[Serious] Why do so many people seem to hate veganism?
Seen a lot of posts on Lemmy with vegan-adjacent sentiments but the comments are typically very critical of vegan ideas, even when they don't come from vegans themselves. Why is this topic in particular so polarising on the internet? Especially since unlike politics for example, it seems like people don't really get upset by it IRL
I've been a vegetarian for 15 years. People IRL often do get offended if you tell them you don't eat meat. I try my best to avoid saying it because it often leads to being lectured about proteins. Everyone suddenly becomes a nutritionist when you explain why you don't eat meat.
Yeah. I try not to mention it to people if I can avoid it. I work construction and am surrounded by manly men tring to out man each other. I had one guy offer me bear jerkey and got bent out of shape when I declined. He wouldn't stop. He just kept on me about why I didn't eat meat. After about an hour of him asking again and again why I don't eat meat I said "meat's another word for dick and eating dick is gay". As problematic as it was, it worked.
It never cases to amaze me that a 250pound dude with a 40oz soda in one hand and a mouthfull of gas station pizza thinks he has the responsibility to lecture me about nutrition.
It's both sad and hillarious that this worked. I wonder if you created a new vegetarian as well
Probably not but I like to think it's created a feedback loop going on in his head endlessly. "Meat is manly. Meat is dick.'"
We need to take the small victories
My dad always acts like i'm close to dying because i'm vegan. I work out every day, he eats meat 3 times a day and even his vegetables are unhealthy as fuck. He's so overweight that getting into his car is super exhausting. Pretty weird if someone like that gives you tips on how to eat right.
As a life-long vegetarian, this has been my experience as well.
Why do they believe you only find protein in meat?
Lots of people are really stupid
And we've been (forgive the pun) fed propaganda by the industrial farming and food industry for generations, not to mention the religious right.
You are not wrong. I am vegetarian for about 15 years and I've literally have had a father of a friend yell at me. He was telling vegetarians aren't real and if anybody would actually not eat meat for a couple of months they would die because they would be missing vital nutrients only found in meat. He was yelling at me to stop telling lies and be truthful.
The things he's eating often didn't eat any meat. Hehe.
Generations of marketing.
Some essential amino acids are difficult to find in adequate quantities on a vegan diet. If you don't vary your protein sources or make sure you are getting the right amino acids, then you may develop a deficiency, which can lead to poor health or even be fatal.
I have read that this is largely a myth based on a book from the 70s, and that while there are varying proportions of amino acids in different vegan protein sources, there is still enough of each so that you could easily get everything you need.
I read this in a book years ago that I don't remember the name of, but found a source instantly
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6893534/
Ya, it's probably more correct to say any concerns are overstated. And I probably didn't help by saying "difficult". It's not difficult, just not as simple as eating any meat. And like I mentioned, as long as you're varying your protein sources, you will be fine.
I'm not saying you're incorrect. But I want to point out that many people who concern troll about how difficult vegan diets are to be healthy on are also people who don't question how unhealthy their current choices are when it comes to consuming soda, energy drinks, red meat, other snacks, etc. Some people do, but most people who ask me about nutrition are not people who count their own calories or try to balance all their meals. It's just as easy to be unhealthy as a non-vegan.
I’m what I call “mostly vegetarian“ which means that I choose to not have meat, but will eat small portions on occasion. And boy does that just piss off people like no other. Worse is I get it from both sides, to either commit in full or just give in to my natural instincts and consume more red meat.
Sometimes I just want a salad. Sometimes I want some bacon crumbles on that salad. Sometimes I want 3oz of fish with a plate of veggies. But what I can tell you is 3/4 of my plate will have healthy veggies or fruit.
Just tell them you have alpha-gal, then they’ll leave you alone easier
From what I have seen, it more stems from the activism vegans are engaged in more than the actual veganism.
I think there's nothing wrong with explaining your ideas and why you believe them to those willing to listen, but I can see why pushy activism for any cause can get annoying quickly. There are often Jehovah's witnesses outside my local supermarket, for example, but they only give you a pamphlet if you specifically approach them
It's not just pushy, it's judgemental and vitriolic
Oh, you eat meat, murderer? Your shoes are made from the skins of defenseless creatures. The sugar you're so callously adding to your coffee was processed with ground-up bones, you unredeemable monster.
Even the arguments for veganism that aren't built on animal cruelty still take on an air of moral superiority. Don't you care about the planet and future generations? How dare you trade carbon emissions for the temporary comfort of a bacon cheeseburger!
The vegan movement has always been associated with anger and contempt, even if it is justified.
There’s also the ‘guilt by association’. Look at organisations like PETA: they even complained about things like the treatment of entirely fictional animals in video games, like Palworld. Basically, you can’t even argue that ‘they look like real animals so it encourages real-world mistreatment’ like they usually do.
That does not make you look particularly sane. I’m sure they do good work as well, but that sort of thing isn’t helping their cause.
Saying PETA is representative of vegans is rather like using Antifa as an example of liberals, or Info Wars for conservatives.
Which is exactly what everyone does. At least in the US. And every side is equally wrong about it.
The loudest voices always draw the most attention. And I don’t know any other vegan voice that’s as loud as PETA’s. That’s kind of the problem.
In my experience, your first sentence sums it up nicely.
They assume a moral high ground because they've adopted a diet that is generally deemed healthier and better for the environment (I don't always agree with this).
But unless they're also doing all the things we could all do better (e.g. not buying new, not upgrading the the latest and greatest, not taking 40 minute showers, not eating out every second day), they're only somewhat less guilty of environmental damage than the average person, but they're taking a generally undeserved "holier than thou" position and then shoving it down your throat. This isn't everyone, and I don't really care what you eat, but these are the vegans that get under my skin.
Eh, I can see it both ways. Like, nobody is, or can be, perfect. That doesn't mean they don't have a valid moral argument for the good choices they make. They're trying to be a better person, and I think it's fair to help other people recognize the poor decisions they are making. Climate change especially affects all of us.
On the other hand, you're 100% correct. Nobody can lay exclusive claim to the high ground, so anybody acting superior is probably an asshole.
PETA was giving away free coloring books one time so I decided to order some for my kids thinking it would be good for them to hear from all sides.
One of the pictures was three people standing over a turkey dinner with the most horrific caricatures you can think of absolutely salivating over how juicy the turkey was going to be.
I shit you not.
I had to trash the sons of bitches.
Really killed that group for me, I always that people were exaggerating about them and how bad they are.
They killed that little piece of me.
In my experience it's usually more like: Them: here have some of this meat thing Me: No thanks Them: why not it's really good try some Me: i don't eat meat Them: but why? Me: to reduce animal cruelty and environmental harm Them: wow how dare you be so judgy
I'm not really sure how I'm supposed to not offend this type of person in this situation and frankly I don't think it's my fault or my problem they're offended. My theory is that that agree with my reasons but rather than change or live with the cognitive dissonance they just lash out at anyone that reminds them they could be living more ethically even if they basically MAKE them say it.
Blaming vegans for that is bullshit, frankly
That isn't the type of behavior that I think most find annoying but I'm sorry that you get that reaction at all.
I think many people are so annoyed with feeling they are attacked for eating meat (and I do eat meat) that when that button gets pressed the anger just rises up.
For me I get a little true guilt. I know I'm not helping in the best possible ways that I can, all the time. I'm not perfect and won't ever pretend that I am, and I also haven't given up on getting better. When I go a day without eating meat, I congratulate myself. With a burger. (No, not really.)
The UK has a high rate of veganism, and part of that is attributed to the fact that the major vegetarian and vegan organisations in the UK generally recommend persuading people by offering them delicious food that is also vegetarian/vegan and saying it's more ethical. On the other hand, the equivalent organisations in the US tend to lean more towards recommending telling people that eating animal products is unethical, and it's difficult to accuse someone of unethical behaviour without being insulting. It also doesn't help that multibillion-dollar organisations have run successful smear campaigns against groups like PETA - everyone's heard of the time they took someone's pet dog and killed it, but most aren't aware that it happened once and gets reported on as if it's news every few months, or that it was an accident as the dog's collar had come off and it was with a group of strays, and got muddled with another dog, so was put down weeks earlier than it was supposed to be, bypassing the waiting period they had specifically to avoid this kind of mistake.
PETA has a lot more fucked up behavior under its belt than the one time they “accidentally” euthanized a dog they stole from someone, and much of their bad behavior has been very much maliciously intentional. Here just a small sample.
ETA: A few more, because why the hell not? Fuck PETA.
That's actually not the problem. The problem are those who repeat themselves ever louder, even to people who have expressed disinterest.
Do-gooder derogation Basically, some people perceive others' moral choices as criticism or as some kind of bragging.
And some just see those who militantly focus on attacking fellow individuals instead of the systems that are actually to blame (but which they otherwise support and/or benefit from, like capitalism, racism, and ableism) counterproductive, annoying, and hypocritical.
The militant vegans I have come across, and being vegan myself, it's a lot, far too many (E: to the point I actively avoid vegan spaces), are almost exclusively drowning in so much privilege, they can't see how ridiculous they're being in their bizarre militancy of policing other people's plates instead of the actual industries abusing animals (and humans, who these vegans rarely to never pay any thought to, not out loud or in their actions, anyway).
