Roku’s Ultimatum: Surrender Jury Trial Rights or Lose Access to Your TVs
Did your Roku TV decide to strong arm you into giving up your rights or lose your FULLY FUNCTIONING WORKING TV? Because mine did.
It doesn't matter if you only use it as a dumb panel for an Apple TV, Fire stick, or just to play your gaming console. You either agree or get bent.
Time for a class action suite.
Noooooooo, you just signed that right away! /s
“My cat stepped on the controller, your honor. I never actually saw or agreed to those terms.”
I hope the suite (sounds like sweet) has snacks because I’m hungry. We’ll be waiting there while the law(suit) is pending.
Smart TVs were supposed to be better than dumb TVs.
Now it's the complete opposite.
Worst part is, now you can't find a dumb TV anymore. The closest thing out there are "commercial signage displays" which are just dumb TVs with limited inputs and usually without remotes, but 25-50% more expensive because "commercial" (and because they won't be able to continue making money by showing you ads and selling your data) and a lot of retailers won't let you order one without a business account, or force you to order in bulk.
And every Neanderthal I complain to is like "but smart TVs have so many more features," like, bro, I can make any TV the smartest fucking TV in the world by plugging it into the desktop PC I'm gonna keep right next to it anyway. All the "smart" bullshit just gets in the way. I've yet to encounter a smart TV UI that didn't require a dozen button presses to change inputs and spend two seconds or more re-drawing the UI with EVERY INPUT because they put the cheapest processors they can find in these pieces of shit.
Commercial displays cost more because backlight testing and ratings double or triple. You’re paying more for longer uptime since your display is likely to run 12+ hours a day straight and not for 1-2 hours a day with an occasional 8+ hour usage. You’re also paying actual cost, but a lot of it really has to do with testing and materials that are built to survive consistent and frequent usage, plus centralized management. Lots of people assume it’s the same shit, but it’s completely different and it shows when you buy a consumer off the shelf display and put it in production.
Computer monitors are dumb tv
Good luck finding a 65 inch computer monitor
Here you go.
I mean, thanks for the link but, if you actually try to find it on Amazon for example it doesn't exist. So that's not terribly helpful.
It's also three times the price of a 65 inch 4k TV.
No, the 65 inch 4K TV is three times cheaper because of the smart features. They sell the data they collect from you, and the ads.
The thing is 5 years old so that's hardly surprising. I just googled 65 inch monitor and this was the first hit.
Just checked Geizhals and apparently there's none currently, the largest is the HP Omen X, 64.5". Close enough though I'd say. There's 55 monitors 46" and higher but only 7 52" and higher.
At that size I'm obliged to ask if you don't want a projector instead.
oh no its not on amazon it must not be real
Projectors are so easy. Currently watching Hulu on an 85" screen.
as a projector owner myself, i would not say “so easy”. they are a lot more work to set up, are more unsightly in living spaces, require light control, require more maintenance and cleaning, and even after all that the picture quality is still never going to approach a decent HDR panel. It’s only really worth it if you need/want a 100”+ picture, otherwise you’d be better off with an 85” TV.
Not to mention many of the high end projectors now have the same smart tv features built in
microcenter has some absurdly expensive monitors.
Yes. I want one. Not sure why. But I do.
Show me a 50 inch computer monitor with speakers and multiple hdmi inputs, and I’ll agree with you.
Here you are. Included everything 46"+ because 49" are common and the next category is 52" up where things get rare. Both of these are gigantic and have 4 HDMI ports. Neither have displayport which disqualifies them in my eyes because this kind of shit.
Why would you want speakers though. I mean computer monitors usually come with them but the less said about them the better.
Congratulations on finding a €1500 dumb TV.
Skipping the first couple because they're ultrawide (probably not the best for TV usage) the cheapest one is the GIGABYTE AORUS FO48U. 2xHDMI, 1x DisplayPort, 1xUSB-C, about a thousand euroons. Expensive? Well, it's OLED. So is the equally-priced LG UltraGear OLED 48GQ900-B, Three HDMI plus DisplayPort.
Also they're not dumb TVs they don't come with tuners, a PCIe version will run you about a hundred bucks, plus the rest of your media server. Or something like 20 bucks (seriously) for a receiver, more like 60 if you want a triple-tuner (DVB-C/T2/S2) that runs Linux (double-check that the bootloader is unlocked, though, can't be arsed to). And yes of course they're more expensive they're not cross-financed by showing you ads. Do you want a TV or a billboard?
I've heard that if you want a dumb TV, you buy a smart TV with input priority on the hdmi and never connect to the internet.
How accurate is that?
I wouldn't know, as I've been blessed with a couple of dumb tvs from the golden age of dumb tvs for the last 10 years.
Some smart TVs need to be connected before they'll even start.
The key thing is to make sure you look into that stuff before you buy.
My TV is from the before days, and when it dies I'm not sure what the plan will be. Possibly a large monitor at 3x the price.
Or better yet, buy it and then return it as defective, ideally repeatedly and gathering a whole bunch of other people to do the same en masse, until companies start losing so much money on this shit that they're forced to be less shitty.
If only they weren't so heavy...
