It's not in their interests to let a progressive win. Just like their counterpart, the DNC takes a shit ton of bribery donations from corporations lobbyists. Bringing in a progressive who would reform the system or push back against pro-corporate policies is biting the hands that feed them.
And I'd vote for a corpse before I vote for 34 time Convicted Felon Donald Trump. Eat the rich. Pack the courts. Seize the assets of felonious companies.
Mother fucker could be Dracula for all I care. Still voting for him.
You sound like a rational tankie, which by the definitions that lemmies have explained to me, would make you not a tankie.
"Anyone who thinks themselves a tankie is too self aware to be one" sounds like one of those fallacies you'd learn about in highschool. (What is a tankie, btw? I've been too scared to ask...)*
A tankie is, broadly, someone who wants to effect left-wing ideology using authoritarian methods. It originally referred to those who defended the USSR using tanks to suppress the Hungarian Revolution, but it could be aptly used to describe those who defend China's actions in Tiananmen Square. It's rightfully used as a perjorative, since authoritarian enforcement is antithetical to leftism, particularly communism.
Tankies are hypocrites who didn't understand their self-proclaimed ideologies. If someone's idea of communist praxis is lining up dissenters for the firing squad, you're dealing with a tankie.
I'm a tankie. What tankie is supposed to mean is someone who blindly supports anything anyone does so long as they claim to be communist and wave a red flag. There's maybe a handful of edgy teens who actually fit that description, but the way it's actually used is to punch left at anyone who supports anything a socialist country has ever done, or who is insufficiently patriotic/nationalistic and is willing to consider things from an internationalist perspective.
If you say for example that Cuba under Castro had a successful literacy program, then there are people who will accuse you of being a tankie just for that. Because it gets used this way, some people like myself chose to reclaim the insult and wear it proudly.
Generally, the actual term for most "tankies" would be Marxist-Leninist. But I actually prefer tankie because it's a more general, big tent label. It's used so broadly that even anarchists can be called tankies. It's basically like "woke" where it doesn't actually have any real meaning.
Well I think there are probably a half dozen interpretations that people on Lemmy use. One I have heard repeated is that they view the Tiananmen Square event as something that China rightfully did... hence "Tankie"
The idea that that's the origin of the term is a common misconception. The actual origin was about the USSR under Kruschev sending in the military in response to a rebellion in Hungary. Some British communists supported the move, while other communists opposed it and labeled the supporters as tankies.
But regardless of the origin, it's changed to where now it's liberals using it to criticize socialists in general.
If you say for example that Cuba under Castro had a successful literacy program, then there are people who will accuse you of being a tankie just for that.
$COUNTRY had a successful literacy program under $LEFT_GOVERMENT.
You get it! We can't fuck over vulnerable people. We can't abandon minorities and LGBT people. Even if we let things get worse to the point of a societal collapse, a lot of people will die because of it -- and societal collapse has not historically led to better societies down the road.
That's such an important point. Anyone who thinks a win by Trump will somehow speed up the advent of socialism is just deluded.
People think Trump will eventually make things so bad that the average man will salivate at the chance for Socialist rule...
What will actually happen if you get a nasty concoction made from a pinch of Handmaid's Tale with a dash of Holocaust 2....
And the average man won't care, as long as the trains run on time and they owned the libs... and if the trains don't run on time, they probably have libs to blame.
trains run on time
I am here to regretfully inform you about the state of american rail infrastructure...
My trans friends are what keeps me committed to voting Biden no matter how disappointed I am in him. Things are already really scary for them right now and I can't be complicit in making them worse, even through inaction.
Consider me another one of your trans friends. If Trump gets elected I'm probably gonna die in a concentration camp. Don't do that to me, don't do that to them. I'm begging you for my life.
As a transwoman as well, I second this!
Don't let the fascist win!
I'd suggest taking a flight overseas the day after the elections, booked prior to it. If Trump losses, you can use it to celebrate it. If he wins... well, you can ask for asylum on arrival.
Right? Imagine it's a fucking Saw Trap, and there's an easy way out without sacrificing anyone... and an equally easy way out sacrificing everyone. Make the less sociopathic choice.
I can’t even imagine how awful the people who fill that vacuum would be.
On one hand I'd like it if the Democrats put up someone more certain to beat Trump. On the other Joe has shown he supports labor and things are moving in the right direction in that regard. I'd hate it if he we get a corpo Democrat that halts this progress.
I'd vote for ToS era Pike over Trump. I'd vote for a candidate who only communicates via ouija board over Trump. I'd vote to not have a president for 4 years before I'd vote for Trump.
It's crazy that Trump can get convicted of fraud, be found liable for sexual assault, promise to abuse presidential power to get revenge against those who cross him, actively undermine both national and global security, promise to round up millions and put them into camps, attempt to overthrow the election and refuse to not try it again, and so on, and his side is still so loyal they'll wear solidarity diapers for him.
He is like a cult's leader, they can do no wrong. People's belief in him is unflappable.
I'd vote for a candidate who only communicates via ouija board over Trump.
Give it a few months
Maybe they can settle for one of those wheelchair computers that tracks your eyes looking at the letters.
I'd vote to not have a president for 4 years before I'd vote for Trump.
And now I'm curious how many things depend on having a president at all, and what his role is, by design, in the US and other countries.
Cabinet and federal appointments are the big thing. That's why I'll take Biden over Trump. I'm not just voting for him, I'm voting for the 4000 jobs in energy, health, labor, transportation, etc. to be run by Democrats, liberals, and qualified people.
Trump, and project 2025 plan to fill all those roles with right wing nutjobs who will do anything to please the right. On top of those 4000, they'd expand the presidential appointment power to fire up to 45% of the federal workforce. Meteorologist who said the hurricane won't hit Alabama? GONE! Doctor who said injecting bleach was a bad idea? FIRED!
I'll take anyone who won't put Project 2025 in motion.
Didn't we have a ouija board as a president back when Nancy's psychic was running the show?
No, you fools, the divine spirits of the stars are different than ghosts!
I’m voting Brandon but let’s not pretend he didn’t shit the bed. It was fucking awful. Brandon should fuck off, but I’d vote for a corpse over any republican, and that will probably be true for the rest of my life.
It's funny how the standard by which we judge Biden is so high, and the standard for Trump is so low. Like... "oh wow, orange man form complete sentence, he's really killin it" vs "omg Biden stumbled over his words and had one bad night, his candidacy is over".
Biden had more than “a bad night” the dude looks like he’s aging out of the ability to stay awake for 90 minutes at a time.
Fuck trump and the GOP for the rest of time but Joe looks like shit dude, and he has for a while. Don’t fucking gaslight me.
There’s so much Democratic gaslighting going on now it’s ridiculous. They need to stop fucking around, put the hammer down and just run Newsom. What do the egotists like RBG and Biden think their legacy is going to be? Step out gracefully and let someone else take the reins jfc. Otherwise the legacy you leave is that you have fucked us all.
That's fine. He surrounds himself with capable people (The other guy's are all heading to prison and were always the most incompetent for their positions). His party is just as corpo as the other, but they will not enact Project 2025 and still have a chance at change for the better (the other party does not). One party might maintain the crappy status quo, the other will absolutely entrench and yank the country further in the wrong direction irreversibly against the will of the majority.
The issue here is that Biden has to compete for the morons in the middle who somehow can’t decide between an obvious traitor and a mediocre democrat. So he simply must perform better. The standard is truly higher for him because it takes a lot to sway the mentally defective undecideds.
There's not really any swing voters who are undecided. There is a massive group that is voting for Trump, and a lot of people who would rather stay home on election day. And all year it has been "Biden needs to win" but now even the DNC is horrified that he is totally unappealing. He belongs in a hospice unit, not the White House. Biden has been like this since the 2020 primaries, just now everyone has to see how old Biden really is.
That is not all where the discussion is right now. The discussion is whether Biden is the best person we have. We still can put someone else forth and now it's the time to do it.
Technically I'm voting for Biden, in reality I'm voting against Trump. I really wish I had a better option...
Outside of voting, you have options. I'm not American, but I'd advise any communists to vote Biden simply because the repression under Trump could get really ugly, hindering any proper organisation. Just view it as what I think it also actually is: A cynical, pragmatic move to save you and other working people from more open repression, nothing more.
