How would you feel if Beehaw left the Fediverse?

While I would understand your reasoning for doing so, I would be disappointed to see it happen. There's decent discussions on Beehaw that I enjoy taking part in, however if you guys decided to defederate or switch to a different platform entirely, I doubt that I would make another account somewhere else to follow. I like Beehaw's content, but I have enough accounts to keep track of these days after everything split from Reddit, so it would ultimately be a loss for me.

I'm not sure if this is a commonly-held opinion for those of us outside of Beehaw, though.

I'm subbed to some communities on Beehaw and I would miss them. But not enough to make an account on Beehaw to get them back.

Right now, we feel that Lemmy and ActivityPub have downsides that are limiting us from achieving that goal.

Could you expand on this? How exactly does these things prevent you from Being Nice, if that's the goal of your community?

Defederating Beehaw would not only weaken it as an instance, but remove its positive influence from the wider fediverse. The big platforms wield so much power and influence and money, the smaller upstarts need to connect as much as possible to stand a chance at relevance as a credible alternative. We're all better together. I really hope you reconsider.

I don't think you guys cared when you defederated from the rest of the fediverse and turned up your nose at everyone else. I'm not sure why you care now. You guys go and do your thing, but I don't think you're very relevant to the fediverse.

You speak very vaguely, and I don't think you're being fully honest with your reasoning, but by this point, I don't think it really matters.

You've already defederated lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works, so I don't care

I feel like I've given my answer to this question regarding Beehaw once before...

But as I see it, the main driving force and overall source of value for services like Lemmy, Kbin, Mastodon, etc., is federation. That is to say, federation among a wide variety of different users and servers across the fediverse using protocols like ActivityPub is what sets this entire thing apart from legacy centralized and corporate social media, like Reddit or "X".

I was initially on Beehaw myself and I liked the mature and kind atmosphere, but I ended up splitting for Kbin due to issues with defederation (on top of being curious and interested in Kbin as an alternative software to lemmy). But whether we're talking about "Beehaw.org" or "Kbin.social", in my view the federation is a huge part of the appeal, and I wouldn't see myself continuing to use a server if it cut itself off from the rest of the network, regardless of whether they did it for "good reasons" or not.

Like, if Beehaw wants to be just a significantly smaller and more highly moderated centralized alternative to Reddit, that feels like a pretty weak pitch which, at best, might end up with a community roughly the size of a classic forum. I'm not really interested in that. I want the Fediverse to succeed as a decentralized, open, scalable, and community-moderated alternative to legacy social media. Frankly, my interest in Beehaw as a community hinges completely on it being a part of that movement or not.

I can understand how federation may have posed significant challenges towards your goal of detailed moderation and creating a safe and friendly space, but only in the sense that you were possibly not fully prepared for the level of exposure to a large number of federated users. But even so, if Beehaw is ever to grow into something bigger (which, to be honest, is not a given, especially if you set out on your own as just another disconnected and insular social media website), you will eventually have to deal with the harsh reality that the kind of moderation that you're interested in doing is going to be a significant challenge as your community scales, federated or not. (For example, you may be prepared to moderate content in English, but are you prepared to moderate content in other languages? How will you know when someone starts spreading disinformation and hate speech in Burmese?)

Finally, I think you might want to consider the general movement towards federated social media. Between ActivityPub and the Fediverse, Meta's interest in federating Threads, BlueSky being developed around federation to some extent, federation support in things like WordPress, and a number of other social media platforms tip-toeing their way into the idea, I personally feel that there is a pretty interesting paradigm shift happening right now. Some of that has to do with moderation, responsibility and government pressure on big tech, I think.

But nevertheless, social media is gradually moving towards federation, and I think that's a good thing for the internet as a whole. You nice people at Beehaw will really have to search yourselves to determine whether you see the value in federation (both in terms of connecting people, but also in terms of allowing various communities to self-moderate to some extent) or not.

I do hope you'll stay, even though it means facing the growing pains of moderation challenges sooner rather than later, because the fediverse is better with us all connected and communicating together. I'll be sticking with the fediverse with or without Beehaw, but I do wish you all luck in your goals should you decide to set out on your own.

Why do you care what other instances think about it? I'm honestly asking and expecting an answer here. This isn't a sassy question.

You built a wall and now you're asking people outside of that wall what it feels for you to leave. Well, I'd care if I could see what's inside the wall, but I can't. I tried subscribing and it was impossible.

So why do you care what people outside of your wall think? Again, I expect an answer here.

To be honest, I probably wouldn’t notice. I don’t think I follow anything on Beehaw and I don’t see much content from there. I tried to join a while ago when I first joined Lemmy, but was never approved. I kind of thought it was already a pretty closed off community, so it wouldn’t really change my opinion much. It would be sad for your users who will probably not receive benefit they otherwise would, but if that’s what they want, then either you’ll provide it or someone else will.

Edit: Apparently I don’t see anything from you because my instance was already defederated by you. I guess that explains it.

Good riddance, Beehaw is terrible. It was maybe the single biggest exporter of concern-trolling about lemmy.ml and to my knowledge still entertains absurdly reactionary comms for no reason (though I haven't brushed up on my lore in a while). Go make your blue Raddle.

More constructively: Having your "Northern Star" be "intentionally vague" is not a good practice. Having clear rules is a much better way to avoid falling into "what did the mod who reviewed the report feel like doing at the time?" arbitration issues. If you want to serve disenfranchised communities well,* then have that be the foundation and clearly define what that means and why you are doing it.

*My experience with this was that Beehaw was more about first world radlibs patting themselves on the back, but I digress

You don't really explain why activityPub is limiting you. It's hard to help you here.

My opinion is that Beehaw's philosophy seems to be fundamentally incompatible with the concept of federation.

You guys want a very specific community that's heavily moderated to ensure everything within it conforms with the "safe space" environment you wish to preserve. While that's your prerogative, the reality is that the vast majority of instances, and users on those instances, aren't going to come anywhere close to your standards, nor do they have any desire to. That means you're going to be continually fighting fires in terms of the moderation you'll have to do in order to preserve your community's ethos.

