Does anyone else feel like 90% of the population is stupid?
To clarify here, I don't feel like I'm significantly smarter than most people, but I feel like people have a hard time doing any sort of thinking about stuff. Especially when it comes to verifying "facts."
Keep in mind that you, along with everyone else, know very little all in all.
The things you do know will be important to you, naturally. Their understanding and their importance will also feel obvious, also naturally.
So anyone not knowing these obvious important things will instinctively feel like an absolute idiot to you.
This is a mental trap. Try to avoid it. The less respect you have for others, the less able you will be to really listen to other standpoints and learn from them, leading to a vicious cycle of alienation.
Wine is wine, bread is bread. Let us not conflate lack of reasoning (stupidity) with lack of knowledge (ignorance).
Reasoning is based on knowledge. There have to be things you accept as truths first before you can start reasoning, and those truths are not universally shared, nor do they have the same weight for everyone. That includes you and me.
There are things we don't "know", and things we don't know that we don't know, but we nevertheless think of ourselves as informed and capable of reasoning. To someone who knows more than us, they'd consider us stupid. It's not about objectivity, it's about looking down on those that don't know things you know and declaring them less-than.
The basic point is there are countless factors big and small that influence any individual's thoughts and ideas at any given moment. Our minds are very complex things, and our lives are messy, absorbing all kinds of information and stimuli that affect it in ways we don't properly understand or even realize.
When we talk about people being stupid or smart, we're just reducing that complexity so we can make simplistic insults that make us feel better about ourselves, but ultimately aren't saying anything meaningful about the human condition.
And there's a lot of dark history behind this, too. The history of psychology is riffe with falsehoods about quantifying intelligence, and often it was simply about prejudice.
You want to call people stupid for doing stupid things, sure, I get that. I do that. We all do. But the more you try to create these general arguments about human stupidity, the more it unravels, and the more it reveals about you.
I won't address everything because it's a lot of text, OK? (I did read it though.)
I think that it's more accurate to say that reasoning is a "tool" that you use to handle knowledge. And sure, without knowledge you aren't able to use reasoning, but sometimes even with knowledge you aren't able to do it either - we brainfart, fall for fallacies, etc.
Another detail is that ignorance is far more specific - a person isn't just "ignorant", but "ignorant on a certain matter". For example it's perfectly possible to be ignorant on quantum mechanics while being informed on knitting, or vice versa. In the meantime intelligence - and thus stupidity - is split into only a handful of categories (verbal, abstract, social, etc.).
They'd consider us ignorant. At least if following the distinction that I'm emphasising.
Not necessarily reducing it but I get your point, given that I think that it's simply easier to talk about ignorance and stupidity as behaviour than as something inside our "minds" (whatever "mind" means). And in both cases it's behaviour that we all engage; some more than others, but we all do.
Right, but when these important things are also very basic things everybody needs to know, like how to boil an egg, how to vote, how to dry wet clothes, how to treat people and items carefully and with respect, etc, I don't have much sympathy for adults who come across as an idiot in these ways, you know?
There's things that other people don't know because they're not as interested in them of course, but that's not what bothers me, it's all the stuff they should all know that they're ignorant of... :-(
I couldn't boil an egg. I don't like them, I don't eat them, and I have no particular need to prepare them for anyone else.
By your standards, I guess I'm an idiot?
So, sure, you may not currently know the procedure. But you could easily boil an egg if you had 60s to google it first.
Some people wouldn’t be able to figure it out. Stupidity isn’t really accurate though in my experience, I think it’s more being overwhelmed and sometimes just having an aversion in general to change and learning. People can often have really bad experiences early in life (ironically, at the hands of people like OP who categorize them as morons for their honest ignorance) that set them up to want to never leave their comfort zone, which is itself again seen as “stupid” by the same people, thus perpetuating the cycle forever.
It even goes beyond this.
Everyone thinks they're smarter than everyone else. Smarter than doctors, scientists, and engineers. Definitely smarter than whatever the political or ideological "other side" is.
It's ruining our society. When George Carlin did his bit about "how stupid the average person is", he forgot to mention how 99% of us assume we skew into the "smarter than average" side.
I can't have conversations with people I used to respect, relatives, old friends, or even casual acquaintances without everyone blathering on about how stupid these people are or that group is. I hate it.
Yes, but they're literally being conditioned into it. You and me too. No one is immune to propaganda.
I used to hold people accountable for their (lack of) knowledge, but there's literally billions being poured into subverting these people daily. You can't really hold that against (most of) them.
Education is the obvious fix, but at least in America, the idiots are trying to destroy it. If people learned critical thinking, almost everything else would fall into place. If we stopped reinforcing learned helplessness and made people practice logic and learn consequences, society would see a huge benefit. People need to be held accountable for their ignorance. Otherwise, they won't learn. Those who refuse to learn should rightfully be shunned, because they're the biggest propaganda weapon out there.
Cognitive dissonance is another major reason for idiocracy. The MAGAts are so blatant about their love for it. "Wokeness" is healing from cognitive dissonance, which they've labeled as a virus.
I'm sympathetic and offer to help someone if they're being a bit stupid (all of us have our moments), but if they refuse, that's where they should be held accountable.
On the other hand I am pretty confident I am not an idiot, and if IQ tests done when I was 8 count I know I'm not. That does not mean I don't regularly do something wrong, or learn something completely obvious. I'm sure that in those situations somebody else wonders how I lived this long.
Yeah, I just learned how axolotl is pronounced from SciShow Kids
See, the fact you think the IQ tests matters in any way means your uniformed about it, which comes back to the topic at hand.
IQ tests are bullshit; it's been proven many times.
Yet you were told they weren't. And that informed how you think.
I could call you stupid for bringing up an IQ test.
Or I could accept that people not having all the knowledge in the world is just part of being human, and that there are many things you know that I probably don't.
Just wait until AI is leveraged into it even more so. 😅
School kids these days saying, "When I grow up"... Yeah, that's gonna happen.
Too late!
https://www.404media.co/facebook-is-being-overrun-with-stolen-ai-generated-images-that-people-think-are-real/
At this point, Facebook users should qualify as a vulnerable population
"Vulnerable" like those who still believe in a magic sky daddy?
this is the most reddit post i’ve seen on lemmy
In my experience, I have found the least intelligent people to also be the most vocal, which makes it look like they are overrepresented in the population.
Especially thanks to social media. E.g. there's a video of the ISS on instagram and the comment section is filled with flat earth people and other crazies.
They're insecure about their intelligence but too prideful to admit when they don't know something, even to themselves.
the only cure for that condition is showing them how stupid they are, so that everyone can see
this.
I would put more but it would mess up the comedy. anyway go to a public library and look at folks on the computers. If you are old enough you will remember that going to like a 7/11 or such there always seemed to be some crazy guy talking to himself. You never see them now because they are on the internet all day.
https://xkcd.com/1386/
Yeah, "stupid" is not defined around average intelligence. This whole panel is an example of a straw man fallacy to undermine someone saying "people are stupid".
Sure, "stupid" isn't defined around average intelligence, but "people" is defined around the average person. So, by saying "stupid" is not defined around average intelligence, you're really criticizing the phrase "people are stupid"...
...which is exactly what this comic is doing
Saying "people are stupid" is the same as saying "the average person is stupid". What's hard to understand here?
Frankly, that is just a big pile of babble.
There's no "definition" here. The closest to what you said that would make some sense would be "but "people" implies a generalisation around the average person", but it doesn't work in your argument because it does not contradict what BananaTrifleViolin said. Nor it justifies your assumption that
I genuinely think that you did not understand what the other poster said, so I'll repeat it under different words.
The comic has an implicit definition of stupidity as "lower than average intelligence" (see panel 2).
BananaTrifleViolin is highlighting that this is not the definition that people use for "stupid" when they say "people are stupid". And that leads to a fallacy called "straw man", where you misrepresent a position to beat it. Munroe (the cartoonist) is doing this, either by accident or on purpose. (It is not the first time he does this; his comic about free speech also shows the same irrationality.)
I like xkcd but I feel like Munroe is being assumptive here, assuming "your expectations are based on you". Are they?
Agree. When I say "people are stupid" I mean they are living below their potential. The average person may have the intelligence, but consistently refuse to use it.