But before and after voting: Put your energy into unions like the IWW, into neighbourhood organisations for mutual aid, into community defense like the SRA or Redneck Revolt, into antifascist organisation, into refining your own position and presenting it to others. Create networks and connections. All preventing Trump is doing is buying time for now to do exactly that. Things will only get worse in the decades ahead, with no end in sight for the climate catastrophe and further decay of capitalism - and laying the groundwork of actually being able to do something is critically important right now, in my opinion.
Of course everyone is in the end their own master when it comes to decisions like this. Just - remember that by not voting in this specific election you also aren't changing anything. And while I fully understand the desire to organise for a third party, they have been marginalised effectively, at least I personally don't think electoral politics will bring any relevant changes, one way or the other. They are just about who carries the whip used against you, and in this case if the are openly and harshly, or covertly and less efficiently using it.
That all being said - I think a few people here overestimate the amount of tankies and communists that won't vote Biden. The group is marginal in the big scheme of things. If Biden loses, you can be certain, they were not responsible, they are most likely less than 1% of voters. Personally, I'd blame the corporate core of the Democratic party and middle class liberals for being out of touch with reality.
If Biden loses, you can be certain, they were not responsible, they are most likely less than 1% of voters
Nah, they'll blame us the same way they blame us for losing the 2016 general election. We are simultaneously too small to matter but able to turn the tide of the largest election in the United States.
Don't we all? .. I think very few people would choose Biden absent it being necessary to avoid the hellscape guaranteed by not voting for him
I’m voting party for socialism and liberation and you can too. They’re running Claudia de la Cruz on a platform of Palestinian statehood and an end to arms shipments to Israel.
For me there’s no better time to start building a new American political formation. If the democrats wise up and snap left when they see the third party/lack of turnout then that’s fine too.
The left got so close to taking the DNC in 2016 they had to go to court to affirm their right to tell the left to eat a dick regardless of voters or donations, and now they're pushing legislation to strip the red tape from taking away nonprofit status from leftist orgs. Dems are running scared and it has their faschie flag flying high (see op disinformation campaign claiming anyone who dislikes biden is a 'tankie')
Of course, even though they've spent more time attacking the left than they EVER have Republicans they'll be happy to place the singular blame on us then march further right so they can shocked pikachu when the left doesn't vote for them then either.
This vote is far too important to protest vote. Especially now that I live in a swing state.
So, take this point of view as what it is: a view on the situation from an outsider, I am not American, I am a German communist. While I do probably look more closely at American politics than most likely the average American simply from being interested in politics to a pathological degree, I might not have the full picture of an American who is also as interested in politics.
I think in this particular moment, as much as the Democrats do their best to antagonise you, as much as you are correct that someone like Biden will continue with the same status quo bullshit that created the situation to begin with, as much as he won't be helping the people suffering from (neo)-colonialism in a meaningful way overseas - I don't think that this particular election is the time to vote third party. The chance may come, and best then to do it not as individuals based on your personal conscience, but as an organised group, with concrete messaging communicated. And even in other elections and outside this vote, organising for a third party - while I personally don't have a lot of hope for electoral politics - is certainly better than investing energy into the Democratic party, whose supporters seem to have no problems spewing hatred towards you for not agreeing with their party line and view of reality.
But I think underestimating Trump could be genuinely dangerous. Not because he will "ruin America" or anything like that. Simply, because he will be in a position to dial up repression, potentially leaving you with a situation in 2-4 years, where the party you voted for has to move underground, either having gotten outlawed or further marginalised and infiltrated. The situation looks critical enough to me, that under a Trump presidency, unions and leftist orgs will face open persecution much more than under someone like Biden - who is admittedly bad enough. Persecution up to outright criminalising them, to encouraging right-wing militias to kill their members with a slap on the wrist as a consequence or no legal repercussions at all. Yes, I do think that is unfortinately a realisitic possibility. And at this point, I don't think leftist orgs in the US have the resilience yet to efficiently organise in the underground.
That being said, I won't tell you a vitriolic "you will be at fault" if you choose to vote and organise as you want to. I do also see advantages, like getting visibility for your issues and potentially by reaching certain threshholds getting public funding support and the likes (that exists in the US too, right?). But I'd still advise it in this election - as shitty and cynical as it is - to vote for the old fart that doesn't swing the whip of the state as hard on your back as the one that might outright strangle you with it. Getting a proper communist, grassroots organisation running in the United States is important for the whole world, and I fear it will be impossible, or at least much, much harder under Trump (mostly, again, because there are no proper structures in place to move into illegality and organising underground, from everything I can tell.)
Just because you are still voting Biden, doesn't mean you don't care.
It just means you still don't want the raving malignant narcissist Trump.
Any somewhat normal person would be the obvious choice over Trump. Any person who is not clearly a traitor to USA and Democracy would be preferable to Trump.
I don't know about the "traitor" thing. Edward Snowden would definitely make a better president than Trump.
Snowden verifiably paid a higher price while serving the interests of the people. Sacrificed far more than Trump ever has or will. He was a fairly connected govt contractor living in Hawaii, living a good life before he had to flee.
Yeah some treason is cool
Like, yes, Trump is a traitor, but the real problem is he did it for the wrong treasons, making him trash.
What I've seen so many people not understand with the situation we are in right now, is that we can't fix our current situation in one election. Everything is far to tucked up for that, so the best that can be done is vote for the least fucked up option and work to improve things. People refusing to participate or vote for the candidate who is unfortunately our best option currently (biden) are doing more damage than the people voting for the fascist party. The perfect candidate/option does not exist and never will (obviously not saying everything biden has done has been good).
Forget a perfect candidate. Just go back and watch the 2012 debate and both Obama and Mitt Romney were infinitely better than Joe Biden or Trump.
But they never told me which of them was the better golfer.
God it feels stupid to write that and it being an actual argument during a presidential debate.
People do understand that concept, but it's literally what Democrats have been doing for the past 40 years and it has put us right here where we are right now. The "lesser of two evils" thing just has no propellant left, no one is buying that line anymore. Neoliberalism needs to go before Democrats can start winning again.
You need to understand that people have been saying "just put the neolibs in power again and we'll work to improve things" every election cycle, and now we are closer to fascism than we've literally ever been. You at least understand why people see that strategy as a failure, right? Like, you understand why no one believes it anymore?
I mean all the concerned people could take to the streets right now.
The DNC wants you to believe that all you can do is cast your vote for something every other year and just take the options presented. In that sense they are worse than the Reps who encourage their base to be active for more than just the ballots and it is working.
Especially now the Dems give me huge 1984 vibes in how the individual should handle politics relative to the party.
so the best that can be done is vote for the least fucked up option and work to improve things.
Democrats were good at the first part, but not the second. I remember lots of Dems saying "Vote for Biden, and then we'll hold his feet to the fire!" Well, there was no "holding his feet to the fire", because that's seen as enabling Trump.
The perfect candidate/option does not exist and never will
Yes, but there are candidates who are better, such as Jill Stein and Cornel West. You can't vote for a perfect candidate, but you can vote for the best candidate.
You might as well vote for Barney the dinosaur for all the good it will do.
A vote for a candidate who cannot win is wasted.
No candidate can win, unless you vote for them. That's the entire point of voting.
What exactly makes a geriatric 81 year old the most fit person for the job?
There is plenty of time to get a new candidate.
Not having enough time and voting for the least fucked candidate is old and tired. How long do we vote for the Turd over the Douche instead of voting for someone that we actually believe in?
Also, I can't justify genocide.
are doing more damage than the people voting for the fascist party.
Hooooooly fuck this gets 27 upvotes? There it is folks. Leftists are doing more damage by refusing to vote than the people who stormed the capitol. This hot take brought to you by lemmy.
1000 people stormed the capitol. Allowing trump to win is far far far worse. Federal judge appointments alone are worth far more.
Yes, Hillary and the DNC allowed Trump to win by ignoring their base and chasing imaginary "swing" voters. And now they're doing it again.
The Republican party wouldn't exist if everybody voted. That is a straight up fact. As fucked as our election system is, they are far enough the minority that if everyone got out, the EC wouldn't matter.
You want a "left light" and a "true left", you aren't going to get it by abstaining, or by voting for nonviable moonshot third-party candidates. You are going to get it by abolishing the far right party and making that tiny sliver of the whole population realize that their antiquated views aren't welcome here.