(before I even hit send: if you feel personally attacked by my comment - that's a sign for you to think about it with yourself and ideally do something about it, not try and prove me wrong, inevitably proving me 100% right)
Fascinating! Thank you for this article. It exactly describes what's happening: "oh, you think you're better than us? I'll have another steak!"
This is really easy to test in fairly small social groups. The next time you're in a group ordering pizza, say you want cheese, because you don't eat meat. Now watch everyone else order, or change their order to, double meat supreme with bacon. It's almost like they can't help themselves. It's hilarious how easy you can change other people's behavior.
There's another factor here. People who are vegan, sober, poly, don't drive, and any number of choices are breaking societal norms. Most people don't even think about these things as choices. They do the default. Realizing that there's a choice, and that this person decided not to do the default, puts people off. It makes them uncomfortable. They begin to question things they've never had to evaluate.
If you accept that there are moral/ethical problems with eating meat (contribution to climate change, health concerns, animals being killed and eaten, whatever), and choose to eat meat anyway, and encounter a vegan, what has to happen?
You can accept that they are making a better choice, but then you have to accept that you're making a worse choice. Most people are cowards and protect the ego at any cost. Rather than shrugging and saying "yeah, i should eat less meat. Good for you taking the high road", which requires accepting that you're not being the best, you can instead grab onto any reasons why no it's really them that sucks. That's easier, more comfortable, and doesn't require any painful introspection or changes.
It's the same mechanism when people get mad at cyclists, pedestrians, people who go to the gym, people who don't shop at Walmart, whatever. They're doing something that makes you feel bad in comparison. Most people are terrible at that and will lash out instead of doing anything productive.
Alternatively, or maybe additionally, people are really tribal, and once they adopt the idea that vegans (or cyclists, or people driving small cars, or people wearing sandals, whatever) are in the outgroup, then they enjoy being hostile to them.
People are ego driven emotional morons. All of us. Me, too. It's terrible.
I've never once in the last decade seen a single vegan post other than recipes. What I do see is constant posts about how "vegans are always throwing it my face/holier than thou", "I'm gonna eat extra meat because vegans make me feel bad". I really don't think vegans are the problem, I think these fools fall for every single piece of beef industry propaganda that comes across their screens.
As much as I'd like that to be true, I've definitely still seen vegan spaces online that are intensely alienating and hostile 😅 when I was using reddit, often anything from r/vegan that hit r/all was pretty hostile to anyone who hadn't already decided it was an important issue for them and made big lifestyle changes accordingly, adopting veganism.
To be totally honest I've also never seen any beef industry propaganda encouraging people to hate vegans or resent veganism. If you can think of any examples off the top of your head I'd be curious to see them (if nothing comes to mind thats fine, I don't intend that as a gotcha)
I'm not vegan (grew up with an eating disorder, not in any position to cut stuff out of my diet or make eating more complicated/difficult, though I have a lot of respect for vegan ethics) but I am a big nerd about open source stuff and linux, and I've observed similar things in that space. I have a friend who's averse to open source stuff because folks have evangelized to her aggressively and with the same sort of superiority complex many folks perceive vegans as having. I'm grateful she's excited to listen to me talk about the stuff I'm excited about anyway these days, but I'm careful not to make her feel pressured to drop proprietary software she's using for open alternatives because I want her to feel respected even though she's not invested in this thing I care about a whole lot
I think when you work hard to adopt a big change for reasons you're proud of, it's easy to view yourself as superior for having learned the thing, or made the dietary change
Back on reddit there were those who had alerts set every time the word came up across the site, then they'd brigade the fitness and health subreddits with their vegan crew to derail any conversations. It was really annoying. No clue if that's still a problem because lolreddit
It's a first world hill to die on, and many of the people who espouse veganism are only able to do so because of their own privilege.
It's a combination of smugness and "I'm better than you" and the lack of awareness that everyone had and continues to benefit from a world that has always used animal products. The Industrial Revolution basically ran on steam engines and leather belts, for example.
I have absolutely no problem with the idea that using fewer animal products and eating less meat is a good idea. I also recognize that feeding the world's growing population is probably going to involve insects being more widely used as a food source.
Vegans literally are suggesting solutions to the growing population because in almost every situation, it is much more efficient by land and water use for people to eat plant-based rather than meat. It's only a "first world hill to die on" if you think poor people can't eat plants. Sorry but I don't think this is a very accurate take...
"Meat from herd mammals" is not at all the sum total of use of animal products. Should we all be eating less beef? Sure, I can get behind that. None? I'm okay with that, too. What about eggs, cheese, butter - and that's only referring to things we eat, not things we use for other purposes.
People also continue to benefit from the work of slaves in the past and even present. What's your point? Do you think slavery is ethical? Is someone choosing to avoid products created from slave labour not a more ethical choice?
What privilege? Meat is the most expensive food out there. Eating rice and beans isn’t really showing privilege
Those aren't the vegans that most people are talking about. Being poor and having to eat vegan is different from being vegan because you want to stand out from everyone else with your vegan black bean soy burger with vegan cheese on a vegan sprouted whole wheat bun. If you can afford the overpriced "vegan" versions of typically non-vegan foods, and complain about your struggles being vegan, that's privilege.
When you're poor, you don't advertise the fact that you're eating vegan. You just make rice and beans because it's the absolute cheapest food available. You'll take meat and non-vegan when it's available. But at the very least, you'll survive on rice and beans. It's generally not something that people are proud of.
This. When I was poor af and regularly using the food bank they'd give venison periodically, and that was my favorite part of the boxes. That and this rice and seasoning meals went together amazingly and would last me like a week of meals.
You're making a big assumption here by saying that all vegans are buying vegan substitutes like Beyond Burgers. And I mean very big, since all the vegans I know don't eat that stuff or buy it occasionally as a treat, or at a restaurant. Most of my meals are simple with rice, noodles, curry paste, and some vegetables. They can even be frozen or canned to reduce preparation time.
The privilege is being able to choose to eat that way out of a sense of morality or fashion rather for the reason that it's literally all there is to eat. The privilege is being able to turn your nose up at perfectly edible food for no other reason than that it's got a bit of egg, honey, or butter in it without having to worry about starving to death. The privilege is also having access to such an abundance and variety of food that you can maintain a vegan diet year round and not have to fear that you won't meet all the calorie, protein, and vitamin requirements you need to stay alive and healthy while much of the world is in a constant struggle to scrape together enough calories of any kind to stay alive.
that's great, but most vegans you speak to will tell you that we aren't telling the people who lack the privilege we have to go vegan. we're asking our neighbors, our bosses, our friends - people in similar if not the very same life circumstances as us - to walk a couple aisles over from where they buy the meat in the grocery store and buy some beans instead.
people love to bring up the privilege thing, but i would argue that it is entirely irrelevant. the entire point of veganism is to do what is reasonably possible and practicable. not to tell people who don't have the privilege to be so discerning about their diet that they are going to hell or something.
Maybe they mean privilege wrt education? As i understand it, it takes a non-zero amount of knowledge about nutrition to substitute meat completely and not be deficient in something. But I'm a life-long omnivore so I may be wrong
There's also the privilege of living in a location where vegan alternatives are readily and frequently available, vast swaths of the US are in what's known as "food deserts", locations where "residents’ access to affordable, healthy food options (especially fresh fruits and vegetables) is restricted or nonexistent due to the absence of grocery stores within convenient traveling distance" (https://foodispower.org/access-health/food-deserts/) these locations also tend to have high obesity or diabetes rates due to the fact that the only food easily and cheaply available is high in sugar. Add in things like the increased price for even simple vegan foods (like rice and beans) and you might be starting to see the picture, as much as some people would LIKE to be vegan it is literally not possible for them without either taking on substantial additional costs or completely upending their life.
A lot of the reason people who are otherwise pro-vegan (like myself) tend to dislike online vegans is that they will, consistently and smugly, while in a location and economic position where its easier to get vegan options, berate people for eating animal products without ever considering the possibility that its MUCH harder to get non-animal product based foods in certain areas
Holier than thou attitude from new vegans whose world view changed overnight and cognitive dissonance on the part of non vegan with the need to deflect than to make substantial changes.
Because of the trope that vegans are pretentious twats that publicly chastise anyone not vegan.
Like most things it’s one of those situations that’s blown out of proportion and the vast majority of us will never interact with a preachy vegan. I’ve encountered many vegans in the wild and they’ve most all been decent people, and I love picking their brains for decent vegan or vegetarian foods. I don’t mind vegan/vegetarianism, it’s just not easy to do well, so it helps to talk to people who do it for real. That said, I have encountered a few that are on the preachy side, but whatever. They’re no different than the tool who has the “eat tasty animals” bumper sticker and the like.
All the vegans and vegetarians I've met in real life were chill dudes and dudettes. One was an engineer and semi-pro skateboarder that was always making people feel good and happy. Another one was a solid rock climber always smiling.
I know more annoying people complaining about vegans, always grumpy and being proud of always eating meat. I also know this cool swing dance instructor girl who only eats meat, so it's also good.
I actually know a vegan engineer and vegetarian rock climber, too! Had several great dinners and lunches with them both!