Found the youngster or missed a sarcasm tag. I remember a time when my 50 inch was considered leading class for weighing “only” 60 lbs, my tvs before that one all weighed over 100 lbs (CRTs). I literally unironically can throw most tvs upto 65 inches just over my shoulder, and if the boxes weren't so awkwardly big I could carry a few at a time. TVs may be a lot things but not heavy, most 43 inch tvs are under 20 lbs now.
My hisense google tv connected to an open wifi network and updated without being told to. The update broke CEC and hdmi arc. I cannot adequately express my rage at this moment.
I have no experience with them, but FYI a bunch of people were recommending sceptre for dumb TVs in other threads.
Sceptre makes dumb TVs.
They are pretty decent too, for the price
What I don't get about smart TVs is why you can't use it with your phone. That's one of Kodi's best features. You can just type using your phone keyboard. Typing with a TV remote is a fucking NIGHTMARE.
Can't you plug in your computer into an HDMI port and simply not use the "smart" features?
In most cases, no. You have to use the built in "smart" software to change inputs.
That sucks. I guess I gotta keep my TV running as long a possible then. It's a smart TV, but I can change ports without the smart features. In fact the smart TV part of it is basically like another port, but I have set to use HDM1 as the default when starting up and I never have to look at the smart interface. TV is over 5 years old now, the smart interface probably runs like shit by now.
Yes, you absolutely can. Or you can use pihole to block ads/updates. Or you can use a raspberry pi with kodi. Or a streaming stick. Or you can use it normally.
Just make sure you buy from a store with a return policy that let's you test the TV for your use case. Which in the EU is any online retailer, for 14 days.
They're also brighter and don't burn in as easily
You can (or at least could) put Bravia TVs into “pro mode” and turn off all the shit.
I have always opposed smart TVs. Most of my reasoning is because the UI is almost always dogshit slow because the hardware and software is thrown in as an afterthought. But I'll add this to my reasoning for not getting a smart TV.
A signage TV with a streaming stick/box is perfectly fine for what I need. Jellyfin does not care what I'm playing.
Edit: Also, I did not even notice that there was no option to reject this. It is just a close button. There is no way this shit is enforceable.
I haven't looked into it, but there's got to be some open source firmware for a lot of these TVs, right? To improve the UI and remove all spyware and bloatware?
Smart TV was always a dumb idea. Better to control your own equipment.
The worst part is that all these Smart TVs run Linux, whose GPL license was explicitly designed to prevent this sort of user-hostile bullshit. Unfortunately, because the Linux contributors decided to stick with version 2 of the license instead of converting to version 3, it's stuck with a loophole that allows companies to get away with this abuse.
It's a goddamned travesty.
The GPL ensures user software freedom for us to remove this crap by requiring them to share their source code. Using Linux doesn't mean they have to follow the GPL unless they make modifications to it.
You need every software contributors to agree to a license change unless the license gives an upgrade option. Most contributors had no choice but to use GPLv2 as it wasn't "GPLv2-or-later" to start with, maybe it was posdible at one point but they didn't want to anyway.
That's not quite the issue.
First of all, the GPL requires you to make the source available if you distribute the software, whether you modify it or not. And in fact TV manufacturers do provide source code, if you dig through their websites to find the disused basement lavatory with the sign saying "beware of the leopard."
Second, the issue is that the source code isn't actually going to work if you try to compile it and install it on the device, because they have DRM to prevent anything other than what the manufacturer has cryptographically signed from being allowed to run. See also: Tivoization.
That's correct. My response was intended to point out proprietary software can run on Linux and GPL doesn't apply.
I have read arguments in favor of GPL v2 over v3 and found them unconvincing.
They are. But not for customers.
I wish there were dumb options but since they're all subsidised with loads of ads, they're either unaffordable or plain unavailable. They just don't make them for the consumer market anymore, there's no demand for it. So they took advantage of that and market the dumb TVs as business TVs at huge markups, like 5+ grands for basic 4K no HDR no VRR no nothing, and they won't even sell it to you without a registered business account.
Those displays are not televisions - they are for menus at restaurants. They cost a fortune because they are low volume, high reliability devices that come with service contracts and repairable components.
I don’t connect my TV to the internet. Problem solved.
I used to develop smart TV apps.
I still only own dumb TVs. I do not need that bloat.
Technology in general is supposed to make our lives easier. It seems many things these days do the opposite.
Always was. Just took a little time for the reasons to be apparent to more people.
I think you're qualified for a full refund in most regions if you disagree with the new terms.
Send them a letter via registered mail stating that upon receipt of said letter they waive their right to waive your rights.
That sounds like some sovereign citizen thing
Similar things have worked in countries that aren't so under the thrall of the mighty corporation. I recall some guy in ... Russia? who struck out and reworded a bunch of penalty clauses for a credit card offer he got and mailed it back to the bank, which accepted it and issued the card. Cue much hilarity as he racked up a bunch of charges and then got it thrown out in court. (Actually, here's a link.. They eventually settled out of court for an undisclosed sum.)
Anyway, I live in Australia so my response to all these kinds of attempts at removal of my consumer rights is a drawn out "yeah, nahhhh"
NOTHING SUSPICIOUS HERE. DO NOT FEAR. SIGN AWAY FUTURE LEGAL PROTECTION BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING TO FEAR.