They need to be crushed.
They only exist because people don't want to vote for the lesser of two evils, so instead they just don't vote. And what do you know, a -1 for the less evil is just as effective as a +1 for the more evil.
All of their success is brought on by feeding apathy in their opposition, making it more difficult to vote, destroying any faith in the system, and gerrymandering.
So yes, in my opinion, the far left refusing to hold their nose for a few minutes may as well be voting for the insurrectionist.
So this happened under Obama. People voted blue no matter who, gave Dems a super majority and they used it to pass a GOP-crafted bill that forced people to pay for useless private insurance.
The party itself needs to change and the types of candidates that the establishment supports needs to change. That doesn't happen when they can do their pied piper thing and keep winning. And no "just one last hit" won't let them overcome the addiction to corporate conservativism.
In a two party system the only way to "crush" the extreme right is by establishing another party to take the spot in the two party system. And you know what will happen then? The Dems will move from being the far right party with gay rights to being the extreme right party. Because they already are far right by any sensible measure.
The best thing that Biden ever did was just to not be Trump.
Why are these memes so weirdly die-hard in the support of a man that is visibly unfit for the 4 years of presidency?
No one is actually excited about old Joe. It's just that he's simply not Trump.
It would be best if he steps down so that we can get a person in office that actually excites people for more than just not being the other guy.
Why don't they seal the deal with anyone younger ? Surely there's one better young person in the USA ?
The US political system has some issues. That's why. Ask the DNC.
The DNC replied that you are just a secret Trump fan. The party knows what is best and you should not expect primaries and having a say. Also we have always been at war with East-Asia.
Surely there’s one better young person in the USA ?
None of them ran. Biden's admin and his fund raising base held enormous sway over the party at-large. As soon as he corralled the support of this tiny monied elite, everyone else had to either get in line or get marked as party pariahs and ousted for their disloyalty.
The pastiche of democracy is predicated on a primary system that can produce and sustain rival candidates. But when leadership in the party are terrified of "Russian bots" and "Leftist Antifa Agitators" undermining the general election, they circle the wagons around their incumbents and bow down to their mega-donors out of cowardice.
No rival candidates means no real primary means no one actually challenges Biden on his merits.
The primary system is obviously corrupted. The incumbent managed to shut out everyone else. This happened on both sides of this inept stupid system. Two candidates who it is painfully obvious are unfit for the job. Geriatrics clogging up the political machine stopping even retirees from having a go.
The youth backlash will eventually upend everything, since not only they are denied a voice, but they will also be made the servants of the boomers for much of the next 20 years.
I'm sure that herding behind a senile will give the Democratic Party the incentive to reconsider their corporate-oriented outlook /s
Really, if the Dems brought in someone who was like... 50 (and probably not Newsom owing to prolonged hateboner for Cali) they'd gain 10 points in the polls immediately. Whether true or not, the narrative that Biden is old and doddering is there and that debate performance did nothing to dissuade it.
Yeah, some ppl don't get that you don't have to like Biden, to vote against trump. 🤷♂️
You mean you don't have to like Kamala? I'm voting Kamala.
Not fond of her, but she'll do better than Trump by leagues and miles and make history while not rocking the boat or affecting any meaningful change. Libs will love her, she'll be a democrat party darling. I bet she gets a second term.
I'm voting for the man with one foot in the coffin that is not trump, but it doesn't matter because I don't live in a swing state.
Yeah, I feel like people are freaking out and ignoring that Biden (and Trump) are largely the people they surround themselves with, and the policies they push.
They've both been president for years.
The boyfriend last night was surprised I didn't watch the debate.
"They've both been president. I was paying attention. I know what their presidencies will be like. Why listen to them talk about it?"
That, and we both know how terribly uninformative debates are. I got similar criticism for skipping it but like, we know their policies.
I was talking to some friends and I don't get independents at this point. If you don't know who you're voting for and need to see this debate to decide, you haven't been paying attention to the past 8 years.
That's a very good point. The president is in charge of appointing a lot of other people that are more important for making decisions.
This isnt a dig at him but Biden probably hasnt made a single decision without heavy guidance by all the people around him. This is always the case to a degree i assume, but probably even more with senile people like him. It just makes the whole concept of a president so nonsensical.
This is what Germany in 1929 was - without social media.
I'm in Europe and things aren't really better here... Putin on the east, LePen and Meloni on the west...
I live in Canada, 15 km from the US border. When shit kicks off down there millions of them could come north expecting that Canada will welcome them with open arms. We will be unable to feed or house them. Many will die of exposure in the first winter. They should go south and hope that Mexico will take them in.
As someone living around the Timmins area, we've imported some hot climate individuals and still have room, send them up! The Northlander should be running by then /fingers crossed/
OP blames the 5 tankies actually living in the USA for voting 3rd party
I was planning to blame Russian Internet robots
Or you could except that the D party sometimes runs shit tir candidates.
They should have been preparing a replacement for Biden since he was sworn into office.
Now.... Who really knows. There's so much at stake for more than the presidency. If the choices are between a 78 year old felon under multiple indictments who is only out for himself, and an 81 year old who wants to better the country but is, well, 81... I'll take the 81 year old
Tankies? CNN, MSNBC, and NYTimes are all concerned.
WAPO too.
Clearly this is a far-right conspiracy and they have all taken over the media.
/s
Legendary Tankies, the entire group... /s
Íf he wore a clown suit and only spoke Pig-Latin during the debate.... considering the alternative
He would STILL be the only viable candidate worth voting for
In their moral justification, the argument of the lesser evil has played a prominent role. If you are confronted with two evils, the argument runs, it is your duty to opt for the lesser one, whereas it is irresponsible to refuse to choose altogether. Its weakness has always been that those who choose the lesser evil forget quickly that they chose evil.
-Hannah Arendt, German-American philosopher and political theorist, in fuckin 1964 lmao. some things never change!
I've been called many names, including "tankie", so I'll take a stab at responding.
I'm not mad about the debate at all. I expected something fairly similar.
I'm mad that Biden and the Democratic leadership seems to have put their own interests above the interest of the party people (edit: Ugh. Terrible typo).
If Biden had gracefully stepped aside and given just about any other Democrat his full support, we'd be in a much better position now. Instead we have a candidate with a ton of baggage and who presents an easy target for Trump's style of argument.
Many mainstream Democrats, including the NYT, are finally starting to realize this. Unfortunately it's probably a year too late. At this point it would just make it look like Demoratic kingmakers forced him out.
If I went by the modern definition of "tankie" as, an anti-american authoritarian communist. I probably wouldn't be mad at any of this. I'd be cackling with glee because either of the current nominees will be terrible for the US. Neither of them has a serious long term plan. Neither of them can articulate a policy position. Both of them will continue to erode the power and moral authority of the United States.
Like it or not. Trump is likely to be the next president https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/.
At this point it's probably wise to start thinking about how to limit his impact and how to start cleaning up the mess afterwards.
I'm mad that Biden and the Democratic leadership seems to have put their own interests above the interest of the party people.
The interests of the party is the interests of the rich :)
Considering that Biden's main competitor is an actual neonazi and the USA have an undemocratic election system that disadvantages all but two parties, there's pretty much no choice but the senile grandpa who's not a neonazi.
yeah like people keep saying that there is need for someone better than biden, but at the moment he's the only option thst is valid. it's about damage control not about making everything utopia.
they complain that biden is not good enough, while completely ignoring that trump is literal neonazi. how in the fuck it is even question wheter you should vote for trump or biden because the fact is that either of them is going to the office. not some third candinate who would be actually good
As far as I can tell, his administration isn't so bad overall (granted, compared to children in cages this is a low bar to cross). It's not like he does every single job personally.
Still voting Biden, but this feels an awful lot like many past elections where people are holding their nose and voting for a candidate they don’t necessarily like just because they really don’t like the other candidate: Bush v Gore, Bush v Kerry, Clinton v Trump. Those elections never seem to turn out good.
That's exactly what this is.
Give me a viable other option, please! Biden is soggy, cold oatmeal from 4 days ago that's probably still fine. Trump is medical waste mixed with gasoline and uranium powder.
I see the coping, Biden is cooked and the election is Lost.
Liberals are self-infecting a loss, and are blindingly running into a wall, the smack will be heard from outer space.