Yeah, I think that this is part of the deal.
When someone says "people are stupid", they usually are not conveying "the average person has a lower-than-average intelligence". And I don't think that they're even comparing people with some point of reference (the average, or themself, or someone else); in the context they're usually criticising some behaviour that they see as stupid. For you this behaviour would be "living below their potential", for me it's "showing blatant lack of reasoning", for @_danny@lemmy.world's (from another comment) "lack of curiosity, drive to learn and critical thinking".
This. I don't mind ignorance. The ignorant can always be educated. I mind WILLFUL ignorance. Those who refuse to look at facts or use reason when confronted with something that contradicts their world view. THOSE are the stupid people.
That’s not how you respond to someone saying “people are stupid.”
There seems to be a shortage of critical thinking and problem solving skills, that's for sure.
What I see that makes it worse now than in the past is the Internet. It's easy now to find a group that agrees with your delusions and live in an echo chamber where mistaken beliefs are not challenged.
"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." - George Carlin
On average people think they are a lot smarter than the average person
Bad drivers rarely believe they are bad at driving.
Nothing does quite so good a job revealing how highly they think of themselves as sharing that Carlin quote. It's the clarian call of the faux intellectual.
I hate Carlin. Mostly because he's usually got a point.
George Carlin did an incredible job making a certain type of person believe being a nihilistic asshole was the height of wisdom.
I think the average person isn't very bright. And that's okay. Most of us don't need to be discovering new maths or creating new works of art.
But anyone is going to perform worse when they're stressed, distracted, afraid, hungry, or similar. A lot of people, that's their daily life. Something like less than half of americans can afford a $1000 surprise bill. You're not going to see anyone's best showing when they're worried about feeding themselves tomorrow.
Incidentally, republican policies suck and make more people scared, angry, and financially insecure.
I've seen a $2 and a $100 bill and even had a few, but where'd you get a $1000 bill? I've never seen one of those.
I really hope this is an on topic funny.
I might be getting wooshed because this is wordplay, but 'bill' in this context is used like 'invoice' or 'expense'
Something like less than half of americans can afford a $1000 surprise expense.
I get it, I was just leaning into the 90%.
Buy 4 new tires for your vehicle. All at once. Take a look at the vimes "boots theory of economic injustice" principal. 1000 seems extreme to you, but getting through the winter in certain parts can be sobering.
The point isnt the dollar figure, it's the principal.
principle
It is old money, and not printed anymore. $1000 bills do exist, however.
They're basically a collectors item these days. They haven't been in circulation since the 60s or so. Grover Cleveland is the president on the $1000 bill.
I think it's important to consider why you think this. Try and explain what makes someone stupid.
I do tend to agree with the general statement that most people are pretty fucking stupid. If IQ were a meaningful number of intelligence, I'd wager that it's heavily skewed left. Meaning that the common saying of "think of how stupid the average person and realize half of all people are below that" is even worse when you use the median.
For me, what makes someone stupid is lack of curiosity, lack of drive to learn, and lack of critical thinking. I think stupidity is a learned trait, and our modern society is doing its damnedest to make sure children learn it as soon as possible. Never question authority, you only need to memorize so you can pass the test, and you will be spoon fed the information.
Then soon as you get out of school, you have to get a job and occupy most of your time with work or sleep, you'll likely get only two-three hours of time to yourself each day, meaning you'll lack the time to break out of the cycle. And the system compounds at most jobs. Your manager is likely stupid, meaning they want you to never question authority, just do what they tell you, and ask them very little questions.
I also think the trillions of dollars that are spent on advertising strongly influences this. And being constantly bombarded with psychological manipulation encourages stupidity.
I also think stupidity is compounding in and of itself. The less you know, the more you can just make hasty assumptions, then use those assumptions as fact for your next set of assumptions.
It's also contagious. Being around people who are less stupid than yourself makes you feel bad, so you aren't around them much or encourage them to join you in being stupid.
There is a massive difference between not knowing something, and choosing to not know something. Just about every person in the world has access to the greatest source of information that has ever been created. There are free courses on just about every topic you could ever desire to learn, fingertips away.
There is also a massive difference between knowing something and rote memorization. Being able to follow the logical chain of facts is very important, so is being able to critically think about a topic. I think being "bored" is great at combatting stupidity in this way. Spending time with no stimulation is great for engaging your brain in actual thoughts. Consider dedicating time to just thinking: no audiobooks, music, podcasts, video games, movies, TV shows, social media, books etc. Just sit and be bored for a while. Meditation is a great entry into this.
They're actively driving the bus off the cliff.
Think about every scientist and official at cop28 desperately working to halt a 1.5c red line. Did the public rally around this effort? Did coal rollers stop intentionally injecting uncombusted fuel into their exhausts to pwn the libs? Did the governments of the world including the US stop subsidizing new extraction?
1.5c is gone; by the time people 'agree' it's fucked and unify to stop pollution at all levels we're going to be in dire straits.
But my blood needs Teflon in it to be nonstick
Keeps the arteries clean
It's an easy thing to just assume people are stupid. It makes the world nice and simple and if only people would stop being stupid and start being smart (smart like you, obviously!) All the problems of the world would be solved.
For a lot of people, reality isn't so simple. The common man is already struggling. Throughout history, the age people get married and have kids has been indicative of the stress civilizations are under, and many people aren't having kids before they get too old to have kids because that's the level of stress the common man is under. Global civilization is facing a demographic bomb as every continent except Africa is facing a massive reduction in population in coming decades because nobody is having kids because life is so hard.
As a study in contrasts, just look at wages vs. rent while I've been an adult. Minimum wage went from 11/hr to 15/hr. Meanwhile, my first 2 bedroom apartment was 350/mo, and today you can't get anything for less than 1200. A few years before I rented, there were decent houses available for $50,000 and today the average house price nationwide is $800,000. (Not the US, obviously)
So when a bunch of the business leaders and politicians who magically seem to get richer every time something is done "for our own good" -- politicians who make as much as a senior engineer on paper but all of whom seem to become fabulously wealthy regardless (huh wonder where all those extra millions came from) while the common man has suffered -- get together to figure out new ways to squeeze the common man, is it really so stupid to be skeptical? "Don't worry everyone, we're going to make your life even harder but it's all for your own good."
Having the summit in Dubai is fitting -- a city of extreme inequality, paid for with oil money, built by slaves, ruled by kings.
You can try to guilt and shame people into not caring about basic biological drives, but you actually can't. Entire generations of people have been pushed so far that their family lines will end with them. It's comfortable enough -- like being in a pool of comfortably warm water right up to your neck that you can't escape from, but when you can see people plotting to add more water to your pool the next step is you drown.
In previous eras, common people being this stressed out led to the fall of the Roman empire, the French reign of terror, the end of the Romanov dynasty in Russia or the rise of Adolf Hitler in Germany. While you call people stupid for not listening to their leaders, historically speaking those same leaders will be lucky to keep their heads on their shoulders.
Exactly my point, there will always be people like you to apologize and say "oh the end of civilization won't be that bad, stop demonizing the very fucks that got us into this mess."
Thanks.
Ah, you're illiterate. I guess it's easy to think everyone else is stupid if you can't comprehend the words they say.
A moron would follow this line of thought so I'm not surprised to see you pursuing it. Your grand children will curse your name, if a woman is ever reduced to the state where they have to procreate with you.
You might be surprised, on many fronts.
Empathy for others who are not exactly like you is actually considered a virtue when you're not in the little bubble that is reddit's toxic, hateful political disease. Despite what you seem to think, empathy for someone who isn't exactly like you is a key requirement of a healthy marriage.
Man, I hope I live to see my grandchildren read my book, The Graysonian Ethic: Lessons for my unborn son (He's born now, and he's beautiful). I bet parts of it will seem archaic, since it's directly addressing contemporary issues, but other parts will likely be timeless. It'd be really interesting if I could see them come of age and we'd get to see what they thought of their grandparents. The world will likely be a much different place by then, and not in ways you think.
I've always felt like most people lack problem solving skills. Nobody knows how to use Google or just figure things out themselves. Friends often call me for tech support but it's often very basic things like how to plug in an HDMI cable or how to fix an error that says how to fix it in the error code.