Just an FYI, although they aren't physical products like this Roku, many apps and digital services have added the very same binding arbitration clauses recently.
The McDonald's app for one. I ended up deleting the app after it tried to force me into binding arbitration and I didn't want to go through to opt-out process for marginally cheaper, shitty food, so I just deleted the app altogether and haven't eaten there since November.
Watch out for it if you drive for doordash or ubereats as well. I opted out of both, although they claimed you couldn't opt out in an new contract when you didn't before (a bunch of BS, if the current contract you are about to sign says it supercedes all others, you can't make the lack of an opt-out on a previous contract hold up).
On-going services might make sense for these shitty enough clauses, but to be strong armed into it for physical product you bought free and clear ... Disgusting.
It's like all these companies are locking themselves down to minimize legal exposure because they know that their services and products are getting more awful or something.
I legit don't know how binding arbitration can be legal.
Agreeing to terms of actual usage of the product, I understand. Like for a pogo stick, assuming your own risk of injury.
But I don't know how they can legally just say that suing is impossible.
I do not think that this can be legal, if you have already agreed to terms.
Surely they can just say from now on, thing you have used for a year is not usable unless you promise not to sue us.
Surely that ship has sailed?
Pray they don’t alter them any further… or we’ll all end up riding a unicycle in a pink dress.
That sounds like fun though!
gender bending is played out; drab gray jumpsuits for everyone and no talking
the unicycles can stay as an approved method of personal transport
Where I live, the way contract law (at least in regards to employment) works is generally you can't alter terms (by imposing additional restrictions) after both parties have agreed to it unless there is some form of compensation provided for the restricted party in exchange for agreeing to those additional restrictions.
"My child, a minor, clicked agree when trying to use the TV I paid for. I have never seen this EULA."
Yeah, I believe I heard there was a case that had proved that judges have no interest in holding people to EULAs.
I don't think anyone is allowed to take away your right to being a part of a class action lawsuit as a requirement to use a TV. Recent SCOTUS shenanigans aside, I can't imagine a judge would let that fly.
If you own one of those and you're a US resident, contact your state attorney general.
Ken paxton? Lulz, he'd probably come after me for saying anything.
Before I even finished reading that comment I thought, “Fuck. Ken Paxton would probably just take it as inspiration to accept money from Roku.”
Congrats to those in other states though. I am envious.
Good advice, depending on state. I think there is something in MD law that says you can't sign away your legal rights.
Did you read it? That first paragraph’s last sentence refers you to the section which tells you how to opt out.
It would be hilarious if a lot of people did this. And requested confirmation of receipt, and kept stalking them for these confirmations.
Maybe the letter should be on a0, and a separate one for each member of the household.
I've requested confirmation and have only gotten it once or twice.
What I've started doing is actually just sending them their same exact terms via their corporate registered address (regardless of their instructions) with the arbitration clause and jury trial waiver and just about anything I don't agree to removed. I tell them so long as they continue to provide the services to me, that they implicitly agree to the terms I'm sending them, with any further updates requiring them to send a registered (not certified) letter.
I intentionally do not provide any way for them to identify my account except for the return address.
I figured if I ever had to go to court, one of these things would happen:
So far, no company has ever written me back or turned off my access to the site.
I suggest everyone do this because these forced arbitration clauses are very anti-consumer and we need to start clawing back our rights.
🫡🫡🫡
Godspeed soldier
I'm definitely doing it. Worth the cost of a stamp.
I don't even have a Roku TV just an Ultra hooked up to a monitor so not a lot to lose but it's the principal of the thing.
Any reasonable judge will look at this clause and come to the conclusion that Roku is not acting in good faith. It's so blatantly scummy to have a user have to mail in an opt out request on a consumable's EULA update that the consumer never asked for long after the initial purchase.
It’s enraging because information like the account email and TV model are sitting there available to the Roku OS. These could easily be appended to an email at the touch of a button, or transmitted to Roku Legal in an even more efficient programmatic way.
But noooooo, they need to force you to write the shit down with a pen because they know you won’t bother. Next time they want to sell you something, though? That’ll be one click.
I’d love to see a judge throw the book at some company for this kind of horseshit. Last time I refinanced my house I saw the page about opting out of marketing somewhere in the cloud of papers I signed, and meant to go back to it. I did, but it had such a complex table of options that I said to myself “I need to look at this with my glasses.” And then of course I forgot to do that and of course they sold my information everywhere. This is my own credit union that I’ve been with for 12 years, too.
That's an overly complicated procedure to opt out.
You gotta opt in, then send a fucking letter with a bazillion nitty gritty information.
First of all, shit like this should be made an example of, and it should as easy to opt out than to opt in. Otherwise, it is predatory
What an absurd burden to put on someone. If I can opt in electronically, I should be able to opt out electronically.
Which is the law in countries with consumer protections.
Surprised they don't want it hand-delivered at the top of a mountain somewhere.
What an episode (Piped)
In my pro consumer country there is an amazing law that states that any contract cancellation procedure cannot be more difficult than the contract sign-up procedure. This means it can’t be through different channels or have more steps.