You guys want a walled garden community. Federation is the complete antithesis to this concept. You'd be better served by forum software, or a completely isolated Lemmy instance. The Fediverse as a whole may be better served by you guys doing this as well, since any major community hosted on Beehaw presently that others in the fediverse enjoy could disappear for everyone on your next whim of which instances you wish to defederate or when you leave entirely.

You'd be doing both yourselves and the wider fediverse a favor by going off and doing your own thing as you seem to want to do, in my opinion. Frankly I'm surprised you've not already done this a lot sooner.

After many hours of talks, it became clear that our overall goal could be achieved outside of Lemmy/ActivityPub.

Right now, we feel that Lemmy and ActivityPub have downsides that are limiting us from achieving that goal.

I have two questions.

1. What are your long-term goals for your platform?

2. What are the downsides to Lemmy/ActivityPub stopping you from reaching those goals?

Also to answer the main question I'd like for it to stay but at the same time, the last time I checked Beehaw had around 700-ish Monthly active users. That means there probably wouldn't be that much of an impact on the general discourse of Lemmy more broadly.

That seems like enough to sustain a pretty big community on a private server even if about half of you left. So if you guys do decide to leave I wish you the best.

I mean, the very fact that you're asking this on a different instance is kinda your answer.

Beehaw isn't relevant to the fediverse as a whole. I don't see there being any downside (to the fediverse) to y'all staying federated, to y'all staying with lemmy as your forum but defederating totally, increasing the instances you're defederated from, or abandoning the software for anything else.

Don't take that wrong, I'm glad someone is willing to try the experiment y'all are doing, it's a beautiful thing. It's just that beehaw has never been relevant to the rest of lemmy. That was never the goal (as you said). I have an account there that I rarely use because it isn't really part of the fediverse at all. Beehaw is its own thing that might as well not be connected.

I dunno that it's a good use of resources to try a new forum solution, when lemmy is viable for that currently, but that's a different subject than what you're asking.

And, since your goals don't include being a kind of example, nor existing as a beacon on the fediverse for people of like mind to find, I would say just defederate totally.

Without the loaded malice of some of these comments, sincerely, I forgot beehaw existed. It looked like the place to go during the migration and was constantly getting good word of mouth on all the Reddit move channels. Then the barrier to entry went up with the essay application, which was 100% fine as a decision, but obviously made it a hassle for the masses trying to find a home. Couple that with no open community creation, leaving no landing spot for niche communities and I went elsewhere.

But even after taking a shotgun approach and making accounts on multiple instances when stability and federation was still struggling, beehaw started defederating from everything. Again, 100% your decision. But the reasons were often blatantly showing that beehaw was not willing to engage in the learning process of this new interface with the rest of us.

So, again no malice, I literally forgot beehaw existed till seeing this post. So if your admins and users think you can achieve whatever elsewhere, I don’t see why you shouldn’t.

i've enjoyed the beehaw peeps, but im certainly not going to make an account. the instance would be missed.

i am moving away from walled gardens, not towards them.

Beehaw seemed too fast and heavyhanded with defederating a while back. IMO, defederation is really a "last resort" style of option, not a "first response," so Beehaw using it essentially as a "first response" to some of the bigger instances kinda told me that Beehaw wanted to be off on an island by itself. Like it wanted to be a private forum instead of a Lemmy instance.

I don't miss Beehaw, and Beehaw disappearing from Lemmy wouldn't matter to me, because as far as I am concerned it kinda already did that.

The purpose of Lemmy is to be open and connected, not a private walled garden. If it doesn't fit what you want, then use something else.

Basically, what is there for 90% of Lemmy users to miss, if you effectively banned 90% of Lemmy users by defederating the biggest instances in the first place? They already dont interact or see your content, unless they're using multiple accounts, which would be no different if Beehaw wasnt a Lemmy instance at all.

What's a Beehaw?

Which one was beehaw?

I thought you had been defederated for months now

Beehaw is my home in the fediverse, and I'm happy here. I like that they try to maintain a positive community. But if Beehaw left the fediverse, I wouldn't come along. Which is a change from thinking I might last time I saw this topic come up.

If beehaw ends up in a silo I think it will just have too little to offer for me. And that's ok. This isn't about me, it's about creating a safe space for your disenfranchised users.

I hope Beehaw stays, but I understand if they don't.

I'd leave Beehaw 🤓

It's not nearly big enough to be its own thing, and since the "quality" of posters is no better than other instances at this point, there woild be no reason to stay. I would certainly miss the communities there tho.

Also, Tildes is not a very good site to look up to. Why would anyone want another admin power-tripping place online?

I had assumed beehaw had already defeded. Since I've been using lemmy, there has never not been some discussion about beehaw and their federation/defederation choices and discussing the intricacies of those decisions. For whatever reason, I haven't really seen anything from or about beehaw since joining this instance so I presumed they defeded. Prior to that, it seemed hit or miss whether or not I'd get the privilege of seeing beehaw.

All that is to say, with the way you've handled moderation, if you left the fediverse it would probably just make everyone's lives simpler. It's going to be a "shit or get off the pot" from me, dawg.

We decided that our ‘Northern Star’ or guiding principle would culminate as ‘Be Nice’ with purposefully vague/flexible interpretations. Our overall goal is to provide a safe space to disenfranchised persons.

Oh look, someone failed to absorb one of the lessons of Letter from Birmingham jail

https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Beehaw is cool but I don't see it as a unique enough thing to draw me off the fediverse. To me it's just reddit if every user was a reddit mod. The discussion is only nice because anything else is met with heavy handed moderation. Since beehaw is defederated from majority of the fediverse it would make no difference if they left.

I would be disappointed. I like the content from Beehaw and I enjoy being able to see it in my federated feed. I also think Beehaw fits a good niche in the Fediverse that would otherwise leave a hole if it was not there. I also think beehaw is a good influence on the Fediverse as a whole.

Have you considered that a part of your goal could be to make things better for disenfranchised people in a more general way? I think your presence in the Fediverse has a positive effect that goes beyond your own instance. And I think that's worth preserving.

🤷‍♂️

Instances will come and go.