I work tech support too and deal with behavior like this daily. 90% of what I do is simple things that can be found on the first Google result. People open tickets asking how to unmute their microphone in Teams, it's ridiculous.
error messages thing, man.
I had a user complain that they "didn't know what to do" with the error message "Your calendar access has expired, please click this button to reconnect. [Big orange button saying "Reconnect"]"
I said "Did you click reconnect?"
"No"
it immediately fixed it.
I feel the same way but I think I'm just socially stunted and can't ask for help so I learned to figure it out myself. I don't have the knowledge, data, or authority to say they're not troubleshooting differently than I do because they socialize better than me.
Never really thought about it that way, but now that I think about it, me too. Don't get me wrong I am naturally curious, but I hate asking for help too. I don't want to bother anyone
For me, it's not that I don't want to bother anyone. It's just that I'm an arrogant pos and I don't like to admit I don't know something until I've tried to figure it out myself. Kinda toxic, but this forced me to learn a lot of things by myself or via tutorials online.
I think I'll just share my point of view, if you don't want to hear it then let me know and I'll delete this comment.
Projecting the image that you know everything seems kind of brittle to me - once someone sees through once, they'll never believe you about anything. Besides, it's okay that you don't know; if you're a good learner (you obviously are), then what you know right now is almost a moot point. "I dunno, but give me a few minutes". That's my perspective anyway
Nope, you're absolutely right. But I'm not projecting that I know everything. I just won't ask for help unless I've tried by myself, and can't do it.
I don't want to be absolutely clueless about hoe something is done when I ask
I know and have dealt with very highly educated and intelligent people who just can't do proper thorough problem evaluation and solving, and I don't mean just hands on practical things, I mean obtaining information, thinking a situation through and coming out with an explanation and possible solutions.
I think it's really a question of practice in Analytical Reasoning, which people in STEM have lots of because that's what those domains require (try designing a bridge using persuasion techniques from Business Management and see what happens) so they constantly practice it, but most other areas don't so people there have little practice in that mode or reasoning (but lots of practice in other ways of thinking).
You see it here tons of times: people who clearly are intelligent and educated arguing via semantics, appeals to emotion and just about a ton of falacies, all of which are noticeable as obviously flawed in logical terms with just a tiny bit of analytical thinking.
One thing I learned from my period of contact with the Theatre world some years ago (pretty much the opposite of what I do for a living), is that there are many ways of being highly intelligent (it was quite suprising for me the intelligence required to be a good actor) and maybe is better not to judge or, worse, to presume.
90% of people feel like that
If you define "stupid" as "lacking critical thinking skills", then I agree.
I work in customer service. I wouldn't say that 90% of ALL people are stupid, but an astounding number of the people I have to deal with have ... unique ways of thinking, so to speak.
The most recent example was an olderly man who was absolutely furious because a box of candy he bought for his wife "tasted absolutely disgusting". We're talking about something similar to this but I won't link our actual product as I don't feel comfortable sharing that information.
Either way, those are friggin' bath bombs. It says so on the effing package. Just because they're labeled "vegan" doesn't mean that they're edible FFS!
So I have a story for this, one I'm not proud of mind you, but it happened. One time in a lush store they had these bath bombs that were literally modeled to look like cupcakes, I remarked that they almost looked edible. A STORE EMPLOYEE replied with this.
SE: They are edible.
Me: what? No they're not
SE: oh yeah they're totally edible go ahead and take a bite
Me: wait really?
SE: yeah!
So I take a bite of the cupcake looking thing and immediately the bitter ass taste of soap fills my senses, my eyes are watering and I spit it out into the trash. I kid you not this was like a punch in the face, I was sweating, I felt a huge headache coming on and my nose was on fire. Again I'm not really proud of this but in my defence, I was a dumbass teenager and someone who I reasonably thought I could trust told me something to mess with me and I took the bait.
The employee was nowhere to be seen after that, obviously he saw my gullible ass actually did it and got out of there with a pep in his step and a smile on his face. As for me, I had a pounding headache and slightly lavender scented breath for the rest of that day.
I feel like this is a situation where going full Karen would be an acceptable response.
Meh, I was sixteen at the time and way more concerned with my friends laughing their asses off nearby
Honestly not the most egregious mistake I've seen, my local candy shop uses those exact bags and the font + color + shape of objects + "vegan" label suggest they're edible. Were they sold near the candy or near the bathroom products?
Bathroom products. In fact, they're currently located between the TP/paper towel section and the liquid soap dispensers & refill bags.
Granted, they DO look like white chocolate or something similar, but the product placement, package and the fact that it did not taste like food should have been rather obvious hints to maybe check the package again instead of driving all the way back to the store to yell at the employees. At least he had the decency to be embarrassed about it instead of starting the usual "you lost a customer, I'll never shop here again" shouting match, which is a big plus.
PS: he got a refund, but only because he was polite as soon as he realized his mistake. Normally, any sort of hygiene product is excluded from refunds, especially when it has bite marks.
omg you had an angry older customer actually admit a mistake? what'd you do, place a loaded gun on the counter as you were talking??
Yeah it happens once or twice a year, if you're lucky ... =P
But joke aside, I think he was just too embarrassed to be angry.
to be fair I can't read bath bomb from the photo but I can read fruity and older folks tend to have worse eyesight to the point they just don't read small print.
Yes and you can check how much a state spends per student and see why.
Idiots from Florida come in at $9k per student where students from NY/NJ get $12-$15k and the difference shows. If you’re hiring out of Florida expect them to suck and have less skill than 70% of the country.
Idaho and Montana have got to have some of the dumbest and most held back areas I have ever seen. Even their construction practices come from the dark ages in some cases.
Don’t even get me started on the South and Midwest as a whole.
Geniuses are rare and intelligence scores are bullshit.
Put money into schooling and fund teachers. You will solve your “everyone is stupid” problem for sure.
Gop wants people dumb, it's by design.
Completely agree with this.
Problem is, the goverment doesn't want smart asses.
Effing US News had an article where they rated Florida as the best for college education. But looking at their criteria, it was because college there is cheap and easy to graduate from. It really seemed a poor choice of criteria and good only for starting online arguments.
To paraphrase George Carlin, by definition half of the population is below average intelligence. But nobody thinks they're in that bottom half.
This is interesting to me though. Didn't most people (at least in developed countries) take tests in school? Get grades? I would think if you did below average on those you kind of....should know that you're in the bottom half?
I get that it's possible to make changes after schooling, and grades are only somewhat reliable (in that they also rely on effort) but still.
You ever see the people who get As in school take an aptitude test? They don't always get high scores.
And aptitude tests themselves are flawed and usually only measure certain quantities or qualities of intelligence, and are not really a great marker for general intelligence (this is including IQ tests which have a very racist origin and history)
Not to mention grades are about doing the work and having the discipline and organizational skills. There are plenty of people who are very intelligent, but lack both of those. US testing metrics (is that the right word?) are heavily flawed. This isn't even bringing up the racist aspect of most institutions, including educational being headed up and formulated by white people.
I'm curious. Do you think "educational" being headed up and formulated by a black person would increase scores overall? Just within black children scores?
IQ tests were first developped because it seemed obvious not all students performed equally. On average a student that is good in a given discipline will also tend to do well in other unrelated disciplines. On average is the keyword here, outliers exist.
I think gifted students can easily tell what side of the curve they're on, even though they might not want to acknowledge it. It is not even avout the grades, because gifted students also often learn early on that they can get away by doing the minimum amount of work and still get passing grades. So they're not necessarily top of classes.
Gifted students get told they're fast learner all the time, and they notice how everyone else seem to be progressing in slow motion. They know.
I think it gets harder to self-evaluate the closer you are to the average, since most of your peers will be more or less just as intelligent as you. Then, the dullest you are, and the less you can identify competense and the more likely you are to be over-confident.
I think in the end, most people will end up believing they're above average because we tend to notice dumb people a lot. Ironically it is probably students who are just slightly above average who will have the most self-doubts, because they feel different from their peers, yet they can probably tell more gifted students are around.
Source: 50% my ass, 50% being surrounded by incredibly smart people who shared their personal experiences with me.