I know what I'm doing tonight. Once I have the letter with all the details in alignment I'll post an update here to help others.
I just got that on my Roku device and clicked through it without even realizing because it was the exact type of pop-up and position and timing as when it informs me that the micro SD card has successfully mounted, and it took my brain a second to register that 1) the pop-up was much larger, and 2) I briefly saw a word that looked like "arbitration"
How can this be a legally enforceable contract?! Especially considering if I didn't agree, my device that I've already paid for and have been using would cease functioning and they sure as hell aren't going to refund my purchase from years ago if I refuse
I'd like to think it can't be but it's the US so who knows.
Changing the terms after buying the device and in a way that your kid could accept them by hitting ok on the remote is bonkers.
Yeah, that's some dystopian neo-feudalist horseshit I'd only expect to fly in a bunch of the world's most corrupt shit holes, including the USA.
They have more money to spend on lawyers is how.
I hate that this is so true
They can't prove you read it, maybe your child pressed accept. This is not legally binding in Europe
This is called a Deceptive Pattern (or dark pattern). This feature worked exactly as intended in your case.
It doesn't matter if it is legal or enforceable. Who's going to stop them?
I got this yesterday, as well. There's no way this could hold up legally, right? Like my 7 year old could easily just click through that, no way this is a legally binding contract to forfeit jury rights and right to sue.
..right?
It's not enforceable at all, but it's an extra step of litigation that the average consumer can't afford to wade through
Are you sure it isn't enforceable? Forced arbitration clauses are very common and I think pretty solid legally.
There have been US court cases where arbitration clauses were voided if they weren't prominently visible outside the box before purchase. Dang vs Samsung
Before purchase seems to be the big thing. LG is also under fire for this regarding fridges as they put it on the box but typically that wasn't seen prior to purchase (the fridge models on the floor are unboxed) and many people use delivery companies that do the unboxing before the item gets to the consumer.
badass, but I am not sure the FAIR act was signed into law. I am finding conflicting information https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/117/hr963
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/963
Yeah so it has passed the house but the Senate hasn't voted on it and therefore the President hasn't signed it and it isn't law?
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/963/all-actions?overview=closed#tabs
This is the latest entry ...
Dated 03/21/2022. It's been almost exactly two years since this motion. It's not going anywhere. Government sucks.
You never know, but if you stay cynical, stay beaten down, then definitely nothing is going to change.
Call your house representative member. Let them know you know of the existence of this, and would like to see it move forward.
If everyone did that, instead of just posting on Reddit/Lemmy, they'd see change.
You are completely correct. Before I do that, I would need to read the whole charter, to make sure they didn't sneak anything nefarious into it as they like to do. But then, yes, calling the reps should help some. Governments still suck, though. Most are no longer for the people en mass. Still, though, while governments may suck, they are made of people, and still have a people's heart, even if it has to be helped to grow a few sizes.
This comment has a direct link to the agreement that you can review, as well as the comment itself points out two clauses that might help you.
It’s meant to scare people from attempting anything
Pretty sure EULAs are unenforcable in the US since nobody can reasonably be expected to read every single one of them for every one that they agree to.
I think it's more that you have to purchase the item before you can agree to the EULA. That said, it's extremely rare for anyone to try and challenge them in court, and when they do they pretty much always settle so the court can't actually demand any changes to EULAs.
They are even more so on the US, maybe you were thinking of the European Union? Cause in the US you have no rights if the EULA says so.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ProCD,_Inc._v._Zeidenberg
The fact that this is actually legal makes me glad to live in the EU. Damn, this shit is bleak.
It probably isn't legal most places. EULAs are already considered fairly flimsy in terms of enforcement, but changing an EULA after you've already bought a device, in such a way as to reduce your statutory rights, is almost certainly a complete non-starter.
Is it really legal, though?
IANAL, so take this with a grain of salt, but from my understanding, Its legal, though it may be unenforceable. If I want to sue them, they will say I agreed to arbitration in the contract, I will ignore that and continue to file. They will counter-file that I agreed to arbitration by accepting the EULA and that the case should be dropped, I will counter-file that I only agreed to it under duress because it was either agree or throw away my TV and that the arbitration clause is invalid because of X, Y or Z. At this point either the Judge will decide to listen to arguments from both sides then make a decision or will decide based on the undisputed facts presented by both sides and will either invalidate the EULA and allow the lawsuit to continue, or will uphold the EULA and drop the case with prejudice, or will allow me to make another argument and drop the case without prejudice allowing me to re-file with a better case.
The issue is, is it worth it to spend that kind of time and money for it in the first place? If you don't have an open and shut case and can't file in a state where you can make Roku pay the legal fees, in general whatever you're trying to accomplish will cost you more than just getting off their ecosystem, which is what they are counting on. Since you would have to sue them just to see if you can sue them, it just adds extra time, money, and effort into suing them that it is more likely to deter people from actually suing and instead choosing to arbitrate under their terms which, depending on the ethical considerations of the company, could be fair or it could be heavily skewed in their favor. At which point you can decide at that point if you should sue and then will also have any evidence acquired about an unfair arbitration in the filings as well.