I would like to hear more about what the limitations of ActivityPub are that you feel justifies taking away all the federated lemmy content from your users though.

Speaking as an admin, the only thing I view as my responsibility is removing spam/scams and making sure the instance is running and improving. Taking away/moderating what our users can see is something we want to avoid as much as possible (as long as it doesn't break instance rules of course), so what your team is discussing sounds quite radical.

Lol. Lmao even.

Y'all defederated my instance a while ago, and while there were a couple solid communities on Beehaw, I don't feel like I'm missing anything significant, and I'd basically forgotten about you until just now. Lemmy is fine without you. And we'll always have Blahaj.

You’re doing Truth social but with nice people. Very few people want to hang out in an echo chamber.

The foundation of your instance is a handful of sand, so I don’t think it matters if you stay or go.

Is Beehaw even really in the fediverse when you don't federate with almost anyone?

lol, your wannabe sunk as soon as it became apparent Reddit wasn't going anywhere.

yall are made up of butthurt anticommunists lemmygrad chased off lemmy years ago, you won't be remembered at all

You didn’t say why. Bit pointless having a discussion about nothing

Beewho?

Didn't that instance pre-emptively defederate Hexbear and Lemmygrad for not being liberal hellholes? Lol

I doubt I'd notice.

I think it would be a real shame, and would fragment the fediverse as a whole - some of Beehaw's communities are some of the best on the Fediverse (and I really appreciate the work of the mods of communities on Beehaw), but the Fediverse / Lemmyverse is a lot bigger than just the Beehaw instance, and I really like being able to participate in communities from all over. Having to create accounts separately on lots of walled garden instances is probably not worth it, so I think it would make both Beehaw and the rest of the Fediverse weaker.

Overall I'd be sad about it, and discourage, but I'm sure the fediverse would live on despite it, in a weakened form.

Perhaps the real question is why would you consider doing that? It seems like a lose/lose for everyone. Would you be able to elaborate on what the exact problem you are trying to solve is? Perhaps the community could help you come up with a better solution.

Lol, so good I left Beehaw already. Do whatever you want now, not going to miss it, neither their admins.

To all the thoughts here already I’m going to ask something that may be wrong and may also be somewhat rude and or hurtful to the person/people it implicitly targets (which isn’t my intention unfortunately) … but which I feel is the tiny elephant in the room:

How much is the beehaw motive to leave the fediverse driven by a small and relatively unchallenged voice from technical person/people in the beehaw team who doesn’t like the fediverse and Lemmy for a bunch of technical reasons and who is certain that they can achieve better some how?

The relevance of this is that I honestly think the fediverse is somewhat plagued by the aggregate effect of the mentality of indy tech people to prefer to do their own thing and to find others’ work and cooperating with it/them insurmountable distasteful. Basically mass NIH.

Which is not problem on its own. Tech people do great things and being motivated to do what they want is pretty fundamental. Hell this is probably half of what’s going on with Lemmy’s development.

But beehaw’s goals are not technical, arguably not at all even to the point of being in spite of technical factors as a “safe space online for the disenfranchised” has intrinsic tension I’d say. And it seems that you’re very reliant on the technical heroes that have kept your instance healthy.

Which means their own technical tastes and motivations might hold too much sway and their promises might be too convincing.

I’m not sure this will help your reasoning, but I figured there was small chance that bringing this might help. The reality may be that the essence of the beehaw project requires fighting the nature of technology.

it's nice when the trash takes itself out

It wouldn't affect me in the slightest since you've defederated from lemmy.world anyway. As for how I think about Beehaw leaving Lemmy as a whole... I think that you have your own visions of what your instance and your communities should be, and if you say Lemmy just isn't a good fit, then it isn't. So just do what you have to do, I understand completely and I wish you luck in all your future endeavors.

Whats a beehaw?

Why'd you even post this if you can't be bothered to interract at any point in the thread? Just leave bro.

Beehaw has already chosen not to be a part of the fediverse. There's no real purpose in asking us; only you can resolve Beehaw's identity crisis.

Beehaw seems designed with the intent of being a specific type of echo chamber. And there is nothing wrong with that. But the fediverse wouldn’t miss yet another echo chamber.

Do as you want.

Do what you feel you need to do. Beehaw was my first Lemmy instance, although I have since left. What I initially liked about it was that there was active moderation and the admins seemed to do a good job keeping things running. It was a chill place that didn’t really appeal to the more toxic types you run into on the internet. It was like a friendly little bubble and a good home base in the fediverse.

While I appreciated that toxic instances were blocked, I felt blocking instances simply because they didn’t have great moderation was a little too much. It meant I was missing out on a lot of good content too. I understand the decision but I realized then that the original Beehaw community was more content to be insulated than I was. For a lot of people there, it was more important to have their own tight community than to be part of the fediverse. There’s no hard feelings about it. I enjoyed my time on Beehaw and contributed to server costs. I found another good instance that’s better federated and manages not to have a bunch of nazi and racist garbage so it’s all good.

These conversations have been brewing for a while at Beehaw. I would imagine a lot of the people who don’t especially like the insulated approach have moved on to other instances or created alt accounts for when they want to interact with the larger fediverse.

I don’t think anyone will miss anything if Beehaw migrates to a non-federated platform.

beehaw deeze nuts

I'd laugh lol.

As a non-Beehaw I would like you to stay because I like nice people. But I understand if you have to go.

Since you all defederated from lemmy.world I don't see any posts from Beehaw, so from a practical standpoint leaving the fediverse wouldn't affect me in the slightest. On a personal level, you all should do what you feel is best for you community and I wish you good health, good fortune, and good luck with whatever you decide.

That would be great

it would be a net positive for the fediverse if beehaw left

I already mentioned this on an old Beehaw thread, that Beehaw's vision would be better suited to old-school forums, like phpBB, Invision etc (no Discourse please, it sucks). Forums are more conducive for long-term discussions and offer far better user access controls and mod tools.

General-purpose old-school forums are mostly dead these days unfortunately but I see an opportunity in Beehaw for them to make a comeback, and I would 100% support such an initiative.