I think what upsets me the most is that people refuse to learn from past mistakes.
It's a lot easier to deny that you're wrong than to learn something new.
easier to a fool a man, than it is to convince him he's been fooled.
Stupid? Maybe if verifying "facts" is your sole metric. I know people who aren't very media savvy who fall for some stupid propaganda, but they could empty my car's engine bay and put it back together again and have it cranking the same day. Or you can drop them in any body of water in a 250km radius and they'll know what fish can be caught there and be able to hook an edible-sized one in half an hour or less. We don't all have the same skill sets, but we ain't all "stupid".
I'd argue given enough time and effort almost anyone can become a domain expert in specific things and do incredible stuff. What distinguishes smart people from simpler folks usually boils down to them having a very easy time processing new stuff, which includes the ability to filter noise and fact check.
I don't like the term "stupid", but there hasn't been a whole lot of evidence supporting the idea that human intelligence is compartimented. Humans with high IQs tend to outperform in average at most of what they try. Low IQ probably means you will work harder and have to specialize to achieve the same degree of competency. This just my hot take, I've fallen into this rabbit hole before and read a lot on the origin of IQs tests. In the end, intelligence alone does not determine a person's worth anyway.
I dunno. I'm pretty smart in some things, but I've also made some real bone-headed mistakes. Sometimes I'm rushing, sometimes I just truly don't think about it. Sometimes while talking through what I think is the best solution, I figure out I'm wrong.
two things I've done.
-gotten a 3.9 GPA with honors through two years of medical school
-didn't realize "Penn State" was in Pennsylvania until I stopped and thought about it
like, sometimes we don't think about things enough. Sometimes we have a brain fart. Sometimes we've just never been introduced to a particular concept or factoid (being ignorant).
I think the only true stupidity is when people don't learn from their mistakes, when people refuse to update their ideas to fit new facts, and when people remain willfully, maliciously ignorant as a point of pride.
if it makes you feel any better I'm PA born and bred and I didn't realize that Penn State and UPenn were different schools until I was in my 30s
I don't think those are the things OP is talking about. I'm the same as you, but those are just things that never really clicked, happens to everyone. Hell, I'm like a neon light sometimes too, takes time to light up 😂.
i thought it was Bicachusetts, don't feel bad
Wait until you find out where Indiana University is
The feeling of the intelligence or stupidity in others is all relative.
For example an IQ around 170 or above makes somebody have a 1-in-a-million level of intelligence, so for such a person 99.9999% of the population feels less intelligent, with the level felt as "stupid" being a lot higher than average intelligence, to the point that for such a person "entry level" geniouses - those people with an IQ just above 120 - often feel "stupid".
And then there is the whole non-IQ factor to the feeling that somebody is "stupid" - for example, intelligence (even the 170 IQ level) can be "stupid" (more broadly "fool", "gullible", "weird" and so on) because of lack of wisdom, life experience (in the sense of having lived, as age by itself means little for those who don't do much living) or even just social awkwardness. (The Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory, though a stereotypical portrait, is quite a good example of that difference between "intelligence" and "smarts" or "wisdom")
You could say that IQ is computing power but with the wrong software or bad data, it's still going to underperform.
Personally, I think it's best not to go around passing judgment in such absolutist terms as "stupid" since we're all "stupid" in some domains and often one's "I'm so much smarter than these people" feeling is nothing more than a case of the Dunning-Krugger Effect.
High intelligence people, especially, need to learn that IQ by itself is not enough and take to hearth Socrate's dictum: "All I know is that I know nothing" (or, as I read it: "The more I learn, the more find out I have yet to learn")
There's also what another comment pointed out. It's not so much that most of us are stupid but that we're not really equipped for the internet as a species. We get bombarded with too much crap from all directions, get stuck on echo-chambers, and don't really fact-check, even when we do, because you can't just fact-check everything that's thrown at you 24/7. It's a lot easier to not care, or care too much without substantiating your beliefs.
For example, Covid wasn't the first time the anti-mask, anti-Vax, conspiracy theorist, all-around crazy movement popped out their head. It wasn't the first time money beat forethought. It wasn't the first for much of the negative shit we saw, and yet for me it marked the moment I lost hope for the future of our species, after all, how can we hope to deal with stuff as huge and hard to see as climate change if we can't even believe the existence of a virus that's actively killing us? Are they all stupid for not putting in some effort to prevent this virus from spreading and killing millions? Am I stupid for thinking they would? Am I stupid for losing hope due to listening to all these stories of people fighting masks and vaccines? How many people worldwide actually fought back and resisted? You see it in my own words, I'm sort of convinced the crazies got riled up, and for sure in some parts of the world they did, but the scope of the internet spreads all sentiments on the matter to every corner of our interconnectedness, before we're even aware it's happening. All of a sudden we're seeing conclusions from all sides without checking for how they all got where they did nor how many people actually believe it, we pick one side, maybe skim over another, and decry the rest as insane and sometimes even malevolent. These republicans sure want their voters dead or at the very least are too stupid to understand the dangers of the virus, this bill gates guy sure wants everyone microchipped or at the very least wants the medical world in his hands, these Chinese fellows for sure developed and released the virus or at the very least had it slip from their fingers. How am I supposed to know, or care, for all of it? How is any of us? Is it our personal responsibility to know and clear every fact we can? Spread awareness and fact-check everything? Just shut up and don't get involved? What the fuck do we do, what can we do? Do we fight dissenting voices online? Do we march on the streets over beliefs we might not fully grasp nor could we?
We're just a bit too overloaded with everything to make a good job as a species about anything. At least that's what I think, at least for the individuals that make up our species. Whatever you choose to believe, whatever actions you choose to take in response, someone somewhere will see you and think you're an absolute idiot.... And, I think, there's not much to do about it.
That stuff was mainly an US phenomenon and, IMHO, was quite a good display of how easy it is to tickle people's emotions so that they override reason: mask-wearing and vaccination was turned into a kind of tribalist signal by manipulative politicians and for the vast majority of people the need to fit in (an other emotional aspects of tribalism) easilly override rationalism (which isn't even practiced in any sistematic way by most people) so you ended up with people treating the whole thing in the most irrational way and denialism being almost entirelly a phenomenon of just one political and social tribe in the American society.
In countries were tribes are less adversarial (for example, places with voting systems that do not mathematically favour a power duopoly) or were none of the dominant tribes turned Covid denialism into a tribal thing, vaccination takes were much higher and refusal to wear a mask near non-existent (especially because the kicking out of the handful of mask-wearing refusers from places like supermarkets was approved by an overwhelming majority of people).
Mind you, had some local tribe taken that up as a tribal flag, you would see the same phenomenon as the US, maybe not as much because almost no other Democracy has such a rigged voting system and hence the power split into two sides with a wide chasm in between when it comes to social and moral issues.
In my opinion as a species we might have came up with quite a lot of fancy tech in the last handfull of millenia but we haven't evolved that much as intelligent beings, both individually and in our social structures.
I think we live in an age where advertisements are literally gaslighting, and also where large portions of the population are bombarded with advertisements on a daily basis. I'm not surprised if people's grip on reality gets a little wobbly, resisting all that propaganda is a lot of effort.
I think adblocking is the best thing I've done for my children.
Think about all those poor youtubers and the platform itself.
Lol obvious sarcasm, fuck 'm and the insane amount of ads that are nowadays considered normal.
That's a lot more complex than people are stupid. Occam's razor.
I would like to believe this is sarcasm, but it's impossible to distinguish fake stupidity from real stupidity; Poe's law.
They've just had the intellectual curiosity beaten out of them. All part of the design. Now shut up and get back to work wage slave!
Not every problem is solely because of capitalism
A lot of them are though.
Yes but that's irrelevant right now
You sound like my CEO
Get back to work!
I don't see anyone making a sole origin claim.
If you squint hard enough you'll find there's something between the lines of most posts
Realize that when you are in a group of people, the (set-theoretic) intersection of knowledge only decreases as you add members. But you are likely to assign individual ignorances to the group as whole. "He doesn't know this; she doesn't know that" equates to "these people don't know anything".
It also works in the opposite direction (well, up to a point, with too many people communication overheads become too much) - the more people with the more varied expertises and experiences you add, the more complete the group knowledge becomes.