The same reason people hate leftists, feminists, trans athletes, "gamer girls", people on welfare, blacks, etc. An image the right cultivated of the group, out of convenient easily-hateable annoying people in it that they could use to create a generalization/stereotype out of. It's something that's able to happen to any group, I could portray any hobbyist or activist in this way the same exact way as these "annoying" groups are portrayed, but the right is particularly willing to just flat out lie, slander, and cheat their way into making countercultural/anti-status-quo groups look as absurd as possible, to the point that the majority of the population falls for it (even those that don't consider themselves to be conservative).
I'll make a comparison. Conservative/"anti-sjw" thumbnails often have a picture of some angry-looking rainbow haired woman, usually the same few, in order to be like "look how irrational and crazy these feminazis are, she must hate men so much" and like 4 out of 5 of those times it's a picture of a woman that was protesting a literal neo-nazi gathering or something, not some sort of radical crazy man-hating feminist. But the internet has conditioned the average person to look at someone like that and immediately think they're an irrational "feminazi", and conservatives showing these pictures everywhere and making 100 videos on the same person makes people subconsciously believe they're rampant and have a massive (and bad) grip on society.
Same kind of thing happens with vegans, you have the same 10 or so internet vegans people use to portray veganism that conditions people to think poorly of the concept "vegan", and when these influencers are confronted about it they say "I don't hate veganism, I just hate the annoying vegans" then they go onto Twitter to complain about the vegans and how they're irrational for not eating meat and their brains must be de-evolving or something. They know what they're doing, but they can hide behind plausible deniability, and the majority of viewers fall for it.
Lot of words to describe cherry-picking, but.. yeah. All of that is true.
Not even a vegan. I love meat. But the classic image of the vegan that constantly reminds you of the fact is not at all consistent with my experience with the several in my life..
I don't like explicitly stating "cherry-picking"/"strawman"/"ad hominem"/other fallacies because people seem to have a visceral reaction to seeing those words, probably are confused as to what they actually are and are assuming you're just throwing out random fallacies to conveniently discredit any arguments with no basis, and will refuse to consider the rest of the stuff they read. I think it's more consumable for the people who really are open to seeing new angles if they have more specific/relatable views to work with, rather than me repeating the same thing they've already heard a hundred times without much elaboration. I can't confirm that though
You’re describing the Fallacy Fallacy, being that the implication that the argument is necessarily wrong because a fallacy has been committed. That a fallacy has been committed by the other party should not alone be used as an argument against the point itself.
I.e. you committed a strawman fallacy by stating that all strawmen are made of straw, therefore no strawmen are made of straw
I don't hate veganism. It's a dietary choice and that's fine. What I hate is vegans. They're always pushy and judgmental and hateful and sometimes even destructive in their activism. They're an annoying group of people and I just don't want to have to deal with them.
Unfortunately this is a topic like abortion.
Vegans and pro life folks see what "others" are doing as murder/evil. So naturally, since they view the behavior as absolutely inappropriate, their discussion of the topic is always very energetic.
I am not advocating for any dietary path, or abortion position in this comment. I'm only describing people's behavior. Do not misrepresent me.
Veganism is not a dietary choice it's a lifestyle choice. Diet is just a big part of it but not the whole thing.
Then what would we call someone who makes the dietary choice but none of the other lifestyle choices? How would they identify in a restaurant setting? The answer is "vegan". In the same way that I'm vegetarian but don't care if I wear leather shoes.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that English lacks the words that would let you be precise. We need a word for people who are vegan in diet, and don't care to bother the rest of the world about it. That's why OPs question keeps coming up.
Plant-based is the label for people who follow a vegan diet (plant-based diet) but not a vegan lifestyle like avoiding leather.
The answer is "plant-based diet"
I think plant-based is the diet choice and veganism is the lifestyle. I got corrected by someone who was plant based. They didn't want to associate with vegans
It's an issue of the loud ones standing out the most. I can easily say the same thing about many carnivores I know, who moan and complain if there's as much as a piece of corn in their meal.
(Though disclaimer, I'm not vegan)
I came here to say the thing that you said in better words. I'm on a diet for health reasons that closely resembles the vegan diet, so to keep it simple, I'll say to people that I'm vegan. Most wait staff don't care if I ask if a menu item can be made vegan, but family or people I'm dining with will either send hate vibes or go into a long thing about some distant vegan relative who died from malnutrition.
Yes, some people being pushy and judgemental is the real travesty. Not animals having their autonomy and lives taken. I didn't realize we were supposed to coddle people who we see partaking in grave abuses.
Speaking as a life-long lacto-ovo vegetarian who did a ten year stint as a vegan (I'm 30), it's because there is a subset of the vegan population that's very gung-ho about their diet and wants to proselytize about it, and no one likes being told what they should eat. When you remark on people's diets, people tend to get annoyed and defensive about it.
I grew up being told that my food looked yucky, how I can't call something meatballs since it doesn't contain meat, how since I don't eat protein I'll die, so on, so forth. It got annoying fast, so now I don't generally discuss my diet unless it makes a contextual sense. e.g. when planning a restaurant outing with people - though to be frank I often just avoid social situations where food plays a role.
I think where the big clashes really happen is when someone has made veganism/eating meat a core part of their identity, having that criticised, however gently that might be, will cause friction and often cause people to double-down on it; even though they may know on some level that the criticism might even be valid. You can see this in the fat pride movement as well.
Bingo!
It's the "identity" thing that fouls up so much today.
"You have to accept everything do because it's my identity".
Um, no, I don't have to "accept" anything about you. Nor do you have to "accept" anything about me. Hell, I figured this out when I was five. Fine, you don't like something about me? Then I won't waste my time with you. Thanks for making it clear.
The meat and dairy industries have been pumping out propaganda for years, mostly aimed at right-wing dudes. It's just kind of part of right-wing culture at this point to kneejerk react to veganism with tired old tropes and stereotypes.
It was worse back in the 90s and early 2000s.
Half of the beef in America is eaten by just 12% of the population, mainly men between 50-65.
Big if true!!! Can we get a link?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2023/oct/20/beef-usda-climate-crisis-meat-consumption
Sorry for the amp link,also it's not the study but a summary of said study
This is so frustrating. People saying "Oh I just don't like those self-righteous vegans". Thing is, it doesn't really matter what vegans say or how reasonable/logically sound it is, the knee-jerk reaction is always the same.
People don’t hate veganism as much as they don’t appreciate being judged for their choices and chastised by other adults for beliefs that they don’t share.
Personally I have no problem respecting the beliefs of people who are vegan due to their personal morals. Until they start disrespecting the beliefs of others who don’t agree with them with regards to meat, then they become annoying.
Eh, it's hard for me to respect someones beliefs when they use those beliefs to justify causing harm. And if someone believes that experiencing a good taste in their mouth justifies killing, I don't respect that at all
Everyone, the answer to the thread is right here.
I said this on another thread posted by a very antagonistic vegan: Acting holier-than-thou, smug, and hostile is not a good way to convince people of your arguments. It pushes people away and biases them against you and the argument you're making.
Far too often I see vegans outright shaming and harassing people for choosing to eat meat, or acting smug and superior because they are making "the right moral decision" and everyone else is lessor for thinking otherwise. I often see them call people "stupid" and "lazy" for not making the same choice they did.
Now, if I came here acting the same way, but I was championing eating only meat and shaming others for eating vegetables, I'm sure vegans would be upset for the same reason.
It's gotten bad enough that a lot of people (admittedly myself included) are put off by vegans and their arguments. Not because the arguments don't have merit (they certainly do) but because enough vegans have acted antagonistic or smug that they get shunned for it when the discussion gets brought up, because it's what has become expected.
If you really want people to listen to you, you need to frame it from a friendlier and more down-to-earth position and not come across as hostile. The human mind tends to close itself off immediately when faced with hostility. This doesn't just apply to discussions about veganism, but any discussion in general really.
I have absolutely encountered way more smug meat eaters than vegans or vegetarians... They go out of their way to make sexual jokes about forcing some sausage down people's throats, too.
And I have yet to encounter a single smug vegan. Not online, not offline.
But I've seen countless people like you fighting the just fight against vegan windmills (awesome Rügenwalder double reference for the German people here).
So where exactly are those vegans? Are they in the room with us right now? Or are you defining every mere mentioning of veganism as an attack because you deep down are afraid of actually having to confront the cognitive dissonance you're living under?
Thanks for your advice, but just to be sure it actually works, may I ask how many people you have convinced to go vegan?
Surely your advice is based on actual experience, right? You're not just saying this because you disagree with veganism and want vegans to phrase their arguments in a toothless and ineffective way, right?
As someone that has been Vegan before I assure its far far far far far far more common for it to be the other way around.
Because I sat at a table for an hour with a work colleague lecturing me on veganism. I couldn't care less if you don't lecture me.
Yeah I don't get it either. You do you 🤷🏼♂️
As long as people aren't trying to force their views on me (veganism, religion, what have you), I couldn't care less.
This is my experience as well. People don't hate vegans specifically, they hate evangelists generally.
There in lies the rub, though. Most vegans are vegan for a moral reason that they believe applies to you:
There are more fringe reasons for veganism such as: diet, health, etc. But those aren't relevant to the point I'm making.
"Live and let live" doesn't apply to situations where we're talking about global warming or the abuse of animals. Most vegans are trying to educate others and - yeah - they probably vote for things that would result in more expensive meat or less meat being available in your local markets. I believe most vegans are hoping their efforts will slow global warming and provide better living conditions for livestock.