I would guffaw if beehaw defawed

Are you looking for someone to convince you to stay? Lol

I hardly frequent any of your communities, but I enjoy the contributions of most of your users and will be sad if they go.

That said, I would consider staying on - and contributing to - the Lemmy software regardless of federation. We are all experiencing the same issues with lack moderation and other features, and I hate to see effort go to waste.

Who?

Your website will rot on the vine.

Most of the topics in interested in have moved off of Beehaw and communities have grown elsewhere. I probably wouldn't even notice if Beehaw left.

I say do what's best for you and fuck what everyone else thinks.

I started on beehaw but left for the current one, as I felt it was less about being nice and more about toxic positivity, very retrictive.

And since than I have not even once seen a beehaw community.

So id say go ahead, neither side likely will miss much, if anything.

I'd miss you guys. I've jumped in on conversations on your instance a couple of times and it always seems like a nice place

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

When you say "leaving the fediverse", do you mean leaving the platform/protocol altogether, or just defederating from everywhere?

Either way, I would think it'd be a loss for the community and the broader fediverse, but ultimately it's your decision. There seem to be some free speech absolutists ITT, but personally I think taking the approach of aggressive defederation is perfectly valid.

I'm curious, what benefit do you see in total seclusion?

I recall beehaw having some good communities when I was first on Lemmy this summer, but I haven’t seen much from there on Kbin or the lemmies I use - presumably because beehaw defederated for whatever reason. If you’re not going to be connected to the largest instances anyway, what’s the difference?

Sure, having a standalone forum is a legitimate thing to do, like it always has been since the start of the internet. Seems like it would be harder to grow the site without the network effect of the rest of Lemmy though.

Have you considered making the internet a better place and simply deleting it?

Walled gardens rarely survive long enough for it to matter, so do what to wish.

I'm on kbin, but have enjoyed the discussions I've had or read on beehaw. I've mostly lurked.

You're clearly trying to get social media right, and I respect that. Obviously it would be a loss for the fediverse if you left, however you are volunteers, it is your community. You owe the fediverse nothing. You should put the safety of your own users first.

If you do leave the fediverse for good, please let us know. I would consider joining beehaw or another forum/community to join/follow some of the discussions I've seen on beehaw. Especially discussions on sensitive topics that are harder to have in other parts of the fediverse.

The one thing I will say, is that leaving the fediverse will make you less known/accessible to people who need a safe online community. Of course, I suspect it'll also keep out some of the people who cause more moderation and safety concerns. So it's quite a dilemna.

The fuck are you asking non bee haw users for?

I replied to another user, but I'm sharing it in a main reply to add my voice to the base level comments.

I want a safe place to be, while looking out into a wider sea of content (albeit through the filter of Beehaw’s defederation, which I really appreciate). When the trolls and the assholes get too much, I like to be able to retreat back to just Local feed setting and be safe again. If beehaw was to be a separate platform, I’d lose that.

Beehaw is a shining beacon in an ocean of content, good and bad. I’d love that beacon to remain, so more people can find safety here if they need it.

From Beehaws docs on defederation:

We are simple with defederating: we do not allow hate speech, and we must consider our own limits when it comes to moderating. If an instance allows hateful speech or in our judgement has users who are too much for us to currently manage given the state of Lemmy, we defederate with it.

If the goal is to limit hate speech and provide a safe space on Beehaw, then I think you should defederate from the fediverse. I think however the value in providing a safe(r) platform for engaging with the rest of the fediverse to be more valuable, but I am personally in no need of such a safe space myself.

As a fellow lemmy.world user, I gotta say: Jesus Christ y'all are brutal lol

You cowards defed at the drop of a hat, just leave already snowflakes.

I think the fediverse would be better off without Beehaw, so yeah, get off Lemmy and go build your own platform by yourself. I wish you the absolute best of luck, and thank you in advance for taking all the worst kind of people off the fediverse with you.

bye bye we won't miss u

Sorry, I hadn't heard of your instance or seen any of your posts so I don't think I can answer.

Stop it, this is a bad idea.

I would consider the users of Lemmy disenfranchised, whether they were the OGs or the refugees who did not want to be part of a corporate structure that is Reddit.

As for your goal of being nice, you can be a private instance with a very detail form with long list of questions that applies to your values. This will cut down new users joining and only those that are willing to go through the process of joining will show the commitment.

Having said that, having a closed door policy on the fediverse defeats the purpose of being on fediverse. If you truly only want, how you define disenfranchised, then fediverse may not be the right platform and you will always be left wondering.

Personally I think it would be unfortunate. I like some of the communities on beehaw I'm subscribed to, but I'm not sure I'd bother to switch over. Even right now, many posts I see don't get any interactions, others just a few and that's with users from other instances. I'd imagine starting over would kill many of these communities off almost entirely.

Personally I'd be sad to see Beehaw go. I enjoy several of your communities and I think the wider fediverse would be poorer for it. But you need to do what's best for you. Best wishes to you no matter what you decide ☮️💙🙂

Can someone explain all the hate against Beehaw to me? I run a private instance, so I don't really keep up with Lemmy politics

Decently new lemmy world user here, never heard of BeeHaw before. Don't think I'll miss it.

I guess there is no need for further commentary on why the strict moderation of a "safe space"/walled garden cannot keep up with the growth of such an open space as activitypub.

So in response to the title, I would think this is fantastic news! You say your principle is "be nice", which I think is great and I wish it was the general norm, but from what I've seen and heard it would be more like "you better think like us, because we aggressively enforce political correctness and ideological censorship". It would be a pity to lose its users, but I simply hate to end up on beehaw by mistake and would be happier to see it disappear.

I abandoned Beehaw and went to Lemmy World because you made the decision to defederate after Reddit shat the bed.

So it wouldn't make much of a difference to me. I only left my Beehaw account dormant because that instance gave me the impression of being like yet another Tildes, and I kinda wanted to be with the main Reddit exodus crowd.

Don't know why you would ask here since it's a decision that should be made by your users for your users...

You will be missed. However, do your thing. I think you should first consider maybe adapt to your current situation and update your original goals. Evaluate your current goals instead of evaluating the tools to achieve past goals.