PS: And that both things increase simultaneously with group size actually brings an interesting side to it - people seeking the "flaws" of others will find more "ignorant" people as the group size grows whilst those seeking the knowledge of others will find more total knowlegde as the size grows, or in other words, the spirit of those in the group or interacting with it matters can produce almost opposite conclusions and results.
I don’t think most people are stupid if stupid means lacking reasoning skills or knowledge or curiosity. You can find all sorts of people who you’d think sound stupid but know tons about one subject. But even if they don’t, they likely have a working knowledge base and only know what they need to know.
What I consider stupid or problematic is that most people, probably 75% or more of the overall population, are not skeptical or analytical and have a fundamentally busted epistemology. Even if your information filter works, if you don’t understand why it works, I’m going to struggle in conversation with you. So yes I think the general population has a hard time thinking critically because they don’t know how to analyze their own beliefs or knowledge.
Your description fits my brother perfectly.
He has very little curiosity, hasn't read more than 3 books in his entire life, strongly dislikes all forms of art (except shitty movies and TV-shows), isn't capable of analytical or critical thinking and hasn't got a clue how the political system works.
He apes the attitudes of his spouse and friends, so much that I'm not sure he even has any opinions of his own.
Yet this doesn't bother him at all. He's very happy being oblivious and he makes more than twice as much money per month than I do with my master's degree. He is very good at what he does and I'm happy for him.
It would still be nice to be able to have a real conversation with him, instead of just stating the factual matters or laughing at some dumb jokes. If we both didn't share such a strong resemblance of our dad I'd assume that my mom had an affair, beyond our appearance we have almost nothing else in common.
I feel like I personally make up for a lot of other people's skepticism
The fact that this post has more up- than downvotes is already an indication, that the majority seems to agree with you.
Everybody thinks that everybody else is stupid.
This exactly. Everyone also thinks they're the best driver on the road and everyone else is an idiot. It's good to humble yourself everyone now n' then.
Just once I wanna see a dude do a bitchin' flip on the highway (without it being an accident that results in a crash) and humble me. Is that so much to ask?
I usually feel like most people I talk to are smarter than me.
There's an old proverb I like about this: a person is smart but people are dumb.
People en masse tend to be dumber than they are apart. I think you're comparing yourself to the faceless masses. It's much more humbling to try comparing yourself to someone you respect (but don't do it as a "I'm not as good as them" thing, only do it as a "goals to maybe achieve one day" thing to avoid accidentally trashing your self esteem)
Side note: old proverb here means I think my dad said it once but I have no idea where it actually came from
Tommy Lee Jones says this in Men in Black, no idea if it was coined before that though.
I choose to believe Agent K came up with it.
"The IQ of a mob is the IQ of its dumbest member divided by the number of mobsters." (attributed to Terry Pratchett)
None of us is as dumb as all of us.
Whoever says that pretty much qualifies as dumb in my book.
Collective deision-making is superior.
It depends. Group psychology like mass delusion is well known. Collective decision making works in specific circumstances where the majority have some idea about what the problem is.
So you're saying that the only obstacle to effective collective decision-making is the withholdiing of relevant information?
I think you meant "the ability to learn" because you're not getting better answers from groups of non-physicists about the geometries of black holes than from individual experts regardless of how much information you give them
Sooooo... are you suggesting that individual physicists would be better off working in isolation? That must be what you are suggesting... since nothing that I have said suggested anything about groups of people making collective decisions about matters that are completely arbitrary.
Just linking to an article about collective decision making isn't really that helpful without quoting the article for your points.
So that article you posted talks about animal behavior, and that an economic view on collective decision making is a good approach for animal behavior.
Nowhere did they make the conclusion that collecting decision making is superior, especially in the context of humans.
Were you not aware that humans are animals?
I dunno your country or your premise, but I can state pretty confidently that the American school system is completely and utterly failing to prepare Gen Z. Working adjacent to the schools, even amongst the best and brightest the country has to offer are thousands upon thousands of students who fundamentally do not know how to think for themselves about anything.
All this to say, depending on if you're in the U.S., things might just keep getting worse. Especially if you're living in a deeply conservative state, I would not be surprised if the number really was 90%. It's really sad, but that's what happens when you attack public schools for decades.
What's sad is, that's the point. That's how they get prepared for the future.
A future where they work for their rulers and don't cause controversy.
Saddest part is, their teachers who should be encouraging intrigue and free thought are usually the first ones to fight back against it in their classroom. All to make their job easier, lol.
Not a teacher, but what I keep reading is that they're trying not to get pilloried by students' screaming MAGA parents.
It's not necessarily the teachers' fault. Most of the teachers I've talked to legitimately want to help students. The issue is the administrations. I have school counselors who are refusing to write letters of recommendation for full-ride scholarships. Principals who don't know what a pdf is. Testing coordinators who literally cannot read.
It infuriates me that most of the money that goes to schools ends up in the pockets of these administrative bureaucrats that do not care about children in the slightest. At best they are grossly incompetent, at worst they are actively malicious.
It's definitely not their fault, per se.
They're just doing their job. It's how the system is set up.
The best teachers I've had were ones that routinely went outside of the curriculum to engage with students on a human level. But current trends in academia heavily discourage that.
See I don't buy into this. To me, this is getting into seriously conspiracy theory stuff. I don't think that there is some grand plan to keep people stupid so that they don't cause trouble.
I think the system just fails at educating students well due to a variety of factors.
there's a general degradation in the perceived value of things like thoughtfulness and humility.. people think being loud and seeming not to care is the way to be.. it's all very tribal and childish..
Idiocracy was a prophecy
Not that high a number but there are some complete idiots out there.
Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of the population is stupider than that.
That's not how averagwa work.
A median is an average and is exactly that.
Intelligence also tends to be a bell curve distribution which means the mean is likely that way too. Also means the mode, the final type of average, is also likely in the middle.
It kinda is, but only if intelligence is perfectly normally distributed. (Spoilers, it kinda is)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_classification
On average, I think it balances out
I think the issue here is that we're all genetically just apes and we live in a world where we're expected to know about geopolitics, outrageous technologies, all kinds of cultural artifacts, and a bazillion other complexities of modern life, in addition to the basics of feeding ourselves, finding a mate, and child rearing. At the same time, we have behemoth corporations in control of all media with a strong interest in keeping people dumb, angry and discontent. And education is... not what it should be.
No, humans aren't inherently evil or stupid or whatever. We've just inherited a world situation that we are not adapted for, and few people are able to learn and grow sufficiently to really understand and handle it all properly.
100% agree, society is so radically different today from even 200 years ago.
Most discernable minor changes from evolution are from 10+ thousand years ago. Major changes are more on the order of 100k-millions of years.
We're 100% not "made for" the world we've created.
Is someone stupid because they don't know how to change a light bulb? A tire? How to do laundry? How to cook a meal? Review a book? Write an essay? Manage a task?
It's just skills people dont have that often make them look stupid to most people who have that skill. Especially when those tasks seem very trivial once you have that skill.
Being ignorant of something doesnt make someone stupid. But i do think being stupid often prevents you for fixing your ignorance
Just 2 cents of thought
Edit: forgot to say every single person on the planet us stupid at something or about something but we may never have the opportunity to find out
My friend just moved into a new house, and there are no light bulbs anymore. So changing light bulbs is on a trajectory to be like shoeing a horse.
I never did change a tire, but I have changed a wheel. However most new cars don't even have a spare wheel.
A lot of older folks are actually less likely to know how to do laundry with modern textiles and dyes. The only complicated thing is sorting and that can actually be largely skipped now.
Anyway, 90% of people will agree that 90% of people are dumb, they just won't agree on which 90%
Wholeheartedly agree with this
I feel like 20% of people are stupid but they cause 80% of the annoyances in my life.
The Pareto principle is everywhere in life.
And now I've learned what that rule is called. Cheers.
I think ignorant might be more accurate than stupid. That crosses into stupidity if the ignorance is wilful eg they refuse to accept facts or refuse to even investigate if someone tries to present evidence.
People these days seem exhausted and angry and for some there's comfort in the 'certainty' of their wrong beliefs. I read a piece recently about an ex qanon guy who said a large part of the appeal was being part of a community and encouraged to be angry about everything.