I think what will DEFINITELY help is all the immature passive aggression, like this post, that manifests when anyone dares to suggest they might have an issue they need to fix.
/s, in case that wasn't clear
Yeah.. sure. Not a tankie, I'm European and don't care about influencing you to vote for one or another. But after seeing Biden "debate" Trump I know the dems are fucked. I mean sure, still go out and vote, but I honestly don't see many people doing so.
Absolutely go vote. Tell everyone you know to vote. Don't vote for Trump. But for the love of god, if you're otherwise not going to vote, at least vote third party.
They're...from Europe.
I'm referring to other readers
Vote down-ticket. Especially for state level Secretary of State and Attorney General candidates. That's how we're going to get ranked choice voting in more states
It's honestly extremely sad that the primary requirement to be a leader is "ability to speak perfectly on stage for 2 hours."
It should be a basic requirement of literally any public office. That fact that we have got this far baffles me utterly.
Yeah it's not great, but like... coming across as coherent is important no matter the position. Biden kinda failed that basic competency test, probably just due to his age and not like, stupidity or a personal failing of any kind. I'm still voting for Biden, but yeah it's not exactly an enthusiastic vote.
At this point I doubt tankies should be much of a concern. What are they, 1-2% of the potential Dem voter base? I'd sooner worry about the indecisive ones who have seen the performances in the debate.
They're just very loud on this site.
They’re loud on every site. Their goal is to normalize disenfranchisement. They’re either knowingly or unknowingly doing the job for Republicans.
They're especially loud here because Lemmy's developers are tankies. Some are even supposedly former Chapo Trap House peeps that got kicked off reddit. It's the most annoying part of this place trying to be a reddit replacement. But it's getting better with users calling them out.
Exactly. More specifically, I'm not afraid of how people vote, I'm afraid of people choosing not to.
What are they, 1-2% of the potential Dem voter base?
Add a .000 in front of those numbers and you might be right. If those numbers were accurate you would expect somewhere between, what...1 and 2 million tankies in the US alone?
No one minds you voting for Biden believe it or not. We do mind being demonized and straw-personed for not voting for him.
Do you understand why you are being demonized though? You're making a choice that is purely symbolic just so you feel better, but real and vulnerable people across the country have to deal with the fallout.
You want to make a difference? Great! There's a lot of ways to do that. Campaign and fundraise at the local and state level. Push for election reform, ranked choice voting, end to gerrymandering, term limits, electoral college reform, curtail lobbying... any number of things, and push for them more often than once every four years. Voting third party in a presidential election does NOT help.
If you want my respect, acknowledge the reality of the situation and vote for the best option (or the least bad option) among the viable candidates and then work for change within the system. It sucks that we are in this situation, but make a choice grounded in the real world, not a fake ideal world.
I'll vote for biden unless he drops out and a more progressive candidate presents itself, in which case I won't vote biden.
I'm normally critical of Biden but this is one of the few times I'll say it. Biden staying in the race is the best thing he can do.
It doesn't matter when he drops out at this point, the time to do that was 8 months ago. If he drops out now and there's an open convention, democrats lose in November. If he drops out after the convention, and the DNC chooses a different candidate to replace him, Democrats lose in November.
The last time anything similar happened, there were riots outside the DNC in Chicago and Hubert Humphrey safely handed the office to Richard Nixon.
Fun fact, Hilary Clinton attended the protests.
Look on the bright side: a vote for Biden is really just a vote for Kamala Harris with extra steps.
Harris is a joke and a cop that made her name on being super hard on small criminal offenses.
She ain't it. I mean, have you heard the weird things that she says while she's speaking?
She's a terrible candidate. A somehow even worse Hillary.
Hillary is such a smug fuck I really don't know what Harris would have to do to make me hate her more.
I mean she habitually lies like Hillary. She is basically an enabler for a fascist police state (extreme militarization and attacking peaceful protesters). Obvious warmonger as well (current admin has that whole genocide enabling thing happening now)
Her khive cult harasses/ed people and tries/ed to get them to commit suicide/ruin their lives. It's been a thing for years. Fun fact is there are Hillary fans that do the same thing. They've not been held accountable for any of these things, and are basically a domestic terror group online. I mean there are plenty of right-wing nuts that do the same, but they get held accountable sometimes.
She aggressively enforced Marijuana convictions that had a pre-dominant predisposition against her own community.
Good to know Democrats aren't interested in winning the left vote anymore
using a pepe to post this is letting the mask slip a bit there bud.
The original image even says "don't care, still voting trump" this is just an edit changing it to biden. Both democrats and republicans can agree on punching to the left. Of course, democrats have to use dog whistles like calling them all "tankies" just like how republicans love to discriminate against minorities while making references to them as "inner city youths" or whatever.
I wonder how many of the dyed-in-the-wool DNC supporters would stay home or vote third party if Biden wasn't the candidate chosen at the convention.
This is the thing. People like to blame Berniebros and whatnot for Clinton's loss in '16, but the reality is that the centrist Democrats that vote for the party's corporate-backed candidate wouldn't vote for a progressive one, so even if Bernie had won the nomination, he probably still would have lost because he would have lost the support of these DNC hardliners. I heard people literally say in '16 that if Bernie had somehow won the nomination over Hillary that they would have just stayed home. It's wild to think how ideologically balkanized the Democratic party is, with so many people fervently belonging to the leftist minority that holds their nose every election to vote for another mediocre person whose best attributes are being "not an outright fascist" versus the people who will never vote for a truly left wing candidate because they're fiscally conservative but socially liberal and just allergic to compromising in the same way that they've forced the leftists in their party to do since forever.
What is sad is the American people DID vote for progressive policy. The problem is American politicians represent their donors, and turned their backs on their constituents.
There is no expectation for an elected Democrat to align with their party platform. Likewise no one can or should expect a Republican to break from their party. Any reliance on either is a fool's errand.
I mean about 70% of Americans support at least a public option for health insurance. Yet there is no pathway forward for 70% of Americans with either party.
So it sucks that such an intransigent faction isn't even representative.
You address this to tankies. I see very few of them around here these days.
Cringe karma post.
They're trying to conflate anyone who isn't in full support of Biden as a tankie. It's more of the same from the last year that's been used to shut down any debate or criticism.
Giving Hexbear aura. Could be shittier though, too much corn 🌽
I will never vote Democrats!
Since I do not intend to move to the US but I vote the lesser of several evils here in Europe
I think the real upsetting thing isn't Biden's performance, or having Biden as president for four more years. He achieved quite a bit after all. The real upsetting thing is the DNC being such cunts that they even pushed for this debate, hoping that Biden could win, only to deny and ignore Biden's abhorrent performance immediately after. That Bernie got shafted twice by them, that is the really upsetting part.
It seems pretty obvious to me at this point that the DNC would rather lose than have an actual progressive win. None of the shitty things that Trump wants to do will hurt them, (stupid take if they cared at all about their descendants but they’re either too arrogant or too ignorant to worry about that) but actual progressive policies that helped average people WOULD hurt their way of life. Marginally. Like, the tiniest little amount. Like, your yacht can only have one master bedroom instead of four. But why give that up when you don’t have to?
“It’s a big club, and you ain’t in it”
I’m voting for Biden though, and I’ll keep voting as progressively as possible in the down ballot elections. If a progressive movement from the bottom up can start by doing things like getting rid of FPTP, we still have a chance. And to anyone thinking about not voting, please do. The president is one person. They are the single most powerful person individually, (taking aside impact on the judicial system) but the collective impact on your day to day life is far more influenced by down ballot positions. Research your down ballot candidates and vote. Many of those races are decided by only a handful of votes. Yours matters.
This was made perfectly clear in 2016 when Hillary stole the nom by colluding with Debbie Wasserman-Schultz.
If people haven’t caught on by now, they haven’t been paying attention. Or are just willfully ignorant.
It's not in their interests to let a progressive win. Just like their counterpart, the DNC takes a shit ton of
briberydonations fromcorporationslobbyists. Bringing in a progressive who would reform the system or push back against pro-corporate policies is biting the hands that feed them.They could be rotten from the inside as well, knowing full well how it would go
I wouldn’t be surprised
I am a tankie and voting for Biden lmao. The Prolitariat must be protected till enough class conciousness is achieved for Socialism to succeed.
THANK YOU. It's that fkin simple.
So simple, yet so hard for so many to understand.