Either way, the legality is perfectly legal to be in an EULA, its enforceability though is mostly only backed by how much time, money, and effort it would take to bypass it. Like if there is an open door with a sign saying "Please use next door" and the next door leads to the same place as the open door. Most of us will just use the next door because its not worth the effort to deal with whatever issue might occur if we used the open door. But if the "next" door is locked, we'd just go in the open door because its no longer worth the effort to deal with procedures the company wants.
Thanks. What a fucked up system, man.
What even the point of making laws and regulations if corporate can just force you to waive all your rights?
That's one big difference between the US and the EU law. In the EU, they can't.
Whats the point of laws when they just get in the way of corporate interests and exploitation.
A court wouldn't uphold this
and by the time the court throws it out the TV I paid for has been disabled for months and I'm out a ton of money and time. A lot of people will just agree because defending your rights in this country is very expensive and cumbersome. They're counting on this idea.
There's a nonzero chance the SCOTUS would.
That's why unalienable rights are so important.
thats what the law is becoming. a way to enforce the will of the corporate state.
Because the laws and regulations have been influenced by lobbying by large corporations to suit them best.
I still can't comprehend why American just accepting that "lobbyists" are a normal thing.
Isn't that literally bribery in broad daylight to influence laws making decisions? And the fact that a corporate can "sponsor" politicians. You're supposed to making those laws to keep the corporate in line, not taking their handout.
Are there any other countries with the same "lobbying" practice?
These are fun, Australians can’t waive any of their rights, including consumer rights and rights to access the courts.
Also, it's illegal in Australia for a business to make "false or misleading representations" about those rights. Maximum penalty is 10% of annual revenue.
The contract isn't just unenforceable, it's just straight up illegal.
Wait, does that mean we could actually see some companies get punished for making improper terms and conditions?
I would really like to see companies get strongly punished for EULAs/etc that turn out to be illegal/improper.
I think this is true in any civil country...
yup the US seriously is not a civil country. i would know, i live here.
Frankly, seeing how you people are treated as a employees or as a customers, sometimes I doubt it...
👋
Checkmate.
Check, mate!
Shit like this is why my LG C1 is restricted to LAN access only in my router (local network for automation purposes) and can't communicate with the internet.
Ditto with my printer. Print over LAN: sure. Printer connect to internet: hell no, that's the first-party version of printer malware.
Especially when printers ask you to waive your class action rights just like this.
Makes sense, when they illegally push straight up malware that sets the ink flow rate to 0 should non-geuine ink cartridges be detected. This will destroy/clog the print head if attempting to print for too long.
Yes, I reverse engineered your fucked up Linux 2.4 (!) based firmware, Epson. Your printer is printing nicely offline with refillable cheap ink. Fuck you, I won.
Sorry about the rant, it had become personal at one point.
Congrats :) The idea that a few software bits are between you and getting a pile of junk working is infuriating. Did you extract and modify an image from flash or find a way in live?
I had a .bin where the change hadn't been implemented and one after. Was using file carving tools as I was just trying to figure out what was going on. Probably spent too much time, but once I found out what it was doing, I was pretty mad. I tried to just corrupt the firmware to force a fallback to a "safe" state, but eventually I had to look into reverse engineering the binary that seemed to be controlling different things, such as the genuine ink check and things like that. Many hours of trial and error staring at the xxd and gdb output, semi randomly breaking things, until I seemed to break the right thing. Was bit tricky to get around the firmware signing, but eventually got that worked out too by tricking it into not checking (very old firmwares for that printer weren't signed) and accepting the 'new' firmware, with a much higher version number, as that's also one thing it checks to prevent downgrading.
Tools used as far as I remember were
binwalk,foremost,autopsyradare2I took the wifi chip and antenna right out of a roku TV. I don't even want it broadcasting its MAC out to the world, fuck that
Here in Brazil, EULAs (they are called adhesion contracts here) can only deal with the way service is provided and cannot limit consumer rights in any way. Even if the contract has these types of clauses, they are considered void by default.
These types of things never fly here.
The same is mostly true in the US. The companies use them to scare people into settlements. But it does depend on the state.
Binding arbitration is not only a thing, but has been upheld by the courts as enforceable.
It depends on your state. The verbiage that works on one state doesn’t necessarily work in another.
Isn't this equivalent to those trucks that have "stay back 300 feet - not responsible for damage" signage, when in reality they are legally responsible if their load isn't secured?
it certainly hasn't been tested in court yet, at least not that I've been able to find. These EULAs are often just corporate wishlists and until they go in front of a judge it's difficult to know what provisions will actually stick. I hope that they don't have the ability to bait and switch EULAs but this is America, some judge somewhere might take it upon himself to protect my freedom to have my TV remotely disabled after I pay for it.
There have been US court cases where arbitration clauses were voided if they weren't prominently visible outside the box before purchase. Dang vs Samsung
"This is the type of shit I be talking about" ---dmx
Iirc wasn't that one on the box of a fridge, but the people who installed it deboxed it first and then Samsung tried to argue that the customer was still bound by a EULA they never knew existed?
That's another one still working through the court.
Then I really wish there were regulations over what kinds of things you're allowed to put in a contract. If there were punitive measures for putting things in contracts that anyone should know is not enforceable, then maybe companies would think twice before putting language like this in.