I wouldn't say that high, but yeah I think the majority of average people are dumb. Even people that are well educated and considered smart, will just believe stupid things they're told without spending a few seconds to think it through or verify it.
You see it on reddit/lemmy a lot when an obviously fake post gets taken seriously by most commentors, or people just assume that the context someone gives in a title is true, because they literally believe whatever they see on the internet ESPECIALLY if its something that reinforces a strongly held belief.
And that's lemmy users who I generally consider to be on average a fair but smarter and more critical than you're average bloke.
So if we were to talk about you're average middle aged man that's been a trade for 20 years, spends every night down the boozer and his only hobby is getting into fights at football matches..... yeah.
"Think of the average American and realize that 50% are dumber than that" - George Carlin
Only when I'm driving
That's a significant insight. It's only once you've been in a car with someone driving that you really become aware of how "awake"(?) They are. Observance and prediction seem to come with higher intelligence, and some people do not have it.
I feel like 90% of people don't put in the mental effort to resolve cognitive dissonance, not that they are incapable of feeling it.
If that counts as stupid, then I fully agree 90%+ of people are "stupid".
I wouldn't necessarily say 'stupid'. But lacking in sufficient empathy? Fearful of different people (to the point of being irrationally hostile to them)? Feel entitled? Are smug and sanctimonious about their beliefs? Get to caught up on what other people do with their lives and want you control them?...
Then yes. Definitely.
Yes. But the 90/10 varies by topic.
And never assume you're in the 10%. Arguably, everyone thinking they are is the problem
I do wonder how widespread Astro-turfing is. I just came from a discussion of EVs and some of the anti people were really obtuse in their claims. Just making wild claims that are completely against any actual real life data. There was similar for climate change, and smoking ….. sure I’m biased but people want to support the status quo against all reason. Is it some sort of stubborn stupidity? Are they malicious/trolls? Is it corporate propaganda?
I know, I think this a lot when I'm on here. Especially the whole "don't vote for Biden because Israel" thing. I just saw some comments saying that Trump would be better to have as president because he's just dumber and wouldn't be able to carry out any kind of war. I honestly can't tell anymore whether a real person would actually say that.
I mean I'm sure someone honestly believes that. But to be fair, people believe the earth is flat.
More like 90% of human actions are stupid, as I'm not sure if there's an even split of "the stupid" and "the smart", and plenty people mix both. (E.g. being oddly competent at something specific, only to vomit assumptions on something else.)
In special I feel like four types of stupidity became a bit too common, too harmful, too egregious. They're the failure to handle:
They're intertwined, I think. And perhaps there's something more important than those, but those four are the ones that I notice the most.
90% of the population think that 90% of the population are stupid.
The math ain't mathin'
Why not? Please elaborate.
You’re probably as stupid as the rest. I expect there’s loads of stuff you’ve just taken at face value that is completely wrong.
Agreed
Epistemology, the theory of knowledge, especially with regard to its methods, validity, and scope. Epistemology is the investigation of what distinguishes justified belief from opinion.
People suck.
Sometimes, though I think it’s easier for anybody to be duped by things they’re already pre-disposed to believing in. Show me a fake article about Trump doing something stupid or evil and I’ll probably be like, “How is he still free?” without really double-checking the source, unless it’s blatantly questionable.
Meanwhile, somebody of the opposite political persuasion will similarly soak in anything that confirms that Biden is the worst president we’ve ever had in history, but their range of “trusted” news sources is completely different than mine. I’m not sure how we can even bridge that gap, since our definition of reality and accepted facts isn’t really even the same anymore. There’s just so many propaganda engines active in the US right now, it’s hard to imagine anything being done about it. If anything, it’ll get worse.
What a refreshing comment. No one is immune to propaganda, but I feel like I'm going insane seeing all of this binary, red vs blue rhetoric. One thing is for certain, we are all being fucked. We need to stop looking left and right, I just don't see it happening, as the propaganda has gotten scary good in this day and age.
I mean if it is a bell curve, even an average person is smarter than half the world. There's a selection bias on social media because those heated and ignorant threads get memed and shared either by people who believe the nonsense or by outrage.
Do you think it is a bell curve?
Most tests of intelligence lands close to a bell curve. With how many different factors that can influence intelligence it seems quite likely (the average of many different distributions each with a peak in the center is likely to look like a bell curve)
More precisely: If you repeatedly draw values from a probability distribution and sum them up, the sum tends towards a Gaussian (central limit theorem).
It’s more of a mixture of stupidity, distraction, and willful ignorance
There's a lot of things that can go into being "stupid", and it's important to remember that these are largely conditions that are debuffing them rather than inherent features of who they are. Most specifically, huge deaths of the population (61% as of Oct 2023) are living paycheck-to-paycheck in the US and have little to fall back on - that kind of perpetual, hopeless stress can greatly fatigue you and occupy your higher reasoning. Moreover, a number of people have become "locked in" to certain kinds of facts - for example the belief that America is inherently good or that God actively relieves suffering; they would have to put their axioms through substantial reevaluation and fresh information to be able to cross through uncertainty and then accept contrary facts, and their living conditions make that difficult.
A lot of people feel the ways you do at one point or another in their lives, and that means you probably end up in their 90%.
No, it just means that he's smart enough to notice.
If you meet people every day that can't do simple math, yeah, that gets under your skin really fast... and then you start to notice other things, like their attitude towards life and problems, their lack of logical reasoning, etc. And then you realize that, yes, most people are stupid. You yourself are not very smart, but smart enough to notice.
My guess is, in most cases, people just lack good education. Sure, there are simpletones, but most people are not like that, they just never had proper education and guidance. And the problem seems to perpetuate. They don't see anything wrong with the way they were raised, so they raise their children the same way. An oddball might break the cycle every now and then, but their number is far too low to make an impact, so they usually just move when they become of age.
The under 25 crowd seems to be a bit.....off. I'm just an old guy now, so I'll be here yelling at my clouds.
I'm not so sure, I saw this short the other day of this Gen z woman with a caption that said something like "you can tell gen z from millennial by the rise of their jeans" with her wearing mid rise (labeled low) and high rise jeans, and the comments were full of millennial women pointing out that in the 90s the low rise was like way way way low (which they were) or that millennial wore low rise first, or that it was a bad style or whatever input they felt they needed to give
And I realized this Gen z girl doesn't care about any of this, and is actually quite clever, she's just effectively gotten an insane amount of engagement and is positioning herself as an influencer because much of my generation are idiots and are commenting and reacting on her stuff over the rise of pants
One thing that seems to be true for so long as we have been writing stuff: people 35 and older have always always complained about how hopelessly stupid/lazy/off the people under 25 are and how society is doomed when those folks take over. I take comfort that we seem to have consistently gotten this wrong for hundreds of years.
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.".
Socrates. ~400BC
And yet the quote is still somehow not even remotely old.
Ya, I don't think they're lazy or stupid but I'm clearly seeing enormous swaths of people being herded by social media and it's quite fascinating to see. Prior to this generation, the ability to influence wasn't nearly as easy to do and attention spans weren't quite as easy to capture. Now we're all captured by the device we're holding and influenced by one thing or another.
A major difference is they can get information whenever they want.
It used to be sort of hard to find academic knowledge outside of an institution. Now you can download it all for free on libgen and have youtubers walk you through it.
That kind of accessibility causes people to take it for granted.
The biggest difference is where the information is coming from, moreso than its availability imo. Previously what you read in a journal or textbook was typically pretty well vetted, it's hard to say that about the information I'm getting here.
You can download the exact books they use in college.
Yet that's not how we're seeing people get their information these days....
You're conflating "their information" with "academic information."
A bunch of us recently gained access to global platforms.
A bunch of global platforms recently gained access to us.
I wouldn't say stupid but I'd say most people believe they know what they're doing, and don't.