And I'd vote for a corpse before I vote for 34 time Convicted Felon Donald Trump. Eat the rich. Pack the courts. Seize the assets of felonious companies.
Mother fucker could be Dracula for all I care. Still voting for him.
Dracula is cool as fuck tho.
https://youtu.be/1Onr4z2fdDM - Dracula's pretty based, ngl.
There is russian meme "voting for stool just to vote against UR".
You sound like a rational tankie, which by the definitions that lemmies have explained to me, would make you not a tankie.
"Anyone who thinks themselves a tankie is too self aware to be one" sounds like one of those fallacies you'd learn about in highschool. (What is a tankie, btw? I've been too scared to ask...)*
A tankie is, broadly, someone who wants to effect left-wing ideology using authoritarian methods. It originally referred to those who defended the USSR using tanks to suppress the Hungarian Revolution, but it could be aptly used to describe those who defend China's actions in Tiananmen Square. It's rightfully used as a perjorative, since authoritarian enforcement is antithetical to leftism, particularly communism.
Tankies are hypocrites who didn't understand their self-proclaimed ideologies. If someone's idea of communist praxis is lining up dissenters for the firing squad, you're dealing with a tankie.
I'm a tankie. What tankie is supposed to mean is someone who blindly supports anything anyone does so long as they claim to be communist and wave a red flag. There's maybe a handful of edgy teens who actually fit that description, but the way it's actually used is to punch left at anyone who supports anything a socialist country has ever done, or who is insufficiently patriotic/nationalistic and is willing to consider things from an internationalist perspective.
If you say for example that Cuba under Castro had a successful literacy program, then there are people who will accuse you of being a tankie just for that. Because it gets used this way, some people like myself chose to reclaim the insult and wear it proudly.
Generally, the actual term for most "tankies" would be Marxist-Leninist. But I actually prefer tankie because it's a more general, big tent label. It's used so broadly that even anarchists can be called tankies. It's basically like "woke" where it doesn't actually have any real meaning.
Well I think there are probably a half dozen interpretations that people on Lemmy use. One I have heard repeated is that they view the Tiananmen Square event as something that China rightfully did... hence "Tankie"
The idea that that's the origin of the term is a common misconception. The actual origin was about the USSR under Kruschev sending in the military in response to a rebellion in Hungary. Some British communists supported the move, while other communists opposed it and labeled the supporters as tankies.
But regardless of the origin, it's changed to where now it's liberals using it to criticize socialists in general.
$COUNTRY had a successful literacy program under $LEFT_GOVERMENT.
You get it! We can't fuck over vulnerable people. We can't abandon minorities and LGBT people. Even if we let things get worse to the point of a societal collapse, a lot of people will die because of it -- and societal collapse has not historically led to better societies down the road.
That's such an important point. Anyone who thinks a win by Trump will somehow speed up the advent of socialism is just deluded.
People think Trump will eventually make things so bad that the average man will salivate at the chance for Socialist rule...
What will actually happen if you get a nasty concoction made from a pinch of Handmaid's Tale with a dash of Holocaust 2....
And the average man won't care, as long as the trains run on time and they owned the libs... and if the trains don't run on time, they probably have libs to blame.
I am here to regretfully inform you about the state of american rail infrastructure...
My trans friends are what keeps me committed to voting Biden no matter how disappointed I am in him. Things are already really scary for them right now and I can't be complicit in making them worse, even through inaction.
Consider me another one of your trans friends. If Trump gets elected I'm probably gonna die in a concentration camp. Don't do that to me, don't do that to them. I'm begging you for my life.
As a transwoman as well, I second this!
Don't let the fascist win!
I'd suggest taking a flight overseas the day after the elections, booked prior to it. If Trump losses, you can use it to celebrate it. If he wins... well, you can ask for asylum on arrival.
Can't afford that...
Right? Imagine it's a fucking Saw Trap, and there's an easy way out without sacrificing anyone... and an equally easy way out sacrificing everyone. Make the less sociopathic choice.
I can’t even imagine how awful the people who fill that vacuum would be.
Most based .ml user
Based and practicalpilled
Thank you for being a sane human 🙏
This is the way.
On one hand I'd like it if the Democrats put up someone more certain to beat Trump. On the other Joe has shown he supports labor and things are moving in the right direction in that regard. I'd hate it if he we get a corpo Democrat that halts this progress.
I'd vote for ToS era Pike over Trump. I'd vote for a candidate who only communicates via ouija board over Trump. I'd vote to not have a president for 4 years before I'd vote for Trump.
It's crazy that Trump can get convicted of fraud, be found liable for sexual assault, promise to abuse presidential power to get revenge against those who cross him, actively undermine both national and global security, promise to round up millions and put them into camps, attempt to overthrow the election and refuse to not try it again, and so on, and his side is still so loyal they'll wear solidarity diapers for him.
I'm so down for ouija board prez.
Ouija board prez 'channeling' FDR: T-A-X-T-H-E-R-I-C-H-Goodbye
lol
He is like a cult's leader, they can do no wrong. People's belief in him is unflappable.
Give it a few months
Maybe they can settle for one of those wheelchair computers that tracks your eyes looking at the letters.
And now I'm curious how many things depend on having a president at all, and what his role is, by design, in the US and other countries.
Cabinet and federal appointments are the big thing. That's why I'll take Biden over Trump. I'm not just voting for him, I'm voting for the 4000 jobs in energy, health, labor, transportation, etc. to be run by Democrats, liberals, and qualified people.
Trump, and project 2025 plan to fill all those roles with right wing nutjobs who will do anything to please the right. On top of those 4000, they'd expand the presidential appointment power to fire up to 45% of the federal workforce. Meteorologist who said the hurricane won't hit Alabama? GONE! Doctor who said injecting bleach was a bad idea? FIRED!
I'll take anyone who won't put Project 2025 in motion.
Didn't we have a ouija board as a president back when Nancy's psychic was running the show?
No, you fools, the divine spirits of the stars are different than ghosts!
I’m voting Brandon but let’s not pretend he didn’t shit the bed. It was fucking awful. Brandon should fuck off, but I’d vote for a corpse over any republican, and that will probably be true for the rest of my life.
It's funny how the standard by which we judge Biden is so high, and the standard for Trump is so low. Like... "oh wow, orange man form complete sentence, he's really killin it" vs "omg Biden stumbled over his words and had one bad night, his candidacy is over".
Biden had more than “a bad night” the dude looks like he’s aging out of the ability to stay awake for 90 minutes at a time.
Fuck trump and the GOP for the rest of time but Joe looks like shit dude, and he has for a while. Don’t fucking gaslight me.
There’s so much Democratic gaslighting going on now it’s ridiculous. They need to stop fucking around, put the hammer down and just run Newsom. What do the egotists like RBG and Biden think their legacy is going to be? Step out gracefully and let someone else take the reins jfc. Otherwise the legacy you leave is that you have fucked us all.
That's fine. He surrounds himself with capable people (The other guy's are all heading to prison and were always the most incompetent for their positions). His party is just as corpo as the other, but they will not enact Project 2025 and still have a chance at change for the better (the other party does not). One party might maintain the crappy status quo, the other will absolutely entrench and yank the country further in the wrong direction irreversibly against the will of the majority.
The issue here is that Biden has to compete for the morons in the middle who somehow can’t decide between an obvious traitor and a mediocre democrat. So he simply must perform better. The standard is truly higher for him because it takes a lot to sway the mentally defective undecideds.
There's not really any swing voters who are undecided. There is a massive group that is voting for Trump, and a lot of people who would rather stay home on election day. And all year it has been "Biden needs to win" but now even the DNC is horrified that he is totally unappealing. He belongs in a hospice unit, not the White House. Biden has been like this since the 2020 primaries, just now everyone has to see how old Biden really is.
That is not all where the discussion is right now. The discussion is whether Biden is the best person we have. We still can put someone else forth and now it's the time to do it.
One bad night? You're joking, right? Or have you convinced yourselves this inane rambling isn't a real, long term issue?
Inane rambling? You are talking about Trump, right?
Trump's faults are obvious to all of us. Even when I talk to Trump supporters at work they recognize it and mostly just don't care.
Gaslight, deny, deflect. Anything to avoid facing how fucked we are.
We're talking about Biden, not Mr 34 felonies.