Beehaw right now:

If Beehaw defederates, I will no longer think or care about Beehaw, since at the end of the day, the power of federation is by far the coolest thing in the fediverse; I am not interested in joining another Reddit clone! No hard feelings though, do what you think is right!

I'm on .world, so I'm already defeated and it wouldn't impact me currently. Before we became deferred, I thought some of the communities there were good and it was a loss (though understandable) when we became defederated.

All that being said, I've often thought and said that Beehaw's lofty goal of a troll and harassment free space on the Internet wasn't well suited to having Lemmy as an underlying platform. I'd rather see you relocate someplace where you have a better chance of achieving your goals.

I wouldn't leave. Starting from scratch again would spin off too many users. Beehaw already has some subs that are already somewhat anemic. The fediverse still needs users and high-quality discussions since facebook, reddit, and digg ravaged the many forums of old that used to exist.

I like the policy of "Be Nice" even when I get annoyed that I can't down vote. Tho a ultimatum like this would make me switch to another server. Why? Well first of all Lemmy is supposed to be federated imagine if Google did this with gmail, it would not end well. Secondly even if I like content from Beehaw communities I do enjoy and contribute to other instances, and would not follow BeeHaw if it where to defederate. The reason I chose and have stayed on BeeHaw is that ultimately it was my choice to use this instance and follow the rules, defederation would not allow me the freedom to be anywhere but on BeeHaw, and that sounds like the walled garden that I left behind. And those platforms end up hurting people allot. I would hate for BeeHaw to end up like it, and would way less be there to see it happen.

TLDR: I want the freedom to chose the rules I want to abide by and would not support this. And would migrate to another instance if this where to go forward.

I joined because its federated and the people who run it. If beehaw defederates ill go somewhere else, albeit sadly.

Raddle.me is a good example. Because its not federated i just never go despite it being a fine community. Its not big enough to be its own thing worth visiting outside of it being federated content.

It would be sad. There’s great communities and members in beehaw and they make great contributions to the fediverse. What would be the reason to leave? What goals does beehaw have that are limited by Lemmy?

Please do. But don't, like, go somewhere else. Don't post up on some other website or erect a brand new website to house you. Just stop being here.

Well it sounds like a shittier version of Reddit.

Which is hard to do so congrats?

I don't see how the idea of being a safe space is compatible with being federated because the biggest opposition to safe spaces is the average person. Being federated with the average internet person is going to keep it from being a safe space, so federation is in direct opposition to your goal.

That isn't saying the goal of beehaw is wrong, just that the goal is not compatible with the average person.

Good luck out there, whatever path is chosen.

I am a kbin user and I like to see the opinions expressed by beehaw users.

I hope you decide to stick around ❤️

After catching up on this issue some more, (since you already defederated my instance) I can’t help but think about the whole pc principal season of South Park with all the mentions of safe space. https://youtu.be/sXQkXXBqj_U

With that said, yes ppl are toxic here for sure. Way too much negativity.

If you’re eventually going to leave anyway the fewer users you take with you the better for lemmy and the fediverse. Going now would be less damaging in the long run to those vs growing more users and then leaving.

Do you have a plan for recruiting new users? Lemmy already struggles there and it's one of the bigger platforms. If we move even further from the mainstream, I'm afraid we'd slowly wither away as people leave and aren't replaced.

I joined beehaw during the rexodus because it seemed like a good community and a good part of the fediverse. I started contributing monthly to keep the instance going.

I tend to browse All more than Local. If beehaw does defederate, I would likely find a new instance and contribute there instead. I don't mean this to sound threatening, but I'm not going to give money to something I don't use.

Sad, but your choice will be completely understandable, I wish #beehaw success anyways, I had mostly positive experience with it users.

When I first heard of beehaw I had really high hopes and was genuinely excited about the idea of a safe space for marginalised people, but when I saw this being framed as "be nice" without exception or nuance a bunch of red flags started waving, to paraphrase - "you can't be nice to everyone, because being nice to certain people is inherently cruel to others", and I was soon proven right in my concerns, with sprinkles on top - beehaw is a typical liberal (not leftist) space, where criticism of the status quo or swearing at bigots and bootlickers is seen as "not nice", but "polite" bigotry or even genocide denial are a-ok (those being the tankie-sympathising sprinkles I was referring to)..

Good luck to you I guess, but having already blocked your domain, you won't be missed, not by me anyway. ¯\(ツ)/¯

Never really tapped into beehaw because i am on lemmy.world, but seeing people from other instances say that you had some good content, i'd say stay and refederate with lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works.

What is really so bad that you want to leave?

Here's some feedback:

Ban all your users, delete your website then delete your accounts.

You're all rot on the vine and the best thing you can do is prune yourselves and everyone around you.

I'm subscribed to a number of beehaw communities, so it would be a loss for me.

I have little experience with them. Due to them defederated from lemmy.world. But it still will suck if Beehaw left the Fediverse. Because it's one less place to go to on the Fediverse.

Unsurprised.

Please don't leave Fediverse. I am not a beehaw user but do want to interact with beehaw and I think the only way to do it is by fediverse.

I would be bummed. I go on the tech and science communities pretty often.

I suggest you ask on a different less drama-y instance, in addition to this post.

I enjoy some of the threads from Beehaw that show up in my feed, and the ~5 of us on this instance participate there regularly. We like it.

However if you defederated us or switched off Lemmy, we wouldn’t follow. You are a valued part of the greater Lemmy soup but no one instance defines it.

Is there a reason we're asking on Lemmy.ml though?

I'm not a Beehawizen but I've only had positive interactions. I'd check in if you moved the community off of lemmy, but I think the fediverse would be the poorer for it.

Not a fan of any of the idealistic instances and beehaw is not an exception. If there was some good communities then someone is just going to recreate those on a different instance.

I'd be sad to see you leave, since you have great content. I'm curious what the downsides are and if they can be resolved without leaving the fediverse.

Personally I feel like I use my beehaw mostly to interact with federation, but in part because scrolling through local I run out of posts. Sometimes I'm conversational, sometimes I'm not and just want content.