The comments in here are so depressing it's actually funny. Evidently we don't even know what the word means. "No metrics" ffs
Look, the fact of the matter is, as soon as you start even just inching over to the right of the curve, the people rolling the other way down the hill are already, let's say, beyond your horizons. The reverse is true too but in the less salutory way. You will never be able to fully communicate anything to them, their heads are populated with bullshit and nothing true can remain in their minds because it just gets overwritten by the stupidity which they have chosen as their life. They do not see obvious connections, they can not follow principles or see how they apply to them, and they are too arrogant to have sense spoken to them. They can not learn, resent the suggestion that there is something they don't already know in the first place, and they say things like "you can't tell me shit". I mean, thanks for self-identifying as a drain on society but we could already tell...
I think it's interesting how mathematically hard it is to judge anyone else's intelligence, like you talk about the issue of people rolling down the hill and I get that and agree but really it's vastly more complex topography - if the conversation is about python programming I can look very intelligent, if it's about java programming then I'll look a bit of a fool, and these are as similar as you can get were the topic famous geologists then I'd probably seem like a total idiot
Now you'll be tempted to say but you can still tell by how you carry yourself and it's s bit true but that's not really true either, I've travelled enough to know that common sense in one area is dumb somewhere else - ask too many questions in one place they'll think you're simple and don't ask enough somewhere else they'll think it too.
Part of it is that we don't really know what level someone is on, if you see a guy in the garden staring at the pretty leaves for hours he just might be empty headed, or he could be Alan Turing working out one of the most fundamentally brilliant mathematics discoveres of the era.
We're on our own hill of intelligence so it can be hard to tell if someone on a different one is smart or dumb
I also think so. You can usually tell who is close to your own level, but anything too far off andthe signals for what is considered smart or dumb tend to blend together.
The one trait which usually don't lie is the person ability to learn. Fast learners and autodidacts are almost always smart, and people who are slow to learn are almost always left of the curve. Other signals you mentioned are deeply rooted in culture and can reqlly give the wrong impression.
Very well said. Is it even possible to quantify intelligence? I mean, you can obviously measures brain size, which they did, and that was lacking, then they measured amount of gray matter, which matters a lot more, conclusively, but there is also the fact that even losing pieces of the brain cannot stop a person from being fully functioning due to neuroplasticity, and then you have concepts like IQ tests which are verifiable steeped in white exceptionalism aka racist as hell.
Removing bias from IQ tests is one hell of a challenge, but if we put that aside and only analyse IQ results from people from similar backgrounds, it definitely measure something, and it usually gives accurate results. Meaning your score would not change much by taking the test again.
IQ score correlate with someone general ability in pattern recognition, languages, logic, bias check and etc. It also correlate with grades, salary, lifespan. So, is that intelligence? I don't know, but it is something.
It seems like the issue is more nuanced than all that.
I'm not like those other dumb asses, cause I know I'm a dumb ass!
I think so. One trip through social media is proof enough. Or, people are willing to be stupid for attention/money. But I add self-awareness to that, I’m not as smart as I think I am.
It really depends on where you live. And what kind of people are around you on a daily basis.
Covid showed me we are living in a asylum.
"90%" doesn't feel very factual to me.
No, I don't feel (or think) that.
If 90% of the population was stupid there'd be no need to spend uncountable billions brainwashing them with propaganda at every turn, would it?
FYI... I once worked in the propaganda industry - propaganda doesn't work on the stupid (and I use that term lightly, since I'm not sure "stupid" is something that even really exists). The smarter you assume yourself to be, the more susceptible you are.
Well maybe not 90% but I do feel like smarter* than average but then again half of the population is so that hardly makes me special.
I used to work for the military, i had to keep 65 random guys between the age of 19 and 39 busy for two weeks. Every now and then there was a batch of guys that was shockingly stupid. I'm not a very smart guy, usually when someone has an idea, i run with that, because i assume everyone else is smarter than me. But holy shit, i have no idea how some of these people even exist in the real world.
I paired two guys up, one was a carpenter and the other one works at a post office. Their task as to close up a door that wasn't used anymore. I got two boards cut in size to mount on both sides. If i would've done it, i woul've given myself an hour. They spend 9 hours on it, using all kinds of tools, somehow ruining both boards, and it looked like ass.
This is only one story of two people, but the list just never ends. I'd never run out of stories for doing that job for only 5 years, which means a total of 10 weeks.
Some guys were scary dumb, but somehow had a functioning life.
Try driving in Rhode Island you’ll feel like the number is way higher than 90%
Judging by news and media I'd probably feel that way just being in US in general
Everyone is stupid some of the time and after we've noticed all that it feels like we're surrounded by idiots.
Truth is we're just not seeing the competence.
Most people just don't care enough in my opinion. When it comes to politics, all they want is to be left alone. They just look for the first piece of media that confirms their biases and be content with that. I think that's why conservative fearmongering works so well. All they have to do is to convince those persons that the left wants to tell them how to live and that is enough for those people to trust that conservative media.
If you "don't feel like I'm significantly smarter than most people" but view "90%" of people, which I think is well into "most" territory, are stupid then one can reasonably infer you're putting yourself into that category.
Additionally, what does stupid even mean? If I were to try to engage with the spirit of your question, I ironically find myself reflecting on a wise insight my uncle once gave me. Someone who would fall under "stupid" if I am to understand your question right. Anyways, my uncle once said that smart or dumb don't have an all-encompassing nature (IQ eat your heart out). Instead, one can be smart or dumb with respect to specific domains. My uncle knows a lot about guns, not so much about the internet.
So to answer your question, yes most people are "stupid" about most things, but are often quite smart in specific fields related to their life experiences. That's why we have experts in various fields of study. You and I are no different, and employing empathy seems to be the best strategy to bridging knowledge gaps with others, if that's your goal.
My take is most people have a lot more intellectual capacity than people think, but the majority don't know how to use it.
Trivial proof;
Ask somebody to solve a propositional logic question. Give them all instructions they need. Then ask them if some person cheated in a hypothetical social situation. The majority instantly solves the latter correctly, the majority has no idea how to handle the former. Note: social rules can be directly translated to propositional logic, the two types of questions are effectively equivalent. The same thing applies to advanced math like statistics and many other fields.
Humans have the capacity. They just don't know how to generalize correctly. They don't know how to deal with problems of an unknown form. The have a hard time following instructions if they feel to abstract. All of this can be trained, if people want to learn. Unfortunately most people don't want to learn.
By what standards do you rank us? Half of us are stupider than average. We're all of very limited intelligence - the best we can do is to team together to function as one gigantic brain of humanity, drawing from the strongest qualities of all of us. That way the world can be brought forward by brilliant scientists who are completely stupid in their own way, and who would never survive a week on their own.
Politics are tricky, but I think it's more fruitful to think of people as brainwashed than stupid. The amount of propaganda we're subject to these days is unprecedented.
As for general stupidity, be charitable; judge people by what they're best at. Most people have one thing or another they are great at, and our differences is what makes humanity occasionally great.
If you judge a fish by his ability to climb a tree, he will live his entire life thinking he is a failure.
I think a lot of it is that we all have topics which we are knowledgeable about. Common discourse then takes different topics, and some people will contribute to the discussion who don't understand the underlying stuff so much, they have different interests.
The problem is when you read a tech article as a tech worker, you laugh at how stupid the journalist and the commenters are. Then you read an article on some geopolitical event, or some natural phenomenon, and you take what is written as gospel, and even comment on it on forums, despite not having the same level of understanding as in your favourite topic. And you don't feel you're part of the stupid 90% then and there.
Yep. Wanted to ask the same thing a while back, but was afraid of backlash.
And it's well over 90%, I'd say like closer to 95, 96.
I was feeling the same. I saw 90% and was immediately impressed at their optimism.
Human intelligence is segmented and specialized. People who are smart at few things are usually very dumb at others. A person who can speak 9 languages can't do more than basic math. An expert computer programmer, who can't figure out how to keep a plant alive. Etc...
Polymaths are very rare. Very few people have advanced understanding and skills in multiple areas.
Maybe people tend to specialize because they've been told that's how they should do it. The reality is there is no limit known to what the human mind can learn. I've found that I can do just about anything I set my mind to do.
I can do car repairs, electronics design and repair, plumbing (which I avoid if at all possible), music (guitar, keyboard, bass, and drums), painting, drawing, computer systems design and repair, basic programming (powershell and bash scripting mostly), carpentry, farming, chemistry, cooking, hunting, and math. Math was always pretty easy to me until I got into Calculus which kicked my ass initially.