Stop fuckin strawmanning, jesus
Technically I'm voting for Biden, in reality I'm voting against Trump. I really wish I had a better option...
Outside of voting, you have options. I'm not American, but I'd advise any communists to vote Biden simply because the repression under Trump could get really ugly, hindering any proper organisation. Just view it as what I think it also actually is: A cynical, pragmatic move to save you and other working people from more open repression, nothing more.
But before and after voting: Put your energy into unions like the IWW, into neighbourhood organisations for mutual aid, into community defense like the SRA or Redneck Revolt, into antifascist organisation, into refining your own position and presenting it to others. Create networks and connections. All preventing Trump is doing is buying time for now to do exactly that. Things will only get worse in the decades ahead, with no end in sight for the climate catastrophe and further decay of capitalism - and laying the groundwork of actually being able to do something is critically important right now, in my opinion.
Of course everyone is in the end their own master when it comes to decisions like this. Just - remember that by not voting in this specific election you also aren't changing anything. And while I fully understand the desire to organise for a third party, they have been marginalised effectively, at least I personally don't think electoral politics will bring any relevant changes, one way or the other. They are just about who carries the whip used against you, and in this case if the are openly and harshly, or covertly and less efficiently using it.
That all being said - I think a few people here overestimate the amount of tankies and communists that won't vote Biden. The group is marginal in the big scheme of things. If Biden loses, you can be certain, they were not responsible, they are most likely less than 1% of voters. Personally, I'd blame the corporate core of the Democratic party and middle class liberals for being out of touch with reality.
Nah, they'll blame us the same way they blame us for losing the 2016 general election. We are simultaneously too small to matter but able to turn the tide of the largest election in the United States.
Don't we all? .. I think very few people would choose Biden absent it being necessary to avoid the hellscape guaranteed by not voting for him
I’m voting party for socialism and liberation and you can too. They’re running Claudia de la Cruz on a platform of Palestinian statehood and an end to arms shipments to Israel.
For me there’s no better time to start building a new American political formation. If the democrats wise up and snap left when they see the third party/lack of turnout then that’s fine too.
The left got so close to taking the DNC in 2016 they had to go to court to affirm their right to tell the left to eat a dick regardless of voters or donations, and now they're pushing legislation to strip the red tape from taking away nonprofit status from leftist orgs. Dems are running scared and it has their faschie flag flying high (see op disinformation campaign claiming anyone who dislikes biden is a 'tankie')
Of course, even though they've spent more time attacking the left than they EVER have Republicans they'll be happy to place the singular blame on us then march further right so they can shocked pikachu when the left doesn't vote for them then either.
This vote is far too important to protest vote. Especially now that I live in a swing state.
So, take this point of view as what it is: a view on the situation from an outsider, I am not American, I am a German communist. While I do probably look more closely at American politics than most likely the average American simply from being interested in politics to a pathological degree, I might not have the full picture of an American who is also as interested in politics.
I think in this particular moment, as much as the Democrats do their best to antagonise you, as much as you are correct that someone like Biden will continue with the same status quo bullshit that created the situation to begin with, as much as he won't be helping the people suffering from (neo)-colonialism in a meaningful way overseas - I don't think that this particular election is the time to vote third party. The chance may come, and best then to do it not as individuals based on your personal conscience, but as an organised group, with concrete messaging communicated. And even in other elections and outside this vote, organising for a third party - while I personally don't have a lot of hope for electoral politics - is certainly better than investing energy into the Democratic party, whose supporters seem to have no problems spewing hatred towards you for not agreeing with their party line and view of reality.
But I think underestimating Trump could be genuinely dangerous. Not because he will "ruin America" or anything like that. Simply, because he will be in a position to dial up repression, potentially leaving you with a situation in 2-4 years, where the party you voted for has to move underground, either having gotten outlawed or further marginalised and infiltrated. The situation looks critical enough to me, that under a Trump presidency, unions and leftist orgs will face open persecution much more than under someone like Biden - who is admittedly bad enough. Persecution up to outright criminalising them, to encouraging right-wing militias to kill their members with a slap on the wrist as a consequence or no legal repercussions at all. Yes, I do think that is unfortinately a realisitic possibility. And at this point, I don't think leftist orgs in the US have the resilience yet to efficiently organise in the underground.
That being said, I won't tell you a vitriolic "you will be at fault" if you choose to vote and organise as you want to. I do also see advantages, like getting visibility for your issues and potentially by reaching certain threshholds getting public funding support and the likes (that exists in the US too, right?). But I'd still advise it in this election - as shitty and cynical as it is - to vote for the old fart that doesn't swing the whip of the state as hard on your back as the one that might outright strangle you with it. Getting a proper communist, grassroots organisation running in the United States is important for the whole world, and I fear it will be impossible, or at least much, much harder under Trump (mostly, again, because there are no proper structures in place to move into illegality and organising underground, from everything I can tell.)
Just because you are still voting Biden, doesn't mean you don't care.
It just means you still don't want the raving malignant narcissist Trump.
Any somewhat normal person would be the obvious choice over Trump. Any person who is not clearly a traitor to USA and Democracy would be preferable to Trump.
I don't know about the "traitor" thing. Edward Snowden would definitely make a better president than Trump.
Snowden verifiably paid a higher price while serving the interests of the people. Sacrificed far more than Trump ever has or will. He was a fairly connected govt contractor living in Hawaii, living a good life before he had to flee.
Yeah some treason is cool
Like, yes, Trump is a traitor, but the real problem is he did it for the wrong treasons, making him trash.
What I've seen so many people not understand with the situation we are in right now, is that we can't fix our current situation in one election. Everything is far to tucked up for that, so the best that can be done is vote for the least fucked up option and work to improve things. People refusing to participate or vote for the candidate who is unfortunately our best option currently (biden) are doing more damage than the people voting for the fascist party. The perfect candidate/option does not exist and never will (obviously not saying everything biden has done has been good).
Forget a perfect candidate. Just go back and watch the 2012 debate and both Obama and Mitt Romney were infinitely better than Joe Biden or Trump.
But they never told me which of them was the better golfer.
God it feels stupid to write that and it being an actual argument during a presidential debate.
People do understand that concept, but it's literally what Democrats have been doing for the past 40 years and it has put us right here where we are right now. The "lesser of two evils" thing just has no propellant left, no one is buying that line anymore. Neoliberalism needs to go before Democrats can start winning again.
You need to understand that people have been saying "just put the neolibs in power again and we'll work to improve things" every election cycle, and now we are closer to fascism than we've literally ever been. You at least understand why people see that strategy as a failure, right? Like, you understand why no one believes it anymore?
I mean all the concerned people could take to the streets right now.
The DNC wants you to believe that all you can do is cast your vote for something every other year and just take the options presented. In that sense they are worse than the Reps who encourage their base to be active for more than just the ballots and it is working.
Especially now the Dems give me huge 1984 vibes in how the individual should handle politics relative to the party.
Democrats were good at the first part, but not the second. I remember lots of Dems saying "Vote for Biden, and then we'll hold his feet to the fire!" Well, there was no "holding his feet to the fire", because that's seen as enabling Trump.
Yes, but there are candidates who are better, such as Jill Stein and Cornel West. You can't vote for a perfect candidate, but you can vote for the best candidate.
You might as well vote for Barney the dinosaur for all the good it will do.
A vote for a candidate who cannot win is wasted.
No candidate can win, unless you vote for them. That's the entire point of voting.
Biden is simply not our best option.
What exactly makes a geriatric 81 year old the most fit person for the job?
There is plenty of time to get a new candidate.
Not having enough time and voting for the least fucked candidate is old and tired. How long do we vote for the Turd over the Douche instead of voting for someone that we actually believe in?
Also, I can't justify genocide.
Hooooooly fuck this gets 27 upvotes? There it is folks. Leftists are doing more damage by refusing to vote than the people who stormed the capitol. This hot take brought to you by lemmy.
1000 people stormed the capitol. Allowing trump to win is far far far worse. Federal judge appointments alone are worth far more.
Yes, Hillary and the DNC allowed Trump to win by ignoring their base and chasing imaginary "swing" voters. And now they're doing it again.
The Republican party wouldn't exist if everybody voted. That is a straight up fact. As fucked as our election system is, they are far enough the minority that if everyone got out, the EC wouldn't matter.