There are some regulations. A contract can be ruled unconscionable by a court, which is basically saying "no one in their right mind would ever agree to this so we're not gonna enforce it". Contracts have to give both sides duties (things they have to do) and consideration (things they get for performing the duties), so no court will enforce a contract that doesn't materially benefit both sides in some way.
But I agree with you that there should be some sort of blowback to putting together purposely overreaching contracts and then counting on people not knowing their rights or not having the resources to enforce them in order to profit from an illegitimate contract.
Yeah, that second paragraph is more what I was thinking (terrible phrasing on my part). The issue is that fighting these contracts in court is risky - you might lose, and even if you don't, it's a big commitment to fight a legal case against a large company no matter which jurisdiction you're in.
To put it another way, look at it from a game theory perspective - there's plenty of benefit from putting these terms in, and no downside whatsoever. So the optimal move for vendors is to put garbage like this into the contact.
kek
I thought I linked to my blog post about it, but it just used the image
Roku’s Ultimatum: Surrender Jury Trial Rights or Lose Access to Your TVs
I wonder why Roku make you sign this agreement out of the blue. I think they're about to drop either an acquisition announcement, or news they were hacked.
I of course signed it like an idiot. I hate this cyberpunk present.
My money is on a data breech - happens all the damn time.
Was it your or you're 8 year old who was just trying to watch some cartoons? 🤔
You are right there is something coming though
I'm really surprised about this. Amazon got called on their arbitration clause so much that they removed it because it was so expensive.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazon-faced-75-000-arbitration-demands-now-it-says-fine-sue-us-11622547000
Roku is practically asking for people to do the same to them. They could even do it about this clause, IMO. (I am not a lawyer.) This is a really dumb clause to have these days.
Once again, Stallman was right. (Also Corey Doctorow)
Smart TV's are stupid scams. I quit watching the big screens in 2018. My phone is larger, at the distance I am comfortable laying down, than the 72in screen on the wall in front of me right now in my family's living room. In the USA, without LUFS regulations, I'm not interested in watching any content embedded in corporate media advertising streams. (Tom Scott LUFS YT, Wikipedia: LUFS)
Mate, the eye strain of staring at a screen 5" from your face is monumentally higher than being able to relax your vision while staring at a monster screen.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
YT
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I'm open-source; check me out at GitHub.
Some of us like to watch with other people.
Well some of us got no other people, so ha! /s
Been there. It sucks. Best of luck finding your crowd.
I am not a lawyer, but would such a contract be enforceable? To my untrained eye this has a lot of similarity to the unenforceable NDAs I keep on hearing about when people try to bully others into being quiet about crimes.
I've been saying in other threads; if it has an internet connection you don't own it, you use it with the parent companies permission
That's not a great metric. Plenty of devices connect to the Internet without sacrificing user privacy or freedom. It's not connectivity that ruins the product, it's where on the Internet that product connects, and if you are allowed to have control over how the product works.
We need to have better literacy about proprietary software, walled gardens, automatic updates, and the consequences to the user experience if you become dependent on these kinds of products.
But I don't have much faith. Microsoft puts ads on the start menu and inside of Solitaire, and Windows remains solidly the most popular OS. People overwhelmingly let enshittification happen without serious resistance.
If they do, it's only because the company allows it and all that is needed for that to change is one management decision.
If you don't have admin, and arguably source code, you don't own it.
The real question is what is Roku doing that might necessitate a jury trial in the first place.
The answer is spying and selling all your data to advertisers. Using ACR they can tell everything passing through that box and display adverts accordingly. Just what you want when watching a DVD.
I hope they like watching me masturbate to porn on my couch.
I don't think they can see that but by all means keep going
But if he's watching the porn on a Roku TV, they'll know what porn it is and what to recommend next.
Ohhhh...what site can I see that? Let's plan a sad afternoon together!
Sections 1(F) and 1(L) seem like the only ways out/around of this. (IANAL; the bolding emphasis was done by me.)
Any lawyers out there who can speak towards the three bolded parts?
The bigger thing here is no class arbitration or other representative proceeding. A lot of law firms do arbitration now against companies either with class arbitration or just thousands of individual arbitrations filed en masse. I wonder if this protects them from even the latter approach? It would be shitty if it forced you to do all the legwork on the arbitration yourself.
In any case I get this is happening now and why it's such a huge ultimatum is they know they're about to get hit with a ton of Video Privacy Protection Act suits. Turns out in the late 80s the US made video service providers that share video watching/rental/purchase history open to actual damages of $2500. So in the last year or two a ton of law firms have started filing class actions and arbitrations against all the streaming services and platforms.
If I recall correctly that law was quickly passed when a Congressman's video rental history was leaked.
At least in Australia, Consumer Law means you have grounds to walk the TV back for a full refund.
I think its up to 12 months.?
Depends on the price. I was able to return a 13 month old iPhone when apple announced the CSAM scanning (that they eventually abandoned) - I got a full refund. The phone costs enough that ACL considers it should operate for at least 2 years.
Recommendations to purchase a smart TV but never connect it to a network are futile, as well. Just like Amazon devices, smart TVs will find an open SSID and then phone home for updates without your knowledge.