I'm not trying to sit on a moral podium here and judge. I eat meat too. I'm not vegan. Though I've tried to reduce how much meat I eat in yet another small, feckless, civilian effort to slow global warming. All I'm saying is: I sympathize with people who want to improve the world and I understand why they spend time and effort talking about being vegan.
But meat in america is cheaper than the vegan stuff and definitely tastier. So it's hard for us to meaningfully change.
By vegan stuff do you mean things like meat replacements? My diet is mostly vegetarian, for the same reasons as you stated, and honestly I see zero appeal in things like Beyond products, but I also think they're totally unnecessary. When I've done Veganuary in the past, I tend to eat a lot of whole foods (tofu, legumes, beans, fruit and veg) and here in the UK that is cheaper than eating meat. But, I know the economic model for the US is quite different so I wouldn't be surprised if things like chicken were cheaper than tofu or Seitan
I was talking about meat replacements but I put tofu in that category as well because I don't have a lot of experience with tofu outside of "we have this instead of meat".
Vegan food is cheaper in America, for sure. Beans, veg (some) and rice are cheap. However fruit is expensive.
But the alternatives to meat are not cheap: tofu is like $5/lb compared to chicken which can be as low as $2.99/lb. Steak is expensive in America, but it can be close to the cost of tofu. It's definitely cheaper than the steak-alternatives like beyond meat.
While you might find meat replacements to be unnecessary, most Americans (myself included) struggle. 90% of the meals I used to eat were some variation of: protein (meat/chicken/fish), plus a veggie, plus a carb (rice/bread). That was the basic dinner. It has a nice ratio of protein to carb. It was tasty (to me at least) and the cost wasn't too bad.
I'm guessing I'm not alone, culturally. It's not like you can fry up two slabs of tofu and just call it a day. Tofu is just different. It doesn't cook the same and it doesn't taste the same. I cook tofu at least once a week, but I treat it very differently.
It's just not easy for Americans to justify going vegan. It's culturally very different and - if you want to stay within the culture - it's expensive.
But that's why I always advocate for meat reduction, not replacement. Eat more vegetables. Try other dinners. Etc. But most Americans are remiss to be told what to do.
That's interesting, I suppose meat being so culturally important would definitely make substitutes feel essential, and if they're so much more expensive veganism can quickly feel like a privileged stance
Usually it’s not veganism, itself. Rather, it’s the vegans.
Specifically the annoyingly loud, self-righteous, insists-everyone-must-join-them vegans.
Unfortunately, most people only really see this sort of vegan- rather than the more common, average sort of person who happens to also be vegan.
On this note, I'd like to point to the Loud Minority problem; You have XYZ group, and within XYZ group there exists a minority that comes across as very "loud". You can barely miss them, and because they state they're a part of XYZ group, you start associating that group with the loud minority.
Happens with Vegans a lot, and usually people which have already associated a group with a minority within said group which annoys them do not want to learn that they are wrong, or will just refuse to accept they are wrong.
I do think they are annoying but a necessary type of annoying that will help humanity progress. The same type of annoying as people who claimed women had rights and African Americans were not inferior.
Humans treat this planet like shit, we have zero respect for living beings and the ecosystems. Anyone who gets angry if someone calls them out for supporting animal abuse is just immature and selfish. Like they'll just deny they are doing something wrong.
I'll probably never stop eating meat until stuff like Beyond Meat becomes mainstream. But I won't pretend I'm not a straight up asshole to these animals for supporting their torture and murder. The times I've been called out I've embraced it instead of denying the obvious.
In 150 years humans will look back in shame at what we did to those animals.
It’s part of a shifting norm and shifting norms are always controversial. Especially norms that involve opening up bodily autonomy, dignity, or respect to previously excluded groups.
💯💯💯
My personal experience has actually been quite whew opposite of everyone here apparently. Of the 3 vegans I've spent time with, not one of them has ever brought it up to preach or to sound smug. It only ever comes up because I ask for a recipe they served and they say something along the lines of "now, this is a vegan recipe, but you should be able to substitute 'x' with 'y' if you wanna avoid that." It's never preachy, it's always in the "don't let this being vegan ruin it for you" kind of way.
My low stakes conspiracy is that vegan hate on the internet is like people that don't like the word moist. They either watched friends and decided to adopt that as a personality trait, or they look up to someone that did just that. They hate veganism because they watched a comedian quip about it and agreed or they saw someone that watched a comedian and agreed. It's all too consistent to not be feeding from the same bowl.
Yeah. I think 90% of these guys complaining about militant vegans have never actually come across one. But have heard sotries about them from other people or the news and just assimilated that as part of their own experience. Much in the same way racists here stories about how bad immigrrants are from newpapers and use that to form their opinions.
People like to characterize those they already want to disagree with by the worst, most extreme examples of the group. So before even considering the benefits/drawbacks of veganism, people have already chosen their position after thinking "vegans are just so preachy and annoying".
It's putting outrage before reason, and it's really common in social media and news:
Think about how Fox News viewers picture liberals as the least coherent, unreasonable individuals that they see get interviewed, when in reality most are just normal people.
Or the reverse: how people in liberal circles might see conservatives depicted as Maga-hat wearing weirdos who think 5G is killing them.
Same with how many religious people evaluate atheism or atheists think of religion by their worst representatives.
In short, I think the answer is that it's a symptom of tribalism and identity-politics.
I don’t hate people who are vegans.
I do hate the person who righteously yelled at me about eating meat while I was eating her vegan food at her house which she invited me to. And then proceeded to send me Facebook farm videos that were obviously staged. I worked on a farm… so when I corrected her what actually does happen on a farm Vs what these idiots were staging to get reactions, it was even more disgusting to me that she wasn’t doing any of this for the animals as she claimed but doing it so she could feel important. So she can fuck right off up a mountain.
So no:I don’t hate people who are vegans. I hate self involved, insincere shitheads.
That said yeah, we need to address commercial farming. It’s an issue. We need to cut down the meat products that are getting produced and stop creating diets that get capitalists richer. But also we need to be honest with what is actually happening. No, they do not give hormones to animals on farms. That practice was discontinued prior to the 1990s. We need to out assholes who spread this bullshit online, dampening the real issues as to why introducing more plant based food is necessary. We also have to keep plant based food healthy and not just inject it with sugar ,salt and fat creating the same health issues we had with consuming commercialized meat.
Also I think this is why vegan is a ruined word and why ‘plant-based’ is now becoming a substitute. To replace this damage that many of the self called vegans did that were just as much lying and cheating as the industry they so much hate. two wrongs do not make a right. So I’m all about the pivot away from that dumpster fire
I'm an ex vegan (about 5 years) so I've been on both sides if it. Here's my opinion.
When I was a vegan it was very much a part of my identity. It was something that I thought about 2-3 times (at least) per day when I ate, and any time I went to buy food. I remember being actually insufferable about it for a long time and I'm pretty sure I've lost friends over it, being annoying and preach to a friend's husband and then eventually just not getting invited back for game night. So people are definitely feeling burned/rejected/otherized by vegans who, if not just coming right out and saying it, strongly infer that you are a "bad person" for consuming even small amounts of animal products, or at least let you know that you're being judged for it. As an ex-vegan I've experienced this myself.
On the other hand, non-vegans are also insufferable about food. My friend in college didn't like cheese. Hated how it tasted, hated the way it felt in his mouth. But he loved pizza. He would often buy pizzas for everyone, with cheese on, pick the cheese off himself, and eat it without. I swear that every time he did this someone would say something about it, "what? You don't like cheese? Why?!" I personally had to endure a lot of weird questions and looks, and comments when after volunteering for a whole day at a baseball field for my son's team, and they served pizza after which I just refused. I just quietly didn't get myself any, and people had like 20 questions about it. I didn't even bring up that I was a vegan, I just said I wasn't hungry, which was odd and apparently unacceptable.
Vegans and vegetarians also get judged for their diets, there are plenty of non-v people who will become like preemptively defensive about it, and let you know they think you're weak and unhealthy. You get otherized and judged, even if you dont care what people eat and you just patiently say that its a personal choice, for health or the environment or whatever. This actually deepens the in-group acceptance/out-group rejection of everyone involved. The next time a vegan has to hear about their choices they'll be less patient with the person asking; the next time that person eats an egg around a vegan and gets lectured, they'll be less patient and around and around it goes.
I have theories about why this is, some of which maybe are apparent from what I've written. I think people do construct identities around consumer behavior, and they feel rejected when someone doesn't share those same consumptive habits which they take for granted. I'll get into it if anyone gives a shit.
But I think theres a problem with public discourse that encourages this kind of ingroup/outgroup good/bad acceptance/rejection, so much that it is implied in all discourse whether a vegan or not. This is the thing that drove me away from veganism: I think that vegans are right about a lot of things, but they can't actually see the world for what it is, they can mostly only see through this lens. This is basically the same problem with liberals, conservatives, religious, atheist, whatever. Its the cult of the individual having eroded any experience of interconnectedness, even though we are interconnected. As such, people can't see the world for what it really is, we can only see it from behind the fences of our specific camp.
Very well put, and agreed on all points, especially the bit about how this sort of in-group/out-group behavior is not limited to food. Veganism/food opinions in general are particularly clear examples of it in action though.