When I was growing up we didn't have the internet or cable TV so I read books all the time. I've read hundreds of novels, and it gave me an excellent grasp of language and a massive vocabulary. Everybody should do that too.
It's lower than 90% for sure, but I'd be comfortable putting the number at a solid 40%.
Yes, myself included.
Excuse me! I resemble that remark!
I feel this, but more along the line of chosen ignorance rather than actual stupidity. Either a new topic us overwhelming or they worry\fear they'll get it "wrong". Also, being from the south, where so much has been politicized, they fear the tribal back lash of thinking for themselves. I don't know what's wrong with me, I was never the type to "go with it".
Amen brother or sister
Thinking is hard work and with easy access to pre-cooked opinions online, they don't need to put in any effort.
You are so generous ❤️ because i think 99% it's stupid
And when I see and feel people on important jobs just because they are parents or friends or friends from friends from someone on the top and not because they are right skilled for that job..... Then.... You smell the stupidity 10km far away And nowadays it's what you find on all companies 🤮
I think I'm part of that 90% without a doubt lol
I know I am and I also believe that this kind of certainty proves it lol
I have no idea, but if so, I'm definitely in that 90%.
And getting worse.
No, this is a classic case of confirmation bias on social media. And I've seen too many people on Lemmy on the daily who have developed a smug attitude and think that everyone else is just another idiot and talk down to others from the start because of it. For a crowd that preaches compassion and understanding, sometimes I wonder why it's only selectively applied by these folks.
Well obviously you are just another idiot because you disagree with me about whether everyone is dumber than me.
Fine! Be like that!
Well, it is not "90% of people is stupid"
It is more "at any given time, the 90% of people is doing something stupid", or the equivalent statement "90% of the time people does stupid things"
IIRC math guys call this an "ergodic and stationary" system
Maybe more like 50%. But maybe it just seems like that to me, I might just be a mid tier dum-dum ¯_(ツ)_/¯
Reminds me of:
(Sorry, not sure why this has weird artifacts after I uploaded it. The copy on my phone looks fine.)
Yeap, Its actually true
Holy crap this got more attention than I was bargaining for...
Well I know which half I'm in.
I mean, a lot of people have a tendency to do "stupid" things, and maybe even say stupid things - but I wouldn't classify 90% of the population as stupid. First problem is that "stupid" isn't a very quantifiable quality - and "smarter" really depends on the perspective of the way you're looking at it. I'll use what someone else mentioned here as an example: I would like to say that I'm at least a decent software developer (or so I hope), but I know absolutely nothing about cars (I don't even have one). While I'm pretty well rounded on the software side of computers, I'm terrible at the hardware side. I am also terrible at math aside from the very basics (and even then... eh) - hence, I'd never have a good shot at even getting into game development if that were something I wanted to pursue.
So not only can I not comment on whether other people are "stupid", I can't even account for myself, because there's no metric for it. Are we going off of IQ (I have zero clue what my IQ is, nor do I really have an interest in finding out what it might be)? Are we going off of being able to answer Jeopardy questions?
only when I'm driving
Yes, we all do, and most of us outgrow it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfRhApTWIlE
Oh, c'mon. I'm not misanthropic 😂
Your sentiment is 90% of people supposedly being or seeming like being stupid. I assume that you use stupid in a colloquial sense as I don't believe you think 90% of people are disabled. The colloquial sense contains quite a lot of contempt though, enough to qualify as misanthropy.
If you don't like misanthropy, avoiding overgeneralisation like 90% of people being something, even in informal situations, helps a lot.
proud to be the majority 💪💪
Snark mode activated: After reading through the "Threads Federation" comments, and seeing what opinions/comments are currently most popular, I'm going to go with YES.
But jokes aside, my actual personal opinion is no.
It definitely seems like 90 percent of people will twist themselves into knots to find a way to defend their beliefs regardless of how wrong those beliefs might be, morally and factually.
Admitting that you are wrong is hard.
can't say about rest of the population but when I read about some great people, I feel there's too much to learn and too little time.
and it happens every single day.
The last time someone said they felt this way they later removed all doubt they were a secret asshole, and had no empathy one major presidential election later. Take a close look at the person you are and what you want to be.
You live in Ohio? Florida?
Florida license plates slogan says Ignoramus State
Let's be honest, it's because the yanks dominate Lemmy and Reddit and I've had custard that's less thick than most of them 😂😂
And the lettuce was less thick than the PM it outlasted.
I think they haven't tapped into their potential intelligence.
More like 99.
That's because you don't realize the stupid things you're doing or thinking.
The scientific method is the only way we know to reliably discover actual facts, and even with it it can take decades to see through some bullshit we consider as facts.
If you add manipulation, déception and lies, you can't blame people for being mistaken or stupid. You can blame them for being assholes though.
op, it's not just you, i promise. 🙂
i encourage you to watch this in it's entirety. while it covers a different life story, it explores some avenues of what you are possibly feeling when you ask this question.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmI_VBp9QU0
You, of course, are firmly in that 10%, I assume.
So our brains were crafted to intake "reality" at a specific speed and quality. We can't see things at the atomic, much less quantum reality, nor understand the massive scale of the planet, much less the universe. Most "facts" are more beliefs from what others have suggested to be, than individually researched facts. Even our scientific method is a bit wanting in this area, since if we hear X, how can we prove X? We just need to take other's word that they did the correct process, didn't lie during any steps, didn't have any bad data unknowingly, especially in a culture where reproducibility is not a high priority so most scientific papers are not thoroughly tested and retested
That's roughly our skeletal social structure around "facts", and we're heading face first into a world of deep fakes and misinformation, to an extent never seen before in humanity. So maybe we should all extend each other a bit more patience and kindly help each other through these uncertain times
by looking at their lab notes and repeating their experiment and seeing if we can make the same observations. if they lied about their process (see the guy that claimed he made a room temp superconductor...) they get caught out.
I think you thoroughly misunderstand the process involved. yeah, there's more emphasis on being first... but no... there's definitely still verification. Oh. and. yes. we can image atoms.
Yeah, I'd second this. The scientific method is very thorough.
So thinking on this more, there are many studies that are impossible to replicate, either due to time, money, or team size. Think about weather studies, no human lives long enough, so we have to push the belief back on the original data being accurate. Human studies that span millions of people are also hard for small teams or individuals to replicate. Also hard to have a particle accelerator for most people, so we have to trust the accelerators function properly, the data collected is not malformed and the interpretations are also correct (the last bit is what we could possibly double check if we had direct access)
I love the scientific method as well, but I think we still have some limits. Even if we had infinite time, but without infinite resources we might not be able to replicate everything "scientifically proven" (and even then, due to space time curvature, it might not be possible if infinite time and infinite resources had a fixed physical point, but that is probably Einsteinian philosophy)
Also, please prove me wrong. I'd rather believe the scientific method was 100% true, no joking.
Agreed, science is essentially set up as a competition such that disproving important things is also rewarded; reproducibility comes up more for niche fields
Totally agree that most of the tools are there, but how many trials have you personally duplicated? The average person?
That doesn't make the scientific method wrong. If someone isn't following the scientific method, that's on them, not the science.
You're right that science doesn't ever really prove anything per se. The best it can do is come up with a useful model that we can use to make predictions. The neat part is that this is extremely practical. You can take prediction X and apply it in the real world, so you don't have to take someone at face value. For example, you know the theory of electromagnetism is more or less accurate because we have phones that extensively use those principles. And if that isn't sufficient evidence, the present year is literally the best year ever for you to most easily test the theory yourself.
When i'm the bad guy because I know that any person who is pregnant is a woman.... yeah
You are the embodiment of Dunning-Kruger.
see, anytime i say something like this you folks just say something like that. You don't have facts behind you, you have an idea that psychologists came up with in the 1950's, that's it.... but sure, just keep insulting me and saying " i can't believe you believe this, what an idiot!" while proving nothing except that your words speak everything about you and nothing about me.
All of "facts" is something someone told you and you believed based on their presentation. A lab coat and clipboard makes the fact no less wrong than a robe and candles. The stuff in textbooks is written by people with an interest in controlling your behavior. The best lies are sprinkled with truth.
I have literally zero means of believing basically anything anymore.