My recommendation, when these kind of topics come up, is: either exchange your smart TV for a dumb one, or go to an electronics repair shop to have a board or two exchanged (depending on the make and model, older dumb components may be direct-ish replacements for smart ones).
EDIT: Another option? Try a projector! I was looking for dumb TV options online after writing up this comment, and someone on an old Reddit post recommended it. Great idea.
2nd EDIT: Someone else also recommended buying digital signage, another solid dumb display option.
If I ever have a device connecting to open networks by itself I'm snipping its wifi antenna
Yeah, connecting to open networks seems questionable. If it gets infected and you later connect it to your network, they are clearly at fault. So I doubt they do this.
Don't underestimate how dumb and greedy corpos can be
"Sorry, we ... maybe won't do it next time. Here's a sweety and a $5 coupon now please forget about it."
Where do you live that you have free wifi all around?
Newer monitors are also good options. Usually they have enough HDCP compliant ports these days and none of the bullshit.
Pair with a sound bar or surround sound system and you got a great setup.
Not necessarily. Never connecting it to the internet is much better advice than trying to block it's connections. After that it's not (usually) difficult to open the back of the TV and simply disconnect the wifi adapter itself. In my experience it's either a separate board connected by a ribbon cable or the same type of wifi adapter that is commonly found in laptops. If the antennas can be accessed then so can the adapter.
If my TV has been finding open wifi networks for updates, it sure hasn't made me aware of it. I've heard a lot of people say that they do this, but I've yet to see any proof that it's happening.
"Dumb" TV + PC + 🏴☠️. life is good
That’s what I have always done. I tried a Firestick once and found it terrible and tedious. Especially compared to M&K. I have a monster ass commercial quality smart tv and it will never access the internet on it’s own.
There are no dumb TVs if you want e.g. OLED. The closest you can get is a smart tv that you never connect to the internet. If you like 4k HDR it will still be a major pain..
My Roku TV's been reset to factory and not allowed on the internet for a few years now. It's a TV. It displays shit that I give it over HDMI. If you desire more than that you're part of the problem. I work in IT and that's why my home has physical locks, a 30 year old thermostat, and cameras I own with recordings on a DVR I own.
In my experience, people that use the phrase “you’re part of the problem” so loosely are often the most miserable jackasses anyone ever allowed into society.
People just want neat things. It’s not wrong to want neat things.
It's not wrong, but it's just terribly short-sighted. You're giving greed-crazed companies total control over a device that you own and nobody else should be able to touch.
Shiny things come at a cost. Sure, it may look convenient and super cool to have all these features, but it's important to understand the trade-offs. And this is just the tip of the iceberg - we don't even know what kinds of malice these companies will think of 5-10 years from now when these machines are even more widespread and probably come with even more invasive anti-user hardware capabilities.
It's not wrong... it's just very very naïve.
Most people don't get that this is even possible until it bites them in the ass like this.
Certainly my own parents wouldn't think to try and find a "dumb" TV in this market or to not connect the damn thing to the internet like it tells you when you power it on. They bought a TV that lets them watch Netflix.
By the same token, I don't except my fucking microwave to suddenly require that I accept a ToS in order to nuke a potato, or to suddenly start showing me ads in increasing amounts a year or more after I bought and paid for it.
Users aren't the problem. Shitty companies and a lack of strong legislation against this (or legislators being for it) are the problem. Nobody should ever be presented with a 50 page ever-changing EULA for a product they've paid for to access common functionality.
They're not a problem. They're not even naive. They're just not savvy on all things about a given technology especially when it comes up aspects of legal arguments on such.
The problem with not being part of the problem is that, in many cases, it means no longer being able to be part of vast chunks of society. Take it from me - I've been boycotting Big Media and most entertainment platforms for about a decade, and now I genuinely can't have any hobbies, besides of maybe activism, to share something with friends to begin with.
I'm sorry that you feel that way. I've got hobbies that may not interest you, but I feel un-hindered by being off the big platforms. Different generation maybe.
If that's the case, why not just go for a commercial display TV (like McD). They run virtually forever and you get them for very low prices.
Sure! I didn't know when I bought it that I'd come to this conclusion, but I learned over time. Been about 4 years or so since I bought it.
Never allow internet access to unrooted devices. My TVs are airgapped.
Ah yes, airgap the streaming device.
It can still stream video over the hdmi port just fine. This is about containing the rooted malware inside the tv's firmware from exfiltrating and then self destructing.
My TV streams my shows just fine via my xbox
Lol sure mine is waterboarded
Waterboarding, Earthed ground, Fire wall, Air Gap, Long ago, the four protections lived together in harmony.
But all that changed with the Fire Stick attached.
Till new Nvidia power connector started fires
I've sent mine to a CIA dark site for advanced interrogation.
I just posted about this in another community. I'll just include the link below so I don't double post.
https://lemmy.world/comment/8117710
https://community.roku.com/t5/Community-discussions/Roku-disables-player-with-attempt-to-coerce-arbitration-agreement/td-p/950649
This is why I don't buy "smart" TVs. They just want to data-mine you. And they can brick it whenever they want to, right over the Internet.