You want a "left light" and a "true left", you aren't going to get it by abstaining, or by voting for nonviable moonshot third-party candidates. You are going to get it by abolishing the far right party and making that tiny sliver of the whole population realize that their antiquated views aren't welcome here.
They need to be crushed.
They only exist because people don't want to vote for the lesser of two evils, so instead they just don't vote. And what do you know, a -1 for the less evil is just as effective as a +1 for the more evil.
All of their success is brought on by feeding apathy in their opposition, making it more difficult to vote, destroying any faith in the system, and gerrymandering.
So yes, in my opinion, the far left refusing to hold their nose for a few minutes may as well be voting for the insurrectionist.
So this happened under Obama. People voted blue no matter who, gave Dems a super majority and they used it to pass a GOP-crafted bill that forced people to pay for useless private insurance.
The party itself needs to change and the types of candidates that the establishment supports needs to change. That doesn't happen when they can do their pied piper thing and keep winning. And no "just one last hit" won't let them overcome the addiction to corporate conservativism.
In a two party system the only way to "crush" the extreme right is by establishing another party to take the spot in the two party system. And you know what will happen then? The Dems will move from being the far right party with gay rights to being the extreme right party. Because they already are far right by any sensible measure.
33 after I just upvoted. Vote for the Joe.
This is some weird ass propaganda.
The best thing that Biden ever did was just to not be Trump.
Why are these memes so weirdly die-hard in the support of a man that is visibly unfit for the 4 years of presidency?
No one is actually excited about old Joe. It's just that he's simply not Trump.
It would be best if he steps down so that we can get a person in office that actually excites people for more than just not being the other guy.
Why don't they seal the deal with anyone younger ? Surely there's one better young person in the USA ?
The US political system has some issues. That's why. Ask the DNC.
The DNC replied that you are just a secret Trump fan. The party knows what is best and you should not expect primaries and having a say. Also we have always been at war with East-Asia.
It's first past the post plus old people wanting to vote for super old people because "they're just like them".
None of them ran. Biden's admin and his fund raising base held enormous sway over the party at-large. As soon as he corralled the support of this tiny monied elite, everyone else had to either get in line or get marked as party pariahs and ousted for their disloyalty.
The pastiche of democracy is predicated on a primary system that can produce and sustain rival candidates. But when leadership in the party are terrified of "Russian bots" and "Leftist Antifa Agitators" undermining the general election, they circle the wagons around their incumbents and bow down to their mega-donors out of cowardice.
No rival candidates means no real primary means no one actually challenges Biden on his merits.
The primary system is obviously corrupted. The incumbent managed to shut out everyone else. This happened on both sides of this inept stupid system. Two candidates who it is painfully obvious are unfit for the job. Geriatrics clogging up the political machine stopping even retirees from having a go.
The youth backlash will eventually upend everything, since not only they are denied a voice, but they will also be made the servants of the boomers for much of the next 20 years.
I'm sure that herding behind a senile will give the Democratic Party the incentive to reconsider their corporate-oriented outlook /s
Really, if the Dems brought in someone who was like... 50 (and probably not Newsom owing to prolonged hateboner for Cali) they'd gain 10 points in the polls immediately. Whether true or not, the narrative that Biden is old and doddering is there and that debate performance did nothing to dissuade it.
He had a cold, okay. /s
I'm voting against Trump. Not thrilled to have a president who might have to have his Oval Office relocated to a nursing home.
I don't expect either to last 4 more years. Especially Trump.
If Trump does win and dies while destroying the world, imagine what younger dictator would follow...
I'm more afraid of a smarter asshole. Trump's the starting gun.
Yeah, some ppl don't get that you don't have to like Biden, to vote against trump. 🤷♂️
You mean you don't have to like Kamala? I'm voting Kamala.
Not fond of her, but she'll do better than Trump by leagues and miles and make history while not rocking the boat or affecting any meaningful change. Libs will love her, she'll be a democrat party darling. I bet she gets a second term.
I'm voting for the man with one foot in the coffin that is not trump, but it doesn't matter because I don't live in a swing state.
Yeah, I feel like people are freaking out and ignoring that Biden (and Trump) are largely the people they surround themselves with, and the policies they push.
They've both been president for years.
The boyfriend last night was surprised I didn't watch the debate.
"They've both been president. I was paying attention. I know what their presidencies will be like. Why listen to them talk about it?"
That, and we both know how terribly uninformative debates are. I got similar criticism for skipping it but like, we know their policies.
I was talking to some friends and I don't get independents at this point. If you don't know who you're voting for and need to see this debate to decide, you haven't been paying attention to the past 8 years.
That's a very good point. The president is in charge of appointing a lot of other people that are more important for making decisions.
This isnt a dig at him but Biden probably hasnt made a single decision without heavy guidance by all the people around him. This is always the case to a degree i assume, but probably even more with senile people like him. It just makes the whole concept of a president so nonsensical.
This is what Germany in 1929 was - without social media.
Man I love love love not being from the US.
I'm in Europe and things aren't really better here... Putin on the east, LePen and Meloni on the west...
I live in Canada, 15 km from the US border. When shit kicks off down there millions of them could come north expecting that Canada will welcome them with open arms. We will be unable to feed or house them. Many will die of exposure in the first winter. They should go south and hope that Mexico will take them in.
As someone living around the Timmins area, we've imported some hot climate individuals and still have room, send them up! The Northlander should be running by then /fingers crossed/
Biden loses
OP blames the 5 tankies actually living in the USA for voting 3rd party
I was planning to blame Russian Internet robots
Or you could except that the D party sometimes runs shit tir candidates.
They should have been preparing a replacement for Biden since he was sworn into office.
Now.... Who really knows. There's so much at stake for more than the presidency. If the choices are between a 78 year old felon under multiple indictments who is only out for himself, and an 81 year old who wants to better the country but is, well, 81... I'll take the 81 year old
accept
And yes, everyone already knows that.
Well when the only other vote is fascism, hate, and bullying... Yeah we're gonna vote for the not ridiculous choice.
fuck off Yanks, stop making every post about you
Bloody ell fooking wankers. We will throw your shit in harbor, you better stop playing you tea sipping global citizen 😋
But NOOOOO both sides both sides lalalaa can't hear you both sides lalalaa /s
goes onto a post about not listening to anyone and still voting biden
accuses any opposition of not listening to anyone
Hypocrite
Tankies? CNN, MSNBC, and NYTimes are all concerned.
WAPO too.
Clearly this is a far-right conspiracy and they have all taken over the media.
/s
Legendary Tankies, the entire group... /s
Íf he wore a clown suit and only spoke Pig-Latin during the debate.... considering the alternative
He would STILL be the only viable candidate worth voting for
-Hannah Arendt, German-American philosopher and political theorist, in fuckin 1964 lmao. some things never change!
I've been called many names, including "tankie", so I'll take a stab at responding.
I'm not mad about the debate at all. I expected something fairly similar. I'm mad that Biden and the Democratic leadership seems to have put their own interests above the interest of the
partypeople (edit: Ugh. Terrible typo).If Biden had gracefully stepped aside and given just about any other Democrat his full support, we'd be in a much better position now. Instead we have a candidate with a ton of baggage and who presents an easy target for Trump's style of argument. Many mainstream Democrats, including the NYT, are finally starting to realize this. Unfortunately it's probably a year too late. At this point it would just make it look like Demoratic kingmakers forced him out.
If I went by the modern definition of "tankie" as, an anti-american authoritarian communist. I probably wouldn't be mad at any of this. I'd be cackling with glee because either of the current nominees will be terrible for the US. Neither of them has a serious long term plan. Neither of them can articulate a policy position. Both of them will continue to erode the power and moral authority of the United States.
Like it or not. Trump is likely to be the next president https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/. At this point it's probably wise to start thinking about how to limit his impact and how to start cleaning up the mess afterwards.
The interests of the party is the interests of the rich :)
Step 1: Flee the country
Step 2: Laugh at all the idiots getting what they deserve
Step 3: Get nuked anyways
Good luck doing that. It's a bitch to live just about anywhere else you'd actually want to live without citizenship.
Biden still owes me $600
Damn right he does.
We got to bruh, the shit Trump & MAGA are planning for 2024 is wild.
Would be nice to have a candidate who stands for something other than "he's not the other guy" or "I'm sticking it to [group]!"