I forget where I first heard this, so unfortunately I can't give proper credit, but I once heard that we'd all get along better if people learned to say "that's not for me" instead of "that's disgusting", and it's really stuck with me. Like who cares if someone doesn't like cheese on their pizza? Picking it off is hurting no one. It's a food preference, it's not that serious. Let people enjoy things the way they want to enjoy things. If it isn't immoral or harmful, let people be. People doing things differently from you is not grounds for you to question or ridicule. Have some empathy, have some respect, have some semblance of open-mindedness, and let people live their lives, man
Right, I agree, have empathy and respect, open mindedness. But without getting into it too deep, you know how do I empathize or respect others when often we don't empathize or respect ourselves? It's this involuntary and constant process of turning out and externalizing. Please don't consider this a call out, just an illustration because I know you don't mean it this way, but by the end of your thought process you are like out grouping some imagined person who is doing this thing, creating an in group between you and I, and others who still behave this way. And I can be as cognizant as I want about this, but I also commit to these groups, and I have recent examples of this toward ideological groups I encounter in my political organizing. People who I used to not have a problem with, I now am extremely suspect of, because this was done to me. Its like baked into our language, or the ways in which we derive meaning. And maybe to some extent its unavoidable, or at least will be until some severe cultural shift happens that changes our ontology and language.
But many people have noticed, from all walks of life, you will hear, "we have never been more divided." And yeah sometimes you hear this from people who probably don't have our best interests at heart. But this campism has only increased since, idk, Trump? COVID? The neoliberal turn of the late 70s early 80s? Who can say. But if that's true, and this phenomenon has increased over time, then maybe it can decrease as well. I hope so. There's a lot of changes that need to happen to society, and quickly, but without that respect and empathy you talk about, I worry about what might happen to people. This out grouping can quickly turn into dehumanization and worse if not checked. And I don't know what to do there except at least try and model that behavior and try and discuss it when I can.
You tend to get two groups who dislike it. Ignorant folks who think something like no animal stuff means no protein means you shrivel up and die, and the ones who've encountered a few too many militants in their time and ain't interested or are downright sick of their schtick. Vaguely similar to atheism, except replace the animal product stuff with something religion related, ofc.
People don't like to be made to feel uncomfortable (via knowledge) about something that they enjoy
People don’t like to be made to feel uncomfortable (via preaching) about something they enjoy.
Fixed that for you.
Hate is a strong word, but as a meatatarian, passionate vegans don’t make me feel uncomfortable “with knowledge,”but some can be incredibly annoying with the way they go about voicing their opinions. It’s not because of the “truth hurts” or “truth is uncomfortable” angle that you’re smugly going for, but because some are like the Karens and SJW’s of the diet world.
And before I’m accused of generalizing vegans, note I said SOME. I also feel the same way about anyone else who is overly-passionate to the point of “my way or the highway.” Like some who are on keto. Yikes.
But this whole thread is about the general dislike of vegans and veganism. So you didn't "correct" them, because you narrowed it down to only talking about people who are too preachy.
I would suggest that the entire premise of this post is invalid then, as it begs the question. First, prove to me that there is a general dislike of all vegans/veganism. I'd be willing to bet it's a LOT more "dislike of preachy/smug vegans."
My ex was vegan. While I have absolutely no problem with the practice of being vegan, she would critique and criticize nearly everything I ate. It was extremely exhausting. Nothing against vegans personally however some of them won't shut up about it and try to make you feel bad
Because the only way most people interact with vegans is through activists using it as a bludgeon to project hate towards them.
No, that’s the only way most people KNOW that they are.
The most common is probably passing them in the halls at work, knowing nothing about their dietary choices.
Edit: Autocorrect
It's not the diet or anything that bothers me; it's the vegans themselves. They're basically religious zealots but for food. If a meat eating atheist went around yelling at vegetarians and theists in unrelated discussions, I'd hate them too.
Defensiveness
Do-gooder derogation
Vegans are like Arch Linux users:
They make sure you know they are vegans.
I have never, ever, heard someone in real life bring up veganism unless it was specifically in the context of what they eat.
The problem is, it comes up. Food is a very foundational element of social life. Sharing a meal is important, providing a meal as a host is important, and supplying food at events is customary.
Rejecting the offer to put something in their body is misunderstood as an insult.
I think it’s guilt actually. Most people deep down kind of know that eating meat is wrong, but if the whole world does it, you can’t be blamed cause you have no choice.
And then there comes someone who is not participating. Their existence breaks the logic above and implies that it’s a personal responsibility.
I think you're pretty out of touch with how most folks experience eating meat. I don't say this as a personal attack, but I think the emotional experience you're ascribing to folks who do eat meat is inaccurate
I mean, I eat meat and I know it’s wrong but it’s hard since everything is meat centric.
My response is just my personal take on the situations based on seeing how people reacted to my veggie sibling.
I think thats fair, but I don't get the impression most folks who eat meat consider it wrong at all, never mind in such a black and white way. I have a lot of respect for vegan ethics and even I have mixed feelings on whether I consider it explicitly wrong or immoral
There’s a ton of vegans who exist without trying to force their way of life on everyone, but the ones who do dominate the conversation and can be off putting.
Just like with everything else that people make into a lifestyle or part of their identity. Most are cool, but there's always a vocal minority of dillweeds that take it way too seriously or use it to judge others that aren't part of their pack.
It challenges something people have been indoctrinated with and causes them to question their moral character.
This is pretty much why people get mad and argue, along with many other posts from vegans in this thread. The very obvious disrespect and talking down to, insults, accusations of being bad people.
I think part of the issue is people tend to conflate "does something immoral/less moral than an alternative" and "is a bad person".
I think most meat eaters would acknowledge that meat is inherently worse for the environment, and also less moral due to more animal suffering, than not eating meat. Doing so does not make them bad people, just like owning an iPhone doesn't make someone a bad person, etc. And yet when the topic of "meat is immoral " comes up, people very quickly seem to think it is an accusation of them being a bad person?
Its because they ran into the loudest, most annoying vegans.
IDK how, maybe different areas have more militant vegans, or maybe they just roll with negative stereotypes and the algorithm bs that lets the worst folks float to the top of their media feeds.
I've actively sought out vegans because they have great advice on dietary restriction resources and as long as you're respectful of their choices, they've been consistently so willing to share.
And they also really love a good breakfast, in my experience, like the local vegan group has just pages of discussion on good vegan donut resources.
Cuz it itches the part of our brain that looks for status-seeking behavior and labels people as inauthentic.
Being vegetarian places a degree of exclusivity onto your consumer habits, and in the Western capitalist lens, conspicuous consumption has a lot to do with how we communicate our status.
Being vegan stands in direct relationship to vegetarianism as being even more exclusive. This does two things:
Just that in and of itself puts vegans on the receiving end of a whole bunch of cognitive biases.
But wait, there's more!
Because mass production never lets a social identity go to waste, major brands got on board with explicitly labeling things as vegan, which starts to make it seem like you're trying to be cool but really just deepthroating the corporate cock to "buy your way to cool".
And then came the trends of organic/non-GMO, local-first, artisanal, farm-to-table, etc. etc.
At the point where Wal-Mart has their own artisanal farm-to-table cheese brand, it starts to look (to our dumb pattern-matching brains) like vegans are just rubes falling for the most basic version of an obviously fake status-seeking game propped up by cynical brands preying on how desperate you are to look cool.
But wait, there's even more!
Because, surprise -- our brains never actually stop caring about status, even if we think we're just trying to make rational, objective, moral choices. Picturing yourself as a rebel for being vegan, taking the sneers and the insults in stride because you know it's the right choice for the planet... is appealing.
And that self-aggrandizing image is inseparable from actually doing the thing, because that's just how our brains work. Even for the most pure-hearted among us, thinking we're morally superior -- especially in tangible ways that we get to physically play out on a daily basis -- is intoxicating.
So the people who are chuckling about the inauthenticity are... kind of right. But this same dynamic exists for literally everything. So when you chuckle at the vegan, but then take a moment to consider which kind of bacon really speaks to who you are as a consumer, you're playing the same game. It's just one that far more people are invested into. So if anyone calls it silly, nobody takes that criticism seriously. Not like your organic local-first artisanal acai kale kombutcha.
--
Basically my recollection of this episode of You Are Not So Smart: https://soundcloud.com/youarenotsosmart/selling-out-andrew-potter
...which I listened to, for the first time, as an attempt at bonding with my then-girlfriend/now-wife's roommate. We had not gotten along up until then, because she was aggressively vegan and I ate a lot of fast food. But I found out she liked podcasts and I was really enjoying this one and there was a new episode I hadn't heard yet! She really enjoyed it, until the guest talked about veganism as a form of status-seeking. That didn't go well. I didn't mind taking over her half of the lease though.
Had to do a double take on this.
I guess I’m lucky I’ve never personally known anyone to preach about their diet.
For someone like myself, this all sounds overblown and just a meme/trope you see in movies and TV.
Look at almost any thread with similar comments it's mostly people saying how much they love meat vs. anyone saying anything about them being vegan. Vegans politely mention their diet in real life more than other people because it limits the places you can go out to eat, and they don't want to make things awkward. They don't want to show up to your house and refuse to eat the steak you cooked since they didn't mention it beforehand or reject the leather boots you bought them for their birthday. It's better to be upfront about it and people take offensive to this.
I don't hate veganism.
I just don't like the militant and pompous attitude that some vegans seem to possess, that they feel that they have to flaunt their vegan lifestyles on others over.