I do like that Beehaw is somewhat walled off though. My experience being on Kbin and Beehaw has been great with lots of poignant conversations. I recently created a slrpnk.net after some of these talks made me want to have a backup made just in case, plus it's nice to see a different side of the fediverse.

Well, it's federated with lemmy.world and I have found that 9/10 comments are bad takes, basic/shortsighted, and aren't really responsive to actual discussion. Every once in a while there's someone who speaks out against the absurdity but it feels so few in far between. I actually find it difficult to read through comments because it is disheartening to read people even of this sort of community defending corporate actions and completely ignoring any discussion about it. I'm not even talking about "this isn't my opinion and I don't want to read it" - I love discussion it's why I'm here.

In part it's why I'm against the threads federation if only because the flood of content seems so much more meaningless. I like that when I am looking through Microblogs on KBin (I think it's the right name - the ability to see mastodon posts) it's people and their hobbies and conversational questions - or just art with various themes. From what I've been promoted about Threads on Instagram it's not like that at all. I know it's less of an issue for lemmy but is it not the principle?

All this to say - if I don't have to do anything on my end, I'll likely continue using it as it is and it realistically won't affect me too much outside of scope as I use multiple fediverse accounts already anyway. If it comes to be that I migrate or recreate an account I'll probably stick around but I do definitely interact primarily with federation first I think.

I'm not sure what baehaw is. I don't really)l care? So it if you want to or don't.

It would be a big loss for the fediverse, but if that's what OG Beehaw users want, I don't necessarily feel like we should have a say

I’d make an account on a different server.

You should never have been on lemmy according to your stated goals of a 'safe' closed community. Your actions during the reddit exodus while you were still a big part of the lemmyverse (especially regarding communities) certainly did not do the rest of lemmy any good. Not that I think you care.

It's better for lemmy if you leave, it's better for your goals to leave so just do it.

Beehaw is my favourite instance, if it left I would stay with it but and also use a different instance to use Lemmy.

I would worry that Beehaw couldn't sustain itself outside of federation though, it needs to be either bigger or fill more of a niche and it doesn't do either. I would give it some time to grow more first if it were up to me.

I mean if you want to know how it would effect me it wouldn't. Posts from beehaw don't even come up, flooded out by more active communities, unless I go directly to the beehaw comms. I functionally use it as a seperate website anyways now, if I ever feel like checking it.

I don't really understand your overall goal talk tho. You want to be nice in an intentionally vague way, but you feel like federation is somehow limiting you from achieving this vague state of niceness... Is it just moderation difficulties (not to downplay them) or is something else about leaving the fediverse door open problematic to being nice?

To be blunt the solution to your problems seems to me the same as every single other time beehaw federation is talked about: the community you want to achieve will require many more moderators than a typical community of equivalent size, they will need specialized mod tools, they will need to be high quality skilled highly vetted mods, and you will need exponentially more of them the more users appear on beehaw. Federation doesn't directly stop you from doing any of that, but it does lead to faster growth, which leads to too much work if you aren't constantly adding moderators to match growth.

You should be asking yourself how big you want beehaw to be, and how big of a beehaw you think can be achieved at all.

Sorry I didn't mean to be this rambly when I started writing ignore it if you want

I follow two beehaw communities and they are both duplicates on other servers but with slightly different content.. I wouldn't even notice.

I'd be sad, there are many great communities and contributors there, and I'd hate to see it go away :(

Maybe some limited federation with instances you consider responsive enough when an issue arise?

With your abuse of defederation and the unability to create our own communities I don't care that you leave. Although lemmy.world abuse it too, at least there is a ton of communities that I could join

I would not like it.

I understand the issues for the people running Beehaw and they are totally real and understandable. That being said you have to appreciate that Beehaw is setting an example as one of the most popular instances on the Fediverse. What y'all are doing is not just limited to what you directly control but is also influencing this new and developing sphere that is the Fediverse. I understand that some people are resentful of how Beehaw enforces the rules of its own community, and I understand how a barrage of that can be extremely demotivating and tiresome. I have also heard about the absolutely despicable content that some mods have had to deal with which is extremely traumatizing which ideally shouldn't have to be experienced by anyone. I would understand anyone who would want to never have to deal with that again since that would probably be my reaction.

In terms of ideas, I really appreciate that Beehaw is making a firm stand in the interest of free expression without being bogged down by prejudice and economic interests. The success of Beehaw compared to other instances demonstrates that the project y'all are working on is desired not only by Beehaw denizens such as myself but also those from general instances. This is despite what I assume is a barrage of negativity, complaints, trolling, and legitimately criminal behavior by those who do not support the kind of place which Beehaw is. I know it's a big and unfair ask to want you guys to continue experiencing the things that cause you to want to make you abandon the fediverse, and honestly I wouldn't blame you if you do, but it is very clear to me that the existence of Beehaw as it is is a huge draw to the fediverse and is establishing norms which can't be accommodated outside of what we have here. Reddit sure as hell can't offer what I've been experiencing on the fediverse, and I think that Beehaw is a huge reason for why that is.

the only thing of substance are links to your websites and discord

Ah okay so this is what this is about. Very creative way to peddle your shit.

I already can't see beehaw users, maybe when you finally defederate from everyone some will rejoin the fediverse proper.

People say that the point of activity pub is federation but to me that also means voluntary federation. The possibility of federation. What I dream for it is an option to opt-in instead of opt-out. You should be able to pick "opt-out" if you want a big, connected place. You can have your cake and eat it too by also keeping an account in a big instance of your choice. Most apps let you switch accounts with a tap or two.

We don't all want to be thrown into the world all the time; complete federation just makes it a safe space for majority populations and marginalizes minorities by default. No, I'm not saying you're all evil and exclude people on purpose, it just happens. It happens to me too.

Some of you seem to think that marginalized people are too soft and want a safe space, but you fail to notice that largely, you also have a safe space for yourself, it's just that you probably belong to the default in many areas (I am sighted and most of the internet is made for sighted people).

I grew up in a small forum; people should be able to choose to keep things small, and open in a controlled way. Because that's the beauty of activity pub, you can still federate with others!

I understand the very practical problem of lack of moderation tools and to me that's pretty much the only reason to leave, for now. Maybe come back if it gets better?