Considering that Biden's main competitor is an actual neonazi and the USA have an undemocratic election system that disadvantages all but two parties, there's pretty much no choice but the senile grandpa who's not a neonazi.
yeah like people keep saying that there is need for someone better than biden, but at the moment he's the only option thst is valid. it's about damage control not about making everything utopia.
they complain that biden is not good enough, while completely ignoring that trump is literal neonazi. how in the fuck it is even question wheter you should vote for trump or biden because the fact is that either of them is going to the office. not some third candinate who would be actually good
As far as I can tell, his administration isn't so bad overall (granted, compared to children in cages this is a low bar to cross). It's not like he does every single job personally.
Still voting Biden, but this feels an awful lot like many past elections where people are holding their nose and voting for a candidate they don’t necessarily like just because they really don’t like the other candidate: Bush v Gore, Bush v Kerry, Clinton v Trump. Those elections never seem to turn out good.
That's exactly what this is.
Give me a viable other option, please! Biden is soggy, cold oatmeal from 4 days ago that's probably still fine. Trump is medical waste mixed with gasoline and uranium powder.
I see the coping, Biden is cooked and the election is Lost.
Liberals are self-infecting a loss, and are blindingly running into a wall, the smack will be heard from outer space.
I think what will DEFINITELY help is all the immature passive aggression, like this post, that manifests when anyone dares to suggest they might have an issue they need to fix.
/s, in case that wasn't clear
Yeah.. sure. Not a tankie, I'm European and don't care about influencing you to vote for one or another. But after seeing Biden "debate" Trump I know the dems are fucked. I mean sure, still go out and vote, but I honestly don't see many people doing so.
Absolutely go vote. Tell everyone you know to vote. Don't vote for Trump. But for the love of god, if you're otherwise not going to vote, at least vote third party.
They're...from Europe.
I'm referring to other readers
Vote down-ticket. Especially for state level Secretary of State and Attorney General candidates. That's how we're going to get ranked choice voting in more states
It's honestly extremely sad that the primary requirement to be a leader is "ability to speak perfectly on stage for 2 hours."
It should be a basic requirement of literally any public office. That fact that we have got this far baffles me utterly.
Yeah it's not great, but like... coming across as coherent is important no matter the position. Biden kinda failed that basic competency test, probably just due to his age and not like, stupidity or a personal failing of any kind. I'm still voting for Biden, but yeah it's not exactly an enthusiastic vote.
At this point I doubt tankies should be much of a concern. What are they, 1-2% of the potential Dem voter base? I'd sooner worry about the indecisive ones who have seen the performances in the debate.
They're just very loud on this site.
They’re loud on every site. Their goal is to normalize disenfranchisement. They’re either knowingly or unknowingly doing the job for Republicans.
They're especially loud here because Lemmy's developers are tankies. Some are even supposedly former Chapo Trap House peeps that got kicked off reddit. It's the most annoying part of this place trying to be a reddit replacement. But it's getting better with users calling them out.
Exactly. More specifically, I'm not afraid of how people vote, I'm afraid of people choosing not to.
Add a .000 in front of those numbers and you might be right. If those numbers were accurate you would expect somewhere between, what...1 and 2 million tankies in the US alone?
Biden supporters on the Internet are the worst thing that could happen to Biden.. and they say Tankies are doing Trump's work for him
"Biden wins the election. Here's why that's bad for Biden."
Jesus has my vote..no not him! Jesus Gonzalez from Colombia..He did my cabinets and all I can say is....WELL WOULD YOU JUST LOOK AT THAT
I'm not sure if OP understands what a Tanky is.
Tankie is just the blue version of Woke at this point
I think the Tankies have already made their minds up. The real people who won't be voting Biden are some % people who saw the debate.
Maybe we don't associate Biden with fascism frog
If we let the fascists claim any symbol they want, we will have nothing left.
Pepe was just a depressed frog boi. Pepe is only fascist if we let the fascists win
He's already associated with support for genocide.
Is this loss?
No one minds you voting for Biden believe it or not. We do mind being demonized and straw-personed for not voting for him.
Do you understand why you are being demonized though? You're making a choice that is purely symbolic just so you feel better, but real and vulnerable people across the country have to deal with the fallout.
You want to make a difference? Great! There's a lot of ways to do that. Campaign and fundraise at the local and state level. Push for election reform, ranked choice voting, end to gerrymandering, term limits, electoral college reform, curtail lobbying... any number of things, and push for them more often than once every four years. Voting third party in a presidential election does NOT help.
If you want my respect, acknowledge the reality of the situation and vote for the best option (or the least bad option) among the viable candidates and then work for change within the system. It sucks that we are in this situation, but make a choice grounded in the real world, not a fake ideal world.
I'll vote for biden unless he drops out and a more progressive candidate presents itself, in which case I won't vote biden.
I'm normally critical of Biden but this is one of the few times I'll say it. Biden staying in the race is the best thing he can do.
It doesn't matter when he drops out at this point, the time to do that was 8 months ago. If he drops out now and there's an open convention, democrats lose in November. If he drops out after the convention, and the DNC chooses a different candidate to replace him, Democrats lose in November.
The last time anything similar happened, there were riots outside the DNC in Chicago and Hubert Humphrey safely handed the office to Richard Nixon.
Fun fact, Hilary Clinton attended the protests.
Look on the bright side: a vote for Biden is really just a vote for Kamala Harris with extra steps.
Harris is a joke and a cop that made her name on being super hard on small criminal offenses.
She ain't it. I mean, have you heard the weird things that she says while she's speaking?
She's a terrible candidate. A somehow even worse Hillary.
Hillary is such a smug fuck I really don't know what Harris would have to do to make me hate her more.
I mean she habitually lies like Hillary. She is basically an enabler for a fascist police state (extreme militarization and attacking peaceful protesters). Obvious warmonger as well (current admin has that whole genocide enabling thing happening now)
Her khive cult harasses/ed people and tries/ed to get them to commit suicide/ruin their lives. It's been a thing for years. Fun fact is there are Hillary fans that do the same thing. They've not been held accountable for any of these things, and are basically a domestic terror group online. I mean there are plenty of right-wing nuts that do the same, but they get held accountable sometimes.
She aggressively enforced Marijuana convictions that had a pre-dominant predisposition against her own community.
Good to know Democrats aren't interested in winning the left vote anymore
using a pepe to post this is letting the mask slip a bit there bud.
The original image even says "don't care, still voting trump" this is just an edit changing it to biden. Both democrats and republicans can agree on punching to the left. Of course, democrats have to use dog whistles like calling them all "tankies" just like how republicans love to discriminate against minorities while making references to them as "inner city youths" or whatever.
Classic BlueMAGA play
I wonder how many of the dyed-in-the-wool DNC supporters would stay home or vote third party if Biden wasn't the candidate chosen at the convention.
This is the thing. People like to blame Berniebros and whatnot for Clinton's loss in '16, but the reality is that the centrist Democrats that vote for the party's corporate-backed candidate wouldn't vote for a progressive one, so even if Bernie had won the nomination, he probably still would have lost because he would have lost the support of these DNC hardliners. I heard people literally say in '16 that if Bernie had somehow won the nomination over Hillary that they would have just stayed home. It's wild to think how ideologically balkanized the Democratic party is, with so many people fervently belonging to the leftist minority that holds their nose every election to vote for another mediocre person whose best attributes are being "not an outright fascist" versus the people who will never vote for a truly left wing candidate because they're fiscally conservative but socially liberal and just allergic to compromising in the same way that they've forced the leftists in their party to do since forever.
What is sad is the American people DID vote for progressive policy. The problem is American politicians represent their donors, and turned their backs on their constituents.
There is no expectation for an elected Democrat to align with their party platform. Likewise no one can or should expect a Republican to break from their party. Any reliance on either is a fool's errand.
I mean about 70% of Americans support at least a public option for health insurance. Yet there is no pathway forward for 70% of Americans with either party.
So it sucks that such an intransigent faction isn't even representative.
Pepe is dead. Stop.
You address this to tankies. I see very few of them around here these days.
Cringe karma post.
They're trying to conflate anyone who isn't in full support of Biden as a tankie. It's more of the same from the last year that's been used to shut down any debate or criticism.
Giving Hexbear aura. Could be shittier though, too much corn 🌽
I will never vote Democrats!
Since I do not intend to move to the US but I vote the lesser of several evils here in Europe