Yes, go eat as many vegetables as you like, go eat meat alternatives and whatever. You do you, eat what you want. But I don't want to ever have someone like that coming up to my face and tell me what I'm allowed to eat in their eyes.
I've seen more aggression about food choices from meat lovers.
So, here's the thing.
Regardless of a hundred different ethical and meta-ethical theories that people espouse, what everyone actually reacts to with outrage is plausibly-generalised threat perception.
If someone's actions are directly threatening you, you'll feel anger and/or fear.
If someone's actions don't affect you or yours, but :stuff like that: being commonplace definitely would, then you will feel outrage.
If I kill people and take their stuff, you'll be very upset: you're a people, and you like stuff - and if we let the general case happen, the specifics could come bite you in the ass soon enough.
If I kill and eat animals, most people don't consider it plausibly worrying that they or little Timmy will be next. We have great big enormous taboos against eating people, so that slope just don't slip - and as a result they just don't have a problem with it.
(If I go and torment animals for lulz, then that's a very different case; people who are cruel to animals are often even worse to people, after all - and so people see that as monstrous. And again, if you want to manufacture consent for some atrociy, the easiest way is to reclassify the victims as qualitatively different. Oh good lord no, we're not killing people and taking their stuff, that would be awful. Nonono, we're killing :group: and taking their stuff, totally different proposition...)
So when vegans are horrified at people killing and eating (or breeding and milking, or whatever) animals, and go to great lengths to try and elicit that same outrage, there's a disconnect and dissonance going on. The non-vegans don't have the emotional trigger of perceived threat, so to have them keep trying regardless is seen as pearl-clutching and sleeve-tugging, like making up a sad story and loudly demanding that everyone weep about it on the spot. It's uniquely annoying. And when you combine that with (perceived) moral superiority and a hypercritical attitude, it comes across as something like a Karen with BPD. It's calling red on someone else's scene; everyone is supposed to cater to the vegan's emotional distress when there's no corresponding emotion in themselves, and honestly that just provokes people to schoolyard bullying.
That's at the core of it, I think. There's a bunch of other annoyances around it, but I think they're mostly after the fact.
Honestly if you want to make people feel that general existential threat, frame it in terms of ecological damage. Animal agriculture is horribly unsustainable and causes huge enviromnental problems, not least of which are are a truly gigantic carbon footprint. Pushing that angle would actually stand a chance of being effective, tbh. But annoyingly (from the outside), it seems that the most vocal vegans don't want people to be outraged on that basis, they want them to be outraged for the poor little lambikins, and will settle for no less. I can see their point, and I can be a stubborn bastard myself about not settling, but jesus fuck it's annoying.
Not a vegan, though I've been mostly-veggie for the last couple of years for health reasons. It's interesting how it shapes your perceptions; eating meat doesn't seem wrong to me, but it has started seeming weirdly excessive and uncreative.
To preface this all, I'm not a vegan but I support the cause. However on the west coast of Canada, a lot of shitty people use veganism as social camouflage to cover for their moral failings in other areas. I just don't trust anyone that trumpets their veganism. Just like I don't trust the overtly religious.
My list..
Sometimes they'll offer their opinions as "proof" that they're "right"
It's expensive, so often vegans are people with resources others don't have and yet they act like this isn't a thing
They're right that it's way better for the environment and it annoys me that I'm contradicting my own values on that point
There's an abuse of science at times, which always bothers me, even in the name of a good cause. If you're right, let the truth do the talking.
Just off the top of my head...
Not all vegans, etc... no actual hate involved for anyone
Some vegans make the argument that it's not more expensive, and fresh ingredients are pretty cheap. This ignores the time it takes to actually make dishes with fresh ingredients. A lot of people that are less well off don't have the time to spare.
I agree. It doesn't cost a lot to buy lentils and make dal, but it takes time.
The problem is really our entire food system is geared towards profit and the excessive suffering that comes from that. If you want to eat meat a little more ethically...you have to spend more or have the time to raise animals yourself.
Vegans vs meat-eaters is distraction from humans vs industrialized food. Vegans are correct about the suffering of animals, but those that focus on preaching to convert would find their time best spent being compassionate to those that can't make changes.
Some small changes include:
I mean to do it all at once is not easy. Making small changes over time can improve health and save money. Thinking about the suffering of the animals can be detrimental, because you may associate making vegan choices with thoughts of animal suffering. I used to subscribe to a vegan magazine, but half of it was amazing recipes, and the other half was distressing animal stories.
mushy peas (use margarine or olive oil instead of butter)
mushroom "forcemeat" and other substitutes
dal recipe
You're not a terrible human if you eat meat! It's not easy to change, but doing a little bit can go a long way. See if you can cut it down ❤
Imagine that you go to an outdoor barbecue on a bright Summer day.
And some guy who is an extreme Muslim is going around telling some women that they're not dressed in a modest enough way and that everybody should follow the Teachings of the Prophet and how life is a lot better when people follow the Teachings of the Prophet.
It's not Islam that's the problem, it's certain kinds of people, their proselytising and, worse, their trying to force or even impose their own moral values on others.
Same with Veganism and some kinds of Vegans: because it's a moral choice some of those who practice it have the very same behavioural disfunctions as religious nutters and because they're the most visible representatives of it they just cause many to draw negative conclusions about the entire thing.
The problem is: most times it works the other way. You are at a barbeque and bring your own stuff. There are always people who feel obliged to talk shit about you – or worse, cannot shut up about their own meat consumption, how they only buy the „good“ meat and only seldom, but how hard it would be without cheese and so on.
Yeah, there are some preaching vegans, but those few are not the reason why some people are hating on us.
I'm married to a vegetarian that used to be vegan. They saw far, far more preaching vegans than not. Many vegans believe that militancy is required, in the same way that anti-abortion activists believe that mobbing women at clinics is the only moral choice.
I don't think many people truly hate veganism, they are just frustrated by a few of the louder vegans out there.
For example, some vegans are very judgy - they will unabashedly tell non-vegans that eating meat is morally reprehensible. They also often want you to watch brutal videos of animal abuse and slaughter, with the overt overtone being an accusation of "you are doing this. It's your fault if you eat meat."
I'm not sure how any person who isn't vegan could possibly see that as anything but unwelcome. Life is hard enough without this sort of thing.
This said, I know plenty of vegans that never do this. I think it's awesome that they can avoid meat, and I applaud and support alternatives like impossible and beyond.
Vegetarian here (I like cheese, sue me)
Just wanted to point out a reason not listed:
Look at the people posting succinct points in here without attacking. Then go look at the downvoters, and follow them back to the vegan magazines where they're rather caustic, to put the least. Not everyone likes being compared to nazis when we're just existing in the same food chain as every other animal, carnivore or no.
Because the idea that there are vegans and vegetarians is an implied accusation of guilt to people that eat meat and animal products that are the direct result of animal suffering. Some people that don't eat animal products might be militant or preachy, but I've never met one. In fact I have only ever met the inverse, people that constantly berate people for being vegan or vegetarian. Having been one myself, I can say that for me and people I know it is the same reason religious people hate atheists; their existence implies that people that eat meat are wrong and therefore bad people. Studies have confirmed this. Here is an article from the BBC that goes over some of the studies.
100% it's just cognative dissonance. Everyone knows meat is bad but most can't come to terms that they're too weak to quit it. This is especially painful when people are confronted directly and a self-defence mechanism kicks in.
It's ok to be a bit weak sometimes, everyone has a lot of going and has to choose their battles. Our contemporary culture hates to acknowledge this thus creating a lot of binary tension.
I'm not against vegans, but where the hell did you read that meat is bad? You can have an opinion, but that's just not a fact. Period.
If you go and tell people they are "weak" and they "100% just have cognitive dissonance" for not accepting a hot take as a fact, how do you expect anything but people confronting you? You can't expect civilized discussions if you literally open by disrespecting the other party and dismissing anything they might argue ;-;
I mean, the meat industry is factually bad for the environment at its current scale. That's not really in dispute, is it?
It was an abrasive statement, but as a vegetarian who still loves cheese and eggs, there is a lot of truth in it. Much US large-scale farming harms the animals, workers, and environment. The animal feed land could be used for crops. Eating primarily meat and little else is not nutritionally complete. Large swaths of the rainforest are cut down to raise beef cattle. End of the day you are unnecessarily killing an innocent creature because it tastes good. People don't want to hear these things, they want a bacon double double. They want waygu. That's the cognitive dissonance that makes people mad. Again, I eat eggs that aren't always ethically sourced and who knows about my delicious cheese, but I'm not getting up in arms trying to claim I'm still a great person when I'm wrist deep in queso.
Thanks, this is what i was talking about. I think i eat a healthy amount of meat, mostly white ones because of health and because istg chickens in specific have no souls. Most argumens you used can actually be outweighed by "i just like meat a lot", which is fine, but they are still relevant to choose what meat. I mean compare, in terms of ethics, health, sustainability, and even taste a McDonald's and a halal butcher shop.
What i try to say is that respect is just as important, if not more, than ethics; and you need both along with a little bit of reading to get a balanced point of view.
...Biggest problem is I'm broke af and bad meat is cheaper than good meat and no meat, ethics are a luxury not everyone can afford 🥲
Yeah see here you go. Response to "meat is bad" is "meat is fucking awesome."