This is basically impossible unless you are buying commercial grade. Just buy whatever TV you want and never connect it to the internet.
So how do you get stuff from internet (anything from Netflix to HBO) to the TV? Connecting PC? Not very practical and convenient. Connecting something like android/apple tv box? How does this differ from having the same built in? Just asking, because I'm really curious.
The same way you would with a dumb TV. Connect a computer, game console, flash drive, DVD player, etc. It differs from built in services because these TVs collect a truly unparalleled amount of data on you. That seems harmless, until a) bad actors get hold of that information—you might not care if Roku knows everything about you including payment info, but some russian hacker is a different story—or b) the increasing power that the advertising industry holds over our society turns Fifteen Million Merits into a documentary
I haven't connected mine to the internet for a long time
This sort of thing isn't new but I've seen this particular one all over the place. Was there something different from this experience compared to the times that people have agreed in the past?
Opt out per the instructions!
They REQUIRE you to send them via snail mail.
It even specifically states that email is not valid.
Are there any good 4k 65"+ TVs without smart features? All the ones I see from LG Samsung Sony or other top rated TV manufacturers are smart TVs.
Don't they all essentially require internet access to be 'smart'? I have a LGTV (with WebOS, an app store, etc.) that I basically treat as 'dumb' by leaving it disconnected from our network.
Try look into the Samsung BEC-H. Its meant for signage so double check it has all the inputs you need but it comes in 65", 4k and no "smart" features.
I have a Samsung S90, and I was able to disconnect from my network after the initial setup. I also set it to default to the last HDMI input at startup, so I never see the TV OS.
I feel like this is subject to change, but a smart TV without an Internet connection seems to still be an option until they take it away.
My muscle memory is to hit power-right-ok to open youtube when I turn the tv on, most of the time without looking at it. The other day, it ended up still sitting on the default menu item after I did that. This must have popped up then. Something that can be dismissed without ever actually seeing it is certainly not enforceable.
This is suuuuuuuper common, most software makes you agree to some sort of arbitration clause. It doesn't mean that you can't sue them, it's just an obstacle to deter you.
Only where going to court could bankrupt you.
Every company has started doing that. Almost every EULA now has clauses forcing you to give up your right to class action lawsuits and jury trials and to use corporate-friendly mediation instead.
Hasn't that been a thing pretty much as long as EULAs?
That's why i use a LCD TV with a generic TV Box with Linux installed on It, lol.
I work for a streaming cable company and we keep getting calls about this. It's not us, its Roku. You have to use your tv remote. Sorry you threw it away. We emulate the basic functions, but why would we emulate an asterisk? You're cancelling because we can't fix a third party issue... gotcha.
So Roku is also a piece of shit too eh? I knew that their device I bought wasn't great but I thought it was just a cheap one. Glad I'm creating a media PC on Linux
What if you never connect it to the internet? Surely then it’s a just a dumb TV.
You'd never get this update...
I'm so disappointed in Roku lately. I still have a few streaming sticks in my house and one TV (I went all in), and I'm going to slowly replace them with something else.
I have an apple tv and that is nice, but I would love a little open source player that isn't an htpc or super pricey.
What about the one sided ability to change a contract??
A year from now Roku pop up says "Click to Accept" , the text says **"this contract means you'll have to give us your first born child? ** My reasoning says if they can do one then they can do the other. There is nothing that would prevent them from adding 'fees', or 'subscriptions' or simply turning off the device. (!)
This is egregious. We bought something. In normal commerce, the contract was set in stone at that moment. The seller can't roll up 2 years later, change the contract, force you to agree before you can use your device, and then say , well maybe if you beg, you can opt out.
Wait you're both waiving rights? Does that mean they can't sue you for copyright or anything also?
Yeah, it is basically to keep them out of Tue courts.
I don't think they really care how you use the roku, just that they don't get sued or class action'd
Tuesday courts? What happens on Tuesday?
I cannot fathom how you would use their services in a way that they would get legally upset about
Pray they don’t alter it further
Is it even possible to like reflash certain TVs cuz it kinda seems like you may be better off buying a large ass monitor with a pi or potato PC attached.
Just do a judge trial instead of a jury trial. Lol
I'm putting together a parts list for a new living room set up. We're getting a giant digital signage display and connecting it to my htpc.
yar har fiddle dee dee you are a pirate.
Happy I stuck with my older Samsung dumb TV. Great screen, decent size, flat enough to mount on a wall, and does everything I need it to do regarding hooking up my little i5/8GB baby office PC turned media hub. I don't care that it's only 1080p, looks just fine when I'm in bed and watching movies on it. Even when smart devices were first becoming THE thing to have, the idea of having to download updates for my TV got me thinking about the more nefarious aspects of such tech the future may hold.
I think a lot of it comes down to me just not being very materialistic, or needing my household devices to be internet ready with installed apps and no way of managing permissions or data harvesting. Even my cars are older, and were made well before integrated SIM cards and constant data collection, and I've no plans to upgrade any time soon. I guess I just never 'got' the appeal of having a smart device that wasn't just my phone (and even then, I barely use any apps on my phone outside a web browser (which eliminates the need for most apps anyway) and the camera.)