Let me start by saying that if Beehaw would be missed for all of us, but I doubt people would move with it if it left ActivePub. That being said I’d recommend sticking with Lemmy, sure it doesn’t have all the features yet — but it’s still young (and is still growing).

Sucks that you're getting shit for this. You do you, and you'll do good whatever you decide because this is the whole point of it all - freedom to choose.

The fediverse defederates servers as a means of limiting the influence and reach of their content and users. This just sounds like admins contemplating self inflicted injury.

Don't care, do whatever you like.

I would regret it, Beehaw has nice communities

I already have another account I only use on beehaw, so I wouldn't mind a compkete defederation or software change. Safer/nicer spaces are really hard to maintain without moderation control, and lemmy clearly isn't there yet and might not be there for some time. If staying federated/on lemmy means beehaw administration/moderation ends up burnt out, I feel like it's the right move to move.

As a personnal aside, the only thing that would prevent me from staying on beehaw is if you chose a closed-source platform (eg discord).

Anyway, thanks for the things you do and the way you do them !

yea just keep moving around until you don't have users anymore

Well my small instance is still federated, but the other NZ instance defederated after an 'issue'

I think in the last 2 or so months, the interaction between Beehaw and the main (other) lemmy instances has been less abrasive than it was during the big exodus.

I feel that you leaving now may limit the further growth of the fediverse, but if it is the right thing to do for your users than that is up to you and your users

I don't know beehaw, and in general have a pretty bad image of it. Like a bunch of people who want to play together and don't want to federate with anyone, and when you do you it's to troll. So indeed, you're already mostly out of the fediverse.

No idea which kind of content we'd be missing, but beside the Drama about Some instance is leaving the fediverse it won't change anything for most of us.

I always got death-cult vibes from beehaw. I expected their flame-out to be a lot more dramatig than this, though.

I like some communities that beehaw hosts such as music.
Other than that: The more the merrier?

I don't think lemm.ee is federating correctly, but I'll give my take here if some one can sees it.

Beehaw will go the way of every other reddit alternatives, because the existing community is not enough to sustain the critical mass of activity needed. In fact, with the current instance policy, Beehaw is struggling to sustain itself as is with federation, which will only get worse if you defederate.

I'm not sure why Beehaw refuse to use Lemmy's white-list federation feature and selectively pick and choose who to federate with instead of going full scorched earth.

It's ultimately up to the admins at Beehaw to make this choice, but I would like to say, grass is not always greener on the other side, defederation will harm Beehaw more than it helps.

blahaj and beehaw are my two favourite places on the internet so id definitely miss y'all ❤️

I would tell them "don't let the door hit you in the way out."

Reading through the lemmy.world responses is just disheartening.

TLDR don’t want you to leave.

I would be sad, but I'd understand; and I would be grateful to all of the admins that made Beehaw possible on Lemmy; and hope Ai saw you all somewhere else out there on the web.

Didn't you defederate from a lot of instances anyways? And recreate every major community to have yet another copy talking about the same subject and splitting the readership/people?

If I were you, I'd pull the plug and do it properly. All I've seen is beehaw causing confusion with (new) users on other instances and I alone have explained like 5 times why people can't see some posts or their posts can't be seen by other people because of defereration and that it's a complicated 3-way triangle how Lemmy handles that (with the originating instance of the community, the home instance of the user and the instance the other user is on.) And you're confusing your own users by letting them believe they're on the fediverse and part of Lemmy, while they're in fact part of maybe 10% of the Fediverse. It adds to the confusion that every community exists twice or more times and users have to handle that. Your own admins complain a lot. And it causes you pain.

I think you were better off with a discord server or a closed forum. And it'd spare you and everyone being constantly annoyed with each other.

In theory connecting people is always a good thing. But I don't see how that would work out here.

I think you have to do what's best for your people. You have a very particular set of goals with Beehaw, and if the fediverse isn't the right place for that then it's fine to move on. I'll be curious to see what you all decide to do, and, if you do leave, what you end up creating!

Leave already

I find that one of the drawbacks to this federated landscape is knowing when to make a new account and where. There. Are. So. Many. Options.

If Lemmy and AP are so limiting why not be part of its development and growth? Development doesn’t seem to happen fast on these platforms, and for good reason. “Move fast and break stuff” is a terrible mantra in my opinion, and I’m glad for things moving more slowly.

In either case I have enjoyed the discussions over there and it would be a shame to see it defederate. Best of luck to you and the team either way.

Can you be more specific about the downsides?

I joined this instance because I was looking for a lemmy instance and to be on the fediverse. I mean I can still do that on a different instance, so if that's the way you decide to go it isn't the end of the world.

I guess the core group has its motivations that are not necessarily shared by every user, although presumably our ideals are aligned. This is the first I'm hearing that the association with Lemmy is incidental.

Whether I'd stick around or not, I'm not sure. One thing I like about the fediverse is that it presents a real shot at being a free-culture alternative to corporate social media, and I think losing federation with one of the most successful instances would be a loss for that movement.

If you do defederate, would you continue to use Lemmy as the software for the community? Being able to use the mobile apps is convenient and honestly that's probably the thing that has me logging in as much as I do.

Beehaw is my favorite lemmy instance, its actually the only one with meaningful discussions and lively community. I'm grateful for your time and commitment towards a place where people are nice and have meaningful discussions. You the admins do all the work, you have to make the call. I will come with you but I'm not certain how it will go. If there are easy to use mobile apps and notifications I'll be more likely to get notified about new content. I just haven't seen any old school boards that tick all those boxes. So, if I have a vote (which I believe I dont) I vote to stay and rather help you improve the admin tools.

You're smaller and weaker defederated. The fact that you chose to post this on lemmy.ml rather than beehaw clearly proves that.

I'm not sure I understand where you guys are planning to be moving on to- just a website? I will miss beehaw for sure, I appreciate the technology and gaming communities there which I follow. I've been blissfully oblivious to any toxicity either from beehaw or towards beehaw. But you must do what your instance prefers first and foremost.