Evidence for meat is bad: I mean just drive by a factory farm. Look at any of the standard practices of the industry. Objectively horrific by any standard.
Evidence for meat is awesome: bro check out this sick bacon weave. Guy Fieri. Etc. all of it divorced completely from the process, and acknowledging meat only as an industrial product that comes packaged as a block or cylinder.
It's an absurd argument. Nobody is arguing that meat isn't delicious. We're saying that everything about its production is awful.
The hell are you talking about? Meat is awesome, probably one of the best things to exist.
they hate vegan preacher. how do vegan promote their ideas? by saying meat eater are murderer. by calling people meat eater. meat bad. 🤷🏻♂️
But I mean, that's literally what their ideas are, how else should they promote them? Are you mad that they aren't just pretending that meat is good, for the benefit of the listeners?
Because brains are wired to avoid 1) changes to habits and 2) admission of wrongdoing. Encountering a vegan makes the brain start running cover and looking for ways to discredit arguments. Often, the mental framework for dismissing "uppity" advocates already exists. There's also the force of money and industry propaganda which should be acknowledged, but in my experience people are more than capable of coming up with justifications on their own.
It's very difficult to overcome these psychological forces, but simply making the switch can remove a lot of cognitive dissonance and expose certain BS arguments for what they are.
It takes a "special" kind of person to take something so ingrained in culture and still say "I'm not gonna do that," usually a slightly crazy and/or neurodivergent person. I think this is partly why there are so many "insane" vegans, because it's self selecting for people who are outside the norm.
I don't even mention to most people I'm vegan, usually just an excuse like "meat makes me feel sick" because the average person will think I'm going to give them a 20 minute lecture.
To anyone who is the vegan who will give the 20 minute lecture, please consider if your goal is actually animal welfare, you can hardly ever debate someone out of something they like. Instead, just show people easy dishes you made that they actually enjoy (pasta with spaghetti sauce, French fries, vegetable stir fry, roasted veggies with olive oil) and you'll often find they start cooking more vegan food (or at least less meat), and also talk more positively about veganism
I don't see many people hating veganism. I see a lot of people hating vegans pushing their ideology when it wasn't asked for. The simple truth is that every person has different ideologies, beliefs, priorities, and ethical systems, and what makes perfect sense to one person sounds over-prohibitive, and any attempt at dialogue to find a middle ground ends with a bunch of moral posturing.
I think people hate vegans more than veganism. The most annoying x% makes the other (100-x)% look bad
Choose your own x I don't want dunks from either side lol
It's not veganism we hate, it's the stereotypical preachy vegans, acting like farming is the equivalent of the holocaust.
You don't tell me what to eat, I won't tell you what to eat, everyone's a winner.
"do-gooder derogation"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do-gooder_derogation
Riiiight up until the Earth becomes uninhabitable for humans because we're doing shit like destroying the Amazon rainforest for more cattle farmland, but sure!
Let's hope the sea level will go up so much to kill us all before that /s
Obviously there's the stereotype and that is what it is, but I usually get irked at the suggestion that it's easy and an imperative. Veganism and other similar diets are an EXTREME luxury, and is only a viable option for a small percentage of the population. It would never have been an option in the past and is still not remotely an option for most humans.
edit: see below comments to understand what I mean
lmfao people have been vegan thousands of years ago e.g. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ma%27arri
beans and rice are poverty foods, not luxury. Meat is a luxury food.
I think the fact that the Wikipedia article you linked describes this guy as one of the biggest assholes of all time says a lot
I became a vegan at a time in my life where I was close to being homeless. It might be hard for some people to switch to a plan based diet (veganism is more than a diet) depending on their access to a grocery store or food bank or people who can't choose what they consume such as children, but it is definitely not a luxury.
no one hates veganism, we just hate the vegans
For me it's the high-horse holier than thou attitude most of them seem to carry in online conversations. I know a fee vegans and they are mostly fine in person after the first few months of radicalization, but I imagine they just suppress it in person to maintain the acquaintanceship and then bitch in their vegan echo chambers about how "my co-worker who knows I'm vegan had the audacity to order a hamburger and eat it in front of me knowing I'm vegan, does he know he's destroying the world with that Burger... AITA?"
If you're looking for scientific answers, good luck they, Inrhjnjbmost people stop worrying about micromanaging people after a few years of academia.
Seems like most people on this post have fallen into the trap of judging a group based on a loud subset of the group. Most vegans/vegetarians I know don’t like to share that they are veg precisely because of that stereotype.
I do not like being told by someone that i need to become vegan because they have become vegan.
There is a push from the meat industry to make hating veganism the cool thing is what I feel is going on. Some militant vegans are honestly annoying.
Because appx 1% of vegans are straight up obnoxious and indignant. And a similar percentage of meat eaters are also.
Then everyone else just mildly gravitates to tribalism but probably doesn't actually care that much.
I don't mind vegans, or that lifestyle, at all. What I do mind is people who are overtly (and possibly aggressive) in presenting a lifestyle that the feel is "right". Unfortunately there's a stereo type with vegans being that way.
Veganism is a big lifestyle choice and the difference to vegetarian is the avoidance of near all animal products if and when possible. Not just in regards to eating meat, but things like a leather wallet too.
Someone has to be careful and on top of their diet and dietary needs to be vegan and properly nourished (even omnivorous people are subject to this malnutrition mind you).
I have some personal differences in views to vegans in regards to the consumption of meat, but rather similar views in how it's obtained. I do think generally the mass production and lifestyle is not morally correct for the animals. However I would also say humans are naturally omnivorous and eating meat is something that not only is built into our diet but what gave us a fundamental evolutionary advantages.
Animals eat animals and humans are animals. Though if we are sentient enough and empathetic enough creatures we should at least provide a decent life for the animals and utilize all we can so as not so waste them.
I respect your viewpoint, but I wanted to point out that I think the argument of "animals do X, therefore it's ok" isn't a really good one, imo. In fact I think one of the features of being human is being able to rise above what other animals do, when we think it is a good idea. (Whether it's a good idea here though, is another topic)
No body hates veganism as a concept in and of itself. People dislike vegans that think they're better than everyone else because they eat no animal product.
There's definitely animosity toward veganism as a concept itself. The types who use the term "soyboy" and boomers who consider eating lots of red meat some kind of manly recreational pastime.
That’s definitely not true. Just yesterday I was eating a salad (with chicken and bacon and cheese even) and I had an older coworker pass by and grumpily tell me he didn’t eat rabbit food.
Funny is that I have only seen Anti Vegan threads on here. Like, who is the annoying one?
Half my social circle has gone vegan at this point and I think a lot of the anti-vegan sentiments is people don't like modifying their behaviour to give up their own comfort even when they know something is distressing to someone else. Since a lot of vegans see a very real cruelty that they are generally powerless to stop and other people do not understand their reactions to seeing other people participate in cruelty is often to feel very sad. Since so much of human culture surrounds shared meals having a vegan takes a lot of options off the table entirely and alters other people's options even when they don't intend to.
Like it's not a matter of "well we'll go to your vegetarian restaurant this time and next time we go to a place I'm excited to go" for those of us who care about our friends being upset we basically rarely pick our first choices and more often sacrifice things we are excited for in the name of someone else's comfort. It can be a love language to find restaurants and eat the things on the menu that don't exactly thrill you but other times you just want to have that selfish Birthday dinner where you don't feel compelled to pick a restaurant for someone else.
I think a lot of people reject veganism more forcefully because they don't want to have to participate in that sort of friction. All it takes is one ethical vegan to completly change a friend groups food culture. Even when they bring their own food and try not to make a big deal and mask it not bothering them when they see meat being consumed people are generally compelled to care for people they know and ignoring someone's distress isn't showing care. When people ratchet up the social cost of veganism they are more often than not trying to engineer a social sphere where they do not feel callous, don't have to give up what they like and don't have to do any additional research work or social calculations .
Well it's like the old joke says,
Q: how do you know someone's a vegan?
A: OH, THEY'LL TELL YOU.
Seriously tho I don't have a problem with them unless they start saying there's no difference betwern killing an animal and torturing it.
It's the fandom mostly. I like using Linux but I don't think you are immoral for using windows. Rick and Morty is funny but I don't think Rick is someone to take any advice from. CrossFit seems to work for most people who stick with it but it is one of many options. I won't apologize for being an atheist but I don't think you are stupid for not being one.
The problem with Veganism is the problem with monotheism. There is one proper way to live and all the others are wrong and awful.
That and the lying. I won't deny that there are farmers who abuse their animals, that is a problem that can be dealt with through the legal system, but you can't sell me a sack of lies claiming that I abused the cows I milked growing up. Because I know I didn't.
I personally don’t care if people want to be vegan and sometimes I’ll eat vegan food. For me though, on the whole, I find vegan food unappealing. It usually involves compromises and doesn’t taste that great.
Additionally, I did eat in a house of vegetarians for about 10 months once. I ate meat outside the house on occasion, but mostly ate vegetarian. It was really hard on my stomach. After meals, I would usually have crazy gas. It did improve over time, but always was an issue for me.
For these reasons, I don’t prefer veganism or vegetarianism. It’s okay if you do though.
Edit: for vegans wondering why they’re hated, I think the downvotes to this comment summarize it. Above I’ve expressed a view perfectly tolerant of veganism. I’ve even tried some of it myself, but don’t find it appealing. Rather than just accept that someone else has a different dietary preference than you, you shit on them. If you want to be tolerated, be tolerant.
Because it's the easiest way to avoid having to consider changing opinions and behaviors
I have no issues with veganism but I do have issues with being attacked because I'm not vegan. I've been attacked for using cow milk even after explaining that I can't use plant milk because of sensory issues.
Funnily enough, just like you said, I know vegans IRL who would never behave that way and of course I accommodate their dietary choices when I'm in charge of food.
I think it's mostly an Internet thing when you just see the loudest minority instead of the more quiet majority.
My personal experience: Trying to find a restaurant that has vegan friendly options isn't always easy, and used to be much harder. That would make trying to find somewhere to eat as a group much more tedious if someone was vegan. I don't think anyone had issue with the person being a vegan, I think they just didn't like eating at the same two restaurants over and over.
You could do what I do and just don't eat when you go out. I did the same before I went vegetarian. Food is fucking stupid I'd rather just hang out and tell jokes.
You can also cheat. Reducing your meat intake some is better than nothing.
No one likes being criticized and labeled a monster by an ignorant prick. They way too frequently act like every egg comes from a half zombie chicken that's kept in a little box and tortured just for fun, or that a cow couldn't possibly end up in a cheeseburger after living its best life. Factory farming is bad for lots of reasons, but it's not characteristic of the entire industry.
If you want to eat meat or dairy or whatever, sure go ahead. But don't expect it not coming from factory farms, because it's likely not.
TIL the eggs from my backyard chickens might be from a factory farm
What percentage of meat and dairy comes from non-factory farms and how many people are actually buying from those places? If factory farms produce something like 95% of the meat sold, can we then call it characteristic of the industry?
People don’t like to have deeply held beliefs challenged and even less so like to be told they are a bad person for eating certain types of food.
I can't stand the proselytizing powered by privilege on so many planes. Whether it's cost, availability, or time, people have many reasons for being mUrDeReRs. Nobody likes being condescended over things that are barely in their control as it is.
I have nothing against veganism as a dietary decision, I'm actually seriously considering it for health reasons and for easier food preparation.
I am sick of veganism as a moral high horse, especially with hypocrisy in the background. I have a friend constantly ordering stuff, including vegan ingredients, from Amazon of all places. If he's going to low-key admonish me for hurting animals, I'd expect him to care about the Amazon warehouse employees to a similar degree. Unless it's all just posturing.
I can only speak for myself, but not eating meat is not something that’s offensive. Nothing about veganism as a diet is offensive or in need of being critical of.
It’s the reputation of them being insufferable and obnoxious. It’s their need to inject their diet into discussions that aren’t about them, or their diets. It’s the way they lord over everyone with a ‘holier than thou’ attitude.
And I have experienced all these things first hand- MANY times.
In short, the problem with vegans is that there aren’t enough positive and down-to-earth vegans to counter the bad ones.
Wait til people find out you don’t drink alcohol! 🤯
Because the Internet makes it easy to more forcefully express strong opinions, from both parties.
It's very easy to run into vegans on the Internet who will call you an unethical monster for eating meat, which if you don't think of yourself as an unethical monster, can be a bit offensive.
You also run into non-vegans who can't get it through their heads that that's not every vegan on earth, or even just the Internet or likely even that conversation.
It's much harder to call someone an animal hating monster or a pretentious condescending asshole face to face.
I respect other people's choices in what to consume, and I expect the same respect in return. I have no problem with people being vegan or vegetarian. In fact, most people I work with are from India and are vegetarian. We eat lunch together most days and no one has any problems with each other.
Unfortunately most vegans I know are extremely pushy and judgemental about their diet/lifestyle. They do not respect my choice in what to consume. This used to causes some preemptive judgements on my part, where I would get defensive immediately about my dietary choices, because I assumed they were judging me. Over time I have learned to control this reflex.
I can only assume that many people have had the same experience as me, and jump to the same conclusions.
Some people feel judged for eating meat if they learn that you're a vegetarian or vegan. As veganism appears more extreme, it causes a stronger reaction.
These people don't like being judged, so they seek to judge you instead. If they can judge you for not eating meat, you can't judge them for eating it, or so they feel.
Some vegans being quite obnoxious in their attempts to convert others, doesn't improve things. Rather, it helps those who dislike vegans to reaffirm their beliefs that all vegans are silently judging them all the time.
All of this is just my theory.
My experience around any opinion where there is a default option, the vast majority will accept the default without thinking. Then when presented with an alternative by someone who has actively chosen to not chose the default, people become highly defensive as if they did do their due diligence, whether or not they actually did. Depending on where you live, the defaults change, but being that humans are tribal, differences in lifestyle naturally create friction. In parts of America, you drive an SUV, use an iPhone, and eat meat. Whether or not they actively or passively chose that lifestyle, when someone doesn't conform to what is expected there will be friction. How people react to that friction is up to them, but again, the default is to be critical of them and encourage conformity.
There are some very militant vegans out here on Lemmy, equating eating meat with rape and murder and generally being annoying without actually contributing to the discussions.
They are actively harming their cause. So much so, I suspect them of actually being trolls trying to make vegans look bad.
Or they are just dumb as a brick and don't understand common discourse. That's possible too.
While eating meat is neither murder nor rape, for meat to be produced, exactly that needs to happen.
Or how would you call it?
To grossly oversimplify things, there are two kinds of vegans...
Type 1 are "healthy living" and "sustainability" vegans. These type are generally benign, polite, helpful, positive, and keep to themselves unless asked. They also tend to not be super militant about their veganism... like the occassional egg from someone's beloved home-raised chickens is fine.
Type 2 are ideological vegans. These types believe that "exploiting" "living creatures" in any way is fundamentally immoral, and because it's a morality issue (e.g. basically religion) the vast majority are very preachy, demanding, and in-your-face about it. They don't consider type 1 to be "real vegans".
Type 2, being the loudest and most abrasive, giving veganism a bad name and ruining it for everyone.
Right. I see what you mean but I think what you're asking for is impossible to ascertain
I think its the extreme. The idea of reducing meat consumption over eliminating it is not met kindly by many vegans and vegan communities. I also see a lot of down play of the nutrient challenge discussion. Now like anything on the internet the extremes tend to be the most vocal. I have personally known vegans who are pretty happy if people are even reducing meat consumption at all or being lacto/ovo pescatarians or such. Its really bad as sometimes the message is if your not going to go full on vegan than your personally responsible for destroying the planet (much like all responsibility for palastinian suffer is because joe bidens the one doing the genocidin) and you might as well eat meat at every meal. The reaction of this for non vegans is very often F these folks and you know what I think I will go out and have a triple bacon cheese burger right now because they taste great.
Some ideas on the topic.
I've only met vegans on social media. The vocal minority preaching vegan lifestyle is delusional. Outside of it, it's still corporations doing their best to make a profit. The regular person just eats quietly and lives their life. The requirements and costs are pittance only in their idealistic view of the world. "If only people would just .." No. They won't. We are where we are because people don't. Everyone wants the world to go their way and we kill each other for it.
As an omnivore animal, I eat what my budget allows. Sometimes it's meat, sometimes it's vegetables and sometimes it's cardboard. Just like the wild life, eating plastic bags because they taste yummy. Social media vegans seem to be either the ones that can afford to be picky or can't afford anything else.
Simple truth is that life can always be better, people can always do more and most of us simply don't want to.
Because nobody likes self aggrandizement. The perception that so many people only do it to make themselves appear to be better people because of their morally superior choice is often a vile taste to anyone who hasn't made that same choice.
We all know eating meat is bad and for the many reasons for it. What we don't want to hear is that someone made the switch and that their bleeding heart simply couldnt take it anymore.
I eat beyond meat and I do my best to transition, yet, I'd never say that for the purpose of making myself seem like a better person. Vegans typically do.
Vegans simply existing make people feel uncomfortable, so defense mechanisms in the brain trigger.
Since it’s an ethical stance, and people at least deep down know that killing innocent animals for 5 minutes of taste pleasure is wrong, but they don’t want to change themselves.
So the brain tries to rationalize how it’s definitely not wrong and really the vegan is wrong, and/or demonize the position to shield itself from the discomfort of knowing.
Basically psychological defenses kick in to defend unethical behavior that someone highlights by simply existing.
this kind of comment is exactly what make people hates vegan. lmao.
Many non-vegan psychologists do agree with it though.
I think a lot of people also have a hard time seeing it as a priority for themselves compared to their personal problems and other ongoings. It's subjective, sure. But it also takes a ton of personal responsibility and self control/denial to change habits.
Bottom line, there is a lot of things out there to care about right now, and being vegan is a big change for a lot of people. That, mixed with the extreme (understandable) feelings about mistreatment of animals by vegans, often leads to a feeling of repulsion from investing personal bandwidth into changing the behavior.
That's my opinion based on growing up with religiously vegan parents.
Same reason people who love fossil fuels hate people who are worried about global warming
I generally try not to bring it up, but I know folks that've resumed eating meat and we're welcomed back with high-fives. This argues against the "preachy" argument in this thread. And people don't get criticized the same way over eating unnutritious fast food all the time. My view is that some people feel criticized by other folks' different life choices. When Alice to be in an out group, Betty is confronted with their own life choices.