You pop in here and ask the community if we would be sad if you left? You're either phishing for a reason to leave by garnishing negative sentiment, further driving your "parishioners" to WANT defederation, or you are wanting to tarnish Lemmy as a platform, or both. Various sects of Christianity do this manipulative shit all the time. They force their flock to spread the word knowing full well they will face negativity -- no one likes to be solicited to -- and come crying to the church about their treatment, where the church comforts them and reinforces why only they can provide safety and warmth. It's cult tactics.

You don't want to know if you should defederate from the rest of us, you want to spread doubt in the platform and wall yourselves off to the world that doesn't conform to your views. You talk about negative aspects of Lemmy without offering any specifics and/or providing solutions to things you find problematic. To me, that's a red flag for someone wanting attention for a decision they already made. There's a sarcastic reply to that, I believe it's "bye Felicia."

As a relatively new Beehaw user (I deliberately waited for the reddit exodus to subside before applying), I understand the reasoning. The "default" open nature of ActivityPub creates moderation challenges for a "well tended garden" - much more so than a more controlled space. I also understand the software (lemmy) itself is somewhat problematical, both politically and from technical/maintenance perspective.

I wouldn't be against moving - and I'd follow. The Beehaw groups are active and contain lot of good quality discussions, I'd assume that wouldn't change outside fediverse.

I'd be still free to access the fediverse through other kbin/lemmy instances if I wanted to participate and I wouldn't close my Mastodon account just because Beehaw decided to move somewhere else, so I wouldn't personally lose very much - and I would stand to gain a "safe haven" - a more closed discussion forum I could always turn to when the noise of the outside world gets to be too much.

For the sake of everyone moderating Beehaw and our communities, I'd completely understand. Fediverse is a very rowdy bar and as volunteer bartenders, it must be somewhat tiresome for you.

In the long term I'd worry about building a too small echo chamber without the required diversity for Quality Discussions and I'd also worry about "hiding" - it would be harder for fellow disenfranchised cretins to find us - and perhaps we'd lose good members. I know the Beehaw strategy priority is not centered around growth, but nevertheless, some kind of strategy would have to be devised to monitoring the long term health and diversity of the community.

Defederate from .world and aaaaallllll of your problems will go away. EDIT: you already did and that wasn't enough. Well time to pull the plug.

The fact that you talk about users as "seeking refuge" means you think of your instance as much more than a social media platform.

So I would say that yes, maybe Lemmy is not what you actually need. It's designed to federate discussions between everyone using it, and that's a poor fit for a refugee center (so to speak).

At least two communities I use are on Beehaw, but I wouldn't be super affected.

It'd be a shame imo but end of the day your choice.

Indifferent

Do what you need to do, but it'll mean less traffic on overall - meaning people who are actively pro-ActivityPub will be switching and using other accounts more. I would probably be out shopping for a different node at that point. But I also fully understand the reasons why one would want to defederate.

I disagree with you guys for a lot of reasons.

Diversity of thought and, well, your silly shit are important. No. I wouldn't do what you do myself. Yes. You should stay. Send a link and I'll donate.

The fediverse needs testing of both technical and social areas.

Late Reply: This is going to sound harsh but it's true. I wouldn't miss it. If Beehaw disappeared tomorrow I probably wouldn't even notice, and I'm sure that would be the case for many other people here. The problem is that because Beehaw has defederated so aggressively from the largest instances and shut its doors to new users, and people just moved on, or didn't notice or care. I spent most of my first days on Lemmy.world and consequently didn't see a majority of the content from Beehaw, but I did see many upset users who had to Migrate from Beehaw due to the defederations since most of the content and communities they wanted access to wasn't available to them on Beehaw.

Since Beehaw didn't (and still doesn't) have community creation enabled it never really had niche communities like other instances did, it is rather forgettable because of that, what most people will remember it for though is the defederations and having to migrate accounts to not be cut off from the rest of the fediverse.

Don't let the doorknob hit you in the ass on the way out.

Who gives a fuck what others think, they have the power to block communities/instances if they want. No need to make that choice for them. I like the content, and if I didn't then it's as simple as just blocking the domain. That's the nice thing about the fedi.

I've always felt being on the fediverse was antithetical to Beehaw's mission. It wants to bee a kind, safe place for disenfranchised users, but it feels like less of a tight knit community when it is federated.

The best example I can think of is like a high-school club/group. Being on the fediverse is like your group claiming a table in a crowded lunch room. Yes you've got your group together where you can talk amongst yourselves, but everything you say can be heard by everyone else in the room and likewise their conversations are going to butt in whether you like it or not. An unfederated or semi-private forum is more like getting an unused classroom for your group to meet in. It's still open for anyone to join as long as they don't create trouble, but having your own room makes the conversation feel more personal/intimate and people are more likely to open up about personal stuff they wouldn't want to yell out in the lunch room.

Probably a poor analogy, and I may be misunderstanding their goal, but that's my 2 cents.

I can't give feedback without specifics on what exactly you feel the downsides are of federating.

I will say this: in my six months on kbin and Lemmy, I have seen more assumption of good faith in interactions, and I do believe Beehaw's users has been a significant part of that. It would be a negative for the Fediverse if Beehaw defederated. That said, the users are of course under no obligation to provide the emotional labor to make those kinds of efforts.

If the reason is because your mods are saying they can't handle the workload, I get it. I think that's a 100% valid reason for defederating, whether or not it's temporary as Lemmy's moderation support matures. It's already a challenging assignment, even without a stricter ethos like Beehaw's in place. In general, there are a lot of new mods across Lemmy, and it's a significant vulnerability, in my opinion. The next big surge of users, whether from Reddit imploding again or something else like a major publication's story on Lemmy going viral, won't be about creating more buckets for users like it was this past summer. It will stress the buckets themselves, and some of the mods holding those communities together won't be ready for it.

I don’t give a single nacho

I have broadly enjoyed interacting with content and users from beehaw, but have also had friction with their moderation style at times. However that is is the point of the fediverse, my home account is not on beehaw, I don’t have to agree, I just have to play nice in the occasional thread.

Overall the federation adds content,variety, and texture to the fediverse and it’d be a shame to lose it